Socialism and Capitalism: Both Dead In The Water?

[Dashing Bob S]

I'm not talking about the laudable aspirations towards equality and a brotherhood/sisterhood of man and woman, nor am I referring to individuals having the freedom to advance and better themselves without being told what to do.

I specifically mean being directed by the state in the micromanagement of our lives and people being exploited by the power of multinational capital in the global marketplace.

How do we reconcile the growing need for a powerful central authority to tackle the big issues of the day (overpopulation, depreciation of finite world resources) and guarantee personal freedom from that authority?

[easty]

By overpopulation I'm not sure if you mean nationally, as in an actual genuine cap on all immigration to this country, or on a global scale? On a global scale theres nothing that can be done, you can't stop people having children.

As for the depreciation of the finite resources, I'm afraid that while we (we being the human race) are more than capable of finding alternatives, we won't properly do so until our hand is forced.

[Big Ed]

I'm not talking about the laudable aspirations towards equality and a brotherhood/sisterhood of man and woman, nor am I referring to individuals having the freedom to advance and better themselves without being told what to do.

I specifically mean being directed by the state in the micromanagement of our lives and people being exploited by the power of multinational capital in the global marketplace.

How do we reconcile the growing need for a powerful central authority to tackle the big issues of the day (overpopulation, depreciation of finite world resources) and guarantee personal freedom from that authority?

It is my opinion that the forces that drive the economic policies, that in turn dominate the political agenda of Governments, are as undemocratic and corrupt as you could care to imagine.
Multinational companies, with the aid of the finest corporate lawyers and a multi billion dollar lobbying industry, now dictate the policies of almost all of the political parties, whether in power or opposition, in the developed world.
These companies are compelled to act in their own best interests and that means that if Government policy gets in the way, they will go out of their way to have it changed.
Only strong legislation in the national interest and Government Watchdogs with teeth can recreate the powerful authority that you speak off.

[RyeSloan]

It is my opinion that the forces that drive the economic policies, that in turn dominate the political agenda of Governments, are as undemocratic and corrupt as you could care to imagine.
Multinational companies, with the aid of the finest corporate lawyers and a multi billion dollar lobbying industry, now dictate the policies of almost all of the political parties, whether in power or opposition, in the developed world.
These companies are compelled to act in their own best interests and that means that if Government policy gets in the way, they will go out of their way to have it changed.
Only strong legislation in the national interest and Government Watchdogs with teeth can recreate the powerful authority that you speak off.

Quite a broad debate this one!!

Personally I think that only complete demonetisation of the world's economies along with the total removal of all personal wants with a top down approach to meeting a pre-defined and narrow set of needs is the only solution to the troubles of the world!! :devil: :wink:

[IndieHibby]

SiMar - you playing Devil's Advocate by any chance?

[heretoday]

The simple act of trading one commodity or service for another has got completely out of hand.

It's when that blooming "money" thing started up that everything went wrong.

[IndieHibby]

Jobs provide the means by which people satisfy every need they have. Multi nationals provide people with those jobs.

That is not to say, however, that our economic system flawless. I've yet to see evidence of an alternative, though.

Those who rail against capitalism/corporate behaviour/modernity would go a long way to providing their gripes with credibility if they could clearly articulate these alternatives.

Until this happens, they're no better than your local pub-bore.

Gauntlet thrown!

[Big Ed]

Quite a broad debate this one!!

Personally I think that only complete demonetisation of the world's economies along with the total removal of all personal wants with a top down approach to meeting a pre-defined and narrow set of needs is the only solution to the troubles of the world!! :devil: :wink:

Well I must admit; I didn't expect to see you post that :wink:

[Big Ed]

Jobs provide the means by which people satisfy every need they have. Multi nationals provide people with those jobs.

That is not to say, however, that our economic system flawless. I've yet to see evidence of an alternative, though.

Those who rail against capitalism/corporate behaviour/modernity would go a long way to providing their gripes with credibility if they could clearly articulate these alternatives.

Until this happens, they're no better than your local pub-bore.

Gauntlet thrown!

Since it was me who mentioned Multi Nationals; I'll guess I'm the one this is aimed at.
The last thing I want to do is bore you but I haven't railed against Capitalism or Modernity at all in my thread.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my alternative, but if you look again you'll see that I did provide one: it's the last line.

[Dashing Bob S]

I was watching a televsion debate in the USA and it was depressing, politiicians coming ot with the same tired cliches, Yank versions of the sort of Daily Mail fear-driven stuff and its painfully earnest, hand-wringing alternatives that are discussed with mind-numbing regularity over here.

Also, reading between the lines, you see that they don't have a clue what to do.

It struck me that there are some things going on, both left and right, governmental and private, that are breaking the mold.

Left- Chavez. Admitted that oil is an extinct energy source, just wants to get rid of it asap and spend every penny possible on sanitation, education, infrastructure etc, no private profit going out oof he country.

Right- The Bill Gates foundation. Gates and Warren Buffet making scientific entrepreneurs rich and famous if they invent 'breakthrough technology' like affordable anti AIDS vacines etc. Using greed/fame motivation for the common good.

To try and look at these things in a purely value-free way, without spouting attendant guff about Communism and Capitalist exploitation seems to me worthwhile.

