Miscarriages Murder in the US.

[Tinyclothes]

I'd be particularly interested in hearing what women have to say on this topic. Personally I'm firmly in the pro-choice camp, women didn't ask to be given the responsibility of child birth, pregnancy etc. and so should have the final decision as to what they do with their prgnancy.

The thing that makes me angry about this type of thing is also the fact that men seem to think that passing laws on the rights of women isn't in the least bit strange. Almost like they feel they have a responsibility to protect those poor stupid women from themselves.

Anyway, here's the link: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/utah-women-may-face-murder-charges-after-miscarriages-1913019.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/utah-women-may-face-murder-charges-after-miscarriages-1913019.html)

Tell me what you think.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I'd be particularly interested in hearing what women have to say on this topic. Personally I'm firmly in the pro-choice camp, women didn't ask to be given the responsibility of child birth, pregnancy etc. and so should have the final decision as to what they do with their prgnancy.

The thing that makes me angry about this type of thing is also the fact that men seem to think that passing laws on the rights of women isn't in the least bit strange. Almost like they feel they have a responsibility to protect those poor stupid women from themselves.

Anyway, here's the link: [/URL][url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/utah-women-may-face-murder-charges-after-miscarriages-1913019.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/utah-women-may-face-murder-charges-after-miscarriages-1913019.html)

Tell me what you think.

I can't believe how ludicrous the proposed Law is. How many miscarriages are intentional, especially given that abortion is legal? I would wager that very very few are intentional. Anybody that knows somebody that has gone through the pain of miscarriage knows how horrific it is to deal with.

It would also be near on impossible to police, as they would have to know about every pregnancy. Would every miscarriage be subject to a criminal investigation? To subject somebody to the pain of a criminal trial following the pain of miscarriage would be a real crime of atrocity.

Regarding Men deciding what is in the best interests of women, it is hardly surprising given that this case is in Utah- a State full of Mormons.

[Tinyclothes]

I can't believe how ludicrous the proposed Law is. How many miscarriages are intentional, especially given that abortion is legal? I would wager that very very few are intentional. Anybody that knows somebody that has gone through the pain of miscarriage knows how horrific it is to deal with.

It would also be near on impossible to police, as they would have to know about every pregnancy. Would every miscarriage be subject to a criminal investigation? To subject somebody to the pain of a criminal trial following the pain of miscarriage would be a real crime of atrocity.

Regarding Men deciding what is in the best interests of women, it is hardly surprising given that this case is in Utah- a State full of Mormons.

Agree with everything you say. I don't think that men legislating for women is specifically a Utah problem though, but rather pretty much a uniform one, worldwide. And one which I think should be addressed.
This story is once again highlighting just how ludicrous and outdated religious puritanicalism really is.

[Peevemor]

I can't believe how ludicrous the proposed Law is. How many miscarriages are intentional, especially given that abortion is legal? I would wager that very very few are intentional. Anybody that knows somebody that has gone through the pain of miscarriage knows how horrific it is to deal with.

It would also be near on impossible to police, as they would have to know about every pregnancy. Would every miscarriage be subject to a criminal investigation? To subject somebody to the pain of a criminal trial following the pain of miscarriage would be a real crime of atrocity.

Regarding Men deciding what is in the best interests of women, it is hardly surprising given that this case is in Utah- a State full of Mormons.

I think that in the given example, she should be charged with attempted murder. She got a guy to beat her up in an effort to kill the baby. It didn't work but the child could easily have been born brain damaged or with some other handicap.

I'm pro-choice too but what the girl tried to do is barbaric.

[Tinyclothes]

I think that in the given example, she should be charged with attempted murder. She got a guy to beat her up in an effort to kill the baby. It didn't work but the child could easily have been born brain damaged or with some other handicap.

I'm pro-choice too but what the girl tried to do is barbaric.

I'm not 100% on the law but isn't getting an abortion alot harder to obtain in states like Utah where the state isn't really seperate from the church?

It sounds to me like the final act of a desperate woman. I may be wrong entirely though.

[Peevemor]

I'm not 100% on the law but isn't getting an abortion alot harder to obtain in states like Utah where the state isn't really seperate from the church?

It sounds to me like the final act of a desperate woman. I may be wrong entirely though.

I don't know either and yes it probably was done in desperation, but it should be illegal all the same (for the safety of the expectant mothers and the children they are carrying) IMO.

[Tinyclothes]

I don't know either and yes it probably was done in desperation, but it should be illegal all the same (for the safety of the expecant mothers and the children they are carrying) IMO.

My point was that if adequate provision for the vulnerable women who find themselves pregnant was available, she wouldn't have had to take matters into her own hands in this way. As long as there is such a stigma attached to abortion, women will continue to try and find ways to terminate unwanted pregnancies in ways like this.

On another note, my friends family come from Brittany and he mentioned there'd been a huge storm over there. Were you affected?

[Peevemor]

My point was that if adequate provision for the vulnerable women who find themselves pregnant was available, she wouldn't have had to take matters into her own hands in this way. As long as there is such a stigma attached to abortion, women will continue to try and find ways to terminate unwanted pregnancies in ways like this.

I agree.


On another note, my friends family come from Brittany and he mentioned there'd been a huge storm over there. Were you affected?Yes , it was a bit breezy (100mph+ winds). I'm pretty happy as our new house was finished only 5-6 weeks ago and I gave it a thorough check yesterday morning - no leaks, no slipped slates, nothing. :aok:

[Beefster]

I'm not 100% on the law but isn't getting an abortion alot harder to obtain in states like Utah where the state isn't really seperate from the church?

It sounds to me like the final act of a desperate woman. I may be wrong entirely though.

Women requesting an abortion have to have counselling and then wait 24 hours to confirm their decision.

If she didn't want an abortion, they don't have adoption in Utah?

I'm pro-choice but trying to have your foetus beaten to death deserves to be punished accordingly.

[Tinyclothes]

Women requesting an abortion have to have counselling and then wait 24 hours to confirm their decision.

If she didn't want an abortion, they don't have adoption in Utah?

I'm pro-choice but trying to have your foetus beaten to death deserves to be punished accordingly.

You don't think it's a bit glib to just say 'no abortion, just adopt it out instead? I honestly don't think it's the same thing at all.

[Beefster]

You don't think it's a bit glib to just say 'no abortion, just adopt it out instead? I honestly don't think it's the same thing at all.

I've already told you that it's straight-forward to get an abortion. The state just wants the individual to be sure.

[Tinyclothes]

I've already told you that it's straight-forward to get an abortion. The state just wants the individual to be sure.

If it's as straight forward as you say, what possible motivation could she have had to bypass that option and get someone to punch the baby out of her? It just seems so strange.

[Beefster]

If it's as straight forward as you say, what possible motivation could she have had to bypass that option and get someone to punch the baby out of her? It just seems so strange.

Indeed it does. I'm sure the trial will sort it out.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I think that in the given example, she should be charged with attempted murder. She got a guy to beat her up in an effort to kill the baby. It didn't work but the child could easily have been born brain damaged or with some other handicap.

I'm pro-choice too but what the girl tried to do is barbaric.

I'm totally with you on this. What she did was horrific. However, this is one case. And in similar instances it should be decided on a case by case basis.

The proposed law changes are ludicrous.

[Tinyclothes]

Indeed it does. I'm sure the trial will sort it out.

Didn't you read the article? The whole point of them trying to pass the law was because she could not be prosecuted because there is nothing in American law that says this is illegal.

As an aside, I think she was too far into her pregnancy to have it terminated legally. 7 months.

[Tinyclothes]

It says she was in her seventh month of pregnancy - that makes abortion illegal pretty much anywhere doesn't it?

Yup. One step ahead of you old green. Geddit?

Old green rhymes with old Bean. MEGALOLZ.

[Caversham Green]

Yup. One step ahead of you old green. Geddit?

Old green rhymes with old Bean. MEGALOLZ.

:agree: Beat me to the delete as well.

[Beefster]

Didn't you read the article? The whole point of them trying to pass the law was because she could not be prosecuted because there is nothing in American law that says this is illegal.

As an aside, I think she was too far into her pregnancy to have it terminated legally. 7 months.

Idiot moment for me. Apologies.

[HibsMax]

I think that in the given example, she should be charged with attempted murder. She got a guy to beat her up in an effort to kill the baby. It didn't work but the child could easily have been born brain damaged or with some other handicap.

I'm pro-choice too but what the girl tried to do is barbaric.

:agree:

I had a preformed opinion before I followed the link but as soon as I read the story I changed my mind. What that girl did was ridiculously stupid. I consider myself to be pro-choice but unless there is some pressing medical reason to do so I do not support the idea of termination at 7 months - be it through abortion as we know it or hiring someone to beat the crap out of you.

[RyeSloan]

I don't agree with the law they are trying to pass but do agree that they should look to ensure they have adequate ways of prosocuting anyone who would do something as crazy as that woman did in future....as ever though legislating for one without criminalising the other has never been easy.

[Speedy]

Didn't you read the article? The whole point of them trying to pass the law was because she could not be prosecuted because there is nothing in American law that says this is illegal.

As an aside, I think she was too far into her pregnancy to have it terminated legally. 7 months.

:agree: :top marks

The way I've read it is to punish people who try to do the same, they aren't actually making miscarriages illegal so they won't need to keep records as such. They are simply trying to put this law in place in case a similar situation happens again.

[Dinkydoo]

I think that in the given example, she should be charged with attempted murder. She got a guy to beat her up in an effort to kill the baby. It didn't work but the child could easily have been born brain damaged or with some other handicap.

I'm pro-choice too but what the girl tried to do is barbaric.

:top marks

If people can get put behind bars for having incest sex then I can't understand why she has gotten away with trying to kill her unborn child. Both having incest sex and assualiting a pregnant women can have the same outcome, a severly brain damaged child.

I'm pro choice as well but having an abortion fairly quickly after finding out your pregnant is a completely different kettle of fish to paying some guy to smack you in the stomach.

It's sick. :grr: