Murders in Cumbria.

[--------]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/10214661.stm

Nasty.

[Wembley67]

Frightening stuff indeed.

Its unusual for the gunman to go on the run, usually turns the gun on themselves or gets brought down.

Hopefully no more innocents get hurt.

[Ritchie]

CRAZY!!

more info here.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7797376/Cumbria-shooting-police-hunt-gunman-after-several-shot-dead.html

[Chuckie]

Cumbrias very own Travis Bickle.

[Pretty Boy]

Crazy stuff.

Got BBC news 24 on watching what's going on. Seems like a huge area is being told to stay indoors.

[Hibs90]

Shocked. According to BBC news guy at least 4 dead and others injured.

The body of the suspect has been found in woodland aswell now.

[Pretty Boy]

BBC now reporting up to 11 people shot with several fatalities including the gunman himself.

[LancashireHibby]

Read on another forum who identified Bird as "his mate's wife's uncle" and said he was due to be sentenced for fraud and tax evasion soon - mustn't have fancied prison and wanted to go out with summat a bit more dramatic.

Must have been horrible to witness, and as anyone who has been to that area of West Cumbria, it's little wonder he took so long to find as it's such a huge area for the police to cover.

[Hibbie_Cameron]

Sky News have unconfirmed reports that he has killed his mother

[Beefster]

Sky News have unconfirmed reports that he has killed his mother

Apparently she's safe.

Some horrendous accounts coming from eyewitnesses.

[Barney McGrew]

Twelve now confirmed dead by the Police, as well as the suspected gunman.

[RyeSloan]

Sky News have unconfirmed reports that he has killed his mother

Horrible situation but it's soo typical of Sky News to ham it up even more with unconfirmed (i.e garbage) reports

[LancashireHibby]

Horrible situation but it's soo typical of Sky News to ham it up even more with unconfirmed (i.e garbage) reports

In fairness, it was one rumour that was doing the rounds along with naming Garry Purdham as one of the victims (ex Whitehaven & Workington rugby player who's brother plays for Harlequins RL). With the latter proving to sadly be correct then they (Sky) would have a certain justification in reporting it, especially if they did make it clear that it was only speculation.

[sleeping giant]

I was in Gosforth ,Whitehaven and Sellafield last week :bitchy:

Can't even begin to imagine the horror felt by the people in these villages.

[Ed De Gramo]

ITN saying he shot his brother....

Thoughts are with families and friends of those who lost their life today :boo hoo:

[Toaods]

raving nutter(possible Thailand Paedo) with shotgun 13

justice 0.

[Ed De Gramo]

raving nutter(possible Thailand Paedo) with shotgun 13

justice 0.

I just knew you were gonna post that dude :wink:

[Toaods]

I just knew you were gonna post that dude :wink:

I feel it's my duty now...:cool2:.


not much being said about the regular Thailand trips by an otherwise quiet loner. bust up at the Taxi rank the other night and he stormed off in a rage. Taxi colleagues dead....makes me wonder if he's been getting questioned about his activities out there....:agree:

[Ed De Gramo]

I feel it's my duty now...:cool2:.


not much being said about the regular Thailand trips by an otherwise quiet loner. bust up at the Taxi rank the other night and he stormed off in a rage. Taxi colleagues dead....makes me wonder if he's been getting questioned about his activities out there....:agree:

Never knew about the Thailand links.....

One website suggesting that once he'd killed his colleague....he knew that he was heading for a life sentence so decided to make himself unforgettable....

If there's a hell, I hope he sincerely rots!

[Sir David Gray]

Shocking incident. I couldn't believe it when I heard this earlier today, particularly since it's happened in such a quiet area.

Something has clearly gone wrong in the guy's head and it's just extremely sad for the people who have senselessly lost so many friends and relatives today.

Thankfully he cannot harm anyone else ever again and I just hope that those who have been injured make a full recovery.

[hibsdaft]

particularly since it's happened in such a quiet area.

just thinking about that now you've said it, all three of such shootings in the UK have happened in fairly quiet ruralish towns/ villages. other incidents that spring to mind in mainland europe would be the same i think, can't think of many happening in big cities off the top of my head.

not sure if that says anything though :confused:

[J-C]

Been listening all day, all very sad and my thoughts are with the families and friends of the victims.

He seemingly shot his brother the night before and had an argument with other taxi drivers also, unfortunately now he's dead, we may never find out the reason behind it all.

[Beefster]

I feel it's my duty now...:cool2:.


not much being said about the regular Thailand trips by an otherwise quiet loner. bust up at the Taxi rank the other night and he stormed off in a rage. Taxi colleagues dead....makes me wonder if he's been getting questioned about his activities out there....:agree:

I haven't read or seen anything about the Thai trips. Has paedophilia been mentioned or is it an assumption?

[Betty Boop]

I haven't read or seen anything about the Thai trips. Has paedophilia been mentioned or is it an assumption?

I've not read anything about that either, just that there was a dispute about the arrangements for his elderly mother's will. Apparently he shot his twin brother and the solicitor who was dealing with the matter. He was supposed to attend an appointment with the solicitor yesterday, according to press reports.

[Peevemor]

just thinking about that now you've said it, all three of such shootings in the UK have happened in fairly quiet ruralish towns/ villages. other incidents that spring to mind in mainland europe would be the same i think, can't think of many happening in big cities off the top of my head.

not sure if that says anything though :confused:

Probably because the vast majority of firearms are to be found in rural areas.

[heretoday]

It doesn't matter whether it's a quiet, rural area or a big city. A stressed-out guy with firearms is going to do some damage.

He'd had a licence for 20 years apparently. I'm not sure why he needed one. Perhaps he was just pally with the local coppers or, despite the official blather about stringent checks, he just slipped through the system.

Someone made a good point on the radio. Everyone knows farmers need guns to keep down pests. In fact farmers themselves don't have time to go out shooting so they enlist the help of "locals". In other words there are plenty opportunities for guns to fall into the wrong hands.

[Chuckie]

My thoughts are with his family.

I hope they sincerely get over this.

[Storar]

Thought's to the familys

I hope he is sincerely rotting, the unpatriot judas

[Killiehibbie]

If it was drivers working off the back of the rank that tipped him over the edge maybe a few of them will take heed in other parts of the country. I wonder what he'd have done to rogue PH drivers?

[Phil D. Rolls]

just thinking about that now you've said it, all three of such shootings in the UK have happened in fairly quiet ruralish towns/ villages. other incidents that spring to mind in mainland europe would be the same i think, can't think of many happening in big cities off the top of my head.

not sure if that says anything though :confused:

A criminologist on Newsnight highlighted how tensions can smoulder for many years in rural areas. Another thing these seem to have in common is that they are usually "insignificant" people.

[New Corrie]

Only in soft touch Britain do we allow convicted criminals to have firearms, must be a civil liberties thing.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Only in soft touch Britain do we allow convicted criminals to have firearms, must be a civil liberties thing.

Worse than that, it appears we also let them drive taxis. :bitchy:

That can't be right can it?

[Killiehibbie]

Worse than that, it appears we also let them drive taxis. :bitchy:

That can't be right can it?Taxi driving is now exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act but anyone can apply and go before the licensing board for approval or to be told why not.

[hibsdaft]

Only in soft touch Britain do we allow convicted criminals to have firearms, must be a civil liberties thing.

hope your note stirring on a thread like this, a bit distasteful.

[New Corrie]

hope your note stirring on a thread like this, a bit distasteful.


What on earth are you on about?? I find it bizarre to say the least, that convicted criminals are legally allowed to own firearms, how the pheck can that be deemed stirring it, or distasteful? Phecks sake!

[steakbake]

It would be interesting to know how death penalty enthusiasts think their final solution could have averted this?

Second, soft touch Britain: it's quite probably because there was initially a very hardline taken but then reality kicked in and people realised that **** happens - people get criminal records, yes even people who need to use guns in their work. Even decent, daily mail reading tory voters can have criminal records. Maybe a wee ruckus or driving after one flute too many of the vino at the hunt ball and your shotgun licence would be gone, a clumsy tax avoidance or two, unlicenced tractor driving etc. So reality is that people do get criminal records because they do stupid things. However, having a criminal record does not equate to someone being a potential murderer. There's being hardline and there's being stupid. You could never have a system, or at least a workable one, in which ANY criminal record and you can't own a gun. That would just be ridiculous.

[New Corrie]

It would be interesting to know how death penalty enthusiasts think their final solution could have averted this?

Second, soft touch Britain: it's quite probably because there was initially a very hardline taken but then reality kicked in and people realised that **** happens - people get criminal records, yes even people who need to use guns in their work. Even decent, daily mail reading tory voters can have criminal records. Maybe a wee ruckus or driving after one flute too many of the vino at the hunt ball and your shotgun licence would be gone, a clumsy tax avoidance or two, unlicenced tractor driving etc. So reality is that people do get criminal records because they do stupid things. However, having a criminal record does not equate to someone being a potential murderer. There's being hardline and there's being stupid. You could never have a system, or at least a workable one, in which ANY criminal record and you can't own a gun. That would just be ridiculous.


I am sure you could forgive people for thinking that arming criminals is ridiculous. Only on here could a thread about a criminal rampaging with guns could end up with the usual Tory, Daily Mail digs..pathetic

[Phil D. Rolls]

It would be interesting to know how death penalty enthusiasts think their final solution could have averted this?

Second, soft touch Britain: it's quite probably because there was initially a very hardline taken but then reality kicked in and people realised that **** happens - people get criminal records, yes even people who need to use guns in their work. Even decent, daily mail reading tory voters can have criminal records. Maybe a wee ruckus or driving after one flute too many of the vino at the hunt ball and your shotgun licence would be gone, a clumsy tax avoidance or two, unlicenced tractor driving etc. So reality is that people do get criminal records because they do stupid things. However, having a criminal record does not equate to someone being a potential murderer. There's being hardline and there's being stupid. You could never have a system, or at least a workable one, in which ANY criminal record and you can't own a gun. That would just be ridiculous.

The whole proposition that you can weed out people who might snap at some point in the future. Apparently, a GP is supposed to be able to say the guy is sane - but sane at what point.

Regrettably this is one of those things like car crashes and volcanos that you just can't legislate for. I have to say the gun lobby have been making good arguments for people taking a bit of time about how we respond to this.

[hibsdaft]

What on earth are you on about?? I find it bizarre to say the least, that convicted criminals are legally allowed to own firearms, how the pheck can that be deemed stirring it, or distasteful? Phecks sake!

arguments against gun control in the UK (those that have influenced lawmakers at least) have been on sporting/ recreational/ animal control grounds not the 'freedom to carry weapons' as in the US.

i'm not aware of any of the usual civil liberties type campaigners in the UK supporting the right to hold guns.

i think this is common knowledge and found your post odd. you're of an age to remember the post-Dunblane debate back in 1996 and would know this, no?

from what i've gleaned in the last 24 hours it sounds like the authorities have power to refuse licences but rarely enforce that power.

[New Corrie]

arguments against gun control in the UK (those that have influenced lawmakers at least) have been on sporting/ recreational/ animal control grounds not the 'freedom to carry weapons' as in the US.

i'm not aware of any of the usual civil liberties type campaigners in the UK supporting the right to hold guns.

i think this is common knowledge and found your post odd. you're of an age to remember the post-Dunblane debate back in 1996 and would know this, no?

from what i've gleaned in the last 24 hours it sounds like the authorities have power to refuse licences but rarely enforce that power.

Neither am I, but you can rest assured that if a criminal was being discriminated against (even re something not "right on" like guns) they would still be there fighting the criminal's corner, hence we have a convicted thief running about with guns.

[Twa Cairpets]

I am sure you could forgive people for thinking that arming criminals is ridiculous. Only on here could a thread about a criminal rampaging with guns could end up with the usual Tory, Daily Mail digs..pathetic

If that is what people were arguing for then you would be correct.

Listening on the radio this morning, a 3+ year sentence carries a lifetime ban from legally owning firearms, a shorter custodial sentence carries a 5 year ban, and other sentences come down to the deciding Magistrate decision. If you needed a gun for work - lets say you were employed on a farm - and you had a conviction from 20 years ago for anything - drink driving, burglary, assault, would you still advocate a zero tolerance on having a licence?

I think the balance is about right in the UK.

On this incident, you have to think it wouldnt have changed a thing. If you premeditately decide to go out to kill people then you will.

[hibsdaft]

If that is what people were arguing for then you would be correct.

Listening on the radio this morning, a 3+ year sentence carries a lifetime ban from legally owning firearms, a shorter custodial sentence carries a 5 year ban, and other sentences come down to the deciding Magistrate decision. If you needed a gun for work - lets say you were employed on a farm - and you had a conviction from 20 years ago for anything - drink driving, burglary, assault, would you still advocate a zero tolerance on having a licence?

I think the balance is about right in the UK.

On this incident, you have to think it wouldnt have changed a thing. If you premeditately decide to go out to kill people then you will.

i agree with much of your logic there but Bird did not need a gun for work or for any other reason. given that, i can't see any justification for him having being granted a licence.

i'd argue the laws/ regs are flawed if they have not separated the need (for employment) for a gun and the desire (for recreation) for one. then again if we're saying someone with a criminal record should not have a licence for recreation because its not safe then it can't be right to allow such a person one for their job. if we're saying a they are a danger they simply should not get one.

instead the only other way to differentiate would be to make a gun licence for recreation something one loses when receiving a criminal record.

[hibsdaft]

Neither am I, but you can rest assured that if a criminal was being discriminated against (even re something not "right on" like guns) they would still be there fighting the criminal's corner, hence we have a convicted thief running about with guns.

that's just conjecture.

the point is that the laws/regs probably have a flaw that has been exposed by this particular case. i don't know exactly who you define as "they" but i have a fair idea and they won't be defending the right of criminals to carry guns for fun in the coming weeks.

[steakbake]

In a way, I was actually defending those pesky Daily Mail types by recognising that even they, with all those marvellous values they hold dear, sometimes have a brush with the law. It does not make them murderous psychopaths. "Criminals" are not always your common or garden shiftless burbery clad gadgie. Traffic offences just for one example, are in some official situations, declarable criminal convictions.

I think any gun law which prevented absolutely anyone with absolutely any criminal record from owning a gun would simply be ridiculous. It's nothing to do with the rights of offenders at all. It's just a case of realising that people get criminal records for a variety of reasons but that does not necessarily make them dangerous people that the state must protect us from.

I realise this guy did not hold guns for working purposes, or at least, as far as I know. However, to base any future law on what one person has done in an extremely rare occurrence would be ridiculous. Fortunately, life is not black and white though it might make simplistic reactionary arguments a lot easier to win.

Anyhow, sounds like you've become a convert to the nanny state, Corrie? :wink:

[J-C]

Personally I feel that unless you live in the countryside then there should be no need for having a gun anywhere near your house. If a license is given and you live in an urban area, then all guns should be kept at a gun club, locked away safely until needed.

Saying that though If someone decides he/she is going to suddenly commit this type of crime, they'll get a gun from somewhere, it's not too hard.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Personally I feel that unless you live in the countryside then there should be no need for having a gun anywhere near your house. If a license is given and you live in an urban area, then all guns should be kept at a gun club, locked away safely until needed.

Saying that though If someone decides he/she is going to suddenly commit this type of crime, they'll get a gun from somewhere, it's not too hard.

Or machetes, or cyanide, or a jeep filled with petrol. It's not guns that are the issue, it's the fact that humans sometimes flip their lid. How do you predict that the first time it happens?

[greenlex]

Personally I feel that unless you live in the countryside then there should be no need for having a gun anywhere near your house. If a license is given and you live in an urban area, then all guns should be kept at a gun club, locked away safely until needed.

Saying that though If someone decides he/she is going to suddenly commit this type of crime, they'll get a gun from somewhere, it's not too hard.

As part of owning a gun whether it be at a gun club or at home they are meant to be locked away safely.
I remember the police coming and inspecting where the gun in our house was being kept. I am not sure if its part of the gun licencing laws or not but they definately came to have a look.

[lapsedhibee]

As part of owning a gun whether it be at a gun club or at home they are meant to be locked away safely.
I remember the police coming and inspecting where the gun in our house was being kept. I am not sure if its part of the gun licencing laws or not but they definately came to have a look.

Yes it is. Has to be in a certain type of lockable container. Can't just be left lying around for any old left back to pick up and wave around.

[Jonnyboy]

Yes it is. Has to be in a certain type of lockable container. Can't just be left lying around for any old left back to pick up and wave around.

What an odd turn of phrase :confused: What is it you mean by that?

[Bayern Bru]

What an odd turn of phrase :confused: What is it you mean by that?

Throwaway comment about guns being easily accessible combined with a sly dig at Lee Wallace? :dunno:

[Andy74]

As mentioned before a guy who has lost it and wants to kill people will use something to do it with.

I've been away a couple of days so not really seen the indepth coverage of this but how did he manage to go from place to place over a few hours? Was there no attempt to stop him by the police??

[JimBHibees]

As mentioned before a guy who has lost it and wants to kill people will use something to do it with.

I've been away a couple of days so not really seen the indepth coverage of this but how did he manage to go from place to place over a few hours? Was there no attempt to stop him by the police??

I think that is the main question especially when I think I am right in saying his name and car reg was given to police after the taxi rank attack. It does seem a long time 3 hours or so however this is a remote part of the world adn would imagine only towns would have any police at all. As a taxi driver he would probably know backroads to get round the area. Completely agree about being able to kill people if he wanted to do. Could just as easily broke into a farmhouse. and stole a couple of shotguns.

[Jonnyboy]

As mentioned before a guy who has lost it and wants to kill people will use something to do it with.

I've been away a couple of days so not really seen the indepth coverage of this but how did he manage to go from place to place over a few hours? Was there no attempt to stop him by the police??


I think that is the main question especially when I think I am right in saying his name and car reg was given to police after the taxi rank attack. It does seem a long time 3 hours or so however this is a remote part of the world adn would imagine only towns would have any police at all. As a taxi driver he would probably know backroads to get round the area. Completely agree about being able to kill people if he wanted to do. Could just as easily broke into a farmhouse. and stole a couple of shotguns.

It's possible that you guys will now have heard the statement given by the Chief Constable but if not I can tell you it covers your query Andy and partly bears out your reply Jim.

Effectively, Bird made use of his extensive knowledge of the area, often travelling from place to place using single track roads etc. If you add in the fact that in terms of square miles West Cumbria is pretty sizeable then it goes some way to explaining why the armed response units were only able to follow at a distance, arriving often just after he'd left a place to continue his madness.

Whilst I'm not suggesting you guys are cop bashing I do think there will be a temptation by some to do so. The police used all of the resources available to them and even drafted in help from other forces and agencies. Of course they'd no idea where and when he'd hit next and that made the hunt for him close to impossible.

Hope that brings you up to date if you haven't seen the latest reports.

One last thing. I've not seen nor heard any reference to Thailand or paedophilia in relation to this guy other than that posted on here by Toaods. Dave, where did you get that stuff from? It's mighty odd, given that the media is all over this like a rash and are digging in to Bird's private life that nothing of this nature has emerged

[Jonnyboy]

Throwaway comment about guns being easily accessible combined with a sly dig at Lee Wallace? :dunno:

:doh: I get it now :greengrin

[--------]

It's possible that you guys will now have heard the statement given by the Chief Constable but if not I can tell you it covers your query Andy and partly bears out your reply Jim.

Effectively, Bird made use of his extensive knowledge of the area, often travelling from place to place using single track roads etc. If you add in the fact that in terms of square miles West Cumbria is pretty sizeable then it goes some way to explaining why the armed response units were only able to follow at a distance, arriving often just after he'd left a place to continue his madness.

Whilst I'm not suggesting you guys are cop bashing I do think there will be a temptation by some to do so. The police used all of the resources available to them and even drafted in help from other forces and agencies. Of course they'd no idea where and when he'd hit next and that made the hunt for him close to impossible.

Hope that brings you up to date if you haven't seen the latest reports.

One last thing. I've not seen nor heard any reference to Thailand or paedophilia in relation to this guy other than that posted on here by Toaods. Dave, where did you get that stuff from? It's mighty odd, given that the media is all over this like a rash and are digging in to Bird's private life that nothing of this nature has emerged


:agree: We regularly holiday in the Lake District, and it isn't the easiest area to get around - if Bird was a taxi driver he'd know all the minor roads well. Besides, HE knew exactly where he was going next; the police were always playing catch-up.

[greenlex]

:doh: I get it now :greengrin
I know what you were thinking John because for a split second it entered my train of though to.

[Jonnyboy]

I know what you were thinking John because for a split second it entered my train of though to.

You're spot on and as it was my first thought I was shocked. Explanation has removed that though :agree:

[Removed]

I know what you were thinking John because for a split second it entered my train of though to.


You're spot on and as it was my first thought I was shocked. Explanation has removed that though :agree:

But we only have Leitrim's view on Lapsed Hibee's post. Both of your, and my, initial thoughts might still have been what he meant :dunno:

[bawheid]

But we only have Leitrim's view on Lapsed Hibee's post. Both of your, and my, initial thoughts might still have been what he meant :dunno:

I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant. First thing that entered my head was their current left back.

[Removed]

I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant. First thing that entered my head was their current left back.

You're probably right, might just be an age thing.

Not that lex or I are anywhere near as auld as J :greengrin and I don't know about Lapsed.

[bawheid]

You're probably right, might just be an age thing.

Not that lex or I are anywhere near as auld as J :greengrin

Must be! :greengrin

I didn't even click onto you guys' train of thought until after I read your posts and thought about it.

[lapsedhibee]

Must be! :greengrin

I didn't even click onto you guys' train of thought until after I read your posts and thought about it.

Ah. The ambiguity referred to didn't even occur to me. :doh:

Yams' current left back (http://www.happytrailsforever.com/view/uploads/Triggerbook-byPando.jpg)

[Jonnyboy]

Ah. The ambiguity referred to didn't even occur to me. :doh:

Yams' current left back (http://www.happytrailsforever.com/view/uploads/Triggerbook-byPando.jpg)

Apologies for thinking otherwise my friend :worried:

[Jonnyboy]

You're probably right, might just be an age thing.

Not that lex or I are anywhere near as auld as J :greengrin and I don't know about Lapsed.

:grr: :greengrin

[Steve-O]

It's possible that you guys will now have heard the statement given by the Chief Constable but if not I can tell you it covers your query Andy and partly bears out your reply Jim.

Effectively, Bird made use of his extensive knowledge of the area, often travelling from place to place using single track roads etc. If you add in the fact that in terms of square miles West Cumbria is pretty sizeable then it goes some way to explaining why the armed response units were only able to follow at a distance, arriving often just after he'd left a place to continue his madness.

Whilst I'm not suggesting you guys are cop bashing I do think there will be a temptation by some to do so. The police used all of the resources available to them and even drafted in help from other forces and agencies. Of course they'd no idea where and when he'd hit next and that made the hunt for him close to impossible.

Hope that brings you up to date if you haven't seen the latest reports.

One last thing. I've not seen nor heard any reference to Thailand or paedophilia in relation to this guy other than that posted on here by Toaods. Dave, where did you get that stuff from? It's mighty odd, given that the media is all over this like a rash and are digging in to Bird's private life that nothing of this nature has emerged

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3002242/Psycho-cabbies-Thai-gun-club.html :agree:

[EH6 Hibby]

Must be! :greengrin

I didn't even click onto you guys' train of thought until after I read your posts and thought about it.

I immediately thought of Lee Wallace when reading the thread, and after going over it again I still can't think of any thing else the post could have referred to. :confused:

Are my thoughts too innocent? :angelic:

[Removed]

I immediately thought of Lee Wallace when reading the thread, and after going over it again I still can't think of any thing else the post could have referred to. :confused:

Are my thoughts too innocent? :angelic:

Maybe, or maybe you just don't know the story and that's nothing to worry about. I'd actually prefer we didn't post about it any more and I am sure Jonnyboy & Greenlex will agree. Lapsed Hibee has confirmed he meant Lee Wallace so good enough for me.

[Dashing Bob S]

Apologies for thinking otherwise my friend :worried:

I'm getting old John. Had to admit that my Tornadoes senses started tingling on reading that one.

[Sylar]

I found this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/10257836.stm) article quite interesting today.

I know many would advocate the continuance of the status quo, with guns not being so readily available, but perhaps this raises the case for allowing police officers to carry weapons and grant them permission to fire in extreme circumstance, such as this.

3 unarmed officers saw Bird, but couldn't intervene for risking their own lives - they had to wait for armed police to be scrambled, by which point, he had gone on to kill another 9 people. Had the officers who were following him in the transit van been armed, perhaps they would have taken care of the situation and saved the needless loss of 9 lives?

Difficult discussion though I guess, as it would require strict control/legislation to prevent trigger-happy law enforcement.

[Killiehibbie]

I found this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/10257836.stm) article quite interesting today.

I know many would advocate the continuance of the status quo, with guns not being so readily available, but perhaps this raises the case for allowing police officers to carry weapons and grant them permission to fire in extreme circumstance, such as this.

3 unarmed officers saw Bird, but couldn't intervene for risking their own lives - they had to wait for armed police to be scrambled, by which point, he had gone on to kill another 9 people. Had the officers who were following him in the transit van been armed, perhaps they would have taken care of the situation and saved the needless loss of 9 lives?

Difficult discussion though I guess, as it would require strict control/legislation to prevent trigger-happy law enforcement.

I can see where you're coming from with Police being armed but probably a lot more than 9 lives been saved this and every year that they are not all carrying guns. Some of them shouldn't be driving hate to think of the carnage if they had guns.

[Jonnyboy]

Maybe, or maybe you just don't know the story and that's nothing to worry about. I'd actually prefer we didn't post about it any more and I am sure Jonnyboy & Greenlex will agree. Lapsed Hibee has confirmed he meant Lee Wallace so good enough for me.

:agree:


I'm getting old John. Had to admit that my Tornadoes senses started tingling on reading that one.

It's an age thing Bob :agree:

[Jonnyboy]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3002242/Psycho-cabbies-Thai-gun-club.html :agree:

Cheers Steve

It amazes me that this angle has not been talked about in the mainstream media

[Danderhall Hibs]

I am sure you could forgive people for thinking that arming criminals is ridiculous. Only on here could a thread about a criminal rampaging with guns could end up with the usual Tory, Daily Mail digs..pathetic

Where's the connection between his crime and him holding a gun licence? It wasn't armed robbery he was convicted of was it?

[New Corrie]

Where's the connection between his crime and him holding a gun licence? It wasn't armed robbery he was convicted of was it?

Does there have to be connection? Sorry, I keep forgetting it's Hibs.net, you are quite right, we should be arming convicted criminals, my apologies.

[bawheid]

Does there have to be connection? Sorry, I keep forgetting it's Hibs.net, you are quite right, we should be arming convicted criminals, my apologies.

You post with such aggression.

Maybe anyone with a criminal record shouldn't be allowed to drive a car? Bird could easily have driven his taxi up onto the pavement in a busy town centre and killed 12 people.

[New Corrie]

You post with such aggression.

Maybe anyone with a criminal record shouldn't be allowed to drive a car? Bird could easily have driven his taxi up onto the pavement in a busy town centre and killed 12 people.


I'm sure you'll forgive me, I get a tad confused, posts wishing death on people(whether it be Margaret Thatcher or Kevin Thomson) then the justification of arming convicted thiefs:confused::confused: Doesn't reflect well, I wouldn't have thought.

[Twa Cairpets]

I'm sure you'll forgive me, I get a tad confused, posts wishing death on people(whether it be Margaret Thatcher or Kevin Thomson) then the justification of arming convicted thiefs:confused::confused: Doesn't reflect well, I wouldn't have thought.

On this part of Hibs.net, if any poster was to genuinely wish death on anyone they would, I suspect, be treated with the appropriate level of ridicule, disgust and retaliation.

As bawheid suggests in his reply, the apparent fury with which you often tend to post does seem to blind you to the arrant nonsense of the point you are making. If you re-read your post above, you will see it is,frankly, bonkers. You are trying to conflate two completely different discussions, neither of which exist in the first place, because it fits your anti-liberal bias.

No-one - and I mean no-one - is advocating or defending the wholesale arming of the criminal classes, which is what you are suggesting is being argued. The point being made is that an 15 year old conviction for an unrelated offence does not seem to necessarily be justification for banning a licence. Bawheids comparison about cars is very, very valid. Would you ban drink drivers for life? How about speeders? or uninsured drivers? Many more people are killed by cars than guns.

Your knee-jerk reaction does not help move any debate forward. If, as the Sunday Times reported yesterday he had been planning this crime for 9 months, do you honestly think that even if he had been denied a licence, he would not have found a way to carry out what he wanted to do?

Such unthinking and uncritical responses to atrocities such as Cumbria make it difficult to arrive at changes to legislation/attitiudes that will make a genuine difference, rather than produce outcomes that will appease the vocal extreme that you seemingly inhabit

[New Corrie]

On this part of Hibs.net, if any poster was to genuinely wish death on anyone they would, I suspect, be treated with the appropriate level of ridicule, disgust and retaliation.

As bawheid suggests in his reply, the apparent fury with which you often tend to post does seem to blind you to the arrant nonsense of the point you are making. If you re-read your post above, you will see it is,frankly, bonkers. You are trying to conflate two completely different discussions, neither of which exist in the first place, because it fits your anti-liberal bias.

No-one - and I mean no-one - is advocating or defending the wholesale arming of the criminal classes, which is what you are suggesting is being argued. The point being made is that an 15 year old conviction for an unrelated offence does not seem to necessarily be justification for banning a licence. Bawheids comparison about cars is very, very valid. Would you ban drink drivers for life? How about speeders? or uninsured drivers? Many more people are killed by cars than guns.

Your knee-jerk reaction does not help move any debate forward. If, as the Sunday Times reported yesterday he had been planning this crime for 9 months, do you honestly think that even if he had been denied a licence, he would not have found a way to carry out what he wanted to do?

Such unthinking and uncritical responses to atrocities such as Cumbria make it difficult to arrive at changes to legislation/attitiudes that will make a genuine difference, rather than produce outcomes that will appease the vocal extreme that you seemingly inhabit


Okay, fair point, let's look beyond my "vocal extreme" and alleged irrational point about arming criminals, and someone please expalin why a taxi driver in Whitehaven should be legally allowed not one, but two firearms? As for the car analogy, there will be plenty people who think that drunk, speeding, uninsured drivers should be banned for life, maybe they've lost a loved one due to the aforementioned....it doesn't make them irrational, just victims, who as usual play second fiddle to the perpetrators,

[greenlex]

Maybe, or maybe you just don't know the story and that's nothing to worry about. I'd actually prefer we didn't post about it any more and I am sure Jonnyboy & Greenlex will agree. Lapsed Hibee has confirmed he meant Lee Wallace so good enough for me.
:agree:

[Twa Cairpets]

Okay, fair point, let's look beyond my "vocal extreme" and alleged irrational point about arming criminals, and someone please expalin why a taxi driver in Whitehaven should be legally allowed not one, but two firearms?

Nothing alleged about it. It is irrational if you choose to link two unlinked events as a method of legislative action to combat the liklihood of future crime. If you group all "criminals" together, then where do you draw the line? Fraud? Tax avoidance? Bigamy? Car crime? There is no reason to suppose that perpetrating one crime will make one more predisposed to acts of mass slaughter.

There is a valid argument regarding why anyone - Whitehaven taxi driver or not - should need a gun licence. As I have no interest in gun sport, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if all sports rifles were simply banned, and shotguns/rilfes restricted to farmers, who do have a need for them.


As for the car analogy, there will be plenty people who think that drunk, speeding, uninsured drivers should be banned for life, maybe they've lost a loved one due to the aforementioned....it doesn't make them irrational, just victims, who as usual play second fiddle to the perpetrators,

Again with the anger and the needless point scoring. Your first point is maybe a bit extreme, but it is worth considering. If you knew that drink driving was an instant life ban, no question, no appeal, you'd maybe think more about it (but it would of course just lead to more uninsured illegal drivers with nothing/less to lose being on the roads).

But then you go on to come out with this ridiculous last sentence. it doesn't make them irrational, just victims, who as usual play second fiddle to the perpetrators, Who has ever claimed that victims of car crime are irrational? Who has claimed that victimes play second fiddle to the perpetrators. It is just not true for the vast majority of cases. The perpetrators, if caught, get punished. just because they arent getting lynched or castrated doesnt mean they arent getting punished. To be clear, I have no sympathy with such individuals. I am not defending them. I am not putting them first. I am not saying their rights are more important than the victims. Using throwaway lines culled from the editorials of the more journalistically right wing tabloids does not give your argument gravitas.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Your knee-jerk reaction does not help move any debate forward. If, as the Sunday Times reported yesterday he had been planning this crime for 9 months, do you honestly think that even if he had been denied a licence, he would not have found a way to carry out what he wanted to do?


How can the ST know that? Are they saying that he told other people that he was planning the killing spree? If that's the case - surely the other people would have acted in some way to stop it.

On the other hand, the ST could just be making it up.

[Twa Cairpets]

How can the ST know that? Are they saying that he told other people that he was planning the killing spree? If that's the case - surely the other people would have acted in some way to stop it.

On the other hand, the ST could just be making it up.

It is why I used the word "If".

According to the article he was talking to friends about how he was going to get a gun and sort these people out, or something of the sort. If one of your mates told you that, I think you would regard it as bluff, bluster and bravado, rather than go straight to the police.

Quotes were direct from his mates, so not made up, i dont think.

[J-C]

Okay, fair point, let's look beyond my "vocal extreme" and alleged irrational point about arming criminals, and someone please expalin why a taxi driver in Whitehaven should be legally allowed not one, but two firearms? As for the car analogy, there will be plenty people who think that drunk, speeding, uninsured drivers should be banned for life, maybe they've lost a loved one due to the aforementioned....it doesn't make them irrational, just victims, who as usual play second fiddle to the perpetrators,


It is not illegal to own firearms here in Britain, infact the safety measures in place are some of the strictest in the world. Cumbria is a pretty rural area and shooting in the countryside is quite a common past time, Bird was regularly out shooting rabbit and deer etc when he had the chance and had been doing so for many years. He had a shotgun which is used regularly in the farming community and a rifle which is also used regularly for shooting rabbit and deer.

According to the most recent figures for England and Wales, there are 138,728 people certificated to hold firearms and they own 435,383 weapons. There are 574,946 shotgun certificates which cover 1.4m shotguns.


Statistics for Scotland show that 70,839 firearms were held by 26,072 certificate holders at the end of last year. Some 50,000 people in Scotland are certificated to hold shotguns - and 137,768 weapons are covered by that scheme.

You cannot legislate for someone going over the edge and suddenly committing this type of crime, this happens generally around every 10 years or so, in the USA around 1 every year or so.

Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)
USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36I
taly (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switzerland (1998)0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada (2002)0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003)0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001)0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001)0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002)0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2. 02
Japan (2002) 0.02

[Danderhall Hibs]

Does there have to be connection? Sorry, I keep forgetting it's Hibs.net, you are quite right, we should be arming convicted criminals, my apologies.

So in your Britain if you've got 3 points on your driving licence you can't own a gun?

[Phil D. Rolls]

It is why I used the word "If".

According to the article he was talking to friends about how he was going to get a gun and sort these people out, or something of the sort. If one of your mates told you that, I think you would regard it as bluff, bluster and bravado, rather than go straight to the police.

Quotes were direct from his mates, so not made up, i dont think.

To be absolutely honest - I probably would have mentioned it to the rozzers. Post Dunblane, anyone acting with bravado about a thing like that is an idiot.

[New Corrie]

So in your Britain if you've got 3 points on your driving licence you can't own a gun?


In my Britain only Police Officers, Soldiers and certain very carefully vetted farmers would have guns. Who the pheck else needs tham apart from gangsters and weirdos? In your Britain a taxi driver who is a convicted thief is allowed 2 guns.

[Danderhall Hibs]

In my Britain only Police Officers, Soldiers and certain very carefully vetted farmers would have guns. Who the pheck else needs tham apart from gangsters and weirdos? In your Britain a taxi driver who is a convicted thief is allowed 2 guns.

My point is why does the convicted thief part of your statement make any difference to your point?

BTW what about soldier or farmer with 3 points on his licence?

[Twa Cairpets]

In my Britain only Police Officers, Soldiers and certain very carefully vetted farmers would have guns. Who the pheck else needs tham apart from gangsters and weirdos? In your Britain a taxi driver who is a convicted thief is allowed 2 guns.

How about a farmer convicted of fraud?

Taking Danderhalls point, you are adding in unnecessary levls of complication. Wanting to limit access to firearms is fine - I actually tend to agree with you - but to take that position because "every criminal who wants one seems to be allowed a gun" (I paraphrase) isn't true or relevant.

[steakbake]

My point is why does the convicted thief part of your statement make any difference to your point?

BTW what about soldier or farmer with 3 points on his licence?

Yep, soldiers really are, to a man and woman, all upstanding pillars of our community.

What if one of them gets nicked for assault after a pissed night out? (Sorry son, you can't have a gun in afghanistan cos you've got a criminal record).

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yep, soldiers really are, to a man and woman, all upstanding pillars of our community.

What if one of them gets nicked for assault after a pissed night out? (Sorry son, you can't have a gun in afghanistan cos you've got a criminal record).

I'm not sure about this, but would that not lead to them being discharged from the army?

[Jonnyboy]

In my Britain only Police Officers, Soldiers and certain very carefully vetted farmers would have guns. Who the pheck else needs tham apart from gangsters and weirdos? In your Britain a taxi driver who is a convicted thief is allowed 2 guns.

I'd better hand my shotgun back then as I fit none of the above but do have a problem with rabbits eating all my flipping plants.

[ArabHibee]

I'd better hand my shotgun back then as I fit none of the above but do have a problem with rabbits eating all my flipping plants.

Would you like a shot of my cat John? Expert rabbit killer. Eats them as well for you. Just leaves the back legs. Price negotiable.

[Jonnyboy]

Would you like a shot of my cat John? Expert rabbit killer. Eats them as well for you. Just leaves the back legs. Price negotiable.

Kind offer Susan but I fear my two Dobermann's may take exception :greengrin