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Phil D. Rolls
04-07-2010, 10:53 AM
As far as I can see, only one player from the EPL has had any impact on this tournament, Villa for Spain. With that in mind, and the fact that there wasn't an English team in the final of the CL, is it fair to say that the top division in the south isn't the citadel of football its made out to be?

bingo70
04-07-2010, 11:06 AM
As far as I can see, only one player from the EPL has had any impact on this tournament, Villa for Spain. With that in mind, and the fact that there wasn't an English team in the final of the CL, is it fair to say that the top division in the south isn't the citadel of football its made out to be?

I've said for a while that excluding the top teams it's a boring league, couldn't have watched any more than a dozen EPL games in full last season.

IMO they need to stop worrying about being the best league in the world, start caring a bit less on what the rest of the world thinks of them and try and find a way of bringing through more home grown players, how they do that isn't so easy though.

Heard a stat that last season England only had about 11 or 12 players playing in the champions league last season while brazil had over a hundred, i also think it'd do England the world of good if some of there players moved abroad, when it comes to playing patient passing football most of them haven't got a clue.

H18sry
04-07-2010, 11:08 AM
As far as I can see, only one player from the EPL has had any impact on this tournament, Villa for Spain. With that in mind, and the fact that there wasn't an English team in the final of the CL, is it fair to say that the top division in the south isn't the citadel of football its made out to be?

:confused::confused:

mim
04-07-2010, 11:11 AM
:confused::confused:

Is that Aston wearing number 7 for Spain, I thought it was David. :wink:

IndieHibby
04-07-2010, 11:12 AM
Hasn't Villa signed for Man City?

J-C
04-07-2010, 11:12 AM
As far as I can see, only one player from the EPL has had any impact on this tournament, Villa for Spain. With that in mind, and the fact that there wasn't an English team in the final of the CL, is it fair to say that the top division in the south isn't the citadel of football its made out to be?


Erm still plies his trade in Spain mate.

H18sry
04-07-2010, 11:14 AM
Hasn't Villa signed for Man City?

David Silva has signed for City, David Villa has signed for Barcelona :wink:

mim
04-07-2010, 11:14 AM
Hasn't Villa signed for Man City?

David Silva has signed with City.
David Villa for Barca.

Phil D. Rolls
04-07-2010, 11:25 AM
Thanks for highlighting my mistake. I could have sworn that the commentator last night was making some sort of reference to him playing for Liverpool.

So are there any EPL players doing well at the World Cup.

steviecarnie
04-07-2010, 11:31 AM
Thanks for highlighting my mistake. I could have sworn that the commentator last night was making some sort of reference to him playing for Liverpool.

So are there any EPL players doing well at the World Cup.

Boateng (ManCity) for Germany has had a great tournament id say, Hernandez for Mexico showed glimpses of whats gonna be on offer if he can get a start at united next season. But your right majority have flopped tbf, It seems the bundesliga is the major league from this tournament.

SteveHFC
04-07-2010, 11:43 AM
Yaya Toure is getting paid £200k a week for Man City. Which is ridicules.

steviecarnie
04-07-2010, 11:53 AM
Yaya Toure is getting paid £200k a week for Man City. Which is ridicules.

More fool man city, if Uefa get their way, city are gonna flop, and these ridicuously paid stars are gonna struggle to find a new club without taking a massive pay cut, no one else would pay them £200k a week.

Antifa Hibs
04-07-2010, 12:07 PM
The EPL was the best in the world, European success proved that. Now La Liga is apparently the best in the world, even then there was something like 20 points between 2nd and 3rd so I dunno how they got that. For me though the Bundesliga is number 1. By far the most competitive league, fantastic supporters and infrastructure, superb stadiums and clubs with little to no debt, clubs that are 51% owned by the fans. Thats what football is all about. Andy Gray and Murdoch will tell you differently though. Fitba to them is Man City and Wigan. One club getting hundreds of millions thrown at them from some mega rich barsteward, the other, a club with no history getting £50m a season from Sky and that somehow makes them a bigger club than proper football clubs like yer Ajax's and Panathinaikos's etc.

I can see the EPL really struggling. In 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, who knows. It will go burst sooner or later though. The so called big four are well over 1 billion in debt between them, then you've got teams like West Ham, Blackburn, Everton etc, all in massive debt. Something like two thirds of football debt in Europe is held by England alone! I can't see Murdoch's billions lasting longer aswell. The combining of the recession, ofcoms cheaper sky sports ruling and piracy should hopefully see to that. When unemployment is at an all-time high, prices going up left right and center, I can see most people chucking their £23 a month sports 'entertainment'. Then there was OFCOM's ruling that Sky must sell Sky Sports to other providers cheaper, this means less cash. Then off course there is good old piracy. I literally knew about 20 people with legit Sky Sports about 5 years ago, now though, yer lucky if I know 2 people who pay for it, a few with dodgy sat dishes and the rest watch online. Squeaky bum time for the EPL. :agree:

Mon the Bundesliga :thumbsup:

SmokieJoe
04-07-2010, 12:19 PM
As far as I can see, only one player from the EPL has had any impact on this tournament, Villa for Spain. With that in mind, and the fact that there wasn't an English team in the final of the CL, is it fair to say that the top division in the south isn't the citadel of football its made out to be?

This is what i was thinking when Engerlund were teetering on brink before they crashed out. It may have been mooted as the best league in the world (English press again me thinks) but where England have lost out, almost every other national team have surely gained, week in and out these non English players have become so used to the way the England players played in the EPL, when it came to international duty Engerlund were found lacking of creativity, where as the non English players reverted back to their national sides style of play and benefited big time.

Apologies if all my posts seem long winded:yawn::slipper:

Phil D. Rolls
04-07-2010, 12:49 PM
This is what i was thinking when Engerlund were teetering on brink before they crashed out. It may have been mooted as the best league in the world (English press again me thinks) but where England have lost out, almost every other national team have surely gained, week in and out these non English players have become so used to the way the England players played in the EPL, when it came to international duty Engerlund were found lacking of creativity, where as the non English players reverted back to their national sides style of play and benefited big time.

Apologies if all my posts seem long winded:yawn::slipper:

I think the success of the Dutch in particular, and also the Germans has taken them by surprise. Yet anyone who has a love of the game would have known that both these countries had potential.

Tbh this whole campaign has put me in mind of Scotland's naivety about world football and our place in it when we went to Argentina. Basing all our opinions of ourselves on (perceived) past glories.

We are handicapped in these Islands in that the game has been ingrained in our culture much longer. Emerging nations (by which I mean the rest of the planet) have been able to take an objective approach to developing their game. Here, everyone is an expert on football and so anybody who tries anything new has all these people telling them where they are going wrong.

I'd like to see the game solely in the hand of trained coaches. I'd like to ban competitive matches until kids were in their teens, I'd ban parents from any input into the games. I'd focus on developing different components of kids skills, rather than expecting them to know the whole game from day one.

I think a foreigners rule at the top level would also be useful, and a limit on clubs spending to promote a better standard of competition.

We realised years back that we were slipping, but we just don't seem to be able to do anything about it.

SmokieJoe
04-07-2010, 12:55 PM
I think the success of the Dutch in particular, and also the Germans has taken them by surprise. Yet anyone who has a love of the game would have known that both these countries had potential.

Tbh this whole campaign has put me in mind of Scotland's naivety about world football and our place in it when we went to Argentina. Basing all our opinions of ourselves on (perceived) past glories.

We are handicapped in these Islands in that the game has been ingrained in our culture much longer. Emerging nations (by which I mean the rest of the planet) have been able to take an objective approach to developing their game. Here, everyone is an expert on football and so anybody who tries anything new has all these people telling them where they are going wrong.

I'd like to see the game solely in the hand of trained coaches. I'd like to ban competitive matches until kids were in their teens, I'd ban parents from any input into the games. I'd focus on developing different components of kids skills, rather than expecting them to know the whole game from day one.

I think a foreigners rule at the top level would also be useful, and a limit on clubs spending to promote a better standard of competition.

We realised years back that we were slipping, but we just don't seem to be able to do anything about it.

Irn-Bru has my vote to get scotland back in the big time of the international stage, with their Bru-zil adds:wink:

Phil D. Rolls
04-07-2010, 12:58 PM
Irn-Bru has my vote to get scotland back in the big time of the international stage, with their Bru-zil adds:wink:

What's the chances of that ever happening when the SFA is run by people like Hugh Tennant, and his monkeys?

