question for anyone planning on voting labour or tory in the election

[AgentDaleCooper]

how much worse would these parties have to get to loose your support?

:confused:

[Dashing Bob S]

how much worse would these parties have to get to loose your support?

:confused:

That is a brilliant question ADC, and one which everyone should be asking themselves. We've been made into passive drones by this 'Old Firm' of politics. As Rantic represent a sectarian status quo in football, so to do Labcon with their right-wing, pro-business, globalised consumer capitalism, wage-slavery and ghetto drug-ridden underclass consensus. I can't really see how deeper into the politics of fear, social neglect, and economic rip-offs of behalf of the super-rich, those hideous parties can possibly get, though to be fair to them, they always surprise me with their stunning ingenuity of these fronts.

Never supported the Tories at all, never supported Labour since Blair became PM.

[Leicester Fan]

A bit of a generalisation I know but;

The difference between right and left, labour/conservative is that the left want to run your life. You want someone to mind your kids then they have to approve them first. You want to employ someone then you must find out what religion they are, what sex they prefer to sleep with. Labour run 100s of campaigns telling you how to live our lives that most of us quite rightly completely ignore.

The Tories on the other hands don't want to know. Live your own life, if you succeed great if you fail that's your problem.It can be harsh but I'd rather be master of my own destiny.

[Jack]

Probably until the other parties show themselves to be a credible alternative.

[Beefster]

how much worse would these parties have to get to loose your support?

:confused:

Tell me what you mean by 'worse' and I might be able to answer? Worse than who/what?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Probably until the other parties show themselves to be a credible alternative.

to use dashing bob's analogy, that's a bit like saying "i'll support rangers/celtic 'till the other teams show they can win the title" - it's self defeating.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Tell me what you mean by 'worse' and I might be able to answer? Worse than who/what?

surely you would agree they have gone way down hill (some might disagree but i'd say since thatcher, but certainly since blair), if even only in comparison to themselves. the parties in the 50s/60s had

the two parties barely stand for anything anymore, all they're interested in is winning the election - they'll say ANYTHING to win votes. all presentation, no product. full of career politicians, noone with any real clout that's there because of any real political convictions.

[Beefster]

surely you would agree they have gone way down hill (some might disagree but i'd say since thatcher, but certainly since blair), if even only in comparison to themselves. the parties in the 50s/60s had

the two parties barely stand for anything anymore, all they're interested in is winning the election - they'll say ANYTHING to win votes. all presentation, no product. full of career politicians, noone with any real clout that's there because of any real political convictions.

Both of them are talking about tax rises and public spending cuts so I'm not sure how that's saying anything to win power. You might kid yourself otherwise but all political parties say things in a bid to maximise their votes.

Labour are 'worse' than 1997/2001/2005 whereas the Tories are better than 1997/2001/2005. But yes, both parties are 'worse' than they have been at some point in the past.

[J-C]

I've voted SNP since I became 18, so the question doesn't really concern me. I've seen both parties rule for many years now and they both seem incapable of bringing to the country what they actually say in their manifesto's.

[Jack]

to use dashing bob's analogy, that's a bit like saying "i'll support rangers/celtic 'till the other teams show they can win the title" - it's self defeating.

TBH I dont think so. Football is not the same as politics at all. Goal!

[Hainan Hibs]

A large section of Labour supporters in Scotland would vote for a chimp wearing a red Labour badge. The old "well my dad voted for them and his dad voted for them" mentality.

Labour and Conservatives are pretty much the same now. They will throw away any values they have to gain a few more middle England votes.

[Big Ed]

A bit of a generalisation I know but;

The difference between right and left, labour/conservative is that the left want to run your life. You want someone to mind your kids then they have to approve them first. You want to employ someone then you must find out what religion they are, what sex they prefer to sleep with. Labour run 100s of campaigns telling you how to live our lives that most of us quite rightly completely ignore.

The Tories on the other hands don't want to know. Live your own life, if you succeed great if you fail that's your problem.It can be harsh but I'd rather be master of my own destiny.

You are right. It is a bit of a generalisation.
I won’t be voting for either Labour or Conservative at the next election but the way you are talking, I must be off my head for not marking an ‘X’ next to the Tory candidate.
Don’t the Tories advocate new legislation? Because if they really didn’t give a **** how you lived your life, then there would be no need to meddle in it with pesky laws.

[lucky]

still will be voting Labour. Even though candidate is an arse and will be lobby for for the whips. I just don't want independence. wee Eck has done nothing since he came into power in Edinburgh. The choice is straight forward Labour or the Tories. Cant trust SNP as they were the ones who voted to bring down the Government, which gave us the Thatcher years. For those too young to remember wait and see what the Tories do to our communities and public services

[steakbake]

still will be voting Labour. Even though candidate is an arse and will be lobby for for the whips. I just don't want independence. wee Eck has done nothing since he came into power in Edinburgh. The choice is straight forward Labour or the Tories. Cant trust SNP as they were the ones who voted to bring down the Government, which gave us the Thatcher years. For those too young to remember wait and see what the Tories do to our communities and public services

That old Labour party chestnut.

So the SNP brought down Callahan and I suppose it was their fault that Labour got beaten at the General Election? Why was there a no confidence vote in the first place? Because Labour cheated and gerrymandered the home rule referendum, by losing their nerve. 40% was the figure which brought down Labour. There has never been a Labour government elected by a full 40% of the british electorate, yet they applied those rules to the referendum for the scottish assembly. Treachery repaid, I think I would see it as. I also remember that the Liberals pulled out of the coalition with Labour the year before. So are the Liberals not also to "blame" for Thatcher?

Losing the election in 79 was nothing at all to do with the fact that Labour had run out of ideas, had pissed the country's money up the wall and fallen out with the unions that normally support them to such a point that they were holding the government to ransome and the winter of discontent? No.. of course it was the SNP who delivered Thatcher.

Just like Labour now, they'll blame anything on everyone else (global financial crisis, anyone) apart from themselves.

The folklore that some people live with... :rolleyes:

[Hainan Hibs]

still will be voting Labour. Even though candidate is an arse and will be lobby for for the whips. I just don't want independence. wee Eck has done nothing since he came into power in Edinburgh. The choice is straight forward Labour or the Tories. Cant trust SNP as they were the ones who voted to bring down the Government, which gave us the Thatcher years. For those too young to remember wait and see what the Tories do to our communities and public services

Sorry but that's not right. The SNP may have not delivered on things such as class sizes but they have delivered many things. One thing big enough for me was the scrapping of the graduate endowment meaning I won't have a 2 grand charge at the end of my degree.

[Leicester Fan]

You are right. It is a bit of a generalisation.
I won’t be voting for either Labour or Conservative at the next election but the way you are talking, I must be off my head for not marking an ‘X’ next to the Tory candidate.

Not really. Some people expect the govt to run their life from cradle to grave. If that's what you believe then you should vote Labour. It's just that trust my opinion about my life more than some faceless bureacrat.



Don’t the Tories advocate new legislation? Because if they really didn’t give a **** how you lived your life, then there would be no need to meddle in it with pesky laws.

Obviously some new laws are always needed to cope with changing circumstances but Labour has introduced thousands of new laws when in most cases all that was needed was enforce existing laws.

[Big Ed]

Not really. Some people expect the govt to run their life from cradle to grave. If that's what you believe then you should vote Labour. It's just that trust my opinion about my life more than some faceless bureacrat.



Obviously some new laws are always needed to cope with changing circumstances but Labour has introduced thousands of new laws when in most cases all that was needed was enforce existing laws.

Your first reply is a bit more considered than your original point, but I often think that expressions like "faceless bureacrat" are simplistic ways of trying to demonise people whose job it is to uphold public functions. The impression being that they get a kick out of f***ing over ordinary people by being given a position of power. By and large I think that's pretty unfair.
Your second point regarding the need to enforce existing laws - I couldn't agree more.

[Bookkeeper]

still will be voting Labour. Even though candidate is an arse and will be lobby for for the whips. I just don't want independence. wee Eck has done nothing since he came into power in Edinburgh. The choice is straight forward Labour or the Tories. Cant trust SNP as they were the ones who voted to bring down the Government, which gave us the Thatcher years. For those too young to remember wait and see what the Tories do to our communities and public services

Surely a lighter touch by government is a good thing. As someone said above, labour has brought in too many new laws with all their associated costs to implement.

Never have and probably never will vote for the "rantic" of politics.

[Leicester Fan]

Your first reply is a bit more considered than your original point, but I often think that expressions like "faceless bureacrat" are simplistic ways of trying to demonise people whose job it is to uphold public functions. The impression being that they get a kick out of f***ing over ordinary people by being given a position of power. By and large I think that's pretty unfair.


That's not what I said and I'm not sure how you could read that into my answer.
I don't doubt that a lot of these bureacrats mean well .Just like I'm sure most labour politicians think they are doing the right thing. It's just that I think their solutions are wrong and tend to make things worse.

[hibeenicol]

Will still be voting labour. Any vote for snp is basiclly a vote for the tories.
And I don't want them in.

[Woody1985]

Will still be voting labour. Any vote for snp is basiclly a vote for the tories.
And I don't want them in.

This sums up everything that is wrong with politics in this country for me.

Lets vote for the ones that are slightly less **** than the other.

Voting should be about voting for the people who will drive the country forward and make it a better place, however, that party may not exist. :boo hoo:

[Ed De Gramo]

I usually just vote for the hot lassie party :wink:

[SHODAN]

A bit of a generalisation I know but;

The difference between right and left, labour/conservative is that the left want to run your life. You want someone to mind your kids then they have to approve them first. You want to employ someone then you must find out what religion they are, what sex they prefer to sleep with. Labour run 100s of campaigns telling you how to live our lives that most of us quite rightly completely ignore.

The Tories on the other hands don't want to know. Live your own life, if you succeed great if you fail that's your problem.It can be harsh but I'd rather be master of my own destiny.

Bollocks.

Moving on, I'll be voting Labour. Lesser of two evils and nationalism is crazy, not from a patriotic but economic stance.

[allmodcons]

Will still be voting labour. Any vote for snp is basiclly a vote for the tories.
And I don't want them in.

Yet another old Labour Party chestnut. What's your evidence for such a ridiculous statement ?

[Pete]

I just wish socialism hadn't ****ed itself up because it's resulted in no meaningful movement or party worth anything any more.

The gap between the rich and poor is widening by the year, pensioners are freezing to death, The Inland revenue is hammering the working class because they're skint, there's a 30 year waiting list for a council house and we're doing nothing about it but voting for Rangers or Celtic...who are basically two cheeks of the same erse.

We've become a nation of pathetic, mindless sheep.

[allmodcons]

Bollocks.

Moving on, I'll be voting Labour. Lesser of two evils and nationalism is crazy, not from a patriotic but economic stance.

What makes you think the Scots couldn't run their own economy in a successful manner ?

Perhaps we're too stupid ?

Maybe we need our dominant neighbour to tell us what to do ?

There is good economic case to be made for Scotland going it alone.

You don't have to believe all the soundbites from Brown and Murphy about the big 'scary' fiscal deficit we'd have as an Independent state.

Soundbites, incidentally, made all the more laughable, by the fact that Brown has presided over the biggest UK fiscal debt of all time.

Brilliant economics eh!!!

[heretoday]

There's no one left to vote for. I quite like Vince Cable but Clegg is uninspiring.

I might vote SNP because of their anti-war stance and general social democratic type policies.

I don't agree with Scottish Independence though!

Que faire, alors?

[allmodcons]

I just wish socialism hadn't ****ed itself up because it's resulted in no meaningful movement or party worth anything any more.

The gap between the rich and poor is widening by the year, pensioners are freezing to death, The Inland revenue is hammering the working class because they're skint, there's a 30 year waiting list for a council house and we're doing nothing about it but voting for Rangers or Celtic...who are basically two cheeks of the same erse.

We've become a nation of pathetic, mindless sheep.

:agree: Totally. Blair moved New Labour so far to the right in order to obtain power there's nothing to differentiate the Labour Party from the Tories anymore.

[Woody1985]

What makes you think the Scots couldn't run their own economy in a successful manner ?

Perhaps we're too stupid ?

Maybe we need our dominant neighbour to tell us what to do ?

There is good economic case to be made for Scotland going it alone.

You don't have to believe all the soundbites from Brown and Murphy about the big 'scary' fiscal deficit we'd have as an Independent state.

Soundbites, incidentally, made all the more laughable, by the fact that Brown has presided over the biggest UK fiscal debt of all time.

Brilliant economics eh!!!

Where is this case?

I'd like to see it.

[hibeenicol]

Yet another old Labour Party chestnut. What's your evidence for such a ridiculous statement ?

Well if in my constituency everyone votes SNP and labour lose there seat, there is no danger Snp are going to get into power so basiclly labour have lost a seat when the tories havnae bringing it very close between the tories and labour. No?

[allmodcons]

Well if in my constituency everyone votes SNP and labour lose there seat, there is no danger Snp are going to get into power so basiclly labour have lost a seat when the tories havnae bringing it very close between the tories and labour. No?

Funny that eh! In my constituency a vote for Labour might let the Tories in ahead of the SNP.

Of course, you said any vote for the SNP was a wasted vote.

Presumably, you meant a vote for the SNP in your constituency?

PS - FTTP voting system. Total joke.

[allmodcons]

Where is this case?

I'd like to see it.

Take off the blinkers Woody. Stop believing all the crap about who we're not fit or clever enough to run our own economy.

Some bedtime reading for you!!!!

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/Blogs/StephenMaxwell-051107.asp (http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/Blogs/StephenMaxwell-051107.asp)

[--------]

Tell me what you mean by 'worse' and I might be able to answer? Worse than who/what?


More cynical?

More arrogant?

More manipulative?

More corrupt?

Bigger liars?

Deeper into the pockets of business?

More contemptuous of the electorate?

More hypocritical?

That do for a start?


(Though to be fair, I wouldn't be so naive as to suggest that the politicians from the smaller parties don't share the same capacity for self-serving, self-seeking greed as Brown and Cameron and their cronies do.)

[Beefster]

Take off the blinkers Woody. Stop believing all the crap about who we're not fit or clever enough to run our own economy.

Some bedtime reading for you!!!!

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/Blogs/StephenMaxwell-051107.asp (http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/Blogs/StephenMaxwell-051107.asp)

Has there ever been a truly independent report on the pros and cons of Scotland going it alone?

As far as I remember, everything I've ever read has come from one camp or the either.

[CraigK]

to use dashing bob's analogy, that's a bit like saying "i'll support rangers/celtic 'till the other teams show they can win the title" - it's self defeating.

My Dad's like that, voted Labour since Harold Wilson was leader, hated Blair so i asked him "why not vote Green/SSP/SNP/Lib Dems as they more closely mirror your views?" To which he replied "there's no point, they wont win".

It's such a self defeating attitude which is perpetuated by the big two in their "vote for us or you'll get Brown/Cameron as PM" scare tactics.

[allmodcons]

Has there ever been a truly independent report on the pros and cons of Scotland going it alone?

As far as I remember, everything I've ever read has come from one camp or the either.

:agree: Beefster. What I said earlier was that a good case could be made for Scotland going it alone.

Personally, I'm always intrigued as to how countries of a similar size to Scotland like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark & Switzerland manage their own economies.

Must just be more clever than us thick Scots!

[Leicester Fan]

Bollocks.


Same to you.:take that

[hibsbollah]

Has there ever been a truly independent report on the pros and cons of Scotland going it alone?

As far as I remember, everything I've ever read has come from one camp or the either.

The answer is no. The reason is is that its an impossible question to answer, there are far too many imponderables.

It annoys me when people explain their position on independence from a solely economic position. Whatever happened to identity making a difference?:confused:

[Leicester Fan]

Nationality is just an accident of birth. Why do people think that where you are born makes you different?

[twiceinathens]

The question assumes that voters make a positive analysis of the situation before balancing the relative merits of parties and casting their votes. I would suggest that when a government changes it is a question of the incumbents losing rather than the opposiition winning. Sooner or later the floating voters in a limited number of constituencies become discontented with the leading party and reject them for something different i.e. a negative reaction to the status quo rather than a positive belief merits of the alternative.

[Beefster]

The answer is no. The reason is is that its an impossible question to answer, there are far too many imponderables.

It annoys me when people explain their position on independence from a solely economic position. Whatever happened to identity making a difference?:confused:

Because 'identity' is way down on the list of Joe Public's list of priorities and doesn't have an impact on day-to-day life?

[hibsbollah]

Because 'identity' is way down on the list of Joe Public's list of priorities and doesn't have an impact on day-to-day life?

Who is this 'Joe Public' blokey and where does he live?

If you think someones identity (culture, nationality, upbringing, family, moral code, i could go on) doesnt have 'an impact on day-to-day life), I suggest you think again.

[allmodcons]

The answer is no. The reason is is that its an impossible question to answer, there are far too many imponderables.

It annoys me when people explain their position on independence from a solely economic position. Whatever happened to identity making a difference?:confused:

:agree: Identity should make a difference, however, if the SNP is ever going to get us to full Independence the ecomonic case has to be credible.

Big problem and, indeed major hurdle,for the SNP is the pro Unionist media and the incessant tripe coming from all 3 main parties that Scotland would be some kind of economic basket case if we went it alone. If you tell the people something often enough...............

Personally, I'd vote SNP even if the econoimc case wasn't that good and IMO an Independent Scotland would have a more 'left of centre minded' Government because I believe that Scots have a different set of core values from our English neighbours, especially, those in the SE of England.

So yes, identity does and indeed should matter.

[Beefster]

Who is this 'Joe Public' blokey and where does he live?

If you think someones identity (culture, nationality, upbringing, family, moral code, i could go on) doesnt have 'an impact on day-to-day life), I suggest you think again.

I'll give you culture at a push but how will upbringing, family, moral code and more benefit from an independent Scotland? Have they benefited from devolution?

If experts are struggling to make the economic case, I'd have thought that these would have been even tougher to quantify.

[hibsbollah]

how will upbringing, family, moral code and more benefit from an independent Scotland? Have they benefited from devolution?


You're flapping about:faf: You said 'identity' (as defined) "doesnt have an impact on day to day life", and "is way down on the list of Joe Public's list of priorities" . I'm saying you're wrong. Have you changed your mind?

[lucky]

:agree: Identity should make a difference, however, if the SNP is ever going to get us to full Independence the ecomonic case has to be credible.

Big problem and, indeed major hurdle,for the SNP is the pro Unionist media and the incessant tripe coming from all 3 main parties that Scotland would be some kind of economic basket case if we went it alone. If you tell the people something often enough...............

Personally, I'd vote SNP even if the economic case wasn't that good and IMO an Independent Scotland would have a more 'left of centre minded' Government because I believe that Scots have a different set of core values from our English neighbours, especially, those in the SE of England.

So yes, identity does and indeed should matter.

SNP left of center, that's a laugh. Check their voting record at westminster. They have voted with the Tories 66% of the time with Wee Eck even higher.
Scotland is a more left wing in nature than England but that has never been the SNPs views. The Nats are a broad church with many different political views but they all come together under the independence argument. But left of center never

[Beefster]

You're flapping about:faf: You said 'identity' (as defined) "doesnt have an impact on day to day life", and "is way down on the list of Joe Public's list of priorities" . I'm saying you're wrong. Have you changed your mind?

It depends on how you're defining 'identity'. I took it differently, you clarified how you intended it, I accepted that and asked for some more justification.

In case you've missed it, I'm not actually arguing with you - only trying to get your views. Feel free to accuse me of 'flapping' if it helps though.

[hibsbollah]

It depends on how you're defining 'identity'. I took it differently, you clarified how you intended it, I accepted that and asked for some more justification.

In case you've missed it, I'm not actually arguing with you - only trying to get your views. Feel free to accuse me of 'flapping' if it helps though.

OK, my position is that when people explain their position on independence from a solely economic position, it rings hollow because there are too many unknowns to know what the impact of independence would be on Scotlands fiscal or macroeconomic position. Debate it on the basis of your gut feeling. allmodcons makes a good job of it in the post above; he feels scottish core values chime more closely with his values than those of england, hence he supports independence. ( as it happens, you could make an argument for typical scottish virtues of conservatism and prudence, and Adam Smiths heritage chiming closely with traditional Tory values as well).

If you like the Union, say why you like it.

[hibsbollah]

nationalism is crazy, not from a patriotic but economic stance.

Why do you think that?

"as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know". Donald Rumsfeld 2002

[allmodcons]

SNP left of center, that's a laugh. Check their voting record at westminster. They have voted with the Tories 66% of the time with Wee Eck even higher.
Scotland is a more left wing in nature than England but that has never been the SNPs views. The Nats are a broad church with many different political views but they all come together under the independence argument. But left of center never

You should read posts before reponding to them.

I said IMO an Independent Scotland would be more left of centre minded. Reason = most Scots think/vote that way.

I never said the SNP was left of centre, that's another argument.

You then go on to completely ruin you're own argument by saying the Nats are a broad church. This is, of course, correct and explains why myself and many other left of centre minded individuals are members of the SNP.

[lucky]

But the leadership of the SNP are more right of center. An independant scoland will be more left wing but not under the SNP. That was the point your were making. Independence is not going to lead to more left wing polices but the removal of Wee Eck and his cronnies will give scotland a chance

[steakbake]

But the leadership of the SNP are more right of center. An independant scoland will be more left wing but not under the SNP. That was the point your were making. Independence is not going to lead to more left wing polices but the removal of Wee Eck and his cronnies will give scotland a chance

Do you still blame the SNP for Thatcher, or do you blame the liberals who left the coalition and therefore weakened the government the year before or do you blame the Labour party for messing up and being beaten fair and square by the voters who turned to Thatcher?

You didn't answer that point. I'm interested how Labour folklore deals with that.

[New Corrie]

how much worse would these parties have to get to loose your support?

:confused:

I would vote for either of them before voting for a party whose very fibre is built around racial hatred and that is why we will always remain part of the Union. the Nats have been well found out, emptying prisons and continuing to blame the English for everything!! Tossers, the party is over for them, they had their chance!

[Hainan Hibs]

I would vote for either of them before voting for a party whose very fibre is built around racial hatred and that is why we will always remain part of the Union. the Nats have been well found out, emptying prisons and continuing to blame the English for everything!! Tossers, the party is over for them, they had their chance!

