SeaWorld Trainer Killed by Whale During Show

[Sylar]

Orlando Park Closes after Trainer Death (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8535618.stm)

A killer whale has grabbed a trainer, dragged her underneath the water and drowned her in Orlando, during a live show. Apparently, the orca was violently shaking the experienced trainer and had her in its mouth whilst beneath the water. Second time this specific whale has been blamed for the death of a trainer, as well as being found with an intruder to the park on its back, having snuck in overnight in 1999.

No real surprise really - I'm supportive of the research work SeaWorld do into aquatic/mammalian behaviour, but the "tourist" outlet has always been a controversial one. Expecting naturally lethal animals to "play nice and do tricks" can only work for so long - these creatures are born with killer instinct, and it doesn't suddenly disappear when you pen them into a large pool. I'm sure they're well looked after etc, but these animals should not be exhibits.

Glad I wasn't there to witness it - off to Orlando next Saturday for 2 weeks and I won't be surprised if the park is still closed!

[Beefster]

I'd agree that stuff like this is always likely to happen but, without knowing too much about exactly how they are funded, I'd imagine that the 'tourist outlet' funds a large proportion of the research they do.

[Sylar]

Most of the funding for the marine research they do comes from external non-profit organisations and research grants provided by charities, government, businesses etc. I'm sure a portion of their park receipts will be reinvested into their research, but I'd imagine they'll have big overlays, with most of the profit going towards maintenance, salaries and development of further attractions etc.

I'd imagine their research will be primarily funded externally (as is the case for most science research areas).

[Beefster]

Most of the funding for the marine research they do comes from external non-profit organisations and research grants provided by charities, government, businesses etc. I'm sure a portion of their park receipts will be reinvested into their research, but I'd imagine they'll have big overlays, with most of the profit going towards maintenance, salaries and development of further attractions etc.

I'd imagine their research will be primarily funded externally (as is the case for most science research areas).

That'll teach me not to check...!

Sounds a bit like the SSPCA keeping bears in cages and teaching them to dance for the public's entertainment in that case. Although I did enjoy the killer whale show at Seaworld when I was there.

[Hibs Class]

That'll teach me not to check...!

Sounds a bit like the SSPCA keeping bears in cages and teaching them to dance for the public's entertainment in that case. Although I did enjoy the killer whale show at Seaworld when I was there.


That sounds brilliant - where can I see it?

[Phil D. Rolls]

'Mon the whales!

[Petrie's Tache]

"Killer Whale" eats something fleshy and tasty shocker, :eyes:

[ArabHibee]

TOAODS - where are you? :cool2:

[Toaods]

TOAODS - where are you? :cool2:

Magnificent Mammalian specimen 1 Magnificent Mammaries 0

[poolman]

Well well, probably got bored of balancing a beach ball on it's nose, a killer whale decided to "kill"

Whatever next :rolleyes:

[--------]

The proper name for them is 'orca' or 'blackfish'.

'Killer whale' probably derived from sailors or whalemen who saw them chasing down smaller marine mammals and large fish like cod and tuna.

In the wild they are no more threatening to humans than other dolphins - they're just big black-and-white dolphins, that's all - and a lot less dangerous to us than we are to them.

Keeping them in those Seaworld centres should be banned, IMO. They're highly intelligent creatures (probably a lot more intelligent than the morons who go 'OOOH' and 'AAAH' at the stupid tricks their handlers teach them) and their natural habitat is the open ocean, not a glorified goldfish bowl. And they live socially, in pods of male and female whales, and they all take responsibility for looking after their young.

The parallel with performing bears is a good one - confining intelligent social animals with a highly-sophisticated communications system in a zoo, and training them to perform for our amusement in return for their food, is cruelty. Especially since most orcas are kept singly or at best in pairs. This to them is unnatural.

And the fact that marine biologists collaborate in the process just makes it worse.

:grr:

[Leicester Fan]

If it isn't the dog chewing your slipper then there's a killer whale biting your trainer.

[Removed]

The proper name for them is 'orca' or 'blackfish'.

'Killer whale' probably derived from sailors or whalemen who saw them chasing down smaller marine mammals and large fish like cod and tuna.

In the wild they are no more threatening to humans than other dolphins - they're just big black-and-white dolphins, that's all - and a lot less dangerous to us than we are to them.

