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johncrobertson@
11-07-2010, 09:58 PM
I could not have lived with the thought that Mark Van Bommel was a world cup winner. And what about the English representative in the final that the commentators kept going on about - Howard Webb is a bottler!! At least 2 Dutch players should have been off in the first half - Van Bommel and De Jong. At least the team that played football won.:thumbsup:

Betty Boop
11-07-2010, 10:01 PM
I could not have lived with the thought that Mark Van Bommel was a world cup winner. And what about the English representative in the final that the commentators kept going on about - Howard Webb is a bottler!! At least 2 Dutch players should have been off in the first half - Van Bommel and De Jong. At least the team that played football won.:thumbsup:

Unbelievable that De Jong wasn't sent off. The Dutch tried to kick Spain off the park.

woody47
11-07-2010, 10:04 PM
I could not have lived with the thought that Mark Van Bommel was a world cup winner. And what about the English representative in the final that the commentators kept going on about - Howard Webb is a bottler!! At least 2 Dutch players should have been off in the first half - Van Bommel and De Jong. At least the team that played football won.:thumbsup:

And that greetin faced dick Roben should have got a second yellow when he kicked the ball away.
So glad Spain won as I lived over that way for nearly 20 years and have a soft spot for them.

heretoday
11-07-2010, 10:06 PM
It's hard to tell with some of the challenges. The Spanish are good at diving the same as all teams.

johncrobertson@
11-07-2010, 10:07 PM
And that greetin faced dick Roben should have got a second yellow when he kicked the ball away.
So glad Spain won as I lived over that way for nearly 20 years and have a soft spot for them.

Spot on and Webb booked Xavi for kicking the ball away after Robben got away with it - what was that about?

jdships
11-07-2010, 10:10 PM
It's hard to tell with some of the challenges. The Spanish are good at diving the same as all teams.

Even given we have the luxury of at least five replays on each foul you must be joking !!!!!!!
The first half Dutch performance was cynical to say the least .
"A victory for football" as the OP rightly says
:thumbsup:

basehibby
11-07-2010, 10:11 PM
I could not have lived with the thought that Mark Van Bommel was a world cup winner. And what about the English representative in the final that the commentators kept going on about - Howard Webb is a bottler!! At least 2 Dutch players should have been off in the first half - Van Bommel and De Jong. At least the team that played football won.:thumbsup:

:agree: I started out wanting the Dutch to win it but their unsporting behaviour makes me feel justice was done so congratulations and well done to Spain.

As for the ref - I thought his job was made very difficult by the Dutch approach to the game - if he flashed the cards too readilly he would have been accused of spoiling the contest in some quarters. He definately made some mistakes though and the Dutch were very lucky still to have 11 on the park at HT.

You also must remember though that Van Bommel has been conning refs left right and centre throughout the whole tourney - so for me the ref scraped pass marks in what was a very difficult game to handle.

Jonnyboy
11-07-2010, 10:14 PM
That match proved that Howard Webb failed to apply the rules of the game correctly. It matters not whether it was Spain v Holland in the World Cup Final or Burton Albion v Shrewsbury in League Two in England the 'rules' applied by Webb in South Africa would have had him roundly condemned in his own country if applied there.

I was mega disappointed in the Dutch as I'm pretty sure they could have given Spain a run for their money without resorting to GBH

CropleyWasGod
11-07-2010, 10:16 PM
That match proved that Howard Webb failed to apply the rules of the game correctly. It matters not whether it was Spain v Holland in the World Cup Final or Burton Albion v Shrewsbury in League Two in England the 'rules' applied by Webb in South Africa would have had him roundly condemned in his own country if applied there.

I was mega disappointed in the Dutch as I'm pretty sure they could have given Spain a run for their money without resorting to GBH

I wouldn't be surprised, J, if pressure was put on HW to make this a "showpiece" by being lenient. In the event, of course, it would probably have been a better spectacle if he HAD sent at least one off.

blackpoolhibs
11-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Dont care about any victory for football, i had £20 Spain to win in extra time, 9/1. This world cup has been fantastic betting wise. Just had a look at all my bets from day 1, and i am £720 up. QUALITY. :greengrin

blackpoolhibs
11-07-2010, 10:25 PM
I wouldn't be surprised, J, if pressure was put on HW to make this a "showpiece" by being lenient. In the event, of course, it would probably have been a better spectacle if he HAD sent at least one off.

He did. :greengrin

CropleyWasGod
11-07-2010, 10:27 PM
He did. :greengrin

Och, FRO. You know what I meant.

