French Back Burka Ban

[Dinkydoo]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1294418/France-MPs-burka-ban-ONE-votes-measure-act-walking-coffins.html

I understand the logic behind putting a ban on men forcing women to wear the Burka but banning it altogether doesn't really make much sense. :confused:

Surley people should be allowed to wear what they want (as long as they aren't as exposed as the Naked Rambler :faf:).

This I would imagine will cause a bit of an uproar from Muslims living in France who are against the move (although oddly enough it appears as though many are in favour of it).

Does this mean that Muslim's living in France no longer have the same human rights as the rest of the world. :rolleyes:


Or have I simply missed the point spectactularly as per usual :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1294418/France-MPs-burka-ban-ONE-votes-measure-act-walking-coffins.html

I understand the logic behind putting a ban on men forcing women to wear the Burka but banning it altogether doesn't really make much sense. :confused:

Surley people should be allowed to wear what they want (as long as they aren't as exposed as the Naked Rambler :faf:).

This I would imagine will cause a bit of an uproar from Muslims living in France who are against the move (although oddly enough it appears as though many are in favour of it).

Does this mean that Muslim's living in France no longer have the same human rights as the rest of the world. :rolleyes:


Or have I simply missed the point spectactularly as per usual :wink:

I have been thinking a lot about this, and I too am not sure if I am missing the point. Three things come to mind:-

1. it is being rationalised as an attempt to undermine the alleged oppression of women inherent in fundamental Islam. I would have thought that the proposed law would have little effect on such oppression. Men who insist on their wives wearing the burqa will simply say "well, you're staying at home then. No problem." In other words, further eroding the freedom of such women.

2. in the legislation, there is no mention of Islam, or the burqa. Such wording would, probably, be seen as discriminatory. It talks about the "hiding of one's face in public". In other words, by the letter of the law, people such as.... motorcyclists with full face-helmets.... skiers on the mountains.... kids who are wrapped up by their parents in the winter.... are all guilty of breaking the law.

3. some women CHOOSE to wear the burqa. Surely there should be a place for them?

I am always wary of legislation trying to force a social agenda, and remain to be convinced about this one. There are surely better ways of encouraging better attitudes towards women.

That said, if anyone has thought about this more deeply than I, please feel free to shoot me down...

[Pretty Boy]

I have been thinking a lot about this, and I too am not sure if I am missing the point. Three things come to mind:-

1. it is being rationalised as an attempt to undermine the alleged oppression of women inherent in fundamental Islam. I would have thought that the proposed law would have little effect on such oppression. Men who insist on their wives wearing the burqa will simply say "well, you're staying at home then. No problem." In other words, further eroding the freedom of such women.

2. in the legislation, there is no mention of Islam, or the burqa. Such wording would, probably, be seen as discriminatory. It talks about the "hiding of one's face in public". In other words, by the letter of the law, people such as.... motorcyclists with full face-helmets.... skiers on the mountains.... kids who are wrapped up by their parents in the winter.... are all guilty of breaking the law.

3. some women CHOOSE to wear the burqa. Surely there should be a place for them?

I am always wary of legislation trying to force a social agenda, and remain to be convinced about this one. There are surely better ways of encouraging better attitudes towards women.

That said, if anyone has thought about this more deeply than I, please feel free to shoot me down...

The part in bold was what initially popped into my head when i read about this. I'm not overly clued up on the subject so would be happy for someone who knows a bit more to enlighten me but surely if someone makes a free choice to wear a burqa then not being allowed to do so is a clear breach of basic human rights?

[CropleyWasGod]

The part in bold was what initially popped into my head when i read about this. I'm not overly clued up on the subject so would be happy for someone who knows a bit more to enlighten me but surely if someone makes a free choice to wear a burqa then not being allowed to do so is a clear breach of basic human rights?

I think there is an assumption that a woman who wears the veil must be told to by her husband. That is where the legislation starts from.

Whether that is a reasonable assumption or not is probably where you and I struggle. France has an enormous Muslim population, in all its diverse forms, and that is something that we in the UK will find hard to envisage.

In diversity and ethnic terms, our culture is very different to France. That is why I hesitate to have an absolute view on this. Maybe it's just not my place to criticise.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think there is an assumption that a woman who wears the veil must be told to by her husband. That is where the legislation starts from.

Whether that is a reasonable assumption or not is probably where you and I struggle. France has an enormous Muslim population, in all its diverse forms, and that is something that we in the UK will find hard to envisage.

