Thatcher

[One Day Soon]

Just saw a clip of her on tonight's programme on music, Brits and sexuality. She was talking about the rule of law in the context of the miner's strike.

I had forgotten what it was I felt about her. The sheer venom in her as she spoke brought it all back. I immediately remembered how utterly loathesome, unbending, divisive and spiteful I found her.

[J-C]

Just saw a clip of her on tonight's programme on music, Brits and sexuality. She was talking about the rule of law in the context of the miner's strike.

I had forgotten what it was I felt about her. The sheer venom in her as she spoke brought it all back. I immediately remembered how utterly loathesome, unbending, divisive and spiteful I found her.


You should be old enough to remember the 3 day working weeks and power strikes, burninhg candles for light and buying oil heaters to keep warm, ye the unions really had the thought of the working class when causing all that chaos.
Thatcher picked Britain up from it's knees when we had 20% inflation, unions ruining the country and a mining leader who fought to keep open pits that were either finished and/or dangerous to keep open. She was not everyones cup of tea but she was needed at that time to get Britain back as a world power again, the problem a lot of people have is they don't look at the good she done when she was in. I'm no Tory, far from it but I'll give credit where it's due, Wilson and Callaghan had cow towed to the unions for years as they were paying vast amounts of monies to the Labour party and thisn proved their downfall and the fall of Britain at that time, wee needed a strong leader to get us out of it.

[Betty Boop]

Just saw a clip of her on tonight's programme on music, Brits and sexuality. She was talking about the rule of law in the context of the miner's strike.

I had forgotten what it was I felt about her. The sheer venom in her as she spoke brought it all back. I immediately remembered how utterly loathesome, unbending, divisive and spiteful I found her.

I thought you were going to say she had passed away during the night! :grr:

[richard_pitts]

What I find amusing is the BBC obviously has worked its programming on the assumption the Tories were going to get a clear majority at the General Election, sparking a wave of 80s nostalgia :rolleyes:

We may have needed change, but the pace of that change was far too fast and the balance between Union and Bosses was shifted way too far the other way. This is aside from the colossal social and economic divisions that resulted. When Cameron talks of broken Britain, he forgets that the Tories broke it, and Labour failed to fix it. A lot of the problems we experience now were set in motion then, including deregulation of the Banking and Financial Sector :grr:

Eighties nostalgia is vastly over-rated in my opinion :grr:

[degenerated]

You should be old enough to remember the 3 day working weeks and power strikes, burninhg candles for light and buying oil heaters to keep warm, ye the unions really had the thought of the working class when causing all that chaos.
Thatcher picked Britain up from it's knees when we had 20% inflation, unions ruining the country and a mining leader who fought to keep open pits that were either finished and/or dangerous to keep open. She was not everyones cup of tea but she was needed at that time to get Britain back as a world power again, the problem a lot of people have is they don't look at the good she done when she was in. I'm no Tory, far from it but I'll give credit where it's due, Wilson and Callaghan had cow towed to the unions for years as they were paying vast amounts of monies to the Labour party and thisn proved their downfall and the fall of Britain at that time, wee needed a strong leader to get us out of it.

no she didn't, inflation was at just over 13% when she took over. I notice you omit the vast hikes in interest rates that she used to bring inflation down and the resultant rise in unemployment from around 4% to 12%. You also appear to have omitted the fact the percentage of the countries GDP going on wages and salaries drastically dropped during her tenure, but that of course meant more money for the corporate fat cats.

you mention the miners strike but fail to mention the printworkers strike where Rupert Murdoch imposed crap pay and conditions on his staff and Thatcher backed him up with some of her anti union reforms. Incidentally the coal that we ended up having to import from South America cost the country a great deal more than it was costing from the mines that she closed!!!

it could also be pointed out that she cut tax rates and offset that with indirect taxation like raising VAT from 8% to 15%, and then 17.5%, thereby ensuring her well paid buddies saved a few bob and the ordinary worker ended up paying a fair bit more.

oh and i might add that it was her de-regualtion of the finance industry that led us to the position we find the economy in today.

thatchers britain - you can shove it :greengrin

[sadtom]

You should be old enough to remember the 3 day working weeks and power strikes, burninhg candles for light and buying oil heaters to keep warm, ye the unions really had the thought of the working class when causing all that chaos.
Thatcher picked Britain up from it's knees when we had 20% inflation, unions ruining the country and a mining leader who fought to keep open pits that were either finished and/or dangerous to keep open. She was not everyones cup of tea but she was needed at that time to get Britain back as a world power again, the problem a lot of people have is they don't look at the good she done when she was in. I'm no Tory, far from it but I'll give credit where it's due, Wilson and Callaghan had cow towed to the unions for years as they were paying vast amounts of monies to the Labour party and thisn proved their downfall and the fall of Britain at that time, wee needed a strong leader to get us out of it.

Complete and utter drivel.

[Woody1985]

Are any other 20 something people sick of hearing about Thatcher and the constant arguing that goes on between those who loved/hated her?

It seems difficult to get view from anyone without it being branded pish by their opposite number.

[marinello59]

Are any other 20 something people sick of hearing about Thatcher and the constant arguing that goes on between those who loved/hated her?

It seems difficult to get view from anyone without it being branded pish by their opposite number.

Don't talk pish.:grr:

Hold on, you are right.:greengrin

[RoslinInstHibby]

Are any other 20 something people sick of hearing about Thatcher and the constant arguing that goes on between those who loved/hated her?

It seems difficult to get view from anyone without it being branded pish by their opposite number.

:agree:

[legends of 73]

You should be old enough to remember the 3 day working weeks and power strikes, burninhg candles for light and buying oil heaters to keep warm, ye the unions really had the thought of the working class when causing all that chaos.
Thatcher picked Britain up from it's knees when we had 20% inflation, unions ruining the country and a mining leader who fought to keep open pits that were either finished and/or dangerous to keep open. She was not everyones cup of tea but she was needed at that time to get Britain back as a world power again, the problem a lot of people have is they don't look at the good she done when she was in. I'm no Tory, far from it but I'll give credit where it's due, Wilson and Callaghan had cow towed to the unions for years as they were paying vast amounts of monies to the Labour party and thisn proved their downfall and the fall of Britain at that time, wee needed a strong leader to get us out of it.




never heard or read so much pish in my life.

i dare you spout that pish on the ranks tonight and see the response you get

[Leicester Fan]

When I was a kid I'd never touch tuna fish now it's one of my favourites.

[Beefster]

never heard or read so much pish in my life.

i dare you spout that pish on the ranks tonight and see the response you get

Well, you've convinced me. She was the anti-Christ.

[lapsedhibee]

Eighties nostalgia is vastly over-rated in my opinion :grr:It didn't used to be.:rolleyes:

[lapsedhibee]

Are any other 20 something people sick of hearing about Thatcher and the constant arguing that goes on between those who loved/hated her?

It seems difficult to get view from anyone without it being branded pish by their opposite number.

Thatch introduced at least one very good thing, called Enterprise Allowance, where if you were unemployed and signing on you could do work and earn money yet continue to sign on and collect unemployment benefit for a period (six or perhaps twelve months). This enabled some unemployed people to escape a Catch 22 where there was no point doing paid work because you would not be any better off than if you didn't do it. Revolutionary and sound.