[Big Ed]

I was watching a televsion debate in the USA and it was depressing, politiicians coming ot with the same tired cliches, Yank versions of the sort of Daily Mail fear-driven stuff and its painfully earnest, hand-wringing alternatives that are discussed with mind-numbing regularity over here.

Also, reading between the lines, you see that they don't have a clue what to do.

It struck me that there are some things going on, both left and right, governmental and private, that are breaking the mold.

Left- Chavez. Admitted that oil is an extinct energy source, just wants to get rid of it asap and spend every penny possible on sanitation, education, infrastructure etc, no private profit going out oof he country.

Right- The Bill Gates foundation. Gates and Warren Buffet making scientific entrepreneurs rich and famous if they invent 'breakthrough technology' like affordable anti AIDS vacines etc. Using greed/fame motivation for the common good.

To try and look at these things in a purely value-free way, without spouting attendant guff about Communism and Capitalist exploitation seems to me worthwhile.

I agree with almost all of your post. The only thing that strikes me about Chavez and the Bill Gates Foundation is that they both have enormous financial resources at their disposal, which puts them in a position that they can look at things in the value free way that you have suggested. Not many people have that luxury and most of those who do choose not to spend it that way (which of course they are perfectly entitiled to do).

[RyeSloan]

SiMar - you playing Devil's Advocate by any chance?


Well I must admit; I didn't expect to see you post that :wink:


I was simply pointing out that Socilaism was not dead, it's just never been tried yet. :greengrin :greengrin

[Green Mikey]

I was watching a televsion debate in the USA and it was depressing, politiicians coming ot with the same tired cliches, Yank versions of the sort of Daily Mail fear-driven stuff and its painfully earnest, hand-wringing alternatives that are discussed with mind-numbing regularity over here.

Also, reading between the lines, you see that they don't have a clue what to do.

It struck me that there are some things going on, both left and right, governmental and private, that are breaking the mold.

Left- Chavez. Admitted that oil is an extinct energy source, just wants to get rid of it asap and spend every penny possible on sanitation, education, infrastructure etc, no private profit going out oof he country.

Right- The Bill Gates foundation. Gates and Warren Buffet making scientific entrepreneurs rich and famous if they invent 'breakthrough technology' like affordable anti AIDS vacines etc. Using greed/fame motivation for the common good.

To try and look at these things in a purely value-free way, without spouting attendant guff about Communism and Capitalist exploitation seems to me worthwhile.

Chavez isn't a good example of breaking the mold, he has made a mess of Venezuala in the last few years.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was simply pointing out that Socilaism was not dead, it's just never been tried yet. :greengrin :greengrin

What about a Monarchy or a good old fashioned Dictatorship? Did we really give those systems a real chance?

[HibeeEmma]

What about a Monarchy or a good old fashioned Dictatorship? Did we really give those systems a real chance?

But to some extent do we not have a type of dictatorship under capitalism? We have so called market forces dominating our economy which is determined by those who control the banks. (AKA new world order)

I have been watching too many conspiracy documentaries...

[RyeSloan]

But to some extent do we not have a type of dictatorship under capitalism? We have so called market forces dominating our economy which is determined by those who control the banks. (AKA new world order)

I have been watching too many conspiracy documentaries...

Hee hee I liked these conspiracies...they always made it sound like there was some sort of sneaky, all controlling cartel manipulating everything from the top. If anything proved that such a cartel simply wouldn't be able to control the beast of the 'free market' the banking crisis did!!!

[Leicester Fan]

On our forum we have debates about Monster Munch.

[Dashing Bob S]

I agree with almost all of your post. The only thing that strikes me about Chavez and the Bill Gates Foundation is that they both have enormous financial resources at their disposal, which puts them in a position that they can look at things in the value free way that you have suggested. Not many people have that luxury and most of those who do choose not to spend it that way (which of course they are perfectly entitiled to do).

Yes, that's absolutely correct, fortune has favoured both men to the extent that they and their cohorts can spend vast amounts of money in different ways on things they feel will benefit others. (I'm not saying either are saints - wouldn't go down that route for a second, only that they have this sense of mission.)

They are both quite instrumental in showing the flaws of socialism and capitalism. Advocates of pure capitalism and the free market society talk as if its in some way co-terminus to Adam Smith's pin factory, wheras Gates experience, starting of with wealth, wielding dominant corporate power and instituting barrier to market entry to others, through the use of the corrupt and inequitous lobby system, is typical of the way this system now operates. Wheras Chavez could never be considered a socialist by any rigourous Marxist analyst. (No one could be, which renders it ultimately self-defeating in my book.)

[Springbank]

the way of the next few years might well be the community organisation... community land trusts and so on are an awkward but exciting marriage of far left and far right values (which are never as far apart as people ever think)

smaller state but greater personal responsibility on the one hand, but a very egalitarian and benign approach at the same time. It's just one example, but this looks like the shape of things.

in my view socialism was doomed quicker because it was perceived as a set of principles. and a pragmatist will always outlive a point of principle.

[Bookkeeper]

If you have Tony Blair as the face of socialism and David Cameron as the face of capitalism, then yes, they should both be dead in the water.

[Dashing Bob S]

If you have Tony Blair as the face of socialism and David Cameron as the face of capitalism, then yes, they should both be dead in the water.

Can't see the difference between the two. Perhaps the ubiquitous face of obsequious smarmy slime knows no boundaries.