Insert grey moment smiley.... :greengrin

johncrobertson@
11-07-2010, 10:28 PM
Dont care about any victory for football, i had £20 Spain to win in extra time, 9/1. This world cup has been fantastic betting wise. Just had a look at all my bets from day 1, and i am £720 up. QUALITY. :greengrin

Come on Blackpool Hibs - we all know you put great football before personal gain!!!

hibbie02
11-07-2010, 10:29 PM
Well if that is what Dutch football has become, then total football is dead. Total thuggery and deception seem to have taken over. I thought Uruguay were the worst cloggers in football!!! And as for Robben, send him to the Island of his surname. What a knob!!!

Spain may have retaliated, but at least tried to play football. Holland were so disappointing and killed off the game as a spectacle. Best team won!

blackpoolhibs
11-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Come on Blackpool Hibs - we all know you put great football before personal gain!!!

My erse, show me the money. :greengrin

HibbiesandtheBaddies
11-07-2010, 10:48 PM
That match proved that Howard Webb failed to apply the rules of the game correctly. It matters not whether it was Spain v Holland in the World Cup Final or Burton Albion v Shrewsbury in League Two in England the 'rules' applied by Webb in South Africa would have had him roundly condemned in his own country if applied there.

I was mega disappointed in the Dutch as I'm pretty sure they could have given Spain a run for their money without resorting to GBH

:agree: and I think they must regret it. That was a dressing room decision as they took it in turns to kick Spains best players. Lack of confidence? It looked as if they conceded Spain were the better team, It backfired. Iniesta was immense. After his tussle where he got booked? you could see him just saying, **** it, back heels, cheeky flicks. he's the boy that stepped up and won the cup.

monktonharp
11-07-2010, 10:52 PM
went to the pub today to watch the match ( a tad early admittently) and I thought the oranje had enough in themselves to win it, but the best team won. I thought that Shneider and Robbens would be too much to handle,for Espana~ but got that wrong. There was a Spanish guy,ootside the boozer,almost distraught at the second break and on the moby to someone at home.we got a few guys/young burds oot o' the pub to hug and console him, and when they won, it was unbelievable. sure he wet himself:greengrin

blackpoolhibs
11-07-2010, 11:00 PM
That match proved that Howard Webb failed to apply the rules of the game correctly. It matters not whether it was Spain v Holland in the World Cup Final or Burton Albion v Shrewsbury in League Two in England the 'rules' applied by Webb in South Africa would have had him roundly condemned in his own country if applied there.

I was mega disappointed in the Dutch as I'm pretty sure they could have given Spain a run for their money without resorting to GBH

Just watched the highlights again, and webb was poor. Failed to spot the corner before Spain scored. Should have sent off 2 more dutch players. I just suppose he gave a typical English performance. :greengrin

--------
11-07-2010, 11:22 PM
That match proved that Howard Webb failed to apply the rules of the game correctly. It matters not whether it was Spain v Holland in the World Cup Final or Burton Albion v Shrewsbury in League Two in England the 'rules' applied by Webb in South Africa would have had him roundly condemned in his own country if applied there.

I was mega disappointed in the Dutch as I'm pretty sure they could have given Spain a run for their money without resorting to GBH

Totally agree with you, John. The rules are the same regardless of the status of the match concerned. Webb did the same in the FA Cup Final - Vidic should have walked early one, Webb let him off. That decision (or lack of a decision) had a crucial effect on the outcome of the game. The same could have happened last night.

I started off rather favouring the Dutch as underdogs, but the first half changed my attitude completely. The Dutch don't have to play like that - they're much better than that - but there was good reason to have sent off at least three and possibly four of their players by half-time. If Webb had dealt with the FIRST offender (Van Bommel - no surprise there then) the rest of the game might have been a better spectacle. Some of those challenges were utterly beyond excuse.



I wouldn't be surprised, J, if pressure was put on HW to make this a "showpiece" by being lenient. In the event, of course, it would probably have been a better spectacle if he HAD sent at least one off.

Nor would I, but IMO that doesn't excuse him. He's the guy who has the responsibility to apply the rules, and the authority to do so. The flying boot into Alonso's chest was potentially extremely dangerous; one or two of the other challenges were leg-breakers. I was very impressed by the Spanish response - they held their discipline very well.

The English officials were as good as the English team - not good enough to be present at the event. Since they won the match, I don't suppose they'll do it, but if I were the boss of the Spanish FA, I'd be thinking very seriously of making a formal complaint about Webb. He chickened out of his responsibilities - a coward, IMO.

sesoim
11-07-2010, 11:22 PM
That's the worst Holland team I've seen. Spain frustrate me as I hate teams who pass pass pass without really creating much (four 1-0s in a row says it all). All in all, a poor final to round off a poor tournament - the only consellation is that a new team has won. But it says it all when by the quarter finals I was starting to want Germany to win.

If only Mexico and Chile had decent finishers...

jgl07
11-07-2010, 11:28 PM
Totally agree with you, John. The rules are the same regardless of the status of the match concerned. Webb did the same in the FA Cup Final - Vidic should have walked early one, Webb let him off. That decision (or lack of a decision) had a crucial effect on the outcome of the game. The same could have happened last night.
Agreed except that it was the League Cup Final between Villa and Man U not the FA Cup final.

Webb certainly bottled sending off Vidic and did so again in the World Cup Final.

Hainan Hibs
11-07-2010, 11:29 PM
Not keen on the Dutch with their antics, dives throughout the competition that should all be performed at the Commie Pool, and De Jong should be the next Jackie Chan.

Well Done Spain:thumbsup:

Ants
11-07-2010, 11:39 PM
I thought that the best team over the whole competition won it tonight.

Howard Webb did well, it was physical, but he controlled it.
Dont think that there was too much malice in any of the controversial trackles, just pure 100% going for the ball, but timing wrong. It could have been alot worse.

Both teams had their spells and it was an enjoyable and entertaining football game.

DH1875
11-07-2010, 11:41 PM
Viva Espana :partyhibb:partyhibb:partyhibb.

patlowe
12-07-2010, 01:05 AM
I thought that the best team over the whole competition won it tonight.


Exactly. Regardless of the fact they've won most games 1-0, they have been by far and away the most accomplished footballers in the tournament. It's worth pointing out that they haven't conceded a goal since the group stages and they made the coveted Germans look pretty damn average. Fabregas, Silva and Torres on the bench? Embarrassment of riches.

seanraff07
12-07-2010, 02:25 AM
Did Howard Webb have poor game? Funnily enough the commentators and guys in the studio didn't pick up on that.:wink:

KiddA
12-07-2010, 03:34 AM
Unbelievable that De Jong wasn't sent off. The Dutch tried to kick Spain off the park.

I have seen jail sentences given out for less, that was a shocker :agree:

Keith_M
12-07-2010, 05:54 AM
I'm afraid I wouldn't have been happy whatever team won. The two teams in the final were a victory for anti-football, Netherlands with their thuggery and Spain with their 90's Arsenal 1-0 wins.


World cup winners who scored 7 goals in six games?

:yawn:

bighairyfaeleith
12-07-2010, 07:10 AM
I don't get this love affair with spain, I struggle to stay awake when they play. I know they pass a lot but that doesn't necessarily make it exciting. Much rather the krauts had won, at least they pass with an attacking purpose. The next euros should be interesting as there team will be that bit older and more experienced by then. Also, scotland might be there:wink:

Holland really should have played football though!!

In regards to the ref, I don't think he could have came out of that game covered in glory no matter what he done. If he sent players off left right and centre he would be slated, if he doesn't he is slated. Normally seems like a decent ref, not sure anyone else would have done better.

Danderhall Hibs
12-07-2010, 07:20 AM
Did Howard Webb have poor game? Funnily enough the commentators and guys in the studio didn't pick up on that.:wink:

What isn't surprising is that the English guy's being slaughtered on here!

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 08:29 AM
Spot on and Webb booked Xavi for kicking the ball away after Robben got away with it - what was that about?

I think Webb got that one right.

Xavi kicked it away to deliberately waste time when they were winning 1 - 0.

Robben did it at 0 - 0.

Also, Robben had been booked, for complaining, and would have been sent off for a second, extremely soft, yellow card.

Webb used his common sense. This was the World Cup final. Surely we don't want players sent off so cheaply?

Hibs07p
12-07-2010, 08:34 AM
I'm afraid I wouldn't have been happy whatever team won. The two teams in the final were a victory for anti-football, Netherlands with their thuggery and Spain with their 90's Arsenal 1-0 wins.


World cup winners who scored 7 goals in six games?

:yawn:

Says most of what i think, but the Spanish and Dutch antics at falling over all the time looking to "gain an advantage" and both sets of players "showing imaginary cards" whenever they were tackled, spoiled the game for me. Both teams were more scared of losing the game, than trying to win it. It was a difficult game for any referee to manage, but i'm trying to remember any WCF that's had 13 yellow and 1 red cards before. The "pundits" said he was a strong referee, which was expected, you couldn't have 2 English failures in this World Cup could we.
EDIT: If that had been any referee from any other country, he would have been crucified by the "pundits".

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 08:40 AM
I thought that the best team over the whole competition won it tonight.

Howard Webb did well, it was physical, but he controlled it.
Dont think that there was too much malice in any of the controversial trackles, just pure 100% going for the ball, but timing wrong. It could have been alot worse.

Both teams had their spells and it was an enjoyable and entertaining football game.

This was my take on it.

If Alan Hanson had his way and 2 Dutch players had been sent off, the game would have been over by half time. And Webb would have been slated for not using his common sense and judgement on such a huge occasion.