SmokieJoe
04-07-2010, 01:10 PM
What's the chances of that ever happening when the SFA is run by people like Hugh Tennant, and his monkeys?

catagorically, 100%, what you get in a convent....none!, the single biggest error made in scottish/national team football was the redevelopment of hampden. what cost financially? and what cost to scottish football, just to keep the glasgow based gravy train happy. they are set in their ways, and have no real reason to change.

SmokieJoe
04-07-2010, 01:16 PM
catagorically, 100%, what you get in a convent....none!, the single biggest error made in scottish/national team football was the redevelopment of hampden. what cost financially? and what cost to scottish football, just to keep the glasgow based gravy train happy. they are set in their ways, and have no real reason to change.

Sorry to go off thread and rant on a bit, having hampden where it is suites 2 clubs out of 12, having a national stadium 30 miles east/northeast of glasow suits 10 out of 12 clubs. fat cats get to keep their easy wages without progressing the scottish national team.

H18sry
04-07-2010, 01:45 PM
Thanks for highlighting my mistake. I could have sworn that the commentator last night was making some sort of reference to him playing for Liverpool.

So are there any EPL players doing well at the World Cup.

:agree: Dirk Kyut has been outstanding for the Dutch :wink:

Baldy Foghorn
04-07-2010, 01:46 PM
Van Persie has done well

(((Fergus)))
04-07-2010, 01:53 PM
Of the teams that progressed from the groups, the players (full squad) were drawn from the following leagues:

England: 17%
Germany: 14%
Spain: 12%
Italy: 9%
Japan: 6%
Mexico: 6%
Portugal: 5%
Netherlands: 5%
South Korea: 4%
Argentina: 3%
Chile: 3%
France: 2%
Turkey: 2%
Brazil: 2%
Russia: 1%
Scotland: 1%
Greece: 1%
Paraguay: 1%
USA: 1%
Ghana: <1%
Colombia: <1%
Norway: <1%
Romania: <1%
Slovakia: <1%
Uruguay: <1%
Belgium: <1%
China: <1%
Czech Republic: <1%
Denmark: <1%
Ecuador: <1%
Egypt: <1%
Saudi Arabia: <1%
Poland: <1%
Qatar: <1%
South Africa: <1%
Sweden: <1%
Switzerland: <1%
UAE: <1%

Of the winning teams in Round 2, the fielded players came from the following leagues:

Germany: 20%
Spain: 20%
England: 13%
Italy: 13%
Netherlands: 6%
Portugal: 5%
France: 4%
Argentina: 4%
Brazil: 3%
Chile: 2%
Mexico: 2%
Belgium: 1%
Ecuador: 1%
Ghana: 1%
Greece: 1%
Norway: 1%
Paraguay: 1%
South Africa: 1%
Switzerland: 1%
Turkey: 1%
Uruguay: 1%

Of the winning teams in the QFs, the fielded players came from the following leagues:

Germany: 29%
Spain: 24%
England: 11%
Netherlands: 11%
Italy: 7%
Chile: 6%
Portugal: 3%
Brazil: 2%
France: 2%
Turkey: 2%
Uruguay: 2%

Summary:

From Group 1st/2nd to Round 2 to QF, the percentage change is as follows:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q191/secallen/WCleagues.jpg

EDIT: In case you can't see that image: http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q191/secallen/WCleagues.jpg?t=1278251686

Bundesliga and La Liga are clear leaders.

EPL is a tired old slag.

Dashing Bob S
04-07-2010, 02:08 PM
The EPL was the best in the world, European success proved that. Now La Liga is apparently the best in the world, even then there was something like 20 points between 2nd and 3rd so I dunno how they got that. For me though the Bundesliga is number 1. By far the most competitive league, fantastic supporters and infrastructure, superb stadiums and clubs with little to no debt, clubs that are 51% owned by the fans. Thats what football is all about. Andy Gray and Murdoch will tell you differently though. Fitba to them is Man City and Wigan. One club getting hundreds of millions thrown at them from some mega rich barsteward, the other, a club with no history getting £50m a season from Sky and that somehow makes them a bigger club than proper football clubs like yer Ajax's and Panathinaikos's etc.

I can see the EPL really struggling. In 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, who knows. It will go burst sooner or later though. The so called big four are well over 1 billion in debt between them, then you've got teams like West Ham, Blackburn, Everton etc, all in massive debt. Something like two thirds of football debt in Europe is held by England alone! I can't see Murdoch's billions lasting longer aswell. The combining of the recession, ofcoms cheaper sky sports ruling and piracy should hopefully see to that. When unemployment is at an all-time high, prices going up left right and center, I can see most people chucking their £23 a month sports 'entertainment'. Then there was OFCOM's ruling that Sky must sell Sky Sports to other providers cheaper, this means less cash. Then off course there is good old piracy. I literally knew about 20 people with legit Sky Sports about 5 years ago, now though, yer lucky if I know 2 people who pay for it, a few with dodgy sat dishes and the rest watch online. Squeaky bum time for the EPL. :agree:

Mon the Bundesliga :thumbsup:

:top marks

Great post, especially about the Bundesliga. All Germany's players come from that league, which we are led to believe is no 4, way behind the Premiership, La Liga and Seria A.

The Premiership has had its day, it was artificially bloated by Murdoch's millions only by virtue of the fact that in the emergent media-led globalisation epoch, it was English speaking and thus seen as more broadcast friendly. Now that most of the West and beyond have English as a second lingo, its appeal is more limited, and as you say, it's hard to see Murdoch bailing it out much longer in a recession. I expect a lot of wailing when this juicy teat is taken away.

The only foreign 'stars' interested in England now are ones coming to the end of their career and looking for a payday, and the young child stars induced through youth system backhanders or big transfer fees from smaller (read poorer) clubs across the globe. As soon as they hit maturity, they are looking for a move to La Liga. If Nani at Man U suddenly shot into the Ronaldo class, he'd be engineering a move to Barca or Real before you could say 'brown envelope'.

Some people might be taken in by Lord Haw-Haw Andy Gray's breathless superlatives, but most of us know that watching Stoke-Wigan isn't that much of a richer experience than watching St Mirren -Falkirk, when it should be like visiting another galaxy when you consider the financial disparities.

English football needs to get over itself, though I hope that doesn't happen. I quite like their league producing a consistently under-achieving international side.

sh00byd00
04-07-2010, 02:44 PM
Van Persie has done well

Really? Just goes to show different people see different things.

Netherlands only really picked up when Robben returned. Before then they were largely anonymous by their standards. whilst obviously grinding out 1-nils of course.

That aside, it's really embarrassing how the English still talk about Rooney still being up there with the likes of Ronaldo, Messi et al. Never has been and if this WC and previous internationals have shown one thing he never will be.

steviecarnie
04-07-2010, 03:42 PM
Bundesliga and La Liga are clear leaders.

EPL is a tired old slag.

nice stats but all you've proved with that is England are *****, if they had progressed to this stage what would the percentage be??? U've also proved with those stats that spain and germany have outstanding squads as we all knew anyway. how many players that progressed to the QF actually play in la liga or bundesliga outside of the spain and germany squads, it wont be many i dont expect.

Phil D. Rolls
04-07-2010, 03:45 PM
:agree: Dirk Kyut has been outstanding for the Dutch :wink:

I'll give you Kuyt.


Van Persie has done well

Fair point, both these guys are potential finalists - and how the media will remind us what league they play in.


Really? Just goes to show different people see different things.

Netherlands only really picked up when Robben returned. Before then they were largely anonymous by their standards. whilst obviously grinding out 1-nils of course.

That aside, it's really embarrassing how the English still talk about Rooney still being up there with the likes of Ronaldo, Messi et al. Never has been and if this WC and previous internationals have shown one thing he never will be.

Robben has been public enemy #1 alongside Forlan. To listen to the commentators you'd think the guys had been wage thiefs.

I think Rooney is a good player. Like some of the others who have struggled in this tournament, such as Torres, I think playing in the best league in the world has burnt him out.

steviecarnie
04-07-2010, 03:49 PM
I think Rooney is a good player. Like some of the others who have struggled in this tournament, such as Torres, I think playing in the best league in the world has burnt him out.

100% agree, i dunno why the FA and SFA for that matter, persist in making players play a full season without a break, every other major league has a break, its proven that players are 40% more likely to pick up injuries in the last months of the season than those who have had a break. Would it make any difference to our lives if a season was to finish 2/3weeks later?