Thatch never understood that a whole country and a grocer's shop are not just different in scale, but also in other ways.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I saw a newspaper picture from the political campaign
A woman was kissing a child, who was obviously in pain
She spills with compassion, as that young child's
face in her hands she grips
Can you imagine all that greed and avarice
coming down on that child's lips

Well I hope I don't die too soon
I pray the Lord my soul to save
Oh I'll be a good boy, I'm trying so hard to behave
Because there's one thing I know, I'd like to live
long enough to savour
That's when they finally put you in the ground
I'll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down

When England was the whore of the world
Margaret was her madam
And the future looked as bright and as clear as
the black tarmacadam
Well I hope that she sleeps well at night, isn't
haunted by every tiny detail
'Cos when she held that lovely face in her hands
all she thought of was betrayal

And now the cynical ones say that it all ends the same in the long run
Try telling that to the desperate father who just squeezed the life from his
only son
And how it's only voices in your head and dreams you never dreamt
Try telling him the subtle difference between justice and contempt
Try telling me she isn't angry with this pitiful discontent
When they flaunt it in your face as you line up for punishment
And then expect you to say "Thank you" straighten up, look proud and pleased
Because you've only got the symptoms, you haven't got the whole disease
Just like a schoolboy, whose head's like a tin-can
filled up with dreams then poured down the drain
Try telling that to the boys on both sides, being blown to bits or beaten and
maimed
Who takes all the glory and none of the shame

Well I hope you live long now, I pray the Lord your soul to keep
I think I'll be going before we fold our arms and start to weep
I never thought for a moment that human life could be so cheap
'Cos when they finally put you in the ground
They'll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down

Cheers Declan, I'll be behind you in the queue though!


I thought you were going to say she had passed away during the night! :grr:

Reminds me of the mixed emotions I had when I heard that she was to get a state funeral. Disgust that she was to be honoured and disgust that it wasn't next week. Actually that's not mixed emotions at all.

I suspect that she hasn't been seen in public for a while as her penchant for malt whisky has finally caught up with her, and she is in a care home suffering from alcoholic dementia.

I only suspect that, as I couldn't possibly know the truth.

Anybody who thinks Thatcher did a good job for Britain should take a drive round Lochgelly, Ballingry, Valleyfield, or Cowdenbeath, and see how successful she was.

[Leicester Fan]

They'll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down



Cheers Declan, I'll be behind you in the queue though!


I hope you do. She's being buried at sea.:wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I hope you do. She's being buried at sea.:wink:

:faf:

[J-C]

Sorry bout original post, don't usually post things just to get a reaction, ignore all i said it was purely for effect and get a debate going :)

[givescotlandfreedom]

I hope you do. She's being buried at sea.:wink:

The sharks will spit her out.

[.Sean.]

Are any other 20 something people sick of hearing about Thatcher and the constant arguing that goes on between those who loved/hated her?

It seems difficult to get view from anyone without it being branded pish by their opposite number.
I'm not yet in my twenties yet and i'm sick hearing about Thatcher. Nobody can have a conversation about the Tories without dragging her name up.

The saddest thing is that I know a fair few folk who won't even give Cameron a chance purely because he's a Conservative and because of the Thatcher 'legacy'. Yes he may be a Tory, but he isn't Maggie Thatcher.

[lapsedhibee]

Yes he may be a Tory, but he isn't Maggie Thatcher.You know this how? Until you've placed a third-of-a-pint bottle of milk in front of him there's no way to tell. If he leaves it alone, he's not. But if he snatches it, he is. :agree:

[McIntosh]

You should be old enough to remember the 3 day working weeks and power strikes, burninhg candles for light and buying oil heaters to keep warm, ye the unions really had the thought of the working class when causing all that chaos.
Thatcher picked Britain up from it's knees when we had 20% inflation, unions ruining the country and a mining leader who fought to keep open pits that were either finished and/or dangerous to keep open. She was not everyones cup of tea but she was needed at that time to get Britain back as a world power again, the problem a lot of people have is they don't look at the good she done when she was in. I'm no Tory, far from it but I'll give credit where it's due, Wilson and Callaghan had cow towed to the unions for years as they were paying vast amounts of monies to the Labour party and thisn proved their downfall and the fall of Britain at that time, wee needed a strong leader to get us out of it.

Well I am olde enough and what you have just stated is rubbish - the three day week was political con by the Heath government, read the declassified documents. As for the cause od the disputes, the miners were fighting for a £25 a week wage. As for making Britain A "WORLD POWER" have you been on the drink? As for not being a Tory well you sure sound like one to me.

Thatcher was a vindictive, wicked, evil apology for a human being she did more demage than the luftwaffe - we are now only seeing the scale of the demage she did to the economic, moral and political fabric of this country.

[J-C]

Right I'm back home, so let me explain, I was on my phone earlier and also working so didn't have time to explain myself properly.

I knew the subject would bring out the hatred of Thatcher among the vast majority of poster here, knowing what she did in the eighties and particularly what she did in Scotland. I myself have been a lifelong SNP voter and like a lot of you have a strong dislike for Thatcher and what she stood for. I saw the OP and the little devil in me decided to post an oposite opinionated post knowing the response I'd get, sorry for that it's not like me but was a bit of fun at the time. :devil:

I never paid the poll tax and put 2 fingers up at Thatcher for doing what she done, yes she was a strong leader but also a very nasty character who stepped all over anyone and anything that got in her way. She destroyed the working class and in the same breathe made the rich even richer, riots ensued and without a blink of an eye, she trod all over the demonstrators with a heavy handed police force.

There will be no tear shed from me when she finally goes.

---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 PM ----------


Well I am olde enough and what you have just stated is rubbish - the three day week was political con by the Heath government, read the declassified documents. As for the cause od the disputes, the miners were fighting for a £25 a week wage. As for making Britain A "WORLD POWER" have you been on the drink? As for not being a Tory well you sure sound like one to me.

Thatcher was a vindictive, wicked, evil apology for a human being she did more demage than the luftwaffe - we are now only seeing the scale of the demage she did to the economic, moral and political fabric of this country.

Read my post I've just added.

[Pete]

I'm not yet in my twenties yet and i'm sick hearing about Thatcher. Nobody can have a conversation about the Tories without dragging her name up.

The saddest thing is that I know a fair few folk who won't even give Cameron a chance purely because he's a Conservative and because of the Thatcher 'legacy'. Yes he may be a Tory, but he isn't Maggie Thatcher.

I'm 34 and don't completely understand the Thatcher regime but does this not give you an indication of what it was like?
It caused so much pain to people I can remember as a child. People losing their jobs left-right and centre...privatisation...mass unemployment figures.
Politics was more extreme back then with the tories being more right wing and labour being left wing. Thatchers legacy burns deep in nearly every area of Scotland and it will take a long time for the tories to ever be accepted here again.

All the parties are pretty similar in their policies nowadays and the extreme differences aren't there any more. They're all "social democrats" and it's all about who has the youngest, freshest face.

I'd bet David Milliband will get in if there's another election...and he'd probably have even more of a chance if he teamed up with his brother and started singing and dancing.

[Pete]

Right I'm back home, so let me explain, I was on my phone earlier and also working so didn't have time to explain myself properly.

