PDA

View Full Version : Is 4-5-1 the way to beat a big, physical side?



matty_f
19-03-2010, 10:21 AM
There's been a lot of chat about formations and team selection this week as we get ready for the third, and potentially last, derby of the season.

The last two games have seen Hibs dragged down to the Yams' level, as the games have been scrappy affairs with little good football on show, largely thanks to the Yams' spoiling tactics.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - spoiling the game and setting out with the sole purpose of preventing the opposition playing is a legitimate tactic and part and parcel of the game. That it makes your eyes bleed is neither here nor there.

IMHO, the key to overcoming that and imposing our own game on the match is to line up with a 4-5-1. If we match the Yams numerically in the middle, the approach of their big, physical players is less effective - particularly so as we have better footballers in most positions (IMHO).

I'd start with last week's defence, and bring in Bamba to a holding midfield role at the expense of the Nish/Benji position. Having 5 in midfield would allow us the luxury of Deek at left mid having the licence to drift inside to support Stokes.

IMHO, midfield is the key tomorrow, win that battle and we'll win the game.

Danderhall Hibs
19-03-2010, 10:26 AM
451 is definitely the way to go in this game. We need to get bodies in the middle. As you say they'll be set up to stop us playing (like they usually are) so we need to combat that while still having our danger men on the park - Riordan on the left of a 5 and maybe Wotherspoon on the right.

Stewart has been credited with "running the derby" etc but really all he's done is be destructive and complain the to ref - if Bamba was there to put him in his place (or even Stevenson - he's done it a few times before) then our creative guys could do the damage.

We can't keep falling to their level.

Stack
Thicot Hogg Hanlon Murray
Wotherspoon McBride Bamba Miller Riordan
Stokes

matty_f
19-03-2010, 10:29 AM
451 is definitely the way to go in this game. We need to get bodies in the middle. As you say they'll be set up to stop us playing (like they usually are) so we need to combat that while still having our danger men on the park - Riordan on the left of a 5 and maybe Wotherspoon on the right.

Stewart has been credited with "running the derby" etc but really all he's done is be destructive and complain the to ref - if Bamba was there to put him in his place (or even Stevenson - he's done it a few times before) then our creative guys could do the damage.

We can't keep falling to their level.

:agree: Couldn't agree more with that bit, if Liam Miller had taken all our free kicks and corners like Stewart did the Yams, then he'd have appeared to have been much more influential in the derbies as well.

I'd be inclined to start Lewis Stevenson in this game, he does the Mikey Stewart role well, and IIRC he pretty much owned Stewart in the 0-1 at the PBS last season when we went there with our reserves.

One thing we need to watch is how much the referee allows - Fat Jim Knew has already been in the papers saying that he hopes the referee allows for the fact it's a derby so his players can avoid bookings longer.

K.Marx
19-03-2010, 10:34 AM
Stack
Thicot Hogg Hamlon Murray
Wotherspoon McBride Bamba Miller Riordan
Stokes

love the look of that central midfield, really think we would dominate that area if we lined up like that :agree: plenty protection for the back 4 aswell with mcbride and/or bamba able to sit deep

Danderhall Hibs
19-03-2010, 10:35 AM
I should've also said that I'd pick Thicot at RB to help out with clearing the long throws that they'll be launching into our box. If Vlad allows Goncalves to play this weelk he'll be chucking them the length of the park to try and trouble us. Law of averages says one will trouble us - most of them went out for a by-kick the last time we played at Tiny.

With Bamba and Thicot on the park we have a bit of physicality to match up to them. Hopefully the ref can see right through Jefferies "mind games" and gets Stewart/Black whoever kicks out 1st in the book early doors. They can't be allowed away with it like Hartley used to be allowed.

matty_f
19-03-2010, 10:36 AM
love the look of that central midfield, really think we would dominate that area if we lined up like that :agree: plenty protection for the back 4 aswell with mcbride and/or bamba able to sit deep
:agree:

Gives Miller plenty scope to get forward as well.

Hibbyradge
19-03-2010, 10:39 AM
Hearts teams are usually big and physical, but a good few of their cloggers will be out injured/suspended/with Vlad flu (del as approp) so they may not have their usual muscle to drag us down to their level.

I do agree with 5 across the middle, though, at least initially.

Hearts don't have a lot of options up front, but if they do score first they can shut up shop pretty efficiently, so we'll need plenty people in the team who can win the ball back.

bighairyfaeleith
19-03-2010, 10:40 AM
I wouldn't be dissapointed to see this line up tomorrow

matty_f
19-03-2010, 10:41 AM
Hearts teams are usually big and physical, but a good few of their cloggers will be out injured/suspended/with Vlad flu (del as approp) so they may not have their usual muscle to drag us down to their level.

I do agree with 5 across the middle, though, at least initially.

Hearts don't have a lot of options up front, but if they do score first they can shut up shop pretty efficiently, so we'll need plenty people in the team who can win the ball back.

If the Yams get the first goal, I think we'll need to prepare ourselves for a frustrating time as they will no doubt resort to their usual diving and cheating ways for the rest of the match.:agree:

Hibbyradge
19-03-2010, 10:43 AM
If the Yams get the first goal, I think we'll need to prepare ourselves for a frustrating time as they will no doubt resort to their usual diving and cheating ways for the rest of the match.:agree:

I don't think we'll have to wait till they score for that to happen.

houston1875
19-03-2010, 10:50 AM
There's been a lot of chat about formations and team selection this week as we get ready for the third, and potentially last, derby of the season.

The last two games have seen Hibs dragged down to the Yams' level, as the games have been scrappy affairs with little good football on show, largely thanks to the Yams' spoiling tactics.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - spoiling the game and setting out with the sole purpose of preventing the opposition playing is a legitimate tactic and part and parcel of the game. That it makes your eyes bleed is neither here nor there.

IMHO, the key to overcoming that and imposing our own game on the match is to line up with a 4-5-1. If we match the Yams numerically in the middle, the approach of their big, physical players is less effective - particularly so as we have better footballers in most positions (IMHO).



I'd start with last week's defence, and bring in Bamba to a holding midfield role at the expense of the Nish/Benji position. Having 5 in midfield would allow us the luxury of Deek at left mid having the licence to drift inside to support Stokes.

IMHO, midfield is the key tomorrow, win that battle and we'll win the game.

hmmn im all for 451 away from home,but would rather have a target man as lone striker,ie a physical prescence,ive said this all along,somebody to hold ball up,lay it off,bring others into the play,plus ideally he would have to be half decent at heading the ball as the spl is quite a direct type of footy at times? and instead of trying to play nice footy when underpressure,it would also give us a outball when in danger? plus said target man would do deeks and stokes a tonne of good? a targetman not a big galoot like curier lol
:dunno:
a small forward up against 2 big central defenders,they must relish it,the defenders,but a big fearsome target man or even a paring of deek and anthony?

Hibee87
19-03-2010, 10:52 AM
:agree: Couldn't agree more with that bit, if Liam Miller had taken all our free kicks and corners like Stewart did the Yams, then he'd have appeared to have been much more influential in the derbies as well.

I'd be inclined to start Lewis Stevenson in this game, he does the Mikey Stewart role well, and IIRC he pretty much owned Stewart in the 0-1 at the PBS last season when we went there with our reserves.

One thing we need to watch is how much the referee allows - Fat Jim Knew has already been in the papers saying that he hopes the referee allows for the fact it's a derby so his players can avoid bookings longer.

stewart is out injured is he not so wont need to worry about him, as much as i hate the wee ginger twat he has in both games played good and dominated the midfield not giving miller a chance to get forward and make any telling passes. i agree about the 4 5 1 formation

stack

spoony hogg hanlon murray
--------Bamba-----------
zemmama miller mcbride riordan

--------stokes---------

if zemmama is fit any way, i would like that formation however if zouma is still carrying a injury and benched i would love to see deek put on the right as he can cross with right foot cut inside and shoot just as well with his left and put galbraith on the left wing.

bawheid
19-03-2010, 11:00 AM
One thing that Fat Jim Knew is right about is that we need a strong ref.

By that I mean one that is not afraid to stand up to Hearts oft-used strong-arm tactics. Most derbies these days are ruined by their anti-footballers Zaliukas, Jonsson and co trying to swap shirts during every corner and free kick.

If the ref can see past their diving, kicking and cheating it'll not matter what formation we put out - we'll pump them.

K.Marx
19-03-2010, 11:06 AM
If the ref can see past their diving, kicking and cheating it'll not matter what formation we put out - we'll pump them.

last week I wouldnt say ross county did any of the above and they still comprehensively outplayed us. we need to get the shape right, if we lose the midfield battle then the best we are looking at is a draw.

bawheid
19-03-2010, 11:10 AM
last week I wouldnt say ross county did any of the above and they still comprehensively outplayed us. we need to get the shape right, if we lose the midfield battle then the best we are looking at is a draw.

That's because Ross County are a football side, rather than a wrestling team.

Since Hearts don't score goals, all they have is the underhand stuff to try and level things out.

Aldo
19-03-2010, 11:19 AM
There's been a lot of chat about formations and team selection this week as we get ready for the third, and potentially last, derby of the season.

The last two games have seen Hibs dragged down to the Yams' level, as the games have been scrappy affairs with little good football on show, largely thanks to the Yams' spoiling tactics.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - spoiling the game and setting out with the sole purpose of preventing the opposition playing is a legitimate tactic and part and parcel of the game. That it makes your eyes bleed is neither here nor there.

IMHO, the key to overcoming that and imposing our own game on the match is to line up with a 4-5-1. If we match the Yams numerically in the middle, the approach of their big, physical players is less effective - particularly so as we have better footballers in most positions (IMHO).

I'd start with last week's defence, and bring in Bamba to a holding midfield role at the expense of the Nish/Benji position. Having 5 in midfield would allow us the luxury of Deek at left mid having the licence to drift inside to support Stokes.

IMHO, midfield is the key tomorrow, win that battle and we'll win the game.:agree:

Matty

spot on mate but I have to say I have been going on about a balanced team all week.

They are defo missing Stewart (who usually runs the derby MF) so the middle of the park is vital. For me them having Zaliukas and Bouzid missing will be just as important for us as they are 2 very physical players which I think they will miss.

We cannot start punting the ball up and down the field cos no one will win in.

Get it on the deck (for me the surface at the PBS is one of the best in the SPL) and get Miller playing some killer passes.

I also hope Zemmama is fit and I would play a team along the lines of this

Stack
Wotherspoon Hogg Bamba Murray
Zemmama McBride Miller Rankin Deek
Stokes

or this little formation

Stack
Hogg Hanlon Bamba
Wotherspoon Zemmama (Free role) Miller Murray
Stokes Deek

We need to keep some shape and get them on the back foot.

2 -1 win for the cabbage and ribs.

GG

Sergey
19-03-2010, 11:19 AM
One thing that Fat Jim Knew is right about is that we need a strong ref.

By that I mean one that is not afraid to stand up to Hearts oft-used strong-arm tactics. Most derbies these days are ruined by their anti-footballers Zaliukas, Jonsson and co trying to swap shirts during every corner and free kick.

If the ref can see past their diving, kicking and cheating it'll not matter what formation we put out - we'll pump them.

I was just about to post the exact same.

I swear that these pheckers must practice fouling and cheating up at Herriot Watt. In fact, it's maybe a graduate programme in "Physicality and Brutality in Sport" that they're working on.

Mikey
19-03-2010, 11:38 AM
If Stevenson plays he should wear a pair of training shorts. They have bigger pockets and he could get Stewart and the Spanish Waiter in there.

Has Lewis stopped laughing at him yet?

matty_f
19-03-2010, 11:52 AM
I hope Zemmama is available for the game. For all the Yams will try the physical stuff, Zouma knows how to be 'clever' when someone makes contact with him, to ensure the referee sees it.

I hope Zemmama's given lots of protection from the referee, and that Collum is able to see through the Yams' inevitable attempts to deceive him with their off-the-ball wrestling and diving.

PC Stamp
19-03-2010, 11:58 AM
Willie Collum is probably one of the most by the book refs in Scotland. Big, physical sides like Hearts are not his cup of tea.

Aldo
19-03-2010, 11:58 AM
I really dont know who they will play tomorrow but I defo think Concalves will be fit regardless.

Like I say I hope Zuma is fit and given a free running role at the Yams. We need more service to Stokes and hopefully Deek but will Hughes pick a few surprises????

matty_f
19-03-2010, 11:59 AM
Willie Collum is probably one of the most by the book refs in Scotland. Big, physical sides like Hearts are not his cup of tea.

You've got a point - I was delighted to see him uphold his decision to send that thug Kingston off for his dangerous assault on that Aberdeen player.

Collum will likely know all about the Yams big, physical approach and deal with it accordingly. I certainly hope so, anyway.

Danderhall Hibs
19-03-2010, 12:01 PM
I really dont know who they will play tomorrow but I defo think Concalves will be fit regardless.


As you say he might be fit but Jefferies won't know if he's allowed to play him yet.

They'll probably have practised long-throws and that this morning but if the fax comes through saying that he's "injured" it'll throw their preparation out the window.

Vlad likes to chuck in a surprise on derby day.

bawheid
19-03-2010, 12:07 PM
You've got a point - I was delighted to see him uphold his decision to send that thug Kingston off for his dangerous assault on that Aberdeen player.

Collum will likely know all about the Yams big, physical approach and deal with it accordingly. I certainly hope so, anyway.

I seem to recall Kingston being sent off at Aberdeen previously? How many times has he been red carded in his Hearts career?

I remember when he joined them he was quite a skillful player, by their standards. Have they dragged him down to their level?

I have heard that successive managers have encouraged the fouling and cheating which is now HoMoFC's trademark.

matty_f
19-03-2010, 12:09 PM
I seem to recall Kingston being sent off at Aberdeen previously? How many times has he been red carded in his Hearts career?

I remember when he joined Hearts he was quite a skillful player, by their standards. Have they dragged him down to their level?

I have heard that successive managers have encouraged the fouling and cheating which is now Hearts trademark.

I think Kingston's had red cards other than the ones he got against the sheep. IMHO, one of the main reasons that Kingston refused to play for so long was that he couldn't see how his style could fit with the agricultural tactics of their successive managers - Fail and Plan F.

houston1875
19-03-2010, 12:15 PM
I really dont know who they will play tomorrow but I defo think Concalves will be fit regardless.

Like I say I hope Zuma is fit and given a free running role at the Yams. We need more service to Stokes and hopefully Deek but will Hughes pick a few surprises????

are we that good a team that we can afford the luxury of a free role for a player,who continually gives ball away dues to his size,against players told to ruff him up,away from home,in a derby where the tackles will be flying?


but i aint yogi so ill sit down and shut up
:greengrin

Keith_M
19-03-2010, 12:19 PM
Has anybody read the injury list for the Hawrts team?

If, and I realise this is a big if, it isn't just a bluff tactic, FJK doesn't have enough players to even put out a first team tomorrow, so does it matter how Hibs line up?

Hibbyradge
19-03-2010, 12:36 PM
I'll be slightly concerned should Darren McCormack play because the sly wrestlers from Lithuania will go out of their way to wind him up and try to provoke him into reacting.

Although I'm sure he'll be aware of this, and prepared for it, there really is only so much nipping, kicking and cheating a boy can take.

Also, I wonder how long it will be before some extremely muscular, yet theatrical clogger throws himself to the ground holding his face after an unseen incident involving Darren.

Aldo
19-03-2010, 12:41 PM
At the end of the day its going to be about who wants it more and I really do hope the team thats put out tomorrow realises this and puts in a good show of commitment for the guys and gals at the game tomorrow.

Never say never in a derby but we should (on paper anyway) be the front runners and if we show the right commitment and attitude we should win.

Teo10
19-03-2010, 12:45 PM
If Stevenson plays he should wear a pair of training shorts. They have bigger pockets and he could get Stewart and the Spanish Waiter in there.

Has Lewis stopped laughing at him yet?

I saw him not too long after that match and did not fail to mention many times how ******* funny it was seeing stewart go mental at him and him just laughing in his face :faf:

allmodcons
19-03-2010, 12:45 PM
:agree:

Matty

spot on mate but I have to say I have been going on about a balanced team all week.

They are defo missing Stewart (who usually runs the derby MF) so the middle of the park is vital. For me them having Zaliukas and Bouzid missing will be just as important for us as they are 2 very physical players which I think they will miss.

We cannot start punting the ball up and down the field cos no one will win in.

Get it on the deck (for me the surface at the PBS is one of the best in the SPL) and get Miller playing some killer passes.

I also hope Zemmama is fit and I would play a team along the lines of this

Stack
Wotherspoon Hogg Bamba Murray
Zemmama McBride Miller Rankin Deek
Stokes

or this little formation

Stack
Hogg Hanlon Bamba
Wotherspoon Zemmama (Free role) Miller Murray
Stokes Deek

We need to keep some shape and get them on the back foot.

2 -1 win for the cabbage and ribs.

GG


I must say I dinnae think it's a very good idea to start with 10.

Easy to see why Yogi's in charge:wink:.

Aldo
19-03-2010, 12:46 PM
I must say I dinnae think it's a very good idea to start with 10.

Easy to see why Yogi's in charge:wink:.

Nice one. Forgot to add McBride.

:greengrin

hfc rd
19-03-2010, 12:51 PM
I think we played 4-5-1 the last time at tynecastle.

Danderhall Hibs
19-03-2010, 01:05 PM
I think we played 4-5-1 the last time at tynecastle.

But IIRC the 5 included Stokes on the right with Nish up front?

We're talking about playing midfielders in the midfield.

Craig_in_Prague
19-03-2010, 01:10 PM
But IIRC the 5 included Stokes on the right with Nish up front?

We're talking about playing midfielders in the midfield.

I recall Stokes more on the left (strangely) and Rankin on the right.... With Benji central in the 1st half.

We looked really out of sorts (no wonder).

I posted a week or two ago that I don't give too much of a hoot anymore whom starts, so long as they're totally committed and don't come off the pitch with regrets.

although if Yogi called me up and said gimme your line-up, I'd be tempted to go with:

..............................Stack............... ....................

DW...............Hogg..................Hanlon..... ......Murray

....................Bamba...............McBride... ...............
...........................Miller................. .....................
Zemamma........................................... ........Deeks
.............................Stokes............... ...................

Dinkydoo
19-03-2010, 01:18 PM
We ned at least 4 players in the middle of the park the morn. If we have 5 then we can maybe include a couple of our more technically talented flair players since I'd hope the likes of Bamba, Cregg, McBride, Stevenson (del as appropriate) would be able to hold up the ball and make strong challenges to enable players like Deeks and Zuma to charge upfield.

I also feel that if we win the midfield battle, the game will be ours for the taking.

I mean, lets face it, the Yams only really have a midfield, two defenders - one of which being thier goal keeper! :faf:

Speedway
19-03-2010, 01:25 PM
I'd go with:

Stack
Smith

Wotherspoon
Thicot
Hogg
McCormack
Bamba
Hanlon
Murray

Cregg
Stevenson
Miller
McBride

Stokes
Riordan
Benji
Byrne

18Craig75
19-03-2010, 01:31 PM
I'd like to see Benji & Zemamma starting. That means 4 up top basically, risky, but they are terrible. Get them on the back foot from the go.


Stack

Spoony Hogg Bamba Murray

McBride Miller

Zemmama.............................Riordan

Benji Stokes

lapsedhibee
19-03-2010, 01:38 PM
I seem to recall Kingston being sent off at Aberdeen previously?

Think that was the time he took the ref aside and gently explained to him that black players are allowed to foul and cheat as much as they want, and that any ref who thinks otherwise and blows up for free kicks is a racist.

500miles
19-03-2010, 04:50 PM
I think us going there too cautiously suits them to be honest. A lot of youngsters are being forced into the limelight, so pressurise them. I also think that a 4-4-1-1 would be the way to go, and I would place importance in pace and strength in our team, mixed with a couple of magicians. For me, I would like to see....


....................Stack
.McCormack.Hogg.Hanlon.Murray
...................Bamba
.Wotherspoon.Miller.Galbraith
...............Zemmama
..................Stokes

silverhibee
19-03-2010, 11:13 PM
451 is definitely the way to go in this game. We need to get bodies in the middle. As you say they'll be set up to stop us playing (like they usually are) so we need to combat that while still having our danger men on the park - Riordan on the left of a 5 and maybe Wotherspoon on the right.

Stewart has been credited with "running the derby" etc but really all he's done is be destructive and complain the to ref - if Bamba was there to put him in his place (or even Stevenson - he's done it a few times before) then our creative guys could do the damage.

We can't keep falling to their level.

Stack
Thicot Hogg Hanlon Murray
Wotherspoon McBride Bamba Miller Riordan
Stokes:

I hope when Yogi was reading Hibs.net tonight :wink: that he had a good look at your team you have put up on here and gives it a go tommorow. Please Yogi give it a try and wee will get the result wee want. 1-2 Hibs. C'Mon the Hibs. :thumbsup: :notworthy::notworthy:

erin go bragh
20-03-2010, 08:28 AM
442 please yogi
smith
wotherspoon hogg hanlon murray
miller mcbride bamba stevenson
stokes riordan

Expecting Rain
20-03-2010, 09:20 AM
There's been a lot of chat about formations and team selection this week as we get ready for the third, and potentially last, derby of the season.

The last two games have seen Hibs dragged down to the Yams' level, as the games have been scrappy affairs with little good football on show, largely thanks to the Yams' spoiling tactics.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - spoiling the game and setting out with the sole purpose of preventing the opposition playing is a legitimate tactic and part and parcel of the game. That it makes your eyes bleed is neither here nor there.

IMHO, the key to overcoming that and imposing our own game on the match is to line up with a 4-5-1. If we match the Yams numerically in the middle, the approach of their big, physical players is less effective - particularly so as we have better footballers in most positions (IMHO).

I'd start with last week's defence, and bring in Bamba to a holding midfield role at the expense of the Nish/Benji position. Having 5 in midfield would allow us the luxury of Deek at left mid having the licence to drift inside to support Stokes.

IMHO, midfield is the key tomorrow, win that battle and we'll win the game.

Matty, i would start with a 4-5-1 in every away match just to get a foothold , early in the season we showed a lot more patience trying to get everybody on the ball and developing a balance and pattern to our game, not panicking and having to win the tie in the first 15 minutes or the first half.
The problem we have is that the main striker tends to be Stokes who prefers a sprint with defenders rather than holding the ball up or battering defenders like Mixu used to do, the key to the system working is trying to keep the ball on the deck or midfielders running at the opposition, for me Zemmama is an important player in that respect, we also have to shore up the centre mid with deploying Bamba there ( both are gambles coming back from injury and the latters temprement at times) but Hearts have also been weakened by injuries and the afore mentioned approach could be the right one.

legends of 73
20-03-2010, 09:31 AM
was speaking to ex grade 1 ref martin clarke last night who is now a supervisor and he reckons that we have a great ref for today as colum doesn't take any crap from from hearts and he says they are just a physical team that don't try and play football:thumbsup: