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KerPlunk
10-02-2010, 07:48 AM
Looks like the Revenue's patience has run out. Might be a good thing in the long run. :agree:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2010/feb/10/portsmouth-cardiff-hmrc-winding-up

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2010, 09:35 AM
Looks like the Revenue's patience has run out. Might be a good thing in the long run. :agree:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2010/feb/10/portsmouth-cardiff-hmrc-winding-up

Good thing for whom? The small businesses which might fold through not being paid? The taxpayer (ie you and I)? Wouldn't have said so.

The clubs and their supporters? Perhaps.

Sylar
10-02-2010, 09:39 AM
It's about time something triggered the house of cards collapsing down South. They've tried to build an empire through the EPL based on nothing but money and continue to live outwith their realistic business means on an annual basis. Perhaps the awareness that companies are starting to lose patience with their own will kick a lot of them in the arse and realise that they drastically need to do something. When the debt of a football club exceeds that of the entire African GDP, something needs to be done.

I just wish it was someone bigger, ala Manchester United, Liverpool...

Leithenhibby
10-02-2010, 09:48 AM
It's about time something triggered the house of cards collapsing down South. They've tried to build an empire through the EPL based on nothing but money and continue to live outwith their realistic business means on an annual basis. Perhaps the awareness that companies are starting to lose patience with their own will kick a lot of them in the arse and realise that they drastically need to do something. When the debt of a football club exceeds that of the entire African GDP, something needs to be done.

I just wish it was someone bigger, ala Manchester United, Liverpool...



I would suspect in time, it will be the big boys that get call up :wink: as this mess can't continue in it's present form.

There will be a lot more to hit the fan with-in the year...

Kaiser1962
10-02-2010, 10:24 AM
Good thing for whom? The small businesses which might fold through not being paid? The taxpayer (ie you and I)? Wouldn't have said so.

The clubs and their supporters? Perhaps.

Agreed. Why are these clubs allowed to put small businesses in trouble by their extravagance and STILL be allowed to continue. Any club that goes into administration should be relegated to the bottom of their league structure. This system of a ten point deduction is nonsense and punishes all the other clubs who are run in a prudent and responsible fashion.:grr:

Cocaine&Caviar
10-02-2010, 10:38 AM
Pompey i can see going, through lack of playing talent, stadium and a small fan base. However, Cardiff have a great playing squad, fantastic stadium, large fan base and the potential to be an EPL club...

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2010, 10:39 AM
Pompey i can see going, through lack of playing talent, stadium and a small fan base. However, Cardiff have a great playing squad, fantastic stadium, large fan base and the potential to be an EPL club...

... you left out crap financial management.

Joe Baker II
10-02-2010, 10:39 AM
It's about time something triggered the house of cards collapsing down South. They've tried to build an empire through the EPL based on nothing but money and continue to live outwith their realistic business means on an annual basis. Perhaps the awareness that companies are starting to lose patience with their own will kick a lot of them in the arse and realise that they drastically need to do something. When the debt of a football club exceeds that of the entire African GDP, something needs to be done.

I just wish it was someone bigger, ala Manchester United, Liverpool...

Totally agree, though reduction in inequal distribution in TV revenues between different leagues in Europe is what would be really beneficial. But clubs getting wound up may hasten this process so it may be a good thing, despite pain in short term.

Cocaine&Caviar
10-02-2010, 10:41 AM
... you left out crap financial management.

But meant i could see an owner coming in for them, whereas Portsmouth...

Beefster
10-02-2010, 10:53 AM
It's about time something triggered the house of cards collapsing down South. They've tried to build an empire through the EPL based on nothing but money and continue to live outwith their realistic business means on an annual basis. Perhaps the awareness that companies are starting to lose patience with their own will kick a lot of them in the arse and realise that they drastically need to do something. When the debt of a football club exceeds that of the entire African GDP, something needs to be done.

I just wish it was someone bigger, ala Manchester United, Liverpool...

Some mistake surely? The total African GDP will run into trillions of dollars (I'd assume).

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2010, 11:02 AM
But meant i could see an owner coming in for them, whereas Portsmouth...

I was being a bit facetious. I meant that it's a pre-requisite for the EPL teams to have crap financial management.

It's a tough one for a new owner, though. Say Cardiff go belly up, suffer the points deduction or relegation. New owner starts off with a clean slate, but has to work hard to get back the goodwill of suppliers etc that the previous owners p*ssed off.