I knew the subject would bring out the hatred of Thatcher among the vast majority of poster here, knowing what she did in the eighties and particularly what she did in Scotland. I myself have been a lifelong SNP voter and like a lot of you have a strong dislike for Thatcher and what she stood for. I saw the OP and the little devil in me decided to post an oposite opinionated post knowing the response I'd get, sorry for that it's not like me but was a bit of fun at the time. :devil:

I never paid the poll tax and put 2 fingers up at Thatcher for doing what she done, yes she was a strong leader but also a very nasty character who stepped all over anyone and anything that got in her way. She destroyed the working class and in the same breathe made the rich even richer, riots ensued and without a blink of an eye, she trod all over the demonstrators with a heavy handed police force.

There will be no tear shed from me when she finally goes.

---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 PM ----------



Read my post I've just added.

I'll admit to doing that before...it stirs things and gets debate going.

However, unlike myself you probably won't have to worry about people catching up with you and beating you up!:tee hee:

[snooky]

Thatcher started the ME generation.
ME ME ME ME ME etc.
You know the type as seen in the Titanic movie.....
"Frig the women and children, I'll have that lifeboat thank you."
That was, and still is, her world.

[Pete]

Thatcher started the ME generation.
ME ME ME ME ME etc.
You know the type as seen in the Titanic movie.....
"Frig the women and children, I'll have that lifeboat thank you."
That was, and still is, her world.

That might still be her world but is that what modern conservatism is all about?

She was the instigator of the biggest polarisation of opinion in modern times...the great council house sell off. What better way to disrupt the working class than to shove instant financial gain in front of their noses.

It's was only 20 years later the folly of this policy was fully appreciated.

I can take out a buy-to-let mortgage...fill the house with absolute bampots and guess what, the state will pay me £1000 per month!

Thank you Mrs Thatcher!

[(((Fergus)))]

Thatcher started the ME generation.
ME ME ME ME ME etc.
You know the type as seen in the Titanic movie.....
"Frig the women and children, I'll have that lifeboat thank you."
That was, and still is, her world.

I know she's old but didn't the Titanic precede her?

[hibsbollah]

That might still be her world but is that what modern conservatism is all about?



Not if you followed the election campaign. Cameron's conservatives are as far away in terms of their rhetoric and image from Thatcher's ideological crusade as its possible to get. Its all about effective management and toffish liberalism now. But on the other hand, they're about to embark on a campaign of cuts that even Thatcher (the grim reaper and milk-snatcher of legend) never got close to.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm not yet in my twenties yet and i'm sick hearing about Thatcher. Nobody can have a conversation about the Tories without dragging her name up.

The saddest thing is that I know a fair few folk who won't even give Cameron a chance purely because he's a Conservative and because of the Thatcher 'legacy'. Yes he may be a Tory, but he isn't Maggie Thatcher.

Thatcher couldn't do what she did alone. She was backed by powerful people who saw a benefit - for them - in her policies. Thatcher may be gone, but they are not.

Cameron is the current front for a party that believes that the natural order of things will assert itself if people are left alone to do their own thing. If Thatcher's policies were so succesful, how come Britain is in the state it is in?

[Beefster]

Thatcher couldn't do what she did alone. She was backed by powerful people who saw a benefit - for them - in her policies. Thatcher may be gone, but they are not.

Cameron is the current front for a party that believes that the natural order of things will assert itself if people are left alone to do their own thing. If Thatcher's policies were so succesful, how come Britain is in the state it is in?

What have Major, Blair and Brown being doing for the last 20 years if all society's ills are still Thatcher's fault?

[J-C]

What have Major, Blair and Brown being doing for the last 20 years if all society's ills are still Thatcher's fault?


Major carried on with Thatcherism, Blair and Brown are the far right of the Labour Party and were a watered down version of Thactherism, that's why the country's in such a bloody mess.

Before the Tories were kicked out there was scandal after scandal, within a couple of years with New Labour in charge these same scandals came to the fore, everyone lining their pockets for self gain ( cash for questions, money for peerages and the MP expenses ).:confused:

[Leicester Fan]

Not if you followed the election campaign. Cameron's conservatives are as far away in terms of their rhetoric and image from Thatcher's ideological crusade as its possible to get. Its all about effective management and toffish liberalism now. But on the other hand, they're about to embark on a campaign of cuts that even Thatcher (the grim reaper and milk-snatcher of legend) never got close to.
Didn't Alistair Darling say that huge cuts far bigger than Thatcher ever made were necessary.

[hibsbollah]

Didn't Alistair Darling say that huge cuts far bigger than Thatcher ever made were necessary.

Yes he did. But im not a supporter of New Labour either.

[snooky]

I know she's old but didn't the Titanic precede her?

Pity. She would have gone down well on it. :wink:

[ArabHibee]

You know this how? Until you've placed a third-of-a-pint bottle of milk in front of him there's no way to tell. If he leaves it alone, he's not. But if he snatches it, he is. :agree:

:top marksI'll never forgive Thatcher for stealing my milk! :grr:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

One thing that I will say for Mrs Thatch was that she really polarised the country and she never hid the fact that she was standing up for her own kind. In a democracy, everyone is allowed a pluralist opionion and while I would maintain that us all being Hibees is a greater glue that sticks us all together, she really did make people nail their colours to the mast. To me, she was the complete anti-thesis of what I was brought up to believe in. The me first, me second, always me, pilosophy was an alien concept in our house. Her support by default, for the apartheid regime was nothing short of repellant however.
Somehow the Save-Dave party doesn't have me reaching for my Billy Bragg LP though.

[heretoday]

Mrs Thatcher really had it in for the workers and spent her career keeping them in their place. It had something to do with her upbringing in Grantham and her relationship with her Tory councillor father.

She was pretty offhand about her mum and her sister too - hence her low opinion of women in general.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What have Major, Blair and Brown being doing for the last 20 years if all society's ills are still Thatcher's fault?

They had a lot to put right. Can I point to the new schools and hospitals around the country as evidence?

[The_Todd]

They had a lot to put right. Can I point to the new schools and hospitals around the country as evidence?

With more to come. Wait, no, they've been cancelled by Cameron and Clegg. It's ok, we'll have lovely "free schools" now, though.

[steakbake]

Eighties nostalgia is vastly over-rated in my opinion :grr:

It's certainly not what it used to be, that's for sure. :wink:

[ginger_rice]

What I find amusing is the BBC obviously has worked its programming on the assumption the Tories were going to get a clear majority at the General Election, sparking a wave of 80s nostalgia :rolleyes:

We may have needed change, but the pace of that change was far too fast and the balance between Union and Bosses was shifted way too far the other way. This is aside from the colossal social and economic divisions that resulted. When Cameron talks of broken Britain, he forgets that the Tories broke it, and Labour failed to fix it. A lot of the problems we experience now were set in motion then, including deregulation of the Banking and Financial Sector :grr:

Eighties nostalgia is vastly over-rated in my opinion :grr:

:agree::agree:

[ginger_rice]

They had a lot to put right. Can I point to the new schools and hospitals around the country as evidence?

Please don't I work in one of these God awful buildings :grr:

[ginger_rice]

For me there are far too many legacies of Thatcher which still impact on our everyday lives.

As already stated by others De-regulation of the financial industries, but also, Ian McGregor and American strike busting tactics, the lack of social and affordable housing, privatisation of public utilities, and public transport. Even more insidious was her assertion that there is no such thing as society only the individual, and boy are we reaping that one now!

Evil evil woman :grr:

[McHibby]

Mrs Thatcher really had it in for the workers and spent her career keeping them in their place. It had something to do with her upbringing in Grantham and her relationship with her Tory councillor father.

She was pretty offhand about her mum and her sister too - hence her low opinion of women in general.

She once said that her actions were to ensure the working class "do not belie their name".

I am just about to start a disseration about Thatcher's foreign policy; it's interesting to see how much of a reaction she still produces in people. I cannae really remember her (I am in my late 20's) , I grew up in Dalkeith where there are a lot of miners, my dad and uncles included, and she is utterly despised by a lot of folk there.

[Dashing Bob S]

Through the seventies western economy was going through major structural change, which basically meant that technology was destroying skilled and unskilled manual jobs. This had a big impact on the largely post-war consensual nature of British politics; basically that a welfare state and universal free healthcare and education systems were possible.

The first change in the policy was instigated by the Labour Party in 1978 when Dennis Healey, as Chancellor, went to the IMF, and introduced a form of monetarist economics, which Thatcher would press on with when she came into power. Major, Blair and Brown (and now Cameron/Clegg) have basically continued those policies.

The main difference between Thatcher's administration and the others, has been the ruthless class-war aggression, the coldness, bigotry, the selling off of national assets and the callous indifference, in fact glee, of the hurt and pain that their economic policies have caused.

Unlike the continent, where governments took responsibility for the restructuring of the economy, the Tories willfully wrecked it, not softening the blow, but tearing society apart in the process. This abdication of responsibility (to all sections of society bar the rich, with a few crumbs thrown to the aspirational which they are largely now paying for with debt) was their biggest crime, along with the 'greed is good' ethos, which is the direct sponsor of our current recession.

Thatcher created generations of a state-dependent underclass, by wrecking manual jobs, turning working-class areas into mass, long-term unemployment ghettos, where many people are so divorced from the world of work and responsibility they wouldn't know where to begin to start to try and pull themselves up.

Old Labour weren't blameless, the Tories under Major and Cameron weren't, New Labour certainly weren't and its odds-on Cameron's Tories won't be. But they all pale into insignificance besides the most malevolent force in UK politics since the war, led by the nutcase who wrecked the welfare state, destroyed the concept of a united, one-nation, Britain, increased the already massive gap between rich and poor to almost incomprehensible levels, put people who wanted a home or an education and who didn't inherit massive wealth from their parents in hock to the banks for the rest of their lives, politicised the police force and deployed them against strikers, demonstrators and civilians for political purposes...I could go on, but no, I don't like her. Not one bit.

[Leicester Fan]

The main difference between Thatcher's administration and the others, has been the ruthless class-war aggression, the coldness, bigotry, the selling off of national assets and the callous indifference, in fact glee, of the hurt and pain that their economic policies have caused.

That's only your opinion. There's no proof of that.


Old Labour weren't blameless, the Tories under Major and Cameron weren't,
He's been in power less than a fortnight. A bit early to judge don't you think?

[Phil D. Rolls]

That's only your opinion. There's no proof of that.

He's been in power less than a fortnight. A bit early to judge don't you think?

Give it a rest man, history is history, some of them were loving every minute. You just have to look at the antics of the Young Conservatives at the time, for example.

[Leicester Fan]

Give it a rest man, history is history, some of them were loving every minute. You just have to look at the antics of the Young Conservatives at the time, for example.

You've made your mind up and it doesn't matter what happens you'll still hate for the sake of hating.

[s.a.m]

Through the seventies western economy was going through major structural change, which basically meant that technology was destroying skilled and unskilled manual jobs. This had a big impact on the largely post-war consensual nature of British politics; basically that a welfare state and universal free healthcare and education systems were possible.

The first change in the policy was instigated by the Labour Party in 1978 when Dennis Healey, as Chancellor, went to the IMF, and introduced a form of monetarist economics, which Thatcher would press on with when she came into power. Major, Blair and Brown (and now Cameron/Clegg) have basically continued those policies.

The main difference between Thatcher's administration and the others, has been the ruthless class-war aggression, the coldness, bigotry, the selling off of national assets and the callous indifference, in fact glee, of the hurt and pain that their economic policies have caused.

Unlike the continent, where governments took responsibility for the restructuring of the economy, the Tories willfully wrecked it, not softening the blow, but tearing society apart in the process. This abdication of responsibility (to all sections of society bar the rich, with a few crumbs thrown to the aspirational which they are largely now paying for with debt) was their biggest crime, along with the 'greed is good' ethos, which is the direct sponsor of our current recession.

Thatcher created generations of a state-dependent underclass, by wrecking manual jobs, turning working-class areas into mass, long-term unemployment ghettos, where many people are so divorced from the world of work and responsibility they wouldn't know where to begin to start to try and pull themselves up.

Old Labour weren't blameless, the Tories under Major and Cameron weren't, New Labour certainly weren't and its odds-on Cameron's Tories won't be. But they all pale into insignificance besides the most malevolent force in UK politics since the war, led by the nutcase who wrecked the welfare state, destroyed the concept of a united, one-nation, Britain, increased the already massive gap between rich and poor to almost incomprehensible levels, put people who wanted a home or an education and who didn't inherit massive wealth from their parents in hock to the banks for the rest of their lives, politicised the police force and deployed them against strikers, demonstrators and civilians for political purposes...I could go on, but no, I don't like her. Not one bit.

As I get older, I move closer to the centre politically (like many others), and have less energy for the kind of anger I felt about the Tories. However, if ever I find myself seeing sense ina Tory policy, I can't help but remember Peter Lilley''s Gilbert and Sullivan moment. I know that was then, and this is now; and I know that they weren't all like that - but that was the mood of the time, and I think we're still paying for it.

[Dashing Bob S]

That's only your opinion. There's no proof of that.

Nonsense. It was payback time and the worst of them glorified the pain they caused and the best were indifferent.

He's been in power less than a fortnight. A bit early to judge don't you think?

As a matter of fact you are spot on here and I'm happy to stand corrected on this point.

[lapsedhibee]

As I get older, I move closer to the centre politically (like many others), and have less energy for the kind of anger I felt about the Tories. However, if ever I find myself seeing sense ina Tory policy, I can't help but remember Peter Lilley''s Gilbert and Sullivan moment. I know that was then, and this is now; and I know that they weren't all like that - but that was the mood of the time, and I think we're still paying for it.

Some of the Thatcher tories were quite simply revolting, but doesn't the Onthank thread on this very forum perhaps indicate that Lilley's supremely unfunny pastiche had some worth in it? :dunno:

[steakbake]

Thatcher. Well. I have to say, I will certainly have a beer the day she goes... no need to set an alarm clock etc etc. Hers was a revolting government who singlehandedly brought riches and ruin to the country in unequal measure.

However, as someone who pursued a brutal and illegal invasion of another country on a false claim with the sheer bloody mindedness that only comes through deep seated religious fanatacism, I will possibly be buying just as many beers when Blair pops his clogs and goes to hell. Or if he ends up in the Hague, which I would prefer.

In the same way that Thatcher tainted the Tories with her supporters in the ranks, Blair in my view, has tainted Labour. Until those who support and defend his naked aggression and warmongering even today have left the Labour party, I find Labour just as poisonous as Thatcherite Tories.

[Aubenas]

There are many things I can't forgive Thatcher for - one of them being the way she opened the door for unprincipled opportunists like Bliar to march in - no wonder he admired her - but her real evil legacy lies in the way she quite calmly pursued a tactic of bread and circuses, and produced a generation of young people who ignored all her policy decisions as long as they had money in their pockets, whilst at the same time she condemned hundreds of thousands of unemployed to a pizza and dvd underworld where they were made to realise they had no importance and no influence so they should just let 'them's as knew best' get on with running the country and helping their friends become even richer. She cold bloodedly promoted apathy so she could get on with enriching those who she considered 'one of us' - and I'm not sure we will ever recover from that. Once you give approval to greed and selfishness I don't think you will ever get the genie back in the bottle.

[rightwinger]

Andrew Marr's 'History of Modern Britain' series gives a fascinating insight into the Thatcher. He concluded that Thatcherism amounted to a revolution - which always have victims (plenty in her case). He concluded that she was lucky in her enemies (such as Galtieri and Scargill - a donkey leading lions to the slaughter). He also concluded that she left the country in a stronger state than she inherited it and that we are all now - like it or not - 'children of Thatcher' - homeowning, credit card-using upper plebs largely working in the services economy.

The Heath and Wilson/Callaghan govts of the 70's need to take some blame for creating a bankrupt, union-controlled, out of touch, weak country that Thatcher was elected (comfortably - 3 times) to sort out. Blair/Brown too - they turned Labour into a neo-Thatcher party that was only different in facade.

The prime minister I have most sympathy with is Major. How he managed to keep the Tories in power for 7 years after taking over from Thatcher is beyond me. Whilst hardly a great leader himself, it was a considerable achievement by a conciliatory politician who could not have been dealt a weaker hand of cards.

Thatcher polarises Britain and she always will. It's hard to make sweeping statements though because I don't think everything was/is as black and white as some make out. She got some things right and some things badly wrong. Her ruthlessness and single-mindedness were the root cause of both her achievements and failures. The scourge of the working classes - perhaps - but there are those from the working classes that swear by her, just as there were those of privileged backgrounds that hated her as much as any.

If modern history has taught me anything - it's that the hard left and hard right are one and the same. Just as ruthless, bent, corrupt, and wicked as each other. The only difference between Hitler and Stalin is that one was a fascist and the other a communist. The miners hated Thatcher but they backed Scargill - who was just as power-crazed and self-interested as she ever was. But they forget that he caused them as much damage in the end as she did.

Hating Thatcher is fine but as a nation we need to bring the alternative parties under the same scrutiny and hold them to the same account as we do the Tory party. If we do not then nothing will ever change - and I don't think much has.

[Pete]

Andrew Marr's 'History of Modern Britain' series gives a fascinating insight into the Thatcher. He concluded that Thatcherism amounted to a revolution - which always have victims (plenty in her case). He concluded that she was lucky in her enemies (such as Galtieri and Scargill - a donkey leading lions to the slaughter). He also concluded that she left the country in a stronger state than she inherited it and that we are all now - like it or not - 'children of Thatcher' - homeowning, credit card-using upper plebs largely working in the services economy.

The Heath and Wilson/Callaghan govts of the 70's need to take some blame for creating a bankrupt, union-controlled, out of touch, weak country that Thatcher was elected (comfortably - 3 times) to sort out. Blair/Brown too - they turned Labour into a neo-Thatcher party that was only different in facade.

The prime minister I have most sympathy with is Major. How he managed to keep the Tories in power for 7 years after taking over from Thatcher is beyond me. Whilst hardly a great leader himself, it was a considerable achievement by a conciliatory politician who could not have been dealt a weaker hand of cards.

Thatcher polarises Britain and she always will. It's hard to make sweeping statements though because I don't think everything was/is as black and white as some make out. She got some things right and some things badly wrong. Her ruthlessness and single-mindedness were the root cause of both her achievements and failures. The scourge of the working classes - perhaps - but there are those from the working classes that swear by her, just as there were those of privileged backgrounds that hated her as much as any.

If modern history has taught me anything - it's that the hard left and hard right are one and the same. Just as ruthless, bent, corrupt, and wicked as each other. The only difference between Hitler and Stalin is that one was a fascist and the other a communist. The miners hated Thatcher but they backed Scargill - who was just as power-crazed and self-interested as she ever was. But they forget that he caused them as much damage in the end as she did.

Hating Thatcher is fine but as a nation we need to bring the alternative parties under the same scrutiny and hold them to the same account as we do the Tory party. If we do not then nothing will ever change - and I don't think much has.

I can't agree with that. Regardless of Scargills personality he never had self-interest at heart when it came to policy. He fought and spoke for the worker.
Labour...and Scargills policy was worker orientated and Thatchers policy was shareholder orientated.

A lot of mines weren't making money but she could easily have subsdised them. A small snip off something like the nuclear detterent budget would have made so many communities happy for decades.

All of these mines still have coal in them and a few are still working at a profit!!

The Thatcher government knew nothing about community spirit...only personal greed!

This "broken britain" thing is actually caused by her.

Fix it Cameron...and can you replace some council houses while you're at it!

[hibsbollah]

Andrew Marr's 'History of Modern Britain' series gives a fascinating insight into the Thatcher. He concluded that Thatcherism amounted to a revolution - which always have victims (plenty in her case). He concluded that she was lucky in her enemies (such as Galtieri and Scargill - a donkey leading lions to the slaughter). He also concluded that she left the country in a stronger state than she inherited it and that we are all now - like it or not - 'children of Thatcher' - homeowning, credit card-using upper plebs largely working in the services economy.

The Heath and Wilson/Callaghan govts of the 70's need to take some blame for creating a bankrupt, union-controlled, out of touch, weak country that Thatcher was elected (comfortably - 3 times) to sort out. Blair/Brown too - they turned Labour into a neo-Thatcher party that was only different in facade.

The prime minister I have most sympathy with is Major. How he managed to keep the Tories in power for 7 years after taking over from Thatcher is beyond me. Whilst hardly a great leader himself, it was a considerable achievement by a conciliatory politician who could not have been dealt a weaker hand of cards.

Thatcher polarises Britain and she always will. It's hard to make sweeping statements though because I don't think everything was/is as black and white as some make out. She got some things right and some things badly wrong. Her ruthlessness and single-mindedness were the root cause of both her achievements and failures. The scourge of the working classes - perhaps - but there are those from the working classes that swear by her, just as there were those of privileged backgrounds that hated her as much as any.

If modern history has taught me anything - it's that the hard left and hard right are one and the same. Just as ruthless, bent, corrupt, and wicked as each other. The only difference between Hitler and Stalin is that one was a fascist and the other a communist. The miners hated Thatcher but they backed Scargill - who was just as power-crazed and self-interested as she ever was. But they forget that he caused them as much damage in the end as she did.

Hating Thatcher is fine but as a nation we need to bring the alternative parties under the same scrutiny and hold them to the same account as we do the Tory party. If we do not then nothing will ever change - and I don't think much has.

This is a much-quoted cliche that doesn't stand up to analysis. The political spectrum isnt a circle, and Hitler and Stalin were very very different.

The rest of your post was very thoughtful and I agree with much of it.

[Leicester Fan]

Andrew Marr's 'History of Modern Britain'......etc

Very good post.

[Big Ed]

Andrew Marr's 'History of Modern Britain' series gives a fascinating insight into the Thatcher. He concluded that Thatcherism amounted to a revolution - which always have victims (plenty in her case). He concluded that she was lucky in her enemies (such as Galtieri and Scargill - a donkey leading lions to the slaughter). He also concluded that she left the country in a stronger state than she inherited it and that we are all now - like it or not - 'children of Thatcher' - homeowning, credit card-using upper plebs largely working in the services economy.

The Heath and Wilson/Callaghan govts of the 70's need to take some blame for creating a bankrupt, union-controlled, out of touch, weak country that Thatcher was elected (comfortably - 3 times) to sort out. Blair/Brown too - they turned Labour into a neo-Thatcher party that was only different in facade.

The prime minister I have most sympathy with is Major. How he managed to keep the Tories in power for 7 years after taking over from Thatcher is beyond me. Whilst hardly a great leader himself, it was a considerable achievement by a conciliatory politician who could not have been dealt a weaker hand of cards.

Thatcher polarises Britain and she always will. It's hard to make sweeping statements though because I don't think everything was/is as black and white as some make out. She got some things right and some things badly wrong. Her ruthlessness and single-mindedness were the root cause of both her achievements and failures. The scourge of the working classes - perhaps - but there are those from the working classes that swear by her, just as there were those of privileged backgrounds that hated her as much as any.

If modern history has taught me anything - it's that the hard left and hard right are one and the same. Just as ruthless, bent, corrupt, and wicked as each other. The only difference between Hitler and Stalin is that one was a fascist and the other a communist. The miners hated Thatcher but they backed Scargill - who was just as power-crazed and self-interested as she ever was. But they forget that he caused them as much damage in the end as she did.

Hating Thatcher is fine but as a nation we need to bring the alternative parties under the same scrutiny and hold them to the same account as we do the Tory party. If we do not then nothing will ever change - and I don't think much has.

Your post is very objective and I too agree with much of it.
As a young man growing up during the Thatcher years in Government, I despised her. Older now, I see that she was the figurehead of a form of Neo Liberal Government that would have emerged sooner rather than later as the world turned its back on Keynes and fell in love with Friedman.
The Winter of Discontent, following on the back of the IMF loan which contained conditions regarding spending cuts, meant that the British people considered the country ungovernable. This gave her the oppertunity to bring these political theories into Governement.
The part of your post that was most significant to me was the line that she polarises Britain and she always will.
I never thought I’d say this as I have enjoyed hating her, but we as a nation need to move on.
She didn’t sit up at night thinking about new policies and then unveil them to an acquiescing Cabinet full of sycophants (as portrayed in the Spitting Image programme at the time), rather she and the likes of Keith Joseph had converted the Conservatives to a form of thinking that was evolving throughout the world.
The economics of Keynes were accepted by both Conservative and Labour Governments up until 1979. I would argue that following on from the principles of Friedman’s influence in Conservative policy, the subsequent Labour Governments did little to distance themselves from his theories.
What is clear to me now is that whereas the theories of Keynes were relevant to world economics from the 1940s to the 70s, they became harder to interpret with the advance of unrestricted free trade and globalisation.
Now, the theories of Friedman and his like face the same crisis, as the economic model of a capitalist free for all has seen a world wide economic crisis and a banking system meltdown, subsequently being paid for by the Governments, and by definition, the tax-payer.
I realise that this is all a bit of a sweeping generalisation, but in trying to put Thatcher’s legacy into context, rather than dwelling on the past, we should question how much influence she has on our future.
I’d say barely any, as there is an ideological vacuum to be filled and whilst many would argue that her policies were successful at the time, they are out dated now.

[J-C]

2 characters sum up Thatchers Britain for me, Renton from Trainspotting and "Loadsamoney" Harry Enfield's character. One so depressed with life and the fact there was no end to the misery of life at that time and the other enjoying all the riches that Thatchers Britain was throwing at him.

[One Day Soon]

Thatcher. Well. I have to say, I will certainly have a beer the day she goes... no need to set an alarm clock etc etc. Hers was a revolting government who singlehandedly brought riches and ruin to the country in unequal measure.

However, as someone who pursued a brutal and illegal invasion of another country on a false claim with the sheer bloody mindedness that only comes through deep seated religious fanatacism, I will possibly be buying just as many beers when Blair pops his clogs and goes to hell. Or if he ends up in the Hague, which I would prefer.

In the same way that Thatcher tainted the Tories with her supporters in the ranks, Blair in my view, has tainted Labour. Until those who support and defend his naked aggression and warmongering even today have left the Labour party, I find Labour just as poisonous as Thatcherite Tories.

The biggest load of bollocks you have ever posted - and that's saying something.

[One Day Soon]

Andrew Marr's 'History of Modern Britain' series gives a fascinating insight into the Thatcher. He concluded that Thatcherism amounted to a revolution - which always have victims (plenty in her case). He concluded that she was lucky in her enemies (such as Galtieri and Scargill - a donkey leading lions to the slaughter). He also concluded that she left the country in a stronger state than she inherited it and that we are all now - like it or not - 'children of Thatcher' - homeowning, credit card-using upper plebs largely working in the services economy.

The Heath and Wilson/Callaghan govts of the 70's need to take some blame for creating a bankrupt, union-controlled, out of touch, weak country that Thatcher was elected (comfortably - 3 times) to sort out. Blair/Brown too - they turned Labour into a neo-Thatcher party that was only different in facade.

The prime minister I have most sympathy with is Major. How he managed to keep the Tories in power for 7 years after taking over from Thatcher is beyond me. Whilst hardly a great leader himself, it was a considerable achievement by a conciliatory politician who could not have been dealt a weaker hand of cards.

Thatcher polarises Britain and she always will. It's hard to make sweeping statements though because I don't think everything was/is as black and white as some make out. She got some things right and some things badly wrong. Her ruthlessness and single-mindedness were the root cause of both her achievements and failures. The scourge of the working classes - perhaps - but there are those from the working classes that swear by her, just as there were those of privileged backgrounds that hated her as much as any.

If modern history has taught me anything - it's that the hard left and hard right are one and the same. Just as ruthless, bent, corrupt, and wicked as each other. The only difference between Hitler and Stalin is that one was a fascist and the other a communist. The miners hated Thatcher but they backed Scargill - who was just as power-crazed and self-interested as she ever was. But they forget that he caused them as much damage in the end as she did.

Hating Thatcher is fine but as a nation we need to bring the alternative parties under the same scrutiny and hold them to the same account as we do the Tory party. If we do not then nothing will ever change - and I don't think much has.

That is incorrect. They are very different ideologically. However they can often be found colluding in the most unholy of ways for short term purposes - anyone with a reasonable background in trade unionist activity can bear testimony to that.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You've made your mind up and it doesn't matter what happens you'll still hate for the sake of hating.

I think you're starting to go a bit far, if you don't mind me saying. I really think you'd have to kno a lot more about a person than you know about me before you start accusing them of being closed minded.

I saw it happen. I saw the grinning faces of Met policemen deployed to communities 100s of miles from London, stirring the sh*t. I remember one group of them had ties with ASPTM on them (Arthur Scargill Pays the Mortgage).

I remember the view in London in 1984 that the miners were revolutionaries that had to be crushed. I remember Ian McGregor loving every minute of the strife, grinning and then shielding his face with a carrier bag. I remember Tebbit goading protestors by putting his hand to his ear mocking the fact he couldn't make out what they were saying.

As I said earlier, this is about history, not opinions. I'm sure if you take a bit of time to look at media footage and press clippings from the time, you'll see plenty evidence of glee towards the class war. Spitting Image was a commentary on what was going on at the time. Wall Street wasn't a surrealist fantasy, it was an observation of the way people were thinking.

So yes, I've made my mind up to hate her. That's because I saw the damage she did, and I see the fall out daily. Why did this not happen in Europe?

[One Day Soon]

I think you're starting to go a bit far, if you don't mind me saying. I really think you'd have to kno a lot more about a person than you know about me before you start accusing them of being closed minded.

I saw it happen. I saw the grinning faces of Met policemen deployed to communities 100s of miles from London, stirring the sh*t. I remember one group of them had ties with ASPTM on them (Arthur Scargill Pays the Mortgage).

I remember the view in London in 1984 that the miners were revolutionaries that had to be crushed. I remember Ian McGregor loving every minute of the strife, grinning and then shielding his face with a carrier bag. I remember Tebbit goading protestors by putting his hand to his ear mocking the fact he couldn't make out what they were saying.

As I said earlier, this is about history, not opinions. I'm sure if you take a bit of time to look at media footage and press clippings from the time, you'll see plenty evidence of glee towards the class war. Spitting Image was a commentary on what was going on at the time. Wall Street wasn't a surrealist fantasy, it was an observation of the way people were thinking.

So yes, I've made my mind up to hate her. That's because I saw the damage she did, and I see the fall out daily. Why did this not happen in Europe?

Utterly unrelated, but great avatar Filled.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Andrew Marr's 'History of Modern Britain' series gives a fascinating insight into the Thatcher. He concluded that Thatcherism amounted to a revolution - which always have victims (plenty in her case). He concluded that she was lucky in her enemies (such as Galtieri and Scargill - a donkey leading lions to the slaughter). He also concluded that she left the country in a stronger state than she inherited it and that we are all now - like it or not - 'children of Thatcher' - homeowning, credit card-using upper plebs largely working in the services economy.

The Heath and Wilson/Callaghan govts of the 70's need to take some blame for creating a bankrupt, union-controlled, out of touch, weak country that Thatcher was elected (comfortably - 3 times) to sort out. Blair/Brown too - they turned Labour into a neo-Thatcher party that was only different in facade.

The prime minister I have most sympathy with is Major. How he managed to keep the Tories in power for 7 years after taking over from Thatcher is beyond me. Whilst hardly a great leader himself, it was a considerable achievement by a conciliatory politician who could not have been dealt a weaker hand of cards.

Thatcher polarises Britain and she always will. It's hard to make sweeping statements though because I don't think everything was/is as black and white as some make out. She got some things right and some things badly wrong. Her ruthlessness and single-mindedness were the root cause of both her achievements and failures. The scourge of the working classes - perhaps - but there are those from the working classes that swear by her, just as there were those of privileged backgrounds that hated her as much as any.

If modern history has taught me anything - it's that the hard left and hard right are one and the same. Just as ruthless, bent, corrupt, and wicked as each other. The only difference between Hitler and Stalin is that one was a fascist and the other a communist. The miners hated Thatcher but they backed Scargill - who was just as power-crazed and self-interested as she ever was. But they forget that he caused them as much damage in the end as she did.


Hating Thatcher is fine but as a nation we need to bring the alternative parties under the same scrutiny and hold them to the same account as we do the Tory party. If we do not then nothing will ever change - and I don't think much has.

Good point about Scargill. I feel the unions have to take some responsibility. It was clear that mining was in decline, yet many of the officials were moving heaven and earth to remain in their positions of power.

I work a lot in Central Fife. I feel that management and union could have avoided the humanitarian disaster that has unfolded there, by working together to scale down coal production over a generation or so, rather than having a fight to the death like they did in 1984.

In many ways, Thatcher was kicking at an open door. Many skilled workers could see the writing on the wall, but were being taken down a cul de sac by feeble brained union leaders. For example, the type that gave nine months notice of a coal strike, allowing consumers like the SSEB to stock pile.



Utterly unrelated, but great avatar Filled.

Next! :greengrin:

[steakbake]

The biggest load of bollocks you have ever posted - and that's saying something.

Okay. So what is Tony Blair's faith all about then? Blair cited his faith on numerous occasions. God will judge me on Iraq, my faith tells me it as the right thing to do etc etc

He is a religious fanatic who defends everything they do by bypassing human judgement and leaving it up to the cloud wizard.

I know you find any criticism of the Great Party very hard to stomach, but Blair deferred most if not all of his rational decisions to religious judgement. You do not have to search far to find many articles and writing about it but you will require an open mind to read them. He has a deep seated faith and it guides and obscures everything he does.

Anyhow, that aside - our disagreement over whether Blair is a fanatic or not - what happened to the honourable members of the Labour Party then? Balls and Miliband are coming out now and saying it was a bad idea... it's far far too late.

Blair's excesses are just as deplorable as Thatcher's, if not more so and I find it harder to forgive him because he hides behind faith to deflect criticism.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Okay. So what is Tony Blair's faith all about then? Blair cited his faith on numerous occasions. God will judge me on Iraq, my faith tells me it as the right thing to do etc etc

He is a religious fanatic who defends everything they do by bypassing human judgement and leaving it up to the cloud wizard.

I know you find any criticism of the Great Party very hard to stomach, but Blair deferred most if not all of his rational decisions to religious judgement. You do not have to search far to find many articles and writing about it but you will require an open mind to read them. He has a deep seated faith and it guides and obscures everything he does.

Anyhow, that aside - our disagreement over whether Blair is a fanatic or not - what happened to the honourable members of the Labour Party then? Balls and Miliband are coming out now and saying it was a bad idea... it's far far too late.

Blair's excesses are just as deplorable as Thatcher's, if not more so and I find it harder to forgive him because he hides behind faith to deflect criticism.

IMO, they are both psychopaths.

[Leicester Fan]

I think you're starting to go a bit far, if you don't mind me saying. I really think you'd have to kno a lot more about a person than you know about me before you start accusing them of being closed minded.

I saw it happen. I saw the grinning faces of Met policemen deployed to communities 100s of miles from London, stirring the sh*t. I remember one group of them had ties with ASPTM on them (Arthur Scargill Pays the Mortgage).

I remember the view in London in 1984 that the miners were revolutionaries that had to be crushed. I remember Ian McGregor loving every minute of the strife, grinning and then shielding his face with a carrier bag. I remember Tebbit goading protestors by putting his hand to his ear mocking the fact he couldn't make out what they were saying.

As I said earlier, this is about history, not opinions. I'm sure if you take a bit of time to look at media footage and press clippings from the time, you'll see plenty evidence of glee towards the class war. Spitting Image was a commentary on what was going on at the time. Wall Street wasn't a surrealist fantasy, it was an observation of the way people were thinking.

