Winning while in debt

[Borders Hibby]

With our league champions in such a dire financial state, as are our cup winners should the SFA not have tighter rules on spending, wages and there relationship to turnover? Is it not just a form of cheating?

[Biggie]

With our league champions in such a dire financial state, as are our cup winners should the SFA not have tighter rules on spending, wages and there relationship to turnover? Is it not just a form of cheating?
agree 100%, why should clubs try and keep finances in check whilst others spend freely ?.....bloody joke.
There should be far more governance in football, irresponsible spending is cheating....the story of rangers is case in point...hope they go down and teach other clubs. BTW Hearts an awe :wink:

[bingo70]

With our league champions in such a dire financial state, as are our cup winners should the SFA not have tighter rules on spending, wages and there relationship to turnover? Is it not just a form of cheating?

completely agree, Livi beating us in that league cup final still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth because of that.

When Gretna were in the process of folding the SFA said then that they guaranteed nothing like that would be allowed to happen again but as usual they've done cock all about it, they've got a system in France where i think if your found to be spending outwith your means you get relegated and look how competitive there league is, IMO we need to be doing something similiar.

[Vini1875]

I disagree I hope the huns and hearts spend themselves into oblivion. C'mon the tax man

[MrSmith]

In reality, Rangers should be kicked out of the Champions League and Celtic should be installed instead. I'm not a Celtic fan by any means but they have run their finances correctly and prudently and have gotten where they are because of it.

Rangers on the other hand....fraudulent and if this was financially regulated then they could be done under the competition rules for creating a monopoly in the marketplace.

Absolutely despicable the SPL/SFL/SFA wont do anything about it - self interest and serving methinks!


All ****ing rotten to the core!:grr::grr:

[Hibercelona]

Who cares about teams spending more than they can afford.

It's them that will get shafted in the long run. So just let them get on with it.

[Borders Hibby]

completely agree, Livi beating us in that league cup final still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth because of that.

When Gretna were in the process of folding the SFA said then that they guaranteed nothing like that would be allowed to happen again but as usual they've done cock all about it, they've got a system in France where i think if your found to be spending outwith your means you get relegated and look how competitive there league is, IMO we need to be doing something similiar.

Forgot about Livi, that truly did stink!:agree:

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Who cares about teams spending more than they can afford.

It's them that will get shafted in the long run. So just let them get on with it.

That sounds fine in theory but until that happens what about the DISILLUSIONMENT of the fans - many of which suffering financial hardships themselves - why do they bother whilst the unlevel playing field is maintained. It's a vicious cycle and something needs to be done Platini talked the talk but I think once he got in found walking the walk harder. But I've always maintained its the authorities/regulators who need to step in. Otherwise they are redundant. Either way they should be brought to task on this one.

[--------]

That sounds fine in theory but until that happens what about the DISILLUSIONMENT of the fans - many of which suffering financial hardships themselves - why do they bother whilst the unlevel playing field is maintained. It's a vicious cycle and something needs to be done Platini talked the talk but I think once he got in found walking the walk harder. But I've always maintained its the authorities/regulators who need to step in. Otherwise they are redundant. Either way they should be brought to task on this one.




:agree: It's easy to forget that when a club like Gretna goes off on a spending spree, buying success on the field without regard to good management, they're buying that success at the expense of the fans of the other teams they're playing against.

If they were only hurting themselves, I'd agree with letting clubs like Hearts, Rangers, Dundee, Livingston, Gretna and others get on with it. But why should Hibs and clubs like us suffer because we operate legally and responsibly and do the things responsible clubs do, like building proper training facilities, modernising and upgrading our stadiums, and balancing our books by operating within budget?

And when we do this, and the team suffers because the budget isn't there to make big signings, and the fans become frustrated and disillusioned, does the SFA/SPL/whoever step in to sort things out and make the game fair? Of course not. Nor does UEFA. Nor does FIFA.

