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View Full Version : Who is to blame?



sunshine1875
24-03-2010, 10:33 AM
We are always told we live in a no-blame culture. But then when the :******:we all, including Hibs.net, start looking to blame someone.

So who is to blame for our end of season form? And why?

sunshine1875
24-03-2010, 12:11 PM
We are always told we live in a no-blame culture. But then when the :******:we all, including Hibs.net, start looking to blame someone.

So who is to blame for our end of season form? And why?

I should have added that my response was Yogi. We have some good players, but the shape is all wrong and Yogi seems reluctant to change it. We have no midfield, no chances are ever created down our left side, Riordan is wasted on the left etc I could go on.

His substitutions are usually never effective, usually making the team weaker. The case in point was against RC in the first game when one-up, he weakens the midfield rather than trying to close the game out.

bawheid
24-03-2010, 12:14 PM
Combination of all of the above IMO.

Chuckie
24-03-2010, 12:18 PM
Gramo

sunshine1875
24-03-2010, 12:31 PM
Gramo

Should I have added CalgaryHibs as an option? We seem to have gone downhill since his computer problems started.

sunshine1875
24-03-2010, 01:36 PM
We are always told we live in a no-blame culture. But then when the :******:we all, including Hibs.net, start looking to blame someone.

So who is to blame for our end of season form? And why?

So far, it looks like we blame the Manager more than the players. Is that your view?

Bayern Bru
24-03-2010, 01:49 PM
Yogi & backroom staff - why can they not see what we see?
It seems like Yogi is going to persist with his tactics until they work...which is not the way to go about it. If tactics don't work repeatedly, you change them until you find something that does work. Even the closed doors games should have been a warning sign that things needed changed.

Players - not enough winners, not working hard enough
I'd agree with this. How many times have we been to games when one or other players just haven't looked interested enough? More than I care to remember and it's repeat offenders.

Supporters - too critical, not supportive enough
Probably plays a part. If things aren't going well for the players and the crowd gets on their back then it's obviously going to have an effect. We've seen the abuse and subsequent reactions from players such as Nish. The difficult part is supporting the players when they're not trying.

Media - they built us into something we were not
Absolutely. I feel we were punching above our weight at the beginning of the season, with pundits touting us for the cup, and other teams saying we could challenge for the title - all far, far too premature.

Football pitches - they prevent us from playing our silky football
Sounds like a lame excuse but it plays its part in our downturn in form. It's no coincidence that we nearly always have something of a blip in the period shortly after winter. If pitches are crap then we can't pass the ball about and we resort to hoofball which in turn angers the fans and subsequently affects the players.

If we think back to the game against Hamilton, many thought that was uncharacteristic of Hibs, and following that game, we seemed to bounce back. If we managed it then then what's the problem this time? Or was the Hamilton game a true representation of what Hibs were normally capable of and the 'bouncing back' was in fact the uncharacteristic part of the team?

sunshine1875
24-03-2010, 02:17 PM
Yogi & backroom staff - why can they not see what we see?
It seems like Yogi is going to persist with his tactics until they work...which is not the way to go about it. If tactics don't work repeatedly, you change them until you find something that does work. Even the closed doors games should have been a warning sign that things needed changed.

Players - not enough winners, not working hard enough
I'd agree with this. How many times have we been to games when one or other players just haven't looked interested enough? More than I care to remember and it's repeat offenders.

Supporters - too critical, not supportive enough
Probably plays a part. If things aren't going well for the players and the crowd gets on their back then it's obviously going to have an effect. We've seen the abuse and subsequent reactions from players such as Nish. The difficult part is supporting the players when they're not trying.

Media - they built us into something we were not
Absolutely. I feel we were punching above our weight at the beginning of the season, with pundits touting us for the cup, and other teams saying we could challenge for the title - all far, far too premature.

Football pitches - they prevent us from playing our silky football
Sounds like a lame excuse but it plays its part in our downturn in form. It's no coincidence that we nearly always have something of a blip in the period shortly after winter. If pitches are crap then we can't pass the ball about and we resort to hoofball which in turn angers the fans and subsequently affects the players.

If we think back to the game against Hamilton, many thought that was uncharacteristic of Hibs, and following that game, we seemed to bounce back. If we managed it then then what's the problem this time? Or was the Hamilton game a true representation of what Hibs were normally capable of and the 'bouncing back' was in fact the uncharacteristic part of the team?

All good points. The real problem is a combination of most of the options. However, I thought if I gave people more than one option they would tick all the boxes and that would not really tell us what people thought.

I think the balance is about right, with most believing that the main problem is Yogi (and his refusal to change) closely followed by the Players.

sunshine1875
24-03-2010, 03:27 PM
From his comments on the Hibs website, it looks like he is still blaming the players.

Stop patrionising us and say you are setting up the team wrongly. It has been evident for weeks.

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20100324/hughes-im-not-going-to-hide_2262950_2004072 (http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20100324/hughes-im-not-going-to-hide_2262950_2004072)

"Even the way we played, we are better than that and we should have shown it". It's the players fault. But we have been poor for weeks, last night was not a blip.

"They were two poor goals from my opinion.....". It's the defenders faults, but they have been dodgy for weeks.

"I always felt that we would get one on the counter, we just needed to stand up to it a little bit....." Why set up a team to play counter attacking football, why not try and strangle the life out of the game so we are on the front foot?

"I will keep my opinion on the players to myself, but I have seen us a lot better.....". Players fault again, but we haven't played well for weeks and it is time to change the formation.

blackpoolhibs
24-03-2010, 03:30 PM
It has to be Gordon Marshall, he's to blame for everything from the Kennedy shooting, to the Brixton riots.

scoopyboy
24-03-2010, 03:55 PM
Combination of all of the above IMO.

agreed

sunshine1875
24-03-2010, 04:50 PM
So who voted for Rod? Was that you, Yogi?

Viva_Palmeiras
24-03-2010, 04:55 PM
Combination of all of the above IMO.


From what I've seen I'd go along with that.
Donno about Petrie tho' however perhaps like Mixu, Yogi has to prove he needs a player before splashing perhaps this is why we saw game time for players that perhaps would have otherwise not made the bench.

Viva_Palmeiras
24-03-2010, 05:02 PM
Since Yogi (or is it Scott Lindsay?) came to the club I think many will agree that overall communication has improved - we have greater access to whats going on.

However I do wonder whether Yogi's style - keeping the fans updated through the papers - is perhaps too much too soon for the players. Don't envy Yogi's position but if I were him I think I'd have a more detailed message for the players in the dressing room and a perhaps less transparent message through the papers.

hibiedude
24-03-2010, 05:27 PM
Yogi & backroom staff - because the players have not become bad footballers overnight Yogi's tactics and formation is the issue.

I keep hearing the reason for R01rdans poor form is because he's being played out of position' so who's to blame for that ?

Phil D. Rolls
24-03-2010, 05:35 PM
My money's on a bloke called Boyd, and a dodgy watch owned by the referee.

I'd also like to cite: poor parenting; Thatcher; the welfare state; Jonathon Ross; the Rolling Stones; Jack Kerouac; Woody Guthrie; Charles Manson; John Wayne; the Virgin Mary; Les Patterson; Marlon Brando; Cassius Clay; Frank Ifield; Clement Atlee; Emiline Pankhurst; Emile Zola; Salvador Dali; Heile Salassi (sp); Mussolini; Bryan Gould; Christopher Columbus; Thor Heyedal; Steve Cardownie; Eric Burdon; Ian Rankin; John Sainsbury; Muffin the Mule; Jaffa Cakes; Leyland Buses; Tennis; Tarmacadam; seaweed (yeuch); Pittenweem; giants; King Juan Carlos; Jacques Tati; King William i of Holland; LSD; those in the 22 bus queue outside Standard Life; Andrew Carnegie; Dale Carnegie; and, Coulnae Carnegie Less.......

more follows

sunshine1875
02-04-2010, 06:29 PM
A few more games have passed. For those still to vote, who is to blame for our current poor form.

For those that said Yogi, do you still think Yogi is more to blame rather than the spineless, gutless players we have?

Hakim Sar
02-04-2010, 11:23 PM
we dont have good enough players.

i genuinely dont think yogi would play this formation if we had a different set of players availabe

Phil D. Rolls
03-04-2010, 08:52 AM
I blame the parents.

Phil D. Rolls
03-04-2010, 08:59 AM
Since Yogi (or is it Scott Lindsay?) came to the club I think many will agree that overall communication has improved - we have greater access to whats going on.

However I do wonder whether Yogi's style - keeping the fans updated through the papers - is perhaps too much too soon for the players. Don't envy Yogi's position but if I were him I think I'd have a more detailed message for the players in the dressing room and a perhaps less transparent message through the papers.

See, that's where I think the problem lies. The fans are fickle, and a significant proportion of them are not bright enough to remember what they had for tea last night, let alone what happened last week.

Asking the fans to be pragmatic, and accept the rough with the smooth is just not a goer. Explaining things to them is fruitless, unless you are explaining why you won that week.

Regardless of how well the team does,the fans will always want more. Information is just oxygen for their furnace of indignation. Of course, because they "pay the players wages", they think they have rights. They have no rights other than to withdraw their support.

The arrogance of supporters who know doubt make mistakes in their own jobs, and find it difficult to plan a trip to the shops, saying that they know how to run a football club is breathtaking.

These are the people who will give a player pelters for 80 minutes and cheer him when he scores. If they are so clever, how come they get taken by surprise every time things go wrong.

Don't tell the fans the truth. They can't handle the truth.

BroxburnHibee
03-04-2010, 09:12 AM
I blame Mowbray myself - been on a downward spiral since he never solved the goalkeeping problem

hibees_green
03-04-2010, 09:13 AM
Probably the board. They have consistently failed to understand that you can't scrimp on your manager. Almost all managers since mcleish have been risky punts (that's not rhyming slang) and as such the probability that you'll uncover a mowbery is simply to low.

United could afford Levein, well afforded craig brown, hearts afforded burley ..... But us we've went for 3 mangers in the last 6 that had never managed anyone!!!!!

MrSmith
03-04-2010, 09:15 AM
All of us in all our differing opinions are to blame!

Twitchy fans = players = managers = board equates to the media getting their exclusives and slaughtering the club!!

BroxburnHibee
03-04-2010, 09:16 AM
Surprisingly it seems Petrie is untouchable now :greengrin (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=67415)

Phil D. Rolls
03-04-2010, 09:20 AM
Probably the board. They have consistently failed to understand that you can't scrimp on your manager. Almost all managers since mcleish have been risky punts (that's not ryming slang) and as such the probability that you'll uncover a mowbery is simply to low.

United could afford Levein, well afforded craig brown, hearts afforded burley ..... But us we've went for 3 mangers in the last 6 that had never managed anyone!!!!!

On the other hand, if they hadn't scrimped and saved we'd be as skint as the Yams, with nothing to show for it. No stadium, which will generate income, no training ground, which (Im told) will improve the quality of play on the park.

Motherwell can't afford anything that's what's galling. United could only afford Levein because their owner was pumping money into the club.

Short of finding a sugar daddy that really cares about the club, I don't see how we can do anything else other than cut our cloth according to our means, and hope that we strike lucky at some point in the future.

Hearts have been throwing squillions of pounds at their club, and they don't have much to show for it when you consider things.

As for untried managers, what about John McGlynn at Raith Rovers, he'd never been a manager before, yet given patience by some of their fans he has them in a strong position.

down the slope
03-04-2010, 09:21 AM
See, that's where I think the problem lies. The fans are fickle, and a significant proportion of them are not bright enough to remember what they had for tea last night, let alone what happened last week.

Asking the fans to be pragmatic, and accept the rough with the smooth is just not a goer. Explaining things to them is fruitless, unless you are explaining why you won that week.

Regardless of how well the team does,the fans will always want more. Information is just oxygen for their furnace of indignation. Of course, because they "pay the players wages", they think they have rights. They have no rights other than to withdraw their support.

The arrogance of supporters who know doubt make mistakes in their own jobs, and find it difficult to plan a trip to the shops, saying that they know how to run a football club is breathtaking.

These are the people who will give a player pelters for 80 minutes and cheer him when he scores. If they are so clever, how come they get taken by surprise every time things go wrong.

Don't tell the fans the truth. They can't handle the truth.

I'm off to the shops-now where are they again ?, nobody on here is saying we know how to run a football club but we know when the team are playing eye bleedingly pi55 poor football, as regards us not having a right to criticise what a load of cobblers, lets hope we never have to live in your world where you are unable to raise an issue which you might see as wrong.
I think you will see on by the size of the crowd on Sunday what the fans think and it will give you a taste of what next season will be like, sad times indeed when there are more Hibbies sitting in their hooses than going to games, i suggest that will give you a true picture of what the fans think.

Phil D. Rolls
03-04-2010, 09:28 AM
I'm off to the shops-now where are they again ?, nobody on here is saying we know how to run a football club but we know when the team are playing eye bleedingly pi55 poor football, as regards us not having a right to criticise what a load of cobblers, lets hope we never have to live in your world where you are unable to raise an issue which you might see as wrong.
I think you will see on by the size of the crowd on Sunday what the fans think and it will give you a taste of what next season will be like, sad times indeed when there are more Hibbies sitting in their hooses than going to games, i suggest that will give you a true picture of what the fans think.

Fair dos, would you mind getting me a packet of regal?:greengrin

By the way, plenty of people are saying they know how to run a football club on here. I think debating whether the manager keeps his job comes into that category.

Like you, I think the way fans should express their displeasure is by staying away. If people were to take a mature view of what's going on though, they should recognise that the team isn't that much worse than it was six months ago when they were all chanting the managers name.

Other teams have learned how to play us, we were a wee bit lucky earlier in the season. And - crucially - confidence was higher.

Bostonhibby
03-04-2010, 09:31 AM
Mainly Tony Blair, but I think Richard Nixon was involved in a lot of conspiracy stuff around the time that Turnbull started needlessly breaking up the best Hibs team I have ever seen in the early to mid 70's, so I am certain he had something to do with it. I also think he behaved and looked like a jambo so this is also powerful evidence.

hibees_green
03-04-2010, 09:34 AM
On the other hand, if they hadn't scrimped and saved we'd be as skint as the Yams, with nothing to show for it. No stadium, which will generate income, no training ground, which (Im told) will improve the quality of ....................As for untried managers, what about John McGlynn at Raith Rovers, he'd never been a manager before, yet given patience by some of their fans he has them in a strong position.

I refuse to accept the eternal 'great stadium, great training complex, great accounts' smokescreen that the club has sold so well. We are a football club and performces and results is what i'm interested in.

I'm not saying we should spend beyond our means but I simply think the managers position is the last area that should be compromised.

I really believe this is why we have consistently underachieved as the odds are stacked against us from the start.

hibees_green
03-04-2010, 09:40 AM
Meant to add that I would swap anyone of stokes riordan or Murray for a proven manager as I have no doubt that the results overall would improve, especially in the long term

sahib
03-04-2010, 09:52 AM
I refuse to accept the eternal 'great stadium, great training complex, great accounts' smokescreen that the club has sold so well. We are a football club and performces and results is what i'm interested in.

I'm not saying we should spend beyond our means but I simply think the managers position is the last area that should be compromised.

I really believe this is why we have consistently underachieved as the odds are stacked against us from the start.

These are real achievements I don't think they should be so lightly dismissed. It shows that despite the tightwad approach, money saved is being re-invested in the club. You can waste a lot of money on players especially in the expensive hasbeen class that a lot of people would have us buy. We should play more youngsters. To this end, there should be a club policy, that ensures first team football for players who demonstrate progress. I would force this on our managers, as I believe most have short term goals only and who can blame them given the irrational expectations of the fans.

Phil D. Rolls
03-04-2010, 09:53 AM
I refuse to accept the eternal 'great stadium, great training complex, great accounts' smokescreen that the club has sold so well. We are a football club and performces and results is what i'm interested in.

I'm not saying we should spend beyond our means but I simply think the managers position is the last area that should be compromised.

I really believe this is why we have consistently underachieved as the odds are stacked against us from the start.

I'm flagging them up as signposts that progress has been made by living within our means. I hope they are pointers that things will get better over the next decade.

That doesn't make the current performances any less painful. I had hoped that maybe everything on and off the field were coming together at the same time. It looks like that hasn't happened - yet.

hibees_green
03-04-2010, 10:00 AM
These are real achievements I don't think they should be so lightly dismissed. It shows that despite the tightwad approach money saved, is being re-invested in the club. You can waste a lot of money on players especially in the expensive hasbeen class that a lot of people would have us buy. We should play more youngsters there should be a club policy that ensures first team football for players who demonstrate progress. I would force this on our managers as I believe most have short term goals only and who can blame them given the irrational expectations of the fans.

What is it all about. Why do people ignore that hearts are still here and will be for a long time. Hearts have an adequate stadium to generate income. Hearts have an adequate training centre to develop raw talent. Simple fact I's they have been more successful than us over the last ten years.

Motherwell have only been marginally less successfull with a fraction of our fan base.

We don't need the empire we've spent our money on. We need good players and a good manager.

hibees_green
03-04-2010, 10:07 AM
I'm flagging them up as signposts that progress has been made by living within our means. I hope they are pointers that things will get better over the next decade.

That doesn't make the current performances any less painful. I had hoped that maybe everything on and off the field were coming together at the same time. It looks like that hasn't happened - yet.

I understand what your saying and I used to agree. Howewver I no longer think that there is any link between the two within the league in which we compete. There is simply no evidence (even green shoots of evidence) that this theory holds true.

I now beleive success is build on having an infrastructure that is the minimum required to meet your needs and spending every penny possible on the playing squad and manager.

Golden Bear
03-04-2010, 10:11 AM
A combination of most of these things I'd say.

ScottB
03-04-2010, 10:46 AM
Mix of the players and Hughes.

Of the players Bamba stands out for me, his return from the ANC unbalanced our team and defence and started Yogi off on his attempts at changing a team that was working and dropping inform players (Hanlon, Smith) to try and accomodate a misfiring Bamba.

That's not to say he's been our worst player by any means, I just think his return messed the team up at a fragile point. Really much of the blame lies at Yogis door for not managing that better.


But much of our problems stem from Yogi sticking to the same failed tactical system. Till he changes it we are going nowhere.

O'Rourke3
03-04-2010, 11:08 AM
Mostly agree with the combination, from one week to the next something changes the balance. While we all see that the formation/line-up isn't really working now, it's the way the manager wants to set up and play and it's upto the players to do that. If we start from the premis that most footballers aren't graduate material then having several different set-ups in their heads before going on to a pitch will only confuse them. If it takes time to get a team used to playing in a set formation and a set pattern then changing things half way through the season (which many are crying out for) may makes things worse - and then the balance changes again. Had we gone week to week playing, 4:3:3 then 3:5:1, then 4:4:2 then 3:3:3:1 then some other combination we'd be screaming that the manger changes set up far too often so must be clueless, and it's not helping the players.

Until Tuesday despite everything we were in with a shout of 3rd, that has to be progress.