Something i can't get my head around (Brazil related)

[sh00byd00]

Why do so many people still fawn over them and bang on about how great they are?

Maybe I've been living on a different planet, or merely been living in a parallel universe of sorts, i dunno, but i have failed somewhat to see why many, many people still consider them the footballing messiahs they once where. Lets be honest, since the '70's, they've had maybe 1, 2 or even 3 excellent players at any given time, but what top national team hasn't?

there games are usually dour tbh or maybe I'm just a miserable git. :greengrin

[HibbyAndy]

Won the WC in 94..Finalists in 98..Won it in 2002,..They must be dane summit right chief :dunno:

[sh00byd00]

yeah and France have a similar record, but we all know how that goes...

Also, i'm not disputing their achievements, i'm disputing the fact their football more often than not isn't as great as people make it out to be.

[HibbyAndy]

yeah and France have a similar record, but we all know how that goes...

Also, i'm not disputing their achievements, i'm disputing the fact their football more often than not isn't as great as people make it out to be.

Bit like hibs gawn forward in the Mowbray era :greengrin

[sh00byd00]

Bit like hibs gawn forward in the Mowbray era :greengrin

'Tis true :greengrin

[Jim44]

Yep, Brazil are cr@p. The commentator on 5 Live today confirmed this. According to him, Brazil can not and will not win the world cup after that shocker today. He added confidently that England might just spring a surprise 'in the final'.:confused:

[Borders Hibby]

Yep, Brazil are cr@p. The commentator on 5 Live today confirmed this. According to him, Brazil can not and will not win the world cup after that shocker today. He added confidently that England might just spring a surprise 'in the final'.:confused:

Almost as deluded as a Yam!:wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Every now and then they produce a stunning team that redefines what football is.

[Borders Hibby]

yeah and France have a similar record, but we all know how that goes...

Also, i'm not disputing their achievements, i'm disputing the fact their football more often than not isn't as great as people make it out to be.

France won one in their own country and got to one final, hardly the same. Argentina for me are the only ones with a bit of "magic".

No Elano, Kaka, or Robinho today and a draw was enough. I hope they improve!!!

[adele123uk]

France won one in their own country and got to one final, hardly the same. Argentina for me are the only ones with a bit of "magic".

No Elano, Kaka, or Robinho today and a draw was enough. I hope they improve!!!

I agree...Argentina seem to be the team with a bit of spark in them

[hibsbollah]

Why do so many people still fawn over them and bang on about how great they are?

Maybe I've been living on a different planet, or merely been living in a parallel universe of sorts, i dunno, but i have failed somewhat to see why many, many people still consider them the footballing messiahs they once where. Lets be honest, since the '70's, they've had maybe 1, 2 or even 3 excellent players at any given time, but what top national team hasn't?

there games are usually dour tbh or maybe I'm just a miserable git. :greengrin

Couldnt agree more. Theyve had one really 'flair' team since Pele's time, the 82 team. The rest has been dull, grind-out-a-win football. I'm an Argentina fan but theres no bias involved:greengrin Brazil's 'samba football' is a myth.

[HibbyAndy]

Couldnt agree more. Theyve had one really 'flair' team since Pele's time, the 82 team. The rest has been dull, grind-out-a-win football. I'm an Argentina fan but theres no bias involved:greengrin Brazil's 'samba football' is a myth.

No quite sure thats fair mate...At the 94 WC Brazil had Romario..Bebeto..Leonardo..Ronaldo (very young)..Branco etc..That team cetainly had 'flair' And its certainly no 'myth'

[sh00byd00]

No quite sure thats fair mate...At the 94 WC Brazil had Romario..Bebeto..Leonardo..Ronaldo (very young)..Branco etc..That team cetainly had 'flair' And its certainly no 'myth'

exactly my point. 1 good squad since pele, Zico et al. almost every other major nation have had that sort of squad at some point or another. i genuinely can't remember seeing brazil having any amazing performances in the last 15 years and nor can i recall them being any great shakes before US '94. iirc Columbia were better than Brazil in the qualifiers leading up to that tournament.

Ronaldo (the fat one) skinning umpteen players doesn't mean Brazil as a whole were an awesome team to watch.

Most of the teams that play Brazil show them too much respect and in turn are less likely to give them a proper game.

[sh00byd00]

Every now and then they produce a stunning team that redefines what football is.


Leaving out the great teams of the 70's, I'd be interested to see or hear any examples which backs your claim up.

For example, i'd say Ajax redefined football with their 'total football' theory and which did indeed change how many clubs played the game.

Can't think of anything in the last few decades that Brazil have changed.

[hibeemikey21]

exactly my point. 1 good squad since pele, Zico et al. almost every other major nation have had that sort of squad at some point or another. i genuinely can't remember seeing brazil having any amazing performances in the last 15 years and nor can i recall them being any great shakes before US '94. iirc Columbia were better than Brazil in the qualifiers leading up to that tournament.

Ronaldo (the fat one) skinning umpteen players doesn't mean Brazil as a whole were an awesome team to watch.

Most of the teams that play Brazil show them too much respect and in turn are less likely to give them a proper game.

aaaaabsolute garbage. 2002 team? Cafu, carlos, rivaldo etc. They were electric that year

[pepe]

aaaaabsolute garbage. 2002 team? Cafu, carlos, rivaldo etc. They were electric that year
Front 3 of Rivaldo Ronaldo and Ronaldinho......

[EVENTUALLY]

Why do so many people still fawn over them and bang on about how great they are?

Maybe I've been living on a different planet, or merely been living in a parallel universe of sorts, i dunno, but i have failed somewhat to see why many, many people still consider them the footballing messiahs they once where. Lets be honest, since the '70's, they've had maybe 1, 2 or even 3 excellent players at any given time, but what top national team hasn't?

there games are usually dour tbh or maybe I'm just a miserable git. :greengrin


They are the greatest footballing nation bar none.

To be clear ..... they have won the world cup 6 times - in style.
Great players include PELE, GARINCHA, VAVA, RONALDINHO, and loads more that I cannae think of right now.

So far as I'm concerned Maradona is the best I've seen but the Brazilians are what football is all about.

[Musselbound]

Do people still bang on about them? As I see it now, they've become victims of their own success to the extent that unless they win tournaments and play total Samba football at the same time they are not given much credit. Saying they've had "one good squad since Pele" is a classic example of this. Let's also remember that the '82 side (which I agree played some of the most entertaining international football I've ever seen) did not win, while the teams of '94 and 2002 did.

Maybe these expectations are too high? Imagine if every German defender was criticised for not being as good as Beckenbauer, every Dutch side not as good as the '74 or '78 teams and every England team held up for scrutiny against the team of 196...

So why are Brazil singled out for this sort of criticism? Yes, they were poor today but they didn't need to win the game and in the previous two matches they've still looked like one of the best sides of the tournament to me, scoring 5 goals in the process.

[sh00byd00]

aaaaabsolute garbage. 2002 team? Cafu, carlos, rivaldo etc. They were electric that year

that's where you and i disagree. i'm not saying they were ****, far from it, but they weren't playing dazzling football. wasn't that the tournament where Rivaldo disgraced himself by falling over clutching his face, which btw subsequently saw his career go pear shaped? as a result they managed to beat a 10 man Turkish team 1-0.

I'm not saying Brazil are a bad team and i have never once insinuated that this was the case. I'm simply pointing out they very rarely produce the flair football everyone bangs on about. if you were to believe everything you read, you'd think they play like that in the majority of their games. The reality is, they only produce that type of football once in a blue moon.

Spain have produced better football over the last 2 years and France before that. brazil certainly haven't been pretty under Dunga, that's for sure.

[nonshinyfinish]

They are the greatest footballing nation bar none.

To be clear ..... they have won the world cup 6 times - in style.
Great players include PELE, GARINCHA, VAVA, RONALDINHO, and loads more that I cannae think of right now.

So far as I'm concerned Maradona is the best I've seen but the Brazilians are what football is all about.

5 times.

[Steve20]

Brazil will win the world cup. There it is.

[sh00byd00]

people are still obviously missing my point.

brazil are a good team, a very good team and they have been consistently good for decades, only a complete and utter moron would dispute that, however, they are very rarely the most entertaining team. is that clear enough for everyone now that's coming in here saying they've won this, they won that and they will win it again? :greengrin

Just take this WC as an example. The Argies, Spain, Chile and Uruguay have all been a lot more entertaining.

Brazilian games, like many games i have watched before this WC have ground their way through rather than dazzled their way to victory.

[Peevemor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LLQcReMKSg&feature=related :dunno:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Cannae believe i'm posting this, but, i think Veron has been the main man so far!

[sh00byd00]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LLQcReMKSg&feature=related :dunno:

Yup, and i could probably come up with a 5min Galatasaray vid that made them look a better passing side than Barca.

a 5min vid crammed with the best bits doesn't mean they play every single game in that manner.

[Hainan Hibs]

For example, i'd say Hibs redefined football with our 'total football' theory which did indeed change how many clubs played the game.



Fixed that for you mate:agree:

[hibsbollah]

No quite sure thats fair mate...At the 94 WC Brazil had Romario..Bebeto..Leonardo..Ronaldo (very young)..Branco etc..That team cetainly had 'flair' And its certainly no 'myth'

The '94 team were pretty negative. The quarterfinal game when they beat Holland 3-2 was the highlight. It was all about Dunga in the midfield. Pressing the ball, denying space. And that final:rolleyes: Terrible.

Now Dunga's the coach and he's got them playing the same way. Effective, disciplined, Yes. Exciting to watch? Not for a long time IMO.

[AgentDaleCooper]

here's one reason why. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Player_of_the_Year)

see wins by country. double the number of FIFA world players of the year than any other team since 1991.

although this year isn't as amazing as some before, they're usually the team with the player to whom you always want the ball to go to.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Certainly the current Brazilian team does not have the flair that previous sides have. In fact, when you compare them to many of the South American teams so far, they are quite boring. Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Paraguay have all been more entertaining.

What Brazil do have this year is a solid defence which includes two of the back four and also the goalkeeper for the European Champions, they have as good a chance as anybody to become World Champions, but being Brazil, they're will always be this perception they will dazzle us all with their samba skills. I don't think they'll do it in style, but there's a very good chance they could still become World Champions at the end of it.

[nonshinyfinish]

people are still obviously missing my point.

brazil are a good team, a very good team and they have been consistently good for decades, only a complete and utter moron would dispute that, however, they are very rarely the most entertaining team. is that clear enough for everyone now that's coming in here saying they've won this, they won that and they will win it again? :greengrin

Just take this WC as an example. The Argies, Spain, Chile and Uruguay have all been a lot more entertaining.

Brazilian games, like many games i have watched before this WC have ground their way through rather than dazzled their way to victory.

I agree with this, commentators start frothing at the mouth at the first flash of a Brazilian backheel. Their current team is astonishingly effective at shutting down attacks in front of the back four, and while their forward line lacks the magic of Pele- or Socrates-era Brazil, they are more than capable of sticking the ball in the onion bag. All of this adds up to a team that can't be far off of favourites for the title, but not one that deserves that plaudits for 'samba football' that seem to get dished out automatically to Brazil.

I'd like the Argies to win it, in part because of Messi, in part because of their endearing defensive frailties, in part because they play the game in the way I like it to be played, but mainly because Maradona is such good value to watch on the touchline. For all his critics (and outside of his pure football genius, there is plenty to criticise him for), I have really enjoyed witnessing his displays of emotion - the zenith being when Martin Palermo improbably stuck one in against Greece at the age of 36. The joy on Palermo's face, Maradona's reaction, and the other players celebrating as if they had scored themselves told the story - marvellous stuff.

[hibsdaft]

commentators were a bit daft today - brazil had already qualified so why they were expecting wonders i really don't know.

they are however going to win this world cup very comfortably.

[Peevemor]

Yup, and i could probably come up with a 5min Galatasaray vid that made them look a better passing side than Barca.

a 5min vid crammed with the best bits doesn't mean they play every single game in that manner.

So Galatasaray are as good as Brazil?

[Pete]

Why do so many people still fawn over them and bang on about how great they are?

Maybe I've been living on a different planet, or merely been living in a parallel universe of sorts, i dunno, but i have failed somewhat to see why many, many people still consider them the footballing messiahs they once where. Lets be honest, since the '70's, they've had maybe 1, 2 or even 3 excellent players at any given time, but what top national team hasn't?

there games are usually dour tbh or maybe I'm just a miserable git. :greengrin

People still fawn over them because they are a great footballing nation and always produce a great national team that either wins or is very hard to beat...the latter being more common nowadays.
In the past it was about the samba football but now it's because they have the best of both worlds...and even when they are playing pragmatic football they can turn it on in the blink of an eye.

I get your point but you have to admit there is an aura about them and it's justified due to their consistant performances in major tournaments. You can go on about Spain and Argentina but they have bottled it big time in the past....have Brazil ever dissapointed to the same extent any of those teams have in recent tournaments?

[hibeenicol]

Why do so many people still fawn over them and bang on about how great they are?

Maybe I've been living on a different planet, or merely been living in a parallel universe of sorts, i dunno, but i have failed somewhat to see why many, many people still consider them the footballing messiahs they once where. Lets be honest, since the '70's, they've had maybe 1, 2 or even 3 excellent players at any given time, but what top national team hasn't?

there games are usually dour tbh or maybe I'm just a miserable git. :greengrin

Miserable git:greengrin Brazil are class always have been always will be, it's in there genes. Think they'll walk the world cup. There a team that can raise there game whenever they want to.

[sh00byd00]

So Galatasaray are as good as Brazil?

Don't understand why you asked that question when you know what i was getting at. A 10 second snippet from an individual game doesn't prove anything. Pick any team and i'm sure you will find enough highlights to make a montage of sorts.

I'm sure there was a 10 second glimpse of brilliance during today's game, but we all know the other 89.50 minutes were murder.

Like I've already said previously, it's not about how good Brazil are, it's about how dull most Brazil games are in relation to the hype they receive prior to each match. More often than not, their style of play is a disappointment nowadays.

[1875godsgift]

Miserable git:greengrin Brazil are class always have been always will be, it's in there genes. Think they'll walk the world cup. There a team that can raise there game whenever they want to.
Well, that's not entirely true, as in the 1998 final. They produced a pish poor performance to lose to France, with everybody expecting an epic match!

[Pete]

Think they'll walk the world cup

I honestly don't know where this and the similar quotes above come from.

The Brazil team are capable but they are no better or more capable than Argentina, Holland or Spain. In fact I'd say that if Brazil were playing any of these teams where they both played to their maximum potential then Brazil would lose.

[Peevemor]

Don't understand why you asked that question when you know what i was getting at. A 10 second snippet from an individual game doesn't prove anything. Pick any team and i'm sure you will find enough highlights to make a montage of sorts.

I'm sure there was a 10 second glimpse of brilliance during today's game, but we all know the other 89.50 minutes were murder.

Like I've already said previously, it's not about how good Brazil are, it's about how dull most Brazil games are in relation to the hype they receive prior to each match. More often than not, their style of play is a disappointment nowadays.

Be honest, if you were asked to compile a 'best of' DVD for any national team, and had access to everything that's ever been filmed, Brazil would be by far the easiest to do (or perhaps the hardest as you'd have so much to choose from).

As for the present, whether I agree with you or not, I still don't like missing any of their matches.

[hibeenicol]

I honestly don't know where this and the similar quotes above come from.

The Brazil team are capable but they are no better or more capable than Argentina, Holland or Spain. In fact I'd say that if Brazil were playing any of these teams where they both played to their maximum potential then Brazil would lose.

IMO Brazil had the hardest group to qualify from. They qualified after 2 games then played a portugal team that played defensive the whole game. I just think Brazil will raise there game when they need too.

You are correct though in saying Spain, Argentina but I would replace Holland with Germany, they all have a chance.

[Pete]

IMO Brazil had the hardest group to qualify from. They qualified after 2 games then played a portugal team that played defensive the whole game. I just think Brazil will raise there game when they need too.

You are correct though in saying Spain, Argentina but I would replace Holland with Germany, they all have a chance.

I think the German team is too young...it's one for the future and I don't think they'll get past England.

Call me mad but I'd stick England amongst that group as well. People might laugh at their qualification but when they relax and get it right they can give anyone a game. If they get past Germany and Argentina then you'd all better start praying!

[down-the-slope]

they are still the team to beat if you want to win the WC. judging them as being poor on a game thats only point was to maintain their long undefeated record and nothing else and in which their 3 best players of recent matches wern't available is a bit bonkers.

Brasil (and yes its an S not a Z please) like all SA teams play IIRC 28 matches to qualify for the WC, and are forever being flown all over the place for 'friendlies' (cash generators) as well as having players who play for teams which reach major finals / have long leagues...check how many matches some have played in the last 12 months...its staggering...so yes they don't produce in every game either individually or collectivley (did anyone who watches the EPL think Rooney could be so poor in 3 games ?)
Also the rose tinted glasses of previous WC's of yesteryear is parly something that wall to wall TV has taken away...we know and see all the top players in the world all the time...years ago the excitement was partly watching to see which previously (to us anyway) unheard of player would light up the tourney.....and invariably they were Brasilian...thats gone and we are more likley to enjoy a good player from an unfancied team we don't know....its partly about expectation...so Chilie is the team I have enjoyed most so far..

However anyone who thinks this is not a good Brasil team will be proved incorrect as cup goes on...they will do as much as they have to when they have to...they are the best defensive team they have ever had that i can remember so don't need to score as many...this is still good football..yes its not all out attack all the time...but its effective and wins games

i preffer 6-6 :wink: games but tht rarely wins anything

[Musselbound]

people are still obviously missing my point.

brazil are a good team, a very good team and they have been consistently good for decades, only a complete and utter moron would dispute that, however, they are very rarely the most entertaining team. is that clear enough for everyone now that's coming in here saying they've won this, they won that and they will win it again? :greengrin

Just take this WC as an example. The Argies, Spain, Chile and Uruguay have all been a lot more entertaining.

Brazilian games, like many games i have watched before this WC have ground their way through rather than dazzled their way to victory.

I would argue that the most entertaining team rarely wins tournaments and that Brazil learned from this in the past. It is not really anything new that they are not as swashbuckling as they once were. They may still be hyped up by some. It's normal that teams and games are hyped up especially pre-match. I think people have been making this sort of criticism of Brazil for at least 20 years, maybe longer. So maybe it all comes down to expectations and standards?

Argentina yes, Chile in patches (but they've only scored three goals), but I'd disagree that Spain and Uruguay (although I've not seen all the latter's games) have been more entertaining than Brazil so far in this tournament. In fact, I'd say Spain have been disappointing so far and have played nowhere near as well as expected when compared with many of their brilliant performances over the last couple of years. This thread could just as easily be about them or Germany or England for God's sake since I've seen all of these countries perform much better in the past. Even Holland in spite of their maximum points so far.


Cannae believe i'm posting this, but, i think Veron has been the main man so far!

He was certainly outstanding in what was not a great Argentina performance against Greece.

[weecounty hibby]

I personally can't be bothered with Brasil. Anyone who has been at a world cup final when their team has been in the same group as them will probably be the same. In 90 and 98 the way FIFA and the media fall over themselves for Brasil is rediculous. There was a fans village in 98 about a mile from the stadium, mostly filled with Scots without tickets, the whole theme of the village? Football? World Cup? Nope Brasil!

The media go on and on about their fans, the samba rythms etc and the beautiful women. Well Scotlands support creates a better atmosphere and the Swedish women were even more stunning than the Brasilian women.

The two best sides ever could possibly be the 70 and 82 Brasil sides but since then other than some individuals they have been no better than Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland, Italy. IMO of course

[steviecarnie]

Argentina yes, Chile in patches (but they've only scored three goals), but I'd disagree that Spain and Uruguay (although I've not seen all the latter's games) have been more entertaining than Brazil so far in this tournament. In fact, I'd say Spain have been disappointing so far and have played nowhere near as well as expected when compared with many of their brilliant performances over the last couple of years.

Suggest you watch Spain from last night, absolute masterclass of passing and movement. the only let down has been an unfit torres, the strength in depth they have too is going to be a maor factor with injuries and suspensions starting to be a factor,

Argentina have been a joy to watch too, but that could be because there back four is so dodgy that u expect anyone could score against them, then they'll just have to turn it on and score a hat full.

[Ed De Gramo]

Why do so many people still fawn over them and bang on about how great they are?

Maybe I've been living on a different planet, or merely been living in a parallel universe of sorts, i dunno, but i have failed somewhat to see why many, many people still consider them the footballing messiahs they once where. Lets be honest, since the '70's, they've had maybe 1, 2 or even 3 excellent players at any given time, but what top national team hasn't?

there games are usually dour tbh or maybe I'm just a miserable git. :greengrin

The 'Samba' is no longer with Brazil imo.....

Gone are the days of silky football from the likes of Cafu, Rab C, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Dunga etc...

Brazil have struggled to get replacements for Cafu & Carlos...Maicon and Michel Bastos are not in the same league as you could clearly see when they kept letting the ball go out of play constantly during the Ivory Coast match.

[Musselbound]

Suggest you watch Spain from last night, absolute masterclass of passing and movement. the only let down has been an unfit torres, the strength in depth they have too is going to be a maor factor with injuries and suspensions starting to be a factor,

Argentina have been a joy to watch too, but that could be because there back four is so dodgy that u expect anyone could score against them, then they'll just have to turn it on and score a hat full.

I live in Spain and see all their matches - not only in the World Cup. I have seen some masterclasses in passing and movement from them but last night wasn't one. They scored two goals from two chances and only got a grip of possession after 30 minutes when their opponents went down to ten men. Prior to that Chile had far more possession and were the better team - even Spanish commentators said so. After Chile's goal both teams settled for the result and I don't recall either creating many more chances. Spain haven't been a patch on the 2008 team so far, nor on their qualification performances for this tournament nor on some of their performances in recent friendlies. They've looked like a team under pressure and now need to step up a gear, which they have the potential to do.

I'll agree with you that injury worries are a concern and that Torres has been a big disappointment so far. He is clearly not fit and should not start the next game in my opinion. Argentina have been the best side so far and I'm not sure their defence is as bad as some are making out. They have top class central defenders and have only conceded one goal so far. I think Chile have also been very entertaining but need to be more concerned about their defence than Argentina.

[ekhibee]

In many ways Brazil are over-hyped, no matter how good they are, but at the end of the day they do have the qualifications to prove it, unlike Holland, who lots of people seem to rave about when it comes to major tournaments but have only won a European championship (1988) and that's about it. They, IMO, are more over-hyped than any other team. Another signifcant factor to me is that a lot of Brazillians play in Europe now, there is more opportunities to see them playing in between World Cups.The novelty of watching Brazil, even in 1982, is gone now as far as I'm concerned. Just my opinion though.

[sh00byd00]

Suggest you watch Spain from last night, absolute masterclass of passing and movement. the only let down has been an unfit torres, the strength in depth they have too is going to be a maor factor with injuries and suspensions starting to be a factor,

Argentina have been a joy to watch too, but that could be because there back four is so dodgy that u expect anyone could score against them, then they'll just have to turn it on and score a hat full.

If we're talking purely about passing, i happen to think Japan have been every bit as good as Spain.

the Japanese really have surprised me during this WC, especially when you consider how badly they did in the run up to this tournament.