In diversity and ethnic terms, our culture is very different to France. That is why I hesitate to have an absolute view on this. Maybe it's just not my place to criticise.

I agree with the poster above that legislating to stop a social problem is dodgy ground, and i would be against such a ban in Scotland/UK but i can see the French point - it is part of French culture and history to be quite militantly secular and so i think they are justified in this.

I do think this is an interesting issue though, because it does seem to sit right at the interface between (controversial and minority) islamic (or perhaps more accurately arabic) values and european values of liberty, women's rights etc. I know people will say X woman chooses to wear it, but that would be like saying a pregnant teenager in Ireland in the 70s 'chose' to give away her child - basically society and close family 'make' them take a certain decision, regardless of their own thoughts.

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree with the poster above that legislating to stop a social problem is dodgy ground, and i would be against such a ban in Scotland/UK but i can see the French point - it is part of French culture and history to be quite militantly secular and so i think they are justified in this.

I do think this is an interesting issue though, because it does seem to sit right at the interface between (controversial and minority) islamic (or perhaps more accurately arabic) values and european values of liberty, women's rights etc. I know people will say X woman chooses to wear it, but that would be like saying a pregnant teenager in Ireland in the 70s 'chose' to give away her child - basically society and close family 'make' them take a certain decision, regardless of their own thoughts.

Yeah, when I said some women "choose" to wear it, I had an argument with myself about it. How much of that "choice" is down to the environment in which they have been brought up? How much of that choice is driven by the teachings of those around them? In simple terms, maybe they "don't know any different"?

[heretoday]

As stated already, a most important element to this is the attitude of the Muslim male who will doubtless say "You're not going out dressed like that" to his womenfolk.

Far from liberating females the French ban could drive them further into the shade.

[CropleyWasGod]

As stated already, a most important element to this is the attitude of the Muslim male who will doubtless say "You're not going out dressed like that" to his womenfolk.

Far from liberating females the French ban could drive them further into the shade.

... or, as has been suggested in the media, drive them into the Courts and let them decide on whether the law is just or now.

[Gus]

fair play to France, there country there rules I say...................:agree:

We can go to some Muslim countries and our women (who are on holiday) cannae wear a bikini (thank good in some occassions) because of rules/religion etc.........

likewise public signs of affection...........BOOM you get locked up

MON THE FRENCH on this one IMO

[Leicester Fan]

I believe it is already illegal in France to wear conspicuously religious wear in govt property. I've been told by Sikhs that you cannot wear a turban on the picture on your driving license in France, meaning that for strict Sikhs it's impossible for them to drive.

Personally I don't like the burka but I'm not into banning things. C'est la vie I suppose.

[Dinkydoo]

I have been thinking a lot about this, and I too am not sure if I am missing the point. Three things come to mind:-

1. it is being rationalised as an attempt to undermine the alleged oppression of women inherent in fundamental Islam. I would have thought that the proposed law would have little effect on such oppression. Men who insist on their wives wearing the burqa will simply say "well, you're staying at home then. No problem." In other words, further eroding the freedom of such women.

I agree. I'd presume that men with the kind of mindset to support laws and beliefs that ultimately make women out to be second class citizens aren't going to suddenly think "Oh well, if it's illegal then I suppose we better take that off then."



2. in the legislation, there is no mention of Islam, or the burqa. Such wording would, probably, be seen as discriminatory. It talks about the "hiding of one's face in public". In other words, by the letter of the law, people such as.... motorcyclists with full face-helmets.... skiers on the mountains.... kids who are wrapped up by their parents in the winter.... are all guilty of breaking the law.


Again, I agree. What about wearing balaclava's (not for the purpose of an armed robbery of course), apart from the fact that they look daft on anyone that isn't 1: participating in some sort of winter sport or 2: under the age of 10 years old, there isn't really any fundamental reason as to why they should be treated differently than a Burqa.......... Unless this is all about being forced to wear an item of clothing - then why not simply ban any adult from having control over what another adult wears?

Instead of banning an item of clothing that is strongly associated with one of the biggest religions in the world.


3. some women CHOOSE to wear the burqa. Surely there should be a place for them?

I am always wary of legislation trying to force a social agenda, and remain to be convinced about this one. There are surely better ways of encouraging better attitudes towards women.

That said, if anyone has thought about this more deeply than I, please feel free to shoot me down...

The "choice" thing is what 'gets' me; the way that this has been approached (IMO) has the potential to really explode and be interperated as some sort of anti-Islamic movement.

Aye, me too - anyone with more insight feel free to shoot down :greengrin

[deeks01]

I agree. I'd presume that men with the kind of mindset to support laws and beliefs that ultimately make women out to be second class citizens aren't going to suddenly think "Oh well, if it's illegal then I suppose we better take that off then."





Again, I agree. What about wearing balaclava's (not for the purpose of an armed robbery of course), apart from the fact that they look daft on anyone that isn't 1: participating in some sort of winter sport or 2: under the age of 10 years old, there isn't really any fundamental reason as to why they should be treated differently than a Burqa.......... Unless this is all about being forced to wear an item of clothing - then why not simply ban any adult from having control over what another adult wears?

Instead of banning an item of clothing that is strongly associated with one of the biggest religions in the world.



The "choice" thing is what 'gets' me; the way that this has been approached (IMO) has the potential to really explode and be interperated as some sort of anti-Islamic movement.

Aye, me too - anyone with more insight feel free to shoot down :greengrin

but surely if the "choice" to wear what you want is a human right then gadgies like the naked rambler are doing nothing wrong , maybe its his "culture" :wink:

seriously though I find this one hard to get my head round as on the one hand it stops the poor treatment of muslim women by fundamentalist muslim men and gives the people of france a sense of having more control over their own culture ( as a previous poster said comparisons can be made between wearing bikinis in muslim countries etc )

however on the other hand its surely violating the rights of those who want to wear it , i know id hate to live in a society where i was told i couldn't wear something i wanted to.

its a tricky one , would need an entire critical essay to go over this thoroughly.

ps - excuse the poor spelling/grammar/punctuation , its only because im posting from my phone lol

[Woody1985]

I found that the strangest thing about this was the overwhelming majority of which it was passed, 334-1, if my memory is correct.

Admittedly, one of my other thoughts was 'when does France get bombed' given that the bruka tends to be associated with extreme Muslims but maybe it's just the government propoganda that has got to me. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I found that the strangest thing about this was the overwhelming majority of which it was passed, 334-1, if my memory is correct.

Admittedly, one of my other thoughts was 'when does France get bombed' given that the bruka tends to be associated with extreme Muslims but maybe it's just the government propoganda that has got to me. :greengrin

.. apparently, it affects "only" about 2,000 women.

[Green Mikey]

fair play to France, there country there rules I say...................:agree:

We can go to some Muslim countries and our women (who are on holiday) cannae wear a bikini (thank good in some occassions) because of rules/religion etc.........

likewise public signs of affection...........BOOM you get locked up

MON THE FRENCH on this one IMO

I think you have contradicted yourself here. Praising France for imposing their rules in their country but condemning the rules of Muslim countries in the same post...

Personally I don't agree with the burka but I don't the ban will change the attitudes of the people who wear it. It may do the opposite and entrench the views of people who support the burka.

[easty]

I think you have contradicted yourself here. Praising France for imposing their rules in their country but condemning the rules of Muslim countries in the same post...

Personally I don't agree with the burka but I don't the ban will change the attitudes of the people who wear it. It may do the opposite and entrench the views of people who support the burka.

He doesnt really contradict himself as he doesn't really condemn the rules of Muslim countries. What he's doing is contrasting the fact that in Muslim countries you can be banned from wearing something (a bikini) in public but it seems to now be accepted as the norm or 'just the way it is..', however people are debating the banning of wearing something (the burka) in France. What's good for the goose and all that.

I'm not saying France are right or wrong to ban the Burka, I'm just really not sure, though time will clearly tell whether it was a good/sensible decision or not. I agree with what Gus said though (though the pedant in me corrected the spelling!!) "their country their rules".

[Gus]

He doesnt really contradict himself as he doesn't really condemn the rules of Muslim countries. What he's doing is contrasting the fact that in Muslim countries you can be banned from wearing something (a bikini) in public but it seems to now be accepted as the norm or 'just the way it is..', however people are debating the banning of wearing something (the burka) in France. What's good for the goose and all that.

I'm not saying France are right or wrong to ban the Burka, I'm just really not sure, though time will clearly tell whether it was a good/sensible decision or not. I agree with what Gus said though (though the pedant in me corrected the spelling!!) "their country their rules".


ha ha an english born i oxford not being able to put the correct spelling :wink:

I think I wouldn't mind the Burka if they blinged it up a wee bit, maybe different colours etc......hemmed at the knee also:greengrin

[hibsdaft]

I believe it is already illegal in France to wear conspicuously religious wear in govt property. I've been told by Sikhs that you cannot wear a turban on the picture on your driving license in France, meaning that for strict Sikhs it's impossible for them to drive.

this is correct, the law came in around five years ago and had the support of the majority of French, and the majority of French muslims too.

its fundamental to understanding that decision, and this latest decision to appreciate the difference between their deeply secular state and ours which is absolutely not.

this law may be just about tolerable in France but wouldn't be here until we separate religion from the state.

the true motive in the case of this Burqa law however is populist posturing and the creating of a distraction by a deeply unpopular President (Sarkozy) rather than addressing any material issue in France today - there are only believed to be a few hundred women in France wearing the Burqa.

[Green Mikey]

He doesnt really contradict himself as he doesn't really condemn the rules of Muslim countries. What he's doing is contrasting the fact that in Muslim countries you can be banned from wearing something (a bikini) in public but it seems to now be accepted as the norm or 'just the way it is..', however people are debating the banning of wearing something (the burka) in France. What's good for the goose and all that.

I'm not saying France are right or wrong to ban the Burka, I'm just really not sure, though time will clearly tell whether it was a good/sensible decision or not. I agree with what Gus said though (though the pedant in me corrected the spelling!!) "their country their rules".

Contradiction was probably the wrong term however I don't agree with any form of tit for tat exchange of draconian rule making between the western and Muslim worlds. I don't think it is a valid justification to say 'they do it so we can too'. Reading a few posts on here and seeing what is on the news I don't think the rules in MUslim countries are accepted as the norm. The couple who were caught kissing in Dubai were front page news, if this was accepted as the norm I would very much doubt that so much attention would be given to the story.

I saw that 70% of French people supported this law and that Sarkozy is doing badly in the polls...this may be one of the biggest factors...

[(((Fergus)))]

Two other countries where the veil is banned (in universities/schools):

Syria
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jV_-6kvuvHLoKhskSm80Smyln5vAD9H253N80

Egypt
(including "Sunni Islam's premier institute of learning" - Al Azhar University in Cairo)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/egypt-top-cleric-bans-veiled-women-from-muslim-schools-1.6599

Here are extracts from their constitutions:

Syria:
Article 3
(1) The religion of the President of the Republic has to be Islam.
(2) Islamic jurisprudence is a main source of legislation.

Egypt:
Article 2
Islam is the Religion of the State. Arabic is its official language, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia).

Of course, both these countries (among other nominally muslim states) are ruled by secular dictatorships and have violently suppressed Islamist movements over the past few decades, the main one being the Muslim Brotherhood.

As for France, perhaps there is a parallel with the Swiss ban on minarets, i.e., it's an attempt to restrict the visual evidence of the Islamisation of those countries in order to placate those who object.

I don't believe for one moment that it has anything to do with women's rights - more likely French men's rights to ogle all women. :wink:

Nor is it anyone's right to dictate what people can and cannot wear, as long as that person is not affecting the security of other people or offending public decency.

[CropleyWasGod]

Two other countries where the veil is banned (in universities/schools):

Syria
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jV_-6kvuvHLoKhskSm80Smyln5vAD9H253N80

Egypt
(including "Sunni Islam's premier institute of learning" - Al Azhar University in Cairo)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/egypt-top-cleric-bans-veiled-women-from-muslim-schools-1.6599

Here are extracts from their constitutions:

Syria:
Article 3
(1) The religion of the President of the Republic has to be Islam.
(2) Islamic jurisprudence is a main source of legislation.

Egypt:
Article 2
Islam is the Religion of the State. Arabic is its official language, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia).

Of course, both these countries (among other nominally muslim states) are ruled by secular dictatorships and have violently suppressed Islamist movements over the past few decades, the main one being the Muslim Brotherhood.

As for France, perhaps there is a parallel with the Swiss ban on minarets, i.e., it's an attempt to restrict the visual evidence of the Islamisation of those countries in order to placate those who object.

I don't believe for one moment that it has anything to do with women's rights - more likely French men's rights to ogle all women. :wink:

Nor is it anyone's right to dictate what people can and cannot wear, as long as that person is not affecting the security of other people or offending public decency.

Having thought about this a lot, and discussed it with many over the past week, I have two theories:-

1. as has been alluded to earlier, it's partly about France's complete commitment to secularism. The fact that there was little opposition to the legislation in the Parliament bears it out.

2. it's also about Sarkozy drumming up support from the right, which is a much more powerful lobby in France than it is here.

[(((Fergus)))]

Having thought about this a lot, and discussed it with many over the past week, I have two theories:-

1. as has been alluded to earlier, it's partly about France's complete commitment to secularism. The fact that there was little opposition to the legislation in the Parliament bears it out.

2. it's also about Sarkozy drumming up support from the right, which is a much more powerful lobby in France than it is here.

I have to say that I'm not 100% convinced by French "laicite". Are there, for example, no church bells in France any more? Surely that is a much more overt expression of religion than someone in a burka?

I do agree more with your second point though: they're trying to keep the peace by hiding one side of the problem.

[Peevemor]

I have to say that I'm not 100% convinced by French "laicite". Are there, for example, no church bells in France any more? Surely that is a much more overt expression of religion than someone in a burka?

I do agree more with your second point though: they're trying to keep the peace by hiding one side of the problem.


Are church bells everywhere not more to do with letting people (working in the fields for example) know the time?

[(((Fergus)))]

Are church bells everywhere not more to do with letting people (working in the fields for example) know the time?

I mean on Sundays, you know, calling the faithful to church. Does this happen in France?

[AgentDaleCooper]

fair play to France, there country there rules I say...................:agree:

We can go to some Muslim countries and our women (who are on holiday) cannae wear a bikini (thank good in some occassions) because of rules/religion etc.........

likewise public signs of affection...........BOOM you get locked up

MON THE FRENCH on this one IMO

so basically what you're saying is we should take a leaf out of their rather medieval book and start bossing people about what they can and can't wear? :confused:

surely this attitude isn't going to solve anything whatsoever.

[Sir David Gray]

For me, banning the burka is not about telling people what they can and can't wear, first and foremost, it's a question of security.

CCTV solves a lot of crime in this country, and no doubt in other countries as well. I know it's a well worn argument in this discussion but a biker has to remove his crash helmet before he enters a petrol station and a teenager has to remove his hood before he enters a shopping centre. If either of them commit a crime whilst they're in the shopping centre or petrol station, there is a good chance that they will be convicted because their identities will be picked up on the CCTV footage. How on Earth can a person in a burka be identified through CCTV if no-one can see their face?

Something else that I find a bit ridiculous is that the very people who go on about women having the right to wear a burka, if they so choose, are the same people who champion social cohesion between the races. How can you hope to build up a relationship with someone who goes around with a sheet over their entire body? You build a relationship by smiling at someone and by making eye contact with them. Both those things are absolutely impossible when communicating with someone in a burka. These women are isolating themselves from the rest of society by wearing that piece of clothing and I just think it heightens fear and suspicion of them as well. I have seen several women wearing the burka for myself and I personally think it's quite scary.

The women wearing it are either being forced to wear it by their husband (most likely) or they are so radical that they just want to ram their version of extreme Islam down everyone else's throat. I don't think that either scenario is particularly helpful to anyone.

So far, Egypt has imposed a ban on wearing the burka in schools and universities, Syria has recently brought in a similar ban and Turkey has always had a ban on women wearing the burka. Those three countries are all overwhelmingly Muslim nations, where around 90% of the population follow Islam. In Europe France and Belgium have also brought in bans and Switzerland and the Netherlands have started the process of bringing a ban into law.

Meanwhile, in Britain, we can't even mention the possibility of a ban without people being branded as racists and bigots. Damian Green said the other day that banning the burka would be "un-British". To me, wearing the burka is un-British. If people want to wear the burka then that's fine, but go and wear it in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, or some other country where women are treated like dirt and are viewed as a possession by their husband.

I cannot stress enough that this is not an anti-Islam post, I have nothing at all against Muslim women wearing a headscarf, when you can clearly see their face. It is purely and simply a call for a piece of clothing, which has nothing going for it whatsoever, to be banned in this country.

We need to toughen up in this country and stop being such a soft touch when it comes to things like this. When you've got Turkey, Syria and Egypt, who have about 150 million Muslims between them, banning it and saying that it has nothing at all to do with Islam, you just have to wonder why Britain has continuously refused to do likewise.

Personally, I take my hat off to the French here. I wholeheartedly agree with what they are doing and I just wish that our MP's in this country would have the guts to follow suit.

[Woody1985]

For me, banning the burka is not about telling people what they can and can't wear, first and foremost, it's a question of security.

CCTV solves a lot of crime in this country, and no doubt in other countries as well. I know it's a well worn argument in this discussion but a biker has to remove his crash helmet before he enters a petrol station and a teenager has to remove his hood before he enters a shopping centre. If either of them commit a crime whilst they're in the shopping centre or petrol station, there is a good chance that they will be convicted because their identities will be picked up on the CCTV footage. How on Earth can a person in a burka be identified through CCTV if no-one can see their face?

Something else that I find a bit ridiculous is that the very people who go on about women having the right to wear a burka, if they so choose, are the same people who champion social cohesion between the races. How can you hope to build up a relationship with someone who goes around with a sheet over their entire body? You build a relationship by smiling at someone and by making eye contact with them. Both those things are absolutely impossible when communicating with someone in a burka. These women are isolating themselves from the rest of society by wearing that piece of clothing and I just think it heightens fear and suspicion of them as well. I have seen several women wearing the burka for myself and I personally think it's quite scary.

The women wearing it are either being forced to wear it by their husband (most likely) or they are so radical that they just want to ram their version of extreme Islam down everyone else's throat. I don't think that either scenario is particularly helpful to anyone.

So far, Egypt has imposed a ban on wearing the burka in schools and universities, Syria has recently brought in a similar ban and Turkey has always had a ban on women wearing the burka. Those three countries are all overwhelmingly Muslim nations, where around 90% of the population follow Islam. In Europe France and Belgium have also brought in bans and Switzerland and the Netherlands have started the process of bringing a ban into law.

Meanwhile, in Britain, we can't even mention the possibility of a ban without people being branded as racists and bigots. Damian Green said the other day that banning the burka would be "un-British". To me, wearing the burka is un-British. If people want to wear the burka then that's fine, but go and wear it in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, or some other country where women are treated like dirt and are viewed as a possession by their husband.

I cannot stress enough that this is not an anti-Islam post, I have nothing at all against Muslim women wearing a headscarf, when you can clearly see their face. It is purely and simply a call for a piece of clothing, which has nothing going for it whatsoever, to be banned in this country.

We need to toughen up in this country and stop being such a soft touch when it comes to things like this. When you've got Turkey, Syria and Egypt, who have about 150 million Muslims between them, banning it and saying that it has nothing at all to do with Islam, you just have to wonder why Britain has continuously refused to do likewise.

Personally, I take my hat off to the French here. I wholeheartedly agree with what they are doing and I just wish that our MP's in this country would have the guts to follow suit.

Did you copy and paste that from somewhere FR?

I don't think the security aspect is a huge one given the (I suspect) relatively low numbers but people's fear to question this is ridiculous given that the killers of the Glaswegian boy got though airport security with this on, yes, airport security which is probably one of the tightest we see on a day to day basis.

I think the main issue is what it represents and as you've wrote/quoted (I can never quite tell nowadays since you've take a satrical approach to your posts from time to time) that it doesn't appear to have a place in vast countries with huge Muslim populations so why should it have one here?

[Betty Boop]

Did you copy and paste that from somewhere FR?

I don't think the security aspect is a huge one given the (I suspect) relatively low numbers but people's fear to question this is ridiculous given that the killers of the Glaswegian boy got though airport security with this on, yes, airport security which is probably one of the tightest we see on a day to day basis.

I think the main issue is what it represents and as you've wrote/quoted (I can never quite tell nowadays since you've take a satrical approach to your posts from time to time) that it doesn't appear to have a place in vast countries with huge Muslim populations so why should it have one here?

That is FalkirkHibee's post you have quoted, not Filled Rolls. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

For me, banning the burka is not about telling people what they can and can't wear, first and foremost, it's a question of security.

CCTV solves a lot of crime in this country, and no doubt in other countries as well. I know it's a well worn argument in this discussion but a biker has to remove his crash helmet before he enters a petrol station and a teenager has to remove his hood before he enters a shopping centre. If either of them commit a crime whilst they're in the shopping centre or petrol station, there is a good chance that they will be convicted because their identities will be picked up on the CCTV footage. How on Earth can a person in a burka be identified through CCTV if no-one can see their face?

Petrol stations and the like are private property. The owners can do what they want to protect such property. If someone doesn't like said rules, they don't go in. However, what you are talking about is a ban on such headgear (including helmets, don't forget. This is not just specific to burqas) IN PUBLIC.

. I have seen several women wearing the burka for myself and I personally think it's quite scary. I hate to see women with certain body shapes wearing crop tops. That is scary to me. However, I absolutely respect their right to do so.

The women wearing it are either being forced to wear it by their husband (most likely) or they are so radical that they just want to ram their version of extreme Islam down everyone else's throat. I don't think that either scenario is particularly helpful to anyone. As has been said, the likely effect is that they won't be allowed out of the house. Even more sinister.


Meanwhile, in Britain, we can't even mention the possibility of a ban without people being branded as racists and bigots. Damian Green said the other day that banning the burka would be "un-British". To me, wearing the burka is un-British. Nope, dictating what people can and can't wear in public is un-British. Where would you stop? No Star of David? No crucifixes.... after all, as has been demonstrated recently, we are still an anti-Catholic country.

I cannot stress enough that this is not an anti-Islam post, I have nothing at all against Muslim women wearing a headscarf, when you can clearly see their face. It is purely and simply a call for a piece of clothing, which has nothing going for it whatsoever, to be banned in this country. So would you ban the wearing of ties? :greengrin

We need to toughen up in this country and stop being such a soft touch when it comes to things like this. When you've got Turkey, Syria and Egypt, who have about 150 million Muslims between them, banning it and saying that it has nothing at all to do with Islam, you just have to wonder why Britain has continuously refused to do likewise. Because it's not that big an issue here? Because we believe that social issues such as the treatment of women can best be dealt with by education and dialogue, and not by legislation which solves nothing and merely polarises the debate?

Personally, I take my hat off to the French here. If it covers your face, you'll bloody have to. :greengrin.

.

[Woody1985]

That is FalkirkHibee's post you have quoted, not Filled Rolls. :greengrin

:faf: Sorry FR!

It's definitely a FH post then. :tee hee:

[Sir David Gray]

Nope, dictating what people can and can't wear in public is un-British. Where would you stop? No Star of David? No crucifixes.... after all, as has been demonstrated recently, we are still an anti-Catholic country.

You stop at things which are potentially security/safety hazards. I don't have a problem with Muslims publicly declaring their religious beliefs by the wearing of symbols or clothing, so long as it is not a security risk.

The crucifix/Star of David comparisons are a bit ridiculous since neither of them cause a security risk in the way that the burka does. If someone was to call for those items to be banned, the only reason they could have for doing this would be that they object to Roman Catholics and Jews making their religious persuasion public knowledge. That is completely wrong and I would never suggest that a Muslim be prosecuted for making it known that they follow Islam.

As I have already said in my previous post, Muslim women also wear the headscarf and subsequently everyone knows that they are a Muslim and I have no problem with that.

I have no objections at all to people wearing items of clothing or symbols which are connected to their religion, but I do object if those people are exempt from laws/rules which cover the rest of the population, which is the case with the wearing of the burka.


Petrol stations and the like are private property. The owners can do what they want to protect such property. If someone doesn't like said rules, they don't go in. However, what you are talking about is a ban on such headgear (including helmets, don't forget. This is not just specific to burqas) IN PUBLIC

What about a council library then? That is a public place and I'm quite sure that if a biker walked in still wearing his helmet, he would be asked to remove it (quite rightly). The same goes for a teenager with his hood up, I think he would be asked to remove that, too (again, quite rightly).

If a Muslim woman was to walk into a library wearing a burka, there is not a chance that she would be asked to remove it, for fear of being reported for racial hatred.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=FalkirkHibee;2529911]You stop at things which are potentially security/safety hazards. I don't have a problem with Muslims publicly declaring their religious beliefs by the wearing of symbols or clothing, so long as it is not a security risk.

The crucifix/Star of David comparisons are a bit ridiculous since neither of them cause a security risk in the way that the burka does. I have seen people threatened with physical violence for wearing a Star of David, on the grounds that they see it as provocative.



If someone was to call for those items to be banned, the only reason they could have for doing this would be that they object to Roman Catholics and Jews making their religious persuasion public knowledge. That is completely wrong and I would never suggest that a Muslim be prosecuted for making it known that they follow Islam. In France, all religious artefacts and clothing are banned in Government places. So are you now saying that the French stance is wrong?


What about a council library then? That is a public place By public place, of course I mean "in public", not in property owned by the public.