No swimming during ramadan

[Woody1985]

Crazy shi'ite!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/stoke_and_staffordshire/10596808.stm

[hibee_boy]

im not even going to get started

[500miles]

Seems like a fairly minor adjustment if you ask me.

[Twa Cairpets]

If accurately reported, this is absurd.

The council said the document, produced by its Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education, was based on information from the Muslim Council of Great Britain, an umbrella organisation that claims to represent up to 500 Muslim groups in the UK.
"The overriding consideration should be that children do not feel disadvantaged in school activities because of their religious observance," the council added.

No. Utterly and completely incorrect. Although it is not clear if they mean the MCofGB or Staffordshire Council, it should not be the over-riding consideration. (In my opinion it shouldnt be a consideration at all, as schooling should be absolutely secular).

I also love this bit: It also suggests re-scheduling sex education classes during the holy lunar month, as Muslim followers who have reached puberty are required to avoid sexual thoughts during this period. Well that'll definitely stop teenagers thinking about sex, won't it. Sheesh.

At the risk of morphing into corrie greens, its PC gone mad!

[Beefster]

Why can't the kids observing Ramadan, or their parents, take a decision on whether to allow them to participate in the swimming lesson and take the risk, rather than blanket bans on activities?

I'm all for religious freedom but it shouldn't impinge on the education of others. It's an extreme example but what happens if a kid drowns as a direct result of missing a month of swimming lessons?

[Woody1985]

Why can't the kids observing Ramadan, or their parents, take a decision on whether to allow them to participate in the swimming lesson and take the risk, rather than blanket bans on activities?

I'm all for religious freedom but it shouldn't impinge on the education of others. It's an extreme example but what happens if a kid drowns as a direct result of missing a month of swimming lessons?

It'll be what Allah wanted.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It'll be what Allah wanted.

More likely what some ignorant little committee in a back room of the council building imagine it is what he wanted.

We are so risk averse that fear of making the wrong decision is causing us to make the wrong decisions.

[Woody1985]

More likely what some ignorant little committee in a back room of the council building imagine it is what he wanted.

We are so risk averse that fear of making the wrong decision is causing us to make the wrong decisions.

It was tongue in cheek. I completely agree on trying to eliminate risk from every little thing is too far.

[hibsdaft]

More likely what some ignorant little committee in a back room of the council building imagine it is what he wanted.

We are so risk averse that fear of making the wrong decision is causing us to make the wrong decisions.

there's a lot of truth in that. whether its the case on this occasion, who knows, but its happening all the time. not necessarily ignorance either, sometimes just perfectly well meaning idiocy.

this one is ****ing insane though.

[Pretty Boy]

Scenarios like this make me want to tear my hair out.

This decision is likely to stir up a fair bit of anger/resentment against Muslims because people will assume that Muslims made a fuss and got what they wanted. In reality i'd say a fair majority of Muslims won't have given a **** and this is the work of an overpaid, underworked committee in some back office somewhere.

In trying to be all inclusive and doing what they assume to be right, these busybodies have more than likely acheived exactly the opposite of what they intended.

[Woody1985]

There is a story in today's metro that Austrians are asking people to try and not swallow the water from their swimming pools because they are losing up to 5,000 litres a day and it's costing too much to replace the lost water.

Maybe this is a council money saving scheme. :greengrin

FWIW, I believe that your relgion is your own personal thing and it should not impact those around you. I wonder if there is anywhere that has documented a local (to the area affected) Muslim view point on this.

[Betty Boop]

Scenarios like this make me want to tear my hair out.

This decision is likely to stir up a fair bit of anger/resentment against Muslims because people will assume that Muslims made a fuss and got what they wanted. In reality i'd say a fair majority of Muslims won't have given a **** and this is the work of an overpaid, underworked committee in some back office somewhere.

In trying to be all inclusive and doing what they assume to be right, these busybodies have more than likely acheived exactly the opposite of what they intended.