Then... even more difficult.... does he spend big just to get into/stay in the EPL? Probably has to, "because everybody else does it".

KerPlunk
10-02-2010, 11:57 AM
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Portsmouth-FC-Head-To-The-High-Court-Seeking-Adjournment-In-Appeal-Against-Winding-Up-Petition/Article/201002215545875?f=rss

:bitchy:

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2010, 11:59 AM
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Portsmouth-FC-Head-To-The-High-Court-Seeking-Adjournment-In-Appeal-Against-Winding-Up-Petition/Article/201002215545875?f=rss

:bitchy:

Are you shaking your head at the fact they are going to appeal, or against the whole mess?

KerPlunk
10-02-2010, 12:06 PM
Are you shaking your head at the fact they are going to appeal, or against the whole mess?

Do you ask questions of other posters cos you think it's funny or what.....?

The shaky head smiley is cos I'd hate to see ANY football team go down the pan due to greed / mismanagement on the part of the owners.

Your question re. my OP - "Good thing for whom".........it would be a good thing for Pompey or Cardiff if they were lucky enough to have a Markus Leibherr- type white knight come along (see Southampton).

Any other questions, Torquemada ? :greengrin

Caversham Green
10-02-2010, 12:18 PM
Just to clarify, what Portsmouth are looking at is not administration - where they continue to trade and play under a points penalty - but winding up. That means they would stop trading immediately, their staff would be dismissed and all of their assets sold with the proceeds being divided up between their creditors.

It looks like HMRC have started playing hardball and are no longer agreeing to administration in extreme cases, so it looks very grim for Pompey. I can't really blame them TBH, they've lost a huge amount of taxpayer's money through Admin. agreements, partly because FA rules ensure that 'football' get priority treatment - hence the retention of £7m from Pompey to pay other clubs.

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2010, 12:25 PM
Do you ask questions of other posters cos you think it's funny or what.....?

The shaky head smiley is cos I'd hate to see ANY football team go down the pan due to greed / mismanagement on the part of the owners.

Your question re. my OP - "Good thing for whom".........it would be a good thing for Pompey or Cardiff if they were lucky enough to have a Markus Leibherr- type white knight come along (see Southampton).

Any other questions, Torquemada ? :greengrin

I asked out of interest. That is all. Clarifying your post helps me to frame my own response.

Now that I have clarified it, I can agree with your shaking of the head.

(signed) Torto Maddy

Gatecrasher
10-02-2010, 12:28 PM
Just to clarify, what Portsmouth are looking at is not administration - where they continue to trade and play under a points penalty - but winding up. That means they would stop trading immediately, their staff would be dismissed and all of their assets sold with the proceeds being divided up between their creditors.

It looks like HMRC have started playing hardball and are no longer agreeing to administration in extreme cases, so it looks very grim for Pompey. I can't really blame them TBH, they've lost a huge amount of taxpayer's money through Admin. agreements, partly because FA rules ensure that 'football' get priority treatment - hence the retention of £7m from Pompey to pay other clubs.


What would happen if they can't fufill their fixtures?

BoltonHibee
10-02-2010, 12:32 PM
What would happen if they can't fufill their fixtures?

All there fixtures would be null and void. Anyone who had taken points from them would have the points deducted.

Gatecrasher
10-02-2010, 12:37 PM
All there fixtures would be null and void. Anyone who had taken points from them would have the points deducted.

Same as scotland then when Gretna were doomed, Liverpool would benefit from that as Pompey beat them at fratton park

GB6
10-02-2010, 12:37 PM
All there fixtures would be null and void. Anyone who had taken points from them would have the points deducted.

helping liverpool jump to 3rd above arsenal :devil:

Caversham Green
10-02-2010, 12:37 PM
All there fixtures would be null and void. Anyone who had taken points from them would have the points deducted.

I think that's right, although it seems a bit unfair to me. It strikes me as more logical to award the teams they still have to play three points when the opposition fail to turn up.

SidBurns
10-02-2010, 12:39 PM
Do you ask questions of other posters cos you think it's funny or what.....?

The shaky head smiley is cos I'd hate to see ANY football team go down the pan due to greed / mismanagement on the part of the owners.

Your question re. my OP - "Good thing for whom".........it would be a good thing for Pompey or Cardiff if they were lucky enough to have a Markus Leibherr- type white knight come along (see Southampton).

Any other questions, Torquemada ? :greengrin

It's a nightmare but that's what you get for trying to buy success...

GB6
10-02-2010, 12:52 PM
just been told they are insolvent

KerPlunk
10-02-2010, 01:11 PM
HMRC now saying they are owed £11.5m by Pompey. Dearie me.

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2010, 01:20 PM
just been told they are insolvent

No sh*t, Sherlock? :greengrin

Caversham Green
10-02-2010, 01:31 PM
Pompey have been given seven days to produce a statement of affairs. It sounds like that will have to show how they propose to pay the full amount to HMRC and then HMRC will either accept or reject it. Given that they haven't been able to raise the money previously I can't see that they will be able to now, and this feels like it's only delaying the inevitable IMO.

Cardiff and Southend were both given 28 day adjournments, which gives them time to negotiate further with HMRC - Pompey are well beyond that stage now.

Sylar
10-02-2010, 02:05 PM
Some mistake surely? The total African GDP will run into trillions of dollars (I'd assume).

Yeah, you're right enough. I guess I've misread something somewhere along the line. I did think it a tad unrealistic when I was writing the initial post!

Still, > the African GDP or not, £700odd million is ludicrous!

Haymaker
10-02-2010, 04:51 PM
Yeah, you're right enough. I guess I've misread something somewhere along the line. I did think it a tad unrealistic when I was writing the initial post!

Still, > the African GDP or not, £700odd million is ludicrous!


Ronaldos transfer to Madrid was more than Zambia spend on everything per year. THAT is wrong.

Clubs like West Ham, Liverpool, ManUnited etc who are in massive debt are hoping for the overseas rights to the EPL to go for the highest price to help services their debts... as it stands it looks like going for £1.8billion per season which, coupled with BskyB's billion per season would give each club £14million per game approx. from TV alone when broadcast.

THAT is insane.

Phil D. Rolls
10-02-2010, 06:38 PM
I would suspect in time, it will be the big boys that get call up :wink: as this mess can't continue in it's present form.

There will be a lot more to hit the fan with-in the year...

I think there is a big team in Edinburgh that must be getting a bit squeaky bummed.

scott7_0(Prague)
25-02-2010, 04:43 PM
Admin!!


Portsmouth Buyers Miss Cash Proof Deadline
Hazel Tyldesley, Sky News Online
A "conscious decision" has been made to put Portsmouth FC into administration tomorrow morning after four potential buyers failed to prove they had the funds to buy the club.
Portsmouth FC players have been repeatedly paid late over the past few months
The undisclosed buyers missed a 3:30pm deadline set by Andrew Andronikou of UHY Hacker Young, who will serve as the administrator.
Mr Andronikouis preparing to issue a detailed statement outlining how the club will be restructured to prevent it going into liquidation and make it attractive for a potential buyer.
Pompey will become the first English Premier League club to go into financial administration and will lose nine points as a result of the move.
"I feel very sad, very angry," said Portsmouth manager Avram Grant.

KerPlunk
25-02-2010, 06:32 PM
Ooh, the first brick in the EPL wall comes loose. Who'll be next ??? :wink:

From Grauniad :-

Chainrai's spokesman Phil Hall told the club's website: "There is now only a short window of opportunity for buyers to come in with a credible offer. We have to be realistic and having the club wound up is not an option as far as we are concerned.

"They are the victims of circumstance,(WTF :fibber:) having injected funds in the form of a short-term loan to the Al Faraj Group, who subsequently invested the money in the club.

"The partners have put £17million of their own money into the club and have a responsibility to ensure Portsmouth Football Club survives.

"Administration would mean the club re-emerging as a healthy financial entity. The club would then become an attractive proposition for a potential buyer who could invest new funds in rebuilding the club's future.

"We would like to ask the fans, the staff and management of Portsmouth Football Club for their support and patience should this step be taken, as they believe it is the only route left open to them."

Hall added: "The serving of this notice means the winding-up order is automatically suspended. It means the club is safe, can fulfil its fixtures and as far as is possible it is business as usual. (:grr:)

"Mr Chainrai hopes the supporters will get fully behind the team as usual for their Premier League match at Burnley on Saturday and the following weekend's FA Cup quarter-final at home to Birmingham."

So does HMRC not get paid then ? :confused: Thought they were trying to get them wound up ?

Where's Caversham Green when you need him ????? :greengrin

NOLA
25-02-2010, 06:43 PM
I can see pompey going down quicker than a virgin on prom night!

Irish_Steve
25-02-2010, 09:58 PM
Surely it`s a shoe-in for one of the Gruesome Twosome to take Pompey`s place

Caversham Green
25-02-2010, 11:18 PM
Ooh, the first brick in the EPL wall comes loose. Who'll be next ??? :wink:

From Grauniad :-

Chainrai's spokesman Phil Hall told the club's website: "There is now only a short window of opportunity for buyers to come in with a credible offer. We have to be realistic and having the club wound up is not an option as far as we are concerned.

"They are the victims of circumstance,(WTF :fibber:) having injected funds in the form of a short-term loan to the Al Faraj Group, who subsequently invested the money in the club.

"The partners have put £17million of their own money into the club and have a responsibility to ensure Portsmouth Football Club survives.

"Administration would mean the club re-emerging as a healthy financial entity. The club would then become an attractive proposition for a potential buyer who could invest new funds in rebuilding the club's future.

"We would like to ask the fans, the staff and management of Portsmouth Football Club for their support and patience should this step be taken, as they believe it is the only route left open to them."

Hall added: "The serving of this notice means the winding-up order is automatically suspended. It means the club is safe, can fulfil its fixtures and as far as is possible it is business as usual. (:grr:)

"Mr Chainrai hopes the supporters will get fully behind the team as usual for their Premier League match at Burnley on Saturday and the following weekend's FA Cup quarter-final at home to Birmingham."

So does HMRC not get paid then ? :confused: Thought they were trying to get them wound up ?

Where's Caversham Green when you need him ????? :greengrin

:eyes: Here I am.

It seems this is only going to happen because Chanrai has said he will pay the administrator's out of his own pocket - something he could/should have done a couple of weeks ago, but was probably trying to offload the club to another buyer. Prior to this, an administration process wouldn't have raised enough cash to pay the administrator, so nobody would take the job.

Apparently the league rules are that "football" debts get priority treatment and other debts (including the Revenue) are subject to negotiation, so if HMRC agree to the administrator's offer they'll only get a percentage of what they are owed. HMRC have objected to this in the past, but I believe the Court ruled against their appeal (personally, I have no idea how it can be legal). One problem is that Portsmouth can't come out of administration without the agreement of the creditors and if they can't come to an agreement they will suffer further points deductions - I think that's why Leeds and Luton suffered so badly. If they can't get out of administration, they won't be able to find a new buyer and the only option will be to wind them up, but that's a worst case scenario.

That is by no means a text book summary and I may have some of the details wrong, but it's how I believe things will work.

Cocaine&Caviar
26-02-2010, 10:27 AM
Isnt it the case when under administration, all the loan signings return to their parent clubs?

If so, theyre going to be losing 6 players!

O'Hara, Piquonne, Borre, Dindane, Quincy, and Yebda.

JoeT
26-02-2010, 10:32 AM
Surely it`s a shoe-in for one of the Gruesome Twosome to take Pompey`s place

How about they just merge and take the place as Glasgow United

HenryMonk
26-02-2010, 10:38 AM
and at same time arsenal announce 6months pre tax profit of £35.2 mill.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/half-year-financial-results-announced

bye bye pompey, thats what you get for out living your means

--------
26-02-2010, 11:04 AM
How about they just merge and take the place as Glasgow United


"Hello, hello, we are the Fenian bhoys...."? :devil:

Cocaine&Caviar
26-02-2010, 11:09 AM
and at same time arsenal announce 6months pre tax profit of £35.2 mill.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/half-year-financial-results-announced (http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/half-year-financial-results-announced)

bye bye pompey, thats what you get for out living your means

But Portsmouth have more cups in the last 4 years...

HenryMonk
26-02-2010, 11:11 AM
But Portsmouth have more cups in the last 4 years...

correct but they practicaly cheated to get it, not paying other clubs, not payin bills etc. is that right?

and for the record i think arsenal will win the EPL this season:wink:

Hakim Sar
26-02-2010, 11:17 AM
Portsmouth have cheated to win FA cup

Disgusting that they have done this.

Luna_Asylum
26-02-2010, 12:10 PM
Just to clarify, what Portsmouth are looking at is not administration - where they continue to trade and play under a points penalty - but winding up. That means they would stop trading immediately, their staff would be dismissed and all of their assets sold with the proceeds being divided up between their creditors.

It looks like HMRC have started playing hardball and are no longer agreeing to administration in extreme cases, so it looks very grim for Pompey. I can't really blame them TBH, they've lost a huge amount of taxpayer's money through Admin. agreements, partly because FA rules ensure that 'football' get priority treatment - hence the retention of £7m from Pompey to pay other clubs.

an administration expert speaks

Danderhall Hibs
26-02-2010, 12:12 PM
an administration expert speaks

:tee hee:

IWasThere2016
26-02-2010, 12:51 PM
Confirmed on SKY - Pompey in Admin!

An Leargaidh
26-02-2010, 12:55 PM
Confirmed on SKY - Pompey in Admin!

The goalie from Pompey was in an interview on the ITN website saying he is glad it has all come out now and he is looking forward to the next season and to staying in the Cup.

That video article has now been edited dramitically from an hour ago. Will they keep going under a new name? :confused:

ITN Pompey video (http://itn.co.uk/8e0c8ead85fc6e50af4d8c1aac4762b3.html)

Jack
26-02-2010, 01:00 PM
Portsmouth FC in crisis - Q&A (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mattslater/2010/02/portsmouth_fc_in_crisis_qa.html)

Here's a wee read that explains it all (ineresting to sometimes substitute Hearts where its says Portsmouth), read it all it gets even better. :agree:



Q: OK then, how did that happen?

A: How long have you got? The short answer is a shocking disregard for basic housekeeping: do not spend more money than you actually have. Portsmouth have been ignoring this one for at least four years.

The slightly longer answer is appalling mismanagement, combined with an arrogant belief that the usual rules do not apply, naked greed and a failure on the part of the authorities to regulate the industry properly.

Some will want to add corruption to this cocktail (and I may, one day, be able to say something about this), but if we are going to go down that road we should also remember our own guilt as co-conspirators: we have all demanded more "ambition" from our clubs but have rarely cared about the cost.

Is he sure he's talking about Portsmouth :cool2:

jgl07
26-02-2010, 01:06 PM
It's about time something triggered the house of cards collapsing down South. They've tried to build an empire through the EPL based on nothing but money and continue to live outwith their realistic business means on an annual basis. Perhaps the awareness that companies are starting to lose patience with their own will kick a lot of them in the arse and realise that they drastically need to do something. When the debt of a football club exceeds that of the entire African GDP, something needs to be done.

I just wish it was someone bigger, ala Manchester United, Liverpool...
If either failed to qualify for the group stages of the Champions' League for a couple of years in a row, this could happen.

Danderhall Hibs
26-02-2010, 01:08 PM
That video article has now been edited dramitically from an hour ago. Will they keep going under a new name? :confused:

ITN Pompey video (http://itn.co.uk/8e0c8ead85fc6e50af4d8c1aac4762b3.html)

They're not going out the box - administration's a thing you go into to pay back less money than you actually owe. the administrator will try and agree to pay the creditors 10p for every £1 that Pompey owe. if everyone's happy with that they'll survive - like Motherwell, Dundee, Leeds etc have all done.

If they can't agree it they'll go bust - like Gretna did.

jgl07
26-02-2010, 01:20 PM
Confirmed on SKY - Pompey in Admin!
Now can we get this right:

Portsmouth have debts of £60 million according to the BBC News item.

They have a turnover of £71 million according to the Football Finances website.

That gives a debt to turnover ratio of 0.85.

HoMFC on the other hand have (or rather had) debts of £30.5 million and a turnover of £9.2 million according to the Football Finances.

That gives a debt to turnover ratio of 3.32!

Thing are even worse as Hearts are losing £11 million a year (excluding transfer fees etc). The figures are 19 months out of date so the debt could
be nudging £48 million as of now.

Something does not add up here.

Danderhall Hibs
26-02-2010, 01:36 PM
Now can we get this right:

Portsmouth have debts of £60 million according to the BBC News item.

They have a turnover of £71 million according to the Football Finances website.

That gives a debt to turnover ratio of 0.85.

HoMFC on the other hand have (or rather had) debts of £30.5 million and a turnover of £9.2 million according to the Football Finances.

That gives a debt to turnover ratio of 3.32!

Thing are even worse as Hearts are losing £11 million a year (excluding transfer fees etc). The figures are 19 months out of date so the debt could
be nudging £48 million as of now.

Something does not add up here.


The Pompey thing's all came about because they were due the HMRC about £20m or so and couldn't pay it - the HMRC pushed this and it's ended up with them going into administration.

Hearts are (in the main) due other parts of the Romanov "business empire" so as long as Vlad doesn't push for his dough they'll be ok.

That's my understanding.

johnrebus
26-02-2010, 01:39 PM
I think there is a big team in Edinburgh that must be getting a bit squeaky bummed.


:tsk tsk:


Nonsense.

Teams with war memorials do not get squeaky bums.

Caversham Green
26-02-2010, 03:33 PM
an administration expert speaks

See also post #34 which explains what has happened since the post you quoted.

Edit: And post #23 in this thread http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=175424 - note the words
Originally posted by an administration expert and all-round good egg
That may change in the coming fortnight
It has changed - HTH

jgl07
26-02-2010, 03:42 PM
Portsmouth have cheated to win FA cup

Disgusting that they have done this.
You would never get a club in Scotland doing that.

Hang on.......

ballengeich
26-02-2010, 03:48 PM
See also post #34 which explains what has happened since the post you quoted.

Edit: And post #23 in this thread http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=175424 (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=175424) - note the words
It has changed - HTH

I suspect that HMRC are mighty unhappy about her majesty's inability to get all the dosh owed to her by football clubs. Do you think they may make another attempt to establish a principle that football debts cannot be given priority? Alternatively could they, as creditors, block any agreement for partial repayment?

In future, can you see them intervening at an earlier stage of clubs' building debt up?

SidBurns
26-02-2010, 03:55 PM
IF (in theory), H****s were to go into administration and their debt was £50m then they could push for this 10p in a £1 and technically only be in debt by £5m? Would mean however your Goncalves, Wallace, Stewart, Nade etc etc would HAVE to be sold to pay the remaining debt. Either way I personally think they'd go down and then hopefully out of business!

Sometimes I think it'd be a shame for them but then the other 99.9999% of the time I think 'get that up ye!' :thumbsup:

Luna_Asylum
26-02-2010, 04:19 PM
[QUOTE=Caversham Green;2369247]See also post #34 which explains what has happened since the post you quoted.


Edit: And post #23 in this thread http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=175424 - note the words

"That may change in the coming fortnight, but the Revenue seem to be standing firm on it at the moment."


What those words. What has changed has had nothing to do with the revenue
IIUC.

Caversham Green
26-02-2010, 04:20 PM
I suspect that HMRC are mighty unhappy about her majesty's inability to get all the dosh owed to her by football clubs. Do you think they may make another attempt to establish a principle that football debts cannot be given priority? Alternatively could they, as creditors, block any agreement for partial repayment?

In future, can you see them intervening at an earlier stage of clubs' building debt up?

HMRC are absolutely fuming about the football debt priority, and rightly so - ultimately it's our money the football establishment are dishing out to each other. I think the spate of winding up petitions we're seeing is a direct result of the ruling and a club is going to be killed off sooner rather than later. They could indeed refuse to agree to the proposed partial payment - that would mean the club would not be able to emerge from administration and would eventually have to be wound up.

It's a difficult position though, forcing a winding up would mean they got zip rather than a few quid through a CVA. Their reason for forcing closure would have to be to prevent a basket case company from incurring more debt to them and other creditors.

One other point, the money owed to HMRC never actually belonged to Portsmouth - it was taxes they had collected for HMRC. So in effect the money they owe has been stolen from the taxpayer.

I don't often say this, but I have every sympathy with the taxman in this case.

Caversham Green
26-02-2010, 04:23 PM
[QUOTE=Caversham Green;2369247]See also post #34 which explains what has happened since the post you quoted.


Edit: And post #23 in this thread http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=175424 (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=175424) - note the words

"That may change in the coming fortnight, but the Revenue seem to be standing firm on it at the moment."


What those words. What has changed has had nothing to do with the revenue
IIUC.

No, but the Revenue are being forced to accept administration because funds have been found to pay the administrators fees. You need to read the whole post to understand the point I was making.

CropleyWasGod
26-02-2010, 04:23 PM
One other point, the money owed to HMRC never actually belonged to Portsmouth - it was taxes they had collected for HMRC. So in effect the money they owe has been stolen from the taxpayer.

I don't often say this, but I have every sympathy with the taxman in this case.

Always my stance in cases of V.A.T. and P.A.Y.E., especially the latter. :agree:

Luna_Asylum
26-02-2010, 04:26 PM
[QUOTE=Luna_Asylum;2369300]

No, but the Revenue are being forced to accept administration because funds have been found to pay the administrators fees. You need to read the whole post to understand the point I was making.

no. you implied HMRC changed their stance which they did not

funding the admistrators fees was never an issue - to argue that point is bull**it

Caversham Green
26-02-2010, 04:30 PM
[QUOTE=Caversham Green;2369308]

no. you implied HMRC changed their stance which they did not

funding the admistrators fees was never an issue - to argue that point is bull**it

I implied no such thing - you have failed to understand the point I was making. Funding the administrator's fees is precisely the issue - it's the only reason that administration is taking place.

Luna_Asylum
26-02-2010, 04:35 PM
[QUOTE=Luna_Asylum;2369312]

I implied no such thing - you have failed to understand the point I was making. Funding the administrator's fees is precisely the issue - it's the only reason that administration is taking place.

you are just making a fool of yourself now

Pretty Boy
26-02-2010, 04:35 PM
Portsmouth have cheated to win FA cup

Disgusting that they have done this.

My feelings exactly. I don't give a hoot what happens to Pompey and i don't give a **** about their fans either. Would anyone feel for the fans if it was Rangers or Hertz? Would they ****.

I feel sorry for teams like Everton, Aston Villa, Stoke etc etc who are well run within their means with good managers. They may never win a trophy anytime soon yet they consistently put good teams on the park without breaking the bank. Pompey throw money about left, right and centre to win the FA Cup and now look at the state they are in.

And the fans can moan all they like about mismanagement at the top and so on. At the end of the day none of them were giving a to55 about mismanagement when they were doing well, suddenly it all goes t1ts up and they want to blame everyone but themselves. Sorry Pompey fans you can stick your great atmosphhere and passion up your erse, you said nothing until it was too late. No better than the yams, Leeds, Bournemouth, Southhampton or any other team which has grossly over extended it's finances for little gain.

Caversham Green
26-02-2010, 04:38 PM
[QUOTE=Caversham Green;2369317]

you are just making a fool of yourself now

One of us certainly is.

ballengeich
26-02-2010, 05:12 PM
One other point, the money owed to HMRC never actually belonged to Portsmouth - it was taxes they had collected for HMRC. So in effect the money they owe has been stolen from the taxpayer.

I don't often say this, but I have every sympathy with the taxman in this case.

Is criminal action against directors for this a possibility - along with action on continuing to trade knowing the company to be insolvent? I suspect HMRC will want to apply a stick to someone as a carrot to bring about better behaviour from others in future.

CropleyWasGod
26-02-2010, 05:16 PM
Is criminal action against directors for this a possibility - along with action on continuing to trade knowing the company to be insolvent? I suspect HMRC will want to apply a stick to someone as a carrot to bring about better behaviour from others in future.

It is an option for them, although the costs involved might well put them off.

I was speaking to a tax inspector on this very point last week. The Revenue are very hot just now on so called "phoenix" situations, in which tax debt is avoided, and a new company formed. They have specialist teams who can assist a liquidator (if it comes to that) in recovering tax monies in any way they can.

Broadly, the law says that debts which are incurred after the point at which a company could reasonably be held to be insolvent, can be held to be the personal liability of the directors.

Caversham Green
26-02-2010, 05:20 PM
Is criminal action against directors for this a possibility - along with action on continuing to trade knowing the company to be insolvent? I suspect HMRC will want to apply a stick to someone as a carrot to bring about better behaviour from others in future.

Storrie and Redknapp are already facing criminal charges, which I don't think are entirely unconnected with HMRC's actions against Portsmouth and more may follow. In the past directors have got away with far too much IMO. The laws are there, but they don't seem to be enforced very strongly - possibly because there are various loophole type defences.

I used the word "stolen" in an emotive rather than legal sense, but something smells very bad at Fratton Park.

Caversham Green
26-02-2010, 05:24 PM
It is an option for them, although the costs involved might well put them off.

I was speaking to a tax inspector on this very point last week. The Revenue are very hot just now on so called "phoenix" situations, in which tax debt is avoided, and a new company formed. They have specialist teams who can assist a liquidator (if it comes to that) in recovering tax monies in any way they can.

Broadly, the law says that debts which are incurred after the point at which a company could reasonably be held to be insolvent, can be held to be the personal liability of the directors.

That's a case in point for my previous reply - I've seen several examples where this could have been applied, but have never seen a case actually being pursued - have you CWG?

CropleyWasGod
26-02-2010, 05:29 PM
That's a case in point for my previous reply - I've seen several examples where this could have been applied, but have never seen a case actually being pursued - have you CWG?

Can't say I have. Don't actually work in insolvency, but have cause (often, these days, sadly) to tell and remind folk of their responsibilities. Honestly can't think of any case in 20-odd years of anybody I know being held accountable in that way.

IIRC, the legal penalties are so minor, that the temptation to "wrongfully trade" has to be quite strong.

Kaiser1962
26-02-2010, 05:46 PM
IF (in theory), H****s were to go into administration and their debt was £50m then they could push for this 10p in a £1 and technically only be in debt by £5m? Would mean however your Goncalves, Wallace, Stewart, Nade etc etc would HAVE to be sold to pay the remaining debt. Either way I personally think they'd go down and then hopefully out of business!

Sometimes I think it'd be a shame for them but then the other 99.9999% of the time I think 'get that up ye!' :thumbsup:

I am not sure that Hearts can take the admin route Sid as both the creditor and debtor are one and the same (in practice at least). Things are fine as long as Vlad keeps an iron grip on it all but with UKIO posting losses of 21m (ish) maybe Vlad is not quite as bombproof as he once was.

Phil D. Rolls
26-02-2010, 07:11 PM
Portsmouth FC in crisis - Q&A (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mattslater/2010/02/portsmouth_fc_in_crisis_qa.html)

Here's a wee read that explains it all (ineresting to sometimes substitute Hearts where its says Portsmouth), read it all it gets even better. :agree:



Is he sure he's talking about Portsmouth :cool2:

Can't think of any. :dunno:


I am not sure that Hearts can take the admin route Sid as both the creditor and debtor are one and the same (in practice at least). Things are fine as long as Vlad keeps an iron grip on it all but with UKIO posting losses of 21m (ish) maybe Vlad is not quite as bombproof as he once was.

Move along, nothing to see here.

noseyhibby
26-02-2010, 09:58 PM
It's an absolute joke that Portsmouth might still play in the championship next season AND have a huge "parachute payments" advantage over other, proper run clubs. £32 million over two years! They should be expelled from the football league end of. If the Pompey fans are as passionate about their club as they insist that they are, then they will ensure that Portsmouth will rise again from the ashes. :bitchy:

WindyMiller
26-02-2010, 10:28 PM
From the BBC
"But with Fratton Park having been sold to Chainrai, they have effectively just one asset remaining - the players."

Given that a few of the best players are loaned, that won't leave much to sell off to satisfy the creditors.

Gatecrasher
26-02-2010, 11:02 PM
It's an absolute joke that Portsmouth might still play in the championship next season AND have a huge "parachute payments" advantage over other, proper run clubs. £32 million over two years! They should be expelled from the football league end of. If the Pompey fans are as passionate about their club as they insist that they are, then they will ensure that Portsmouth will rise again from the ashes. :bitchy:


if they complete their fixtures to the end of the season there shouldnt be any reason for them not to receive these payments for completing the season, by EPL rules they will be punished with a 9 point deduction, i dont see why they cant get a chance to get their act together and im sure the administrators will do this.

greenlex
26-02-2010, 11:44 PM
It's an absolute joke that Portsmouth might still play in the championship next season AND have a huge "parachute payments" advantage over other, proper run clubs. £32 million over two years! They should be expelled from the football league end of. If the Pompey fans are as passionate about their club as they insist that they are, then they will ensure that Portsmouth will rise again from the ashes. :bitchy:
IF they are still around in ther same guise next season the Adminitstrator will have the parachute payment to help pay creditors. If they go bust they wont get the payment because they will be someone else and possibly down into the regional confrence leagues.

KerPlunk
01-03-2010, 11:13 PM
HMRC not happy about administration.

Go Taxman !! :thumbsup:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/mar/01/hmrc-portsmouth-high-court-administration