Platini talked the talk, but IMO expecting him to sort out corruption in the game was like expecting the fox to guard the henhouse. Great footballer, but I wouldn't trust him as far as I could drop-kick him.

[Jack]

Did someone suggest this predicament may have been the reason Gordon Smith has stepped down?




Maybe Gordon Brown too given his recent place at a hunnery top table???

[Kaiser1962]

:agree: It's easy to forget that when a club like Gretna goes off on a spending spree, buying success on the field without regard to good management, they're buying that success at the expense of the fans of the other teams they're playing against.

If they were only hurting themselves, I'd agree with letting clubs like Hearts, Rangers, Dundee, Livingston, Gretna and others get on with it. But why should Hibs and clubs like us suffer because we operate legally and responsibly and do the things responsible clubs do, like building proper training facilities, modernising and upgrading our stadiums, and balancing our books by operating within budget?

And when we do this, and the team suffers because the budget isn't there to make big signings, and the fans become frustrated and disillusioned, does the SFA/SPL/whoever step in to sort things out and make the game fair? Of course not. Nor does UEFA. Nor does FIFA.

Platini talked the talk, but IMO expecting him to sort out corruption in the game was like expecting the fox to guard the henhouse. Great footballer, but I wouldn't trust him as far as I could drop-kick him.

Agree with all this Doddie. Then we get into a struggle for Darren Barr and get outbid in the wages department by a club thats (at least) £35m in debt on a turnover of £8.3m. I say at least because the way the accounts were presented a number of debts were not included. And when you look at the can of worms that is Rangers FC imagine what the Yams finances are REALLY like! I can envisage the Yams going into administration somehow and those fuds over there presenting this as a victory that was part of the plan all the time.

We were only JOKING when we said we would win the Champions League in three years etc etc etc

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Agree with all this Doddie. Then we get into a struggle for Darren Barr and get outbid in the wages department by a club thats (at least) £35m in debt on a turnover of £8.3m. I say at least because the way the accounts were presented a number of debts were not included. And when you look at the can of worms that is Rangers FC imagine what the Yams finances are REALLY like! I can envisage the Yams going into administration somehow and those fuds over there presenting this as a victory that was part of the plan all the time.

We were only JOKING when we said we would win the Champions League in three years etc etc etc

Yup lets stop short of joining in the game of lemmings.
In a game of last man standing I be on Hibs

[Kojock]

Thanks to Rod Petrie Hibs are one of the best run clubs in Britain. We have our own training ground, a stadium to be proud of and a managable debt.

Rod has always said that Hibs were a long term project and once the infrastructure was in place more money would be invested in the playing squad.

Over the next few years we will see the benefits and will be challenging for the top honours on a regular basis.

The futures bright the futures green & white. GGTTH

[blackpoolhibs]

Thanks to Rod Petrie Hibs are one of the best run clubs in Britain. We have our own training ground, a stadium to be proud of and a managable debt.

Rod has always said that Hibs were a long term project and once the infrastructure was in place more money would be invested in the playing squad.

Over the next few years we will see the benefits and will be challenging for the top honours on a regular basis.

The futures bright the futures green & white. GGTTH
Yip, and one who was not happy when we seemed to be lagging behind, i dont mind admitting i was wrong.

And the long term plan he put in, seems to be working. The rest of the league don't have tuppence to rub together, yet we are building new stands and training centres. Next its the team, and i believe thats what we will see now.:top marks

[Kojock]

Next its the team, and i believe thats what we will see now.:top marks

Theres no doubt about it, whilst other teams are getting rid of their top earners (Huns & Hertz come to mind) Hibs are able to strengthen their squad.

Interesting times ahead methinks..............:thumbsup:

[BSEJVT]

Sorry Guys but I find all of this a bit hypocritical and holier than thou.

Its all a matter of degree

Hibs have probably lost money in at least 5 of the last 10 seasons minimum.