Leicester Fan
04-07-2010, 03:53 PM
100% agree, i dunno why the FA and SFA for that matter, persist in making players play a full season without a break, every other major league has a break, its proven that players are 40% more likely to pick up injuries in the last months of the season than those who have had a break. Would it make any difference to our lives if a season was to finish 2/3weeks later?
I t would this season. The players would of had even less of a break before the tournament.

Also if we had a break in England all the top teams would fly out to the far East for a lucrative friendly, thereby making it worse/pointless.

steviecarnie
04-07-2010, 04:04 PM
I t would this season. The players would of had even less of a break before the tournament.

What about the spanish la liga (38games) german bundesliga (34games) which have a break and still finished in May - hasnt done them any harm.


Also if we had a break in England all the top teams would fly out to the far East for a lucrative friendly, thereby making it worse/pointless.

theres a difference from playing a friendly, than the rigurs of a premiership match, even getting out the country and too sunnier climates can be beneficial, i know where id rather be in january.

ScottB
04-07-2010, 04:47 PM
I've noticed they've really ramped up the EPL is the best league in the world chat since they got out. Also talking up players from that league and dismissing others, such as when Persie got hooked for Huntelaar, any player not from the EPL is dismissed. It was why they were convinced they'd steamroll Germany, the pundits didn't know any of them since they don't play in England.

The Premiership is dull, for all their talk of competition, last season is the first time in how many years the top 4 has been different? Only 4 clubs have ever won the EPL, yet they mock our league for having 2 winners? 2 out of 12 or 4 out of 20 sounds pretty similar to me... Just about every club outside those chasing the Champions League tends to play boring, negative football. Sure, Arsenal and Man Utd can play some beautiful stuff, but who would actually want to watch Stoke v Hull or the likes? It is in many ways just a scaled up SPL with all the same problems!

Phil D. Rolls
04-07-2010, 05:03 PM
I've noticed they've really ramped up the EPL is the best league in the world chat since they got out. Also talking up players from that league and dismissing others, such as when Persie got hooked for Huntelaar, any player not from the EPL is dismissed. It was why they were convinced they'd steamroll Germany, the pundits didn't know any of them since they don't play in England.

The Premiership is dull, for all their talk of competition, last season is the first time in how many years the top 4 has been different? Only 4 clubs have ever won the EPL, yet they mock our league for having 2 winners? 2 out of 12 or 4 out of 20 sounds pretty similar to me... Just about every club outside those chasing the Champions League tends to play boring, negative football. Sure, Arsenal and Man Utd can play some beautiful stuff, but who would actually want to watch Stoke v Hull or the likes? It is in many ways just a scaled up SPL with all the same problems!

It's nearly 60 years since Hungary humiliated them at Wembley, yet they are still making the same mistake of dismissing anyone outside their shores as not worthwhile.

I think the worst thing about the coverage is that they could tell us a player's club side when the teams are announced. It would let us guage how good teams in other countries are. Instead we are treated to parochial jongoism.

The worst manifestation of this lazy reporting is the tendency to use the term "African" as an all encompassing term for teams from that continent. The assumption is that Africa is one homogenous mass instead of regions and countries with their own unique style and culture.

heretoday
04-07-2010, 06:41 PM
When it's good the Prem is very good. When it's bad it's Wigan v Wolves on a wet wednesday night.

ballengeich
04-07-2010, 06:55 PM
The worst manifestation of this lazy reporting is the tendency to use the term "African" as an all encompassing term for teams from that continent. The assumption is that Africa is one homogenous mass instead of regions and countries with their own unique style and culture.

:top marks, but note that the same ignorance applies to commentators when discussing Europe. Our continent consists of three entities - the British, the Continentals and the Scandinavians.

Leicester Fan
04-07-2010, 07:07 PM
Only 4 clubs have ever won the EPL, yet they mock our league for having 2 winners? 2 out of 12 or 4 out of 20 sounds pretty similar to me...

So you are saying that if there were 20 teams in the SPL Celtic and Rangers wouldn't win it every year?

SmokieJoe
04-07-2010, 07:48 PM
So you are saying that if there were 20 teams in the SPL Celtic and Rangers wouldn't win it every year?

Not sure they would tbh, we have the misfortune of playing them (if finishing in the top 6, with our ridiculous split system) 4 times a season and more often than not it ends up being 3 home games for them and 1 ourselves, whereas if we only played the old firm twice a season home and away i think it would make things far more interesting. But as things stand and the sounds from the SFA, they are going to do SFA about the current set up.

Phil D. Rolls
04-07-2010, 07:56 PM
So you are saying that if there were 20 teams in the SPL Celtic and Rangers wouldn't win it every year?

Four times a year has definitely worked to their advantage. In the last 35 years, only Aberdeen and Dundee United have managed to break their stranglehold.

Contrast that with the post war period when it was won by 6 different teams in a 30 year period (including one run of three wins in 4 years by Hibs).

Sir David Gray
04-07-2010, 07:59 PM
nice stats but all you've proved with that is England are *****, if they had progressed to this stage what would the percentage be??? U've also proved with those stats that spain and germany have outstanding squads as we all knew anyway. how many players that progressed to the QF actually play in la liga or bundesliga outside of the spain and germany squads, it wont be many i dont expect.

There are 30 players in the squads of Uruguay, Ghana, Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay who play in Spain and Germany.

Uruguay-Diego Godin, Martin Caceres, Ignacio Gonzalez, Diego Forlan
Ghana-Hans Sarpei, Isaac Vorsah, Derek Boateng, Prince Tagoe
Netherlands-Joris Mathijsen, Khalid Boulahrouz, Edson Braafheid, Mark van Bommel, Rafael van der Vaart, Arjen Robben, Eljero Elia
Brazil-Dani Alves, Kaka, Josue, Luis Fabiano, Nilmar, Grafite
Argentina-Martin Demichelis, Angel di Maria, Gonzalo Higuain, Lionel Messi, Sergio Aguero
Paraguay-Justo Villar, Jonathan Santana, Nelson Haedo Valdez, Lucas Barrios

Holmesdale Hibs
05-07-2010, 11:40 AM
The EPL can put forward a good case for being the best given the amount of EPL teams doing well in the Champions League. Personally, I would say the Spanish league has a higher technical standard although I would rather watch the EPL.

I can’t remember the last time a really world-class player joined an EPL team when he was at his peak. Robinho is the only one I can think of but he’s not close to Ronaldo, Zidane, Kaka who all joined Spanish teams when they made their big move.

There’s too many teams in the EPL. I know its good for supporters of ‘smaller teams’ to see Man U, Chelsea etc but the teams at the lower end of the table would not be missed. With 16 or 18 teams the cups might be taken more seriously and international players (includes Scots so wouldn’t do us any harm) would turn up for more friendly’s.

Hainan Hibs
05-07-2010, 11:51 AM
I'd say the EPL lags behind La Liga and Bundesliga in terms of entertainment.

I'd rather watch Italian football too. But then I'm just that bit classier than the rift raft who follow the EPL to appear cool. Give me James Richardson sipping coffee outside selected Italian cafes while going through the Italian papers on Football Italia over Andy Gray and co creaming themselves over the likes of Hull vs Wigan on Sky any day of the week.

Joe's ice cream
05-07-2010, 07:27 PM
Its a very good league, which lets be honest most of us enjoy watching and following teams which play in it.

The debate around the quality of the EPL should not be drawn against the performance in the World Cup imo. I think that trying to use this as an argument for what happend to them in the WC is a little lame and short sighted.

Yes only a few teams can realisticly win the title, but that is the same in many leagues, just look at ours for that, and at least theres went down to the last day last season.

Phil D. Rolls
06-07-2010, 07:54 AM
Its a very good league, which lets be honest most of us enjoy watching and following teams which play in it.

The debate around the quality of the EPL should not be drawn against the performance in the World Cup imo. I think that trying to use this as an argument for what happend to them in the WC is a little lame and short sighted.

Yes only a few teams can realisticly win the title, but that is the same in many leagues, just look at ours for that, and at least theres went down to the last day last season.

It's not just a case of what happened to England though. Most of the EPL stars in this World Cup have been poor. I think they maybe play too many games.

renato
06-07-2010, 11:48 AM
I'd say the EPL lags behind La Liga and Bundesliga in terms of entertainment.

I'd rather watch Italian football too. But then I'm just that bit classier than the rift raft who follow the EPL to appear cool. Give me James Richardson sipping coffee outside selected Italian cafes while going through the Italian papers on Football Italia over Andy Gray and co creaming themselves over the likes of Hull vs Wigan on Sky any day of the week.

:thumbsup: