TRAMS.............taking the

[Gus]

Are these guys for real, germans:wink:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8560788.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8560788.stm)

:grr:

[col02]

Am I alone in not really caring about the trams anymore? They seem to have been around that long that any removal or near removal of the disruption they bring would seem odd by their absence.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Hardly a surprise. If they're proposing 2014 now, it'll be 2015 next year, 2016 the following year... :rolleyes:

[CropleyWasGod]

Yet this conflicts entirely with the story in this morning's Scotsman that said the trams could be running early next year.... in advance of the elections.

[Pretty Boy]

I thought the Germans were meant to be efficient?

TBH i don't give 2 hoots about the tram works anymore, as another poster said they have been around so long it's like they are part of the city now.

[steakbake]

I hate the trams. If this was somewhere that folks had a bit of gall, we'd be down there pulling the buggers up with crow bars.

[lucky]

again people are confusing the issue of trams with the incompetent individuals who are planning and managing the project. The trams will be excellent for Edinburgh. ONCE they are completed. It does not help that a no mark msp tries to talk them down constantly. This building project is creating work as will the operation of the trams

[hibbytam]

I hate the trams. If this was somewhere that folks had a bit of gall, we'd be down there pulling the buggers up with crow bars.

Because THAT would speed up the building work....

[Bookkeeper]

again people are confusing the issue of trams with the incompetent individuals who are planning and managing the project. The trams will be excellent for Edinburgh. ONCE they are completed. It does not help that a no mark msp tries to talk them down constantly. This building project is creating work as will the operation of the trams

:agree: Obviously don't know the details, but going by previous large public works contracts, it always seems the contractors are more commercially savvy than their clients. I also think poor planning and sequencing of the public utility works has played a part. Once again it seems our elected representatives will cost us a fortune.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

again people are confusing the issue of trams with the incompetent individuals who are planning and managing the project. The trams will be excellent for Edinburgh. ONCE they are completed. It does not help that a no mark msp tries to talk them down constantly. This building project is creating work as will the operation of the trams

:agree:
In years to come, when the trams are running, the not unexpected problems that have troubled this major project will soon be forgotten. Despite the best efforts of those who strive to rubbish them at every opportunity.

[Jack]

again people are confusing the issue of trams with the incompetent individuals who are planning and managing the project. The trams will be excellent for Edinburgh. ONCE they are completed. It does not help that a no mark msp tries to talk them down constantly. This building project is creating work as will the operation of the trams
The council are still saying they’ll be running next year, others are saying in 4 years time. What if the council end up ripping up the contract with Bilfinger Bergen, as rumoured, then cant afford the increased cost tendered by other companies to complete the work. They dont have Rod Petrie do they? That will be no trams then on what was estimated to be a £1,700 per inch original contract.

Have you heard these workies speak? I’ve yet to hear a Scottish accent never mind an Edinburgh one. So aye its creating work but its not doing this area any good.

What's happening HERE is there are shops all along and close to the route laying off staff and shutting down. Thriving businesses dying on their feet, people loosing their jobs and their livlihoods.


:agree: Obviously don't know the details, but going by previous large public works contracts, it always seems the contractors are more commercially savvy than their clients. I also think poor planning and sequencing of the public utility works has played a part. Once again it seems our elected representatives will cost us a fortune.
From what I understand the Council are sticking by their guns and not allowing the Bilfinger Bergen to renegotiate.

The trouble is being a German company they calculated all the costings in Euros, that was when there was €1.25++ to the pound. They then converted that to pounds. We all know what's happened to the pound and Euro since then with the Euro hovering between €1 and €1.1 to the pound. Bilfinger Bergen stand to make a 20%+ loss on the original figures. The contract will have had some room for manoeuvre, but not that much. Bilfinger Bergen basically want the council to pay for their stupidity.

So much as I hate to say the Council are the, oh I canny say it, lets just say its not their fault for this!




Nobody has mentioned the state of the art trams themselves here. They might be state of the art now but even if they do start running by the end of next year wont they be 2 years out of date? 4 years out of date maybe if ever.

The whole thing is a farce. They should have built the airport to Haymarket section first, which is mainly off street and would cause virtually no disruption to daily life.

Once opened, they could have probably been running by now, the good people of Edinburgh would have the benefits of the tram there for all to see.

No, instead they dig up the busiest streets in the capital and leave them a bloody mess for the best part of 2 or 3 years with no end in site.

[J-C]

What I want to know is why we allowed this contract to go to a company from abroad, is there not a decent enough engineering company here in Britain that could've done the same job ? At least the money would've stayed here and been distibuted within our own ecconomy.

As said no one want these bloody things, road closures chop and change on a weekly basis and unlees you live between the airport and Ocean Terminal it'll be a waste of time.:confused::grr:

[Lucius Apuleius]

Let me just say that when this project I am on at the minute looked liked escalating way over the 2 billion, the clien offered to change to a reimburseable contract as opposed to fixed price. We in turn offered the same to all our subcontractors. Berger was the only company who declined the offer. They will make more money from their original scope plus claims against us for delays that they ever could under a reimburseable. They are probably the most commercially savvy company I have ever worked alongside.

[khib70]

:agree:
In years to come, when the trams are running, the not unexpected problems that have troubled this major project will soon be forgotten. Despite the best efforts of those who strive to rubbish them at every opportunity.
Yeah, right. Massive cost overrun, huge time overrun, destruction of small businesses, turning the city centre into a large trench. We'll forget all that when these spiffy new trams start gliding about. Well at least the 8% of the population within reach of the line will, with the help of the rest of us who are paying for this socialist/liberal/green folly.

We'll be paying for this white elephant municipal vanity project for the rest of our lives, but hey - the chance to get to see the Britannia a bit quicker, and five minutes shaved off travelling time to the airport, will make it all worth while.:yawn:

[--------]

again people are confusing the issue of trams with the incompetent individuals who are planning and managing the project. The trams will be excellent for Edinburgh. ONCE they are completed. It does not help that a no mark msp tries to talk them down constantly. This building project is creating work as will the operation of the trams

You can include the 'incompetent individuals' who pushed the project through.

IIRC this was Jack McConnell's parting gift to Edinburgh, which he pushed through with the help and collaboration of his Liberal sidekicks and the Tories. I think the Greens also voted in favour - after all, a tram isn't a car, so it must be a good thing, right?

The 'no-mark' MSP is right to be asking questions - of Edinburgh District Council, of TIE, and of the contractors, NONE of whom appear to me to be prepared to be open and honest with the poeple of the city whose life this project is disrupting.

The fact is that of HALF the money that's been squandered on this ridiculous piece of nonsense had been invested in the already-excellent bus system, the job would have been done already.

But buses aren't glamorous, and councillors don't get European trips and kickbacks for improving a bus service.

[J-C]

You can include the 'incompetent individuals' who pushed the project through.

IIRC this was Jack McConnell's parting gift to Edinburgh, which he pushed through with the help and collaboration of his Liberal sidekicks and the Tories. I think the Greens also voted in favour - after all, a tram isn't a car, so it must be a good thing, right?

The 'no-mark' MSP is right to be asking questions - of Edinburgh District Council, of TIE, and of the contractors, NONE of whom appear to me to be prepared to be open and honest with the poeple of the city whose life this project is disrupting.

The fact is that of HALF the money that's been squandered on this ridiculous piece of nonsense had been invested in the already-excellent bus system, the job would have been done already.

But buses aren't glamorous, and councillors don't get European trips and kickbacks for improving a bus service.


You forgot about the large wad of notes in brown envelopes in their back pockets as well Doddie.

[steakbake]

Yeah, right. Massive cost overrun, huge time overrun, destruction of small businesses, turning the city centre into a large trench. We'll forget all that when these spiffy new trams start gliding about. Well at least the 8% of the population within reach of the line will, with the help of the rest of us who are paying for this socialist/liberal/green folly.

We'll be paying for this white elephant municipal vanity project for the rest of our lives, but hey - the chance to get to see the Britannia a bit quicker, and five minutes shaved off travelling time to the airport, will make it all worth while.:yawn:

See on the top of Calton Hill, there is the beginnings - and no more than that - of an acropolis? Well it never got finished for various reasons, including the practicality, cost and use. If you don't learn from the mistakes of the past, we're condemned to repeat them.

The Trams will be the 21st Centure version of that. Liking them because they are happening or not criticising them is pointless. Have you never read "The Emperor's New Clothes"? It is a vanity project with little or no value to people here.

If we wanted an airport link, then why not use the existing railway which passes within 100metres of the airport?

[khib70]

See on the top of Calton Hill, there is the beginnings - and no more than that - of an acropolis? Well it never got finished for various reasons, including the practicality, cost and use. If you don't learn from the mistakes of the past, we're condemned to repeat them.

The Trams will be the 21st Centure version of that. Liking them because they are happening or not criticising them is pointless. Have you never read "The Emperor's New Clothes"? It is a vanity project with little or no value to people here.

If we wanted an airport link, then why not use the existing railway which passes within 100metres of the airport?
100% correct. Remember the opera house that was going to be built in Castle Terrace. 30 odd years as a gap site, then became an office block. Remember the Metro system punted around in the late 80's? Cooncillors are suckers for building some big f*** off memorial to their grubby little careers.

The business case for the trams was based on the much vaunted Waterfront development. The one which defaced the seafront between Leith and Granton with overpriced flats in soulless ziggurats. The developers have gone bust and the council is reduced to using them for overflow council housing. The whole tram farce just reflects Edinburgh's status as the most misgoverned city in Scotland, regardless of which party is in power.

[Bookkeeper]

You can include the 'incompetent individuals' who pushed the project through.

IIRC this was Jack McConnell's parting gift to Edinburgh, which he pushed through with the help and collaboration of his Liberal sidekicks and the Tories. I think the Greens also voted in favour - after all, a tram isn't a car, so it must be a good thing, right?

The 'no-mark' MSP is right to be asking questions - of Edinburgh District Council, of TIE, and of the contractors, NONE of whom appear to me to be prepared to be open and honest with the poeple of the city whose life this project is disrupting.

The fact is that of HALF the money that's been squandered on this ridiculous piece of nonsense had been invested in the already-excellent bus system, the job would have been done already.

But buses aren't glamorous, and councillors don't get European trips and kickbacks for improving a bus service.


:top marksAbsolutely spot on. White elephant of a project.

[Dashing Bob S]

:agree:
In years to come, when the trams are running, the not unexpected problems that have troubled this major project will soon be forgotten. Despite the best efforts of those who strive to rubbish them at every opportunity.

I agree completely. The experience of every city on this planet where trams have been introduced indicates that this is exactly what happens; overspend, delays, mass moans, late completion, then excitement, praise, acceptance. I know wee Scots are good at holding grudges but I can't see this city being any different from the rest.

Has the project been mismanaged? Undoubtedly. The tendering process is largely to blame, whereby contractors pitch at below what is realistic in order to secure contracts. Have the politicians and p.r. people been stupid? Particularly so. Advertising that there are on course for 2012 is at best making yourself a hostage to fortune, and possibly even an exercise in sheer lunacy. It'll cost us more money to remove that standing joke from our streets.

But anyone who thinks that we can aspire to being a true capital city while living with a second rate shabby transport infrastructure of shoogly buses is a displaying a Jambo mentality and deserves to be condemned to a season ticket in the asbestos stand at the PBS.

[Dashing Bob S]

See on the top of Calton Hill, there is the beginnings - and no more than that - of an acropolis? Well it never got finished for various reasons, including the practicality, cost and use. If you don't learn from the mistakes of the past, we're condemned to repeat them.

The Trams will be the 21st Centure version of that. Liking them because they are happening or not criticising them is pointless. Have you never read "The Emperor's New Clothes"? It is a vanity project with little or no value to people here.

If we wanted an airport link, then why not use the existing railway which passes within 100metres of the airport?


I never understood why this couldn't be done. You can see both the Fife and Glasgow trainlines from the airport on a clear day. What is the big deal about moving either of those tracks a little to pass the airport?

[Hainan Hibs]

I would've preferred a subway. ( An actual one, not a Glasgow smartie tube version)

[J-C]

I would've preferred a subway. ( An actual one, not a Glasgow smartie tube version)


I think that would've caused more chaos and quadrupled the bill.:confused:


As Blacksaltire said, we have a rail line that runs right passed the airport near the Turnhouse side, the northern line which goes to Aberdeen, build a small station like the one at the Gyle and do a shuttle bus service like Luton....problem solved.

[legends of 73]

I think that would've caused more chaos and quadrupled the bill.:confused:


As Blacksaltire said, we have a rail line that runs right passed the airport near the Turnhouse side, the northern line which goes to Aberdeen, build a small station like the one at the Gyle and do a shuttle bus service like Luton....problem solved.

and lose out on the country work you get at the airport rank:greengrin:greengrin typical central driver for not looking at the bigger picture:faf::faf:

[J-C]

and lose out on the country work you get at the airport rank:greengrin:greengrin typical central driver for not looking at the bigger picture:faf::faf:

Had a job to Banknock last night, yep you heard right, Banknock......a few miles from Denny, next to Haggs.:greengrin:thumbsup:

[Green Mikey]

I agree completely. The experience of every city on this planet where trams have been introduced indicates that this is exactly what happens; overspend, delays, mass moans, late completion, then excitement, praise, acceptance. I know wee Scots are good at holding grudges but I can't see this city being any different from the rest.

Has the project been mismanaged? Undoubtedly. The tendering process is largely to blame, whereby contractors pitch at below what is realistic in order to secure contracts. Have the politicians and p.r. people been stupid? Particularly so. Advertising that there are on course for 2012 is at best making yourself a hostage to fortune, and possibly even an exercise in sheer lunacy. It'll cost us more money to remove that standing joke from our streets.

But anyone who thinks that we can aspire to being a true capital city while living with a second rate shabby transport infrastructure of shoogly buses is a displaying a Jambo mentality and deserves to be condemned to a season ticket in the asbestos stand at the PBS.

I completely agree with the introduction of trams as a great improvement to a city however the fundamental issue with the Edinburgh tram project is that it is a individual tramline not a network. It will not serve the city's two main hospitals and will not reach the majority of the population. In essence it a massively expensive and disruptive replacement for the 22 bus.

[steakbake]

I completely agree with the introduction of trams as a great improvement to a city however the fundamental issue with the Edinburgh tram project is that it is a individual tramline not a network. It will not serve the city's two main hospitals and will not reach the majority of the population. In essence it a massively expensive and disruptive replacement for the 22 bus.

:top marks

Would that make it a replacement tram service?

[Part/Time Supporter]

I would've preferred a subway. ( An actual one, not a Glasgow smartie tube version)

I don't think that is physically possible in Edinburgh.

[steakbake]

I don't think that is physically possible in Edinburgh.

The rock is too hard under our feet.

[Woody1985]

The whole project is a joke.

Everyone who makes comparisons and how great they are make their comparisons to other cities where networks exist. Is there another city in the world that has one line, consisting of a few miles, at a minimum cost well over half a billion pound (and rising)?

This is one ****ty line that I will be unlikely to ever use unless I move onto the 22 bus route. It's estimated that 8% of the city will use it.

It is also likely to push up my bus fares to subsidise the farce. Those same buses that people are being forced onto via the anti car agenda.

I hope the idiots involved get hit by a tram. Self obsessed ********s.

[khib70]

The whole project is a joke.

Everyone who makes comparisons and how great they are make their comparisons to other cities where networks exist. Is there another city in the world that has one line, consisting of a few miles, at a minimum cost well over half a billion pound (and rising)?

This is one ****ty line that I will be unlikely to ever use unless I move onto the 22 bus route. It's estimated that 8% of the city will use it.

It is also likely to push up my bus fares to subsidise the farce. Those same buses that people are being forced onto via the anti car agenda.

I hope the idiots involved get hit by a tram. Self obsessed ********s.
True, true

YouTube - Edinburgh Trams Fiasco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxcpbeU4bKs)
I know we've all seen this before but it's still comedy gold:greengrin

[Hainan Hibs]

I think that would've caused more chaos and quadrupled the bill.:confused:


I didn't really care about that, I just wanted a subway:greengrin


I don't think that is physically possible in Edinburgh.

Ah alright, I'd read from the bounce that supposedly it's easier to tunnel through solid rock than soft ground which would collapse? I can't debate it as I know the square root of f all about that type of stuff:greengrin

Anyway, I just wanted a subway, the one in Shanghai was fun:greengrin

[--------]

You forgot about the large wad of notes in brown envelopes in their back pockets as well Doddie.


Where Embra cooncillors are concerned, THAT surely goes without saying....



As my old Dad used to say, Embra has the finest councillors money can buy. :rolleyes:

[--------]

I didn't really care about that, I just wanted a subway:greengrin

Ah alright, I'd read from the bounce that supposedly it's easier to tunnel through solid rock than soft ground which would collapse? I can't debate it as I know the square root of f all about that type of stuff:greengrin

Anyway, I just wanted a subway, the one in Shanghai was fun:greengrin


That would be my understanding, also. Modern tunnelling gear makes light work of solid rock - you have a solid track-bed to work with, and there's far less risk of roof-falls.

Just so's everyone knows - they're re-laying the Airdrie-Bathgate line just now as well, and work there's going on almost as quickly as it is in Embra. With about the same level of disruption....

[Lucius Apuleius]

Had a job to Banknock last night, yep you heard right, Banknock......a few miles from Denny, next to Haggs.:greengrin:thumbsup:

And what is wrong with that likes??????:greengrin

(you could have popped in for a cup of tea)

[hibbybrian]

That would be my understanding, also. Modern tunnelling gear makes light work of solid rock - you have a solid track-bed to work with, and there's far less risk of roof-falls.

Bilfinger seem to have problems with tunnelling :wink: amongst other works :wink:

http://www.joconl.com/article/id27864

Since Feb 2006 I've been working on a 2 year infrastructure project initially undertaken by Bilfinger - they were evicted from the site by the client after 3 years and 8 months and less than 70% completion - at that time Bilfinger were projecting to take almost 5 years to complete the project at more than double the contracted sum :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

I completely agree with the introduction of trams as a great improvement to a city however the fundamental issue with the Edinburgh tram project is that it is a individual tramline not a network. It will not serve the city's two main hospitals and will not reach the majority of the population. In essence it a massively expensive and disruptive replacement for the 22 bus.

To be fair, the business case for the trams was around a massive expansion in housing in Granton and a massive expansion in employment at Edinburgh Park. While that development may have slowed down due to the recession, it's not disappeared. If Edinburgh is to have more housing, a lot of it will be around Granton and if Edinburgh is to have more commercial space a lot of it will be around Edinburgh Park. It might not happen as quickly as was anticipated when this process started, but when it does happen it's going to happen in the areas we thought it would.

And as that does happen, the underpinning reason for the trams becomes evident. People come to work in Edinburgh from a range of places but they use only a few routes or hubs. A lot of them already go to Edinburgh Park. And the ability of cars and buses to service an increased amount of workers there is limited, arguably has been under pressure for many years already. Likewise, increasing the amount of housing in the north of the city to meet demand means that there has to be some way of the people living there to get to work. If the only option is cars, or even buses, then we're looking at gridlock IMO. It needs a mass transit system, and for a city like Edinburgh trams are perhaps the only solution.

It really is about looking at a bigger picture, and what the city will need to sustain itself, not now or tomorrow, but in ten, twenty and thirty years time.

[J-C]

I didn't really care about that, I just wanted a subway:greengrin



Ah alright, I'd read from the bounce that supposedly it's easier to tunnel through solid rock than soft ground which would collapse? I can't debate it as I know the square root of f all about that type of stuff:greengrin

Anyway, I just wanted a subway, the one in Shanghai was fun:greengrin


I'm sure there was a proposal back in the late 40's/50's about getting an underground in Edinburgh but I think it was knocked back because of the costs involved, even way back then, tried to find a link for it but for the life of me I can't.

[Pete]

I agree completely. The experience of every city on this planet where trams have been introduced indicates that this is exactly what happens; overspend, delays, mass moans, late completion, then excitement, praise, acceptance. I know wee Scots are good at holding grudges but I can't see this city being any different from the rest.

Has the project been mismanaged? Undoubtedly. The tendering process is largely to blame, whereby contractors pitch at below what is realistic in order to secure contracts. Have the politicians and p.r. people been stupid? Particularly so. Advertising that there are on course for 2012 is at best making yourself a hostage to fortune, and possibly even an exercise in sheer lunacy. It'll cost us more money to remove that standing joke from our streets.

But anyone who thinks that we can aspire to being a true capital city while living with a second rate shabby transport infrastructure of shoogly buses is a displaying a Jambo mentality and deserves to be condemned to a season ticket in the asbestos stand at the PBS.

I don't get attitudes like this when it comes to Edinburgh buses. In my opinion they're cheap, clean and reliable when compared to other places.

The irony is that the 22 was the best of them all!

[Hainan Hibs]

I'm sure there was a proposal back in the late 40's/50's about getting an underground in Edinburgh but I think it was knocked back because of the costs involved, even way back then, tried to find a link for it but for the life of me I can't.

Never knew that. With the mess the trams are in I wouldn't want to guess what the state of an underground would be!

[Green Mikey]

To be fair, the business case for the trams was around a massive expansion in housing in Granton and a massive expansion in employment at Edinburgh Park. While that development may have slowed down due to the recession, it's not disappeared. If Edinburgh is to have more housing, a lot of it will be around Granton and if Edinburgh is to have more commercial space a lot of it will be around Edinburgh Park. It might not happen as quickly as was anticipated when this process started, but when it does happen it's going to happen in the areas we thought it would.

And as that does happen, the underpinning reason for the trams becomes evident. People come to work in Edinburgh from a range of places but they use only a few routes or hubs. A lot of them already go to Edinburgh Park. And the ability of cars and buses to service an increased amount of workers there is limited, arguably has been under pressure for many years already. Likewise, increasing the amount of housing in the north of the city to meet demand means that there has to be some way of the people living there to get to work. If the only option is cars, or even buses, then we're looking at gridlock IMO. It needs a mass transit system, and for a city like Edinburgh trams are perhaps the only solution.

The trams will not be a 'mass transit system' it will be a single tram line serving a small proportion of the city.


It really is about looking at a bigger picture, and what the city will need to sustain itself, not now or tomorrow, but in ten, twenty and thirty years time.

The bigger picture would have been to create a transport network that met our current needs as well as anticipating future growth in the city. It is a ridiculous concept to spend all this money in anticipation of future events when current issues will not be adressed now and in the future.

[Jack]

Just read a couple of articles in the Scotsman about the trams.

From what I can tell its likely the 1 (and only) route will be phased in.

The Airport to Haymarket section will, maybe, be completed in time for the local elections next year and the remainder when further funds became available.

To me that suggests the Airport to Haymarket section will be the only part built. And only last month they, TIE or the Council, were going to be looking at extending the the planed routes up the Bridges and along to Porty.

Just like the trams, free beer tomorrow folks :agree: