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View Full Version : How much trouble are the Huns in?



Kaiser1962
16-05-2010, 09:27 AM
NOTW reporting that Rangers owe the taxman £24m but are appealing this amount and if they lose could rise to £54m. This is only the taxman. Bear in mind they owe the bank £30m and, it has been suggested, they are into Murray International for £100m.

Dont know what the outcome of all this will be but if they can avoid this debt by going into administration then it is a pretty poor show and I'm pretty sure that this is would be an abuse, in spirit at least, of the administation legislation.

1two
16-05-2010, 09:40 AM
would 10 spl points be deducted for next season?

Kaiser1962
16-05-2010, 09:46 AM
would 10 spl points be deducted for next season?

Seems a bit like getting off the hook to me. Hardly going to hurt them really is it. Lose (potentially) over £150m and get a 10 point deduction? £15m a point? Seems like a good deal to me but the whole issue would then be why would anybody pay their bills? Lets spend £100m trying to win the league and if it dosent work we go into administration in a couple of years and carry on as we are now. Lets try it......

Arch Stanton
16-05-2010, 09:47 AM
NOTW reporting that Rangers owe the taxman £24m but are appealing this amount and if they lose could rise to £54m. This is only the taxman. Bear in mind they owe the bank £30m and, it has been suggested, they are into Murray International for £100m.

Dont know what the outcome of all this will be but if they can avoid this debt by going into administration then it is a pretty poor show and I'm pretty sure that this is would be an abuse, in spirit at least, of the administation legislation.

I hadn't realised it was so bad - administration does look likely from that.

It isn't abuse though, even if they get away with a points deduction (or whatever the slap in the wrist is in Scotland these days), that's just what administration is.

There could well be a couple of consortiums in line to buy the club from the receiver so you'd reckon the taxman and the bank wont be too hard hit - different story for ordinary creditors though.

magpie1892
16-05-2010, 09:47 AM
NOTW reporting that Rangers owe the taxman £24m but are appealing this amount and if they lose could rise to £54m. This is only the taxman. Bear in mind they owe the bank £30m and, it has been suggested, they are into Murray International for £100m.

Dont know what the outcome of all this will be but if they can avoid this debt by going into administration then it is a pretty poor show and I'm pretty sure that this is would be an abuse, in spirit at least, of the administation legislation.

How delicious it would be if the hun went to the wall. The club (such as it is, it's not a proper football club in the same sense that even Hearts is) would survive but I think any further decrease in the quality of the product we be all the excuse tens of thousands of the 'loyal' need to call it a day and we could have 8,000 in Ibrox (again).

Sweet.

mcfly
16-05-2010, 09:48 AM
throwr them out of europe just like portsmouth.

then relegate them to the 3rd division like gretna & livingston.

then see how "loyal" the fans are

Bostonhibby
16-05-2010, 09:51 AM
Absolutely nae sympathy, in fact, absolute joy - all the "lesser" clubs in Scotland have to pay their taxes proportionate to their income. The income is the key to it, You have to have earned the money to pay tax on it so what have they done with the tax part? Most businesses set it aside.

what separates this financially and morally bankrupt shower, from reality is their arrogance in believing it would all go away (recognise a pattern here?) or that because of who they were the debts would never be allowed to come home to roost.

There probably are certain institutions who, for their own reasons would never want to upset the Huns, but it seems like Her Majestys Revenue and Customs ain't one of them, and its such a shame because they pledge their loyalty every week and sing some nice songs about her.

Come on You Maj - you know it makes sense - get our money in.

Kaiser1962
16-05-2010, 09:51 AM
I hadn't realised it was so bad - administration does look likely from that.

It isn't abuse though, even if they get away with a points deduction (or whatever the slap in the wrist is in Scotland these days), that's just what administration is.

There could well be a couple of consortiums in line to buy the club from the receiver so you'd reckon the taxman and the bank wont be too hard hit - different story for ordinary creditors though.

I would beg to differ over administration crabit. The point of going into administration is to protect a company from it's creditors at a time of poor cash flow, allows the company time to turn things around and get people paid. In football it is used a means of abdicating responsibility for debt and as a way out of gross negligence.

Just Jimmy
16-05-2010, 10:17 AM
I would beg to differ over administration crabit. The point of going into administration is to protect a company from it's creditors at a time of poor cash flow, allows the company time to turn things around and get people paid. In football it is used a means of abdicating responsibility for debt and as a way out of gross negligence.

exactly, in football it's cheating. In fact it's worse, it's piling cheating on top of cheating.

Sammy7nil
16-05-2010, 10:22 AM
throwr them out of europe just like portsmouth.

then relegate them to the 3rd division like gretna & livingston.

then see how "loyal" the fans are


:agree::agree::agree:

poolman
16-05-2010, 10:24 AM
If they have been making off-shore dodgy payments, something that I dont know **** all about tho, well I hope they get the book thrown at the gits :thumbsup:

Hibby D
16-05-2010, 10:26 AM
The "establishment" will never allow the Huns to go under.

Hibernian Verse
16-05-2010, 10:28 AM
Realistically speaking, throwing Rangers out of Europe would be detrimental to Scotland. Punish them domestically, not continentally as that's where we get our Euro places from.

hibbiedon
16-05-2010, 10:31 AM
Why dont' they amalgamate with Hearts and elect Cameron & Clegg as joint chairmen :faf:

magpie1892
16-05-2010, 10:31 AM
Realistically speaking, throwing Rangers out of Europe would be detrimental to Scotland. Punish them domestically, not continentally as that's where we get our Euro places from.

'Realistically speaking', the Scottish co-efficient doesn't benefit from a Champions League group set of results that reads:

P6 W0 D2 L4 F2 A11

The only 'favour' rangers do for Scotland in Europe is giving us game after game of high comedy.

Moody Mulder
16-05-2010, 10:43 AM
'Realistically speaking', the Scottish co-efficient doesn't benefit from a Champions League group set of results that reads:

P6 W0 D2 L4 F2 A11

The only 'favour' rangers do for Scotland in Europe is giving us game after game of high comedy.

correcto !!

Nameless
16-05-2010, 10:49 AM
If Rangers go into administration they would be kicked out of the the CL would they not, as it breaks one of the competition rules?

Hibernian Verse
16-05-2010, 11:11 AM
'Realistically speaking', the Scottish co-efficient doesn't benefit from a Champions League group set of results that reads:

P6 W0 D2 L4 F2 A11

The only 'favour' rangers do for Scotland in Europe is giving us game after game of high comedy.

But it still does effect our coefficient. I don't suppose you've noticed that the predictions of European places allocated to Scotland for 2011-12 are one Champions League spot (2nd qualifying round) and two Europa League spots, 2nd and 3rd Qualifying Round.

Having Rangers in the Champions League is the best chance we have of improving it. Realistically speaking without green tinted spectacles.

NORTHERNHIBBY
16-05-2010, 11:16 AM
Rangers' debt levels pale into insignificance when compared to Liverpool, Man U or even Barca or Real. As long as they are finding the money to keep trading and keep paying bills, the chance of official administration is unlikely. What is more likely though is self imposed cost-cutting measures and that will go as far as not paying over the odds for players. The financial stability of our club is largely boosted by the money we took out of them for Brown, Thomson etc. Those days are over I think. We may all benefit then, by getting our wish that, when we still accept that we won't stand in the way of players' bettering themselves, we are never too comfy when they flit along the M8 to do it.

new malkyhib
16-05-2010, 11:16 AM
Absolutely nae sympathy, in fact, absolute joy - all the "lesser" clubs in Scotland have to pay their taxes proportionate to their income. The income is the key to it, You have to have earned the money to pay tax on it so what have they done with the tax part? Most businesses set it aside.

what separates this financially and morally bankrupt shower, from reality is their arrogance in believing it would all go away (recognise a pattern here?) or that because of who they were the debts would never be allowed to come home to roost.

There probably are certain institutions who, for their own reasons would never want to upset the Huns, but it seems like Her Majestys Revenue and Customs ain't one of them, and its such a shame because they pledge their loyalty every week and sing some nice songs about her.

Come on You Maj - you know it makes sense - get our money in.

:top marksJust a pity it's not the ROYAL Bank of Scotland that they bank with - that would just complete the set.

magpie1892
16-05-2010, 11:33 AM
But it still does effect our coefficient. I don't suppose you've noticed that the predictions of European places allocated to Scotland for 2011-12 are one Champions League spot (2nd qualifying round) and two Europa League spots, 2nd and 3rd Qualifying Round.

Having Rangers in the Champions League is the best chance we have of improving it. Realistically speaking without green tinted spectacles.

Yes, it affects Scotland's coefficient. Are you arguing that rangers' performances in last season's CL improved the coefficient? I do hope not.

I had noticed Scotlands UEFA allocation. It's so meagre because of the overall failure of Scottish clubs to do something in Europe recently, culminating in the shocking performances last season - from all Scottish representatives.

So you're arguing that rangers need to be in Europe to help the Scottish coefficient. They did so by reaching the UEFA Cup Final in 2008, I grant you, but since then? Last season was excruciating (for them and for Scotland's coefficient - I laughed like a drain throughout most of the games). If you can offer anything to suggest that this coming season's rangers CL campaign is going to be any better than last year, I would love to hear it. If anything, it's going to be worse when their likely-to-be-even-further decimated squad lines up in August.

I say again, Scotland gets nul points for rangers efforts last season and I think Celtic would do a better job to be honest.

Your argument doesn't really make any sense - what am I missing?

Dr Jimmy
16-05-2010, 12:04 PM
they are in very deep doo do. HMRC will not take prisoners with this. a proper Tick Tock...!

cwilliamson85
16-05-2010, 12:09 PM
If they go into administration there should be a transfer ban placed on them for the next 5 years or until they get it sorted

sahib
16-05-2010, 12:13 PM
they are in very deep doo do. HMRC will not take prisoners with this. a proper Tick Tock...!

Hearts seem to have come to arrangements with HMRC on a couple of occasions and I would have thought they were much more likely to default. The taxman's job is to get revenue in for the government not to scupper any chances of the debt being repayed.

An Leargaidh
16-05-2010, 12:14 PM
The "establishment" will never allow the Huns to go under.

Correct, sad but true.

Just like the Forces Research Unit over the North Channel in the Six Counties, something like Rangers will have strings being worked from way way up the Establishment tree.

When I was a kid I used to wonder what people were on about when they spray painted "****** THE SYSTEM!" on walls. The System will be into full swing to make sure Rangers prevail no matter how bad they've been with their book keeping :no way:

An Leargaidh
16-05-2010, 12:16 PM
If they go into administration there should be a transfer ban placed on them for the next 5 years or until they get it sorted

If they go into administration then they should be shut down, the place demolished and turned into an overflow car park for the nearby Asda 24 hour supermarket :agree: :faf:

heidtheba
16-05-2010, 12:17 PM
Maybe Mad Vlad could buy them...

banarc7062
16-05-2010, 12:21 PM
throwr them out of europe just like portsmouth.

then relegate them to the 3rd division like gretna & livingston.

then see how "loyal" the fans are

This would get my vote. If it's good enough for Livingston, it should apply to them:agree:

Dr Jimmy
16-05-2010, 12:23 PM
Hearts seem to have come to arrangements with HMRC on a couple of occasions and I would have thought they were much more likely to default. The taxman's job is to get revenue in for the government not to scupper any chances of the debt being repayed.

Hearts never owed HMRC anywhere near these amounts and it is the nature of the alleged non payment that is the real issue. Lets see the outcome of the appeal.

ekhibee
16-05-2010, 12:27 PM
Hearts seem to have come to arrangements with HMRC on a couple of occasions and I would have thought they were much more likely to default. The taxman's job is to get revenue in for the government not to scupper any chances of the debt being repayed.
Yep, my thoughts too. It's one of the great mysteries of our time when you think about it, how Hearts still manage to avoid administration.

