'Tactically naive'

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is a phrase that us fans band about a lot, but what does it actually mean?

It got thrown a lot at Mixu, and now Hughes - but do us fans (and given the fans that i sit next to at ER, i wouldnt give 10p for most of their opinions) really think that we know better than guys who have worked in the business for 20 odd years?

Was Yogi 'tactically naive' yesterday, or did his players just crumble the first time things went wrong?

[18Craig75]

This is a phrase that us fans band about a lot, but what does it actually mean?

It got thrown a lot at Mixu, and now Hughes - but do us fans (and given the fans that i sit next to at ER, i wouldnt give 10p for most of their opinions) really think that we know better than guys who have worked in the business for 20 odd years?

Was Yogi 'tactically naive' yesterday, or did his players just crumble the first time things went wrong?

:top marks Agree 100%.

[Phil D. Rolls]

My starter for 10. We're holding our own against Ross County, we're 2-1 up with a half hour to go. Why did Yogi change anything? As far as I know there were no injuries.

Fair enough, he took a gamble, maybe trying to get the third, but was there any need? I think an older head would have acted different.

[Bad Martini]

This is a phrase that us fans band about a lot, but what does it actually mean?

It got thrown a lot at Mixu, and now Hughes - but do us fans (and given the fans that i sit next to at ER, i wouldnt give 10p for most of their opinions) really think that we know better than guys who have worked in the business for 20 odd years?

Was Yogi 'tactically naive' yesterday, or did his players just crumble the first time things went wrong?

I doesn't take a weatherman to tell you its pissing with rain outside.

Equally, it doesn't take a time served football "coach/manager" to spot the right tactics. It's not actually all that difficult with a modicum of forethought, planning and some common sense;

1) Pick 11 players who are fit
2) Play them in their position, the position they perform best in
3) Attempt to match the opposition in key areas and depending on the opposition strength, look to out flank and out manouevre them
4) This could be done by a number of formations but a common rule is to have a solid back, and more or less midfield or forwards depeding on the opposition strength
5) Play. If its not working for any reason, move someone. This may involve a sub. Note: Big tip here - REMOVE the player(s) who are NOT playing well - do NOT remove the key playmakers who are/could do something and do not replace with an inferior player

....the time served (life long) football fan could do a lot of the above if thats ALL it involved and its probably the part of the job, running for 90 mins which should in theory be the easier part.

IMHO, of course.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I doesn't take a weatherman to tell you its pissing with rain outside.

Equally, it doesn't take a time served football "coach/manager" to spot the right tactics. It's not actually all that difficult with a modicum of forethought, planning and some common sense;

1) Pick 11 players who are fit
2) Play them in their position, the position they perform best in
3) Attempt to match the opposition in key areas and depending on the opposition strength, look to out flank and out manouevre them
4) This could be done by a number of formations but a common rule is to have a solid back, and more or less midfield or forwards depeding on the opposition strength
5) Play. If its not working for any reason, move someone. This may involve a sub. Note: Big tip here - REMOVE the player(s) who are NOT playing well - do NOT remove the key playmakers who are/could do something and do not replace with an inferior player

....the time served (life long) football fan could do a lot of the above if thats ALL it involved and its probably the part of the job, running for 90 mins which should in theory be the easier part.

IMHO, of course.

Thats my point though mate, im not saying that managers dont make mistakes or that gambles dont pay off (i agree the Ross County game was incorrect in the decisions made), but it is patently not the case that Yogi does not have the attributes you mention.

Does our manager make tactical mistakes, of course, but is he, Mixu etc (or every manager that becomes disliked by the fans) tactically naive, or just suffering from loss of form, confidence etc?

It seems to me that it is one of those cliches banded around on boards like this that has become accepted wisdom, and that makes fans feel superior and clever, when in actual fact most fans know nothing about tactics.

People used to say it about JC, which was nonsense - he was the most tactical Hibs manager i have ever seen, and was probably too tactical, in that he asked too much of his players.

[noseyhibby]

Was Yogi 'tactically naive' yesterday, or did his players just crumble the first time things went wrong?

Both. He does not have a Plan B (Mixus biggest failing) and his players do not have a collective self belief or resolve. The very least Yogi should be able to do is set up a team to be difficult to beat (ie: Motherwell and Dundee United). Early on in the season luck played a big part in our results and we obtained victories and draws despite poor performances. The bubble had to burst, which Yogi all but predicted. Now that results and performances have turned, Yogi appears clueless to change things and sticks by his favourites in the hope that somehow they will drag a victory out from somewhere. Players are playing out of position and Yogis tactics are being pre-empted and countered on opposition training grounds. Yogi and his team has been found out big time. Early in the season rival managers were stating that Hibs were getting results against the balance of play. How true this was. Even small teams from lower divisions are able to impact in games against Hibs. It took us a dodgy first 45 minutes to come to terms with an amateur team from Ayrshire and a further 45 to just about demonstrate the quality divide.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Both. He does not have a Plan B (Mixus biggest failing) and his players do not have a collective self belief or resolve. The very least Yogi should be able to do is set up a team to be difficult to beat (ie: Motherwell and Dundee United). Early on in the season luck played a big part in our results and we obtained victories and draws despite poor performances. The bubble had to burst, which Yogi all but predicted. Now that results and performances have turned, Yogi appears clueless to change things and sticks by his favourites in the hope that somehow they will drag a victory out from somewhere. Players are playing out of position and Yogis tactics are being pre-empted and countered on opposition training grounds. Yogi and his team has been found out big time. Early in the season rival managers were stating that Hibs were getting results against the balance of play. How true this was. Even small teams from lower divisions are able to impact in games against Hibs. It took us a dodgy first 45 minutes to come to terms with an amateur team from Ayrshire and a further 45 to just about demonstrate the quality divide.

All fair enough, but the point i was making is about the use of the particular phrase as a stick with which to beat AN Hibs Manager over the head with.

I agree with your point about us being pre-empted by other teams, and i htink this is half the problem - we had an over the top reaction to the St J game, and Yogi threw out the baby with the bathwater, started chopping and changing - all of tihs i might add, which was demanded by most on here.

I just hate how on htis board, certain issues grow arms and legs, and become everyones magic bullet to the situation.

Last year it was play Yantorno, this year it has been play Galbraith, drop Rankin, get more physical, play four at the back etc etc

[Allant1981]

you only have to listen to all the so called experts on the radio to see we know as much as they do, very rarely do you get them all agreeing on something and these are guys who have all played at the highest level, just because they have played the game doesnt mean they know more about tactics than the rest of us

[loanheadhibby]

This is a phrase that us fans band about a lot, but what does it actually mean?

It got thrown a lot at Mixu, and now Hughes - but do us fans (and given the fans that i sit next to at ER, i wouldnt give 10p for most of their opinions) really think that we know better than guys who have worked in the business for 20 odd years?

Was Yogi 'tactically naive' yesterday, or did his players just crumble the first time things went wrong?

What worries me about yogi is that we were outmuscled by RC last week. We went into the lion'd den on sat but he still played 3 strikers.

Surely after all his derby experience he would know that at some stage in the 1st half we would be up against it. Why not start 451 or 442 and make us hard to beat?

I do have some sympathy with Hughes as the qualities that Rankin and McBride bring to the team is surely to work hard and close the opposition down.

Maybe the players are not good enough to carry out the managers instructions?

[Mikey]

Maybe the players are not good enough to carry out the managers instructions?

In which case he needs to come up with a formation that the players can work with.

[Jonnyboy]

An example of a fan spotting a tactical error seemingly missed by Yogi

At Tynecastle he played Murray in the centre of defence and Stevenson at left back, despite the fact that it was fairly common knowledge Hearts would be going with an inexperienced strike pair. Tactically IMO he should have played Hanlon beside Bamba and Murray at left back or at the very least have changed it once he saw Glen and Obua were the strike pair.

[Littlest Hobo]

An example of a fan spotting a tactical error seemingly missed by Yogi

At Tynecastle he played Murray in the centre of defence and Stevenson at left back, despite the fact that it was fairly common knowledge Hearts would be going with an inexperienced strike pair. Tactically IMO he should have played Hanlon beside Bamba and Murray at left back or at the very least have changed it once he saw Glen and Obua were the strike pair.

:top marks:agree:

[18Craig75]

An example of a fan spotting a tactical error seemingly missed by Yogi

At Tynecastle he played Murray in the centre of defence and Stevenson at left back, despite the fact that it was fairly common knowledge Hearts would be going with an inexperienced strike pair. Tactically IMO he should have played Hanlon beside Bamba and Murray at left back or at the very least have changed it once he saw Glen and Obua were the strike pair.

Hanlon was injured. He was only on the bench to make up the numbers. I was thinking the same at the time though.

[Jonnyboy]

Hanlon was injured. He was only on the bench to make up the numbers. I was thinking the same at the time though.

Well in that case he could have played McCormack who is by all accounts a centre half by trade :wink:

We missed the drive of Murray on the left and poor Lewis got pelters which was not always fair IMO. He was entitled to think that Rankin, as left midfielder, would be available for an out ball but all too often Ranks was doing what he generally does and that was running about all over the place and forgetting what his primary job was.

[Brizo]

This is a phrase that us fans band about a lot, but what does it actually mean?

It got thrown a lot at Mixu, and now Hughes - but do us fans (and given the fans that i sit next to at ER, i wouldnt give 10p for most of their opinions) really think that we know better than guys who have worked in the business for 20 odd years?

Was Yogi 'tactically naive' yesterday, or did his players just crumble the first time things went wrong?

Im sure weve all gone to restaurants , cinemas , gigs and come out criticising the product. But noone ever turns on the critic and says youve never been a chef /film director / guitarist. However criticise a fitba manager in tinternet world and you'll instantly be asked who youve managed :faf:

Fitbas not rocket science its a simple game with relatively simple rules. Thats why everyone has an opinion and why everyone thinks theres is valid. As a previous poster has said you only have to listen to the so called experts in the media to know that they have no great tactical insights but spout out the same old cliches ie get in their faces :blah::blah:

When it goes right managers often get too much credit for "tactics" , when it goes wrong fans valid criticisms are too often dismissed by the show us your medals mentality.

[18Craig75]

Well in that case he could have played McCormack who is by all accounts a centre half by trade :wink:

We missed the drive of Murray on the left and poor Lewis got pelters which was not always fair IMO. He was entitled to think that Rankin, as left midfielder, would be available for an out ball but all too often Ranks was doing what he generally does and that was running about all over the place and forgetting what his primary job was.

The same Darren McCormack that people wanted kicked out the club a few weeks ago? I just think it's impossible to please everyone all the time! I'm sure Lewis wouldn't have taken 'pelters' if he was actually able to beat a man or at least play a forward pass!

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

This is a phrase that us fans band about a lot, but what does it actually mean?

It got thrown a lot at Mixu, and now Hughes - but do us fans (and given the fans that i sit next to at ER, i wouldnt give 10p for most of their opinions) really think that we know better than guys who have worked in the business for 20 odd years?

Was Yogi 'tactically naive' yesterday, or did his players just crumble the first time things went wrong?


What I don't get is when we go three up front and the three are Deeks, Benji and Stokes. That is like going a man down cos Stokes is just wasted away out on the right. Not as obviously wrong as last season's Fletcher in midfield, but arguably just as unproductive.

[Toaods]

I crticised Mixu from an early stage and was totally justified in doing so.

I rarely called him tactically naieve, the term I used was inept, as there was no indication this was some innocent who might twig as to what was going on.

I await any sign in mid-game that Yogi is not of a broadly similar nature.

[erskine-hibby]

I crticised Mixu from an early stage and was totally justified in doing so.

I rarely called him tactically naieve, the term I used was inept, as there was no indication this was some innocent who might twig as to what was going on.

I await any sign in mid-game that Yogi is not of a broadly similar nature.

I hope you are wrong about that, though I fear you could be right.