Probably all of the last 10 if player sales were excluded and lets not forget that the availability of players to sell is to some extent a bit of luck.

Its not that long ago we were well in excess of £10m in debt.

We will, I would guess, after this stand be built be in excess of £5m in debt, if you exclude advance season ticket monies.

Moving in the right direction? absolutely, whiter than white? no

Isnt there an argument therefore that we have profited in the past by spending money we didnt have, just like everyone else over the likes of say Falkirk?

To the credit of the board, and a few of the more enlightened fans in the face of widespread condemnation, Hibs saw the problem looming and have started to deal with it.

Lets not forget though that we lost IIRC over £2m last year before the sale of Jones & Fletcher and that our enlightened board did so to prop up a team decimated by the sales of the very players who reduced our debt and enabled the expenditure we now herald as a sign of good management.

Without that relaxation of budget which came on borrowed money at the time, might we have been relegated or at least in a relegation fight?

Until leagues properly determine overall salary caps for teams based on free revenue after servicing debts and admin expenses then very little will change.

Even then is that what we want?

Imagine in 2 years Hibs had very little debt but were having a mare of a time, wouldnt we want the board to increase the debt a liitle bit, within manageable levels to pull us out of it as repayment for the years of frugality and because it wouldnt threaten our long term future?

I have vociferously supported the board in its actions over the last 10 years, but lets not pretend we havent been extraordinarly lucky as well.

Just a thought but mibbe the reason we are all miserable *******s and ranting at the team the whole time is beacuse we have suffered for it?

Do you really think that DUFC fans today give a flying one that they exist at their present level on the back of the Thomson family's largesse and that cuts are coming?

Would any of us if Hibs won that cup?

[jgl07]

Sorry Guys but I find all of this a bit hypocritical and holier than thou.

Its all a matter of degree

Hibs have probably lost money in at least 5 of the last 10 seasons minimum.

Probably all of the last 10 if player sales were excluded and lets not forget that the availability of players to sell is to some extent a bit of luck.

Its not that long ago we were well in excess of £10m in debt.

Was that down to paying too high wages?

I think not. That was down to dodgy property deals by a previous regime. Hibs have generally been parsimonious with wages apart from a brief spell in when Petrie and Farmer allowed McLeish too much leeway. That was soon corrected.

What Hearts are doing under Romanov and to some extent under the Pieman and Wallet are way different. They started with pretty well zero debts and have overspent on wages systematically for twenty years.

Rangers have also overspent to gain success and used some 'creative' accounting with HMRC and appear to be about to be brought to book.

[BSEJVT]

Was that down to paying too high wages?

I think not. That was down to dodgy property deals by a previous regime. Hibs have generally been parsimonious with wages apart from a brief spell in when Petrie and Farmer allowed McLeish too much leeway. That was soon corrected.

What Hearts are doing under Romanov and to some extent under the Pieman and Wallet are way different. They started with pretty well zero debts and have overspent on wages systematically for twenty years.

Rangers have also overspent to gain success and used some 'creative' accounting with HMRC and appear to be about to be brought to book.

I am talking post STF take over and yes, a large part of it was down too paying too high wages especially in the Mcleish era.

You could argue the point that Collins and Mixu's player recruitment expansion would also have caused debts of circa £3m without player sales as well and I would bet good money we post a trading loss this year without player sales of upwards of £1m & possibly £2m

Regardless of how its accrued and I accept a large portion of ours was through stadium / training centre redevelopment, its a debt the club has to fund.

There's no doubt that if these clubs are being forced to spend within their means whilst repaying debt that it will be to our benefit.

However we are by no means finished going down that road ourselves and I find it a bit hypocritical that we decry other teams for debt when it is that debt and STF's benevolence that have stopped us being in their shoes some years ago.

[WindyMiller]

I am talking post STF take over and yes, a large part of it was down too paying too high wages especially in the Mcleish era.