:top marks

[Hainan Hibs]

It's another case of the council completely over reacting and causing even more hassle for the Muslim community.

I'd imagine they wouldn't give two hoots about children swimming during Ramadan and if they did not want their children to participate other activities would shirley be available.

The risk is people will vent their anger towards the Muslim community and not towards the people who are at fault, the overreacting council.

[(((Fergus)))]

It's another case of the council completely over reacting and causing even more hassle for the Muslim community.

I'd imagine they wouldn't give two hoots about children swimming during Ramadan and if they did not want their children to participate other activities would shirley be available.

The risk is people will vent their anger towards the Muslim community and not towards the people who are at fault, the overreacting council.

Do we know for sure why the council has issued this guidance?

What are the possibilities?

1) That the council are, or want to be seen as, nice and right-on and make these allowances for all sects. (Do they?)

2) That they have in fact had pressure from muslims about this issue. (Has this been denied?)

3) That they want to pre-empt trouble with the muslim community - or rather with the irrationally violent segment of it, the ones who 'misinterpret Islam'.

Any others?

[khib70]

It's another case of the council completely over reacting and causing even more hassle for the Muslim community.

I'd imagine they wouldn't give two hoots about children swimming during Ramadan and if they did not want their children to participate other activities would shirley be available.

The risk is people will vent their anger towards the Muslim community and not towards the people who are at fault, the overreacting council.
From the BBC report:

"It said the document, produced by its Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education, was based on information from the Muslim Council of Britain, (MCB) an umbrella organisation that claims to represent up to 500 Muslim groups in the UK.

A spokesman for the MCB said: "[We] issued an advisory document which highlighted parental concerns from a broad spectrum of Muslim traditions."

:cool2:

[Hainan Hibs]

From the BBC report:

"It said the document, produced by its Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education, was based on information from the Muslim Council of Britain, (MCB) an umbrella organisation that claims to represent up to 500 Muslim groups in the UK.

A spokesman for the MCB said: "[We] issued an advisory document which highlighted parental concerns from a broad spectrum of Muslim traditions."

:cool2:

Yes I did read the article.

[(((Fergus)))]

Yes I did read the article.


Council should have told the MCB to GTF?

[RyeSloan]

Possible over reaction here??

As the article states

"These were guidelines designed to be helpful, to understand the concerns of certain Muslim parents. They are not obligatory or in no way directive"

Also the main point about swimming is:

"Schools with a significant number of Muslim pupils should try to avoid scheduling swimming lessons during Ramadan to remove unnecessary barriers to full participation."

OK it does not quantify significant number but surely if a school has a large percentage of muslim pupils this advice might actually be reasonable? I don't see anywhere the suggestion that if a school has a small number of muslims that it should even consider these guidelines no matter being forced to follow them.

Not quite sure about the sex education part though as one poster has pointed out that ain't gonna stop anything is it!!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Possible over reaction here??

As the article states

"These were guidelines designed to be helpful, to understand the concerns of certain Muslim parents. They are not obligatory or in no way directive"

Also the main point about swimming is:

"Schools with a significant number of Muslim pupils should try to avoid scheduling swimming lessons during Ramadan to remove unnecessary barriers to full participation."

OK it does not quantify significant number but surely if a school has a large percentage of muslim pupils this advice might actually be reasonable? I don't see anywhere the suggestion that if a school has a small number of muslims that it should even consider these guidelines no matter being forced to follow them.

Not quite sure about the sex education part though as one poster has pointed out that ain't gonna stop anything is it!!

This is what gets me about these stories. The actual detail is usually a lot more sympathetic to all parties than what is printed by the press. A false perception grows up about who has demanded what. Is this the press' fault for printing lies and distortion, or the public for being too lazy to read the detail.

I was in the doctor's the other day when two ladies in full Islamic dress came out of a consultation. Immediately one of our downtrodden "working" class shot me a strange look. This person then got into conversation with one of our pensioners who has "worked hard" all his life.

The conclusion was that the ladies had been given priority over other patients because they were Islamic. These two eejit, who have never worked a day in their life had taken it on themselves to spread rumour and gossip - they can have had no idea how the appointments system works in the surgery.

When I use the word "working" in this post, I am really meaning "workshy". The people involved were as big a pair of whingeing wasters as you could meet.

One of them spent the whole time I was there berating the receptionists over the standard of his care, and telling us all how he was going to put the doctor straight.

I just didn't like the look of the other one.

[(((Fergus)))]

This is what gets me about these stories. The actual detail is usually a lot more sympathetic to all parties than what is printed by the press. A false perception grows up about who has demanded what. Is this the press' fault for printing lies and distortion, or the public for being too lazy to read the detail.

I was in the doctor's the other day when two ladies in full Islamic dress came out of a consultation. Immediately one of our downtrodden "working" class shot me a strange look. This person then got into conversation with one of our pensioners who has "worked hard" all his life.

The conclusion was that the ladies had been given priority over other patients because they were Islamic. These two eejit, who have never worked a day in their life had taken it on themselves to spread rumour and gossip - they can have had no idea how the appointments system works in the surgery.

When I use the word "working" in this post, I am really meaning "workshy". The people involved were as big a pair of whingeing wasters as you could meet.

One of them spent the whole time I was there berating the receptionists over the standard of his care, and telling us all how he was going to put the doctor straight.

I just didn't like the look of the other one.

What sort of percentages are we talking about here?

[Phil D. Rolls]

What sort of percentages are we talking about here?

About 40 or 15........

I haven't got a clue. I just know that the reality I encounter is different from the picture painted by the likes of the Daily Mail. Likewise, most Muslims I know are perfectly reasonable people who are quite happy to fit in.

[Betty Boop]

Given that the school holidays in England usually start at the end of July, and finish the first week in September, surely school pupils observing Ramadan will only be fasting for a week when they return to school. An overreaction right enough.

[500miles]

PE Classes, in my experience (ie. at Porty), will be organised to ensure that all courses running during the same periods, at the same level, get the same oppertunities. If for one reason or another, a child cannot participate in one activity (ie. swimming) then they can be switched to another class for that block, and switched back when they CAN swim. A bit of a shuffle, but no great nightmare. How this became a news story, I have no idea. Who would have thought that Muslims may want to minimise thier chances of inadvertantly breaking thier fast during thier holy month, eh?

[Dashing Bob S]

Scenarios like this make me want to tear my hair out.

This decision is likely to stir up a fair bit of anger/resentment against Muslims because people will assume that Muslims made a fuss and got what they wanted. In reality i'd say a fair majority of Muslims won't have given a **** and this is the work of an overpaid, underworked committee in some back office somewhere.

In trying to be all inclusive and doing what they assume to be right, these busybodies have more than likely acheived exactly the opposite of what they intended.


Great post.

It really makes you wonder what those cretins actual objectives are - are they British National Party moles trying to promote some kind of race war with this nonsense?

[(((Fergus)))]

About 40 or 15........

I haven't got a clue. I just know that the reality I encounter is different from the picture painted by the likes of the Daily Mail. Likewise, most Muslims I know are perfectly reasonable people who are quite happy to fit in.

The reality I encounter is also massively different from that portrayed by the Daily Mail, but then there aren't a lot of muslims where I live. The Daily Mail on the other hand is published in London.

The reasonable muslims who want to fit in are not the problem; it's the unreasonable ones* we need to deal with. I hope the reasonable ones are also doing their bit in combating them. I wonder, for example, if the police get a lot of information from muslim informants. If they do, I'm sure there won't be a problem employing muslims at GCHQ.

* Erseholes like this, however incompetent: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us+canada-10634960

[Phil D. Rolls]

The reality I encounter is also massively different from that portrayed by the Daily Mail, but then there aren't a lot of muslims where I live. The Daily Mail on the other hand is published in London.

The reasonable muslims who want to fit in are not the problem; it's the unreasonable ones* we need to deal with. I hope the reasonable ones are also doing their bit in combating them. I wonder, for example, if the police get a lot of information from muslim informants. If they do, I'm sure there won't be a problem employing muslims at GCHQ.

* Erseholes like this, however incompetent: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us+canada-10634960

The Daily Mail could be published in Mecca, but lies are still lies.

Don't you think it's not just about the Muslims fitting in with us, but us fitting in with them? As this thread has developed it has transpired that all the council want to do is have schools consider rearranging swimming lessons so that some of kids in the class dont have to feel like lemons standing outside the pool.

It's surely not unreasonable to make some compromises?

[khib70]

The Daily Mail could be published in Mecca, but lies are still lies.

Don't you think it's not just about the Muslims fitting in with us, but us fitting in with them? As this thread has developed it has transpired that all the council want to do is have schools consider rearranging swimming lessons so that some of kids in the class dont have to feel like lemons standing outside the pool.

It's surely not unreasonable to make some compromises?

And foreign workers in Muslim countries are shown this consideration, are they? Come and build our six star hotels, but don't hold hands in public or its the cat o'nine tails.

And how far should we go to "fit in"? Should we do this for every religious group, or just Muslims?

[Twa Cairpets]

The Daily Mail could be published in Mecca, but lies are still lies.

Don't you think it's not just about the Muslims fitting in with us, but us fitting in with them? As this thread has developed it has transpired that all the council want to do is have schools consider rearranging swimming lessons so that some of kids in the class dont have to feel like lemons standing outside the pool.

It's surely not unreasonable to make some compromises?

Although this goes somewhat against my natural lliberal tendencies, when it comes to this, I think the answer is no.

Non-faith schools should be entirely secular. (I think allschools should be, but that is a different subject entirely). If you make compromises/allowances for any particular religious belief, you need to give equal level of consideration/accommodation for the specific restrictions imposed by any belief system. I would stress this is not an anti-muslim but anti-any restrictive religious practice stance.

I think that guidance given to schools highlighting that some (and I would think it is a very, very small number) of kids (or more likely their parents) would be concerned at breaking their ramadan fast by swimming is fair enough - it lets the school plan in advance alternative care arrangements for them, but leave it at that.

[Sergio sledge]

Although this goes somewhat against my natural lliberal tendencies, when it comes to this, I think the answer is no.

Non-faith schools should be entirely secular. (I think allschools should be, but that is a different subject entirely). If you make compromises/allowances for any particular religious belief, you need to give equal level of consideration/accommodation for the specific restrictions imposed by any belief system. I would stress this is not an anti-muslim but anti-any restrictive religious practice stance.

I think that guidance given to schools highlighting that some (and I would think it is a very, very small number) of kids (or more likely their parents) would be concerned at breaking their ramadan fast by swimming is fair enough - it lets the school plan in advance alternative care arrangements for them, but leave it at that.

It's hardly restrictive or a big deal to arrange the school year so that P.E. classes involving swimming don't fall within Ramadan though is it? All they need to do is move their interpretive dance module to August/September, and swimming to where interpretive dance was to be.

To be honest I think there has been a major over-reaction on here to what is purely a guidance document the likes of which are issued all the time on different issues, not only religion related. Some schools will decide to implement it, some schools won't, the upshot of it will be that in some schools their swimming lessons will be moved to later in the year, some they wont and some will not have had their swimming lessons falling during Ramadan anyway.

Much ado about nothing IMHO.

[Twa Cairpets]

It's hardly restrictive or a big deal to arrange the school year so that P.E. classes involving swimming don't fall within Ramadan though is it? All they need to do is move their interpretive dance module to August/September, and swimming to where interpretive dance was to be.

To be honest I think there has been a major over-reaction on here to what is purely a guidance document the likes of which are issued all the time on different issues, not only religion related. Some schools will decide to implement it, some schools won't, the upshot of it will be that in some schools their swimming lessons will be moved to later in the year, some they wont and some will not have had their swimming lessons falling during Ramadan anyway.

Much ado about nothing IMHO.

Its a fair point Sergio, it almost certainly is an over-reaction, and probably plays into the hands of the "they come over here and tell us what to do, take our jobs etc etc crowd" more than it should, but the underlying principle is important, if not the manifestation of the principle in this instance.

To my mind, acceding to the wishes of religion in a secular, educational environment really does open the door to further and further demands being placed. At which point does it become untenable to "just move the curriculum around"? As something of a comparable circumstance, the continuing and repeated efforts of the creationist movement to introduce Intelligent Design into mainstream eduction is even called the "Wedge Strategy" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy). I have concerns that once the principle is established - for any denomination or faith - it opens the door for increasingly less acceptable limitations being placed.

[PeeJay]

I do wonder if perhaps we're being too naive here and perhaps attaching blame to the "wrong" parties? The MCB (hardly a democratically elected body, purportedly representing 500 Muslim groups - says who by the way and which groups anyway?) has lobbied for this particular action, it seems. This is not a one-off either; this sort of prodding and pushing and twisting of opinion coupled with taking advantage of an apathetic society to ultimately try and enforce rules and practices better suited to those of (in this case) a Muslim faith, is a form of targeted campaigning that is currently being practised all round Europe. Similar so-called "minor" issues are popping up everywhere - Germany recently had an issue with a Muslim schoolkid demanding a separate room on the school premises for "prayers" - a request rejected by the civil court, I'm glad to say:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,697182,00.html
I personally feel that the schoolkid was instrumentalised in this particular issue - by whom I wonder? Is it any different with the swimming lesson case in the UK? Perhaps we shouldn't simply be blaming PC or the BNP or some busybodying and misguided committee?
The majority of Muslims may well be peace-loving and know nothing of this or any of the other cases around Europe - indeed they may not even care, but then they are not the "problem": it's the Muslim fundamentalists, lobbyists and so forth who are running such concerted campaigns all over Europe who are the problem.

... and then there's those of the other faiths :cool2:

[Betty Boop]

I do wonder if perhaps we're being too naive here and perhaps attaching blame to the "wrong" parties? The MCB (hardly a democratically elected body, purportedly representing 500 Muslim groups - says who by the way and which groups anyway?) has lobbied for this particular action, it seems. This is not a one-off either; this sort of prodding and pushing and twisting of opinion coupled with taking advantage of an apathetic society to ultimately try and enforce rules and practices better suited to those of (in this case) a Muslim faith, is a form of targeted campaigning that is currently being practised all round Europe. Similar so-called "minor" issues are popping up everywhere - Germany recently had an issue with a Muslim schoolkid demanding a separate room on the school premises for "prayers" - a request rejected by the civil court, I'm glad to say:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,697182,00.html
I personally feel that the schoolkid was instrumentalised in this particular issue - by whom I wonder? Is it any different with the swimming lesson case in the UK? Perhaps we shouldn't simply be blaming PC or the BNP or some busybodying and misguided committee?
The majority of Muslims may well be peace-loving and know nothing of this or any of the other cases around Europe - indeed they may not even care, but then they are not the "problem": it's the Muslim fundamentalists, lobbyists and so forth who are running such concerted campaigns all over Europe who are the problem.

... and then there's those of the other faiths :cool2:

Telford college has a room set aside for prayer, open to those of all faiths. What is the problem with that ?

[PeeJay]

Telford college has a room set aside for prayer, open to those of all faiths. What is the problem with that ?

We have a secular school system here in Germany - separation of church and state: religion has no place in the schools - crucifixes out of the classrooms, no special prayer rooms: no exceptions!

[Betty Boop]

We have a secular school system here in Germany - separation of church and state: religion has no place in the schools - crucifixes out of the classrooms, no special prayer rooms: no exceptions!

This article seems to say the opposite. :confused:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0120/Why-German-public-schools-now-teach-Islam

[(((Fergus)))]

The Daily Mail could be published in Mecca, but lies are still lies.

Don't you think it's not just about the Muslims fitting in with us, but us fitting in with them? As this thread has developed it has transpired that all the council want to do is have schools consider rearranging swimming lessons so that some of kids in the class dont have to feel like lemons standing outside the pool.

It's surely not unreasonable to make some compromises?

Yes that's the idea: use democracy to get rid of democracy and bring in Islamic law. The prognosis is probably longer in the UK than in other parts of Europe but that is the direction it is going in.

You could argue that it is fair enough given that Europeans are not reproducing while most muslims are, plus it's payback for bringing them in to look after our old folk that we can't be bothered with and do the jobs that our children should be doing for us if we could have been bothered having any.

On the other hand you could take the stance - as muslim countries do - that if you come to this country, you conform to the existing culture - a culture of relative freedom that it has taken us centuries and many lives lost to develop. Then again, that culture doesn't seem important enough for people to defend. Perhaps it isn't? If the majority want an Islamic theocracy then there's no democratic argument against it, is there?

[Twa Cairpets]

Yes that's the idea: use democracy to get rid of democracy and bring in Islamic law. The prognosis is probably longer in the UK than in other parts of Europe but that is the direction it is going in.

You could argue that it is fair enough given that Europeans are not reproducing while most muslims are, plus it's payback for bringing them in to look after our old folk that we can't be bothered with and do the jobs that our children should be doing for us if we could have been bothered having any.

On the other hand you could take the stance - as muslim countries do - that if you come to this country, you conform to the existing culture - a culture of relative freedom that it has taken us centuries and many lives lost to develop. Then again, that culture doesn't seem important enough for people to defend. Perhaps it isn't? If the majority want an Islamic theocracy then there's no democratic argument against it, is there?

And I thought I was maybe over-reacting...

[(((Fergus)))]

And I thought I was maybe over-reacting...

you saying that all schools should be secular is a gross overreaction. atheist mullahs are as bad as religious ones.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yes that's the idea: use democracy to get rid of democracy and bring in Islamic law. The prognosis is probably longer in the UK than in other parts of Europe but that is the direction it is going in.

You could argue that it is fair enough given that Europeans are not reproducing while most muslims are, plus it's payback for bringing them in to look after our old folk that we can't be bothered with and do the jobs that our children should be doing for us if we could have been bothered having any.

On the other hand you could take the stance - as muslim countries do - that if you come to this country, you conform to the existing culture - a culture of relative freedom that it has taken us centuries and many lives lost to develop. Then again, that culture doesn't seem important enough for people to defend. Perhaps it isn't? If the majority want an Islamic theocracy then there's no democratic argument against it, is there?

So intolerance is the way ahead?

[(((Fergus)))]

So intolerance is the way ahead?

I don't know what the way ahead is. If the British aren't interested in having families and maintaining their identity, then it's only natural that something will fill that vacuum. The British are very phlegmatic though so it can seem like weakness or lack of vitality, so maybe I'm being too pessimistic.

[Twa Cairpets]

you saying that all schools should be secular is a gross overreaction. atheist mullahs are as bad as religious ones.

Atheist Mullah. Hmmm.
i have no problem people believing whatever they want in their church or their home. I do object, however, to anyones particular religion being taught as part of a curriculum, or any difference being afforded to people as a result of their faith - thats called sectariansim, isn't it? I also believe that comparative religion should be taught in an unbiased, disinterested manner in schools to give kids exposure to various other creation theories and have religion put in context as an important part of world history. Bascially give kids an opportunity to think about it in an enquiring manner and letting them come to their own conclusions, rather than being spoon fed faith based dogma.


I don't know what the way ahead is. If the British aren't interested in having families and maintaining their identity, then it's only natural that something will fill that vacuum. The British are very phlegmatic though so it can seem like weakness or lack of vitality, so maybe I'm being too pessimistic.


Yes that's the idea: use democracy to get rid of democracy and bring in Islamic law. The prognosis is probably longer in the UK than in other parts of Europe but that is the direction it is going in.

I dont quite get where this is going Fergus. Am i right in thinking that the main concern you have is that because there are not enough non-muslim babies being conceived, there is a danger that islamic Law will be brought in to the UK. I cant find data on muslim v christian birth rates in the UK (it would be interesting to see your source), but as they form apparently around 3.3% of the population (including apostates), I think the baby boom is going to have to be spectacular to worry us or our Grandchildren. That said, I would completely agree that there has to be constant vigilance agianst any kind of religious driven input into law or governance.

Or education.

[PeeJay]

This article seems to say the opposite. :confused:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0120/Why-German-public-schools-now-teach-Islam


Not really, although the theory of the separation from church and state in Germany is "ropey", to say the least. Lots of room for improvement here!

I've no real problem with schools teaching/discussing religions, as long as it's not actually practising a religion in the school - TC has it spot on again.

[HibeeEmma]

I think more than the swallowing water aspect, these are children who are not eating during the day, I don't think there should be any kind of sport which they should be doing.

[Speedy]

Given that the school holidays in England usually start at the end of July, and finish the first week in September, surely school pupils observing Ramadan will only be fasting for a week when they return to school. An overreaction right enough.

Ramadan is at a different time each year.


I think more than the swallowing water aspect, these are children who are not eating during the day, I don't think there should be any kind of sport which they should be doing.

Good point and I would agree that is not very safe. However, I think the whole point of it is to suffer in the same way that some others would so I suppose that would include being involved in physical activity with no food or water.

Although, to be honest I don't really see the point in it so I may not be the best person to comment.

[speedy_gonzales]

Seeing as this was originally about muslims & swimming (or not), can someone explain to me why 'public baths' have muslim only hours, along with ladies hours and over 50's hours?
Something that always struck me strange, coming from a mid 30's married man, hetro and agnostic, when do I get my hour:greengrin

Seriously though, do we still live in a time where we are too prudish to share water with others in our swimming cossies?

[CropleyWasGod]

Taking the German theme a bit further, albeit away from swimming and back to fitba, this caught my eye...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/2010-07-28-3639961274_x.htm?csp=34sports&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomSoccer-TopStories+%28Sports+-+Soccer+-+Top+Stories%29

The interesting bit for me is the "making good" part... when one misses a day, one can make it up later. I had always understood that to be the case, and I know British Muslims that take advantage of it.

Is Zouma Sunni or Shia? :rolleyes:

[TariqE]

Taking the German theme a bit further, albeit away from swimming and back to fitba, this caught my eye...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/2010-07-28-3639961274_x.htm?csp=34sports&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomSoccer-TopStories+%28Sports+-+Soccer+-+Top+Stories%29

The interesting bit for me is the "making good" part... when one misses a day, one can make it up later. I had always understood that to be the case, and I know British Muslims that take advantage of it.

Is Zouma Sunni or Shia? :rolleyes:

Almost certainly Sunni.

[deeks01]

normally I'd be up in arms at decisions like this but to be fair it doesn't seem to bad. On the one hand its only fair to those whos parents won't let them swim to let them do another activity. But on the other actually producing guidelines for this is way to far!

just a thought but the only time I ever got swimming lessons was at the primary school , jeez long time ago now lol , and in my experience muslims don't really start participating in ramadan till they're in their teens! Could be a fuss over nothing then?