If the Tories win, be very afraid.

[Hibbyradge]

The next few years are going to be difficult for everyone.

Big cuts in public spending, changes in pensions and tax rises are on their way, regardless of who gets in.

But if the Tories hold the reins, it will be horrifically painful as they will be utterly ruthless. Much more so than Labour or the Lib dEms would be.

Unemployment will soar, services will be lost, privatisation will be systematic and industrial unrest will be at a scale we've not seen since the 70's. There may also be civil unrest.

All this while they help those who are already filthy rich.

I'm genuinely fearful of an overall Tory majority. My best hope now is for a hung parliament and the inevitable change to the voting system that will come with it.

At least the Lib Dems would save the country a few £billion by scrapping Trident although I am well aware of what that would do to our international status.

[Tazio]

If they get in my job would certainly be at risk. I work in a publicly funded area that they have already stated will have it's money cut.

[GlesgaeHibby]

The next few years are going to be difficult for everyone.

Big cuts in public spending, changes in pensions and tax rises are on their way, regardless of who gets in.

But if the Tories hold the reins, it will be horrifically painful as they will be utterly ruthless. Much more so than Labour or the Lib dEms would be.

Unemployment will soar, services will be lost, privatisation will be systematic and industrial unrest will be at a scale we've not seen since the 70's. There may also be civil unrest.

All this while they help those who are already filthy rich.

I'm genuinely fearful of an overall Tory majority. My best hope now is for a hung parliament and the inevitable change to the voting system that will come with it.

At least the Lib Dems would save the country a few £billion by scrapping Trident although I am well aware of what that would do to our international status.

:agree: They claim to have changed but they are still the same old Tory party. One of their candidates in Scotland claimed the destruction of communities and miners losing their jobs was "unfortunate". :bitchy:

I was too young to remember the horrors of the last tory administration but my parents have told me enough about it to realise it was horrific. Interest rates at 15%, worrying about keeping your house, mass unemployment etc etc

[Leicester Fan]

Lets get 1 thing clear we've had 13 years of Labour govt p15sing money up the wall. None of this debt crisis is the the Tories fault.

We've had enough of Labours immature throwing money at every problem, even when there wasn't much of a problem to start with. It's time for the grown ups to put things right.

[Beefster]

Scaremongering pish with not one fact to back it up.

[ArabHibee]

Scaremongering pish with not one fact to back it up.

Who? Hibbyrage or Leicester Fan?:confused:

[Hiber-nation]

I hate them as much as I hate hearts.

[hibsdaft]

Scaremongering pish with not one fact to back it up.

scaremongering vote labour pish i agree, but probably true. probably more or less true regardless of who wins the election tbh.

and the thing with the Tories, is we know from past experience that they don't care. about Scotland, or about the effects of cuts and unemployment on ordinary working people. it would require a pretty daft leap of faith to ignore recent history and believe that they've changed on that front.

[One Day Soon]

Lets get 1 thing clear we've had 13 years of Labour govt p15sing money up the wall. None of this debt crisis is the the Tories fault.

We've had enough of Labours immature throwing money at every problem, even when there wasn't much of a problem to start with. It's time for the grown ups to put things right.

Leicester, do you really think that George Osborne's recipe of letting one of the banks fail during the banking crisis entitles him and his colleagues to a description like "It's time for the grown ups to put things right".

Personally I think if you are the heir to a baronet­cy dating back to 1629, and own a £15 million stake in your family's upmarket wallpaper and fabrics firm - Osborne & Little - you might be just a wee bit insulated from any of the harsh direct consequences of your own Thatcherite economic proposals.

And what exactly is grown up about pausing amid all the proposed budget cuts to use the first millions of cuts made to hand inheritance tax give aways to the richest people in the country? Other than the fact that many of them will be his mates of course.

[Beefster]

Who? Hibbyrage or Leicester Fan?:confused:

Hibbyradge.

[Beefster]

Leicester, do you really think that George Osborne's recipe of letting one of the banks fail during the banking crisis entitles him and his colleagues to a description like "It's time for the grown ups to put things right".

Personally I think if you are the heir to a baronet*cy dating back to 1629, and own a £15 million stake in your family's upmarket wallpaper and fabrics firm - Osborne & Little - you might be just a wee bit insulated from any of the harsh direct consequences of your own Thatcherite economic proposals.

And what exactly is grown up about pausing amid all the proposed budget cuts to use the first millions of cuts made to hand inheritance tax give aways to the richest people in the country? Other than the fact that many of them will be his mates of course.

This is desperate stuff.

Is there any MP that won't be insulated from their party's economic proposals?

If I was equally desperate, I could argue that a PM or Chancellor having his own private wealth would make him insulated from making decisions based on what he can get out of it post-politics or less likely to sell his soul to the highest bidder.

[Leicester Fan]

Leicester, do you really think that George Osborne's recipe of letting one of the banks fail during the banking crisis entitles him and his colleagues to a description like "It's time for the grown ups to put things right".

Personally I think if you are the heir to a baronet*cy dating back to 1629, and own a £15 million stake in your family's upmarket wallpaper and fabrics firm - Osborne & Little - you might be just a wee bit insulated from any of the harsh direct consequences of your own Thatcherite economic proposals.

And what exactly is grown up about pausing amid all the proposed budget cuts to use the first millions of cuts made to hand inheritance tax give aways to the richest people in the country? Other than the fact that many of them will be his mates of course.

Being a top quality Painter, decorator and paper hanger I've hung quite a bit of Osbourne and Little wallpaper and very nice it is too. If it's any consolation to you wallpaper is out of fashion at the minute so profits are probably down at Osbourne HQ.

[Hibbyradge]

Scaremongering pish with not one fact to back it up.

Not one fact?


The next few years are going to be difficult for everyone.



Fact




Big cuts in public spending, changes in pensions and tax rises are on their way, regardless of who gets in.



Fact



But if the Tories hold the reins, it will be horrifically painful as they will be utterly ruthless. Much more so than Labour or the Lib dEms would be.



Fact. Unlike Labour and the Lib Dems, the Tories have already admitted that they have plans to make immediate and substantial cuts. £6 billion in the first year, I think.



Unemployment will soar, services will be lost, privatisation will be systematic and industrial unrest will be at a scale we've not seen since the 70's. There may also be civil unrest.



Maybe not a fact as such, but a bit like saying that if you cut yourself, you'll bleed. Highly likely and my prediction is based on what Thatcher and the Tories did to the country when they were last in power.




All this while they help those who are already filthy rich.



Fact. The Tories have plans to help the richest in society by increasing the inheritance threshold to £1m. Who is that going to help if not the rich?


I'm genuinely fearful of an overall Tory majority. My best hope now is for a hung parliament and the inevitable change to the voting system that will come with it.



Fact. I am genuinely fearful and I am hoping for a hung parliament and a change in the voting system.




At least the Lib Dems would save the country a few £billion by scrapping Trident although I am well aware of what that would do to our international status.

Fact.

[Hibbyradge]

scaremongering vote labour pish i agree, but probably true. probably more or less true regardless of who wins the election tbh.

and the thing with the Tories, is we know from past experience that they don't care. about Scotland, or about the effects of cuts and unemployment on ordinary working people. it would require a pretty daft leap of faith to ignore recent history and believe that they've changed on that front.

Eh?

You've basically agreed with my entire post yet you dismiss it as scaremongering pish. How does that work? :confused:

I've already cast my postal vote, by the way.

I voted Lib Dem

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think anyone who is funded by public money (ie 1 in 5) is going to feel the pinch one way or another. There's some hollow sounding promises about protecting the NHS, for example, no promises about funding to the many voluntary organisations that pick up the slack for the NHS though.

This means that those organisations will probably fold, leaving NHS staff more pressured.

[Hainan Hibs]

No matter who gets in it will be cut after cut after Labour sent the country up **** creek without a paddle.

Once again the Tories will come in and make drastic changes after a labour government ****ed us up and made to look like the bad guys once again.

I actually hope Labour win so they can sort their own mess out.

[Hibbyradge]

No matter who gets in it will be cut after cut after Labour sent the country up **** creek without a paddle.


That's silly. Scaremongering pish, in fact!

Was it Labour who caused the financial crisis in Greece, Germany, Iceland, the USA and the rest of the world?




Once again the Tories will come in and make drastic changes


Yep. :agree:

'Swhat I said.




I actually hope Labour win so they can sort their own mess out.

I'm sure they'll be grateful for your vote.

[Phil D. Rolls]

No matter who gets in it will be cut after cut after Labour sent the country up **** creek without a paddle.

Once again the Tories will come in and make drastic changes after a labour government ****ed us up and made to look like the bad guys once again.

I actually hope Labour win so they can sort their own mess out.

Labour didn't run the banks when they were committing their criminal acts. Somehow their's a logic that the rich screw up, and the poor have to pay. It's completely crazy that such a small amount of people hold such a large amount of the wealth in this country.

You go to Europe, where the class system is less rigid than the UK and you see a fairer distribution of wealth. The UK electorate are so cow towed they are like turkeys voting for christmas.

Seems to me that all the parties main priority is this misguided idea that the rich will create wealth for everyone. The rich take as much of the nations wealth as they can.

For most of my life Britain was paying for WW2, (60 years it took us to pay it off), we had a small window of credit fuelled "prosperity" and now we are, once again committed to a debt repayment plan that will take decades to sort out.

Meanwhile we have p*ssed the North Sea oil money against the wall so that the rich can buy villas in Tuscany and holidays in Dubai.

[Beefster]

Not one fact?



Fact



Fact



Fact. Unlike Labour and the Lib Dems, the Tories have already admitted that they have plans to make immediate and substantial cuts. £6 billion in the first year, I think.



Maybe not a fact as such, but a bit like saying that if you cut yourself, you'll bleed. Highly likely and my prediction is based on what Thatcher and the Tories did to the country when they were last in power.



Fact. The Tories have plans to help the richest in society by increasing the inheritance threshold to £1m. Who is that going to help if not the rich?



Fact. I am genuinely fearful and I am hoping for a hung parliament and a change in the voting system.



Fact.

The £6bn will be kept in households and business instead of being wasted (waste acknowledged by the government). What's 'horrifically painful' about that? I'd suggest that more folk will be helped by that than will be harmed by it. It comes back to this thing that Labour think that government spending constitutes the entire economy.

Cuts are going to be made, irrespective of what party wins. As I said earlier, making a prediction based on something that happened 25 years ago is like saying "don't vote for Labour, they made a mistake in the 1970's" or "don't vote for the Liberals, they make a mistake in 1912".

As for the Lib Dems scrapping Trident, I'm not sure how you know it'll save any money when they're keeping a nuclear deterrent but haven't decided what it will be yet.

[Hibbyradge]

The Tories were in power only 13 years ago but I'm not surprised you want to forget about that terrible government. Also, Margaret Thatcher and her cronies are still hugely influential in the Tory party and in Tory circles. To suggest that what those butchers did to millions of people in this country was merely a mistake is beyond belief. What they did should not be forgotten or forgiven. They are capable of doing it again. I now support electoral reform precisely because I never want to see the UK suffer from that type of extreme dogma again.

[IndieHibby]

If we don't cut the national debt, not only will there be higher taxes for decades to come but instead of higher taxes to pay off debt, we (sorry, our children and grandchildren) will pay higher taxes just to keep up with the interest payments...

Would you rather see your money spent on interest payments or balance payments?

Current debt is somewhere in the order of 750 Billion GBP. In 4-5 years time, it is projected to be 1.4 Trillion GBP.

Mervyn King admitted recently that whichever party get's into power will be unlikely to hold it again for a generation, due to the scale of the cuts necessary.

So please, stop this snivelling crap about how we can avoid cuts like the 80's and 'big bad Maggie Thatcher'.


The cuts are going to be worse than that, and the finger of blame points squarely at Gordon Brown:

Allowed a housing bubble to get dangerously out of control (despite his infamous "boom and bust" speech c. 97)
Sold our gold reserves at an historically low price
destroyed a world-class private pensions system, in order to raise taxes, during a time when the economy was in the rudest of health
Allowed banks to create horrifically complicated and ruinous financial products to be sold without the intervention of the FSA (who were probably spending their days looking at porn)
Allowed an explosion of welfarism and allowed the public sector to recruit expensive employees to do, well, not very much at all.
Wasted billions on projects of dubious value (NHS computers, National Strategies, Millenium Dome, ID cards etc)
Warped the culture of public services into form-filling, box ticking, short term target chasing sheep
Failed to invest in nuclear technology (now run by France), in order to steal votes from the Greens/Liberals.
That's not to say that New Labour have not had acheivements. Far from it. But their catalogue of failure speaks for itself.

Gordon Brown is incapable of leading this country. He is proving it as we speak.

Clegg? Nice guy but way to inexperienced and clearly leads a party weak on policy and direction. Maybe next time, but not now.

Cameron? God knows, but he is the only one who seems to have the direction to cut back the state where it needs to be cut back.

Fail on this one area alone and UK plc can kiss it's ass goodbye.

[One Day Soon]

This is desperate stuff.

Is there any MP that won't be insulated from their party's economic proposals?

If I was equally desperate, I could argue that a PM or Chancellor having his own private wealth would make him insulated from making decisions based on what he can get out of it post-politics or less likely to sell his soul to the highest bidder.

You didn't address the two most important bits of my post.

1. Do you really think that George Osborne's recipe of letting one of the banks fail during the banking crisis entitles him and his colleagues to a description like "It's time for the grown ups to put things right".

and

2. And what exactly is grown up about pausing amid all the proposed budget cuts to use the first millions of cuts made to hand inheritance tax give aways to the richest people in the country? Other than the fact that many of them will be his mates of course.

[IndieHibby]

You didn't address the two most important bits of my post.

1. Do you really think that George Osborne's recipe of letting one of the banks fail during the banking crisis entitles him and his colleagues to a description like "It's time for the grown ups to put things right".

and

2. And what exactly is grown up about pausing amid all the proposed budget cuts to use the first millions of cuts made to hand inheritance tax give aways to the richest people in the country? Other than the fact that many of them will be his mates of course.

If I may, :wink::
1. Osbourne is a tool. Clarke should and hopefully will be chancellor, but he's too Europhile for the hard core cons
2. I bet labour have had to appease their core vote on more than one occassion...

[One Day Soon]

If we don't cut the national debt, not only will there be higher taxes for decades to come but instead of higher taxes to pay off debt, we (sorry, our children and grandchildren) will pay higher taxes just to keep up with the interest payments...

Would you rather see your money spent on interest payments or balance payments?

Current debt is somewhere in the order of 750 Billion GBP. In 4-5 years time, it is projected to be 1.4 Trillion GBP.

Mervyn King admitted recently that whichever party get's into power will be unlikely to hold it again for a generation, due to the scale of the cuts necessary.

So please, stop this snivelling crap about how we can avoid cuts like the 80's and 'big bad Maggie Thatcher'.





The cuts are going to be worse than that, and the finger of blame points squarely at Gordon Brown:

Allowed a housing bubble to get dangerously out of control (despite his infamous "boom and bust" speech c. 97)
Sold our gold reserves at an historically low price
destroyed a world-class private pensions system, in order to raise taxes, during a time when the economy was in the rudest of health
Allowed banks to create horrifically complicated and ruinous financial products to be sold without the intervention of the FSA (who were probably spending their days looking at porn)
Allowed an explosion of welfarism and allowed the public sector to recruit expensive employees to do, well, not very much at all.
Wasted billions on projects of dubious value (NHS computers, National Strategies, Millenium Dome, ID cards etc)
Warped the culture of public services into form-filling, box ticking, short term target chasing sheep
Failed to invest in nuclear technology (now run by France), in order to steal votes from the Greens/Liberals.
That's not to say that New Labour have not had acheivements. Far from it. But their catalogue of failure speaks for itself.

Gordon Brown is incapable of leading this country. He is proving it as we speak.

Clegg? Nice guy but way to inexperienced and clearly leads a party weak on policy and direction. Maybe next time, but not now.

Cameron? God knows, but he is the only one who seems to have the direction to cut back the state where it needs to be cut back.

Fail on this one area alone and UK plc can kiss it's ass goodbye.

Nobody - apart from the SNP I think - is arguing that there should not be cuts. The question is what, how and when.

Most of your points above are I believe either wrong or disputable. But the key question is how you both reduce spending and raise taxes in order to move to a balanced budget over time. An absolutely critical element here is fostering recovery and growth because without that unemployment rises, consequent welfare costs increase, tax revenues decrease and viola we're back to Mrs Thatcher and the early 1980s. It worked eventually but primarily on the backs of large numbers of people and communities ripped apart by an economic policy which basically said never mind the consequences, just cut hard and fast. If we fall into that Tory trap again we are going to both make cuts and very likely re-enter recession when we don't need to.

---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------


If I may, :wink::
1. Osbourne is a tool. Clarke should and hopefully will be chancellor, but he's too Europhile for the hard core cons
2. I bet labour have had to appease their core vote on more than one occassion...

That is one of the most honest posts I have read in the course of the election debates on here.

Its a pretty small core vote to be appeasing for the money. They must be really critical votes in core marginals......

[IndieHibby]

Its a pretty small core vote to be appeasing for the money. They must be really critical votes in core marginals......

I meant within his own party. Not so long ago he was on a shoogly peg.

As for the main points I made, I'd quite like to see you rebut them.

Purely for the sake of the debate, you understand...:greengrin

[khib70]

Scaremongering pish with not one fact to back it up.
:agree: Par for the course. The Red Titanic is going down due to Captain Brown heading straight for every iceberg in the ocean, so it's time for ludicrous scare stories. Facts, who needs them?

[Hibbyradge]

:agree: Par for the course. The Red Titanic is going down due to Captain Brown heading straight for every iceberg in the ocean, so it's time for ludicrous scare stories. Facts, who needs them?

See post 13.

Inconveniently, they're all facts.

[hibsdaft]

Eh?

You've basically agreed with my entire post yet you dismiss it as scaremongering pish. How does that work? :confused:

I've already cast my postal vote, by the way.

I voted Lib Dem

my apologies then. you do realise though, that you've given your vote to the party who will now prop the Tories up as they set about doing all the things you warned about ?

[Hibbyradge]

my apologies then. you do realise though, that you've given your vote to the party who will now prop the Tories up as they set about doing all the things you warned about ?

Even if the Tories are the largest party, and that's not certain, it's not certain that the Libs will do a deal with them.

They are more left wing than Labour in many respects and that might well be a step too far for them.

However, even if they do form a government with them, they will temper the Tories' plans.

They will also demand, and get, an end to the FPP electoral system which in my view, will benefit the UK in the long term as consensus and collaboration will be needed to run the country instead of dogma.

[rightwinger]

It's always worth noting that the same good old working class people that go on and on and on about how bad the Tories of the 1980's were never:

*Hand the tax cuts back
*Hand the title deeds to their right to buy homes back
*Waive the right to send their children to whatever schools they want
*Remember how great it was in the late-70's when no public industry could do anything productive for going on strike every two months
*Realise how good it is now with the country financially at it's knees
*Realise that the Labour party has actually changed none of the reforms that Thatcher brought in

I don't mind people not liking the Tory party - they've done plenty of things not to like them for. But the Labour party are just as bad - why do people up here not realise this!? If the old Labour party hadn't brought the country to it's knees in the 70's then the Tories never would have got in and stayed in with huge majorities (and a fair number of seats all over Scotland) for a number of years. If the new Labour party hadn't brought the country to it's knees in recent years then we wouldn't be under threat of another Tory government now.

When Major's lot got kicked out in 97 it was because the country hated the party and the individuals within it. The country was stale but the economy, employment, crime figures, foreign affairs etc were far from a disgrace. Hence why Blair had to attack them so vigorously on grounds of sleaze and division rather than incompetence. Unlike most new governments, Blair/Brown inherited a country in reasonable shape with the double bonus of their political opposition being in complete disarray and unlikely offer any threat for a decade.

History will show that New Labour inherited a wonderful opportunity to take this country forward - an opportunity which, like it or not and perhaps in spite of themselves, was made by the Tories. They wasted the chance and have taken the country to it's knees. It's time people up here realise this. I'm not saying the Tories should be embraced - I don't like them either - but the Labour party are just as bad if not worse.

No matter how incompetent or corrupt the Labour party is there will always be a huge number of Scots who hold all of Scotland's ills against one party and keep loyally voting Labour.

But I'll tolerate folk on this board having that mentality. Us Hibs fans can't see past useless losers can we?

[Beefster]

Even if the Tories are the largest party, and that's not certain, it's not certain that the Libs will do a deal with them.

They are more left wing than Labour in many respects and that might well be a step too far for them.

However, even if they do form a government with them, they will temper the Tories' plans.

They will also demand, and get, an end to the FPP electoral system which in my view, will benefit the UK in the long term as consensus and collaboration will be needed to run the country instead of dogma.

All in my opinion of course but, if the polls are right as they are now

- The Tories are unlikely to want to form a formal coalition with the Lib Dems.

- After playing the 'new politics' card, the Lib Dems are unlikely prop up Labour and destroy their new-found popularity as a result.

- The Tories will form a minority administration and deal with the parties, Labour excepted, on a legislation by legislation basis. Labour will pretty much oppose anything the Tories propose.

- Any vote of no confidence proposed by Labour MPs will fail until the financial crisis is over and a major dent has been made in the deficit.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Plenty claims of unsubstantiated facts in this thread, so I'll highlight some indisputable facts:

FACT The Tories opposed the minimum wage. Cameron described it as a "burden on business" and it would "send unemployment straight back up". When he says he cares about families and people on low incomes, remember this.

FACT Under the last Tory administration interest rates soared to 15% and people genuinely feared having their homes repossessed.

FACT The Tories WILL give the richest 3000 people in the country a massive £2 billion inheritance tax break

FACT Unemployment soared to record levels under the last Tory administration

FACT The Tories have made no guarantees that they won't raise VAT

FACT Thatcher decimated communities by bringing British industry to its knees. How many British miners were left out in the cold with families to look after and feed under that evil tyrant?

FACT They tried to introduce the ridiculously unfair Poll Tax, and decided that Scotland would be the guinea pigs.

FACT Will do everything they can to block electoral reform that would give us a fairer voting system.


The Tories are, and always will be the party of the rich. They don't give a ***** about the working class, and they never have.

[Billy]

Easy solution - vote SNP and Independance when you get a chance.

Once done, tell England that as she spent the money, all the debt is hers.

Debt free Scotland :thumbsup:


:fishin: :greengrin

[MountcastleHibs]

It's always worth noting that the same good old working class people that go on and on and on about how bad the Tories of the 1980's were never:

*Hand the tax cuts back
*Hand the title deeds to their right to buy homes back
*Waive the right to send their children to whatever schools they want
*Remember how great it was in the late-70's when no public industry could do anything productive for going on strike every two months
*Realise how good it is now with the country financially at it's knees
*Realise that the Labour party has actually changed none of the reforms that Thatcher brought in

I don't mind people not liking the Tory party - they've done plenty of things not to like them for. But the Labour party are just as bad - why do people up here not realise this!? If the old Labour party hadn't brought the country to it's knees in the 70's then the Tories never would have got in and stayed in with huge majorities (and a fair number of seats all over Scotland) for a number of years. If the new Labour party hadn't brought the country to it's knees in recent years then we wouldn't be under threat of another Tory government now.

When Major's lot got kicked out in 97 it was because the country hated the party and the individuals within it. The country was stale but the economy, employment, crime figures, foreign affairs etc were far from a disgrace. Hence why Blair had to attack them so vigorously on grounds of sleaze and division rather than incompetence. Unlike most new governments, Blair/Brown inherited a country in reasonable shape with the double bonus of their political opposition being in complete disarray and unlikely offer any threat for a decade.

History will show that New Labour inherited a wonderful opportunity to take this country forward - an opportunity which, like it or not and perhaps in spite of themselves, was made by the Tories. They wasted the chance and have taken the country to it's knees. It's time people up here realise this. I'm not saying the Tories should be embraced - I don't like them either - but the Labour party are just as bad if not worse.

No matter how incompetent or corrupt the Labour party is there will always be a huge number of Scots who hold all of Scotland's ills against one party and keep loyally voting Labour.

But I'll tolerate folk on this board having that mentality. Us Hibs fans can't see past useless losers can we?

I agree totally with everything you say in your post. This country annoys me sometimes with its narrow-mindedness and delusional support for Labour. What have Labour done to deserve such loyalty? Or is it simply a case of voting for them to keep another party out?

Let's be honest, Labour have pretty much done what the Tories done - shat on Scotland for the last 13 years, with the exception of granting us our own Parliament. You want to scaremonger people into voting Labour, well let me tell the Labour voters here this. Alistair Darling has already said that the cuts that will come at the start of next year will be more severe and harder than the cuts under Thatcher. Why? Because their economic policy is the typical Labour policy of just throwing money at a problem, thus making the deficit bigger and needing bigger cuts.

This Labour goverment are tired, weak and arrogant and need kicked out. I'm no Tory, but i'm bloody sick of Labour. As Nick Clegg said, 'you have not betrayed Labour, Labour have betrayed you'.

[Hibbyradge]

Let's be honest, Labour have pretty much done what the Tories done - shat on Scotland for the last 13 years, with the exception of granting us our own Parliament.

All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?

[Leicester Fan]

FACT Unemployment soared to record levels under the last Tory administration

FACT Unemployment is higher now than when Labour came into office and it's still rising.


FACT The Tories have made no guarantees that they won't raise VAT

FACT Neither have Labour.


FACT Thatcher decimated communities by bringing British industry to its knees. How many British miners were left out in the cold with families to look after and feed under that evil tyrant?

FACT Manufacturing industry in this country has shrunk faster under Labour than under Mrs Thatcher.

[MountcastleHibs]

All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?

Aye, ok smartarse. We're talking about the failed promises of this shambolic Labour government over the last 13 years. Failed on HoL reform, we've got more knife crime, bigger drug problems, more people scrounging off the state rather than trying to find a job... Need I go on?

[Mibbes Aye]

I agree totally with everything you say in your post. This country annoys me sometimes with its narrow-mindedness and delusional support for Labour. What have Labour done to deserve such loyalty? Or is it simply a case of voting for them to keep another party out?

Let's be honest, Labour have pretty much done what the Tories done - shat on Scotland for the last 13 years, with the exception of granting us our own Parliament. You want to scaremonger people into voting Labour, well let me tell the Labour voters here this. Alistair Darling has already said that the cuts that will come at the start of next year will be more severe and harder than the cuts under Thatcher. Why? Because their economic policy is the typical Labour policy of just throwing money at a problem, thus making the deficit bigger and needing bigger cuts.

This Labour goverment are tired, weak and arrogant and need kicked out. I'm no Tory, but i'm bloody sick of Labour. As Nick Clegg said, 'you have not betrayed Labour, Labour have betrayed you'.

My children were born in a decent, new hospital that replaced a rundown, dirty one that should have been closed in the eighties.

Their schools are new and replaced dishevelled ones that stopped being fit for purpose around twenty years ago, but remained open a lot, lot longer.

Hospitals and schools. Children's education and all our health and wellbeing.

It's basic stuff.

Years and years of chronic Tory underinvestment in the lives of ordinary people turned around.

If that's betrayal I can live with it.

[BigKev]

All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?

I presume the SNP have played no part in this?

[Hibbyradge]

Aye, ok smartarse.

Why the name calling? :bitchy:

My analogy was supposed to be humourous, but it was totally appropriate.


We're talking about the failed promises of this shambolic Labour government over the last 13 years. Failed on HoL reform, we've got more knife crime, bigger drug problems, more people scrounging off the state rather than trying to find a job... Need I go on?

You don't read the Express or the Daily Mail, by any chance do you.

That's just the same old right wing rhetoric straight from their pages. I'm surprised you didn't mention immigration.

If you think that crime, drug problems and peoples' dependancy on the state will reduce under a conservative government, then you know little about the political history of this country and that party.

[The_Todd]

I'm no fan of the New Labour project, but for all it's failings you do have to give some credit for some of the good things it's done.

Ok, the gap between rich and poor has grown. This is not good, and quite strange for a Labour government - but still there is less poverty.

The Government could have done more to prevent the banking crisis - but what would the Tories have done? Less regulation? Let them get away with even more foul play? Let them go under (the Tory plan)?

To call it an entirely unproductive 13 years and writing off everything they've done is shambolic and a failure would be more than a tad harsh.

Does anybody else remember the overwhelming desire to punish the Tories after 18 years of "I'm alright, Jack" policies? The sheer joy of large parts of the nation as Labour won a landslide majority? Despite the fact the Tories are ahead in the polls, it's nothing like the momentum that swept Blair into power.

I firmly believe that a Lib-Lab coalition which brings together the best parts of each parties policies will bring about a fair and progressive tax system, and way of governing. Despite "Dave's" claims to have met the entire nation who agree with all his policies, the Tories are as out of touch with the man on the street as they ever were, because they do not represent man on the street. They represent man in the boardroom, man in tax exile, man in the mansion.

[Hibbyradge]

I presume the SNP have played no part in this?

It was a quote from the Life of Brian.

I didn't realise the SNP featured? Who played Alex Salmond? :wink:

[rightwinger]

The next few years are going to be difficult for everyone.

Big cuts in public spending, changes in pensions and tax rises are on their way, regardless of who gets in.

But if the Tories hold the reins, it will be horrifically painful as they will be utterly ruthless. Much more so than Labour or the Lib dEms would be.

Unemployment will soar, services will be lost, privatisation will be systematic and industrial unrest will be at a scale we've not seen since the 70's. There may also be civil unrest.

All this while they help those who are already filthy rich.

I'm genuinely fearful of an overall Tory majority. My best hope now is for a hung parliament and the inevitable change to the voting system that will come with it.

At least the Lib Dems would save the country a few £billion by scrapping Trident although I am well aware of what that would do to our international status.

So that will happen if the Tories get in?

Aren't those sort of things already well underway under the Labour party?

What I take offence at is the way that people like you see all the flaws of one party and none of the other. Labour have done as much to harm this country as the Tories have. The difference is that the Tories stab you in the front while Labour smile in your face and stab you in the back. The bigotgate incident kind of sums that up - Thatcher would have told the woman to her face!

There's two camps: a) the 'they're all as bad as each other' camp which I support and b) the 'be afraid of the Tories cos they're so much worse than the others' camp which you support.

[One Day Soon]

So that will happen if the Tories get in?

Aren't those sort of things already well underway under the Labour party?

What I take offence at is the way that people like you see all the flaws of one party and none of the other. Labour have done as much to harm this country as the Tories have. The difference is that the Tories stab you in the front while Labour smile in your face and stab you in the back. The bigotgate incident kind of sums that up - Thatcher would have told the woman to her face!

There's two camps: a) the 'they're all as bad as each other' camp which I support and b) the 'be afraid of the Tories cos they're so much worse than the others' camp which you support.

You mean like John Major being caught on tape after his interview ended when he referred to half his Cabinet as the 'ba5tard5'? Get a grip.

[GlesgaeHibby]

FACT Unemployment is higher now than when Labour came into office and it's still rising.

FACT Neither have Labour.

FACT Manufacturing industry in this country has shrunk faster under Labour than under Mrs Thatcher.

Unemployment has still not reached the heights it did under the last conservative government.

I agree that both the labour and the tories have both contributed to the downfall of industry in this country.

[MountcastleHibs]

Why the name calling? :bitchy:

My analogy was supposed to be humourous, but it was totally appropriate.



You don't read the Express or the Daily Mail, by any chance do you.

That's just the same old right wing rhetoric straight from their pages. I'm surprised you didn't mention immigration.

If you think that crime, drug problems and peoples' dependancy on the state will reduce under a conservative government, then you know little about the political history of this country and that party.

Ok the name calling was out of order. For that I hold my hand up and apologise. No point in being sarcastic just because I have a different view to you though.

I don't read the Record, the Mail or the Express. If, you must know I read the Guardian, a paper that is backing the Lib Dems.

My views may sound very conservative, but I assure you I am not a Tory vote, nor do I ever intend to be one. At the minute the only thing I am sure of is I will not be voting Labour, Tory, BNP, UKIP or Green. It will be SNP or Lib Dem for me.
I just see the state the government is in right now and feel that we do need a change. The current government have been in too long, have become tired and arrogant, and out of touch with the people.

I don't want another 4 years of Labour, and if that means 4 years of Tories then fine. Maybe it will serve as a kick up the arse to the Labour party and be able to regain the support of people like me who have become disillusioned with them.

And as a Politics and History student, I would bloody hope I know quite a bit about the political history of this country and the Tory party ha!

[Hibbyradge]

What I take offence at is the way that people like you

Ah. People like me. That old chestnut. Your slip is showing.

I said that cuts will take place no matter who wins the election.

I said that I believe that the Tories will be utterly ruthless in achieving them, more so than the Lib Dems or Labour.

I've experienced what the zealots in the Tory party can do to ordinary, hard working people. Being honest while they did so, like Tebbit with his callous "on your bike" type comments, didn't make it any less painful.

And that frightens me because I haven't seen or heard anything which makes me believe they are any less callous 13 years down the road.

[PeeJay]

Unemployment has still not reached the heights it did under the last conservative government.

I agree that both the labour and the tories have both contributed to the downfall of industry in this country.

Seems a lot of flak is being thrown at politicians, but what about employers, company owners, 'capitalists', bankers, hedge-fund managers, investors - the guys with the real power, none of whom are elected??

[Hibbyradge]

Ok the name calling was out of order. For that I hold my hand up and apologise. No point in being sarcastic just because I have a different view to you though.

I don't read the Record, the Mail or the Express. If, you must know I read the Guardian, a paper that is backing the Lib Dems.

My views may sound very conservative, but I assure you I am not a Tory vote, nor do I ever intend to be one. At the minute the only thing I am sure of is I will not be voting Labour, Tory, BNP, UKIP or Green. It will be SNP or Lib Dem for me.
I just see the state the government is in right now and feel that we do need a change. The current government have been in too long, have become tired and arrogant, and out of touch with the people.

I don't want another 4 years of Labour, and if that means 4 years of Tories then fine. Maybe it will serve as a kick up the arse to the Labour party and be able to regain the support of people like me who have become disillusioned with them.



So why have a go at me?

As I pointed out in an earlier post, I've already cast my vote for the Lib Dems and I hope for a hung parliament because I don't want a return to the FPP electoral system.




And as a Politics and History student, I would bloody hope I know quite a bit about the political history of this country and the Tory party ha!

Dinny be daft. When did students know anything?

Joke...

[MountcastleHibs]

So why have a go at me?

As I pointed out in an earlier post, I've already cast my vote for the Lib Dems and I hope for a hung parliament because I don't want a return to the FPP electoral system.



Dinny be daft. When did students know anything?

Joke...

Haha well when you see some of the people at uni, and hear what they say, you do wonder.

Like I say I apologise. Just got a bit ahead of myself and hot-headed. I too want a hung parliament, maybe get a mix of everyones policies which can only be a good thing. The election system should've been changed years ago, but both the Tories and Labour are scared to do because they'll lose the power they have. They'll be forced to change with a hung parliament.

It'll be utterly ridiculous if Labour finish 3rd in the popular vote but because of our ridiculous system, they hold on to some form of power, and finish with more seats than they should get.

[Leicester Fan]

Seems a lot of flak is being thrown at politicians, but what about employers, company owners, 'capitalists', bankers, hedge-fund managers, investors - the guys with the real power, none of whom are elected??
Because they are not in charge of our destinies. It's not their job to run our lives just turn a profit. You as an individual are not forced to deal with any of them.

[rightwinger]

You mean like John Major being caught on tape after his interview ended when he referred to half his Cabinet as the 'ba5tard5'? Get a grip.

If you'd double-check the context of that quote you'd actually find that it reflected Major's public position.

The '3 ********' quote was a direct way of telling the interviewer that he was hamstrung from throwing out the rebels from his cabinet (and the rebels didn't constitute 'half his cabinet' either). He couldn't do this because he reasoned that they could do more damage outside of the tent than in it. Hence Major's conciliatory position.

This is in contrast to Brown's remark which was completely two-faced and contradictory to his public position. It's Gordon Brown you should be telling to get a grip.

[PeeJay]

Because they are not in charge of our destinies. It's not their job to run our lives just turn a profit. You as an individual are not forced to deal with any of them.

Don't quite agree with that: hedge fund managers/investors/company owners can and do impact directly on the man in the street. They buy companies, relocate companies, destroy companies, waste resources, exploit workers, destroy economies through speculation, facilitate tax avoidance/evasion on huge scales, etc. - and the recent banking crisis has impacted to a far greater extent on all of us - and may continue to do so - than anything in our recent history. We have no control over these people. Is it not perhaps naive to believe that politicians alone can ultimately control the stock markets, investment banks, hedge fund managers, company managers? Perhaps we are concentrating on the wrong targets?

[rightwinger]

I'm no fan of the New Labour project, but for all it's failings you do have to give some credit for some of the good things it's done.

Ok, the gap between rich and poor has grown. This is not good, and quite strange for a Labour government - but still there is less poverty.

The Government could have done more to prevent the banking crisis - but what would the Tories have done? Less regulation? Let them get away with even more foul play? Let them go under (the Tory plan)?

To call it an entirely unproductive 13 years and writing off everything they've done is shambolic and a failure would be more than a tad harsh.

Does anybody else remember the overwhelming desire to punish the Tories after 18 years of "I'm alright, Jack" policies? The sheer joy of large parts of the nation as Labour won a landslide majority? Despite the fact the Tories are ahead in the polls, it's nothing like the momentum that swept Blair into power.

I firmly believe that a Lib-Lab coalition which brings together the best parts of each parties policies will bring about a fair and progressive tax system, and way of governing. Despite "Dave's" claims to have met the entire nation who agree with all his policies, the Tories are as out of touch with the man on the street as they ever were, because they do not represent man on the street. They represent man in the boardroom, man in tax exile, man in the mansion.


Your post kind of sums things up.

You note correctly that Labour have done some good things. There's no doubt about that. It would be harsh to dismiss Labour's 13 years as a total failure. It would be wrong.

But you then go on to take a sideswipe at 18 years of Tory rule before criticising David Cameron.

Your criticism of Labour is constructive and understanding, but there is no objectivity to your criticism of the Tories.

So are you saying it's fair to be harsh on the Tories but not on Labour?

This is my problem with the Scottish anti-Tory mentality. It's fatally flawed because both Labour and Tory are far too similar and have done good and bad things in equal measure for so much of the people up here to take such an extreme position. Labour are not white knights but the Tories are not the devil.

Remember one thing - Thatcher inherited a real mess in 1979. She took tough, controversial, and extreme measures to deal with it. Success was mixed and some working class people were hit very hard. But some working class people did very well and many of us (ie working class) voted for her. Thatcher left Scotland and the UK in a stronger position than she took it - that either reflects well on her or badly on the old Labour regime (a bit of both IMO). Not until Labour took a large gulp of Thatcher's medicine (first under Kinnock, then Blair) did they get near to power. They won a landslide in 1997 because people hated the Tory party - not because people necessarily thought they were incompetent. Unlike 1979, the country was in a stale but solid state and - with the Tories washed up - Blair/Brown had a free run at taking the country forward. With minor exceptions, they have spectacularly failed. Public services have improved - but nowhere near a level that matches the expenditure - something which you and me are now going to pay for for a long long time.

We'll pay for the mistakes of New Labour much longer than the mistakes of Thatcher. The only mistake Thatcher made that got overturned was the poll tax - and it was Major that corrected that. Labour have changed nothing that Thatcher did. They've spent a lot more though - carelessly and inefficiently.

How many crunch games to Hibs have to blow before we realise that they'll always blow crunch games? How many times do Labour have to bring the country to it's knees before we in Scotland see that they are not the lesser of two evils. They are just as big an evil as the Tory party.

This isn't pro-Tory propaganda. I don't like the Tory party. I'm not going to vote Tory. I don't like the Labour party either and I'm fed up of people up here telling me one is so much worse than the other. It's like the 'big team wee team' rubbish that Hearts fans come out with.

We only got Thatcher because Labour took the country to the brink of bankruptcy in 1979. We're only going to get Cameron because Labour have done the same in 2010. The root problem IMO therefore equals Labour. They keep creating the mess that the country elects the Tories to attend to.

[Beefster]

Don't quite agree with that: hedge fund managers/investors/company owners can and do impact directly on the man in the street. They buy companies, relocate companies, destroy companies, waste resources, exploit workers, destroy economies through speculation, facilitate tax avoidance/evasion on huge scales, etc. - and the recent banking crisis has impacted to a far greater extent on all of us - and may continue to do so - than anything in our recent history. We have no control over these people. Is it not perhaps naive to believe that politicians alone can ultimately control the stock markets, investment banks, hedge fund managers, company managers? Perhaps we are concentrating on the wrong targets?

All those that you're talking about also employ millions, fund start-ups, create the wealth, grow pension funds, fund vast swathes of governmental spending, loan money to the government, give millions to charity etc.

Just thought I'd add that for a little bit of balance.

[The_Todd]

Your post kind of sums things up.

You note correctly that Labour have done some good things. There's no doubt about that. It would be harsh to dismiss Labour's 13 years as a total failure. It would be wrong.

But you then go on to take a sideswipe at 18 years of Tory rule before criticising David Cameron.

Your criticism of Labour is constructive and understanding, but there is no objectivity to your criticism of the Tories.

So are you saying it's fair to be harsh on the Tories but not on Labour?

This is my problem with the Scottish anti-Tory mentality. It's fatally flawed because both Labour and Tory are far too similar and have done good and bad things in equal measure for so much of the people up here to take such an extreme position. Labour are not white knights but the Tories are not the devil.

Remember one thing - Thatcher inherited a real mess in 1979. She took tough, controversial, and extreme measures to deal with it. Success was mixed and some working class people were hit very hard. But some working class people did very well and many of us (ie working class) voted for her. Thatcher left Scotland and the UK in a stronger position than she took it - that either reflects well on her or badly on the old Labour regime (a bit of both IMO). Not until Labour took a large gulp of Thatcher's medicine (first under Kinnock, then Blair) did they get near to power. They won a landslide in 1997 because people hated the Tory party - not because people necessarily thought they were incompetent. Unlike 1979, the country was in a stale but solid state and - with the Tories washed up - Blair/Brown had a free run at taking the country forward. With minor exceptions, they have spectacularly failed. Public services have improved - but nowhere near a level that matches the expenditure - something which you and me are now going to pay for for a long long time.

We'll pay for the mistakes of New Labour much longer than the mistakes of Thatcher. The only mistake Thatcher made that got overturned was the poll tax - and it was Major that corrected that. Labour have changed nothing that Thatcher did. They've spent a lot more though - carelessly and inefficiently.

How many crunch games to Hibs have to blow before we realise that they'll always blow crunch games? How many times do Labour have to bring the country to it's knees before we in Scotland see that they are not the lesser of two evils. They are just as big an evil as the Tory party.

This isn't pro-Tory propaganda. I don't like the Tory party. I'm not going to vote Tory. I don't like the Labour party either and I'm fed up of people up here telling me one is so much worse than the other. It's like the 'big team wee team' rubbish that Hearts fans come out with.

We only got Thatcher because Labour took the country to the brink of bankruptcy in 1979. We're only going to get Cameron because Labour have done the same in 2010. The root problem IMO therefore equals Labour. They keep creating the mess that the country elects the Tories to attend to.

The Tories do have some ideas I wouldn't argue against: they seem to oppose some of the actions of the Labour government which have eroded some civil liberties. Scrapping ID cards? Yup, I'll have me some of that action.

However I am very uneasy with the Tories ideas of "all in for yourselves" philosophy, the way they're openly protective of big businesses rather than the people who work for them. If you make enough for your family, then screw the rest of society ("big" or otherwise).

I don't like the way they prefer private ownership of absolutely everything and anything because I don't believe rampant free markets should be operating public services as their bottom line of profits won't always equal the bottom line of serving the public. They'd sell off your Granny if they thought a private company could benefit.

I also feel uneasy that people are drawn in because Cameron is the acceptable face of the Tories when underneath I don't think the party has changed much. In fact, I don't think that "Dave" is an acceptable face of the Tories either, but some people can't see past the fact he's "young", so therefore he must equal change.

I don't think the Tories have ever spoken for me, or ever will speak for me. The only way my views will align with theirs is if mine suddenly shift - I don't theirs will. I'm not saying they're "wrong", "bad" or "evil" - I just disagree with most of their policies.

But you're right, for some people it will be like a football tribalism. "I vote Labour because my Dad did" is not a valid reason to vote Labour. "I vote Labour because I think they're best placed to help the worst off in society", however, is.

This is all moot, though: I won't be voting Labour this time around (although when the election was announced this was my intention) - I'll be voting for the party which wants real electoral reform and civil liberties: the Liberal Democrats. My favoured outcome, as I've already stated, is a LibLab coalition as I believe a marriage of the two parties (even on a short-term basis) would combine the best of both parties policies.

Rant over! :greengrin

[PeeJay]

All those that you're talking about also employ millions, fund start-ups, create the wealth, grow pension funds, fund vast swathes of governmental spending, loan money to the government, give millions to charity etc.

Just thought I'd add that for a little bit of balance.


Yet it's hardly "balanced" if millions employed are exploited, if the wealth created is not 'shared out' and only pocketed by a relative few, if tax avoidance is practised by - in particular in the UK and the City - to the detriment of society, as billions are routed away from the treasury ... not to forget creative accounting and so on,and so on with the 'man on the street' shouldering the largest portion of the burden? Obviously industry, banks and whatever have their place in society - I was just trying to suggest that the underlying problem lies outwith the remit of our "hated" politicians and we as a society should perhaps focus more on dealing with such unelected power bases, that are apparently responsible to no one and where anything resembling a social-democratic factor is completely missing.

[rightwinger]

The Tories do have some ideas I wouldn't argue against: they seem to oppose some of the actions of the Labour government which have eroded some civil liberties. Scrapping ID cards? Yup, I'll have me some of that action.

However I am very uneasy with the Tories ideas of "all in for yourselves" philosophy, the way they're openly protective of big businesses rather than the people who work for them. If you make enough for your family, then screw the rest of society ("big" or otherwise).

I don't like the way they prefer private ownership of absolutely everything and anything because I don't believe rampant free markets should be operating public services as their bottom line of profits won't always equal the bottom line of serving the public. They'd sell off your Granny if they thought a private company could benefit.

I also feel uneasy that people are drawn in because Cameron is the acceptable face of the Tories when underneath I don't think the party has changed much. In fact, I don't think that "Dave" is an acceptable face of the Tories either, but some people can't see past the fact he's "young", so therefore he must equal change.

I don't think the Tories have ever spoken for me, or ever will speak for me. The only way my views will align with theirs is if mine suddenly shift - I don't theirs will. I'm not saying they're "wrong", "bad" or "evil" - I just disagree with most of their policies.

But you're right, for some people it will be like a football tribalism. "I vote Labour because my Dad did" is not a valid reason to vote Labour. "I vote Labour because I think they're best placed to help the worst off in society", however, is.

This is all moot, though: I won't be voting Labour this time around (although when the election was announced this was my intention) - I'll be voting for the party which wants real electoral reform and civil liberties: the Liberal Democrats. My favoured outcome, as I've already stated, is a LibLab coalition as I believe a marriage of the two parties (even on a short-term basis) would combine the best of both parties policies.

Rant over! :greengrin

No rant - all seems pretty fair to me.

The other thing worth noting is that both parties have left and right sides. Theres obviously a big difference between Labour left and Tory right but is there much difference between Labour right and Tory left/centre? John Major always complained that Tony Blair just nicked a lot of his ideas and presented them with more gusto and verve.

The side of the party that is prevalent will depend on the leader. That's the problem! Can we say for certainty which side of their parties Brown and Cameron fall on?

Murdo McLeod has apparently come out backing the Tories today. I wouldn't go that far but I do think it's probably time for a change. Everything's so uncertain though and that's reflected in the polls.

Wind the clock back to 1992 and Labour's shock defeat proved a blessing in disguise. The Tories hung on after 13 years and fell apart after 18 years. Maybe it would be better for the Tories to avoid a narrow majority and let a lib/lab coalition take the poisoned chalice/hospital pass.

[rightwinger]

Anybody ever watched or read Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain? It's heavily oriented on the government of the day and gives a really interesting and balanced insight into the decisions taken.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Unemployment has still not reached the heights it did under the last conservative government.

I agree that both the labour and the tories have both contributed to the downfall of industry in this country.

I hate the Tories. I wonder though, if all that has happened vis a vis unemployment, is that there are now more people on Disability Benefit.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yet it's hardly "balanced" if millions employed are exploited, if the wealth created is not 'shared out' and only pocketed by a relative few, if tax avoidance is practised by - in particular in the UK and the City - to the detriment of society, as billions are routed away from the treasury ... not to forget creative accounting and so on,and so on with the 'man on the street' shouldering the largest portion of the burden? Obviously industry, banks and whatever have their place in society - I was just trying to suggest that the underlying problem lies outwith the remit of our "hated" politicians and we as a society should perhaps focus more on dealing with such unelected power bases, that are apparently responsible to no one and where anything resembling a social-democratic factor is completely missing.

:agree: Shoot the ********s, because they would have no hesitation in doing it to us if they were threatened at all. The gentry are nothing more than descendants of gangsters and robbers, they will stop at nothing to get their way.

[Beefster]

Yet it's hardly "balanced" if millions employed are exploited, if the wealth created is not 'shared out' and only pocketed by a relative few, if tax avoidance is practised by - in particular in the UK and the City - to the detriment of society, as billions are routed away from the treasury ... not to forget creative accounting and so on,and so on with the 'man on the street' shouldering the largest portion of the burden? Obviously industry, banks and whatever have their place in society - I was just trying to suggest that the underlying problem lies outwith the remit of our "hated" politicians and we as a society should perhaps focus more on dealing with such unelected power bases, that are apparently responsible to no one and where anything resembling a social-democratic factor is completely missing.

The wealth is shared out in jobs, tax, growth on pensions, dividends etc. I'm not defending tax evasion incidentally, only adding some balance to your post about all the bad things that company owners and investors do.

[khib70]

The wealth is shared out in jobs, tax, growth on pensions, dividends etc. I'm not defending tax evasion incidentally, only adding some balance to your post about all the bad things that company owners and investors do.
:agree:Exactly. You cant redistribute wealth if there's no mechanism for creating it. That's why every socialist economy ever has failed on the basic level of feeding their own people. On top of being totally unable to command the economy without stripping away the rights of the individual in the name of "equality".

[lucky]

just returning from a meeting London and colleagues are telling that the Labour vote is very soft and switching to the Lib Dem's but the Tories are desperate for power and are working hard to get their core vote out. As such all my colleagues are predicting a Tory win with a majority of around 30.:grr:

This astounds me as I can not forgive forget the devastation that Thatcher caused on the communities of Britain. She should be tried for crimes against humanity.

Whilst Labour have made several mistakes i believe there have been many pluses such as 100k new medical staff, minimum wage, reduced waiting times massive investment in public services.

Thatcher sold the family silver by selling of all the commodities, as well BA and BR. She sold of the social housing stock and refused to build new ones not to mention the Falklands war.

So tomorrow when you enter the ballot box remember what the Tories done to this country. and here is a little reminder of what ''Dave'' will be like

YouTube - The Common People (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFTtYx2OHc)

[Leicester Fan]

[/URL][url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8659399.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8659399.stm)

A Labour candidate has launched a personal attack on Gordon Brown, saying he is "the worst prime minister we have had in this country".
Manish Sood, who is standing in North West Norfolk, added that Mr Brown was a "disgrace".
Mr Sood called Labour ministers "corrupt" and said the party had allowed immigration to get too high.
Labour said Mr Sood's remarks were "dreadful" and the latest in a series of "bizarre comments" he has made.
The party has not suspended him, so as things stand his name will still be on the ballot paper for Labour.
'Owes apology'
Mr Sood had been speaking to a local newspaper, Lynn News.
He went on to say the prime minister "owes an apology to the people and the Queen".

[Dashing Bob S]

Because they are not in charge of our destinies. It's not their job to run our lives just turn a profit. You as an individual are not forced to deal with any of them.

:faf::faf::faf:

Quite possibly the dimmest post ever on this forum. :top marks

[Phil D. Rolls]

just returning from a meeting London and colleagues are telling that the Labour vote is very soft and switching to the Lib Dem's but the Tories are desperate for power and are working hard to get their core vote out. As such all my colleagues are predicting a Tory win with a majority of around 30.:grr:

This astounds me as I can not forgive forget the devastation that Thatcher caused on the communities of Britain. She should be tried for crimes against humanity.

Whilst Labour have made several mistakes i believe there have been many pluses such as 100k new medical staff, minimum wage, reduced waiting times massive investment in public services.

Thatcher sold the family silver by selling of all the commodities, as well BA and BR. She sold of the social housing stock and refused to build new ones not to mention the Falklands war.

So tomorrow when you enter the ballot box remember what the Tories done to this country. and here is a little reminder of what ''Dave'' will be like

YouTube - The Common People (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFTtYx2OHc)

They didn't give a sh*t when Thatcher was in, and that was one of the things that told me there was no point in being part of the United Kingdom. I'm sure it's "the good old days" for many in the South East.

[Leicester Fan]

:faf::faf::faf:

Quite possibly the dimmest post ever on this forum. :top marks

Well you may deal with hedge fund managers but I don't move in those circles. As for investors do you really think they give a **** about your life, let alone try and run it?

[Leicester Fan]

not to mention the Falklands war.

So killing enemy combatants of a country that invaded our territory is worse than bombing civilians in an illegal war.

You have to admire Labour voters for their selective outrage.

[Beefster]

just returning from a meeting London and colleagues are telling that the Labour vote is very soft and switching to the Lib Dem's but the Tories are desperate for power and are working hard to get their core vote out. As such all my colleagues are predicting a Tory win with a majority of around 30.:grr:

This astounds me as I can not forgive forget the devastation that Thatcher caused on the communities of Britain. She should be tried for crimes against humanity.

Whilst Labour have made several mistakes i believe there have been many pluses such as 100k new medical staff, minimum wage, reduced waiting times massive investment in public services.

Thatcher sold the family silver by selling of all the commodities, as well BA and BR. She sold of the social housing stock and refused to build new ones not to mention the Falklands war.

So tomorrow when you enter the ballot box remember what the Tories done to this country. and here is a little reminder of what ''Dave'' will be like

I was going to argue with all of this but I can't be arsed.

I can't wait for tomorrow night at 10pm just so I don't have to listen to bitter Labour supporters bleating on about the 80's and twisting the truth any more. At least if the Tories win, you'll have a new evil empire to moan about.

PS Labour supported the re-taking of the Falklands.

[Dashing Bob S]

Well you may deal with hedge fund managers but I don't move in those circles. As for investors do you really think they give a **** about your life, let alone try and run it?

It doesn't matter whether they give a toss about our lives, you have to be as dim as a doughnut to contend that their actions don't impact on how it's run. Or perhaps right wing and centrist governments across the world have been regulating financial markets and nationalizing banks just for something to do? Or is the Leicester you're living in some colony of Mars?

[lyonhibs]

Because they are not in charge of our destinies. It's not their job to run our lives just turn a profit. You as an individual are not forced to deal with any of them.

Are you saying the behaviour and decisions of bankers, employers, investors etc do NOT have an impact on your every day fortunes??

I guess that would be true if you didn't have a job, mortgage or any savings investments the fortunes of which are linked to the fortunes of stock-exchange listed companies.

But that would put you in a p r e t t y small minority I'd wager, no?? :confused:

Governments influence extends only so far, but ironically the same people who whinge about how they suddenly find themselves in debt/long term unemployed, and how the government was to blame for this and should be sorting this out for them, are the same people who would invariably whinge if said Government was to propose leglislation which ACTUALLY allowed it to control their lives fully to that extent.

A lot of people love their rights, but without taking on board the personal responsibilities that come with them IMO

[Betty Boop]

Are you saying the behaviour and decisions of bankers, employers, investors etc do NOT have an impact on your every day fortunes??

I guess that would be true if you didn't have a job, mortgage or any savings investments the fortunes of which are linked to the fortunes of stock-exchange listed companies.

But that would put you in a p r e t t y small minority I'd wager, no?? :confused:

Governments influence extends only so far, but ironically the same people who whinge about how they suddenly find themselves in debt/long term unemployed, and how the government was to blame for this and should be sorting this out for them, are the same people who would invariably whinge if said Government was to propose leglislation which ACTUALLY allowed it to control their lives fully to that extent.

A lot of people love their rights, but without taking on board the personal responsibilities that come with them IMO

Some would say Banks run the Economy.

[One Day Soon]

I was going to argue with all of this but I can't be arsed.

I can't wait for tomorrow night at 10pm just so I don't have to listen to bitter Labour supporters bleating on about the 80's and twisting the truth any more. At least if the Tories win, you'll have a new evil empire to moan about.

PS Labour supported the re-taking of the Falklands.


I have felt that several times during some of the discussions on here during the election.

Let me just say I can't wait for the next four years so I don't have to listen to bitter Nat, Tory and Lentillista supporters bleating on about the last 13 years and twisting the truth any more. At least if the Tories win people who have had it very good for a very long time will have their blinkered eyes opened.

See what I did there?

Anyway, cheer up. Once this is out of the way we are pretty much straight into next year's Scottish Parliament election campaign. And then the year after that we have the Council elections.

But the best bit is that the way the polls are looking its quite likely we will have another UK general election within a year or two anyway. Anyone think this thread could be a slow burner that outstrips even the legendary "Calender" thread?

[JimBHibees]

just returning from a meeting London and colleagues are telling that the Labour vote is very soft and switching to the Lib Dem's but the Tories are desperate for power and are working hard to get their core vote out. As such all my colleagues are predicting a Tory win with a majority of around 30.:grr:

This astounds me as I can not forgive forget the devastation that Thatcher caused on the communities of Britain. She should be tried for crimes against humanity.
Whilst Labour have made several mistakes i believe there have been many pluses such as 100k new medical staff, minimum wage, reduced waiting times massive investment in public services.

Thatcher sold the family silver by selling of all the commodities, as well BA and BR. She sold of the social housing stock and refused to build new ones not to mention the Falklands war.

So tomorrow when you enter the ballot box remember what the Tories done to this country. and here is a little reminder of what ''Dave'' will be like

YouTube - The Common People (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFTtYx2OHc)

While Blair should have been done for war crimes.

[Leicester Fan]

Are you saying the behaviour and decisions of bankers, employers, investors etc do NOT have an impact on your every day fortunes??


Lots of things have an impact on my life, my neighbours, my kids, my parents, the people I work for, the local council and probably most of all the govt.

The difference with 'the bankers' or 'hedge fund managers' is that they are not interested in my life and they don't claim any responsibility for it either. They pay their tax ( as little as they can get away with obviously), they don't set the rate they pay, they don't decide what allowances are legal and they don't choose how it's spent.

All they exist for is to make profits for their shareholders and there's nothing wrong with that.

[snooky]

I detest them all - the politicians, their lies, their spin, their greed.
This election was like being asked to pick the executioner you would like to hang you. Although all the parties have their fair share of faults listed above, I could never vote Tory as IMO, they have little or no social conscience.

Michael Portillo used this catchphrase on the news the other night - "Unfortunately, some of the wagons will have to be left behind"

Oh really Mikey - and is your wagon currently at the front or rear? :hmmm:

[heretoday]

I now think it'll be a "confidence" agreement between Con and Lib dems. The Libs will nod through any legislation to do with government funding including the Queen's Speech and go easy on votes of confidence in the House. Goodness knows what they'll get in return.

It would mean the Lib Dems could pull the plug any time and we'd get another Election which will happen soon enough anyway.

[snooky]

I now think it'll be a "confidence" agreement between Con and Lib dems. The Libs will nod through any legislation to do with government funding including the Queen's Speech and go easy on votes of confidence in the House. Goodness knows what they'll get in return.

It would mean the Lib Dems could pull the plug any time and we'd get another Election which will happen soon enough anyway.

You've made a good point there.

If Labour are smart, they'll ditch their yesterday men pronto and install a leader with a personality otherwise, the result will be the same.

[Betty Boop]

You've made a good point there.

If Labour are smart, they'll ditch their yesterday men pronto and install a leader with a personality otherwise, the result will be the same.

Talk on the news of Brown resigning and David Milliband becoming leader.

[BroxburnHibee]

I now think it'll be a "confidence" agreement between Con and Lib dems. The Libs will nod through any legislation to do with government funding including the Queen's Speech and go easy on votes of confidence in the House. Goodness knows what they'll get in return.

It would mean the Lib Dems could pull the plug any time and we'd get another Election which will happen soon enough anyway.

The latest statement from the Lib Dems didn't mention voting reform.

If they've dropped that demand to get a share of power then I can imagine there will be a lot of unhappy people within their own party.

It was the one thing I was hoping the hung parliament would bring.

Clegg will be on a shoogly peg if he doesn't deliver and like others have said there will probably be another election soon.

Unfortunately I think the tories will walk it.

[snooky]

Talk on the news of Brown resigning and David Milliband becoming leader.

Slightly off the subject but, doesn't Peter Mandleson have a mush that you would never tire smacking. :take that

[Beefster]

The latest statement from the Lib Dems didn't mention voting reform.

If they've dropped that demand to get a share of power then I can imagine there will be a lot of unhappy people within their own party.

It was the one thing I was hoping the hung parliament would bring.

Clegg will be on a shoogly peg if he doesn't deliver and like others have said there will probably be another election soon.

Unfortunately I think the tories will walk it.

Apparently a free vote on a referendum on PR in the Commons is being promised. Considering the fact that all Tory and a large number of Labour MPs will vote against it, I can't see it getting through (if it happens).

As for a forthcoming election, if the Tories call it saying "we can't govern like this and are being blocked at every opportunity", you're right, they will likely get a fairly sizeable majority next time round.

[(((Fergus)))]

Apparently a free vote on a referendum on PR in the Commons is being promised. Considering the fact that all Tory and a large number of Labour MPs will vote against it, I can't see it getting through (if it happens).

As for a forthcoming election, if the Tories call it saying "we can't govern like this and are being blocked at every opportunity", you're right, they will likely get a fairly sizeable majority next time round.

Do you think the spectre of BNP (or worse) MPs might be used to justify a rejection of PR?

[Betty Boop]

Slightly off the subject but, doesn't Peter Mandleson have a mush that you would never tire smacking. :take that

Aye! :agree:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The Tories do have some

I don't like the way they prefer private ownership of absolutely everything and anything because I don't believe rampant free markets should be operating public services as their bottom line of profits won't always equal the bottom line of serving the public. They'd sell off your Granny if they thought a private company could benefit.



I agree with a lot of what you say mate, but i also agree with rightwinger - i actually had a good argument/debate with my uncle on way to game today - i said i considered tactically voting tory to oust the labour guy in my seat (SNP and LDs were nowhere) and he was horrified at the thought of voting tory. Its true thatcher has become this Longshanks-type figure here in Scotland but she was twenty-odd years ago, and it is true that Labour in the 70s ran this country into the ground - 3 day week, IMF bail-out etc.

The point you make above probably sums up rightwingers point though - tories openly champion privtae ownership (i dont agree), but what did labour do about it in 13 years? Dropping clause 4 was one of the first things Blair did.

I think the Labour party do very well out of the reflected glory of their hey-day of genuinely fighting for the working man when socialism was relevant.

How people can produly proclaim (as too many do in Scotland) that they have 'always voted labour' they are the problem - voting for a party who they might think are socialist, and once were but now bare no resemblance to socialists.

Scots need to grow up IMHO if they think blindly following one (incredibly complacent and arrogant) party can be a positive thing.

[Mibbes Aye]

I agree with a lot of what you say mate, but i also agree with rightwinger - i actually had a good argument/debate with my uncle on way to game today - i said i considered tactically voting tory to oust the labour guy in my seat (SNP and LDs were nowhere) and he was horrified at the thought of voting tory. Its true thatcher has become this Longshanks-type figure here in Scotland but she was twenty-odd years ago, and it is true that Labour in the 70s ran this country into the ground - 3 day week, IMF bail-out etc.

The point you make above probably sums up rightwingers point though - tories openly champion privtae ownership (i dont agree), but what did labour do about it in 13 years? Dropping clause 4 was one of the first things Blair did.

I think the Labour party do very well out of the reflected glory of their hey-day of genuinely fighting for the working man when socialism was relevant.

How people can produly proclaim (as too many do in Scotland) that they have 'always voted labour' they are the problem - voting for a party who they might think are socialist, and once were but now bare no resemblance to socialists.

Scots need to grow up IMHO if they think blindly following one (incredibly complacent and arrogant) party can be a positive thing.

The three day week was when Ted Heath and the Conservatives were in charge.

[ballengeich]

I think the Labour party do very well out of the reflected glory of their hey-day of genuinely fighting for the working man when socialism was relevant.

How people can produly proclaim (as too many do in Scotland) that they have 'always voted labour' they are the problem - voting for a party who they might think are socialist, and once were but now bare no resemblance to socialists.

Scots need to grow up IMHO if they think blindly following one (incredibly complacent and arrogant) party can be a positive thing.

I agree with the part of your post regarding Scots' reflex "I've always voted Labour" and your comment on the complacent and arrogant Labour party.

However, why do you think that socialism is no longer relevant? I realise that socialism can cover a broad range of beliefs, but is the fault in the Labour party not that it has abandoned the values that made it worthwhile? The years since 1997 have seen an increase in economic inequality. Gordon Brown once stood in front of a City gathering proclaiming Labour as "The Party of Enterprise". Is that what Labour party activists wanted when they joined the party?

I've voted for Labour in the past, but wouldn't consider it again until it rediscovers its traditional purposes.

[Leicester Fan]

As for a forthcoming election, if the Tories call it saying "we can't govern like this and are being blocked at every opportunity", you're right, they will likely get a fairly sizeable majority next time round.

I wish I had your confidence. There's no guarantee that an election in 6/12/18 months time will deliver a majority for anyone either.

[BroxburnHibee]

Apparently a free vote on a referendum on PR in the Commons is being promised. Considering the fact that all Tory and a large number of Labour MPs will vote against it, I can't see it getting through (if it happens).

As for a forthcoming election, if the Tories call it saying "we can't govern like this and are being blocked at every opportunity", you're right, they will likely get a fairly sizeable majority next time round.



Not good enough :bitchy: for the reasons you've stated.

At least Labour offered the referendum straight up.

I've a feeling this deal will leave a bad taste in the mouth.

[Betty Boop]

Do you think the spectre of BNP (or worse) MPs might be used to justify a rejection of PR?

It does make you think. Under PR the BNP would have 12 seats, a frightening thought! :bitchy:

[ballengeich]

It does make you think. Under PR the BNP would have 12 seats, a frightening thought! :bitchy:

On the other hand, if the BNP ever reached 35% of the vote, PR would ensure that they didn't have an overwhelming majority in Parliament.

[Woody1985]

It does make you think. Under PR the BNP would have 12 seats, a frightening thought! :bitchy:

BB, I'm going to sound like a BNP sympathiser again, which I'm not, but if you want democracy and legitimate political parties take a place then you'll just need to accept that they ARE representing a proportion of the population and that we'll need to deal with those challenges when they arise.

Are the views of those people who support the BNP any less valuable than your views?

It's regularly discussed on here that people should be educated rather than suppressed for their views and their actions. Should we not try to educate those people and give them reason to vote for other parties or do you simply want to suppress them because they do not conform to left wing thinking?

[rightwinger]

Anybody see the documentary on bbc1 about why Scots never vote Tory.

I missed the first third of it but what I saw gave a pretty fascinating insight into the struggle they are facing up here.

Everywhere else in the UK they have recovered and recovered fairly well since 1997.

But in Scotland they are still struggling obviously - a variety of reasons were given for this including:

*the Scots feeling of community (ie those who would benefit from voting tory not doing so through respect of others in the community)
*Labour scaremongering/propaganda that the Tories were too slow to defend themselves against
*Thatcher and the Poll Tax
*People being less informed politically and more likely to stick with what they know
*A generational thing - the tories support has previously fluctuated from few seats in the 50s to 20+ in the 70s to 0 in the 90s

I'd say anti-Thatcher feeling is the primary one and the rest secondary factors.

One scholar remarked that Thatcherism - with its emphasis on liberating people and giving them the opportunities to create their own wealth (ie working class boy made good type of thing) is hardly something foreign to the Scottish psyche.

For me, that's the positive side of Thatcherism that the lower middle classes in England tended to latch on to. The Scots, however, focussed more on the genuinely disadvantaged sections of society that Thatcher's 'tough love' approach ruthlessly left by the wayside. Every coin has a flip side.

To be fair though, I got the impression that a lot of Conservative candidates of today - inc a lot of students - are quite equivocal about Thatcher and seem quite genuine in their attempts to distance themselves from her.

The only way we'll be able to find out whether or not the Conservatives have truly changed or evolved is if they get back in to govt. I wouldn't say I'm happy about such a prospect but I am curious to see how it would transpire.

As I've said all along, it's not the scepticism towards the Conservatives I have an issue with - it's the fact that the Labour party does not incur the same level of scrutiny, cynicism or punishment in Scotland for their failures down the years.

In large areas of England of course there are people with the opposite mentality: those who will always vote Tory for 'fear' of Labour getting in. That's not a position that I can appreciate either.

[Betty Boop]

BB, I'm going to sound like a BNP sympathiser again, which I'm not, but if you want democracy and legitimate political parties take a place then you'll just need to accept that they ARE representing a proportion of the population and that we'll need to deal with those challenges when they arise.