Is that our priority? The pedantic adherence to rules, instead of an absorbing clash between 2 different football styles?

As far as Spain are concerned, I can't stand it when they wave an imaginary card in the air and crowd the referee trying to get players booked/sent off.

Also, their fouling may not have been so "spectacular" as the Dutch, but it was just as cynical and effective.

blackpoolhibs
12-07-2010, 08:49 AM
I think Webb got that one right.

Xavi kicked it away to deliberately waste time when they were winning 1 - 0.

Robben did it at 0 - 0.

Also, Robben had been booked, for complaining, and would have been sent off for a second, extremely soft, yellow card.

Webb used his common sense. This was the World Cup final. Surely we don't want players sent off so cheaply?

Webb bottled it, he should have sent De jong off for the kung foo tackle, Robbin too. Webb was there to apply the rules, not his interpretation of them. We scream out for consistency, and if two players kicks the ball away, both should be booked, whatever reasons they had for doing so.

Sas_The_Hibby
12-07-2010, 08:58 AM
Did Howard Webb have poor game? Funnily enough the commentators and guys in the studio didn't pick up on that.:wink:

On BBC, Shearer, Dixon and Hansen all said, at half time, that the Dutch should have been down to nine men.

The ITV commentators (yes, I was switching channels!) commented several times on Webb's decisions, saying he should heve been more consistent and criticising his decisions.

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 09:04 AM
Webb bottled it, he should have sent De jong off for the kung foo tackle, Robbin too. Webb was there to apply the rules, not his interpretation of them. We scream out for consistency, and if two players kicks the ball away, both should be booked, whatever reasons they had for doing so.

I suppose you're technically correct.

Had he adopted your approach, however, the game would have been ruined. Spain would have had the game won by half time or Holland would have put everyone behind the ball and defended until inevitably someone else got sent off and they lost a goal. (Also, your bet would have gone down! :wink:)

It would have been a disaster.

The billions of people watching would not have been entertained and ultimately, entertainment is what it's about.

Instead, Webb made difficult decisions, we were rewarded with a compelling game and the right team won.

Win, win.

Danderhall Hibs
12-07-2010, 09:08 AM
Webb bottled it, he should have sent De jong off for the kung foo tackle, Robbin too. Webb was there to apply the rules, not his interpretation of them. We scream out for consistency, and if two players kicks the ball away, both should be booked, whatever reasons they had for doing so.

Maybe he didn't see how bad the tackle was on 1st viewing? Did anyone watching immediately realise how bad it was?

Phil MaGlass
12-07-2010, 09:09 AM
Webb has had a good WC but bottled it countless times last night, the free kick Elia should have had a nd the Spanish went onto score from that incident, also the corner Holland should have had from the free kick, all poor calls. Holland have been poor all tournament except the last 45 mins against Brazil, and were not good enough.Im surprised Holland did not have more than one sending off.

CropleyWasGod
12-07-2010, 09:12 AM
Maybe he didn't see how bad the tackle was on 1st viewing? Did anyone watching immediately realise how bad it was?

That was my thoughts too. My first reaction when I saw it "live" was that both were going for the ball, but that de Jong was reckless, rather than malicious.

On the 17th viewing :wink:, yes it looks pretty nasty....

Lawrenson's comment at the time was... what view did the ref have of it? That's important.... Fair comment, I thought.

SidBurns
12-07-2010, 09:15 AM
I thought that the best team over the whole competition won it tonight.

Howard Webb did well, it was physical, but he controlled it.
Dont think that there was too much malice in any of the controversial trackles, just pure 100% going for the ball, but timing wrong. It could have been alot worse.

Both teams had their spells and it was an enjoyable and entertaining football game.

I was always told the following:-

CARELESS tackle - no caution
RECKLESS tackle - caution
DANGEROUS tackle - sending off

De Jong - sending off EVERY day
Robben - sending off for kicking the ball away
Van Bommel - sending off for persistent fouling

Easy for me to say but if I were ever to get to the level of Mr Webb then the same rules would apply as they do for me now at Under 13, 14, 15 and 16 level.

IMO the Japanese Referee, who was 4th Official yesterday, should've had the game anyway.

Sas_The_Hibby
12-07-2010, 09:16 AM
That was my thoughts too. My first reaction when I saw it "live" was that both were going for the ball, but that de Jong was reckless, rather than malicious.

On the 17th viewing :wink:, yes it looks pretty nasty....

Lawrenson's comment at the time was... what view did the ref have of it? That's important.... Fair comment, I thought.

You'll be in BIG trouble on here for suggesting Lawrenson got something right!! :wink::greengrin

Austinho
12-07-2010, 09:19 AM
Agreed except that it was the League Cup Final between Villa and Man U not the FA Cup final.

Webb certainly bottled sending off Vidic and did so again in the World Cup Final.Both of you are wrong – Howard Webb refereed the FA Cup Final, and had no part in the Vidic incident, as he didn't ref that match.

blackpoolhibs
12-07-2010, 09:20 AM
I suppose you're technically correct.

Had he adopted your approach, however, the game would have been ruined. Spain would have had the game won by half time or Holland would have put everyone behind the ball and defended until inevitably someone else got sent off and they lost a goal. (Also, your bet would have gone down! :wink:)

It would have been a disaster.

The billions of people watching would not have been entertained and ultimately, entertainment is what it's about.

Instead, Webb made difficult decisions, we were rewarded with a compelling game and the right team won.

Win, win.

I have no idea why folk say if a ref applys the rules of the game as they should be applied it will ruin the game? I would not mind if Hibs played every week against 9 men, it certainly wont ruin it for me. :wink: Consistency, is that not what the players and the fans always say they want?

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 09:27 AM
I was always told the following:-

CARELESS tackle - no caution
RECKLESS tackle - caution
DANGEROUS tackle - sending off

De Jong - sending off EVERY day
Robben - sending off for kicking the ball away
Van Bommel - sending off for persistent fouling

Easy for me to say but if I were ever to get to the level of Mr Webb then the same rules would apply as they do for me now at Under 13, 14, 15 and 16 level.

IMO the Japanese Referee, who was 4th Official yesterday, should've had the game anyway.

It seems you're interpreting the laws a few times yourself there.

Where does it say that kicking the ball into the net after the whistle is blown is a caution-able offence?

I do know that kicking it away in order to waste time is unsporting behaviour and therefore is caution-able, but that's not what Robben did.

Biggie
12-07-2010, 09:31 AM
I was always told the following:-

CARELESS tackle - no caution
RECKLESS tackle - caution
DANGEROUS tackle - sending off

De Jong - sending off EVERY day
Robben - sending off for kicking the ball away
Van Bommel - sending off for persistent fouling

Easy for me to say but if I were ever to get to the level of Mr Webb then the same rules would apply as they do for me now at Under 13, 14, 15 and 16 level.

IMO the Japanese Referee, who was 4th Official yesterday, should've had the game anyway.

Sid I think webb only got the gig because FIFA were trying to appease the English FA over the "goal that never was"...no way did Webb deserve to ref that game......

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 09:37 AM
I have no idea why folk say if a ref applys the rules of the game as they should be applied it will ruin the game? I would not mind if Hibs played every week against 9 men, it certainly wont ruin it for me. :wink: Consistency, is that not what the players and the fans always say they want?

Consistency is all very well, but there has to be interpretation of the events on the field.

From the laws of the game.

"A player should be sent off for serious foul play".

What exactly does that mean? Does it matter if it's accidental? How serious must it be?

"A player should be sent off for using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures".

Do we want this applied to the letter of the law every game? Really? If not, why not?

"A player should be cautioned for persistent infringement of the Laws of the Game". Define persistant.

You see, interpretation of the laws is absolutely necessary.

Rules are there to make things work. Not to destroy.

Lucius Apuleius
12-07-2010, 09:45 AM
Still don't understand why players were not getting booked for leaving the field of play after scoring. If this was allowed then surely it is FIFA rules not to book them therefore anybody being booked for it this season should appeal until it reaches FIFA (if you can do that!!)

SidBurns
12-07-2010, 10:15 AM
It seems you're interpreting the laws a few times yourself there.

Where does it say that kicking the ball into the net after the whistle is blown is a caution-able offence?

I do know that kicking it away in order to waste time is unsporting behaviour and therefore is caution-able, but that's not what Robben did.

The laws are the same whether Under 13's, Under 19's, Under 21's, SPL, Champions League, World Cup etc etc etc...

Part of the wording of Law 12 states:-

Delaying the restart of play

Referees must caution players who delay the restart of play by tactics such as:-

• taking a free kick from the wrong position with the sole intention of forcing
the referee to order a retake
• appearing to take a throw-in but suddenly leaving it to one of his teammates
to take
• kicking the ball away or carrying it away with the hands after the referee
has stopped play
• excessively delaying the taking of a throw-in or free kick
• delaying leaving the fi eld of play when being substituted
• provoking a confrontation by deliberately touching the ball after the referee
has stopped play

Robben should've been cautioned and therefore ordered from the field of play...

heretoday
12-07-2010, 11:03 AM
To hear some of the media chatter you would think Holland had some sort of obligation to play an open and expansive game last night.

They clearly got together and decided to blooter the Spanish, taking advantage of the ref's reluctance to actually send anyone off until he had no choice late on.

Tactics like that are part of the game. It almost worked too as they had a number of decent chances themselves.

Ultimately "football won" and the wee Spanish maestros got their deserts but it was a fascinating encounter - not for the TV potato who wants lots of goals and glory - but for any real lover of the game.

vein
12-07-2010, 11:13 AM
As far as Spain are concerned, I can't stand it when they wave an imaginary card in the air and crowd the referee trying to get players booked/sent off.


:agree:

I reckon if a player does this he should be booked, that would soon stamp it out of the game.

Jack
12-07-2010, 11:24 AM
I thoroughly enjoyed the game in a pub, the Footlights, that was full of Spanish folk (and unfortunately a Hibby who thought the Mercer song was appropriate at one stage – WTF?)

Tipped Spain at the start and was happy to see them win.

Interesting stats. Spain picked up 8 yellow cards in their 7 games (only a slightly worse record that N Korea 2 in 3 games). The Dutch had the worst record in the competition, by some margin - 22 yellows (next was Chile on 12 then a few on 11, including Germany who played the same number of games as Hackland) and 1 double yellow = red. Shame on a country that was once held in such high esteem.

Dinkydoo
12-07-2010, 11:31 AM
Spot on and Webb booked Xavi for kicking the ball away after Robben got away with it - what was that about?


Xavi wasn't already booked like Robben....

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 11:46 AM
The laws are the same whether Under 13's, Under 19's, Under 21's, SPL, Champions League, World Cup etc etc etc...

Part of the wording of Law 12 states:-

Delaying the restart of play

Referees must caution players who delay the restart of play by tactics such as:-

• taking a free kick from the wrong position with the sole intention of forcing
the referee to order a retake
• appearing to take a throw-in but suddenly leaving it to one of his teammates
to take
• kicking the ball away or carrying it away with the hands after the referee
has stopped play
• excessively delaying the taking of a throw-in or free kick
• delaying leaving the fi eld of play when being substituted
• provoking a confrontation by deliberately touching the ball after the referee
has stopped play

Robben should've been cautioned and therefore ordered from the field of play...

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was in that section.

Did he really delay the start of play? Significantly enough to be removed from the field of play?

To have sent him off for first complaining, and then knocking the ball a few yards into the net would have made a mockery of football.

The rules are there for a purpose not for their own sake.

Sending him off would have served no purpose other than to assert the referee's authority and prove his ability to stick to the letter of the law. It would have had no positive impact whatsoever.

It would have ruined the world cup final, and deprived billions of people watching of seeing one of the best players in the world.

What's the point of that?

greenlex
12-07-2010, 11:55 AM
I haven't reads the whole thread and apologies if been covered already. I know we all like football to be played in a certain way but the two challenges apart I think the Dutch did what they had to do. If Robben had scored his one on one they would have won. They would be World Champions.

Taking it a step further. Hibs are playing in Glasgow against a better Old Firm side. Yes we all want to see them play good football but I for one, the two challenges aside, wouldn't be upset if we tried to bully either of them and left the silky stuff alone and came away with something.
Our refs wouldnt let us away with it but.........................

I wouldnt be upset of we did it at the Asbestos Arena either to be honest.

Thoughts?

greenlex
12-07-2010, 11:56 AM
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was in that section.

Did he really delay the start of play? Significantly enough to be removed from the field of play?

To have sent him off for first complaining, and then knocking the ball a few yards into the net would have made a mockery of football.

The rules are there for a purpose not for their own sake.

Sending him off would have served no purpose other than to assert the referee's authority and prove his ability to stick to the letter of the law. It would have had no positive impact whatsoever.

It would have ruined the world cup final, and deprived billions of people watching of seeing one of the best players in the world.

What's the point of that?
Agree Dave. kicking the ball away is time wasting. Can you do that at 0-0? Xavi did it after they scored so would actually be time wasting proper.

blackpoolhibs
12-07-2010, 11:57 AM
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was in that section.

Did he really delay the start of play? Significantly enough to be removed from the field of play?

To have sent him off for first complaining, and then knocking the ball a few yards into the net would have made a mockery of football.

The rules are there for a purpose not for their own sake.

Sending him off would have served no purpose other than to assert the referee's authority and prove his ability to stick to the letter of the law. It would have had no positive impact whatsoever.

It would have ruined the world cup final, and deprived billions of people watching of seeing one of the best players in the world.

What's the point of that?

To apply the rules, and perhaps stop anyone doing it in future. It would have been seen by almost everyone, and from 6 year olds to the top players in the world, would then know what the result of that would entail. As a side note, i have been sent off by Graham Poll, it was for swearing. Why is it refs on the way up, apply the rules to the letter of the law, then imho seem to rip those laws up, and apply a new set when they get to the top?

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 12:31 PM
To apply the rules, and perhaps stop anyone doing it in future. It would have been seen by almost everyone, and from 6 year olds to the top players in the world, would then know what the result of that would entail. As a side note, i have been sent off by Graham Poll, it was for swearing. Why is it refs on the way up, apply the rules to the letter of the law, then imho seem to rip those laws up, and apply a new set when they get to the top?

Indeed. It would be applying a rule of the sake of applying a rule.


and perhaps stop anyone doing it in future. It would have been seen by almost everyone, and from 6 year olds to the top players in the world, would then know what the result of that would entail.

Aye right. All the yellow cards and red cards that have been issued on high profile TV games over the past 40 years have really stopped misconduct!


As a side note, i have been sent off by Graham Poll, it was for swearing. Why is it refs on the way up, apply the rules to the letter of the law, then imho seem to rip those laws up, and apply a new set when they get to the top?

I imagine it's because they become more experienced and improve their skills over the years.

They learn to use common sense (http://www.corshamref.org.uk/common.htm#1. Common Sense).

CropleyWasGod
12-07-2010, 12:33 PM
Had HW applied the rules as has been suggested, IMO four Dutchmen would've walked. Van Pummell, de Jong, Robben and the one who did go.

But, 2 Spaniards would've gone too. Puyol (who had been booked for a nasty flying 2 footer) should've got another one when he pulled Robben back at the edge of the box. Iniesta also for his (albeit pansy) retribution on van Bommell.

I do think HW got the "free kick to Holland?" decision wrong. But he also missed a penalty to Spain in the second half.

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 12:52 PM
From here: (http://www.corshamref.org.uk/law12/law12cat.htm)

4. delays the restart of play.

It is not essential for a Referee to administer a caution for every single delay in a game.

Referees need to to distinguish between those blatant delaying actions for which a caution is mandated by the Laws of the Game and the remaining minor trifling delaying actions for which the Referee may use his discretion when penalising a player (or not).

Brizo
12-07-2010, 12:55 PM
Says most of what i think, but the Spanish and Dutch antics at falling over all the time looking to "gain an advantage" and both sets of players "showing imaginary cards" whenever they were tackled, spoiled the game for me. Both teams were more scared of losing the game, than trying to win it. It was a difficult game for any referee to manage, but i'm trying to remember any WCF that's had 13 yellow and 1 red cards before. The "pundits" said he was a strong referee, which was expected, you couldn't have 2 English failures in this World Cup could we.
EDIT: If that had been any referee from any other country, he would have been crucified by the "pundits".

:agree: Brandishing an imaginery yellow card at a ref should imo be instantly punishable by a real yellow card being flashed back. But like holding in the box and diving the authorities only pay lip service to the cynical cheating which permeates the game and which was shown up in all its non glory during the match. Spain werent innocent but the Dutch took it to a different level. And their players petulant antics at the end were a disgrace. The authorities seem unwilling or incapable of cleaning up the game and too many international and club managers are complicit and culpable in the cheating ethos.

As for Englands great hope Howard Webb i just knew it was going to go breests up when the media interviewed his dad , his dads budgie and bigged up his yellow card and lack of red card stats. You can always rely on the neebors to heep unrealistic expectations and pressure on their heros.

Dashing Bob S
12-07-2010, 01:12 PM
Webb was garbage. But at least he kept up the level of consistency we've come to expect from all things English this World Cup.

blackpoolhibs
12-07-2010, 01:20 PM
Indeed. It would be applying a rule of the sake of applying a rule.
Or he could just apply the rules, instead of making new ones up as he goes along. He made himself look stupid when he booked the spanish player for the same thing minutes later. You have to ref every game the same, whether its a park game or the world cup final. Everyone has to play to the same rules.


Aye right. All the yellow cards and red cards that have been issued on high profile TV games over the past 40 years have really stopped misconduct!

Daft comparison. :wink:

I imagine it's because they become more experienced and improve their skills over the years.

They learn to use common sense (http://www.corshamref.org.uk/common.htm#1. Common Sense).
Not imho true, old firm games, refereed by the same refs would get refereed the same as hibs v st mirren, and we all know thats not true. In fact these very same refs have admitted they ref them differently. Why is this?

Hibbyradge
12-07-2010, 01:45 PM
Or he could just apply the rules, instead of making new ones up as he goes along. He made himself look stupid when he booked the spanish player for the same thing minutes later. You have to ref every game the same, whether its a park game or the world cup final. Everyone has to play to the same rules.

The Spanish player was booked for deliberately delaying the restart of play, in order to deprive Holland of time to get an equaliser.

Robben wasn't deliberately wasting time.

I don't think that any player should be booked for kicking the ball in the net unless it's done to waste time or as a sign of dissent.

I'm actually surprised that you think that's it's such a henious crime.


Daft comparison. :wink:

You mean "inconvenient comparison". :wink:


Not imho true, old firm games, refereed by the same refs would get refereed the same as hibs v st mirren, and we all know thats not true. In fact these very same refs have admitted they ref them differently. Why is this?

No idea. I guess high pressure games are difficult to referee and a different approach is needed for the ref to keep control.

The suggestion that all games should be refereed in the same manner as the World Cup final is naive.

I remember my mate and I arriving late to watch his son playing in a school game. His son had scored his first goal for the team a few minutes earlier and was so excited, that when he saw us coming, he ran about 20 yards off the pitch to tell his dad.

Do you think the ref should have booked him?

blackpoolhibs
12-07-2010, 01:58 PM
The Spanish player was booked for deliberately delaying the restart of play, in order to deprive Holland of time to get an equaliser.

Robben wasn't deliberately wasting time.

I don't think that any player should be booked for kicking the ball in the net unless it's done to waste time or as a sign of dissent.

I'm actually surprised that you think that's it's such a henious crime.



You mean "inconvenient comparison". :wink:



No idea. I guess high pressure games are difficult to referee and a different approach is needed for the ref to keep control.

The suggestion that all games should be refereed in the same manner as the World Cup final is naive.

I remember my mate and I arriving late to watch his son playing in a school game. His son had scored his first goal for the team a few minutes earlier and was so excited, that when he saw us coming, he ran about 20 yards off the pitch to tell his dad.

Do you think the ref should have booked him?

Maybe nieve, but still right. :wink: And yes he should have booked the lad, i'd have sent him off for being soppy.

SidBurns
12-07-2010, 01:59 PM
Xavi wasn't already booked like Robben....

Shouldn't make a difference...

SidBurns
12-07-2010, 02:01 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was in that section.

Did he really delay the start of play? Significantly enough to be removed from the field of play?

To have sent him off for first complaining, and then knocking the ball a few yards into the net would have made a mockery of football.

The rules are there for a purpose not for their own sake.

Sending him off would have served no purpose other than to assert the referee's authority and prove his ability to stick to the letter of the law. It would have had no positive impact whatsoever.

It would have ruined the world cup final, and deprived billions of people watching of seeing one of the best players in the world.

What's the point of that?

I agree Hibbyradge (hope you are well by the way!?!) but that is the rules and Robben should know them. He like Van Bommel, De Jong and Schiender (sp?) were lucky to stay on the field IMO.

SidBurns
12-07-2010, 02:09 PM
From a Referee's point of view, that'll be me then:-

* I would've sent of De Jong for Serious Foul Play
* Would've given Van Bommel another two challenges after his initial caution before sending him off
* Cautioned Robben again for kicking the ball away (he knew fine well what he was doing)
* Booked ANY player who waved an imaginery card

The latter in itself isn't an offence in itself but in my book falls under Unsporting Behaviour.

Thankfully unless I reach the very top (doubtful) I can't see me having any kids waving cards about! :wink:

CropleyWasGod
12-07-2010, 02:10 PM
From a Referee's point of view, that'll be me then:-

* I would've sent of De Jong for Serious Foul Play
* Would've given Van Bommel another two challenges after his initial caution before sending him off
* Cautioned Robben again for kicking the ball away (he knew fine well what he was doing)
* Booked ANY player who waved an imaginery card

The latter in itself isn't an offence in itself but in my book falls under Unsporting Behaviour.

Thankfully unless I reach the very top (doubtful) I can't see me having any kids waving cards about! :wink:

And what about Puyol and Iniesta?

SidBurns
12-07-2010, 02:16 PM
And what about Puyol and Iniesta?

* Puyol - an interesting one... As per my earlier post I was told that a (bad) tackle should always fall under either Careless, Reckless or Dangerous. Personally I would say the Puyol 'challenge' was Careless therefore no caution. If Robben had went down though I wouldn't have fancied making the decision! :wink:
* Iniesta - assuming your meaning the Van Bommel incident? If so as a referee I would've either booked both of them or spoken to both of them. With the amount of cards that were flying about I probably would've chosen the latter just to try and take the 'sting' out of things but by the letter of the law two cautions = two sending off's :agree:

blackpoolhibs
12-07-2010, 04:31 PM
* Puyol - an interesting one... As per my earlier post I was told that a (bad) tackle should always fall under either Careless, Reckless or Dangerous. Personally I would say the Puyol 'challenge' was Careless therefore no caution. If Robben had went down though I wouldn't have fancied making the decision! :wink:
* Iniesta - assuming your meaning the Van Bommel incident? If so as a referee I would've either booked both of them or spoken to both of them. With the amount of cards that were flying about I probably would've chosen the latter just to try and take the 'sting' out of things but by the letter of the law two cautions = two sending off's :agree:

Thats assuming you are using the same law as these super duper ref's? :wink: