Stoke V Arsenal

[Judas Iscariot]

Aaron Ramsey has just had his leg snapped by the Stoke captain :boo hoo:

Horrible, horrible viewing :jamboak:

[Judas Iscariot]

Injury is so bad Sky haven't shown one single replay of the tackle..

Such a shame for the young lad!

[Nameless]

I'm no fan of Arsenal, but I do feel for Ramsay. How many times have Arsenal lost players to leg breaks, it is unbelievable.

[thekaratekid]

They won't show a replay it was that bad

The lower half of his leg was hanging loose :bitchy:

[Albanian Hibs]

Missed the tackle but going by the reaction of the other players and that they wouldn't show any replays it was obviously a horrible one

[hibee1875]

I didnt see it so was waiting on a replay but it was that bad they didnt show one.

Re-wound the tv, no wonder all the players looked so distressed, horrible.

[GloryGlory]

They're not even showing a replay or what treatment he's getting on the pitch. Comparing it to the Eduardo injury and even Buss of Coventry City.

[hibztilltheend]

I'm no fan of Arsenal, but I do feel for Ramsay. How many times have Arsenal lost players to leg breaks, it is unbelievable.

:agree:eduardo,nasri and now ramsey in the last 2 years. also noticed shawcross crying as he left the pitch.

[Judas Iscariot]

I've rewound it a few times just to see the tackle and I don't think there was any intent to injure him by Shawcross..

No wonder the Stoke captain was in tears though..

[thekaratekid]

They're not even showing a replay or what treatment he's getting on the pitch. Comparing it to the Eduardo injury and even Buss of Coventry City.

IIRC Schmeicel had to go for counselling after the Busst injury.

[James Connolly]

I've rewound it a few times just to see the tackle and I don't think there was any intent to injure him by Shawcross..

No wonder the Stoke captain was in tears though..

Agreed; Shawcross never went out to do Ramsay. Horrible injury for the boy though.

[--------]

Shawcross red-carded for 'serious foul play' - was the tackle that bad?

Not the injury - I can understand that that's very bad - but I mean the tackler's intent?

[PapillonVert]

IIRC Schmeicel had to go for counselling after the Busst injury.

The Stoke player who was sent off was distraught - not for being sent off but because of seeing the injury.

Hope the young player Ramsay can come back from this. He's only 19.

[Scooter]

I would say Ramsay went in worse! I've replayed it a few times. If he didn't break his leg I think he would be unlucky to get booked, infact I'd appeal

[Arch Stanton]

I didnt see it so was waiting on a replay but it was that bad they didnt show one.

Re-wound the tv, no wonder all the players looked so distressed, horrible.

I forgot I could rewind (god knows why I did, but it was giving me a bad feeling) - the thing is it was Ramsay that made the tackle and nicked the ball away - I am not convinced the stoke player did anything deliberately - less intent than Kingston's one earlier today I would have said.

I didn't look too closely but it didn't seem as if the actual match footage showed anything horrific - you just realise it was really bad from the players reactions - lets hope he is back before too long.

[Albanian Hibs]

3-1 Gooners :thumbsup:

[Judas Iscariot]

2-1 to Arsenal now, well done Cesc..

3-1 Vermaalen..

Least they deserve after the earlier incident :agree:

[Albanian Hibs]

2nd goal Fabregas pen
3rd goal Vermalen (sp.)

[Jamesie]

http://www.youtube.com/user/nyc1585

Pretty nasty, but to be fair I think accidental more than anything.

[givescotlandfreedom]

I would say Ramsay went in worse! I've replayed it a few times. If he didn't break his leg I think he would be unlucky to get booked, infact I'd appeal

I hope if the Stoke boy's done nothing wrong he has his card rescinded as he will always be synonymous with the injury even if the intent wasn't there. I've not seen the incident though so could be talking pish.

[.Sean.]

http://www.youtube.com/user/nyc1585 (http://www.youtube.com/user/nyc1585)

Pretty nasty, but to be fair I think accidental more than anything.
Sickening. Look at the state of his leg :bitchy:

All the best.

[Judas Iscariot]

Sickening. Look at the state of his leg :bitchy:

All the best.

I'm not going to watch it.. :bitchy:

Can't watch stuff like that :boo hoo:

Don't want to start hesitating before I go in for tackles or I'll DEFO end up with a sore one..

Hope he makes a speedy and full recovery :agree:

[Scooter]

Wenger is talking absolute pants it's WASNT a bad challenge! Does anyone else agree with me or am I talking rubbish

[Gus]

cesc on ssn now saying not enough protection on players.......

awful injury

no timescale on rehab on an injury like that, cracking young player

Get better soon

[hibee_girl]

Wenger is talking absolute pants it's WASNT a bad challenge! Does anyone else agree with me or am I talking rubbish

:agree:

It wasn't a bad challenge at all

[col02]

Having seen it via the link posted it was a very unfortunate accident with no malice in there at all. I wish the young player a speedy recovery!

[Judas Iscariot]

Wenger is talking absolute pants it's WASNT a bad challenge! Does anyone else agree with me or am I talking rubbish

Your talkin rubbish regardless Scott :agree:

Wenger's emotions are obviously running high at the moment and he's seen 3 horrific injuries to his players in the last few years so he's clearly upset..

I've not watched the tackle enough in close detail to decide if it was a DANGEROUS tackle or not but it WAS horrible..