Are the views of those people who support the BNP any less valuable than your views?

It's regularly discussed on here that people should be educated rather than suppressed for their views and their actions. Should we not try to educate those people and give them reason to vote for other parties or do you simply want to suppress them because they do not conform to left wing thinking?

Without the White race, nothing matters... we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land".
- Quoted from Nick Griffin, Source: Times Online

Yes, I think filth with views like this should be suppressed, and should have no part in our political system.

[snooky]

Anybody see the documentary on bbc1 about why Scots never vote Tory.

I missed the first third of it but what I saw gave a pretty fascinating insight into the struggle they are facing up here.

Everywhere else in the UK they have recovered and recovered fairly well since 1997.

But in Scotland they are still struggling obviously - a variety of reasons were given for this including:

*the Scots feeling of community (ie those who would benefit from voting tory not doing so through respect of others in the community)
*Labour scaremongering/propaganda that the Tories were too slow to defend themselves against
*Thatcher and the Poll Tax
*People being less informed politically and more likely to stick with what they know
*A generational thing - the tories support has previously fluctuated from few seats in the 50s to 20+ in the 70s to 0 in the 90s

I'd say anti-Thatcher feeling is the primary one and the rest secondary factors.

One scholar remarked that Thatcherism - with its emphasis on liberating people and giving them the opportunities to create their own wealth (ie working class boy made good type of thing) is hardly something foreign to the Scottish psyche.

For me, that's the positive side of Thatcherism that the lower middle classes in England tended to latch on to. The Scots, however, focussed more on the genuinely disadvantaged sections of society that Thatcher's 'tough love' approach ruthlessly left by the wayside. Every coin has a flip side.

To be fair though, I got the impression that a lot of Conservative candidates of today - inc a lot of students - are quite equivocal about Thatcher and seem quite genuine in their attempts to distance themselves from her.

The only way we'll be able to find out whether or not the Conservatives have truly changed or evolved is if they get back in to govt. I wouldn't say I'm happy about such a prospect but I am curious to see how it would transpire.

As I've said all along, it's not the scepticism towards the Conservatives I have an issue with - it's the fact that the Labour party does not incur the same level of scrutiny, cynicism or punishment in Scotland for their failures down the years.

In large areas of England of course there are people with the opposite mentality: those who will always vote Tory for 'fear' of Labour getting in. That's not a position that I can appreciate either.

Great UserName you have for a threads like this one, BTW :wink:

[rightwinger]

Great UserName you have for a threads like this one, BTW :wink:

:greengrin- my username's a reference to a pub not politics!

Hand on heart, I was not one of the 17% of the Scottish electorate that voted blue on Thursday, although some on here seem to have viewed the fact that I don't automatically hate the Tories to mean that I must be an ardent supporter of them.

I didn't vote on principle. But that hasn't stopped me taking a keen interest in what has been a fascinating election.

[Beefster]

Do you think the spectre of BNP (or worse) MPs might be used to justify a rejection of PR?

What's getting me about the current clamour for PR is that I've seen several champions of it on TV moaning about the 'shady deals currently going on behind closed doors'. WTF do they think that every election will be like in the event of PR?!

[Woody1985]

Without the White race, nothing matters... we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land".
- Quoted from Nick Griffin, Source: Times Online

Yes, I think filth with views like this should be suppressed, and should have no part in our political system.

What can be done to remove them from the political system legitimately, if anything?

What can be done to reduce those who vote for them?

Or is simply banning them your only solution?

[(((Fergus)))]

Without the White race, nothing matters... we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land".
- Quoted from Nick Griffin, Source: Times Online

Yes, I think filth with views like this should be suppressed, and should have no part in our political system.

If they are suppressed in the political system they will express elsewhere, don't you think?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Anybody see the documentary on bbc1 about why Scots never vote Tory.



The fundamental thing that the Tories were unable to grasp and, by the looks of at least one of those candidates followed last night are still unable to grasps, is that people would consider others before voting for a parties policies.

They just don't get that it is important to most Scots how their neighbours are getting on. I don't know why that should be, but it seems to be something a lot of people subscribe to. We maybe have a greater collective sense than the English?

[Beefster]

It's not so much the fact that the Tories don't get votes in Scotland, it's the fact that their vote isn't concentrated in dense enough clusters to allow them to pick up seats.

It's the same argument that the Lib Dems use in England. The Tories in Scotland had 40% of the Labour vote, 90% of the Lib Dem vote and 85% of the SNP vote but got 40, 10 and 5 seats less respectively.

I still wouldn't change FPTP though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's not so much the fact that the Tories don't get votes in Scotland, it's the fact that their vote isn't concentrated in dense enough clusters to allow them to pick up seats.

It's the same argument that the Lib Dems use in England. The Tories in Scotland had 40% of the Labour vote, 90% of the Lib Dem vote and 85% of the SNP vote but got 40, 10 and 5 seats less respectively.

I still wouldn't change FPTP though.

If the Tories can't win a single seat in one of the UK's richest cities - Edinburgh, it has to say something. It seems to me like people just don't like them, and they are unable to find a way to make people like them.

I think it was Hirst last night that fell back on that hackneyed phrase from the Thatcher years, "communication". Back then their mantra was that it wasn't anything wrong with Conservative policies, it was just that we weren't listening - they were actually for our good.

20 years on, it seems that it's the Tories who haven't been listening, because they still insist they did no wrong during their time in office. Nothing apart from smashing a way of life into pieces and then expecting people who had been told their place for generations, to start thinking for themselves.

Yeah, that worked. It was like turning off a life support machine and expecting the patient to drive himself home from hospital.

[snooky]

The fundamental thing that the Tories were unable to grasp and, by the looks of at least one of those candidates followed last night are still unable to grasps, is that people would consider others before voting for a parties policies.

They just don't get that it is important to most Scots how their neighbours are getting on. I don't know why that should be, but it seems to be something a lot of people subscribe to. We maybe have a greater collective sense than the English?

I think it's cos the Scots are all Jock Tamson's bairns and they're not.

[Dashing Bob S]

After the war and right up to the sixties, the Tories were the biggest party in Scotland in terms of seats. Their demise here can't be explained by Thatcherism alone.

- The growth of nationalism and the strong performance Liberal party has decimated them in rural seats.

- Their secular decline as the sole party of unionism as decimated them in working-class urban Scotland.

- They are seen as a party who put the interests of south-east England above Scotland. They are as dominant there as they are weak here, and as long as that continues will always show that bias in their support.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I agree with the part of your post regarding Scots' reflex "I've always voted Labour" and your comment on the complacent and arrogant Labour party.

However, why do you think that socialism is no longer relevant? I realise that socialism can cover a broad range of beliefs, but is the fault in the Labour party not that it has abandoned the values that made it worthwhile? The years since 1997 have seen an increase in economic inequality. Gordon Brown once stood in front of a City gathering proclaiming Labour as "The Party of Enterprise". Is that what Labour party activists wanted when they joined the party?

I've voted for Labour in the past, but wouldn't consider it again until it rediscovers its traditional purposes.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying that socialism being irrelevant is necessarily a good thing, but IMHO, the whole right-left socialist/capitalist debate is now irrelevant because of the way sociaety has developed.

I dunno which system won the ideological debate, its easy to point to the Cold War and say that capitalism won, and i suppose in many ways it did (over ststae socialism as practiced in Eastern Europe) but i think the way that politicians now fall over each other to talk about protecting the NHS shows that the 'left' had a significant impact in ameliorating the free-marketeers.

However this has left us with the hybrid system in which the idea of workers solidarity and oppressed working classes has gone - the end of manual labour and the rise of easy credit have seen to that (no doubt among other things).

I also tend to think that we have many of the opportunites that socialists fought for - comprehensive education, NHS, social mobility, property rights etc.

I think we live in a country where people can and do advance themselves and improve their and thei family's lot in life - i think the main problem now, and i realise that this may be controversial, is that too many people confuse laziness or lack of ability with lack of opportunity, and personal/societal flaws (instant gratification, loss of work ethic etc etc) with an oppressive system.

I think the idea of socialism was (crudely) that all should be at roughtly the same level of living standards, and that standard should be decent - well i think we largely have that or have even surpassed that standard in the UK, and so socialism would only make the majority worse-off.

The way the parties have squeezed into the middle-ground is indicative of this, and peoples lives are generally so comfortable that they are not interested in large-scale causes, just the details of government.

---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------


The three day week was when Ted Heath and the Conservatives were in charge.

My mistake

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Without the White race, nothing matters... we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land".
- Quoted from Nick Griffin, Source: Times Online

Yes, I think filth with views like this should be suppressed, and should have no part in our political system.


Thats called dictatorship.

Just because you might see yourself as progressive doesnt make it any less so.

Should communists be banned also?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If the Tories can't win a single seat in one of the UK's richest cities - Edinburgh, it has to say something. It seems to me like people just don't like them, and they are unable to find a way to make people like them.

I think it was Hirst last night that fell back on that hackneyed phrase from the Thatcher years, "communication". Back then their mantra was that it wasn't anything wrong with Conservative policies, it was just that we weren't listening - they were actually for our good.

20 years on, it seems that it's the Tories who haven't been listening, because they still insist they did no wrong during their time in office. Nothing apart from smashing a way of life into pieces and then expecting people who had been told their place for generations, to start thinking for themselves.

Yeah, that worked. It was like turning off a life support machine and expecting the patient to drive himself home from hospital.


I think people overplay the weakness of Tories in Scotland - they did get 17% of the vote afterall, and are the third biggest party (i think) at Holyrood.

I find it curious that people in Scotland take such delight at asserting how different we are in voting from the rest of the UK, but would react angrily to the suggestion that we should consider splitting from the UK.

It also cannot be denied that the prevaling media bias in Scotland helps Labour.

I actually quite agreed with the guy on that BBC tory programme who said that (traditional?) toryism (the whole lad o pairts thing) actually fitted in quite well with Scottish values.

I cant help but think that our society has lost that sense of self-improvement and instead would rather wallow in easy mediocrity than risk achieving something better but also risk cutting the apron-strings.