You could argue the point that Collins and Mixu's player recruitment expansion would also have caused debts of circa £3m without player sales as well and I would bet good money we post a trading loss this year without player sales of upwards of £1m & possibly £2m

Regardless of how its accrued and I accept a large portion of ours was through stadium / training centre redevelopment, its a debt the club has to fund.

There's no doubt that if these clubs are being forced to spend within their means whilst repaying debt that it will be to our benefit.

However we are by no means finished going down that road ourselves and I find it a bit hypocritical that we decry other teams for debt when it is that debt and STF's benevolence that have stopped us being in their shoes some years ago.

There's a big difference between our situation and those of the Hertz'n'Huns. We have/had debts that are/were managable ( our biggest debt atm is our mortgage) and have not done anything (afaik) to break the law regarding players payments.

I'm surprised that no-one is taking into account the people who won't be getting the money that's due to them, uncluding us, the tax-payer.

[Fife-Hibee]

Yip, and one who was not happy when we seemed to be lagging behind, i dont mind admitting i was wrong.

And the long term plan he put in, seems to be working. The rest of the league don't have tuppence to rub together, yet we are building new stands and training centres. Next its the team, and i believe thats what we will see now.:top marks

Right thats it ' im on my way to renew my season ticket. Thanks Blackpool,:dizzy:

[BSEJVT]

There's a big difference between our situation and those of the Hertz'n'Huns. We have/had debts that are/were managable ( our biggest debt atm is our mortgage) and have not done anything (afaik) to break the law regarding players payments.

I'm surprised that no-one is taking into account the people who won't be getting the money that's due to them, uncluding us, the tax-payer.

Dont disagree at all that it s different.

My point is that virtually every club relies on debt, at some stage to get it through so its a bit hypocritical to criticise.

What's manageable to you might be overkill to me.

If the question is should they get the book thrown at them for breaking the law. Absolutely

[Kaiser1962]

Dont disagree at all that it s different.

My point is that virtually every club relies on debt, at some stage to get it through so its a bit hypocritical to criticise.

What's manageable to you might be overkill to me.

If the question is should they get the book thrown at them for breaking the law. Absolutely

Most companies have a debt/overdraft facility thats not the issue. When STF took over Hibs and he and Rod allowed the debt to get to £17.5m there was never really any doubt that it would get paid, ultimately by STF in neccessary. Hearts will be forever reliant on Vlad and will never trade out of this without him. The huns might trade but will require a long time and will they took the hits that we did. Training up and selling on players is a way or raising revenue and the amount that we manage cant be totally down to luck and to suggest it is is doing a disservive to the youth coaches. Enland is slightly different in that the scale of the cash involved is much bigger but even ManU at £504.7m is against a turnover of around £300m. Hearts £35m debt is four times their £8.3m turnover. bear in mind Hearts are still at £35m after DFE swaps and player sales toalling £27m in the past two-three years.

[BSEJVT]

Most companies have a debt/overdraft facility thats not the issue. When STF took over Hibs and he and Rod allowed the debt to get to £17.5m there was never really any doubt that it would get paid, ultimately by STF in neccessary. Hearts will be forever reliant on Vlad and will never trade out of this without him. The huns might trade but will require a long time and will they took the hits that we did. Training up and selling on players is a way or raising revenue and the amount that we manage cant be totally down to luck and to suggest it is is doing a disservive to the youth coaches. Enland is slightly different in that the scale of the cash involved is much bigger but even ManU at £504.7m is against a turnover of around £300m. Hearts £35m debt is four times their £8.3m turnover. bear in mind Hearts are still at £35m after DFE swaps and player sales toalling £27m in the past two-three years.

Not saying the "golden generation" making it as players sellable for big money was down to luck, far from it.

But I have supported Hibs for 40 years and have never seen a bunch of players sold in such short order for so much cash and dont expect to again.

Also the OF will no longer be in the market for such players for a long time, so even if they broke through now would they raise as much cash?

Absolutely Hibs have been shrewder than most, bit the bullet earlier and should prosper better than virtually anyone else bar Celtic who have similarly low levels of debt on far bigger turnover.

But the fact we are where we are is at least partly down to a few things coming together at once, some we could influence, others which we could not, IMO that is the lucky bit.

Also IMO you cant use STF as our never played would be get out of jail free card and then dismiss Rangers David Murray one, played far too often so glibly.

If Murray's business interests had not taken such a clobbering, whose to say their present problems would have even surfaced.

FWIW Murray has put infinitely more money in to Rangers than STF has to Hibs.

STF's capital input is minimal, what he has done though is ride shotgun for the club and guranteed the borrowing.

I for one thank god each night for STF and that approach, as when your fairy godmother disappears a la Murray, you are up the creek without a paddle if you have been relying on them to bail you out.

[Kaiser1962]

Not saying the "golden generation" making it as players sellable for big money was down to luck, far from it.
.

Just wanted to pick this bit out but am in agreement with almost all that you say. It could be argued that the players that came through at this time and were played in the first team was down to circumstance in that we were utterly skint at the time and had no option as we could not afford to bring other player in. Rangers with Wilson is an example if they weren't up the creek would he have got anywhere near the first team. Sometimes it works and at others it dosent. If we couldnt have afforded Stokes would Byrne have played more this season? How would he have done? Alternatively this could go on forever but we are all agreed thank f u ck we are not Hearts and thank god STF isnt Mad Vlad.

[BSEJVT]

Just wanted to pick this bit out but am in agreement with almost all that you say. It could be argued that the players that came through at this time and were played in the first team was down to circumstance in that we were utterly skint at the time and had no option as we could not afford to bring other player in. Rangers with Wilson is an example if they weren't up the creek would he have got anywhere near the first team. Sometimes it works and at others it dosent. If we couldnt have afforded Stokes would Byrne have played more this season? How would he have done? Alternatively this could go on forever but we are all agreed thank f u ck we are not Hearts and thank god STF isnt Mad Vlad.

Amen to that

[Phil D. Rolls]

In reality, Rangers should be kicked out of the Champions League and Celtic should be installed instead. I'm not a Celtic fan by any means but they have run their finances correctly and prudently and have gotten where they are because of it.

Rangers on the other hand....fraudulent and if this was financially regulated then they could be done under the competition rules for creating a monopoly in the marketplace.

Absolutely despicable the SPL/SFL/SFA wont do anything about it - self interest and serving methinks!


All ****ing rotten to the core!:grr::grr:

Dave Spart (The Alternative Voice) writes:

Yes, financial regulation has done an excellent job of protecting us from unscrupulous bankers. Er, I think that following the practices of business so that anyone who spends outwith their means should be put out of business, er, and not expect the rest of us to look on as they continue to live a life of excess, er, whilst we scramble around trying to get by on what is left over, er

[proud_and_green]

Not saying the "golden generation" making it as players sellable for big money was down to luck, far from it.

But I have supported Hibs for 40 years and have never seen a bunch of players sold in such short order for so much cash and dont expect to again.

Also the OF will no longer be in the market for such players for a long time, so even if they broke through now would they raise as much cash?

Absolutely Hibs have been shrewder than most, bit the bullet earlier and should prosper better than virtually anyone else bar Celtic who have similarly low levels of debt on far bigger turnover.

But the fact we are where we are is at least partly down to a few things coming together at once, some we could influence, others which we could not, IMO that is the lucky bit.

Also IMO you cant use STF as our never played would be get out of jail free card and then dismiss Rangers David Murray one, played far too often so glibly.

If Murray's business interests had not taken such a clobbering, whose to say their present problems would have even surfaced.

FWIW Murray has put infinitely more money in to Rangers than STF has to Hibs.

STF's capital input is minimal, what he has done though is ride shotgun for the club and guranteed the borrowing.