Keeping them in those Seaworld centres should be banned, IMO. They're highly intelligent creatures (probably a lot more intelligent than the morons who go 'OOOH' and 'AAAH' at the stupid tricks their handlers teach them) and their natural habitat is the open ocean, not a glorified goldfish bowl. And they live socially, in pods of male and female whales, and they all take responsibility for looking after their young.

The parallel with performing bears is a good one - confining intelligent social animals with a highly-sophisticated communications system in a zoo, and training them to perform for our amusement in return for their food, is cruelty. Especially since most orcas are kept singly or at best in pairs. This to them is unnatural.

And the fact that marine biologists collaborate in the process just makes it worse.

:grr:

:agree:

Totally agree.

I was really proud of my 8 year old who was adamant he didn't want to go to Seaworld when we were in Florida in 2008 as he said it was cruel

[Steve-O]

SeaWorld Orlando is good :agree:

[LeithWalkHibby]

I think they should hang the whale. Or at least allow the relatives of the deceased trainer ten minutes alone in a locked room with the murderous lump of blubber.

[Woody1985]

I think they should hang the whale. Or at least allow the relatives of the deceased trainer ten minutes alone in a locked room with the murderous lump of blubber.

:faf:

:top marks

That really did make me laugh out loud at 3am!

[H18sry]

I heard it was the whales 2nd attempt in 24 hours there was a bloke swimming in the pool with the orca but he had a t-shirt on reading "Hearts Champions League winners 2010" but even the whale wiznae swallowing that one. :faf::faf:

[Jay]

:agree:

Totally agree.

I was really proud of my 8 year old who was adamant he didn't want to go to Seaworld when we were in Florida in 2008 as he said it was cruel

We went once and I cringed all the way through it - it was just wrong in my opinion.

[IWasThere2016]

Orlando Park Closes after Trainer Death (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8535618.stm)

A killer whale has grabbed a trainer, dragged her underneath the water and drowned her in Orlando, during a live show. Apparently, the orca was violently shaking the experienced trainer and had her in its mouth whilst beneath the water. Second time this specific whale has been blamed for the death of a trainer, as well as being found with an intruder to the park on its back, having snuck in overnight in 1999.

No real surprise really - I'm supportive of the research work SeaWorld do into aquatic/mammalian behaviour, but the "tourist" outlet has always been a controversial one. Expecting naturally lethal animals to "play nice and do tricks" can only work for so long - these creatures are born with killer instinct, and it doesn't suddenly disappear when you pen them into a large pool. I'm sure they're well looked after etc, but these animals should not be exhibits.

Glad I wasn't there to witness it - off to Orlando next Saturday for 2 weeks and I won't be surprised if the park is still closed!

Shows start again soon .. according to SKY


I'd agree that stuff like this is always likely to happen but, without knowing too much about exactly how they are funded, I'd imagine that the 'tourist outlet' funds a large proportion of the research they do.

We did the back stage tour - which lets you into the Research areas. There were scores of animals - most manatees, seals, small whales getting nursed back to health pre release. It was excellent tour. This was early 90s and $6 - so cheap and well worth it.

As a bonus we then get best seats for Orca show. Mrs and I stayed back to let the crowd away and got close to the whales - it was awesome. The trainer had Shamu soak us etc .. I'm just a big kid! :greengrin

Think we're heading back this October :thumbsup:

[Steve-O]

I think they should hang the whale. Or at least allow the relatives of the deceased trainer ten minutes alone in a locked room with the murderous lump of blubber.

I hope I don't meet that whale next time I am swimming somewhere. I won't be held responsible for my actions.

[--------]

:agree:

Totally agree.

I was really proud of my 8 year old who was adamant he didn't want to go to Seaworld when we were in Florida in 2008 as he said it was cruel


There's an argument for Seaworld Centres operating as rescue facilities for castaways - returning animals to the wild.

NOT as amusement parks for morons. :grr:

The number of lethal attacks on the 'trainers' (AKA circus performers) at places like Orlando speaks for itself - dolphin and orca don't attack humans in the wild; these places inflict serious suffering.

But just as long as the morons get their OOOOH's and AAAAAH's on holiday.

[Allant1981]

There's an argument for Seaworld Centres operating as rescue facilities for castaways - returning animals to the wild.

NOT as amusement parks for morons. :grr:

The number of lethal attacks on the 'trainers' (AKA circus performers) at places like Orlando speaks for itself - dolphin and orca don't attack humans in the wild; these places inflict serious suffering.

But just as long as the morons get their OOOOH's and AAAAAH's on holiday.


Fancy getting off your high horse and stop calling the people who have been to seaworld morons as ive been and im certainly not a moron

[RigRoars]

Fancy getting off your high horse and stop calling the people who have been to seaworld morons as ive been and im certainly not a moron


Spot on. I've been with my daughter when she was 5yo and when she was 12yo,we had a great time.There is more to seaworld than the orca show.

Because i went to seaworld with my family doesn't make me a moron.

[--------]

All right - say a more than slight failure of imagination.

Cruelty to animals isn't a joke.

[Allant1981]

All right - say a more than slight failure of imagination.

Cruelty to animals isn't a joke.


do you know for a fact that they are being cruel to the animals? As im pretty certain they are not

[Steve-O]

Fancy getting off your high horse and stop calling the people who have been to seaworld morons as ive been and im certainly not a moron

:agree:

I'd call religious people morons but then I would be tarring everyone with the same brush...

[Petrie's Tache]

Insert eating Popcorn Smiley whilst awaiting the reply!:greengrin

[Steve-O]

Oh, wasn't looking for a big argument really.

Of course I see the point Doddie is trying to make, I think he just came on a bit strong with his "morons" stuff and going over the top with exactly how much 'cruelty' is inflicted on these animals as if Sea World couldn't care less about them.

Isn't it the case that not all of these animals would be capable of returning to the wild?

[--------]

do you know for a fact that they are being cruel to the animals? As im pretty certain they are not


Right - you take animals who live in settled social family groups, ranging thousands of miles a year over the oceans, who have a very high intelligence level (possibly the highest of all the animal kingdom and probably higher than some humans oops, sorry), typically 25 feet long and weighing 5 tons, and confine them in small aquaria singly or in very small groups with no intention of ever returning them to the wild, all for the sake of entertainment...

So they're fed reasonably well, and they have vets in attendance. Big furry deal. they were born for the oceans, not a glorified goldfish bowl.

I still sounds to me to an exact parallel of taking you or me and locking us up in a jail and making us do stupid party tricks for the visitors. There's plenty evidence of high stress and mental disturbance among zoo and circus animals. Some people just don't want to see it.

This is true of lions, tigers, and elephants in circuses. It's true of whales and dolphins in aquaria and those sea-centre that major on entertaining the public.

The film industry had a horrendous record of cruelty to up till not so long ago - after a couple of high-profile scandals in the 1930's (the treatment of horses in 'The Charge of the Light Brigade' and the western 'Jesse James', for example) the American Humane Society moved in and things are vastly improved. It still happens, and though it IS a different issue, the fact that films like 'Every Which Way But Loose' are still shown when it was proved that the orang-utan 'Clyde' had to be beaten by his trainer to make him do what he was required to do, or 'Rambo 3', 'Heaven's Gate', and 'Reds' where horses were deliberately injured or killed for effect says a lot about human attitudes generally.

Never ask how they get the animals to do it - just smile and clap and cheer and OOOOH and AAAAH....

Many sea-centres operate specifically as research facilities and do seek to return animals to the wild. Others justify themselves by claiming that they're publicising environmental issues - helping saving the whale, in other words. The balance and relationship between research and entertainment - entertainment meaning that someone somewhere is making a lot of dollars at someone's or something's expense - is often extremely confused and problematic.

(Set up a freak-show and call it a research lab. We used to do it with the mentally-ill. Now we do it on Channel Four TV - documentaries like 'The Boy With Two Heads' or whatever. All for the sake of public education, of course - but oo-er, Sharon, doesn't he look really creepy?)

But granted the need for study and research - assuming it's actually happening - if the animals are never returned to the wild, how is teaching them to play 'Yankee-Doodle-Dandy' on car-horns 'saving the whale'?

Rescue centres I can understand and applaud. Zoos that exist to return animals to the wild, or to restore disappearing species, like Jersey, for example, I can understand an applaud. Not glorified circus shows.

Performing dolphin shows aren't any different in principle from the idea of dancing bears on chains or those pathetic wee monkeys you can get your photograph taken with in some parts of the Mediterranean.

The dolphins aren't smiling, you know - that's just the shape of their jaws.

[ArabHibee]

Great post Doddie. :top marks

[Wembley67]

Yup...I agree Doddie. Very occasionally I'll come across a post worth reading on The Holy Ground without the poster trying to be all controversial and cause a scene...not pointing a finger at certain people on this thread for instance :wink:
:top marks

[Steve-O]

Many of the animals at Sea World are born in captivity and are unable to be released into the wild.

Although they did capture these Orcas years ago, this is no longer allowed and all new ones are bred in-house where they actually live longer than Orca in the wild.

I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare a bear with a nail through it's nose being dragged around the streets to the state of affairs at Sea World who do also do GOOD, as well as this cruelty you are talking about.

I don't completely disagree overall, I just think you are overstating it a little bit.

You also need to get off that high horse and stop judging every single person who has watched such a show.

[Cocaine&Caviar]

YouTube - **** You Whale And **** You Dolphin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GosClBN6rzk)

**** You whale

[Jay]

Many of the animals at Sea World are born in captivity and are unable to be released into the wild.

Although they did capture these Orcas years ago, this is no longer allowed and all new ones are bred in-house where they actually live longer than Orca in the wild.

I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare a bear with a nail through it's nose being dragged around the streets to the state of affairs at Sea World who do also do GOOD, as well as this cruelty you are talking about.

I don't completely disagree overall, I just think you are overstating it a little bit.

You also need to get off that high horse and stop judging every single person who has watched such a show.

Sorry Doddie but I agree with that bit. As much as I was uncomfortable watching the Shamu show the rest of the place is amazing and great for the kids. They had Manatees that had been rescued and couldn't be returned to the wild - an animal we would never get to see any other way. It was fascinating.

[Ed De Gramo]

Right - you take animals who live in settled social family groups, ranging thousands of miles a year over the oceans, who have a very high intelligence level (possibly the highest of all the animal kingdom and probably higher than some humans oops, sorry), typically 25 feet long and weighing 5 tons, and confine them in small aquaria singly or in very small groups with no intention of ever returning them to the wild, all for the sake of entertainment...

So they're fed reasonably well, and they have vets in attendance. Big furry deal. they were born for the oceans, not a glorified goldfish bowl.

I still sounds to me to an exact parallel of taking you or me and locking us up in a jail and making us do stupid party tricks for the visitors. There's plenty evidence of high stress and mental disturbance among zoo and circus animals. Some people just don't want to see it.

This is true of lions, tigers, and elephants in circuses. It's true of whales and dolphins in aquaria and those sea-centre that major on entertaining the public.

The film industry had a horrendous record of cruelty to up till not so long ago - after a couple of high-profile scandals in the 1930's (the treatment of horses in 'The Charge of the Light Brigade' and the western 'Jesse James', for example) the American Humane Society moved in and things are vastly improved. It still happens, and though it IS a different issue, the fact that films like 'Every Which Way But Loose' are still shown when it was proved that the orang-utan 'Clyde' had to be beaten by his trainer to make him do what he was required to do, or 'Rambo 3', 'Heaven's Gate', and 'Reds' where horses were deliberately injured or killed for effect says a lot about human attitudes generally.

Never ask how they get the animals to do it - just smile and clap and cheer and OOOOH and AAAAH....

Many sea-centres operate specifically as research facilities and do seek to return animals to the wild. Others justify themselves by claiming that they're publicising environmental issues - helping saving the whale, in other words. The balance and relationship between research and entertainment - entertainment meaning that someone somewhere is making a lot of dollars at someone's or something's expense - is often extremely confused and problematic.

(Set up a freak-show and call it a research lab. We used to do it with the mentally-ill. Now we do it on Channel Four TV - documentaries like 'The Boy With Two Heads' or whatever. All for the sake of public education, of course - but oo-er, Sharon, doesn't he look really creepy?)

But granted the need for study and research - assuming it's actually happening - if the animals are never returned to the wild, how is teaching them to play 'Yankee-Doodle-Dandy' on car-horns 'saving the whale'?

Rescue centres I can understand and applaud. Zoos that exist to return animals to the wild, or to restore disappearing species, like Jersey, for example, I can understand an applaud. Not glorified circus shows.

Performing dolphin shows aren't any different in principle from the idea of dancing bears on chains or those pathetic wee monkeys you can get your photograph taken with in some parts of the Mediterranean.

The dolphins aren't smiling, you know - that's just the shape of their jaws.

:top marks

[--------]

Many of the animals at Sea World are born in captivity and are unable to be released into the wild.

Although they did capture these Orcas years ago, this is no longer allowed and all new ones are bred in-house where they actually live longer than Orca in the wild.

I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare a bear with a nail through it's nose being dragged around the streets to the state of affairs at Sea World who do also do GOOD, as well as this cruelty you are talking about.

I don't completely disagree overall, I just think you are overstating it a little bit.

You also need to get off that high horse and stop judging every single person who has watched such a show.


If it weren't for the people who go along, there wouldn't be a show.

There are degrees of cruelty, and lying behind all animal cruelty is the attitude that animals are basically funny creatures put on the planet for our amusement. At one end of the spectrum there are those who take their amusement 'lite' - so to speak - in zoos and circuses. At the other end are bear-baiters and bullfighters and people who run dog-fights and cock-fights, again for amusement and profit.

What I was actually saying originally is that we shouldn't in any way be surprised if we effectively imprison intelligent free-ranging social animals for the term of their natural lives, and then once in a while one of them turns on one of the guards. We see the staff there as trainers; the whales and dolphins might very well see them as tormentors....

[khib70]

There's an argument for Seaworld Centres operating as rescue facilities for castaways - returning animals to the wild.

NOT as amusement parks for morons. :grr:

The number of lethal attacks on the 'trainers' (AKA circus performers) at places like Orlando speaks for itself - dolphin and orca don't attack humans in the wild; these places inflict serious suffering.

But just as long as the morons get their OOOOH's and AAAAAH's on holiday.
Hmmm. Bit high-handed. Apparently the 17th Century Puritans banned bear-baiting not because of the cruelty involved but because of how much the spectators enjoyed it. I can see a bit of that here.

I'm not advocating the return of bear-baiting, but dismissing ordinary people who enjoy watching beautiful animals perform without any duress or pain as "morons" smacks of elitism and residual Puritanism. Each to their own, I say.

[--------]

Hmmm. Bit high-handed. Apparently the 17th Century Puritans banned bear-baiting not because of the cruelty involved but because of how much the spectators enjoyed it. I can see a bit of that here.

I'm not advocating the return of bear-baiting, but dismissing ordinary people who enjoy watching beautiful animals perform without any duress or pain as "morons" smacks of elitism and residual Puritanism. Each to their own, I say.


You're sure of that? :cool2:

I'm not in any way against people enjoying themselves. I am however concerned when their enjoyment causes distress to other people or to animals, or when their enjoyment puts others in danger.

Supposing your sweeping generalisation about the Puritans of the 17th century were true (and that I truly doubt), or that I myself harbour 'residual Puritanism' (not quite sure what that is, but OK....) I still fail to see what relevance that has to the question raised in this thread.

And in case you hadn't noticed, I amended the expression 'morons' to 'slight failure of imagination'. As in, "Never ask how they get the animals to do it - just smile and clap and cheer and OOOOH and AAAAH...."

Just as a matter of interest - how much 17th century Puritan literature have you read?

[steakbake]

I think they should hang the whale. Or at least allow the relatives of the deceased trainer ten minutes alone in a locked room with the murderous lump of blubber.

:top marks

I for one would get a good night's sleep at the end of it. I demand the government brings in a scheme whereby whales and other potentially dangerous large water-based mammals have to undergo criminal record checks.

I mean this whale turned out to be a killer in daily contact with children. CHILDREN!! Won't someone think of the children?

[greenlex]

You're sure of that? :cool2:

I'm not in any way against people enjoying themselves. I am however concerned when their enjoyment causes distress to other people or to animals, or when their enjoyment puts others in danger.

Supposing your sweeping generalisation about the Puritans of the 17th century were true (and that I truly doubt), or that I myself harbour 'residual Puritanism' (not quite sure what that is, but OK....) I still fail to see what relevance that has to the question raised in this thread.

And in case you hadn't noticed, I amended the expression 'morons' to 'slight failure of imagination'. As in, "Never ask how they get the animals to do it - just smile and clap and cheer and OOOOH and AAAAH...."

Just as a matter of interest - how much 17th century Puritan literature have you read?
What aboot when we are scudding the Yams 7-0 or 6-2 ? does that not contradict what you are saying?

[--------]

What aboot when we are scudding the Yams 7-0 or 6-2 ? does that not contradict what you are saying?


Yams are an indeterminate and non-specific life-form, distantly related to root-vegetables; I don't think they're really capable of feeling pain - where you or I would experience distress, a Yam enters a state of false euphoria and denial of reality best described as a condition of self-anaesthesia and delusion.

Whales are a much more highly-developed life-form than Yams.

Besides, the happiness these results gave all right-thinking people (aka Hibees) far out-weighed any minor distress caused to others.