Could we be on the way to a new league ?

[down the slope]

I thought we were tied in to a tv contract with sky so how would this work ?, not that i'm against it as playing each other so many times a season is getting really boring.
ttp://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2010/04/16/terrified-chairmen-in-secret-talks-to-revolutionise-shamboli

[iwasthere1972]

I thought we were tied in to a tv contract with sky so how would this work ?, not that i'm against it as playing each other so many times a season is getting really boring.
ttp://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2010/04/16/terrified-chairmen-in-secret-talks-to-revolutionise-shamboli


Think the link should be.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2010/04/16/terrified-chairmen-in-secret-talks-to-revolutionise-shambolic-spl-86908-22189542/

[Westie1875]

I thought we were tied in to a tv contract with sky so how would this work ?, not that i'm against it as playing each other so many times a season is getting really boring.
ttp://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2010/04/16/terrified-chairmen-in-secret-talks-to-revolutionise-shamboli

How long was the deal signed with sky?

There would be a lead in time for any changes anyway, they can't implement anything next season as people are already buying season tickets on the basis of the current structure and number of home games.

[Danderhall Hibs]

How long was the deal signed with sky?

There would be a lead in time for any changes anyway, they can't implement anything next season as people are already buying season tickets on the basis of the current structure and number of home games.

What about those that went for the 3 year option then?

[GlesgaeHibby]

"There are balance-sheet figures about to come out which are appalling."
:brokenyam::lolyam::titanic:

[Westie1875]

What about those that went for the 3 year option then?

Good point, haven't a clue.

You'd think that if they're changing the product/number of games then the ST price would need to be reconsidered :dunno:

[Leith Green]

Great news if this does happen..

Just hope its not more drivel fron Hugh Keevins!!

[Danderhall Hibs]

Good point, haven't a clue.

You'd think that if they're changing the product/number of games then the ST price would need to be reconsidered :dunno:

You'd think that but they might say it's the chance you take. :dunno:

If you had a cat B season ticket this year your season's over, if we had drawn Motherwell and United at home though cat B's would have 2 more games left. How would that have been factored in?

[Westie1875]

You'd think that but they might say it's the chance you take. :dunno:

If you had a cat B season ticket this year your season's over, if we had drawn Motherwell and United at home though cat B's would have 2 more games left. How would that have been factored in?

I'm think this happened before and the people with Cat B season tickets were given one of the Cat A games to make the number of games up?

[Danderhall Hibs]

I'm think this happened before and the people with Cat B season tickets were given one of the Cat A games to make the number of games up?

I thought that happened as well but I've not heard a peep from the club as yet.

[andrew70]

Possibly saving Aberdeen from Relegation ... again :wink::rolleyes::confused:

[Jack]

Just yesterday, I’m sure, the BBC was reporting that restructuring was an absolute non-starter as they had canvassed the SPL Chairmen and at least 4 said no, it didn't name them. They need at least an 11 to 1 majority to make such a change.

At the recent listening events someone asked, with regard to the 3 year option on season tickets, what would happen if the league was to be restructured. The situation hadn’t even been considered. So there's one Chairman who hasn’t been involved or has been sleeping at all these secret meetings that have been happening over recent months.

And just one final thought on the reliability of this story – its in the Record!

[WindyMiller]

Just yesterday, I’m sure, the BBC was reporting that restructuring was an absolute non-starter as they had canvassed the SPL Chairmen and at least 4 said no, it didn't name them. They need at least an 11 to 1 majority to make such a change.

At the recent listening events someone asked, with regard to the 3 year option on season tickets, what would happen if the league was to be restructured. The situation hadn’t even been considered. So there's one Chairman who hasn’t been involved or has been sleeping at all these secret meetings that have been happening over recent months.

And just one final thought on the reliability of this story – its in the Record!


They would get around that if the SPL, as it stands, was disbanded amid league restructuring.

[HibsMax]

Could we be on our way to a new league? I was going to say yes but I think it's too late for us to be relegated this season, right? :wink:

[matty_f]

IMHO, the game in Scotland is going to die on it's erse unless action is taken sharpish to change things.

Whilst the split has thrown up some exciting finishes to the league in recent times, having the potential to play the same team 6 times a season (if you're drawn in both cups, more than that if it goes to a replay) is mind-numbing.

I'd happily take the OF once at Easter Road, and have just 2 derbies a season. For me it would make these games special again.

[Westie1875]

I thought that happened as well but I've not heard a peep from the club as yet.

I'd be straight on the phone to them if I were you to ask and reminding them what they did the last time.

[Wilson]

I'd be straight on the phone to them if I were you to ask and reminding them what they did the last time.

Glutton for punishment?

[matty_f]

I'd be straight on the phone to them if I were you to ask and reminding them what they did the last time.

DH - Hello, is that the ticket office?

TO - Yes.

DH - Do you mind that time when you gave a cat A ticket for those with the Cat B tickets?

TO - No mate, I only started last week.

DH - Right then, cheerio the now pal.

[heretoday]

IMHO, the game in Scotland is going to die on it's erse unless action is taken sharpish to change things.

Whilst the split has thrown up some exciting finishes to the league in recent times, having the potential to play the same team 6 times a season (if you're drawn in both cups, more than that if it goes to a replay) is mind-numbing.

I'd happily take the OF once at Easter Road, and have just 2 derbies a season. For me it would make these games special again.

Hear Hear! We might hope to see Hibs, and others, playing a more expansive type of football too.

It's all about money though.

[Joe Baker II]

Think lack of television income, prices, early kick off times and corresponding lack of reduced pricing at these games, and lack of limited standing areas far more of a problem than league structure (has never been perfect and given our population, never will be) although all but the latter are not unique to Scotland.

Two unique problems we have which clubs do not seem to have vision to challenge (or at least give a lead raising the issue, particularly on the first point) from the article are;

Extent of coverage of football in coverage (we must be unique in having a state-terrestrial provider that prefers to cover another country's league on Saturday nights).

Lack of alcohol (which is most blatant problem since it does not apply in rest of UK where it works perfectly well - could easily be introduced with different arrangements for some high-risk games, would certainly help attract fans to away games and grounds where no pubs nearby). And before anyone mentions Manchester 2008 (nothing to do with alcohol on sale at ground, a lot to do with general availability of alcohol in UK which is different issue) and bottles being thrown in 1970s (these are not allowed at grounds in rest of UK and no one is suggesting they are), just to point out that these issues are irrelvant.

[PaulSmith]

More worringly are the quotes from the Hamilton chairman, WTF!!

[down the slope]

Someone on here a while back confirmed that it made the old firm's chances of winning the title even harder when we had an eighteen team league, i tried to explain it in the boozer a while back and lost myself but no doubt there will be a mathematical genius on here in a flash to keep us right.

[--------]

QUOTE/Joe Baker II

Think lack of television income, prices, early kick off times and corresponding lack of reduced pricing at these games, and lack of limited standing areas far more of a problem than league structure (has never been perfect and given our population, never will be) although all but the latter are not unique to Scotland.

I think you're absolutely right - the clubs have never seen the supporters as customers to be encouraged or won over. Games kicking off at all sorts of odd times (never the same arrangements 2 years running, seems to me), the fact that you can't just walk up and pay at the gate any more at most grounds, the lack of standing areas, the inadequate catering (not just that you can't get a beer - you can't get decent reasonably priced snacks or food either), the way the police and stewards treat fans, as potential criminals rather than paying customers....

It's not exactly a hugely attractive way to spend a few hours - whatever time of day they've decided to hold the fixture.

Two unique problems we have which clubs do not seem to have vision to challenge (or at least give a lead raising the issue, particularly on the first point) from the article are;

Extent of coverage of football in coverage (we must be unique in having a state-terrestrial provider that prefers to cover another country's league on Saturday nights).

I think the SPL/SFL/SFA have to get their tiny minds around the fact that Sky, ESPN, and the terrestrial channels provide folks who enjoy football with lots to watch from the Premiership, from the Championship, from Italy, France, Spain, Germany, The Netherlands...

Which means they have to start giving proper attention to presentation, and they have to get on the backs of the morons at the MacBeeb and STV and make THEM get their act together. TV footie won't go away - somehow the Scottish game has to compete.

But you're absolutely right - this is a major part of the problem facing the Scottish clubs.

Lack of alcohol (which is most blatant problem since it does not apply in rest of UK where it works perfectly well - could easily be introduced with different arrangements for some high-risk games, would certainly help attract fans to away games and grounds where no pubs nearby). And before anyone mentions Manchester 2008 (nothing to do with alcohol on sale at ground, a lot to do with general availability of alcohol in UK which is different issue) and bottles being thrown in 1970s (these are not allowed at grounds in rest of UK and no one is suggesting they are), just to point out that these issues are irrelvant.

You DO realsie that selling limited quantities of light beer in a Scottish football stadium will mean the End Of Civilisation As We Know It?

Quicker than global warming?

Just so's you understand this. :wink:

[FraserHFC]

Someone on here a while back confirmed that it made the old firm's chances of winning the title even harder when we had an eighteen team league, i tried to explain it in the boozer a while back and lost myself but no doubt there will be a mathematical genius on here in a flash to keep us right.

Currently the other top 4 teams play the OF for 24 points in the league each season ( 4 times each = 8 games x 3 points = 24 points ) where as if the league was changed too an 18 team league and we only played them twice we'd only be playing them for 12 points a season ( 2 times each = 4 games x 3 points = 12 points ). So, assuming the top teams won most of their games against the new teams in the league, the gap would get shorter.

I think that makes sense :greengrin

[Hibs On Tour]

Scottish football will die on its arse no matter what way around you juggle the leagues until we face the harsh truth that there are FAR more clubs in Scottish football than we can even nearly begin to support. We need to lose a lot of clubs so that the remaining clubs can become sustainable. Anything else is to be honest just peeing in the wind.

Mind you, a few clubs going to the wall isn't perhaps the worst result for Scottish football after all? Natural wastage and all that.

Sad but true...

[Joe Baker II]

QUOTE/Joe Baker II


You DO realsie that selling limited quantities of light beer in a Scottish football stadium will mean the End Of Civilisation As We Know It?

Quicker than global warming?

Just so's you understand this. :wink:

Totally agree with your response, as you say some people's views (and this is fans not authorities) imply they genuinely to think like this!

[Joe Baker II]

QUOTE/Joe Baker II

Think lack of television income, prices, early kick off times and corresponding lack of reduced pricing at these games, and lack of limited standing areas far more of a problem than league structure (has never been perfect and given our population, never will be) although all but the latter are not unique to Scotland.

I think you're absolutely right - the clubs have never seen the supporters as customers to be encouraged or won over. Games kicking off at all sorts of odd times (never the same arrangements 2 years running, seems to me), the fact that you can't just walk up and pay at the gate any more at most grounds, the lack of standing areas, the inadequate catering (not just that you can't get a beer - you can't get decent reasonably priced snacks or food either), the way the police and stewards treat fans, as potential criminals rather than paying customers....

:[/B]

Example on catering pertinent to Hibs was that at focus group in 2007 Garry O'Hagan (same person who seems to be driving clubs reactionary line toward ofifcial/unofifcial stnading areas in Easter Road) responded to query on poor quality of food in East Stand "do you come to football to eat food?"

Does seem junior football takes more progressive view on everything esle you desribe though and Ross County was a good ground to go and ticked everything you describe so it can be done - problem is clubs do not seem even willing to take a lead in challenging status quo.

[fiolex1]

Have a 16 team premier league 30 games, re-introduce the league format for the league cup, groups of four "seeded" with home and away fixtures 6 games, bring in the teams in europe for the last 16.

That we keep everybody happy

[weonlywon6-2]

IMHO, the game in Scotland is going to die on it's erse unless action is taken sharpish to change things.

Whilst the split has thrown up some exciting finishes to the league in recent times, having the potential to play the same team 6 times a season (if you're drawn in both cups, more than that if it goes to a replay) is mind-numbing.

I'd happily take the OF once at Easter Road, and have just 2 derbies a season. For me it would make these games special again.

the game in scotland is desperate for a change.

extend the leagues and get partick,dundee,inverness,dunfy etc in as well.

it would make things more open instead of the fight to stop the other team playing game that happens just now

[sahib]

The league cup as a " league format " before the start of the season was fairly heavily criticised at the time. We seem to be going back to formats that were abandond for a reason. I am not saying they are worse than the current set up and I don't really care either way but thinking that a enlarged league will help crowds does not sqaure with my memories of that format.
I think the main problem for scottish football is the distribution of wealth. Short of rounding up a million or so old firm fans and "politically re-educating" them ( brainwashing) I don't think there is much that can be done.

[Hakim Sar]

Change will happen at some point. clubs will get an awfy fright next year when attentances plummet to a new low.

Aberdeen could be 7/8k
Hibs could be a struggle for over 10k
Hearts will lie and claim it was 17k
Dundee utd could be 6/7k
Celtic could be 30/40k
Rangers could be 40k
St. Hamiltonkilmarnockkirk could be about 1800 or so

then we are all donald ducked

[Gatecrasher]

a new league format is needed, the current system is a farce.

18 IMO is the way to go, it means losing 2 home games but if we were to lose 4 with a 16 team league they would need to knock about £100 off a ST to make up for the loss of games and that means less money for player wages, i dont like the idea of a league round for the league cup i would prefer a 2 leg semi final like England

[Keith_M]

The article seems to suggest that a larger league will help clubs cope with their dire finances.

I'm not saying I'm against changing the format but how exactly is it going to do that?

:confused:

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Example on catering pertinent to Hibs was that at focus group in 2007 Garry O'Hagan responded to query on poor quality of food in East Stand "do you come to football to eat food?"



Answer, well yes how else am I going to stop my bairns playing tig all the time and I have to unfold my arms now and again

:devil:

[Crazyhorse]

Change will happen at some point. clubs will get an awfy fright next year when attentances plummet to a new low.

Aberdeen could be 7/8k
Hibs could be a struggle for over 10k
Hearts will lie and claim it was 17k
Dundee utd could be 6/7k
Celtic could be 30/40k
Rangers could be 40k
St. Hamiltonkilmarnockkirk could be about 1800 or so

then we are all donald ducked

Scottish football might have slid too far down the slope already as you say. Certainly the prices are ridiculously high for what is on offer.

I would say however a 16 team league would improve things. What wasn't tried in this kind of league in the past was play offs to keep things interesting to the last week. 16 teams with bottom 2 relegated and 13th and 14th play off for 3rd relegation spot. At the top the final promotion place should also involve a playoff between 4 teams. Say 4 teams get into Europe then 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th play off for the final spot. Practically the whole league would be playing for something up until the last few games I reckon.

[Steve-O]

Why does this issue always come down the amount of OF games being reduced? There has barely been a decent OF game since about 2001! They are pish and I refuse to believe that people down south watch those games any more than they do any other SPL games.

[Steve-O]

Example on catering pertinent to Hibs was that at focus group in 2007 Garry O'Hagan (same person who seems to be driving clubs reactionary line toward ofifcial/unofifcial stnading areas in Easter Road) responded to query on poor quality of food in East Stand "do you come to football to eat food?"

Does seem junior football takes more progressive view on everything esle you desribe though and Ross County was a good ground to go and ticked everything you describe so it can be done - problem is clubs do not seem even willing to take a lead in challenging status quo.

I'm actually finding it more enjoyable watching the A-League than the SPL to be honest.

Here, we can get a beer at the game, stand at the game, teams play each other 3 times per season so it's at least better than 4 times and you don't get too bored of the same teams coming all the time.

Also, the club is often actively involved in the community and have meet and greet sessions with the players in the city centre on the Friday before games etc.

It's just a more encouraging situation all round and you get the impression that the club does actually care about the fans. Can't really say the same in the SPL a lot of the time.

[Phil D. Rolls]

"We can't go on paying salaries that the clubs just can't afford. Income must become relative to clubs' expenditure.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for these clubs? They made their beds, they can die in them.


IMHO, the game in Scotland is going to die on it's erse unless action is taken sharpish to change things.


The game already is dead. I think the healthiest thing would be to clear away the carcasses of clubs that tried approaches that failed, and try and build something out of what's left.

If the rest of business was able to follow football's rules, we'd still be able to eat Fry's Five Boys, and drive cars built at Linwood. The failures (Hearts, Livingston, Motherwell etc) who lived beyond their means can't be bailed out again.



Lack of alcohol (which is most blatant problem since it does not apply in rest of UK where it works perfectly well - could easily be introduced with different arrangements for some high-risk games, would certainly help attract fans to away games and grounds where no pubs nearby). And before anyone mentions Manchester 2008 (nothing to do with alcohol on sale at ground, a lot to do with general availability of alcohol in UK which is different issue) and bottles being thrown in 1970s (these are not allowed at grounds in rest of UK and no one is suggesting they are), just to point out that these issues are irrelvant.

In the 70s you could take as much alcohol into the game as you wanted, and attendances were often half what they are nowadays. I'm not sure that it is that influential on most people's decision about going to the match. A lot of people drive to games, and take their families now.

I'm not saying I'm against selling beer at the ground, but I just don't believe it will make that much difference to attendances.

[The Old Brigade]

Are we supposed to feel sorry for these clubs? They made their beds, they can die in them.

The game already is dead. I think the healthiest thing would be to clear away the carcasses of clubs that tried approaches that failed, and try and build something out of what's left.

In the 70s you could take as much alcohol into the game as you wanted, and attendances were often half what they are nowadays. I'm not sure that it is that influential on most people's decision about going to the match. A lot of people drive to games, and take their families now.

I'm not saying I'm against selling beer at the ground, but I just don't believe it will make that much difference to attendances.

Consolation is people have being saying Scottish football dying for years and it never has, so do not think this time will be any different.

No one is saying anyone will be taking alcohol into ground, it should be sold in ground, (I realise you know this). And think it will make some difference to crowds if controlled properly, though it is not be all and all.

Finally, are you sure about letting clubs die - do not think many Hibs fans were saying this in 1990. And do not think more than 1% of Hibs fans genuinely wanted Celtic to die in 1993-4 or Hearts at end of Pieman era (realise some will respond otherwise!) to die in recent years, let alone clubs like Livingston, Airdrie and Dundee.

[The Old Brigade]

I'm actually finding it more enjoyable watching the A-League than the SPL to be honest.

Here, we can get a beer at the game, stand at the game, teams play each other 3 times per season so it's at least better than 4 times and you don't get too bored of the same teams coming all the time.

Also, the club is often actively involved in the community and have meet and greet sessions with the players in the city centre on the Friday before games etc.

It's just a more encouraging situation all round and you get the impression that the club does actually care about the fans. Can't really say the same in the SPL a lot of the time.

Sadly I am sure you are absolutely right about NZ, some will defend clubs by saying they are disctated to by police/councils/authorities but really depressing thing is that one never gets the impression they are doing their utmost for it to be otherwise.

[The Old Brigade]

Scottish football will die on its arse no matter what way around you juggle the leagues until we face the harsh truth that there are FAR more clubs in Scottish football than we can even nearly begin to support. We need to lose a lot of clubs so that the remaining clubs can become sustainable. Anything else is to be honest just peeing in the wind.

Mind you, a few clubs going to the wall isn't perhaps the worst result for Scottish football after all? Natural wastage and all that.

Sad but true...

How will this help though, the fans of any club that goes bust will not go elsewhere and will be lost to the game. A more flexible league structure would help get struggling clubs down a level though , part of problem is that junior teams emphatically do not want to join Scottish leagues and given as posted above, they have more idea on how to look after their fans, one can hardly blame them.

[Earl of Currie]

How feasible is it for the SPL to form a larger organisation in Scottish Football ?
If they were good enough to start one league , then why not 2 or 3 ?
Essentially they ( the SPL , if not the OF) control the largest bucket of cash, media attention, etc. If they were to open up to 3 leagues of 16 for example they could take the lead in how Scottish Football is structured, rather than waiting for the results of the Mcleish report and the subsequent ensuing SFA/SFL/SJFA/SPL bun-fight.

A hypathetical exmaple is for the existing SPL teams to invite the top 4 teams from the current 1st Division into the SPL , forming the top tier.
Then almost by way of a tender system open up the remaing 32 places to the best offers. This will include existing senior clubs, but will also include Junior clubs , possible merged clubs and could possibly include the earlier discussed options of reserve teams from the existing SPL clubs.

The tenders would be based upon criteria including financial capability, existing stadium, league history,etc. Based upon a ratings system the leagues would then be created from the 32 best applicants.

This would then create a more realistic/sustainable league set-up for Scottish football. Below that then there would be a set up based upon regional football leagues.

This would make the SPL the main governing body in Scottish football , but it would also force the hands of the other bodies who are more interested in self preservation.