I for one thank god each night for STF and that approach, as when your fairy godmother disappears a la Murray, you are up the creek without a paddle if you have been relying on them to bail you out.

I think it is difficult to say where the line is drawn and that would be the danger in starting to proscribe this sort of action. All businesses run with debt, the key is though that they should be within the terms of their business plan. What level of debt would be acceptable and what would not. Presumably a debt to turnover ratio based on a set repayment period.

But is it wrong to run with a level of debt if you are not actually going into administration, receivership etc.

There is an argument that in britain our insolvency laws discourage entrepeneurs and i accept that we really want more stability than a in/out entrenpreneur might offer.

I think a wider problem in the 80s and 90s was the ridiculous laws that the Guardians of the game placed on the clubs, this was to an extent what caused a lot of the debt together with the rise of player power and stupid decisions made by boards.

Do the SFA audit club accounts to ensure finacial integrity. perhaps that should be a qualification for membership of the league? Although who would trust the SFA to get it right!!!

[--------]

I think it is difficult to say where the line is drawn and that would be the danger in starting to proscribe this sort of action. All businesses run with debt, the key is though that they should be within the terms of their business plan. What level of debt would be acceptable and what would not. Presumably a debt to turnover ratio based on a set repayment period.

But is it wrong to run with a level of debt if you are not actually going into administration, receivership etc.

There is an argument that in britain our insolvency laws discourage entrepeneurs and i accept that we really want more stability than a in/out entrenpreneur might offer.

I think a wider problem in the 80s and 90s was the ridiculous laws that the Guardians of the game placed on the clubs, this was to an extent what caused a lot of the debt together with the rise of player power and stupid decisions made by boards.

Do the SFA audit club accounts to ensure finacial integrity. perhaps that should be a qualification for membership of the league? Although who would trust the SFA to get it right!!!


I think the answer to that would be a resounding NO. They may require to see the accounts annually, but I've never heard of them doing anything about any club whose financial integrity was in doubt.

I have no problem with a club running with a normal level of debt - that is, a level of debt that is manageable, agreed with the bank, and commensurate with the club's assets and turnover.

I DO object to clubs like Hearts operating with debt-levels way beyond this - it does the club concerned no good in the long-term and brings disrepute on the club and the League, possibly discouraging other investors from putting money in. I also object to clubs like Motherwell who have clearly failed to put their stadium into proper order while still spending money on the team. The state of Fir Park is a disgrace to the whole game in Scotland - this is what foreign TV viewers see as an SPL-standard stadium, after all. (Even calling that place a 'stadium' is a joke, IMO.)

When the SPL was set up, certain rules and criteria were established for stadia. Some clubs made plans and found the investment to meet those criteria; others muddled through any old how. Remember how we were relegated with an SPL-compliant stadium, while Dundee took our place having made NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER to meet the SPL's requirements? Or the problems that Falkirk had?

The clubs that moved to meet the SPL's requirements have very largely all found that the work they did on their grounds and facilities has had a negative effect on their teams' performances.

Simply, they've put effort and investment into improving their infrastructures - long-tern investment of resources - rather than ignoring the inadequacy of their stadiums etc while paying wages they really couldn't afford, and signing players they really couldn't afford for short-term advantage. Gretna is the most glaring example of this, but there are others.

There should be regulations dealing with this, and effective sanctions to put an end to it.

[HibeeMG]

completely agree, Livi beating us in that league cup final still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth because of that.

I totally agree with what you're saying but just wanted to point out that the man who was to blame for that defeat wasn't the Livi bank manager. Step forward Mr Bobby Williamson!

Sorry, but like you, it still hurts to this day.

[jgl07]

I totally agree with what you're saying but just wanted to point out that the man who was to blame for that defeat wasn't the Livi bank manager. Step forward Mr Bobby Williamson!

Sorry, but like you, it still hurts to this day.
Was he to blame for Hibs beating Celtic and Rangers on the way to the final?

