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KiddA
28-06-2010, 04:01 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8767443.stm

:tee hee::tee hee::tee hee::tee hee:

Music to my ears hahaha

HIBERNIAN-0762
28-06-2010, 04:11 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8767443.stm

:tee hee::tee hee::tee hee::tee hee:

Music to my ears hahaha


It's always somebody's fault, they just can't admit that they are an average team nowadays, nothing more nothing less

:bye:

camhibby1
28-06-2010, 04:17 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8767443.stm

:tee hee::tee hee::tee hee::tee hee:

Music to my ears hahaha

It may be music to your ears but bear in mind the SFA are exactly the same as the FA - we've nothing to crow about here. Chris Waddle is spot on even in a rage! If I were Capello I would stand firm against the FA and the players. After 2006 and the 1/4 final exit Sven got the blame and he walked - who'd blame him. No doubt there will be a concerted effort to blame Capello. I think it despicable if that happens - the nucleus of this squad were around in 2006 - none of them have played to even merit a mention in conversation and to dump the whole fiasco onto Capello would be a disgrace. The authorities that run football north and south of the border stand accused as far as I'm concerned - there is only one person from a footballing background involved in FA affairs - Trevor Brooking - who is there in Scotland? - can't think of anyone!

iwasthere1972
28-06-2010, 04:26 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8767443.stm

:tee hee::tee hee::tee hee::tee hee:

Music to my ears hahaha

Has he forgotten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48h60pKfbg

(((Fergus)))
28-06-2010, 05:12 PM
to be fair to chris waddle and a few others, he did identify the problem: not overpaid players, not a foreign coach, not an English coach, not refereeing incompetence (that got them their only international title, after all), not the henry V speech...it's the fact that 11-year-old kids are playing 11-a-sides on full size pitches, rewarding brawn over brains, kick-and-rush over passing and filtering the skilful players out of the system (through boredom and perceived failure).

What I don't understand is why the FA cannot change this immediately (not that I want them to although my own boy is suffering this crap).

Franck is God
28-06-2010, 05:25 PM
Chris Waddle is one of the best pundits on radio or tv because he simply has a love of the game and wants to see it played properly. He's not the only one that has identified the problem that affects the whole of British football but the position he is in allows him to highlight it to a large number of people.

Our very own JC has been banging on about the exact same thing in Scotland since he came back into the game, its these sort of guys that should be running the game not the suits that simply care about their next jolly abroad.

PatHead
28-06-2010, 05:34 PM
Hear hear

Peevemor
28-06-2010, 06:06 PM
Has he forgotten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48h60pKfbg

... or even http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KEMMfV5-Qg

KiddA
28-06-2010, 06:43 PM
It may be music to your ears but bear in mind the SFA are exactly the same as the FA - we've nothing to crow about here. Chris Waddle is spot on even in a rage! If I were Capello I would stand firm against the FA and the players. After 2006 and the 1/4 final exit Sven got the blame and he walked - who'd blame him. No doubt there will be a concerted effort to blame Capello. I think it despicable if that happens - the nucleus of this squad were around in 2006 - none of them have played to even merit a mention in conversation and to dump the whole fiasco onto Capello would be a disgrace. The authorities that run football north and south of the border stand accused as far as I'm concerned - there is only one person from a footballing background involved in FA affairs - Trevor Brooking - who is there in Scotland? - can't think of anyone!

Yes I agree he has a fair point but the reason I posted this was to enjoy there downfall not to debate how bad the English FA or the SFA are.

Twa Cairpets
28-06-2010, 07:05 PM
to be fair to chris waddle and a few others, he did identify the problem: not overpaid players, not a foreign coach, not an English coach, not refereeing incompetence (that got them their only international title, after all), not the henry V speech...it's the fact that 11-year-old kids are playing 11-a-sides on full size pitches, rewarding brawn over brains, kick-and-rush over passing and filtering the skilful players out of the system (through boredom and perceived failure).

What I don't understand is why the FA cannot change this immediately (not that I want them to although my own boy is suffering this crap).

:top marks. Not often you and me agree Fergus but you're spot on with this one. I take it you dont live in Scotland - soccer 7's up to u12 pretty much across the board now, with soccer 4s up to u8.

dangermouse
29-06-2010, 08:00 AM
to be fair to chris waddle and a few others, he did identify the problem: not overpaid players, not a foreign coach, not an English coach, not refereeing incompetence (that got them their only international title, after all), not the henry V speech...it's the fact that 11-year-old kids are playing 11-a-sides on full size pitches, rewarding brawn over brains, kick-and-rush over passing and filtering the skilful players out of the system (through boredom and perceived failure).

What I don't understand is why the FA cannot change this immediately (not that I want them to although my own boy is suffering this crap).


:top marks. Not often you and me agree Fergus but you're spot on with this one. I take it you dont live in Scotland - soccer 7's up to u12 pretty much across the board now, with soccer 4s up to u8.

I was at a meeting a couple of years ago about the SFA changing how youth football in Scotland is run. 7 aside up until under 14 and summer football. The summer football is coming (I believe) but the real issue is young laddies playing on full sized pitches. My son's team (under 13) played on some pitches that were huge last season and only one that I thought was suitable for boys their age. The problem is we don't have the facilities in this country as we'd rather spend half a billion pounds on some upturned boats at beside Holyrood Palace or another half billion on a nice wee railway through the city. :grr:

basehibby
29-06-2010, 11:44 AM
Chris Waddle is one of the best pundits on radio or tv because he simply has a love of the game and wants to see it played properly. He's not the only one that has identified the problem that affects the whole of British football but the position he is in allows him to highlight it to a large number of people.

Our very own JC has been banging on about the exact same thing in Scotland since he came back into the game, its these sort of guys that should be running the game not the suits that simply care about their next jolly abroad.

:top marks Beckanebaur and Platini have top jobs on the continent and we should have our top bods like Collins in positions of power here in Scotland - the fact that senior players under Collins at Hibs and LeGuen at the Huns (just like Engerlund at the WC) reacted in the manner of pathetic spoiled brats to the professional approach which is common place on the continent shows just how much Scottish football still resides in the dark ages.
As mentioned below, we have FINALLY started implementing a sensible coaching structure here in Scotland at age levels so credit where it's due.
But the rest of the world has moved on apace over the years while Scotland has stood still in terms of coaching and gone backwards in terms of skill levels - so much more remains to be done even just to bring Scotland back to the level it was at 2 or 3 decades ago!

--------
29-06-2010, 11:55 AM
:top marks Beckanebaur and Platini have top jobs on the continent and we should have our top bods like Collins in positions of power here in Scotland - the fact that senior players under Collins at Hibs and LeGuen at the Huns (just like Engerlund at the WC) reacted in the manner of pathetic spoiled brats to the professional approach which is common place on the continent shows just how much Scottish football still resides in the dark ages.
As mentioned below, we have FINALLY started implementing a sensible coaching structure here in Scotland at age levels so credit where it's due.
But the rest of the world has moved on apace over the years while Scotland has stood still in terms of coaching and gone backwards in terms of skill levels - so much more remains to be done even just to bring Scotland back to the level it was at 2 or 3 decades ago!



I'm not so sure about PollyGwen and Collins. Polly's Cameroon team didn't do awfully well in South Africa IIRC. So not awfully well he got the old heave-ho.

Collins may be maturing and mellowing with experience. I hope so, because I don't think there's anything wrong with his ideas. I wouldn't consider him one of our 'top bods' yet, though.

But your point about modern training and coaching methods is entirely valid - too many teams and too many SFA officials simply uninterested in acting effectively to raise standards.

Aspire
29-06-2010, 11:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRuMoH0AXmM

basehibby
29-06-2010, 12:13 PM
I'm not so sure about PollyGwen and Collins. Polly's Cameroon team didn't do awfully well in South Africa IIRC. So not awfully well he got the old heave-ho.

Collins may be maturing and mellowing with experience. I hope so, because I don't think there's anything wrong with his ideas. I wouldn't consider him one of our 'top bods' yet, though.

But your point about modern training and coaching methods is entirely valid - too many teams and too many SFA officials simply uninterested in acting effectively to raise standards.

Fair point that these guys have their faults - my main point though (which you agreed with anyway) was that senior Scottish players lag miles behind their continental counterparts in their general approach to the game - as demonstrated by the mass dummy spitting that took place under both Collins and PLG (and Capello in SA). The reason??? The players simply COULD NOT HANDLE the PROFESSIONAL nature of the demands being placed upon them - is it any coincidence that all these teams and those of their countrymen regularly get pumped out of competitions early when meeting their continental counterparts???

NORTHERNHIBBY
29-06-2010, 03:29 PM
The thing is though, that up to about 25 years ago, we produced real quality players. So many, that boys getting regular starts in what was the English First Division, still did not get a pick for Scotland. No fan of Anal Hansen, was he was a fantastic defender but still did not get a whole lot of caps. So good or bad, we used to produce players with our antiquated methods. Not want to hijack this thread, but IMHO, you can pin-point our current malaise back to the day that Souness took over at Ibrox and they stopped working with coaches and notebooks and went for agents and chequebooks.

hibsbollah
29-06-2010, 03:35 PM
I like Waddle. He's not the brightest, but has no conceit and is passionate about the game. He's also completely right in the things he's been saying since the World Cup 'ended'.

Big Ed
29-06-2010, 10:21 PM
Fair point that these guys have their faults - my main point though (which you agreed with anyway) was that senior Scottish players lag miles behind their continental counterparts in their general approach to the game - as demonstrated by the mass dummy spitting that took place under both Collins and PLG (and Capello in SA). The reason??? The players simply COULD NOT HANDLE the PROFESSIONAL nature of the demands being placed upon them - is it any coincidence that all these teams and those of their countrymen regularly get pumped out of competitions early when meeting their continental counterparts???

I don't entirely disagree with your point, but Scottish Football has been in bad nick long before JC and PLG pitched up.
Blaming football administrators is as easy as blaming referees because they seldom exercise the right of reply and are seen as arrogant tossers by players, media and fans alike.
I agree that the bar has been raised in terms of professionalism and that a significant number of footballers in this country have not risen to the challenge; however there is a multi-million pound industry to be protected here and that involves the vested interests of players, agents, clubs and all sections of the media.
These people are making a great deal of money out of the rotting corpse that is professional football in this country and anyone with any ideas about changing that arrangement better be ready for a backlash.

mjhibby
30-06-2010, 08:30 AM
Chris Waddle is one of the best pundits on radio or tv because he simply has a love of the game and wants to see it played properly. He's not the only one that has identified the problem that affects the whole of British football but the position he is in allows him to highlight it to a large number of people.

Our very own JC has been banging on about the exact same thing in Scotland since he came back into the game, its these sort of guys that should be running the game not the suits that simply care about their next jolly abroad.

He also was a superb player who went abroad to learn more about the game.He is genuinely frustrated at players like terry and upson who cant pass a ball out of defence or how players who are paid probably 5 times what he was paid and dont have anywhere near the skill or the reading of the game he does.At least maradona has players who can play the game and have talent somewhere close to what he has but every england manager must realise that they arent good enough at the top level and great though the premier league and champions league are its no surprise that england struggle.Also inter had no italians in the team that won the champions league and the french did very poorly in europe so no surprise their either.The dutch are always producing good players and its the coaches there that stop them being more successful with internal strife the norm.
Its no surprise that the south americans do well as they organise thier season in world cup year around it and not prepare at the last minute like the english(british)do.The germans saw these problems ten years ago and are now seeing the benefits especially with this team having a few under 21s in it and i would think they have a good team for the next two world cups especially for the 2018 one if it is in england.Of the current england team only cole gerrard and rooney when he is fit are anywhere near world class and the quicker the english realise this then they might improve.Most if not nearly all of this summer signings will be foreign so it will only get worse in the premier league.Shame isnt it.

Brizo
30-06-2010, 09:36 AM
I was at a meeting a couple of years ago about the SFA changing how youth football in Scotland is run. 7 aside up until under 14 and summer football. The summer football is coming (I believe) but the real issue is young laddies playing on full sized pitches. My son's team (under 13) played on some pitches that were huge last season and only one that I thought was suitable for boys their age. The problem is we don't have the facilities in this country as we'd rather spend half a billion pounds on some upturned boats at beside Holyrood Palace or another half billion on a nice wee railway through the city. :grr:

The other problem is that the emphasis on learning skills and expressing themselves which are the ethos of the 4 a side and 7 a side games seem to go out the window when the competitive 11 a side leagues kick in. The minute theres points at stake too many coaches seem to forget that ethos and it becomes all about winning with smaller skilful players being sacrificed for bigger less skilled laddies and an out the park for medals philosophy to win games. For these coaches the main motivation seems to be so they can boast in the boozer and their work how good there team is. Until that mentalitys addressed youtth football will never progress

aberhibsfc
30-06-2010, 09:52 AM
Bagged himself a contract at Falkirk.

dangermouse
30-06-2010, 10:33 AM
The other problem is that the emphasis on learning skills and expressing themselves which are the ethos of the 4 a side and 7 a side games seem to go out the window when the competitive 11 a side leagues kick in. The minute theres points at stake too many coaches seem to forget that ethos and it becomes all about winning with smaller skilful players being sacrificed for bigger less skilled laddies and an out the park for medals philosophy to win games. For these coaches the main motivation seems to be so they can boast in the boozer and their work how good there team is. Until that mentalitys addressed youtth football will never progress

Correct. I've been at games where my son's team are on the end of a right royal humping but the opposition coach rather than play some of his fringe players later in the match will still go for the jugular with a "win at all costs" mentality. Its very difficult to motivate a team at half time when they have already conceded 7 or 8 goals. No wonder there is such a high drop out rate at under 13's

hfc1875x
30-06-2010, 10:43 AM
Correct. I've been at games where my son's team are on the end of a right royal humping but the opposition coach rather than play some of his fringe players later in the match will still go for the jugular with a "win at all costs" mentality. Its very difficult to motivate a team at half time when they have already conceded 7 or 8 goals. No wonder there is such a high drop out rate at under 13's

Why don't you step up then get involved do your badges and pass your ethos on ..Hmm fickle parents its hard to find the right balance.


Correct. I've been at games where my son's team are on the end of a right royal humping but the opposition coach rather than play some of his fringe players later in the match will still go for the jugular with a "win at all costs"

Beechwood Fc to a tee.(not all age groups )

Twa Cairpets
30-06-2010, 10:49 AM
The thing is though, that up to about 25 years ago, we produced real quality players. So many, that boys getting regular starts in what was the English First Division, still did not get a pick for Scotland. No fan of Anal Hansen, was he was a fantastic defender but still did not get a whole lot of caps. So good or bad, we used to produce players with our antiquated methods. Not want to hijack this thread, but IMHO, you can pin-point our current malaise back to the day that Souness took over at Ibrox and they stopped working with coaches and notebooks and went for agents and chequebooks.

Its also at that point though that the long term plans for other countries started to kick in or were instigated while we stayed where we were. I think the major difference is that we've stood still while other countries have relatively advanced.

Just think on these facts:
-Until two years ago, only the Old Firm owned their own traiing complex. Hearts had to compete with HWU volleyball 3rds practice and Hibs trained on public pitches, in winter. And these were our top teams?
- Until 5/6 years ago (in West Lothian at any rate) primary schools played inter school competitive 11-a-side games for as young as P5's. How the coaches beamed with pride when the 15th goal flew over 4'6" Johnnys head in the 8' high goal.
- Until last season, West Lothian had one 3g football pitch, which would cost youth or amateur teams 80 a bounce to play on at council owned Almondvale. Thankfully there are another two constructed now.

This is why we're behind.

hfc1875x
30-06-2010, 11:05 AM
Its also at that point though that the long term plans for other countries started to kick in or were instigated while we stayed where we were. I think the major difference is that we've stood still while other countries have relatively advanced.

Just think on these facts:
-Until two years ago, only the Old Firm owned their own traiing complex. Hearts had to compete with HWU volleyball 3rds practice and Hibs trained on public pitches, in winter. And these were our top teams?
- Until 5/6 years ago (in West Lothian at any rate) primary schools played inter school competitive 11-a-side games for as young as P5's. How the coaches beamed with pride when the 15th goal flew over 4'6" Johnnys head in the 8' high goal.
- Until last season, West Lothian had one 3g football pitch, which would cost youth or amateur teams 80 a bounce to play on at council owned Almondvale. Thankfully there are another two constructed now.

This is why we're behind.

Lets not start the summer football debate lol the goals at my local pitch were taking down last month ???? Why ???? I asked if I could use the pitch for training ! Sorry you may damage it lol just after a gala day with 14 ton trucks sitting on it.

**** it, lets let the boys run around in the winter on a pitch that resembles the somme with there wee hands turning blue and tears in there eyes. Its character building. SFA are a shower eh ******s that havent got a ****ing clue.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
30-06-2010, 11:43 AM
We as fans have to take a good chunk of the blame too. The vast majority of Scottish football fans (and no doubt english ones too) are uneducated about football.

There was a period last night where Spain had the ball on the wing, and basically in order to keep posession it ended up away back at the goalie.

My Dad turned to me and pointed out that Hibs fans would have gone bananas at Easter Road if Hibs players did that. Indeed, i lost count of the number of Hibs fans who moan and groan when the ball isnt thrown forward quickly.

We might say the right things on a message board, but in the heat of the moment, we revert to type and start screaming for blood and guts football.

dangermouse
30-06-2010, 01:27 PM
Why don't you step up then get involved do your badges and pass your ethos on ..Hmm fickle parents its hard to find the right balance.



Beechwood Fc to a tee.(not all age groups )

I already do. Sack the coach I say :greengrin

hfc1875x
30-06-2010, 01:58 PM
I already do. Sack the coach I say :greengrin

I agree

What age group ?

dangermouse
30-06-2010, 02:15 PM
I agree

What age group ?

But then again, who would be willing to replace me?

hfc1875x
30-06-2010, 02:20 PM
But then again, who would be willing to replace me?


Correct. I've been at games where my son's team are on the end of a right royal humping but the opposition coach rather than play some of his fringe players later in the match will still go for the jugular with a "win at all costs"

The pot calling the kettle black

Haymaker
30-06-2010, 02:27 PM
to be fair to chris waddle and a few others, he did identify the problem: not overpaid players, not a foreign coach, not an English coach, not refereeing incompetence (that got them their only international title, after all), not the henry V speech...it's the fact that 11-year-old kids are playing 11-a-sides on full size pitches, rewarding brawn over brains, kick-and-rush over passing and filtering the skilful players out of the system (through boredom and perceived failure).

What I don't understand is why the FA cannot change this immediately (not that I want them to although my own boy is suffering this crap).


:top marks I fully agree here (as work in this area) and I also believe that the school sports system needs rebuilding as well with inner-city schools which have little access to outside facilities adopting indoor football such as Futsal as all you need is a basketball court sized hall which most schools have.

However the EFA wont have any of this even though their own coaching badges dictate 4v4 until 13/14 when kids are no longer going to pick my much about technique and need to learn about the structure of an 11aside game.

hfc1875x
30-06-2010, 02:34 PM
:top marks I fully agree here (as work in this area) and I also believe that the school sports system needs rebuilding as well with inner-city schools which have little access to outside facilities adopting indoor football such as Futsal as all you need is a basketball court sized hall which most schools have.

However the EFA wont have any of this even though their own coaching badges dictate 4v4 until 13/14 when kids are no longer going to pick my much about technique and need to learn about the structure of an 11aside game.

I agree with regards to the schools, they have systems in place for being rewarded if your good at maths, english, spelling etc but if your good at sport there is no recognition, no system to excel in it.

Haymaker
30-06-2010, 02:43 PM
I agree with regards to the schools, they have systems in place for being rewarded if your good at maths, english, spelling etc but if your good at sport there is no recognition, no system to excel in it.

Very true. It is also worth the schools remembering that we have an obesity crisis and that regular exercise helps to improve concentration... making those wee 'uns do better with math too... :wink:

SidBurns
30-06-2010, 05:07 PM
Scotland ARE getting there, slowly but surely. The problem is kids WANT to play on the big pitch and another HUGE problem is parents AND coaches. There is still FAR too much on 'winning' when taking part at a younger age especially, is all that should really matter.

Not a fan of your Hutchies, Tynies etc but they are also helping as they maybe have three or four teams at every age group at least giving kids a chance to play football which is the bottom line really isn't it!?!

Kind of off topic but personally I think the future is brighter for us than E**land, we have decent youngsters coming through whereas I don't see a Gerrard, a Rooney, a Cole coming though due to the masses of money and foreigners down south. Long may it continue! :wink:

Aubenas
30-06-2010, 05:35 PM
With my teacher hat on: most schools recognise 'wider achievement' these days. As well as encouraging talented sportspupils, most PE Departments have a monthly superstar system so that pupils who show effort or improvement can also be recognised. Rotas are in place, where pupils have a range of choices of activities; sports coordinators arrange additional coaching and fun activities outside of school hours; senior students can take Sports Leadership courses where they gain qualifications for practical and theoretical coaching experience, working with younger pupils; HIbs, Hearts and Livingston are all involved with schools at various levels; dance and spin and suchlike has been introduced to encourage girls to get involved. The new Curriculum for Excellence has Health and Wellbeing at its core - with departments combining to teach diet, exercise, fitness etc and with themed weeks to encourage awareness.

Having said all that, there are two constants that schools can't do much about:
facilities, as mentioned. Not just for inner city schools. The town where I teach has some of the best sports facilities in schools anywhere - but: there are, pointlessly, 3 or 4 competition pools within about four miles of each other; my school has no running track, no facilities for tennis or cricket, and a huge astroturf area which has not been updated for years - so is inferior to all commercial facilities. These facilities cost big money, but there is no alternative if we want fit, active and involved kids. It might be wrong, but every other experience in their lives these days encourages them only to get involved if facilities are first class - so we need to recognise that. I'm sure if we had a proper running track we could encourage 100+ kids to be out there training; they ain't going to run round a football pitch
though.

Parents/background: firstly, if parents won't support their kids, get them kit and emphasise the importance of sport and exercise, run them to events etc it is very hard for a kid to maintain the commitment needed to improve and feel good about their sport;
secondly, these needs exacerbate the social divides already present: a well off family are more likely to have the car, time, and personal history that will lead them to encourage their kids to get involved; the kids will have pals similarly involved and they can probably afford to join private gyms and sports clubs; less well off families may have less time, less access to sports facilities, less confidence in getting involved. Like the rich get richer, the fit get fitter.

If you fly over other countries, like France for instance, you can spot the schools from the plane by their sports facilities; every small town has a stadium complex - and kids hang about there on summer evenings rather than drinking by the local garage.

Costs a lot, but not as much as an unfit future!
Sorry for length of this.:rolleyes:

dangermouse
01-07-2010, 08:28 AM
The pot calling the kettle black

:confused: Not sure what you mean by that? I may not be the best coach in the world but I have been in a position where my team were handing out a drubbing to the opposition and I took off our best players to give less gifted players a run out. I'm definitely not a "win at all costs coach". Division four is about kids having fun playing football but try telling that to some of the teams we play.