So yes, I've made my mind up to hate her. That's because I saw the damage she did, and I see the fall out daily. Why did this not happen in Europe?

For a start the Met Police are not the Conservative party. If they were smiling, and I can believe that they were, it was probably the overtime they were earning and the chance of a bit of action, which I wouldn't condone. These police wouldn't have been necessary if Scargill hadn't sent pickets by the thousand to physically intimidate the working miners.

To say that Mrs Thatcher and the Tory party took any pleasure out of closing these pits and shattering these communities is pure speculation and for someone who voted conservative a bit offensive.

[Phil D. Rolls]

For a start the Met Police are not the Conservative party. If they were smiling, and I can believe that they were, it was probably the overtime they were earning and the chance of a bit of action, which I wouldn't condone. These police wouldn't have been necessary if Scargill hadn't sent pickets by the thousand to physically intimidate the working miners.

To say that Mrs Thatcher and the Tory party took any pleasure out of closing these pits and shattering these communities is pure speculation and for someone who voted conservative a bit offensive.

Well, I've formed my opinions on what I saw at the time. It's clear that the 80s have caused a very firm split in opinion. It's for history to judge Thatcher, some people think she did good for Britain, others don't.

Something that's been reflected in the polls ever since.

[One Day Soon]

Okay. So what is Tony Blair's faith all about then? Blair cited his faith on numerous occasions. God will judge me on Iraq, my faith tells me it as the right thing to do etc etc

I don't think you can reasonably argue as you appeared to do that he chose to intervene in Iraq for religious reasons. You can argue that the basis upon which he advocated intervention at the time does not stand up to scrutiny - specifically WMD - but I think you would be pretty hard put to evidence a claim that he did it either because he thought God was telling him to or because his Christian faith argued for it.

He is a religious fanatic who defends everything they do by bypassing human judgement and leaving it up to the cloud wizard.

Who is 'they' in this context? Do you mean that he justifies everything he has done by reference to God and that all religious fanatics do this?

I know you find any criticism of the Great Party very hard to stomach, but Blair deferred most if not all of his rational decisions to religious judgement. You do not have to search far to find many articles and writing about it but you will require an open mind to read them. He has a deep seated faith and it guides and obscures everything he does.

I find party political attacks from supporters of other parties dressed up as objective commentary pretty hard to stomach, but not fair criticism of the Labour Party nor healthy debate on what Labour achieved and failed to achieve. To suggest that Blair "deferred most if not all of his rational decision to religious judgment" is a pretty sweeping statement and again not one that I think you could easily support with evidence. Are you seriously suggesting that during Cabinet meetings and at other times he was saying to other Ministers - look I can't really explain this but I just feel God wants me/us to do it?

He does have a deep seated faith but so does Barack Obama. Are you saying that its impossible to have a faith and exercise rational decision making?

Anyhow, that aside - our disagreement over whether Blair is a fanatic or not - what happened to the honourable members of the Labour Party then? Balls and Miliband are coming out now and saying it was a bad idea... it's far far too late.

One man's fanatic is another man's prophet. To be honest I couldn't give a stuff what Balls says about anything. They guy really could start a fight in an empty room.

Where Miliband is concerned he can speak for himself. Personally I believe in an active and interventionist foreign policy where appropriate. I am not sure I have yet seen the case for it being an 'illegal' war ( I have seen many people asserting that it was but they are mostly not without motive though I accept that, like all points of law there are at least two sides) and where morality is concerned there was as much immorality in not intervening as there was in going ahead and doing so. Perhaps if Bush senior had done the job properly the first time round we would all have been spared a lot of grief. The worst bit of fence sitting in the whole episode for me at the time was the Lib Dem one of saying that if there was a second resolution at the UN then invasion was fine but if not then it wasn't. It was either right or wrong to go in and the notion that a rubber stamp from the UN made the moral difference was just ridiculous.

It was certainly a hugely disastrous decision politically for Labour - so probably not something done for narrow party advantage.

Blair's excesses are just as deplorable as Thatcher's, if not more so and I find it harder to forgive him because he hides behind faith to deflect criticism.

That's a matter of opinion really and we clearly differ.

And I didn't mean to be quite so aggressive in commenting on your contribution in my previous post.

[Betty Boop]

'Capitalism a love story' on Channel 4 now.

[WindyMiller]

I'd suggest the scapping of the Child Trust Funds is a very Thatcherite move.
Not something I'd have expected from the Lib-Dems 3 weeks ago.

[Leicester Fan]

I'd suggest the scapping of the Child Trust Funds is a very Thatcherite move.
Not something I'd have expected from the Lib-Dems 3 weeks ago.

It was in their manifesto.

[Beefster]

I'd suggest the scapping of the Child Trust Funds is a very Thatcherite move.
Not something I'd have expected from the Lib-Dems 3 weeks ago.

Despite my son having benefitted from this, I'd say that scrapping a benefit that doesn't actually do anything for 18 years and is given to everyone whether their family earns £250k or £15k is perfectly sensible.

If ever there was a complete waste of public money, it was the Child Trust Fund.

[hibsbollah]

Despite my son having benefitted from this, I'd say that scrapping a benefit that doesn't actually do anything for 18 years and is given to everyone whether their family earns £250k or £15k is perfectly sensible.

If ever there was a complete waste of public money, it was the Child Trust Fund.

In a national economy with low levels of personal savings, giving everyone a start on the road to saving for their kids was a principled policy that benefited the poor disproportionately and will be sadly missed.

[steakbake]

In a national economy with low levels of personal savings, giving everyone a start on the road to saving for their kids was a principled policy that benefited the poor disproportionately and will be sadly missed.

I suppose it comes down to how you see the role of government. Personally, I don't think it is for the government to set up a personal savings plan for each and every citizen who has a kid. Certainly saving should be encouraged, but there's other ways of doing that apart from doling out the first instalment.

The trust fund is as you say, a principled policy, but it is possible that sometimes principles just aren't practical. Its the difference between idealism and reality.

[hibsbollah]

I suppose it comes down to how you see the role of government. Personally, I don't think it is for the government to set up a personal savings plan for each and every citizen who has a kid. Certainly saving should be encouraged, but there's other ways of doing that apart from doling out the first instalment.

The trust fund is as you say, a principled policy, but it is possible that sometimes principles just aren't practical. Its the difference between idealism and reality.

The principle we can argue; personally I support the Child Trust Fund for the reasons ive outlined in my last post. I can, however, see the argument for concentrating it on poorer parents-in which case, scrap it for families earning over (say) £50k per year and keep it for the rest. The practicality issue? The total cost of the Child Trust Fund this year is £320 million. Compare that to the ringfenced defence budget, (of which the Trident weapons system, designed to destroy Russian cities, makes up about 6%), or the withdrawal of Inheritance Tax on 100k+ earnings, and you see that its just a drop in the ocean when it comes to our overall debt reduction.

[Beefster]

In a national economy with low levels of personal savings, giving everyone a start on the road to saving for their kids was a principled policy that benefited the poor disproportionately and will be sadly missed.

As steakbake has said, it comes down to how much involvement in the minutiae of people's lives that the state should have and where you think personal responsibility should take over.

I've read of NHS proposals to pay people to stop smoking and drinking. That'll be a new low if it goes ahead.