[HibeeMG]

Was he to blame for Hibs beating Celtic and Rangers on the way to the final?

He definitely gets plaudits from me for those results.

He set the team up perfectly against Celtic at ER.

Bringing on Dobbie in the Semi was perfectly timed.

But I don't want to hijack this thread into a Bobby Williamson bashing one.

He got it totally wrong in the final and that's why we lost. Livingston had quite an easy route there IIRC. For these reasons I've never felt that Livi's debt levels had anything to do with it.

This is the only time that I think that is the case though. Rangers and Hearts should definitely be investigated and brought to task by the powers that be.

[seanraff07]

He definitely gets plaudits from me for those results.

He set the team up perfectly against Celtic at ER.

Bringing on Dobbie in the Semi was perfectly timed.

But I don't want to hijack this thread into a Bobby Williamson bashing one.

He got it totally wrong in the final and that's why we lost. Livingston had quite an easy route there IIRC. For these reasons I've never felt that Livi's debt levels had anything to do with it.

This is the only time that I think that is the case though. Rangers and Hearts should definitely be investigated and brought to task by the powers that be.

You could say that it didn't have an effect on that Final.

But it certainly did in the league, Livi's first season in the SPL after getting promoted they finished 3rd in the league. And you can't be telling me you can come from a team that's just been promoted to the best team outwith the OF all in a season without spending cash to do so. I'm not saying they were the best team outwith the OF for a long time, but they were that season.

[HibeeMG]

You could say that it didn't have an effect on that Final.

But it certainly did in the league, Livi's first season in the SPL after getting promoted they finished 3rd in the league. And you can't be telling me you can come from a team that's just been promoted to the best team outwith the OF all in a season without spending cash to do so. I'm not saying they were the best team outwith the OF for a long time, but they were that season.

I totally agree with you. Livi that year, and their subsequent demise, are a great example of how teams can buy their way to glory and hopefully is a good example of what happens if you do.

[seanraff07]

I totally agree with you. Livi that year, and their subsequent demise, are a great example of how teams can buy their way to glory and hopefully is a good example of what happens if you do.

Yep, and the more their debt increased, they couldn't afford to spend money at the rate they were resulting in them slipping down the league gradually until they were relegated.

[HibeeMG]

Yep, and the more their debt increased, they couldn't afford to spend money at the rate they were resulting in them slipping down the league gradually until they were relegated.

What is really annoying also is that they're still doing it!!

They've paid players full-time wages in the Scottish Third Division. Wages that wouldn't be out of place at the top of the First Division.

So basically they've bought that title this year.

[seanraff07]

What is really annoying also is that they're still doing it!!

They've paid players full-time wages in the Scottish Third Division. Wages that wouldn't be out of place at the top of the First Division.

So basically they've bought that title this year.

Yep, i wouldn't be surprised if they get promoted again next season aswell to Division 1.

Then could be SPL after that, and it will be pretty repetitive but will always get their way to the top by luring players with big wages which realistically they cannot afford but still get away with doing so anyway.

[Allant1981]

What is really annoying also is that they're still doing it!!

They've paid players full-time wages in the Scottish Third Division. Wages that wouldn't be out of place at the top of the First Division.

So basically they've bought that title this year.


big deal, you could say the same for every single team in the world that wins their league. There arent many if any teams now that have 11 players from their own country winning the league, we done it when we won the first division

[seanraff07]

big deal, you could say the same for every single team in the world that wins their league. There arent many if any teams now that have 11 players from their own country winning the league, we done it when we won the first division

Our debt then began to increase while McLeish was at us in the SPL and we payed the price. We learnt our lesson and still to this day we spend our money carefully and never go out of our depth with the wages we offer. The reason why Hearts haven't bought their way to 'success' though apart from the SC. Is because they are paying players who are pretty **** a lot of wages and aren't using these wages that they are offering as an advantage because they haven't really signed any players recently who have been that good. But they have been able to hang on to their better players longer than we have, i.e. Lee Wallace, if they werent playing him £10,000+ a week then he would have been long gone by now, but because he's earning not far off what he would at either of the OF he is still there. But the minute Hibs players decide whether to stay or not based on wages they are off in a flash.

[HibeeMG]

big deal, you could say the same for every single team in the world that wins their league. There arent many if any teams now that have 11 players from their own country winning the league, we done it when we won the first division

They had just been dropped down two divisions for going into administration. You'd have thought that they might've tightened the old purse strings? Nope, not them.

They probably would've won the league without paying all those wages.

[Allant1981]

They had just been dropped down two divisions for going into administration. You'd have thought that they might've tightened the old purse strings? Nope, not them.

They probably would've won the league without paying all those wages.


but its a total different outfit running them now, experienced guys who i doubt would let the club get into that position again. I dont understand how you think they would have won the league without paying decent wages, you get what you pay for. pay crap wages then you get crap players. end result 9 times out of 10 you dont win anything

[HibeeDaz6270]

What is really annoying also is that they're still doing it!!

They've paid players full-time wages in the Scottish Third Division. Wages that wouldn't be out of place at the top of the First Division.

So basically they've bought that title this year.

Out of interest what players are on these wages that wouldnt be out of place at the top of division 1?

I dont know much about them, but i thought the majority of there team was made up of young prospects from the youth teams who are on £150 - £200 or so full time.

I understand there probably would be a few players still on bigger wages, but when players are contracted there is not much else they could do?

[HibeeMG]

Out of interest what players are on these wages that wouldnt be out of place at the top of division 1?

I dont know much about them, but i thought the majority of there team was made up of young prospects from the youth teams who are on £150 - £200 or so full time.

I understand there probably would be a few players still on bigger wages, but when players are contracted there is not much else they could do?

They've effectively racked up another 300k or so of debt.

Most of the squad was full time. Robbie Winters, Jim Hamilton, Roddie MacKenzie as well as Fox, Halliday etc.

The board had said that they would go part time next year to try and cut their cloth but that's looking dodgy.

There's also allegations of money still not being properly used. Wouldn't be surprised if they hit admin again.. which would, as you'll know, be the THIRD time!

[jgl07]

I totally agree with you. Livi that year, and their subsequent demise, are a great example of how teams can buy their way to glory and hopefully is a good example of what happens if you do.
In the final, Livingston had the bigger, stronger and moire experienced players. Hibs had a load of kids out. The team with the likes of O'Connor, Riordan, Brown, Thomson, Caldwell, Doumbe, etc looks good now but they were very raw at the time. Livingston certainly had players that Hibs could not afford with a fraction of the support.

I don't blame Williamson for the result, the Hibs players froze soewhat on the day. I would question why Alan Reid was preferred to Whittaker but otherwise he put out the strongest team that Hibs had available.

[HibeeMG]

In the final, Livingston had the bigger, stronger and moire experienced players. Hibs had a load of kids out. The team with the likes of O'Connor, Riordan, Brown, Thomson, Caldwell, Doumbe, etc looks good now but they were very raw at the time. Livingston certainly had players that Hibs could not afford with a fraction of the support.

I don't blame Williamson for the result, the Hibs players froze soewhat on the day. I would question why Alan Reid was preferred to Whittaker but otherwise he put out the strongest team that Hibs had available.

The main gripe at the time was that we played long balls all the time.

Murdoch and Doumbe just weren't good enough with their distribution to do that.

Garry O'Connor wasn't a target man of that type. Marvin Andrews ate him up! Every time it happened they hit us on the break.

Williamson should have spotted that and changed things around at half time, which we were lucky to go in at 0-0.

He didn't and both their goals in the 2nd half were on the break.

We had by far a better midfield than them. The same players that ran Celtic into the ground at ER in the Quarters.