:faf:

Always cracking the jokes, fantastic:thumbsup:

[allmodcons]

But the leadership of the SNP are more right of center. An independant scoland will be more left wing but not under the SNP. That was the point your were making. Independence is not going to lead to more left wing polices but the removal of Wee Eck and his cronnies will give scotland a chance

As I said in my earlier post the political position of the SNP is another argument altogther.

FWIW the 'broad church' that is the SNP is a social democratic left of centre party and, for that matter so, is Alex Salmond (it would be a good idea for you to do some web surfing on the SNP '79 group - AS was a founding member and was even expelled by the party for being a 'leftie').

You should also check out SNP policies before having a go at them based on their voting record against a right of centre New Labour Government. Here's a wee sample, are these poilcies not left of centre:-

No to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
No to the renewal of Trident WMD
No new council house sales
A progressive tax system based on ability to pay

If you need anymore convincing you can check out their manifestos at www.snp.org (http://www.snp.org)

[allmodcons]

I would vote for either of them before voting for a party whose very fibre is built around racial hatred and that is why we will always remain part of the Union. the Nats have been well found out, emptying prisons and continuing to blame the English for everything!! Tossers, the party is over for them, they had their chance!

Great post.

You must have put a great amount of thought into it - 'racists' and 'tossers' :faf:.

I take it you're sitting on your brain whilst typing.

[New Corrie]

Great post.

You must have put a great amount of thought into it - 'racists' and 'tossers' :faf:.

I take it you're sitting on your brain whilst typing.

And I take it you are going to be fool enough to tell me that there is no "English hatred" within the SNP?

[New Corrie]

As I said in my earlier post the political position of the SNP is another argument altogther.

FWIW the 'broad church' that is the SNP is a social democratic left of centre party and, for that matter so, is Alex Salmond (it would be a good idea for you to do some web surfing on the SNP '79 group - AS was a founding member and was even expelled by the party for being a 'leftie').

You should also check out SNP policies before having a go at them based on their voting record against a right of centre New Labour Government. Here's a wee sample, are these poilcies not left of centre:-

No to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
No to the renewal of Trident WMD
No new council house sales
A progressive tax system based on ability to pay

If you need anymore convincing you can check out their manifestos at www.snp.org (http://www.snp.org)

Does that include Scottish Watch and Settler Watch?

[allmodcons]

And I take it you are going to be fool enough to tell me that there is no "English hatred" within the SNP?

Sorry CG I'm too busy being a racist tosser to answer any of your questions!

[New Corrie]

Sorry CG I'm too busy being a racist tosser to answer any of your questions!


That's fine, I can wait......This is got be the Holy Ground at it's best, I mean really....Posters suggesting that the SNP aren't racist, i've heard it all now! Priceless!

[ballengeich]

That's fine, I can wait......This is got be the Holy Ground at it's best, I mean really....Posters suggesting that the SNP aren't racist, i've heard it all now! Priceless!

There are fringe nationalist groups that are racist, but the mainstream is not and includes Scots of various colours and a number of non-Scots who have come to live in our country and believe it should be independent - my English brother-in-law is one who has not encountered the racism you allege. If you believe the SNP is racist please back this up with evidence from party policy. (A few quotes from lunatic extremists will not do.)

[New Corrie]

There are fringe nationalist groups that are racist, but the mainstream is not and includes Scots of various colours and a number of non-Scots who have come to live in our country and believe it should be independent - my English brother-in-law is one who has not encountered the racism you allege. If you believe the SNP is racist please back this up with evidence from party policy. (A few quotes from lunatic extremists will not do.)

Thankyou for confirming that, it seems like hating the English is somehow an acceptable form of racism

[Beefster]

OK, my position is that when people explain their position on independence from a solely economic position, it rings hollow because there are too many unknowns to know what the impact of independence would be on Scotlands fiscal or macroeconomic position. Debate it on the basis of your gut feeling. allmodcons makes a good job of it in the post above; he feels scottish core values chime more closely with his values than those of england, hence he supports independence. ( as it happens, you could make an argument for typical scottish virtues of conservatism and prudence, and Adam Smiths heritage chiming closely with traditional Tory values as well).

If you like the Union, say why you like it.

It's not so much that I like the union per se. It's more that it's the way things are, it's working fine for Scotland (in my opinion) and without some sort of convincing argument for why we should separate, I don't see why.

If the nationalists want independence, they're going to have to convince the nation of the merits.

[New Corrie]

It's not so much that I like the union per se. It's more that it's the way things are, it's working fine for Scotland (in my opinion) and without some sort of convincing argument for why we should separate, I don't see why.

If the nationalists want independence, they're going to have to convince the nation of the merits.


The fat Jambo tried that with his "arc of prosperity" and we all know what happened to that.

[ballengeich]

Thankyou for confirming that, it seems like hating the English is somehow an acceptable form of racism

I didn't confirm it and do not accept any kind of racism. I was pointing out to you that the SNP should not be judged by the actions of some racist lunatics who are not its representatives. I challenged you to show any racism in SNP policy and you have not done so.

[Betty Boop]

'Ask The Chancellors' just started on Channel 4.

[marinello59]

'Ask The Chancellors' just started on Channel 4.

I just can't take Darling seriously, every time I hear his name Blackadder goes Forth springs to mind.

[hibsbollah]

I just can't take Darling seriously, every time I hear his name Blackadder goes Forth springs to mind.

He dyes his eyebrows. Theres just something inherently creepy about that. Cable has the best policies but unfortunately wont be in Government.

[GlesgaeHibby]

SNP left of center, that's a laugh. Check their voting record at westminster. They have voted with the Tories 66% of the time with Wee Eck even higher.
Scotland is a more left wing in nature than England but that has never been the SNPs views. The Nats are a broad church with many different political views but they all come together under the independence argument. But left of center never

I'd argue that the SNP are left of centre. Look at the policies they have implemented/tried to implement since coming to power:

-Local Income Tax based on ability to pay
-Abolition of graduate endownment making University education free in Scotland
-Abolition of prescription charges
-Protection of localised health services
-More free nursery places for 3 and 4 year olds
-Scrapping of unfair bridge tolls
-Help to small businesses

[Beefster]

The fat Jambo tried that with his "arc of prosperity" and we all know what happened to that.

Salmond has scored a spectacular own goal......

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article7082116.ece

Has barely sat in Westminster for years and will continue to be an MSP and First Minister, yet will accept in excess of £60,000 for 'retiring' as an MP.

Inexcusable.

[allmodcons]

Salmond has scored a spectacular own goal......

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article7082116.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article7082116.ece)

Has barely sat in Westminster for years and will continue to be an MSP and First Minister, yet will accept in excess of £60,000 for 'retiring' as an MP.

Inexcusable.

Take off the blinkers and get real Beefster.

This is just the usual guff from the Unionist Times.

This is a guy who donates ALL of his MSP salary to a charitable trust and has already stated that a large portion of the Westminster £60,000 will go to the same trust.

Name one other MP/MSP who does this ?

If you want 'inexcusable' greed and corruption try the Tories/Labour at Wesminster. I seem to recall 1 or 2 or them are so corrupt they're facing charges.

[Betty Boop]

Lest we forget. The 20th anniversary of the Poll Tax Riots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8589913.stm

[Beefster]

Take off the blinkers and get real Beefster.

This is just the usual guff from the Unionist Times.

This is a guy who donates ALL of his MSP salary to a charitable trust and has already stated that a large portion of the Westminster £60,000 will go to the same trust.

Name one other MP/MSP who does this ?

If you want 'inexcusable' greed and corruption try the Tories/Labour at Wesminster. I seem to recall 1 or 2 or them are so corrupt they're facing charges.

I can see corruption/greed, irrespective of party politics. I won't defend any politician guilty of it.

As nice as it is that SOME of the money will go to charity, Salmond isn't giving the money to charity, we are. It's easy to give £18k to charity at the tax-payers expense every year when you're pulling in 3 salaries from the taxpayer. Do you think he'll continue that arrangement when one of the salaries disappears in May?

Seems that at least one SNP supporter agrees with me....

http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2010/03/and-sent-him-homewards-tae-think-again.html

[allmodcons]

I can see corruption/greed, irrespective of party politics. I won't defend any politician guilty of it.

As nice as it is that SOME of the money will go to charity, Salmond isn't giving the money to charity, we are. It's easy to give £18k to charity at the tax-payers expense every year when you're pulling in 3 salaries from the taxpayer. Do you think he'll continue that arrangement when one of the salaries disappears in May?

Seems that at least one SNP supporter agrees with me....

http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2010/03/and-sent-him-homewards-tae-think-again.html (http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2010/03/and-sent-him-homewards-tae-think-again.html)

Can you answer my original question?

Name one other politician who's donated his MSP salary to a charitable trust whilst still claiming an MP's wage.

Did Donald Dewar do it?

Did Jim Wallace do it?

[Beefster]

Can you answer my original question?

Name one other politician who's donated his MSP salary to a charitable trust whilst still claiming an MP's wage.

Did Donald Dewar do it?

Did Jim Wallace do it?

I've no idea. They probably took the resettlement allowance too. Still doesn't make it acceptable.

I read earlier he was claiming £800 a month in food from the Houses of Commons (all without the need for receipts obviously) while barely attending that Parliament. He's no better than the rest of them by any stretch of the imagination.

[Leicester Fan]

Lest we forget. The 20th anniversary of the Poll Tax Riots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8589913.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8589913.stm)
That'd never happen under Labour.


They'd tap your e-mails and arrest you on the way to the demo.

[marinello59]

Take off the blinkers and get real Beefster.

This is just the usual guff from the Unionist Times.

This is a guy who donates ALL of his MSP salary to a charitable trust and has already stated that a large portion of the Westminster £60,000 will go to the same trust.
Name one other MP/MSP who does this ?

If you want 'inexcusable' greed and corruption try the Tories/Labour at Wesminster. I seem to recall 1 or 2 or them are so corrupt they're facing charges.

So he is better because he donates our money to a charitable trust of his choosing? Why take the 60k in the first place? And what does a 'large portion actually mean? 50K - 40K- 30K - 20K ???? It still stinks.
Yes, we have Labour and Tory MP's with their noses in the trough. Two wrongs don't make a right, Salmond should have made sure he was whiter than white on this.

[Betty Boop]

So he is better because he donates our money to a charitable trust of his choosing? Why take the 60k in the first place? And what does a 'large portion actually mean? 50K - 40K- 30K - 20K ???? It still stinks.
Yes, we have Labour and Tory MP's with their noses in the trough. Two wrongs don't make a right, Salmond should have made sure he was whiter than white on this.

:agree: The Mary Salmond Trust.

[ancienthibby]

:agree: The Mary Salmond Trust.

If you are trying to make a connection to his wife, well that didnae work!!

Her name is not Mary!!:greengrin

[marinello59]

If you are trying to make a connection to his wife, well that didnae work!!

Her name is not Mary!!:greengrin

Correct , it's his deceased Mother.
And the money is for youth projects based in his own constituency area. Which is good for his local popularity.

[Betty Boop]

Chris Grayling shadow Home Secretary, thinks it is acceptable for Band B owners and hoteliers to turn away gay couples. Another own goal from the Tories! :bye:

[Beefster]

Chris Grayling shadow Home Secretary, thinks it is acceptable for Band B owners and hoteliers to turn away gay couples. Another own goal from the Tories! :bye:

I'm not defending what he actually said but he said it wasn't acceptable for hoteliers to do it.

[One Day Soon]

That old Labour party chestnut.

So the SNP brought down Callahan and I suppose it was their fault that Labour got beaten at the General Election? Why was there a no confidence vote in the first place? Because Labour cheated and gerrymandered the home rule referendum, by losing their nerve. 40% was the figure which brought down Labour. There has never been a Labour government elected by a full 40% of the british electorate, yet they applied those rules to the referendum for the scottish assembly. Treachery repaid, I think I would see it as. I also remember that the Liberals pulled out of the coalition with Labour the year before. So are the Liberals not also to "blame" for Thatcher?

Losing the election in 79 was nothing at all to do with the fact that Labour had run out of ideas, had pissed the country's money up the wall and fallen out with the unions that normally support them to such a point that they were holding the government to ransome and the winter of discontent? No.. of course it was the SNP who delivered Thatcher.

Just like Labour now, they'll blame anything on everyone else (global financial crisis, anyone) apart from themselves.

The folklore that some people live with... :rolleyes:

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

How's that local income tax coming along by the way? No?

How about the teachers and class sizes then? No?

Life's a wee bit harder when you can't just make it up as you go along isn't it?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

How's that local income tax coming along by the way? No?

The Scottish Government has been seeking support for the local income tax from the Liberal Democrats, who want councils to be able to set rates.

The proposals - opposed by Labour and the Tories - would see the tax rate applied to income falling under the basic and higher rates of UK income tax.

maybe if the labour MSP's didnt try and block every single thing the SNP try to do for this country things might actually happen !!! sheer pettiness, still, maybe when/if the roles are reversed and the SNP in turn try to block every proposal from a labour government that would be beneficial for scottish people, you can save yer sniping for the minority labour government instead yes ?

How about the teachers and class sizes then? No?

Life's a wee bit harder when you can't just make it up as you go along isn't it?


try google for your answer instead of bashing the nats http://news.stv.tv/scotland/166107-smaller-class-sizes-for-primary-schools/

Cutting class sizes in primary schools and providing free school meals in deprived areas are among the targets agreed on by councils and Government ministers today.

The new deal between the Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (COSLA) will see at least 20% of primary 1-3 pupils in classes of 18 or less by the start of the new school year in August.

[One Day Soon]

try google for your answer instead of bashing the nats http://news.stv.tv/scotland/166107-smaller-class-sizes-for-primary-schools/ (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/166107-smaller-class-sizes-for-primary-schools/)

Cutting class sizes in primary schools and providing free school meals in deprived areas are among the targets agreed on by councils and Government ministers today.

The new deal between the Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (COSLA) will see at least 20% of primary 1-3 pupils in classes of 18 or less by the start of the new school year in August.

1. I see that you accept the historical truth of the SNP MPs opening the door for Thatcher.

2. In May of next year the Scottish Parliament elections will take place. Not only will the SNP not have delivered on their promise of a local income tax to replace the Council Tax, they won't even have put a proposal for a local income tax before parliament during the four years they will have been in charge.

3. Teachers and class sizes - google is a wonderful thing isn't it? Unfortunately it can't deliver government policy for you otherwise maybe we wouldn't now have less teachers under the SNP rather than more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5970256.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5970256.ece)

And ooh what an amazing achievment on class sizes. What it means is that just nine months before the elections the SNP will have 80% of primary 1 to 3 schoolchildren in class sizes greater than 18 when their election promise was that all class sizes in that age group would be under 18. Four years to fail on a basic promise.

Like I said life's harder when you can't just make it up as you go along. And you know what the really pesky problem is? It is that someone like me pointing out the truth on a message board is the least of it. People notice this stuff. You should hear what ordinary punters have to say on our school board about the broken promise on class sizes and the lack of money to pay for the extension and rebuilding. No amount of spin is going to make them think black is white.

