Real Radio tonight Interesting topic

[Lmc2105]

Neil Doncaster on the Real Radio Phone in

Interesting guy i have to say defo wants change and have seems to listen to the fans

just thought a would bring it up:thumbsup:

[WindyMiller]

Neil Doncaster on the Real Radio Phone in

Interesting guy i have to say defo wants change and have seems to listen to the fans

just thought a would bring it up:thumbsup:

Not his decision though.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/8621071.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/8621071.stm)

[Gatecrasher]

Neil Doncaster on the Real Radio Phone in

Interesting guy i have to say defo wants change and have seems to listen to the fans

just thought a would bring it up:thumbsup:

Yeah he seems a decent guy and looks like he wants to fresh things up a bit as well, i hope he's not all talk because he seems to say the right things :agree:

[Lmc2105]

Not his decision though.
[/URL][url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/8621071.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/8621071.stm)


yeah he just said that but hopefully the clubs will see sense especially us as we are in the process of building a new stand and unless there is change i don't think will will get more than 20,000 unless maybe go to a 16 18 team league it would attract more people as i think people get bored playing teams 3 4 times a season

[ScottB]

I'm curious as to who is against the split really, wonder if that will leak out...

11 to 1 seems a ridiculous system, surely 7 to 5 should be sufficient?

[Lmc2105]

I'm curious as to who is against the split really, wonder if that will leak out...

11 to 1 seems a ridiculous system, surely 7 to 5 should be sufficient?

yup i would be curious to (sorry just read your bit and i mean i think these are the teams that want the split to Continue god am daft :doh:
to be honest i think the teams like us Dundee utd and hearts could be the teams that appose it for obv reasons

but i hope that the clubs would come out and explain to us why they won't do it

an 18 team league would be fantastic with a whole lot more entertainment and i think would put bums on seats

[TheEastTerrace]

What really gets me about this restructure debate is that the league could be 2, 10, 12, 16, 18, 20 teams in size but guaranteed we'll be back moaning about the new structure a few years down the track.

You know why? It ain't got anything to do with the size of the league, it's down to the sheer lack of footballing quality and entertainment on offer in the SPL and it wouldn't matter how many teams you had, the harsh bottom line is that this country's top league is fast becoming a backwater of European football. I mean, how is having the likes of Queen of the South, Partick and Raith in the league going to suddenly equate to the masses coming back to the game? if anything, it would be worse! Hibs vs Raith at ER in the middle of winter, at current prices, aye that will be right.

There needs to be a radical assessment of Scottish football, and by that token I don't mean your Henry McLeish think tanks by the way or bringing a few more teams to the SPL. I mean proper wholesale change starting with the SFA and the removal of the blazer brigade and self-indulgent crackpots, to be replaced with administrators who seek to reform this country's game right from the grassroots level up to to the professional level.

The traditionalists will stamp up and down and moan, but I also think summer football for the SPL is a fantastic opportunity for this country, both in sporting and financial terms, particularly when we can't sell our TV rights for love nor money when competing with the big European league seasons, and the standard of football pitches in this country have been shown to be hugely detrimental to the quality of football on offer. And before anyone mentions summer World Cup and Euros tournaments, when was the last time Scotland qualified for a major tournament, or more to the point, look ever likely do so in the near future?

Also, at the end of the day, what benefits will actually result for Hibs? Yes, we won't play the same teams four times a season anymore. We won't have this bloody split at the end of 33 games. We also won't be subjected to the sectarian drivvel of the OF 8 times a season. And it might be a bit fun for a while visiting new grounds around the country.But you know what, that will all count for bugger all when the title will endlessly continue to sit in either one of the OF's trophy cabinet at the end of each season.

A bit of a rant, but seriously, changing the league structure will make no odds in the long run. This country's game is dying, quickly, and it needs sorted now.

[Westie1875]

yup i would be curious to (sorry just read your bit and i mean i think these are the teams that want the split to Continue god am daft :doh:
to be honest i think the teams like us Dundee utd and hearts could be the teams that appose it for obv reasons

but i hope that the clubs would come out and explain to us why they won't do it

an 18 team league would be fantastic with a whole lot more entertainment and i think would put bums on seats

What would they be?

Surely the smaller teams are the ones more likely to oppose it as they rely more in the income from the games against the OF?

[Lmc2105]

What would they be?

Surely the smaller teams are the ones more likely to oppose it as they rely more in the income from the games against the OF?

yeah ano the smaller teams aswell but in the event of it they are hardly going to make the top 6 so there fore the games against the OF wouldn't be much but Utd have came out and said they like the split but knowing Petrie for money reasons only that's why he would want to keep the split.

i just find it boring and a bit repetitive

but yeah a do see where you are coming from with regards to the lower teams

[H18sry]

What really gets me about this restructure debate is that the league could be 2, 10, 12, 16, 18, 20 teams in size but guaranteed we'll be back moaning about the new structure a few years down the track.

You know why? It ain't got anything to do with the size of the league, it's down to the sheer lack of footballing quality and entertainment on offer in the SPL and it wouldn't matter how many teams you had, the harsh bottom line is that this country's top league is fast becoming a backwater of European football. I mean, how is having the likes of Queen of the South, Partick and Raith in the league going to suddenly equate to the masses coming back to the game? if anything, it would be worse! Hibs vs Raith at ER in the middle of winter, at current prices, aye that will be right.

There needs to be a radical assessment of Scottish football, and by that token I don't mean your Henry McLeish think tanks by the way or bringing a few more teams to the SPL. I mean proper wholesale change starting with the SFA and the removal of the blazer brigade and self-indulgent crackpots, to be replaced with administrators who seek to reform this country's game right from the grassroots level up to to the professional level.

The traditionalists will stamp up and down and moan, but I also think summer football for the SPL is a fantastic opportunity for this country, both in sporting and financial terms, particularly when we can't sell our TV rights for love nor money when competing with the big European league seasons, and the standard of football pitches in this country have been shown to be hugely detrimental to the quality of football on offer. And before anyone mentions summer World Cup and Euros tournaments, when was the last time Scotland qualified for a major tournament, or more to the point, look ever likely do so in the near future?

Also, at the end of the day, what benefits will actually result for Hibs? Yes, we won't play the same teams four times a season anymore. We won't have this bloody split at the end of 33 games. We also won't be subjected to the sectarian drivvel of the OF 8 times a season. And it might be a bit fun for a while visiting new grounds around the country.But you know what, that will all count for bugger all when the title will endlessly continue to sit in either one of the OF's trophy cabinet at the end of each season.

A bit of a rant, but seriously, changing the league structure will make no odds in the long run. This country's game is dying, quickly, and it needs sorted now.

I disagree with what I have highlighted re the infirm, at the moment we can win or lose 24 points a season from them, more often than not we get no more than 3 point a season from each of them so realistically the have an 9 point start on us, and you could count this for every other team out with the old firm, if we revert to a 18 team league we only have 12 points a season to play for therefore when the leagues are decided at the end of the season you will not get the infirm running away with it by 18-26 point margins that usually happens, very few seasons do we have teams closer than that.

Check the stats for yourself http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=home_statistics So to conclude if we had an eighteen team league and there are only 6 point to play for league tables would be closer all the way down the table, games would be more exciting, bring in play-off for relegation with the bottom team going down and being replaced by the top off div 1 then 4th plays 3rd with the winner plaing 2nd and the winner of that plays the 2nd bottom SPL team to decide who stays up/gets promoted.

[H18sry]

What would they be?

Surely the smaller teams are the ones more likely to oppose it as they rely more in the income from the games against the OF?

That was the case when gate money was split, now you keep your own gate money there is not as much money changing hands, on the other side your policing cost would drop aswell :devil:

[greenlex]

I disagree with what I have highlighted re the infirm, at the moment we can win or lose 24 points a season from them, more often than not we get no more than 3 point a season from each of them so realistically the have an 9 point start on us, and you could count this for every other team out with the old firm, if we revert to a 18 team league we only have 12 points a season to play for therefore when the leagues are decided at the end of the season you will not get the infirm running away with it by 18-26 point margins that usually happens, very few seasons do we have teams closer than that.

Check the stats for yourself http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=home_statistics So to conclude if we had an eighteen team league and there are only 6 point to play for league tables would be closer all the way down the table, games would be more exciting, bring in play-off for relegation with the bottom team going down and being replaced by the top off div 1 then 4th plays 3rd with the winner plaing 2nd and the winner of that plays the 2nd bottom SPL team to decide who stays up/gets promoted.
Would reverting back to only 2 points for a win help? Since we went to 3 points the leagues have never been close regards the Old Firm pulling away. Could the rest get closer? Anyone care to do the stats with this for the last few seasons?

[blackpoolhibs]

How about a 16 team league, 30 league games, 15 home 15 away. The bottom 2 are relegated, 3rd and 4th bottom go into a play off with 3rd and 4th in the 1st division.

It would make most games have something to play for, the bottom 4 maybe 6 clubs would be fighting against the drop, and maybe the 5th 4th and 3rd fighting for Europe. Hopefully it would end the meaningless games we have now. Add a the league sections for the league cup, and you are getting up towards 36 games, depending on how many teams are in the section.

[TheEastTerrace]

I disagree with what I have highlighted re the infirm, at the moment we can win or lose 24 points a season from them, more often than not we get no more than 3 point a season from each of them so realistically the have an 9 point start on us, and you could count this for every other team out with the old firm, if we revert to a 18 team league we only have 12 points a season to play for therefore when the leagues are decided at the end of the season you will not get the infirm running away with it by 18-26 point margins that usually happens, very few seasons do we have teams closer than that.

Check the stats for yourself http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=home_statistics So to conclude if we had an eighteen team league and there are only 6 point to play for league tables would be closer all the way down the table, games would be more exciting, bring in play-off for relegation with the bottom team going down and being replaced by the top off div 1 then 4th plays 3rd with the winner plaing 2nd and the winner of that plays the 2nd bottom SPL team to decide who stays up/gets promoted.

I don't disagree with your point in theory, but let me counter. Between 1893 and 1975, before the Scottish Premier Division and the SPL were formed, and during this period when the top league carried a larger number of teams than 12, Rangers or Celtic did not win the league on only a total of 12 seasons. Since 1975, only on four different occasions has the top league in Scotland been won by a club outside of the OF.

Therefore, between 1893 and 2010, 117 years in total, only on 16 occasions did a non OF club win the top league.

My point is that all the calculations and permutations about points totals and possible play-offs/title deciders/relegation battles are immaterial because in 9/10 seasons, regardless of league size or structure, Rangers or Celtic have won the league.

My issue is with the quality of football in Scottish football and I genuinely don't believe it's about league restructure. It's about addressing other issues that I've referred to.

[Tommy Millar]

People who are asking for an expanded league in terms of teams must generally be from the younger side of the age spectrum. They surely do not remember the huge number of meaningless fixtures played out in front of crowds of 4,000.

Summer Football would help. It might just bring in a new audience, especially if marketed properly. How many foreign visitors are there to Edinburgh each weekend over the summer?

I also now believe that live televised football is killing the game as we know it. Because of the kick off times, I am now only able to make the Derby out of our five remaining games. SKY and ESPN must realise that they are in danger of overkill.

I have only had the luxury of SKY for 5 months myself and I have to say that I love their coverage but I can now fully understand why people would think twice about coming out of their house and making the effort to go to a live match, even with a Season Ticket.

The complaints over the split are only a smokescreen for the real problems. Until the powers that be put the fans who actually go to the games at the centre of the future restructuring of the game then football in Scotland will continue to decline in quality.

[Jonnyboy]

People who are asking for an expanded league in terms of teams must generally be from the younger side of the age spectrum. They surely do not remember the huge number of meaningless fixtures played out in front of crowds of 4,000.

Summer Football would help. It might just bring in a new audience, especially if marketed properly. How many foreign visitors are there to Edinburgh each weekend over the summer?

I also now believe that live televised football is killing the game as we know it. Because of the kick off times, I am now only able to make the Derby out of our five remaining games. SKY and ESPN must realise that they are in danger of overkill.

I have only had the luxury of SKY for 5 months myself and I have to say that I love their coverage but I can now fully understand why people would think twice about coming out of their house and making the effort to go to a live match, even with a Season Ticket.

The complaints over the split are only a smokescreen for the real problems. Until the powers that be put the fans who actually go to the games at the centre of the future restructuring of the game then football in Scotland will continue to decline in quality.

:agree: :top marks

[NAE NOOKIE]

16 Team league.

30 games

Split to 2 leagues of 8 = 14 matches

Total games = 44 ....... 22 home ... 22 away

Bottom 2 relegated by right and 3rd bottom in play off with 3rd top of 1st division.

With this system the big clubs would probably still play each other at least twice each at home, but without the unfairness caused by the current split system.

It would mean a lot of games for clubs who are in Europe, but players for the big English clubs have to do that every year.

Hibs
Hearts
Celtic
Rangers
Aberdeen
Dundee Utd
Motherwell
St Johnstone
Hamilton
St Mirren
Falkirk
Kilmarnock
I.C.T
Dundee
Dunfermline
Ross County

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Summer football for me :agree:

[hibbymac]

People who are asking for an expanded league in terms of teams must generally be from the younger side of the age spectrum. They surely do not remember the huge number of meaningless fixtures played out in front of crowds of 4,000.

Summer Football would help. It might just bring in a new audience, especially if marketed properly. How many foreign visitors are there to Edinburgh each weekend over the summer?

I also now believe that live televised football is killing the game as we know it. Because of the kick off times, I am now only able to make the Derby out of our five remaining games. SKY and ESPN must realise that they are in danger of overkill.

I have only had the luxury of SKY for 5 months myself and I have to say that I love their coverage but I can now fully understand why people would think twice about coming out of their house and making the effort to go to a live match, even with a Season Ticket.

The complaints over the split are only a smokescreen for the real problems. Until the powers that be put the fans who actually go to the games at the centre of the future restructuring of the game then football in Scotland will continue to decline in quality.


That to me is the biggest factor which is ruining the game.

Saturday 3.00pm kick offs, you knew not to arrange anything for the Saturday "coz ye'd huv the fitba".

Usually the most of the time anybody missed a match was they were at some inconsiderate mate/ brother/ sisters wedding. :grr:

Saturday 3.00pm, ... when fitba should be played. :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

Would reverting back to only 2 points for a win help? Since we went to 3 points the leagues have never been close regards the Old Firm pulling away. Could the rest get closer? Anyone care to do the stats with this for the last few seasons?

For last season, if teams got two points for a win, the league would have been (actual points total in brackets);

Rangers-60 (86)
Celtic-58 (82)
Hearts-43 (59)
Dundee Utd-40 (53)
Aberdeen-39 (53)
Hibernian-36 (47)
Motherwell-35 (48)
Kilmarnock-32 (44)
Hamilton-29 (41)
Falkirk-29 (38)
St Mirren-28 (37)
Inverness-27 (37)

The only difference that two points for a win would have made last year is that Dundee Utd would have finished 4th at the expense of Aberdeen.

In 2007/08 it would have been;

Celtic-61 (89)
Rangers-59 (86)
Motherwell-42 (60)
Aberdeen-38 (53)
Dundee Utd-38 (52)
Hibernian-38 (52)
Falkirk-36 (49)
Hearts-35 (48)
St Mirren-31 (41)
Inverness-30 (43)
Kilmarnock-30 (40)
Gretna-8* (13*)

*Gretna deducted 10 points.

The only difference would have been St Mirren finishing above Inverness in 9th place.

In 2006/07 it would have been;

Celtic-58 (84)
Rangers-51 (72)
Aberdeen-46 (65)
Hearts-44 (61)
Kilmarnock-39 (55)
Hibernian-36 (49)
Falkirk-35 (50)
Inverness-35 (46)
Dundee Utd-32 (42)
Motherwell-28 (38)
St Mirren-28 (36)
Dunfermline-24 (32)

No changes to actual table.

Hope all of the above is helpful.

[KeithTheHibby]

How about a 16 team league, 30 league games, 15 home 15 away. The bottom 2 are relegated, 3rd and 4th bottom go into a play off with 3rd and 4th in the 1st division.

It would make most games have something to play for, the bottom 4 maybe 6 clubs would be fighting against the drop, and maybe the 5th 4th and 3rd fighting for Europe. Hopefully it would end the meaningless games we have now. Add a the league sections for the league cup, and you are getting up towards 36 games, depending on how many teams are in the section.

With the reduced number of league games we could revamp the league cup, another competition which has been dying on it's feet for a few years.

It is before my time but I am sure the LC consisted of mini groups?

[Removed]

People who are asking for an expanded league in terms of teams must generally be from the younger side of the age spectrum. They surely do not remember the huge number of meaningless fixtures played out in front of crowds of 4,000.

Summer Football would help. It might just bring in a new audience, especially if marketed properly. How many foreign visitors are there to Edinburgh each weekend over the summer?

I also now believe that live televised football is killing the game as we know it. Because of the kick off times, I am now only able to make the Derby out of our five remaining games. SKY and ESPN must realise that they are in danger of overkill.

I have only had the luxury of SKY for 5 months myself and I have to say that I love their coverage but I can now fully understand why people would think twice about coming out of their house and making the effort to go to a live match, even with a Season Ticket.

The complaints over the split are only a smokescreen for the real problems. Until the powers that be put the fans who actually go to the games at the centre of the future restructuring of the game then football in Scotland will continue to decline in quality.


That to me is the biggest factor which is ruining the game.

Saturday 3.00pm kick offs, you knew not to arrange anything for the Saturday "coz ye'd huv the fitba".

Usually the most of the time anybody missed a match was they were at some inconsiderate mate/ brother/ sisters wedding. :grr:

Saturday 3.00pm, ... when fitba should be played. :greengrin

:agree: That's why I will never give them my money. I am sick of games being re-scheduled to ridiculous times for Sky/ESPN. We've had Saturdays & Sundays at 12:15 and now Motherwell on a Thursday night ffs.

And I had a right argument with 4 guys at work today going out about how brilliant 3d football will be. I said I watch it in 3d every week and these arse holes were saying aye but it'll be better in 3d on the telly :grr: No wonder crowds are down. IMO they should only be allowed to show a match on TV if the ground will be full.

[blackpoolhibs]

With the reduced number of league games we could revamp the league cup, another competition which has been dying on it's feet for a few years.

It is before my time but I am sure the LC consisted of mini groups?

Yes it did used to be in league sections. If my memory serves me right, there were sections of 4 teams, the top 2 went through to knockout stages. If they did it that way again, with home and away ties, that would give everyone in the SPL another 6 games.

As i said earlier, having a 16 team league would give you 30 league games, and having more relegation places, would give us more competitions at the bottom, middle and top. Excitment, and competition bring more people through the doors.

[Barney McGrew]

As i said earlier, having a 16 team league would give you 30 league games, and having more relegation places, would give us more competitions at the bottom, middle and top. Excitment, and competition bring more people through the doors.

It would be better, but it's very unlikely to happen because I can't see any of the current SPL clubs voting for it..

At the moment, SPL clubs get either 18,19 or 20 home games a season and that proposal would drop it to 15. For the OF, Hibs, Them and Aberdeen it would mean a substantial drop in income from those games.

For the 'smaller' clubs who periennially finish in the bottom six, it would mean one less home game against the OF (they get three at moment, and miss out on the fourth after the split) which is a far bigger crowd and TV revenue. They'll also be happy with the current system where only one club goes down.

For those reasons, I can't see any of them voting for it. The 11-1 voting system means it would be practically impossible to get it through

[blackpoolhibs]

It would be better, but it's very unlikely to happen because I can't see any of the current SPL clubs voting for it..

At the moment, SPL clubs get either 18,19 or 20 home games a season and that proposal would drop it to 15. For the OF, Hibs, Them and Aberdeen it would mean a substantial drop in income from those games.

For the 'smaller' clubs who periennially finish in the bottom six, it would mean one less home game against the OF (they get three at moment, and miss out on the fourth after the split) which is a far bigger crowd and TV revenue. They'll also be happy with the current system where only one club goes down.

For those reasons, I can't see any of them voting for it. The 11-1 voting system means it would be practically impossible to get it through

I agree it would be very difficult to get through, and the clubs would lose around 4 home games. But it is about the bigger picture, and bringing more competition, raising the standards. I have no idea on other clubs, but have seen it at Hibs, when we were in relegation battles, crowds went up, our travelling support doubled maybe even more sometimes. Every position in the league would more than likely give a reward. Would it work, i dont know? I do know we need change, and we need more competition.

[StevieC]

11 to 1 seems a ridiculous system, surely 7 to 5 should be sufficient?

It's a system that was put in place to prevent other teams from doing something the Old Firm didn't like!

Pure and simple!

:grr:

[blackpoolhibs]

It's a system that was put in place to prevent other teams from doing something the Old Firm didn't like!

Pure and simple!

:grr:

:agree: What's unbelievable is how they managed to get this implemented?:confused:

[GlesgaeHibby]

I'm still yet to here a logical argument against summer football.

Anybody faced with the choice of:

A) Going to a game on a warm summers afternoon with the pitches in good condition, and the chance to see nice passing football

B) Going on a freezing cold winters day, sitting unable to feel your toes, watching football to make your eyes bleed on some mudbath that is masquerading as a pitch.

would surely pick A)

[Gingertosser]

wasn't the voting structure changed after the non OF clubs threatened to resign from the SPL :confused:

backtracking was the worst mistake ever, imagine how good it would be without that shower :grr:

[greenlex]

For last season, if teams got two points for a win, the league would have been (actual points total in brackets);

Rangers-60 (86)
Celtic-58 (82)
Hearts-43 (59)
Dundee Utd-40 (53)
Aberdeen-39 (53)
Hibernian-36 (47)
Motherwell-35 (48)
Kilmarnock-32 (44)
Hamilton-29 (41)
Falkirk-29 (38)
St Mirren-28 (37)
Inverness-27 (37)

The only difference that two points for a win would have made last year is that Dundee Utd would have finished 4th at the expense of Aberdeen.

In 2007/08 it would have been;

Celtic-61 (89)
Rangers-59 (86)
Motherwell-42 (60)
Aberdeen-38 (53)
Dundee Utd-38 (52)
Hibernian-38 (52)
Falkirk-36 (49)
Hearts-35 (48)
St Mirren-31 (41)
Inverness-30 (43)
Kilmarnock-30 (40)
Gretna-8* (13*)

*Gretna deducted 10 points.

The only difference would have been St Mirren finishing above Inverness in 9th place.

In 2006/07 it would have been;

Celtic-58 (84)
Rangers-51 (72)
Aberdeen-46 (65)
Hearts-44 (61)
Kilmarnock-39 (55)
Hibernian-36 (49)
Falkirk-35 (50)
Inverness-35 (46)
Dundee Utd-32 (42)
Motherwell-28 (38)
St Mirren-28 (36)
Dunfermline-24 (32)

No changes to actual table.

Hope all of the above is helpful.
I guess that theory is blown out the water. :greengrin

[TheEastTerrace]

I'm still yet to here a logical argument against summer football.

Anybody faced with the choice of:

A) Going to a game on a warm summers afternoon with the pitches in good condition, and the chance to see nice passing football

B) Going on a freezing cold winters day, sitting unable to feel your toes, watching football to make your eyes bleed on some mudbath that is masquerading as a pitch.

would surely pick A)

Exactly mate, I just can't believe it's been so easily dismissed as a viable opportunity.

[Gatecrasher]

I'm still yet to here a logical argument against summer football.

Anybody faced with the choice of:

A) Going to a game on a warm summers afternoon with the pitches in good condition, and the chance to see nice passing football

B) Going on a freezing cold winters day, sitting unable to feel your toes, watching football to make your eyes bleed on some mudbath that is masquerading as a pitch.

would surely pick A)


aye but people want to go to concerts and holidays :wink:

[1875 NO 1]

16 Team league.

30 games

Split to 2 leagues of 8 = 14 matches

Total games = 44 ....... 22 home ... 22 away

Bottom 2 relegated by right and 3rd bottom in play off with 3rd top of 1st division.

With this system the big clubs would probably still play each other at least twice each at home, but without the unfairness caused by the current split system.

It would mean a lot of games for clubs who are in Europe, but players for the big English clubs have to do that every year.

Hibs
Hearts
Celtic
Rangers
Aberdeen
Dundee Utd
Motherwell
St Johnstone
Hamilton
St Mirren
Falkirk
Kilmarnock
I.C.T
Dundee
Dunfermline
Ross County

Keep 12 team league.

Play home and away, then top 8 play home and away for league and europe. Bottom four play home and away against the top four in the 1st division. The teams that finish in the top 4 join the SPL the other 4 join the 1st division.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Cannot really grasp this meaningless games question. Surely every league with more than about ten teams will have meaningless games at the end of a season?

[1875 NO 1]

What really gets me about this restructure debate is that the league could be 2, 10, 12, 16, 18, 20 teams in size but guaranteed we'll be back moaning about the new structure a few years down the track.

You know why? It ain't got anything to do with the size of the league, it's down to the sheer lack of footballing quality and entertainment on offer in the SPL and it wouldn't matter how many teams you had, the harsh bottom line is that this country's top league is fast becoming a backwater of European football. I mean, how is having the likes of Queen of the South, Partick and Raith in the league going to suddenly equate to the masses coming back to the game? if anything, it would be worse! Hibs vs Raith at ER in the middle of winter, at current prices, aye that will be right.

There needs to be a radical assessment of Scottish football, and by that token I don't mean your Henry McLeish think tanks by the way or bringing a few more teams to the SPL. I mean proper wholesale change starting with the SFA and the removal of the blazer brigade and self-indulgent crackpots, to be replaced with administrators who seek to reform this country's game right from the grassroots level up to to the professional level.

The traditionalists will stamp up and down and moan, but I also think summer football for the SPL is a fantastic opportunity for this country, both in sporting and financial terms, particularly when we can't sell our TV rights for love nor money when competing with the big European league seasons, and the standard of football pitches in this country have been shown to be hugely detrimental to the quality of football on offer. And before anyone mentions summer World Cup and Euros tournaments, when was the last time Scotland qualified for a major tournament, or more to the point, look ever likely do so in the near future?

Also, at the end of the day, what benefits will actually result for Hibs? Yes, we won't play the same teams four times a season anymore. We won't have this bloody split at the end of 33 games. We also won't be subjected to the sectarian drivvel of the OF 8 times a season. And it might be a bit fun for a while visiting new grounds around the country.But you know what, that will all count for bugger all when the title will endlessly continue to sit in either one of the OF's trophy cabinet at the end of each season.

A bit of a rant, but seriously, changing the league structure will make no odds in the long run. This country's game is dying, quickly, and it needs sorted now.

Spot on mate. Can't believe how many people I speak with are hacked on with football and Hibs in general.

Hibs is run by accountants and so is Scottish Football in general. It is upto supporters groups from all over Scotland to get together and demand change and let their voice be heard. There is only one thing that will get thier attention - money! Hit the clubs in the pocket by not attending games until the listen to the punters.

Without punters there is no football clubs.

[Franck is God]

16 team league and a switch to summer football for me.

30 league games is enough considering we also have two national cup competitions when most countries only have one.

Summer footie might help our teams in Europe as we'd be half way through our season when the qualifiers start rather than still in pre-season or after a couple of games.

The combination of the two could lead to higher attendances due to better weather and the fact that we'll only play all these sides once at home each season.

I also think that a better TV deal could be available in the summer, think that the likes of Sky may feel that SPL summer football is more of a draw than Masters indoor....

[Woody1985]

:agree: That's why I will never give them my money. I am sick of games being re-scheduled to ridiculous times for Sky/ESPN. We've had Saturdays & Sundays at 12:15 and now Motherwell on a Thursday night ffs.

And I had a right argument with 4 guys at work today going out about how brilliant 3d football will be. I said I watch it in 3d every week and these arse holes were saying aye but it'll be better in 3d on the telly :grr: No wonder crowds are down. IMO they should only be allowed to show a match on TV if the ground will be full.

Whilst I think this is a great idea in principle it is completely impracticle.

An extreme example would be Juve in their old olympic stadium, 70k seater with 10-15k fans turning up each week.

[TheEastTerrace]

16 team league and a switch to summer football for me.

30 league games is enough considering we also have two national cup competitions when most countries only have one.

Summer footie might help our teams in Europe as we'd be half way through our season when the qualifiers start rather than still in pre-season or after a couple of games.

The combination of the two could lead to higher attendances due to better weather and the fact that we'll only play all these sides once at home each season.

I also think that a better TV deal could be available in the summer, think that the likes of Sky may feel that SPL summer football is more of a draw than Masters indoor....

I think so too. Aside from the Super League (which ironically was also moved from winter to summer months), and Test/County Cricket, Sky has the likes of Speedway, Greyhound racing, etc in its schedule over the summer. Surely an opportunity for the SPL if it was also marketed more effectively and each game was made to feel an event. Certainly not going to get a good TV rights deal competing against the top 5 European leagues for schedule time.