How many builders does it take to build a school?

[Mibbes Aye]

How many builders does it take to build a school? Or 700 schools?

We won't know, because that's how many school rebuilds have just been scrapped by the Tories.

At least we think it's 700 schools. Because Michael Gove, the Tory Education Secretary has been telling schools they'll get rebuilt when they won't. He's changed his mind five times and the latest list he has published has two dozen extra schools for the chop who weren't in the first list!

It would have been a lot of work. A lot of private sector work, too. Because it's the private sector that builds our schools and hospitals. A lot of jobs for labourers, brickies, electricians, plumbers and all the other trades.

They're jobs that won't be there anymore. But it's hard to figure out why.

We know there have to be cuts, off the back of the global recession and the bailing-out of the banks.

But the Tories are making cuts of £40 to 50 billion over and above what Labour were suggesting. And yet the rebuilding that was planned, to make our childrens' schools wind and waterproof, to make them fit for our children to learn in, was only costing £1 billion a year.

But lest we forget, Michael Gove, the Tory Education Secretary, is on record as wanting to take away free school meals and give the money to people to set up schools for profit...............

[CropleyWasGod]

How many builders does it take to build a school? Or 700 schools?

We won't know, because that's how many school rebuilds have just been scrapped by the Tories.

At least we think it's 700 schools. Because Michael Gove, the Tory Education Secretary has been telling schools they'll get rebuilt when they won't. He's changed his mind five times and the latest list he has published has two dozen extra schools for the chop who weren't in the first list!

It would have been a lot of work. A lot of private sector work, too. Because it's the private sector that builds our schools and hospitals. A lot of jobs for labourers, brickies, electricians, plumbers and all the other trades.

They're jobs that won't be there anymore. But it's hard to figure out why.

We know there have to be cuts, off the back of the global recession and the bailing-out of the banks.

But the Tories are making cuts of £40 to 50 billion over and above what Labour were suggesting. And yet the rebuilding that was planned, to make our childrens' schools wind and waterproof, to make them fit for our children to learn in, was only costing £1 billion a year.

And Michael Gove, the Tory Education Secretary, is on record as wanting to take away free school meals and give the money to people to set up schools for profit.

Do you live in England?

The Education Secretary in Scotland isn't a Tory.

[Jack]

Not saying we wont in some way be affected but Scottish education / schools budgets are decided by the Scottish Parliament.

[Sergey]

It would have been a lot of work. A lot of private sector work, too. Because it's the private sector that builds our schools and hospitals. A lot of jobs for labourers, brickies, electricians, plumbers and all the other trades.



Those jobs would most likely be taken up by foreign nationals, assuming that you're thinking of the creation of private sector "British" labour.

I visited the 2012 Olympic Park a couple of weeks ago. I struggled to find an English speaker.

I'm not advocating that what Gove is doing is right (he is a cock) but surely education begins at home :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Do you live in England?

The Education Secretary in Scotland isn't a Tory.

I assumed people would be able to tell the difference :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Not saying we wont in some way be affected but Scottish education / schools budgets are decided by the Scottish Parliament.

Why does it have to be about Scotland?

[CropleyWasGod]

Why does it have to be about Scotland?

You were talking about "our kids". I therefore presumed you lived in England.

[Mibbes Aye]

Those jobs would most likely be taken up by foreign nationals, assuming that you're thinking of the creation of private sector "British" labour.

I visited the 2012 Olympic Park a couple of weeks ago. I struggled to find an English speaker.

I'm not advocating that what Gove is doing is right (he is a cock) but surely education begins at home :greengrin

If it were foreign nationals, I'm assuming they are living over here rather than commuting - so they're paying rent or a mortgage, paying council tax, paying income tax, VAT, buying goods and services etc, basically putting money into the economy.

[Mibbes Aye]

You were talking about "our kids". I therefore presumed you lived in England.

Take your point. It's complicated :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

You were talking about "our kids". I therefore presumed you lived in England.

We are all Jock Tamson's bairns! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

We are all Jock Tamson's bairns! :greengrin

Ok sis? :greengrin

[Woody1985]

How many builders will build 700 schools for free?

Well we can't pay them if we have no money can we.

[degenerated]

Do you live in England?

The Education Secretary in Scotland isn't a Tory.

doesn't just affect English companies though, ramifications are pretty massive throughout the UK. Given that there is little or no private investment in construction projects and the BSF projects were one of the very few publicly funded projects left it means lean times in construction. The construction sector gets hid hardest of all in times of recession and there is bugger all in the way of government assistance in helping one of the biggest employment sectors in this country. The hope was that by the time the inevitable happened and public spending dissappeared the private market would be back again but the Tories have pulled that rug from under thei ndustries feet

28% of people employed in the construction industry have lost their jobs since this recession hit, that's a hell of a lot of unemployed people!!! and it's going to get a lot worse.

[Betty Boop]

Ok sis? :greengrin

:wink:

[degenerated]

Those jobs would most likely be taken up by foreign nationals, assuming that you're thinking of the creation of private sector "British" labour.

I visited the 2012 Olympic Park a couple of weeks ago. I struggled to find an English speaker.

I'm not advocating that what Gove is doing is right (he is a cock) but surely education begins at home :greengrin

that's only the tip of the iceberg. the main contractors are all large employers in terms of construction management, commercial, accountants, IT, architects, designers. And that's not to mention the supply chain for the materials required from the manufacturers to the merchants, the haulage to get materials there, the plant manufacturers and operators required in any sort of construction project.

[Mibbes Aye]

How many builders will build 700 schools for free?

Well we can't pay them if we have no money can we.

Woody, think you missed the bit about the Building Schools for the Future programme costing about £1 billion a year. That's the money that would be going into paying the builders.

And the Tories adding on £40-50 billion in unnecessary cuts (we'll see the true extent in the autumn spending review).

Even with the frankly obscene levels of cuts proposed by George Osborne, this country functions on hundreds of billions of pounds in public spending.

[Woody1985]

Woody, think you missed the bit about the Building Schools for the Future programme costing about £1 billion a year. That's the money that would be going into paying the builders.

And the Tories adding on £40-50 billion in unnecessary cuts (we'll see the true extent in the autumn spending review).

Even with the frankly obscene levels of cuts proposed by George Osborne, this country functions on hundreds of billions of pounds in public spending.

Is 1 billion spending not a drop in the ocean though? I suppose you could argue that it's a drop in the ocean and could be left in place.

[Sergey]

that's only the tip of the iceberg. the main contractors are all large employers in terms of construction management, commercial, accountants, IT, architects, designers. And that's not to mention the supply chain for the materials required from the manufacturers to the merchants, the haulage to get materials there, the plant manufacturers and operators required in any sort of construction project.

Fair point....but...

...how much job creation is there within those departments when new contracts are awarded? I'd hazard a guess that the work is mostly foisted onto existing staff.

There's too many overpaid construction management professionals out there. Culling them would be a real saving :greengrin

[degenerated]

Fair point....but...

...how much job creation is there within those departments when new contracts are awarded? I'd hazard a guess that the work is mostly foisted onto existing staff.

There's too many overpaid construction management professionals out there. Culling them would be a real saving :greengrin

i think a lot of it will be the saving of jobs rather than the creation.

anyway having just read version 5 of michael gove's cackhanded attempt at an anoouncement i see the ones i will be working on are still unaffected. so i'm alright jack :greengrin

that however. may change when he confesses to having made an erse of it again and goes for version 6 or 7 :grr:

[Mibbes Aye]

Is 1 billion spending not a drop in the ocean though? I suppose you could argue that it's a drop in the ocean and could be left in place.

Absolutely. You could argue that it's an unnecessary cut and could be left in place :agree:

You could also ask why more than 700 state schools in desperate need of repair and renovation aren't being rebuilt, yet Gove wants to give money to people to set up schools run for profit. It appears even his backbenchers whose constituency schools are affected are queueing up to ask him that.

And you could ask how this benefits job creation? To reduce it to very simple terms, building things creates jobs. Different kinds of jobs. Most of which are in business, in some form or another.

[Sergey]

And you could ask how this benefits job creation? To reduce it to very simple terms, building things creates jobs. Different kinds of jobs. Most of which are in business, in some form or another.

Are you suggesting that it should be public sector money that secures private sector jobs within the construction industry?

Sorry, but I don't buy that. The construction industry have had it good for years. I won't use the term, fleeced, but I could.

[BEEJ]

You could also ask why more than 700 state schools in desperate need of repair and renovation aren't being rebuilt,
And you could also ask why there remain so many state schools in the UK so apparently in need of urgent repair and renovation after 13 years of a Labour administration, one which it would appear consistently spent more than the country could readily afford.

:wink:

[Beefster]

Let's get the State to employ everyone, pay everyone the same wage irrespective of role, nationalise all private businesses and be done with it. If anyone influential is reading this, I quite fancy being a crisp taster.

Or the State can just live within its means. I'm easy.

[Mibbes Aye]

Are you suggesting that it should be public sector money that secures private sector jobs within the construction industry?

Sorry, but I don't buy that. The construction industry have had it good for years. I won't use the term, fleeced, but I could.

How else would you build schools, hospitals, roads etc etc?

I agree that historically (and not just in this country), the private sector has made a lot more money than it necessarily should have from work commissioned by the public sector.

[Mibbes Aye]

And you could also ask why there remain so many state schools in the UK so apparently in need of urgent repair and renovation after 13 years of a Labour administration, one which it would appear consistently spent more than the country could readily afford.

:wink:

Labour inherited a country where our hospitals and schools were in a dreadful state and spent a vast, vast amount of money trying to improve that infrastructure.

It's not a one-off exercise though. It's ongoing. And if we want hospitals and schools of a decent standard for everyone then we have to pay for them.

[Mibbes Aye]

Let's get the State to employ everyone, pay everyone the same wage irrespective of role, nationalise all private businesses and be done with it. If anyone influential is reading this, I quite fancy being a crisp taster.

Or the State can just live within its means. I'm easy.


I agree, the state should aim to live within its means. I think that needs to be looked at in the broadest sense though, so there's an argument for not overdoing the cuts in public spending as that's what will help the recovery in the short- to medium-term.

There's also an argument that after years of neglect, some elements of public infrastructure simply needed the investment.

[Mibbes Aye]

Let's get the State to employ everyone, pay everyone the same wage irrespective of role, nationalise all private businesses and be done with it. If anyone influential is reading this, I quite fancy being a crisp taster.

Or the State can just live within its means. I'm easy.

A lifelong career in public service doing that and you'll be needing that new NHS hospital :greengrin

[Woody1985]

How else would you build schools, hospitals, roads etc etc?

I agree that historically (and not just in this country), the private sector has made a lot more money than it necessarily should have from work commissioned by the public sector.

But surely private contruction firms shouldn't depend on government contracts and diversify to ensure that they can still turn a profit if one of their sources diminishes. Of course, there will be some firms which are dependent on local councils & government to exist but they also should be aware of the risk to their business when the coffers dry up.

[degenerated]

But surely private contruction firms shouldn't depend on government contracts and diversify to ensure that they can still turn a profit if one of their sources diminishes. Of course, there will be some firms which are dependent on local councils & government to exist but they also should be aware of the risk to their business when the coffers dry up.

Don't you think they thought of that already :confused:

the only reason many construction firms are dependant on publicly funded works is because of the fact that since Nov 2008 there has been no notable private spend on construction in the UK.

[RyeSloan]

How many builders does it take to build a school? Or 700 schools?

We won't know, because that's how many school rebuilds have just been scrapped by the Tories.

At least we think it's 700 schools. Because Michael Gove, the Tory Education Secretary has been telling schools they'll get rebuilt when they won't. He's changed his mind five times and the latest list he has published has two dozen extra schools for the chop who weren't in the first list!

It would have been a lot of work. A lot of private sector work, too. Because it's the private sector that builds our schools and hospitals. A lot of jobs for labourers, brickies, electricians, plumbers and all the other trades.

They're jobs that won't be there anymore. But it's hard to figure out why.

We know there have to be cuts, off the back of the global recession and the bailing-out of the banks.

But the Tories are making cuts of £40 to 50 billion over and above what Labour were suggesting. And yet the rebuilding that was planned, to make our childrens' schools wind and waterproof, to make them fit for our children to learn in, was only costing £1 billion a year.

But lest we forget, Michael Gove, the Tory Education Secretary, is on record as wanting to take away free school meals and give the money to people to set up schools for profit...............

First off Gove has made a mess of his annocuncements and revising the list 5 times has been farcical.

However looking at a comment from the NAO report published in Feb 2009:

"the overall cost of the programme had risen from £45bn to between £52bn and £55bn. If the scheme were to hit its original target of finishing every secondary school by 2020, it would need to build 200 schools every year at a cost of between £3.4bn and £3.7bn a year"

Clearly the country can't afford such a cost or to waste the scare resources on lengthy and ineffective procurement processes so the prinicple of stopping and reviewing and ensuring we can afford seems to be logical but as I said the way Gove and his department have went about it do not.

Edit: There is a very good reason the coalition has been forced to provide bigger cuts than Labour and that is the Labour figures were not honest and were based on over inflated growth estimates.

[Mibbes Aye]

First off Gove has made a mess of his annocuncements and revising the list 5 times has been farcical.

However looking at a comment from the NAO report published in Feb 2009:

"the overall cost of the programme had risen from £45bn to between £52bn and £55bn. If the scheme were to hit its original target of finishing every secondary school by 2020, it would need to build 200 schools every year at a cost of between £3.4bn and £3.7bn a year"

Clearly the country can't afford such a cost or to waste the scare resources on lengthy and ineffective procurement processes so the prinicple of stopping and reviewing and ensuring we can afford seems to be logical but as I said the way Gove and his department have went about it do not.

Edit: There is a very good reason the coalition has been forced to provide bigger cuts than Labour and that is the Labour figures were not honest and were based on over inflated growth estimates.

Why ever not?

Even with the 40% cuts to public services that the Tories have floated, we're still talking hundreds of billions of pounds being spent on things that are essential to the fabric of the nation.

I suspect we might be closer on this than is usually the case :greengrin. In the present climate, it's unarguable that the government needs to focus spending on its 'core business' (our definition of that probably diverges a bit though).

To my mind, schools that are wind and watertight, fit for purpose and not overcrowded is definitely 'core business'.

[RyeSloan]

Why ever not?

Even with the 40% cuts to public services that the Tories have floated, we're still talking hundreds of billions of pounds being spent on things that are essential to the fabric of the nation.

I suspect we might be closer on this than is usually the case :greengrin. In the present climate, it's unarguable that the government needs to focus spending on its 'core business' (our definition of that probably diverges a bit though).

To my mind, schools that are wind and watertight, fit for purpose and not overcrowded is definitely 'core business'.

For once you may be right :wink: :greengrin

I agree education should be one of the several areas where spending should be protected where possible but I don't agree that this means we should continue with a school replacement system that was providing slow results and very poor returns in terms of bang for buck.

It's also simply not possible with a spending reduction of this magnatute to simply say 'Ach we need it so we will keep building it, to hell with the cost' and there is still to be 700 odd school buildings completed under the scheme however I must admit I am suspect about the Tory desire to re-instate the required level of investment when the budget can afford it, it would be hoped that their coalition partners might persude them to go a bit further and a bit quicker on this when the time comes...

Of course they could just take the SNP route and build next to nothing at all.....