Mind you one year of Tory government by that stage will probably provide enough defensive cover for everyone else. They clearly have absolutely no clue what they are going to do about most things and the one area where they are relatively clear - cutting public spending in year one - is virtually guaranteed to put us back into recession. Christ, we're going to have a Chancellor who believes it would have been a good idea to let one of the big banks go to the wall during the banking crisis. Economic illiteracy doesn't even begin to cover it.

[weecounty hibby]

The SNP government is a minority government that has had little or no support from the other major parties during their tenure. Labour seem only to be concerned with petty point scoring and things like the farce that was the Glasgow airport rail link. Telling people that the SNP were anti galsgow is a cheap way to try to win votes. When asked how they would actually finance things like this they had no answer. Labour in Scotland is a ya boo sucks brigade, they want to throw mud about at the government but actually have no answers themselves.
It would have been better for the people of Scotland if they had accepted the fact that they had been beaten in the polls and worked with the government rather than taking the huff and acting like spoilt schoolkids.
They need to face up to the fact that people in Scotland will no longer vote for them just because they always have, they need to have better policies, better people and a better track record of governing. At the moment they have none of these.

[One Day Soon]

The SNP government is a minority government that has had little or no support from the other major parties during their tenure. Labour seem only to be concerned with petty point scoring and things like the farce that was the Glasgow airport rail link. Telling people that the SNP were anti galsgow is a cheap way to try to win votes. When asked how they would actually finance things like this they had no answer. Labour in Scotland is a ya boo sucks brigade, they want to throw mud about at the government but actually have no answers themselves.
It would have been better for the people of Scotland if they had accepted the fact that they had been beaten in the polls and worked with the government rather than taking the huff and acting like spoilt schoolkids.
They need to face up to the fact that people in Scotland will no longer vote for them just because they always have, they need to have better policies, better people and a better track record of governing. At the moment they have none of these.

That's hilarious. Apart from the fact that the SNP and their wee chums the Tories have stuck together in the Parliament you seem to be missing several rather obvious points:

1. You don't need opposition votes to deliver on a promise on class sizes - it doesn't require legislation.

2. The role of the opposition is to oppose, not to do whatever a minority government needs them to do to help shore up a weak and struggling administration.

3. "Telling people that the SNP were anti galsgow is a cheap way to try to win votes." Hmm, don't you think that telling people that the other parties are anti Scottish is a cheap way to try to win votes?

But as I have said elsewhere your problem is that punters will look at the first SNP government and make up their own minds regardless of whether it was a minority administration. Its easy to be outsiders and above the dirty business of government when you have never been in power but once you're in, you're in. Compromised by the business of governing and as they said in 'The Untouchables' - "Touchable".

[weecounty hibby]

That's hilarious. Apart from the fact that the SNP and their wee chums the Tories have stuck together in the Parliament you seem to be missing several rather obvious points:

1. You don't need opposition votes to deliver on a promise on class sizes - it doesn't require legislation.

2. The role of the opposition is to oppose, not to do whatever a minority government needs them to do to help shore up a weak and struggling administration.

3. "Telling people that the SNP were anti galsgow is a cheap way to try to win votes." Hmm, don't you think that telling people that the other parties are anti Scottish is a cheap way to try to win votes?

But as I have said elsewhere your problem is that punters will look at the first SNP government and make up their own minds regardless of whether it was a minority administration. Its easy to be outsiders and above the dirty business of government when you have never been in power but once you're in, you're in. Compromised by the business of governing and as they said in 'The Untouchables' - "Touchable".

Couple of things, I have never heard the SNP saying anyone was anti Scottish. Anti Scottish policies this is undoubtedly true. Unionist yes, anti Scottish no. I'm sure that you will now come up with some obscure SNP supporter saying something like this.

Opposition is fine, but it would be good to hear why they oppose things and their policies to do things better. It's not good enough to just say thats rubbish and we wont support it, they need to come up with their own way of doing things. They continue to shout and moan but come up with nothing substantial as an alternative. They are becoming a boring party full of boring people

You are right punters will make up their own minds. I honestly believe that Scotland is a better place to live now than it was before devolution and even before this government came into power. I hope people realise that the mess the country is in is down almost entirely to the British Labour governments mismanagement over the last 13 years or so, probably even longer back to the Tories in fact. Labour were trying so hard to be like the Tories they let the financial sector dictate how it should be run and monitored, a policy that Gordon Brown up to a year or so ago was still crowing about and was boasting about how well the big financial institutions were benefitting. You know what, it makes him look a complete incompetant.

[Hainan Hibs]

Graduate endowment abolished, council tax freeze, abolished tolls, more police, the SNP has done quite a lot for a minority government.

And as for the SNP delivering the Thatcher government, if you're going to believe that you may as well bend over and take a pumping off Jim Murphy. Labour only have themselves to blame for Thatcher by making such a cock up of governing the country at that time.

Let's not forget about the government of that time that was that scared of the SNP gaining more strength it hid a report by Scottish Economist Gavin McCrone that showed Scotland would be "chronically in surplus" if it was independent, gaining one of the strongest currencies in Europe.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

How's that local income tax coming along by the way? No?

How about the teachers and class sizes then? No?

Life's a wee bit harder when you can't just make it up as you go along isn't it?

Way to sneer at a tax that is much fairer than Council Tax.

Local Income Tax failed because Scottish Labour, and others in the house, decided to oppose it with no other solutions offered. As a minority government, they were always going to struggle to implement it.

Scottish Labour are a joke. No ideas, no real opposition, they just act like childish school kids. Minimum pricing on alcohol is the perfect example. They oppose it in face of all many experts backing it, with no other idea about how to fix it.

Yes the SNP have failed on cutting class sizes, and I'm angry about that. Every government breaks manifesto promises though, and it's about balancing the good they've done with the broken promises.

More police on the street, free prescriptions, free higher education, council tax freeze, schools refurbished/new schools built, fighting to oppose trident, investment in renewables. That's good enough for me.

[hibsdaft]

http://www.fridgemagnet.org.uk/toys/dave-met.php

lol

[steakbake]

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.



Eh? What are you on, man?

The SNP set up the no confidence vote. Labour lost a no confidence vote then lost an election. The SNP didn't vote down or vote in anyone.

Labour lost to the Tories because they, like now, mismanaged the economy and almost ruined the country.

Have you decided who you'll blame if you lose this election? ITV for giving Clegg airtime? David Cameron? The electorate? The unions for the bad press those strikes are causing? Or an Icelandic volcano?

[One Day Soon]

Graduate endowment abolished, council tax freeze, abolished tolls, more police, the SNP has done quite a lot for a minority government.

And as for the SNP delivering the Thatcher government, if you're going to believe that you may as well bend over and take a pumping off Jim Murphy. Labour only have themselves to blame for Thatcher by making such a cock up of governing the country at that time.

Let's not forget about the government of that time that was that scared of the SNP gaining more strength it hid a report by Scottish Economist Gavin McCrone that showed Scotland would be "chronically in surplus" if it was independent, gaining one of the strongest currencies in Europe.

Attaboy, a hotch potch of 'look what we done' amounting to next to nothing that will count for anything with voters at the next election. You're a mainstream party now behaving just like the others do. That means your 'pumping' from the electorate will be along shortly. There is a single reason for the SNP to exist and that is independence - it will be quite some feat for the first SNP administration in history to reach the end of a four year term and, er, not even have taken a vote in the parliament on a referendum.

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

Oh and the only policy in the list above that's worth a dime is the extra police. The rest is window dressing. You would have been better listing the support for SMEs in business rate reduction.

[One Day Soon]

Way to sneer at a tax that is much fairer than Council Tax.

Local Income Tax failed because Scottish Labour, and others in the house, decided to oppose it with no other solutions offered. As a minority government, they were always going to struggle to implement it.

Scottish Labour are a joke. No ideas, no real opposition, they just act like childish school kids. Minimum pricing on alcohol is the perfect example. They oppose it in face of all many experts backing it, with no other idea about how to fix it.

Yes the SNP have failed on cutting class sizes, and I'm angry about that. Every government breaks manifesto promises though, and it's about balancing the good they've done with the broken promises.

More police on the street, free prescriptions, free higher education, council tax freeze, schools refurbished/new schools built, fighting to oppose trident, investment in renewables. That's good enough for me.

Not sneering at the local income tax, sneering at the failure to even bring a proposal on it to parliament. Having said that I don't think it is a particularly fair tax either. Council Tax is busted but local income tax isn't the answer.

If every government breaks manifesto promises and its about balancing the good they've done with broken promises, what would you say are the best bits of Labour in power?

More police is good, but free prescriptions is indiscriminate susbidy to those who don't need it at the expense of those who do, the same goes for 'free higher education'. Council tax freeze is actually anti-democratic but I can see the populism. However that will be screwed in April of next year right before the elections because the Council budget cuts will make it unsustainable. Schools refurbished/new schools built is just hilarious - the ending of PPP has brought that programme to a near halt and the Scottish Futures Trust is a quango with a name but still in search of a function. You can counter argue on that one all you like but parent councils and school boards all over the country can see week in and week out the work that isn't being done on buildings that need it. Fighting to oppose Trident isn't actually an act of government (exactly how ARE they fighting to oppose Trident?) but let's not be detained by that and investment in renewables you will find is overwhelmingly carried out by the UK government and the private sector.

Still, the possibility of renewing the nuclear power capacity has been totally ******d so that's good. One of the single most reliable medium term sources of stable baseload supply ruled out on a posturing political whim. And we still get a brand new nuclear power station right on the border at Sellafield which presumably means we get whatever risks there are supposed to be associated with nuclear but none of the jobs. Fantastic.

You're easily pleased.

[Mibbes Aye]

Graduate endowment abolished, council tax freeze, abolished tolls, more police, the SNP has done quite a lot for a minority government.

And as for the SNP delivering the Thatcher government, if you're going to believe that you may as well bend over and take a pumping off Jim Murphy. Labour only have themselves to blame for Thatcher by making such a cock up of governing the country at that time.

Let's not forget about the government of that time that was that scared of the SNP gaining more strength it hid a report by Scottish Economist Gavin McCrone that showed Scotland would be "chronically in surplus" if it was independent, gaining one of the strongest currencies in Europe.


Way to sneer at a tax that is much fairer than Council Tax.

Local Income Tax failed because Scottish Labour, and others in the house, decided to oppose it with no other solutions offered. As a minority government, they were always going to struggle to implement it.

Scottish Labour are a joke. No ideas, no real opposition, they just act like childish school kids. Minimum pricing on alcohol is the perfect example. They oppose it in face of all many experts backing it, with no other idea about how to fix it.

Yes the SNP have failed on cutting class sizes, and I'm angry about that. Every government breaks manifesto promises though, and it's about balancing the good they've done with the broken promises.

More police on the street, free prescriptions, free higher education, council tax freeze, schools refurbished/new schools built, fighting to oppose trident, investment in renewables. That's good enough for me.

Good old council tax freeze, eh?

Local authorities having to cut nursery places and day care for older people. Having to increase charges for people with learning disabilities for the services they receive that try and give them a half-decent quality of life. All in order to balance their budgets.

In the face of substantial reductions in the public sector spend, the council tax freeze adds insult to injury.

If the SNP try and claim that as some sort of accomplishment it's a very cheap shot at the expense of the most vulnerable in our society who are getting less and less, as a consequence.

[Hainan Hibs]

Attaboy, a hotch potch of 'look what we done' amounting to next to nothing that will count for anything with voters at the next election. You're a mainstream party now behaving just like the others do. That means your 'pumping' from the electorate will be along shortly. There is a single reason for the SNP to exist and that is independence - it will be quite some feat for the first SNP administration in history to reach the end of a four year term and, er, not even have taken a vote in the parliament on a referendum.

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

Oh and the only policy in the list above that's worth a dime is the extra police. The rest is window dressing. You would have been better listing the support for SMEs in business rate reduction.

The graduate endowment scrapping is worth a dime for me. 2 grand in fact.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

How's that local income tax coming along by the way? No?

How about the teachers and class sizes then? No?

Life's a wee bit harder when you can't just make it up as you go along isn't it?

At least the SNP are trying something new. All Labour wanted to do in Holyrood was behave like they were Strathclyde Council.

A. Numpty: Aw Jack, they voter choobs is askin us tae reform health care.

Wee Jack: Jist tell thum no tae be sae buckin silly, an jist dae whit thir buckin telt. Is ma tea ready yet?

etc, etc, etc

[One Day Soon]

At least the SNP are trying something new. All Labour wanted to do in Holyrood was behave like they were Strathclyde Council.

A. Numpty: Aw Jack, they voter choobs is askin us tae reform health care.

Wee Jack: Jist tell thum no tae be sae buckin silly, an jist dae whit thir buckin telt. Is ma tea ready yet?

etc, etc, etc


Is that it Filled? Is that really your best shot? Because if it is then with respect its really 5h1t.

Aside from creating the Scottish Parliament itself:

* Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency
* Smoking Ban
* Land Reform Act
* Adults with Incapacity Act
* modern apprenticeships scheme
* Abolition of Feudal Tenure Act
* free personal care for the elderly
* 100 new or rebuilt schools
* record police numbers
* free central heating for the elderly
* free pensioner travel across Scotland
* the McCrone pay settlement for teachers
* trying to bring the European championships to Scotland
* bringing the Commonwealth games to Glasgow
* Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales

.....that's without even having to try too hard.

Plenty to attack Labour's record over in government at Holyrood and Westminster, but don't try this crap that Labour lacked ambition. In fact the scope of Labour's ambition in terms of both policy and legislation bears pretty favourable comparison with the SNP record - particularly in terms of the durable nature of the change effected.

[steakbake]

Is that it Filled? Is that really your best shot? Because if it is then with respect its really 5h1t.

Aside from creating the Scottish Parliament itself:

* Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency
* Smoking Ban
* Land Reform Act
* Adults with Incapacity Act
* modern apprenticeships scheme
* Abolition of Feudal Tenure Act
* free personal care for the elderly
* 100 new or rebuilt schools
* record police numbers
* free central heating for the elderly
* free pensioner travel across Scotland
* the McCrone pay settlement for teachers
* trying to bring the European championships to Scotland
* bringing the Commonwealth games to Glasgow
* Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales

.....that's without even having to try too hard.

Plenty to attack Labour's record over in government at Holyrood and Westminster, but don't try this crap that Labour lacked ambition. In fact the scope of Labour's ambition in terms of both policy and legislation bears pretty favourable comparison with the SNP record - particularly in terms of the durable nature of the change effected.

Guess who works for The Party? Or are you Iain Gray? Did you have to tear out one or two pages so you could rip the SNP manifesto apart?

[One Day Soon]

The graduate endowment scrapping is worth a dime for me. 2 grand in fact.


Good for you buddy. That's 2 grand less available to educate someone else now.

Whereas if you were paying that back as a loan then the £2,000 loan you had could have been used to help educate someone else and the cost to you of repaying it after you get a job would be so minimal you'd barely notice. And if the the loans and grants were distributed on an income related basis then people who REALLY need grants instead of loans would get them while still allowing more people to be well educated. Maybe you would be one of the people who would qualify for a grant.

But what the hell, everyone gets their beer money now so that's a great investment.

[Mibbes Aye]

Guess who works for The Party? Or are you Iain Gray? Did you have to tear out one or two pages so you could rip the SNP manifesto apart?
You don't need to work for any party to be able to contrast and compare the legislation enacted by the different regimes.

Always thought the Land Reform Act was massively unheralded and the legislation around mental health and capacity offered a genuine step forward in the way we treat some of the most vulnerable and marginalised in our society.

There's a sincere thread of social justice running through those Acts which isn't there to any great degree with the SNP or the Tories.

[One Day Soon]

Guess who works for The Party? Or are you Iain Gray? Did you have to tear out one or two pages so you could rip the SNP manifesto apart?

I don't work for the Labour Party and I acknowledged that there is plenty to criticise on its record in both governments. What's your problem - can't handle the truth?:notworthy:

[steakbake]

I don't work for the Labour Party and I acknowledged that there is plenty to criticise on its record in both governments. What's your problem - can't handle the truth?:notworthy:

So you're just an average Joe who happens to be able to provide a list of the Labour Party's achievements, such as they are... And your not a member of the party nor have an active interest in the party at all?

I find that very hard to believe.

I have no problem at all because as I have stated elsewhere, I'm not a member of any particular party, nor a follower of any particular party. I'm probably going to vote LibDems in my own contribution to get rid of Gordon Brown and the Labour Party.

What I don't like, though, is the way politicians and people with interests in politics - like you - rewriting history. My issue with you and people like you is that somehow Thatcher was the SNP's "fault". It is as much the Liberal's fault as the SNP, given the Liberals abandoned the government the year before.

What you seem totally incapable of understanding, which is possibly understandable if you are as dyed in the wool Labour and as blind as you seem, is that Labour lost the election against Thatcher because like now, their time was up, they'd run out of idea and they do not have a divine right to govern.

[Mibbes Aye]

So you're just an average Joe who happens to be able to provide a list of the Labour Party's achievements, such as they are... And your not a member of the party nor have an active interest in the party at all?

I find that very hard to believe.

I have no problem at all because as I have stated elsewhere, I'm not a member of any particular party, nor a follower of any particular party. I'm probably going to vote LibDems in my own contribution to get rid of Gordon Brown and the Labour Party.

What I don't like, though, is the way politicians and people with interests in politics - like you - rewriting history. My issue with you and people like you is that somehow Thatcher was the SNP's "fault". It is as much the Liberal's fault as the SNP, given the Liberals abandoned the government the year before.

What you seem totally incapable of understanding, which is possibly understandable if you are as dyed in the wool Labour and as blind as you seem, is that Labour lost the election against Thatcher because like now, their time was up, they'd run out of idea and they do not have a divine right to govern.

Tackling the effects of the recession obviously informs everything, for all the parties.

I would nevertheless disagree that the present Government has run out of policy ideas. Whether you agree with them or not is another thing.

Electoral and constitutional reform

A national care service to address one of the biggest issues facing our society - how we care for a massively-increasing older population

Creating a people's bank to end the financial exclusion that the most disadvantaged in our society face.

Expanding council housebuilding, again helping those who probably need it the most

Targeting 18-24 year olds for employment, education or training through the Young Person's Guarantee in order to avoid what we went through with Thatcher where a whole generation were written off in many parts of the country, with their whole adult lives in front of them.

That's not running out of ideas. That's offering a response to the issues that are impacting most on our society.

And it's offering a response that includes those who need our support most rather than consigning them to their fate, disadvantaged and disempowered in difficult times.

[Beefster]

Electoral and constitutional reform

A referendum on the voting system - first promised in the 1997 Labour manifesto.

A national care service to address one of the biggest issues facing our society - how we care for a massively-increasing older population

All three parties have proposals. Labour have been promising a solution to care of the elderly since 1997 and not delivered. They only recently dropped their plan for a £20,000 'Death Tax' because it was a complete vote loser.

Creating a people's bank to end the financial exclusion that the most disadvantaged in our society face.

Expanding council housebuilding, again helping those who probably need it the most

This was promised in the 2005 manifesto (if not earlier) and, again, Labour's own targets were missed by miles.

Targeting 18-24 year olds for employment, education or training through the Young Person's Guarantee in order to avoid what we went through with Thatcher where a whole generation were written off in many parts of the country, with their whole adult lives in front of them.

A select committee reported that Labour had fallen well short of its own targets on young people not in education, employment and training. It's not surprising that they're still promising to do something about it.

That's not running out of ideas. That's offering a response to the issues that are impacting most on our society.

And it's offering a response that includes those who need our support most rather than consigning them to their fate, disadvantaged and disempowered in difficult times.

Seems more like "Give us more time to sort out the stuff we promised you years ago" rather than "a response to the issues".

[GlesgaeHibby]

Good for you buddy. That's 2 grand less available to educate someone else now.

Whereas if you were paying that back as a loan then the £2,000 loan you had could have been used to help educate someone else and the cost to you of repaying it after you get a job would be so minimal you'd barely notice. And if the the loans and grants were distributed on an income related basis then people who REALLY need grants instead of loans would get them while still allowing more people to be well educated. Maybe you would be one of the people who would qualify for a grant.

But what the hell, everyone gets their beer money now so that's a great investment.

:faf: Students already run up a massive amount of debt purely from having to take out a student loan. Scrapping the graduate endownment was a great move. A lot of people who graduated before it was scrapped had refused to pay it anyway if you look at the figures, but Labour of course implemented it so they could tell us higher education was free in Scotland.

A better approach would have been reducing uni fees to say £500 per year to ensure they collected that money, but then they wouldn't be able to trot out their "free education" line.

£2000 is a lot less than is currently dished out to the workshy and girls that open their legs to pop out kids and get a free house. Graduates will repay their debt to society by earning more over their working lives (on average) and hence being taxed more than non graduates.

[Mibbes Aye]

Seems more like "Give us more time to sort out the stuff we promised you years ago" rather than "a response to the issues".

I think you're right in that progress hasn't been at the pace people would want or expect a lot of the time. The policy areas I highlighted illustrate that the response or the perceived solution is one that is far more inclusive, far more rooted in trying to effect social justice, than those of the other main parties, either side of the border.

I think expectations are far too high though (much like supporting Hibs :greengrin). To take care for the elderly, it's impossible to effect a solution even on a timescale of three Parliaments (unless someone's advocating a "Logan's Run"-style remedy).

The demographic rise and the accompanying increase in levels of need and the raft of structural and societal changes needed to deal with that, while dealing with already increasing demands in the face of static or diminishing resources, all accompanied by a massive increase in people's expectations?........

Managing it is going to be an ongoing affair, over decades. There's no magic bullet. But there are policy decisions to be made that can and will shape the outcome.

There's a point about targets and timescales. IIRC the government has consistently fallen short on their targets for reduction in child poverty. They've successfully moved hundreds of thousands out of child poverty but not to the levels they had targeted.

But surely it's far better that a major party were prepared to say child poverty is a social wrong, a social evil, and set public targets for reducing it, and reduce it considerably, even if ultimately they fall short of the target in the attempt?

[Leicester Fan]

Mibbes[/LEFT] Aye;2432608]

But surely it's far better that a major party were prepared to say child poverty is a social wrong, a social evil, and set public targets for reducing it, and reduce it considerably, even if ultimately they fall short of the target in the attempt?

Depends how you define poverty. Nobody in this country needs to starve or be homeless. Compared to half the countries in the world our levels of poverty are unrecognisable as such.

If you are talking about the gap between rich and poor, that gap has grown bigger under this govt, which proves it's no good having your heart in the right place if your brains are in your **** ****.