[Gus]

Wenger is angry, one of his players could potentially have his career gone........

but he goes on about the physical side all the time, its a man's game ffs although i would never want to see anyone get injured

but archie for the sake of saying it....you are talking rubbish:wink:

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

Wenger is talking absolute pants it's WASNT a bad challenge! Does anyone else agree with me or am I talking rubbish

Just watched it a few times. Really struggling to make my mind up. He certainly didnt go in with any intent. The injury looks a shocker :boo hoo:

[Scooter]

Wenger is angry, one of his players could potentially have his career gone........

but he goes on about the physical side all the time, its a man's game ffs although i would never want to see anyone get injured

but archie for the sake of saying it....you are talking rubbish:wink:

I know he's angry. I love wenger and I love arsenal. But I do feel for shawcross after those comments

[Arch Stanton]

Wenger is talking absolute pants it's WASNT a bad challenge! Does anyone else agree with me or am I talking rubbish

I wasn't happy with what Wenger said either but maybe he was speaking without having reviewed the incident - he's apologised for after-match comments before as I recall.

It wasn't a tackle on his player as he claimed - it all happened at lightening speed and I'm certain the Stoke player was trying to get the ball away before the challenge came in. In fact, if Ramsay was the merest fraction late with his tackle then it could well have been the Stoke player getting rushed to hospital.

[hibee]

Wenger is talking absolute pants it's WASNT a bad challenge! Does anyone else agree with me or am I talking rubbish

I've watched it several times in slow motion and he didn't do anything, he was running with the ball when Ramsay came flying in to tackle him so he tried to kick the ball on then Ramsay's leg hit his, the injury got him the red card, not the tackle.

[woody47]

I've watched it several times in slow motion and he didn't do anything, he was running with the ball when Ramsay came flying in to tackle him so he tried to kick the ball on then Ramsay's leg hit his, the injury got him the red card, not the tackle.

Absolutely agree. No intent other than going for the ball. Ian Murray does this sort of thing every week. But you feel for the lad. Hate seeing any player being hurt like that.

[NOLA]

everytime i've seen ramsey he has looked a top quality player, was my MOM when Wales beat Scotland, hope he makes a full recovery.

[PiemanP]

cant see any intent to injure the arsenal boy at all.

Ramsey is just very very unlucky, unfortunatly in a contact sport these things will happen.

lets he makes a full recovery :agree:

[AugustaHibs]

YouTube - Aaron Ramsey Serious Injury Vs Stoke City (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNAkpmPRtf0)

YUUK :jamboak:

[Gus]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47387000/jpg/_47387837_ramsey.jpg

is it his right leg?awful injury

[scott_hfc1875]

possably the worst pic yet

http://i48.tinypic.com/2rz7uid.jpg (http://i48.tinypic.com/2rz7uid.jpg)

i did warn you:jamboak:

[whereswallace?]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47387000/jpg/_47387837_ramsey.jpg

is it his right leg?awful injury

That is absolutely sickening.Not saw the tackle but that picture just made me cringe.Hope he recovers from that.

[lapsedhibee]

2-1 to Arsenal now, well done Cesc..

3-1 Vermaalen..

Least they deserve after the earlier incident :agree:

I don't think I've ever watched a game where a side being held at 1-1 so thoroughly deserved to go on and win. Nothing to do with the injury to Ramsey, though. Was just that for the entire game Stoke contributed absolutely nothing worth seeing. Adding to the tedium of Delap's ritual throw-in ceremony, Stoke played nothing but hoofball throughout. Pump it high up to big, physical, player, hope he flicks it on to other big, physical, player, hope the ball bobbles about the penalty area and it falls to Stoke player's feet. Even uglier than Allardyce's Bolton. These two teams today seemed to be playing a completely different game. (Don't think there was a bad tackle in the whole match, though, so Wenger's comments maybe unjustified on this occasion.)

[bringbackjoeT!!]

Only judging it by the live action as i dont want to watch a replay but it looked to me like ramsey just nicked the ball ahead of shawcross and the stoke player went right through him and was a desreved red card, maybe wrong though- horrible for him is he is a cracking wee playerin the typical arsenal mould. As it goes from what I have seen of Shawcross in the past i dont think he is a dirty player unlike a few of his stoke team mates.

[AugustaHibs]

possably the worst pic yet

[/URL][url]http://i48.tinypic.com/2rz7uid.jpg (http://i48.tinypic.com/2rz7uid.jpg)

i did warn you:jamboak:

Please c'mon delete that. :jamboak:

[Sir David Gray]

Like the Martin Taylor challenge on Eduardo a couple of years ago, I don't think Ryan Shawcross' tackle was all that bad and I honestly believe that he's only received a red card because the referee has seen the extent of the injury that Aaron Ramsey has suffered.

Obviously what's happened to Ramsey is horrific and I wish the guy all the best in his recovery but I think it's important to stress the fact that I don't think the tackle was over the top or particularly dangerous. It's just unfortunate the way it's turned out.

Fraser Fyvie could quite easily have suffered a similar injury as a result of Ian Murray's strong but fair tackle on him earlier in the season, fortunately he didn't.

It's terrible for Shawcross as well, you could see just how visibly upset he was as he left the field.

[Marabou Stork]

If Ramsey wasn't injured there, that would be a yellow card at most. An unfortunate incident is all it is.

The Arsenal players disgraced themselves after the tackle with the way they acted towards an obviously distressed Shawcross.

[Gus]

Like the Martin Taylor challenge on Eduardo a couple of years ago, I don't think Ryan Shawcross' tackle was all that bad and I honestly believe that he's only received a red card because the referee has seen the extent of the injury that Aaron Ramsey has suffered.

Obviously what's happened to Ramsey is horrific and I wish the guy all the best in his recovery but I think it's important to stress the fact that I don't think the tackle was over the top or particularly dangerous. It's just unfortunate the way it's turned out.

Fraser Fyvie could quite easily have suffered a similar injury as a result of Ian Murray's strong but fair tackle on him earlier in the season, fortunately he didn't.

It's terrible for Shawcross as well, you could see just how visibly upset he was as he left the field.

:agree::top marks

[The Voice Of Reason]

Like the Martin Taylor challenge on Eduardo a couple of years ago, I don't think Ryan Shawcross' tackle was all that bad and I honestly believe that he's only received a red card because the referee has seen the extent of the injury that Aaron Ramsey has suffered.

Obviously what's happened to Ramsey is horrific and I wish the guy all the best in his recovery but I think it's important to stress the fact that I don't think the tackle was over the top or particularly dangerous. It's just unfortunate the way it's turned out.

Fraser Fyvie could quite easily have suffered a similar injury as a result of Ian Murray's strong but fair tackle on him earlier in the season, fortunately he didn't.

It's terrible for Shawcross as well, you could see just how visibly upset he was as he left the field.

:agree: :top marks

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

possably the worst pic yet

http://i48.tinypic.com/2rz7uid.jpg (http://i48.tinypic.com/2rz7uid.jpg)

i did warn you:jamboak:

That is absolutely hideous.

[Judas Iscariot]

I've managed to stomach it and watch it a few times again and it's a stupid, careless and reckless tackle by Shawcross :bitchy:

Not malicious but pretty dangerous nontheless!

Just because there was no intent to harm doesn't excuse the challenge IMO

[Arch Stanton]

I've managed to stomach it and watch it a few times again and it's a stupid, careless and reckless tackle by Shawcross :bitchy:

Not malicious but pretty dangerous nontheless!

Just because there was no intent to harm doesn't excuse the challenge IMO

You'll need to explain that to me then. How does someone in possession of the football tackle someone who isn't in possession of the football?

[SidBurns]

I've managed to stomach it and watch it a few times again and it's a stupid, careless and reckless tackle by Shawcross :bitchy:

Not malicious but pretty dangerous nontheless!

Just because there was no intent to harm doesn't excuse the challenge IMO

He went for a 50/50 ball that Ramsay JUST got to first so yeah, how is it stupid, careless and reckless!?! Get a grip, these things happen. All the best to Ramsay though, may he fully recover ASAP.

[--------]

He went for a 50/50 ball that Ramsay JUST got to first so yeah, how is it stupid, careless and reckless!?! Get a grip, these things happen. All the best to Ramsay though, may he fully recover ASAP.


They were both moving very fast, and it seemed to me that Ramsay just nicked it off Shawcross's toes and the momentum of the two players led to the collision. Looked like a case of 6 and two 3's to me, but I'm only seeing it on YouTube and the picture isn't good. I imagine it'll be on MoTD, so I'll see it there.

Shocking injury, but right now I'm not clear just how far Shawcross was responsible.

[Arch Stanton]

They were both moving very fast, and it seemed to me that Ramsay just nicked it off Shawcross's toes and the momentum of the two players led to the collision. Looked like a case of 6 and two 3's to me, but I'm only seeing it on YouTube and the picture isn't good. I imagine it'll be on MoTD, so I'll see it there.

Shocking injury, but right now I'm not clear just how far Shawcross was responsible.

You might need to record it so you can replay it in slo-mo then - they may not try to analyse the tackle - not if they deal with it the way Sky dealt with it.

I've never been disappointed with Andy Gray before but I was tonight - he made absolutely no comment on what he thought happened and who, if anyone, was to blame. Instead he made quite a few very rambling comments about how teams can be physically challenging towards Arsenal.

OK, maybe they felt they had to be careful about what they said but the net result is that Shawcross is being made to be the villain and up till now I've seen and heard nothing to even suggest that that might be the case.

[--------]

You might need to record it so you can replay it in slo-mo then - they may not try to analyse the tackle - not if they deal with it the way Sky dealt with it.

I've never been disappointed with Andy Gray before but I was tonight - he made absolutely no comment on what he thought happened and who, if anyone, was to blame. Instead he made quite a few very rambling comments about how teams can be physically challenging towards Arsenal.

OK, maybe they felt they had to be careful about what they said but the net result is that Shawcross is being made to be the villain and up till now I've seen and heard nothing to even suggest that that might be the case.



They just have, and from the slow-mo and freeze-frame I don't think Shawcross had any intent to injure. In fact, it seems clear to me that his intention is to play the ball.

Wenger is a senior manager and IMO his comments afterwards were out of order. Shawcross himself is a young player (in his early 20's) and hasn't the record of being a dirty player. Wenger actually suggested that teams were going out of their way to injure Arsenal players - there was nothing in the match highlights to suggest that Shawcross deliberately sought to injure Ramsay that I could see.

In fact Lineker, Hansen and Shearer were all agreed that while the injury was a dreadful one, the comments made by Wenger demanded that they show the incident in detail out of fairness to Ryan Shawcross. They showed the incident in detail in order that Wenger's accusations should be tested properly. IMO Tony Pulis was justifiably angry at Wenger's coments about RS.

