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Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 10:46 AM
If we finish fourth, we'll have games in July. We'd have 3 ties to get through before the group stages.

Third place and we'd have 2 ties.

(The Cup winners go straight into the final play off round so these could change depending on the finalists.)

We have zero chance of winning the Europa Cup and little hope of getting to the group stages.

So, apart from a jolly for the few fans who can afford to go to Azerbaijan or Hercegovina or wherever, what's the big deal for the club?

I want Hibs to finish as high up the league as possible, but should we really be getting excited about European qualification?

:dunno:

CropleyWasGod
28-03-2010, 10:51 AM
Only those with a wee team mentality would ask such a question.:greengrin

To answer it, though, money and kudos.

blackpoolhibs
28-03-2010, 10:51 AM
Personally for me its the jolly up, hopefully a couple of them. It also means we are getting better, as to qualify for europe, the team have to win more than they lose.:wink:

Europe means the club is doing better than recent seasons, so a jolly up and progress. Everything i look for in supporting Hibs.

Danderhall Hibs
28-03-2010, 10:53 AM
I want Hibs to finish as high up the league as possible, but should we really be getting excited about European qualification?

:dunno:

I said something last year along the lines of the race to qualification for Europe is just a race to humiliation.

There'll be 3 non-OF teams playing against teams we've never heard of in July and at least one of them will take a pumping - more likely 2 out of the 3, especially if Raith or Ross County make the Cup Final.

Danderhall Hibs
28-03-2010, 10:56 AM
To answer it, though, money and kudos.

If you have to play the inter-toto rounds you struggle to break-even. I think I read that Motherwell were making a loss this year until they drew Steau Bucharest - they had to cut costs by travelling to London by bus to catch the flight to Azerbaijan (or wherever).

Kudos is also knackered after you lose 1-0 to Llanelli.

The_Todd
28-03-2010, 10:57 AM
It's nice to get competitive matches against someone other than the usual 11 suspects we play at least 3 times a season, breaks up the monotony a bit.

Depending on who we play, a great night under the floodlights against decent opposition. Ok, we'll likely get humped but it's still an experience for us and the players.

blackpoolhibs
28-03-2010, 10:58 AM
If you have to play the inter-toto rounds you struggle to break-even. I think I read that Motherwell were making a loss this year until they drew Steau Bucharest - they had to cut costs by travelling to London by bus to catch the flight to Azerbaijan (or wherever).

Kudos is also knackered after you lose 1-0 to Llanelli.

So whats the point in bothering?:confused:

Craig_in_Prague
28-03-2010, 10:59 AM
I thought 3rd place meant 1 tie, and 4th place 2?

Its a sign of progress, a chance to have some special nights... Aberdeen had Bayern Munich recently and some other great ties.

We might get nice draws and get into the Europa league, we have to push for that, excellent experience for the players, money into the club, some trips for the fans.
The more frequently we get 3rd/4th, the better chance we'll also go slightly better in the Europa league.

Basically, the whole clubs profile then gets better, which means keeping good players + scope to attract decent players.

heidtheba
28-03-2010, 10:59 AM
You never know what might happen. Yeah you might get bent over by some wee team (insert obvious joke here) but then there's always the chance of a scoreline, even temporary, like

Raith Rovers 1 Bayern Munich 0

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 10:59 AM
So whats the point in bothering?:confused:

That's what I asked.

Danderhall Hibs
28-03-2010, 11:00 AM
So whats the point in bothering?:confused:

I'm not really sure. I think that's a point HibbyRadge is making as well. :wink:

It's worth it if you can get into the group stages (or further) and draw a Bayern Munich or the likes (like Aberdeen did).

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 11:00 AM
I thought 3rd place meant 1 tie, and 4th place 2?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_UEFA_Europa_League

blackpoolhibs
28-03-2010, 11:04 AM
That's what I asked.


I'm not really sure. I think that's a point HibbyRadge is making as well. :wink:

It's worth it if you can get into the group stages (or further) and draw a Bayern Munich or the likes (like Aberdeen did).

It has to be the progress the club is making. If we can do it regularly, we surely will get better at it, with hopefully more revenue we will get better players. Thats surely the plan. Oh and the jolly ups are always good.:greengrin

CropleyWasGod
28-03-2010, 11:04 AM
If you have to play the inter-toto rounds you struggle to break-even. I think I read that Motherwell were making a loss this year until they drew Steau Bucharest - they had to cut costs by travelling to London by bus to catch the flight to Azerbaijan (or wherever).

Kudos is also knackered after you lose 1-0 to Llanelli.

Okay, modify my answer by inserting the word "potential".

:greengrin

Having said that, there have been some magical European nights in the past..... Napoli, Leeds, AEK... and there is a certain romantic mythology that is built up. I think that that contributes to the drive for it.

Jack
28-03-2010, 11:10 AM
All good reasons above but what I cant understand is how the fans would be able to afford to go to the away games.
Just how do the fans of clubs who regularly reach the later stages do it?

Erinfly
28-03-2010, 11:13 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_UEFA_Europa_League

Best case scenario then is if Hibs finish 3rd and Celtic beat Utd in the final we go straight into the cup winners slot meaning 1 knockout round to get into the europa league proper! Seems worth it to me...:thumbsup:

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 11:26 AM
Best case scenario then is if Hibs finish 3rd and Celtic beat Utd in the final we go straight into the cup winners slot meaning 1 knockout round to get into the europa league proper! Seems worth it to me...:thumbsup:

Wouldn't United go into the cup winner's place?

Danderhall Hibs
28-03-2010, 11:34 AM
Wouldn't United go into the cup winner's place?

Only if the win the Cup? If they lose the Final (or whoever loses it) should get the 5th best qualifying route.

That's my opinion BTW, not what the actual facts are. :greengrin

Nakedmanoncrack
28-03-2010, 11:38 AM
If we finish fourth, we'll have games in July. We'd have 3 ties to get through before the group stages.

Third place and we'd have 2 ties.

(The Cup winners go straight into the final play off round so these could change depending on the finalists.)

We have zero chance of winning the Europa Cup and little hope of getting to the group stages.

So, apart from a jolly for the few fans who can afford to go to Azerbaijan or Hercegovina or wherever, what's the big deal for the club?

I want Hibs to finish as high up the league as possible, but should we really be getting excited about European qualification?

:dunno:
:agree:
You are right, merely qualifying for Europe means nothing to me, the acheivement is to finish high in the league, Europe is a reward for that. If you get into Europe for merely finishing 4th, 5th, for losing a cup fina, or the biggest joke of them all; via the fair play place, l it's totally worthless.

blackpoolhibs
28-03-2010, 11:52 AM
:agree:
You are right, merely qualifying for Europe means nothing to me, the acheivement is to finish high in the league, Europe is a reward for that. If you get into Europe for merely finishing 4th, 5th, for losing a cup fina, or the biggest joke of them all; via the fair play place, l it's totally worthless.

Not if you take advantage of it? We might get lucky and get an easy draw, and get through to the next round, were we get a huge club, and make a few bob. We just dont know, so i'd rather we were in than out.

Shaggy
28-03-2010, 12:09 PM
For me a jolly is good enough,
I just want more of the atmosphere like it was at Bolton last summer... and that was just a friendly !!

The biggest Hibs racket since the CIS !
more of that please:greengrin

heretoday
28-03-2010, 12:10 PM
Qualification for Europe means at least one big night at ER which brings in cash too. Some of us can remember when these were regular affairs and eagerly looked forward to, although to be honest Hibs had only slightly more chance of winning a Euro trophy then than they do now.

It might persuade one or two "stars" to stay another year at Hibs. And it's a prestige thing to wave at our neighbours.

MSK
28-03-2010, 12:18 PM
If we could replicate nights such as the game at Easter Rd v AEK Athens then i am all for it...the atmosphere that night was unbelievable, the place was absolutley rocking...more nights like that please ..

Sean1875
28-03-2010, 12:25 PM
Attract more players to the club? Much more likely to come to a club in Europe.

Danderhall Hibs
28-03-2010, 12:41 PM
Attract more players to the club? Much more likely to come to a club in Europe.

Most Scottish sides are out before the transfer window closes though.

And although I agree with the atmosphere being great v AEK Athens the more recent European games we've had have been against Elfsborg and that Danish team that we played on Sunday afternoons with a wee crowd and no atmosphere sometime in July.

Having said all that I do want us to qualify for Europe!

freddie m
28-03-2010, 12:44 PM
Getting to the group stages would be a massive incentive for the Hibs, considering the financial situation of a lot of teams in Scotland, and our excellent financial position then Hibs unlike other clubs would be able to strengthen our clubs infrastructure more, this includes player acquisitions, when compared to our rivals. Who knows this in itself may get us closer to that Scottish cup success that we all crave, even if it does not one would expect Hibs to be able to consolidate our position in the top three at least.
Glory glory
:flag::flag::flag:

MWHIBBIES
28-03-2010, 12:50 PM
You cant realy say we hve zero chance,look at fulham.
Also if we get a team like roma valencia or wender breman it would be a great night at ER like when aberdeen got bayern and they drew 2-2.

Frazerbob
28-03-2010, 12:57 PM
To be honest a wee jolly to to some countries that end in "stan" is the reason I want European football as often as possible. If we get that and maybe a wee glamour tie like the Anderlecht game then it's all been worthwhile IMO.

Unfortunately, getting dumped in the first tie by a Vetra or a Elfsbourg is more likely for us.

Hibster
28-03-2010, 01:08 PM
Its all about making progress and players gaining useful experience. Who cares if we have no chance of winning it, we don't have any chance of winning the SPL either. A couple of games against a team from the continent will be a lot more worthwhile than a couple of games against the likes of Motherwell and Kilmarnock though

Yeah we'll probably lose in the first couple of rounds if we qualify this year, but if we've got any ambitions as a club we have to be qualifying for Europe on a regular basis.

boomtownhibby
28-03-2010, 01:49 PM
If we finish fourth, we'll have games in July. We'd have 3 ties to get through before the group stages.

Third place and we'd have 2 ties.

(The Cup winners go straight into the final play off round so these could change depending on the finalists.)

We have zero chance of winning the Europa Cup and little hope of getting to the group stages.

So, apart from a jolly for the few fans who can afford to go to Azerbaijan or Hercegovina or wherever, what's the big deal for the club?

I want Hibs to finish as high up the league as possible, but should we really be getting excited about European qualification?

:dunno:



i can't believe you have came out with something like that:confused:

Spike Mandela
28-03-2010, 01:54 PM
Regular European qualification might just be the difference in signing a quality player over our rivals.

Europe has to be our target every year.

GlesgaeHibby
28-03-2010, 01:56 PM
Just look at the excitement around Aberdeen in the group stages, and then the massive game at Pitoddrie against Bayern Munich.

Add in the financial benefits of playing in Europe and wanting a piece of that is a no brainer!

iwasthere1972
28-03-2010, 02:01 PM
If we finish fourth, we'll have games in July. We'd have 3 ties to get through before the group stages.

Third place and we'd have 2 ties.

(The Cup winners go straight into the final play off round so these could change depending on the finalists.)

We have zero chance of winning the Europa Cup and little hope of getting to the group stages.

So, apart from a jolly for the few fans who can afford to go to Azerbaijan or Hercegovina or wherever, what's the big deal for the club?

I want Hibs to finish as high up the league as possible, but should we really be getting excited about European qualification?

:dunno:

Regardless of who we play and at what stage we enter the competition Hibs should be looking to qualify for Europe every year.

Mind you I can't see us ever emulating the Yams and bringing the Champions League Cup back to Edinburgh. I've been on Youtube but can't find any footage of the open top buses travelling through Gorgie. :devil:

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 02:02 PM
i can't believe you have came out with something like that:confused:

I can't believe you're confused.

I thought it was quite an interesting topic for conversation.

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 02:06 PM
Regardless of who we play and at what stage we enter the competition Hibs should always be looking to qualify for Europe every year.


Yes we should, but I am trying to work out the actual advantages to the club of getting knocked out before the group stages by teams like Dnipro and Elfsborg.

GloryGlory
28-03-2010, 02:10 PM
Attract more players to the club? Much more likely to come to a club in Europe.

Yeah but we'd need to sign players on PCs or at the start of the window, we'll be out by the end of JUly never mind the end of August... :wink:

iwasthere1972
28-03-2010, 02:12 PM
Yes we should, but I am trying to work out the actual advantages to the club of getting knocked out before the group stages by teams like Dnipro and Elfsborg.


There's none that I can see. All we can do is live in hope that we progress further than we have in recent times and that we get drawn against one of the top guns.

I am perhaps luckier than a lot of posters on here that I was around in the late 60's and early 70's when Hibs more than matched the likes of Naples, Leeds, Liverpool, Hamburg, Porto etc. Doubt we will ever see those days returning to ER but where there's hope.

boomtownhibby
28-03-2010, 02:15 PM
I can't believe you're confused.

I thought it was quite an interesting topic for conversation.



your suggesting that european qualification is average. The players get to play on a bigger stage against bigger and better sides , not to mention the fans seeing there side come up against european sides , a trip away . Or a night at E.R. I suppose the AEK affair was nothing oustanding ?

Sir David Gray
28-03-2010, 02:22 PM
I can't understand why any Hibs fan would think it's not worthwhile getting into Europe.

OK so we're not going to win the Europa League and even our chances of getting to the group stages are slim but we shouldn't be saying it's a waste of time just because we won't win it. If we took that attitude with everything, there would be no point in playing in the SPL.

European football gives the club a bit of prestige, particularly if we're playing there on a regular basis. It will give us financial benefits and may also encourage players of a higher ability to sign for us.

I can't see any downside to qualifying for Europe.

Erinfly
28-03-2010, 02:25 PM
Only if the win the Cup? If they lose the Final (or whoever loses it) should get the 5th best qualifying route.

That's my opinion BTW, not what the actual facts are. :greengrin

From this season the runner up gets sweet FA and the next place down in the league gets the best entry into the europa league. i.e. 3rd place. If utd are 3rd anyway then they enter at the knockout round and the next places get bumped down, i.e. 4th will enter at final qualifying round and 5th place gets the final euro place...

Its all not going to matter anyway as ross county are gonnae win the cup!:thumbsup:

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 02:30 PM
your suggesting that european qualification is average. The players get to play on a bigger stage against bigger and better sides , not to mention the fans seeing there side come up against european sides , a trip away . Or a night at E.R. I suppose the AEK affair was nothing oustanding ?

I didn't suggest anything. I stated a few facts and asked a couple of questions.

Yes, AEK was a great night although we were ultimately knocked out when we had our most expensively compiled team ever. I'm old enough to have watched us beating Sporting Lisbon 6 - 1, Rosenborg 7 - 1, Liverpool etc etc too. I was there when we beat Videoton 3 - 0 away too, so I'm well aware of what a good Euro night looks like.

That was then.

The reality of now is that we can't knock Ross County out of the Scottish Cup, never mind reach the group stages of the Europa Cup. Proabably.

Of course I want us to qualify and I'll probably go to the away game(s), but I just think we need to keep the achievement in perspective.

micksoo
28-03-2010, 02:33 PM
Only if the win the Cup? If they lose the Final (or whoever loses it) should get the 5th best qualifying route.

That's my opinion BTW, not what the actual facts are. :greengrin

Correct - that is what happened to Falkirk last year!

If they win then they will go into play off round (1 before league).

Cup winners - Play off round
3rd place - 3rd qualifying round
4th Place - 2nd qualifying round

If Celtic win cup and DU runners up then:

3rd place - play off round.
4th place - 3rd qualifying round.
Cup runners up - 2nd qualifying round.

If DU get to final v Celtic and finish in top 5 - euro places will go to 3rd, 4th and 5th.

boomtownhibby
28-03-2010, 02:58 PM
I didn't suggest anything. I stated a few facts and asked a couple of questions.

Yes, AEK was a great night although we were ultimately knocked out when we had our most expensively compiled team ever. I'm old enough to have watched us beating Sporting Lisbon 6 - 1, Rosenborg 7 - 1, Liverpool etc etc too. I was there when we beat Videoton 3 - 0 away too, so I'm well aware of what a good Euro night looks like.

That was then.

The reality of now is that we can't knock Ross County out of the Scottish Cup, never mind reach the group stages of the Europa Cup. Proabably.

Of course I want us to qualify and I'll probably go to the away game(s), but I just think we need to keep the achievement in perspective.



yeah your right , no point in qualifiying for europe if we are just gonna get put out , no point trying to compete in big competitions. I honestly tihnk half the people on this are happpier when hibs get beat

blackpoolhibs
28-03-2010, 03:28 PM
I didn't suggest anything. I stated a few facts and asked a couple of questions.

Yes, AEK was a great night although we were ultimately knocked out when we had our most expensively compiled team ever. I'm old enough to have watched us beating Sporting Lisbon 6 - 1, Rosenborg 7 - 1, Liverpool etc etc too. I was there when we beat Videoton 3 - 0 away too, so I'm well aware of what a good Euro night looks like.

That was then.

The reality of now is that we can't knock Ross County out of the Scottish Cup, never mind reach the group stages of the Europa Cup. Proabably.

Of course I want us to qualify and I'll probably go to the away game(s), but I just think we need to keep the achievement in perspective.

If we qualify and get knocked out at the first hurdle, then we have to qualify again next year, and hopefully do better. And again and again, until such times as we are getting into the group stages each season. It may take 5 years, maybe 10, but we have to keep trying.

basehibby
28-03-2010, 03:40 PM
If we finish fourth, we'll have games in July. We'd have 3 ties to get through before the group stages.

Third place and we'd have 2 ties.

(The Cup winners go straight into the final play off round so these could change depending on the finalists.)

We have zero chance of winning the Europa Cup and little hope of getting to the group stages.

So, apart from a jolly for the few fans who can afford to go to Azerbaijan or Hercegovina or wherever, what's the big deal for the club?

I want Hibs to finish as high up the league as possible, but should we really be getting excited about European qualification?

:dunno:

The sheep and the yams have both got to the group stages in recent years so why shouldn't Hibs have a chance???

If the group stages were reached it would mean a good financial shot in the arm for the club.

Regardless of that it would mean a big beano for anyone who fancied the trip and plenty of excitement even in just the extra and exotic fixture(s) at ER. These are plenty enough reasons to covet a place in Europe and that's before you even start saying GIRFUY to the yams :greengrin

GreenBlade
28-03-2010, 04:23 PM
yeah your right , no point in qualifiying for europe if we are just gonna get put out , no point trying to compete in big competitions. I honestly tihnk half the people on this are happpier when hibs get beat

Well said :top marks

I remember pre-season in Ireland 30 years ago and 20 years ago in Eastern Germany. I remember watching a wonder goal in Liege in Belgium and I remember the Hibs fans singing along to the local band half an hour after the final whistle, despite going out of the Eufa Cup. That's why I want to see us qualify. Oh and by the way, who the hell are we to say we've never heard of the teams we might face. Like Hibs must roll off the tongue of every foreigner between Dover and Vladivostok?!

We need sponsorship and if we can create a team that can qualify for European competion annually then it means our club can increase income AND attract better players. We may never win it but hey 109 years and counting. Should we pull out of the scottish cup then?

HibbyAndy
28-03-2010, 04:49 PM
If we finish fourth, we'll have games in July. We'd have 3 ties to get through before the group stages.

Third place and we'd have 2 ties.

(The Cup winners go straight into the final play off round so these could change depending on the finalists.)

We have zero chance of winning the Europa Cup and little hope of getting to the group stages.

So, apart from a jolly for the few fans who can afford to go to Azerbaijan or Hercegovina or wherever, what's the big deal for the club?

I want Hibs to finish as high up the league as possible, but should we really be getting excited about European qualification?

:dunno:



Didnt Hearts and Aberdeen manage to get into the group stages?.

And they both raked in ££££££££.

I actually find this thread very much ridiculous.

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 05:17 PM
Didnt Hearts and Aberdeen manage to get into the group stages?.

And they both raked in ££££££££.

I actually find this thread very much ridiculous.

Thank you for giving it the credibility it deserves by replying.

:na na:

MSK
28-03-2010, 05:24 PM
Didnt Hearts and Aberdeen manage to get into the group stages?.

And they both raked in ££££££££.

I actually find this thread very much ridiculous.How much did the yam tramps & Abersheep make during their european jaunts ..?

PaulSmith
28-03-2010, 05:27 PM
How much did the yam tramps & Abersheep make during their european jaunts ..?

I'm sure Aberdeen was around the £1.5m mark.

HibbyAndy
28-03-2010, 05:45 PM
How much did the yam tramps & Abersheep make during their european jaunts ..?

Not quite sure what Hearts made, But Aberdeen managed 2M plus IIRC.

blackpoolhibs
28-03-2010, 05:54 PM
Not quite sure what Hearts made, But Aberdeen managed 2M plus IIRC.

If that's true, its well worth trying to get into it.

MSK
28-03-2010, 05:56 PM
I'm sure Aberdeen was around the £1.5m mark.


Not quite sure what Hearts made, But Aberdeen managed 2M plus IIRC.Cannae knock those figures...:aok:

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 06:17 PM
If that's true, its well worth trying to get into it.


Cannae knock those figures...:aok:

Yip.

I just hope people don't get too despondent if we fail at the first, second or third hurdle. :wink:

Hainan Hibs
28-03-2010, 06:50 PM
After the atmosphere of the AEK match I want Hibs to be in Europe. Cracking night and one of the best matches I've been to. I'd love Hibs to be in Europe regularly.

17000 Hibees were bouncing to DJ Otzi "Hey Baby" ffs, who could say no to that?:greengrin

Hibbyradge
28-03-2010, 07:01 PM
After the atmosphere of the AEK match I want Hibs to be in Europe. Cracking night and one of the best matches I've been to. I'd love Hibs to be in Europe regularly.

17000 Hibees were bouncing to DJ Otzi "Hey Baby" ffs, who could say no to that?:greengrin

Yes, that was a great atmosphere and we went close.

We've had 3 home European ties since then though.

Having said that, a full, brand new 20 thousand stadium on a big euro night would be awesome.

Hainan Hibs
28-03-2010, 07:42 PM
Yes, that was a great atmosphere and we went close.

We've had 3 home European ties since then though.

Having said that, a full, brand new 20 thousand stadium on a big euro night would be awesome.

Think the Dnipro tie was a bit different because it was the first leg, the 2nd leg is always the more atmospheric (is that a word?) game. Hibs fans did have 45 seconds of mayhem when Deeko scored in Ukraine to put us ahead on goal difference, it's ashame it only lasted for less than a minute:boo hoo:

I realise that more likely than not with the changes to the european competitions that we will get pumped by some unknown team in what is more or less the intertoto cup rounds, but I'd hope if we were able to keep progressing the team we could have more European nights like the AEK Athens game.

Nitten Hibee
28-03-2010, 07:47 PM
If we finish fourth, we'll have games in July. We'd have 3 ties to get through before the group stages.

Third place and we'd have 2 ties.

(The Cup winners go straight into the final play off round so these could change depending on the finalists.)

We have zero chance of winning the Europa Cup and little hope of getting to the group stages.

So, apart from a jolly for the few fans who can afford to go to Azerbaijan or Hercegovina or wherever, what's the big deal for the club?

I want Hibs to finish as high up the league as possible, but should we really be getting excited about European qualification?

:dunno:


:faf::faf::faf:

lots of good reasons money being the main one! rasing our profile in europe good trip for the fans ect ect :bye:

Jamesie
28-03-2010, 07:52 PM
Was thinking about a holiday in late October - bit of a gamble given we might be in the group stages at that time though :whistle:

Hibster
28-03-2010, 07:57 PM
Yes we should, but I am trying to work out the actual advantages to the club of getting knocked out before the group stages by teams like Dnipro and Elfsborg.

There probably aren't any. But then there's no advantages to getting knocked out of the SC in the first round, so lets not bother with that ever again...

Sorry, I know you're just trying to start a debate but for me its a total non-stater. Of course we want to be qualifying for Europe. It should be the ambition of every club in Europe, but especially for us playing in a league thats completely dominated by two teams. Europe is realistically the only way we're ever going to make any kind of real progress as a club - no it won't happen straight away, but if we can start qualifying on a regular basis we're bound to benefit

Hibs On Tour
28-03-2010, 08:39 PM
1] Perhaps a couple of more competitive pre-season games instead of the practically bounce game friendlies against other British teams

2] Possibility [regardless how unlikely] of progression to group stages and making some dosh and getting some kudos

3] More interest for the fans, different opposition, perhaps bigger turnouts and more revenue for club as opposed to friendlies

IMHO of course...