DC_Hibs
16-05-2010, 12:47 PM
With a turnover of 50 or 60 million there's little danger of them going down the tubes.
More likely they would need to sell players to reduce the debt and then dramatically cut their expenditure. Bougherra, Davis and McGregor might make them reasonable money but not sure about many others.

Hearts still look to be in a far worse state with debts of 35m and turnover of 9 or 10m and only a couple of players worth a bolt.

Fingers crossed anyway re the horrible huns as could be opportunities for others to challenge them if they are forced to sell and to play their youngsters.

basehibby
16-05-2010, 02:08 PM
would 10 spl points be deducted for next season?
Going by the recent example of Livingston shouldn't they just be relegated to Div 3???

basehibby
16-05-2010, 02:24 PM
Realistically speaking, throwing Rangers out of Europe would be detrimental to Scotland. Punish them domestically, not continentally as that's where we get our Euro places from.

Cobblers! What matters is that justice is done and the huns are treated no more favourably than any other football club.

So - if it emerges that they have in effect cheated their way into Europe then throw them out - and if the punishment domestically is relegation to Div 3 (Ala Livingston) then so it should be with Rangers.

Kicking cheats out of Europe is in no way detrimental to Scotland - what IS detrimental is putting out the signal that cheating works and gets your club trophies with the minimal threat of a puny slap on the wrist if you get caught.

Because - make no mistake - this is not merely the equivalent of someone taking a dive to affect the outcome of a single match - this is on a whole different scale - effectively defrauding their creditors and the whole of Scottish football over a period of YEARS - giving the huns an unfair advantage and destabilising the whole league by forcing other clubs to spend more than they in turn can afford if they want to try and keep up!

This sort of behaviour is really bordering on the criminal and it's clubs like Hibs who have run a tight ship and paid the price for it in terms of lack of real success on the park, that should be shouting from the rooftops for something to be done about it.

Hibernian Verse
16-05-2010, 02:31 PM
Cobblers! What matters is that justice is done and the huns are treated no more favourably than any other football club.

So - if it emerges that they have in effect cheated their way into Europe then throw them out - and if the punishment domestically is relegation to Div 3 (Ala Livingston) then so it should be with Rangers.

Kicking cheats out of Europe is in no way detrimental to Scotland - what IS detrimental is putting out the signal that cheating works and gets your club trophies with the minimal threat of a puny slap on the wrist if you get caught.

Because - make no mistake - this is not merely the equivalent of someone taking a dive to affect the outcome of a single match - this is on a whole different scale - effectively defrauding their creditors and the whole of Scottish football over a period of YEARS - giving the huns an unfair advantage and destabilising the whole league by forcing other clubs to spend more than they in turn can afford if they want to try and keep up!

This sort of behaviour is really bordering on the criminal and it's clubs like Hibs who have run a tight ship and paid the price for it in terms of lack of real success on the park, that should be shouting from the rooftops for something to be done about it.

We all know nothing will happen to them anyway, it's a null debate - regrettably.

scoopyboy
16-05-2010, 02:36 PM
But it still does effect our coefficient. I don't suppose you've noticed that the predictions of European places allocated to Scotland for 2011-12 are one Champions League spot (2nd qualifying round) and two Europa League spots, 2nd and 3rd Qualifying Round.

Having Rangers in the Champions League is the best chance we have of improving it. Realistically speaking without green tinted spectacles.

Not true Milky.

Associations ranked 10 to 51 get three teams in the Europa League.

We will probably only get one in the CL if we fall outside the top 15 nations and two if we finish 15th or above.

Ryan91
16-05-2010, 02:50 PM
I'd love to see the Huns punted down to 3rd Division, that would be a laugh, however I can't see the SFA punting them to the 3rd Division, more likely deduct points from them and tell them to 'never do it again' I pray that they fail in their appeal just to see whether or not the SFA can grow a spine for once in their life.

Hibernian Verse
16-05-2010, 02:57 PM
Not true Milky.

Associations ranked 10 to 51 get three teams in the Europa League.

We will probably only get one in the CL if we fall outside the top 15 nations and two if we finish 15th or above.

Just going by what I've read.

Hibernia Na Eir
16-05-2010, 03:01 PM
i feel so sorry for them


:faf:

Hibernia Na Eir
16-05-2010, 03:02 PM
I'd love to see the Huns punted down to 3rd Division, that would be a laugh, however I can't see the SFA punting them to the 3rd Division, more likely deduct points from them and tell them to 'never do it again' I pray that they fail in their appeal just to see whether or not the SFA can grow a spine for once in their life.


the lodges wouldnt allow it.

CMac1988
16-05-2010, 04:00 PM
With a turnover of 50 or 60 million...

I agree with what your saying but didn't Rangers only have a a turnover of £39.7m million last year?

steviecarnie
16-05-2010, 04:15 PM
Rangers' debt levels pale into insignificance when compared to Liverpool, Man U or even Barca or Real.

Assets wise these clubs are leagues ahead of rangers, Man United, Barcalona and Real Madrid all made money this season. Rangers dont make money and that is the issue, they will continue to go further into debt.

KeithTheHibby
16-05-2010, 04:36 PM
Our resident hun is incredibly quiet....

Bostonhibby
16-05-2010, 05:00 PM
the lodges wouldnt allow it.

Lodges, SFA, :confused: Same difference.

Kaiser1962
16-05-2010, 05:17 PM
Assets wise these clubs are leagues ahead of rangers, Man United, Barcalona and Real Madrid all made money this season. Rangers dont make money and that is the issue, they will continue to go further into debt.

With hindsight it might appear that Murray has been spending money EXPECTING to get into the English league. Sorry Dave.......

ronaldo7
16-05-2010, 05:33 PM
Stolen from the comments section of the NOTW.

A Loan, a loan,
We need some money soon.
A loan, a loan,
The Bailiff's coming roond,
We're up to our knees in unpaid cheques,
The interest's really high,
Cause we are the Bankrupt Billy boys.

:greengrin

forthhibby
16-05-2010, 05:37 PM
surely Her mayesty's 11 don't need to pay taxes :confused:

PatHead
16-05-2010, 06:03 PM
[QUOTE=crabit;2470572]I hadn't realised it was so bad - administration does look likely from that.

It isn't abuse though, even if they get away with a points deduction (or whatever the slap in the wrist is in Scotland these days), that's just what administration is.

There could well be a couple of consortiums in line to buy the club from the receiver so you'd reckon the taxman and the bank wont be too hard hit - different story for ordinary creditors though

Under bankruptcy legislation brought in a couple of years ago HMRC is no longer a preferred creditor and has the same status as all other unsecured creditors. The Bank are likely to be only secured creditor, unpaid salaries then come next and I understand all players are pretty much paid so that wouldn't be an issue. I seem to think that all football debts have to be settled first though unfer FIFA rules so I would hope any add on clauses would be safe if any add ons are due for KT.

As far as a points deduction goes I don't remember Dundee or Livingston getting relegated first time round. Have the rules changed.

Lofarl
16-05-2010, 06:29 PM
Stolen from the comments section of the NOTW.

A Loan, a loan,
We need some money soon.
A loan, a loan,
The Bailiff's coming roond,
We're up to our knees in unpaid cheques,
The interest's really high,
Cause we are the Bankrupt Billy boys.

:greengrin


Thats getting sung in the singing section I'll guarantee

NAE NOOKIE
16-05-2010, 07:23 PM
So when they sing "bouncy "bouncy" they are singing about the clubs cheques.

:greengrin

chorley_fm
16-05-2010, 07:25 PM
The "establishment" will never allow the Huns to go under.

this ^^

Sylar
16-05-2010, 08:05 PM
Going by the recent example of Livingston shouldn't they just be relegated to Div 3???

Surely it's not as simple as that? Livingston were in a league governed by the SFL, who control all 3 leagues and have the power to penalise as they see fit.

Surely the SPL don't have the authority to intervene on punishment which would be of detriment to some of the SFL association clubs?

Carheenlea
16-05-2010, 08:13 PM
Our resident hun is incredibly quiet....

What one? "Blue is the Colour" or "Corrie Greens"...?