Yes, it was a foul. Yes the referee was justified in penalising Shawcross. But Shawcross himself is a young player with his career before him, and I would be very disappointed if Arsenal (Wenger in particular) treated this incident in such a way as to demonise the lad or make it impossible for him to continue in the game.

[Sir David Gray]

They just have, and from the slow-mo and freeze-frame I don't think Shawcross had any intent to injure. In fact, it seems clear to me that his intention is to play the ball.

Wenger is a senior manager and IMO his comments afterwards were out of order. Shawcross himself is a young player (in his early 20's) and hasn't the record of being a dirty player. Wenger actually suggested that teams were going out of their way to injure Arsenal players - there was nothing in the match highlights to suggest that Shawcross deliberately sought to injure Ramsay that I could see.

In fact Lineker, Hansen and Shearer were all agreed that while the injury was a dreadful one, the comments made by Wenger demanded that they show the incident in detail out of fairness to Ryan Shawcross. They showed the incident in detail in order that Wenger's accusations should be tested properly. IMO Tony Pulis was justifiably angry at Wenger's coments about RS.

Yes, it was a foul. Yes the referee was justified in penalising Shawcross. But Shawcross himself is a young player with his career before him, and I would be very disappointed if Arsenal (Wenger in particular) treated this incident in such a way as to demonise the lad or make it impossible for him to continue in the game.

:agree: I can understand Wenger being upset at yet another one of his players receiving a very serious injury but, even still, his comments are out of line and totally misinformed.

I know that he later retracted the statement but his comments after the Eduardo incident were even worse with him initially calling for Martin Taylor to be banned for life from playing professional football. That was despite the fact that Taylor's challenge was a poor one but certainly could not be described as malicious. IMO of course.

You could see just how distraught Shawcross was right after it happened and Wenger saw all of this at the time so for him to say things like this afterwards is pretty poor and unnecessary.

[Judas Iscariot]

I wonder what this board would be like of that was say, David Wotherspoon after a Gary Kenneth tackle :cool2:

[bringbackjoeT!!]

They just have, and from the slow-mo and freeze-frame I don't think Shawcross had any intent to injure. In fact, it seems clear to me that his intention is to play the ball.

Wenger is a senior manager and IMO his comments afterwards were out of order. Shawcross himself is a young player (in his early 20's) and hasn't the record of being a dirty player. Wenger actually suggested that teams were going out of their way to injure Arsenal players - there was nothing in the match highlights to suggest that Shawcross deliberately sought to injure Ramsay that I could see.

In fact Lineker, Hansen and Shearer were all agreed that while the injury was a dreadful one, the comments made by Wenger demanded that they show the incident in detail out of fairness to Ryan Shawcross. They showed the incident in detail in order that Wenger's accusations should be tested properly. IMO Tony Pulis was justifiably angry at Wenger's coments about RS.

Yes, it was a foul. Yes the referee was justified in penalising Shawcross. But Shawcross himself is a young player with his career before him, and I would be very disappointed if Arsenal (Wenger in particular) treated this incident in such a way as to demonise the lad or make it impossible for him to continue in the game.


To be fair to Wenger if you were manager and you had just seen one of your bright young prospects had his leg badly broken after seeing 2 of your other players had the same awful injury in past tackles, in the heat of the moment no matter how experienced you are you are bound to be upset and want to blame someone. Im no Arsenal fan but they play some unbelievable football and a number of managers go up against them with the sole tactic of spoiling the game, roughing them up and fouling all match, Stoke being a case in point.

[PC Stamp]

The funny thing about Wenger is his incredible ability to clearly see incidents that he wants to talk about (usually involving something going against Arsenal) whilst also possessing an almost uncanny ability not to see anything he doesn't want to talk about (usually something controversial involving Arsenal or something going in Arsenal's favour.)

IMHO he was way off the mark regarding his comments on this particular incident. An unfortunate accident with an unusually nasty outcome.

[Sir David Gray]

I wonder what this board would be like of that was say, David Wotherspoon after a Gary Kenneth tackle :cool2:

I'd like to think that I would be balanced in my view of the incident and if it was a challenge like the one that Shawcross made today, I would hope that most Hibs fans would accept that it was just one of those unfortunate things that sadly occur from time to time in a contact sport.

I don't even think the Shawcross tackle was the worst tackle I've seen on MOTD tonight. I thought the Liam Ridgewell tackle that took out James McCarthy and, inadvertently, the linesman was worse.

[Arch Stanton]

To be fair to Wenger if you were manager and you had just seen one of your bright young prospects had his leg badly broken after seeing 2 of your other players had the same awful injury in past tackles, in the heat of the moment no matter how experienced you are you are bound to be upset and want to blame someone. Im no Arsenal fan but they play some unbelievable football and a number of managers go up against them with the sole tactic of spoiling the game, roughing them up and fouling all match, Stoke being a case in point.

Actually no, if I'm being honest, I reckon that having seen it twice before it should make it easier to deal with. I'd certainly rather be in his shoes than in the shoes of an ER nurse who could be dealing with worse injuries 3 times a night.

Like any manager he will manipulate any situation any way he can to his own advantage and that's what he did tonight IMO.

[madabouthibs]

We see Murray challenging harder than that every week.
I think the ref sent him off for his own good, but what he should have done is given him a yellow, (which probably wasn't even justified IMHO) then went over and told his manager to hook him immediately. I think any manager would have taken that advice.

[lapsedhibee]

I didn't record it and rewind several times, but watched the analysis on MOTD. Although all the pundits were saying "no malicious intent", they freeze-framed the action in such a way that made it look as if Shawcross's tackle was over the ball. And they also said it was a "bad challenge". I wonder if there's possibly a bit too much sympathy for Shawcross here. No doubt he did not intend to break Ramsey's leg, but if you tackle over the ball, it doesn't matter what's going in your head beforehand (or afterwards) - you should be off the pitch and suffer whatever vilification is thrown at you for the consequences.

And to the poster who said it's a man's game, is that what you would want to watch week in week out - Stoke "muscular" hoofball, or Arsenal?

Pulis's argument that Shawcross is not a dirty player is neither here nor there. If you're a young captain of a "muscular" team and your whole side is getting ripped apart, you may in the heat of the moment get slightly frustrated and do something about it that you later regret. Again, a limited amount of sympathy is appropriate - sympathy for Shawcross having made a bad, bad error of judgement, which we all make from time to time, not for being one of the innocent victims in an "unfortunate accident".

[Arch Stanton]

I didn't record it and rewind several times, but watched the analysis on MOTD. Although all the pundits were saying "no malicious intent", they freeze-framed the action in such a way that made it look as if Shawcross's tackle was over the ball. And they also said it was a "bad challenge". I wonder if there's possibly a bit too much sympathy for Shawcross here. No doubt he did not intend to break Ramsey's leg, but if you tackle over the ball, it doesn't matter what's going in your head beforehand (or afterwards) - you should be off the pitch and suffer whatever vilification is thrown at you for the consequences.

And to the poster who said it's a man's game, is that what you would want to watch week in week out - Stoke "muscular" hoofball, or Arsenal?

Pulis's argument that Shawcross is not a dirty player is neither here nor there. If you're a young captain of a "muscular" team and your whole side is getting ripped apart, you may in the heat of the moment get slightly frustrated and do something about it that you later regret. Again, a limited amount of sympathy is appropriate - sympathy for Shawcross having made a bad, bad error of judgement, which we all make from time to time, not for being one of the innocent victims in an "unfortunate accident".

Didn't see MotD, and therefore the freeze frame, but I watched in slo-mo a few times. I would tend to defer to the view of professionals who have played at that level because they can guage how much intention there was and what kind of fouling takes place - however in this case I am not convinced.

From what you say Shawcross had decided against keeping the ball in favour of injuring an opponent. These are the only two possibilities - I just can't see any third possibility whereby the was bad judgement on Shawcross's part.

[stubru59]

Have watched this 101 times and it looks as if the leg break occurred just before the tackle is made.

Some of the still pics appear to support this. The follow on tackle would hardly have helped.

A robust 50-50 challenge with consequences none of us want to see. On another day it might not have even warranted a booking.

[Hibs Class]

The funny thing about Wenger is his incredible ability to clearly see incidents that he wants to talk about (usually involving something going against Arsenal) whilst also possessing an almost uncanny ability not to see anything he doesn't want to talk about (usually something controversial involving Arsenal or something going in Arsenal's favour.)

IMHO he was way off the mark regarding his comments on this particular incident. An unfortunate accident with an unusually nasty outcome.


This sums it up for me. Wenger is a fantastic manager, absolutely no doubt, but his biggest weakness in all his time managing Arsenal has been his stunning, nauseating hyprocrisy. Usually when it is not seeing a transgression by one of his players it is relatively harmless, but when it involves the villification of Taylor and now Shawcross it is extremely damaging to these players and unacceptable.

[Judas Iscariot]

Have watched this 101 times and it looks as if the leg break occurred just before the tackle is made.

Some of the still pics appear to support this. The follow on tackle would hardly have helped.

A robust 50-50 challenge with consequences none of us want to see. On another day it might not have even warranted a booking.

:confused:


So what broke his leg? Thin air? Grass?

[Gus]

:confused:


So what broke his leg? Thin air? Grass?


i have seen it many times now and the still pics, his ankle is going one way & would of been twisted at the worst but the tackle that followed though has done the damage

clumsey tackle - yes
bad timed - yes
intent - no

collisions/tackles like this happen all the time, my fear is now folk will only start going into a tackle 50%........now thats when injuries are caused

[Wotherspiniesta]

YouTube - Aaron Ramsey // Compilation // Get Well Soon. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyLt6I7Hyac)
Special player, hope he can make a full recovery.

[hibee_girl]

Have watched this 101 times and it looks as if the leg break occurred just before the tackle is made.

Some of the still pics appear to support this. The follow on tackle would hardly have helped.

A robust 50-50 challenge with consequences none of us want to see. On another day it might not have even warranted a booking.

I thought that too after seeing some of the photos, the way his leg is turned you can see something isn't right and that's before Shawcross even touched him

[PC Stamp]

:confused:


So what broke his leg? Thin air? Grass?
Happened to Djibril Cisse. Caught his studs/leg in the turf as he stretched for a ball. Friendly ... France v China 2004 ish?

You can do your cruciate in such fashion and no reason why you couldn't break a bone either. Not saying that's the case here, but from certain angles it doesn't look too good before the tackle is made though the contact clearly wouldn't have helped.

[iwasthere1972]

They just have, and from the slow-mo and freeze-frame I don't think Shawcross had any intent to injure. In fact, it seems clear to me that his intention is to play the ball.

Wenger is a senior manager and IMO his comments afterwards were out of order. Shawcross himself is a young player (in his early 20's) and hasn't the record of being a dirty player. Wenger actually suggested that teams were going out of their way to injure Arsenal players - there was nothing in the match highlights to suggest that Shawcross deliberately sought to injure Ramsay that I could see.

In fact Lineker, Hansen and Shearer were all agreed that while the injury was a dreadful one, the comments made by Wenger demanded that they show the incident in detail out of fairness to Ryan Shawcross. They showed the incident in detail in order that Wenger's accusations should be tested properly. IMO Tony Pulis was justifiably angry at Wenger's coments about RS.

Yes, it was a foul. Yes the referee was justified in penalising Shawcross. But Shawcross himself is a young player with his career before him, and I would be very disappointed if Arsenal (Wenger in particular) treated this incident in such a way as to demonise the lad or make it impossible for him to continue in the game.

:agree: Watched the tackle on Ramsay a few times and to be truthful I couldn't see any malice in it. No studs showing etc.

I would expect Wenger to come out and publicly apologise to Ryan Shawcross after he has had time to calm down, look at the video replay and BBC MOTD panel comments.

Ryan Shawcross as you say is not a dirty player and was obviously upset at the incident.

I like Arsenal but Wenger is a pancake thrower of the highest order.

[Dunbar Hibee]

Unfortunate for Ramsay but was not a bad challenge whatsoever.

[--------]

To be fair to Wenger if you were manager and you had just seen one of your bright young prospects had his leg badly broken after seeing 2 of your other players had the same awful injury in past tackles, in the heat of the moment no matter how experienced you are you are bound to be upset and want to blame someone. Im no Arsenal fan but they play some unbelievable football and a number of managers go up against them with the sole tactic of spoiling the game, roughing them up and fouling all match, Stoke being a case in point.


The funny thing about Wenger is his incredible ability to clearly see incidents that he wants to talk about (usually involving something going against Arsenal) whilst also possessing an almost uncanny ability not to see anything he doesn't want to talk about (usually something controversial involving Arsenal or something going in Arsenal's favour.)

IMHO he was way off the mark regarding his comments on this particular incident. An unfortunate accident with an unusually nasty outcome.

What Cliff says. Wenger's catch-phrase whenever one of Arsenal's opponents has a complaint is "I'm afraid I didn't see it," but he invariably has 20-20 vision when it's the other way round.

Which leaves me wondering just how honest M. Wenger really is. The two incidents in Scottish football that I would insist WERE malicious were the Hughes foul on Bobby Duncan back in 1969, and the Simpson foul on Ian Durrant.

YouTube - Neil Simpson Tackle On Ian Durrant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJdrGvlDXI8)

This incident has a different quality to it. IMO, of course.



Have watched this 101 times and it looks as if the leg break occurred just before the tackle is made.

Some of the still pics appear to support this. The follow on tackle would hardly have helped.

A robust 50-50 challenge with consequences none of us want to see. On another day it might not have even warranted a booking.

Oddly enough, that's what I thought when I saw it on MotD. I thought I must be mistaken, but it's interesting that you and others thought the same.

Ramsay's leg appears to be bent oddly as he goes into the challenge, before Shawcross makes contact. If all his weight was on that leg, and the bones of the calf already flexing under stress, it actually wouldn't take a lot of additional pressure to cause a break.

Ramsay's quickness and anticipation may in fact have worked against him - it looked to me a 50-50 ball which Ramsay won by a split second, leaving Shawcross coming in on him while his leg was under stress, bearing all his weight. A foul, and one with horrendous consequences, but not the well-thought-out with-malice-aforethought job Wenger was alleging against the Stoke player IMO.

I also noticed that (apart from Fabregas, who hit Shawcross on the back of the head, from behind, IIRC) one of the Arsenal players reacted violently towards him when he went over to Ramsay on his way off the pitch.

[lapsedhibee]

From what you say Shawcross had decided against keeping the ball in favour of injuring an opponent. These are the only two possibilities - I just can't see any third possibility whereby the was bad judgement on Shawcross's part.
I think it possible that Shawcross may have decided to make an over-robust tackle, and may have regretted the consequence. So not primarily focused on the ball, yet not determined to cause injury either.

All speculation of course, but players who are not known as dirty players can nevertheless be capable of dangerous fouls.


Wenger's catch-phrase whenever one of Arsenal's opponents has a complaint is "I'm afraid I didn't see it," but he invariably has 20-20 vision when it's the other way round.

He must know that that caused people everywhere to rip the pish, because he doesn't say it anymore.



I also noticed that (apart from Fabregas, who hit Shawcross on the back of the head, from behind, IIRC) one of the Arsenal players reacted violently towards him when he went over to Ramsay on his way off the pitch.
Bendtner pushed Shawcross away when he went to commiserate with Ramsey on the stretcher.

[--------]

He must know that that caused people everywhere to rip the pish, because he doesn't say it anymore.

He may not say it any more, but his eyesight's no better.


Bendtner pushed Shawcross away when he went to commiserate with Ramsey on the stretcher.

Ah. OK. Didn't see that. Fair enough.

[lapsedhibee]

:agree: Watched the tackle on Ramsay a few times and to be truthful I couldn't see any malice in it. No studs showing etc.

I would expect Wenger to come out and publicly apologise to Ryan Shawcross after he has had time to calm down, look at the video replay and BBC MOTD panel comments.

Ryan Shawcross as you say is not a dirty player and was obviously upset at the incident.

I like Arsenal but Wenger is a pancake thrower of the highest order.

:confused: Hansen said it was a bad challenge. "Bad challenge" is the strongest description any of them ever use on that program for any foul. They never say a player dived - they always say he went to ground, went over too easily, etc etc etc. The panellists clearly didn't want Shawcross's career ended - he's in the Engerlund squad, incidentally, and they've got some tournament or other coming up - but I wouldn't be too sure they all thought he was entirely innocent. Will be interesting to see if there's an appeal against the red, and the outcome.

And it would be a Mark Magooism to argue that "no malice" should mean "no card".

[Hibee_Rab]

:confused: Hansen said it was a bad challenge. "Bad challenge" is the strongest description any of them ever use on that program for any foul. They never say a player dived - they always say he went to ground, went over too easily, etc etc etc. The panellists clearly didn't want Shawcross's career ended - he's in the Engerlund squad, incidentally, and they've got some tournament or other coming up - but I wouldn't be too sure they all thought he was entirely innocent. Will be interesting to see if there's an appeal against the red, and the outcome.

And it would be a Mark Magooism to argue that "no malice" should mean "no card".

No chance they will appeal after an injury like that. I doubt shawcross would want them to anyway.

[Rory89]

Arsene Wenger manages to yet again come across as a complete and utter bellend with his post match comments.

We all know how gutted he must be feeling for Ramsay, but put yourself in the position of Shawcross. If I went in for a challenge like that and turned around to see a 19 year old prospect on the deck with a mangled leg (potentially career ending injury), I'd feel distressed, guilty, emotional and feint all in one. Then you hear Wenger saying what a disgrace you are when in reality it was at worst clumsy, certainly not malicious.

I suppose the twat has to do whatever he thinks is most likely to drive his side on for the title, but Wenger's comment showed again what a plumb he is.

[Green_one]

Do not know if anyone caught Robbie Savage later that evening?

He gave interesting feedback. Generally he thought it was an accident, poor tackle. He did say though

1. EVERY footballer has a bad tackle in them. Heat of the moment etc.
2. He had a similar injury and basically it never went away. Gave him pain and limited function. Hope that is not the case but I think you do not always just fully recover from this type of injury, especially in your head.

[--------]

Do not know if anyone caught Robbie Savage later that evening?

He gave interesting feedback. Generally he thought it was an accident, poor tackle. He did say though

1. EVERY footballer has a bad tackle in them. Heat of the moment etc.
2. He had a similar injury and basically it never went away. Gave him pain and limited function. Hope that is not the case but I think you do not always just fully recover from this type of injury, especially in your head.


That sounds a balanced and honest assessment to me.

Robbie Savage is a guy who's coming over better and better as he gets older. No bull**** about him, at least.

[robinp]

I have seen it a few time now and cannot see what the fuss is about, it actually looks quite innocuous, even during the slow motion replays. I wouldn't have thought it would have done the damage it done.

There is no way Shawcross went to hurt Ramsay, there are worse tackles every week where players go to hurt the opposition and there is no mention of it after the game. I feel sorry for Shawcross, Wenger has made him out as if he went out to crock Ramsay which is simply not the case imo.

[--------]

Do not know if anyone caught Robbie Savage later that evening?

He gave interesting feedback. Generally he thought it was an accident, poor tackle. He did say though

1. EVERY footballer has a bad tackle in them. Heat of the moment etc.

2. He had a similar injury and basically it never went away. Gave him pain and limited function. Hope that is not the case but I think you do not always just fully recover from this type of injury, especially in your head.

Heat of the moment seems to me to be just about it.

It WAS a bad tackle in that he was late in the challenge and had left himself no way of pulling out of it. There was illegal contact and for that reason the card was justified. But to say that Shawcross deliberately went in to cripple Ramsay is simply not true.


I have seen it a few time now and cannot see what the fuss is about, it actually looks quite innocuous, even during the slow motion replays. I wouldn't have thought it would have done the damage it done.

There is no way Shawcross went to hurt Ramsay, there are worse tackles every week where players go to hurt the opposition and there is no mention of it after the game. I feel sorry for Shawcross, Wenger has made him out as if he went out to crock Ramsay which is simply not the case imo.

I would entirely agree.

Shawcross got the tackle wrong, and was dismissed accordingly. But it all happened very quickly and I can see no sign of Shawcross setting himself to 'get' Ramsay as Wenger seemed to be suggesting.

[Ell_Chrisso]

Read through-out the thread to some interesting views.

Im pretty sure i was probably the only one here to actually witness this live, being literally 20 yards away from the incident in the stand across from the camera.

What i will say is this.. I am an Arsenal fan. And i have been for a longgggg time. (Sitting in the Stoke end was fine to the start, till this tackle.)

The reaction to it from some of the Supporters in the stand, was an Absolute *****in JOKE!

I mean, first of all singing Shawcross name, as if he was some sort of cult hero for injuring, and potentialy ending a young promising star like Ramsey's career heaved me off. Im all for supporting your club and players, and having banter. But there's a time and place. Not when a young 19 year old, who is not a dirty physical player, is lie-ing on the ground with a foot dangling there like a piece of string.

Im not suprised with the reaction from Sol Campbell, Wenger & Fabregas esp, as this injury thing with Arsenal is starting to really get on my nerves also. Every season there seems to be a top Arsenal player injured for upto 6-7 months. What's to say Van Persie doesn't get his serious injury this year (all be it on international duty) Arsenal aint sitting 6 points clear at the top of the table right now??

The tackle, was NOT malicious. But it was clumsy. If he gets the ball, fine. But he did not.

If your a referee, and you see a player get to the ball, and the other just miss out, and the result is of the player lieing on the floor with a broken leg, your immeadiatly going to send the opponent off. I can't see why anyone would think otherwise.

Iv seen worse, get off with far less. But on this occasion, the tackle was hard, clumsy, and resulted in a horrific injury. Red card all day.

Apart from that... Man it was good to go see a World Class side do there thing. Was soo close to giving my colours away when we got a last min pen to win :greengrin

[Wotherspiniesta]

Read through-out the thread to some interesting views.

Im pretty sure i was probably the only one here to actually witness this live, being literally 20 yards away from the incident in the stand across from the camera.

What i will say is this.. I am an Arsenal fan. And i have been for a longgggg time. (Sitting in the Stoke end was fine to the start, till this tackle.)

The reaction to it from some of the Supporters in the stand, was an Absolute *****in JOKE!

I mean, first of all singing Shawcross name, as if he was some sort of cult hero for injuring, and potentialy ending a young promising star like Ramsey's career heaved me off. Im all for supporting your club and players, and having banter. But there's a time and place. Not when a young 19 year old, who is not a dirty physical player, is lie-ing on the ground with a foot dangling there like a piece of string.

Im not suprised with the reaction from Sol Campbell, Wenger & Fabregas esp, as this injury thing with Arsenal is starting to really get on my nerves also. Every season there seems to be a top Arsenal player injured for upto 6-7 months. What's to say Van Persie doesn't get his serious injury this year (all be it on international duty) Arsenal aint sitting 6 points clear at the top of the table right now??

The tackle, was NOT malicious. But it was clumsy. If he gets the ball, fine. But he did not.

If your a referee, and you see a player get to the ball, and the other just miss out, and the result is of the player lieing on the floor with a broken leg, your immeadiatly going to send the opponent off. I can't see why anyone would think otherwise.

Iv seen worse, get off with far less. But on this occasion, the tackle was hard, clumsy, and resulted in a horrific injury. Red card all day.

Apart from that... Man it was good to go see a World Class side do there thing. Was soo close to giving my colours away when we got a last min pen to win :greengrin

I can understand that emotions were running high during the incident and immediately after the event. But Wenger especially should be man enough to come out an apologise to Shawcross. Some things in football are accidental, like the Ramsey injury, Wenger is going to have to accept how good his players are. I know that sounds strange, but when you have players like Fabregas, Eduardo and Ramsey, all players who have brilliantly quick feet, then unfortunately this sort of thing is going to happen because players like Shawcross and Taylor are simply not as quick as them.There was no intention to injure Ramsey. As for Arsenal and their " victims" tag that they like to think they have. Please :rolleyes:. Arsenal are no saints...remember Gallas' tackle on the Bolton player not so long ago? That's the kind of tackle that needs a lengthy ban, not Shawcross' clumsy mistimed tackle.

[lapsedhibee]

But to say that Shawcross deliberately went in to cripple Ramsay is simply not true.

Just as well that no-one anywhere has said or is saying that, then. :wink:


Then you hear Wenger saying what a disgrace you are when in reality it was at worst clumsy, certainly not malicious.

Got a link to where Wenger says that about Shawcross, please, because it wasn't mentioned in the two or three interviews with him that I saw shown on Saturday after the match? :dunno:

[hibsbollah]

I think it possible that Shawcross may have decided to make an over-robust tackle, and may have regretted the consequence. So not primarily focused on the ball, yet not determined to cause injury either.


:agree: Shawcross has a bit of history (Adebayor, Jeffers, almost broke a Blackburn players leg earlier this season), which belies this image that Pulis and others put out about him being such a 'nice lad'. Totally irrelevant, he could donate all his wages to famine relief and still make reckless tackles.

[Hibee-Bongo]

:agree: Shawcross has a bit of history (Adebayor, Jeffers, almost broke a Blackburn players leg earlier this season), which belies this image that Pulis and others put out about him being such a 'nice lad'. Totally irrelevant, he could donate all his wages to famine relief and still make reckless tackles.

:agree: If that challenge had been on Rooney or Gerrard there's no chance all this stuff about how much of a 'nice guy' Shawcross is. There's no need to go into challenges with that much force for a 50-50 at the half way line, maybe if he was trying to stop a certain goal. Fair enough he's probably been psyched up by his manager trying to 'rough up' Arsenal, but all 'rough up' means is to put in hard challenges. He's intentionally went into the challenge with the amount of force that is capable of ruining careers and should have to deal with it.

[AugustaHibs]

YouTube - Aaron Ramsey Injury - Horrific Footage (SoccerInjuriesMedia) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0R1WbmjSVI)

Very Horrific Every time Looking at it.

[Judas Iscariot]

YouTube - Aaron Ramsey Injury - Horrific Footage (SoccerInjuriesMedia) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0R1WbmjSVI)

Very Horrific Every time Looking at it.

Why post it again then!?