Is football still in the dark ages?

[Pete]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8513284.stm

This is one big "sweep it under the carpet" by those in power. It's as if it's still a taboo subject and dirty issue that doesn't deserve to be addressed.

I like the advert because it's hard-hitting and is to the point. That's what's needed in my opinion. A player from every club should have been MADE to contribute to this campaign.
Players and clubs are falling over themselves to back anti-racism campaigns...why can't they swallow their pride for this cause? Surely their million pound salaries will cushion the blow their fragile pride takes. Imagine if a group of straight footballers...no matter who they were...stood up and said this was unnaceptable. I think it would make a difference.

The more I think about this the more nuts it is. Homosexuality is accepted in every workplace nowadays. The music, artistic and performing art world is almost littered with gay people. Why is football the last remnant of an age where people were ridiculed and vilified because of their sexuality?

I can understand homophobia on the terraces to an extent...but not from the top of a footballing organisation!!

[Betty Boop]

I can't understand why the FA pulled the ad, and pretty disappointing comments from Gordon Taylor IMO. Gordon Taylor said homophobia in football is not a straightforward issue?? I can't see the difference between this issue and the anti-racism campaign.

YouTube - Kick Homophobia Out of Football. A film from the FA and Kick It Out. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1270cn0YxSo)

[Pretty Boy]

I can't understand why the FA pulled the ad, and pretty disappointing comments from Gordon Taylor IMO. Gordon Taylor said homophobia in football is not a straightforward issue?? I can't see the difference between this issue and the anti-racism campaign.

YouTube - Kick Homophobia Out of Football. A film from the FA and Kick It Out. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1270cn0YxSo)

That advert is absolutely brilliant. Straight to the point and pretty realistic and gritty.

As for the issue at hand. If Gordon Taylor honestly doesn't believe homophobia is an issue he obviously hasn't attended many football games lately.

Personally i think the racism campaign gets far more backing due to the fact that most people now accept that racism is wrong in any form. However there is still, sadly, a train of thought amongst some that homophobia is somehow acceptable.

[ArabHibee]

:agree:

It really gets my goat when Hibs fans sing about Paul Hartley being gay.

Because it simply isn't true.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree:

It really gets my goat when Hibs fans sing about Paul Hartley being gay.

Because it simply isn't true.

Doesn't matter to the mob mentality whether he is or not. It's still seen as a sign of weakness, and "fair game" for abuse.

It was, of course, also a direct response to the Hearts singing that we were all gay. IMO, the better answer was the original chant we used ie to sing that chant ourselves. THAT had class and humour.

[Hainan Hibs]

To be honest I sang the Paul Hartley song because he took such a tantrum because he just could not handle it:greengrin.

Seriously though Homophobia is something I think that needs tackled in the game. I liked the advert, straight to the point and quite dark.

[CropleyWasGod]

To be honest I sang the Paul Hartley song because he took such a tantrum because he just could not handle it:greengrin.

.

... which is the mob mentality thing I was talking about. Boo the other team's best player, shout abuse about his hair, his wife, his sexuality. Anything that might just put him off and give our team an edge.

Absolutely irrational, of course. But, whoever said being a football supporter was rational?

[ArabHibee]

But how rife is this in Scottish Football?

[CropleyWasGod]

But how rife is this in Scottish Football?

What? Homosexuality or homophobia?

In either case, no more or less than in the UK football scene, I would say.

[ArabHibee]

What? Homosexuality or homophobia?

In either case, no more or less than in the UK football scene, I would say.

Homophobia. I've never heard someone shouting abuse at a player because of his known sexuality.

[CropleyWasGod]

Homophobia. I've never heard someone shouting abuse at a player because of his known sexuality.

Gary Caldwell and the hun? :greengrin

That's not what you mean though, I know. You mean a gay player.

That's just it. We don't know who is gay, because gay players won't come out. Quite understandably so. Can you imagine the abuse they'd have to take?

[Green Mikey]

:agree:

It really gets my goat when Hibs fans sing about Paul Hartley being gay.

Because it simply isn't true.

Racists really get my goat. They are the people who are directing abuse at players because they are different.

IMO people are not attacking people because of their actual sexuality but use derogative terms to offend players. This is someting that is commonplace in society especially amongst men and even in the media. Did Chris Moyles not describe something as being 'gay' once?

[Pretty Boy]

Homophobia. I've never heard someone shouting abuse at a player because of his known sexuality.

If you shout abuse at someone because you think they are gay or becuase it's perceived to be funny that is still homophobia whether or not they actually are gay or not.

[ArabHibee]

If you shout abuse at someone because you think they are gay or becuase it's perceived to be funny that is still homophobia whether or not they actually are gay or not.

So if someone shouts 'Nish, ya poofy barsteward' coz he falls down all the time, that could be classed as homophobic?

[Chuckie]

:agree:

It really gets my goat when Hibs fans sing about Paul Hartley being gay.

Because it simply isn't true.


Yes it is..

[CropleyWasGod]

So if someone shouts 'Nish, ya poofy barsteward' coz he falls down all the time, that could be classed as homophobic?

Yes. It's making an assumption that being a "poof" is something negative.

[Betty Boop]

Yes. It's making an assumption that being a "poof" is something negative.

:agree: Graham le Saux suffered years of homophobic abuse, because he was a Guardian reader.

[ArabHibee]

Yes. It's making an assumption that being a "poof" is something negative.
Never thought of it like that. Good point.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree: Graham le Saux suffered years of homophobic abuse, because he was a Guardian reader.

..whereas a shout of "ya Guardian-reading Liberal *******!" just wouldn't have e the same ring to it. :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

..whereas a shout of "ya Guardian-reading Liberal *******!" just wouldn't have e the same ring to it. :greengrin

:greengrin

[GhostofBolivar]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=buccigross_john&id=4685761

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=buccigross_john&id=4901961

[Hibs Class]

:agree:

It really gets my goat when Hibs fans sing about Paul Hartley being gay.

Because it simply isn't true.


Neither are all Hibees gay. There are probably relatively few football songs that would stand up to close scrutiny

[Pretty Boy]

So if someone shouts 'Nish, ya poofy barsteward' coz he falls down all the time, that could be classed as homophobic?

In theory yes because it is implying there is something wrong with being gay.

In reality the terms poof and fag and so on are not exclusively used to describe gay people so it's probably just someone shouting without thinking.

I would say the scenarios in the advert in question are more what i'm getting at. Stupid comments such as 'bummer' or 'ar5e bandit' or horrendous things such as 'i hope you die of AIDS'. It's attitudes like this i feel have no place in a football stadium or anywhere else for that matter.

[Betty Boop]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=buccigross_john&id=4685761

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=buccigross_john&id=4901961

Beautifully written articles. :agree:

[Scouse Hibee]

If it's not Gay it will be something else, football chants never change, wasn't that long ago John Barnes was getting pelted with bananas.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------


In theory yes because it is implying there is something wrong with being gay.

In reality the terms poof and fag and so on are not exclusively used to describe gay people so it's probably just someone shouting without thinking.

I would say the scenarios in the advert in question are more what i'm getting at. Stupid comments such as 'bummer' or 'ar5e bandit' or horrendous things such as 'i hope you die of AIDS'. It's attitudes like this i feel have no place in a football stadium or anywhere else for that matter.

Sadly in many people's minds there is somthing wrong with being gay.

[hibsbollah]

Its very possible that (due to previous centuries of camp Roman influence maybe) that 'the Dark Ages' were a very enlightened and liberal time, and blokes were mincing about willy-nilly. I hate it when this period in history is stereotyped as homphobic with no evidence:grr:

[Killiehibbie]

If it's not Gay it will be something else, football chants never change, wasn't that long ago John Barnes was getting pelted with bananas.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------



Sadly in many people's minds there is somthing wrong with being gay.

If you're not a gay man there is something not right with sex between males.

[Woody1985]

If it's not Gay it will be something else, football chants never change, wasn't that long ago John Barnes was getting pelted with bananas.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------



Sadly in many people's minds there is somthing wrong with being gay.

I'll probably get pelters for this but IMO I think it is wrong and don't think it's sad to have that opinion. I just think that it is only natural for a man and woman to have sex given their make up. I understand that people are naturally gay although it seems to have manifested into some kind of fad for some people.

The way I see it is that as long as my thoughts on the matter do not show themselves in a negative way towards people who are gay or put them in a situation where it would affect a personal or working relationship I'm happy with that. Some might not be but that's the way it is.

Fire away. :tin hat:

[Danderhall Hibs]

I understand that people are naturally gay although it seems to have manifested into some kind of fad for some people.


I'd agree with that.

Serious question - if it's a gene that causes some folk to be gay from birth how come this gene doesn't "run out" due to them not being involved in reproduction?

[Pete]

If you're not a gay man there is something not right with sex between males.

I'm not a gay man and I couldn't disagree with you more.

I see no reason to think there's something wrong with it because it isn't my preference.

[Pete]

I'll probably get pelters for this but IMO I think it is wrong and don't think it's sad to have that opinion. I just think that it is only natural for a man and woman to have sex given their make up. I understand that people are naturally gay although it seems to have manifested into some kind of fad for some people.

The way I see it is that as long as my thoughts on the matter do not show themselves in a negative way towards people who are gay or put them in a situation where it would affect a personal or working relationship I'm happy with that. Some might not be but that's the way it is.

Fire away. :tin hat:

If this is the case then blow jobs and anal will be out the window for you then. That's also a form of deviation from staight sex.

People talk about the mechanics too much. You can make heterosexual sex sound pretty disgusting and wierd if you tried.

People also talk about "what's natural" and "fads". Who's to say that homosexuality hasn't been there from the very beginning of humanitys existence?...therefore making it natural.

[Big Ed]

I'd agree with that.

Serious question - if it's a gene that causes some folk to be gay from birth how come this gene doesn't "run out" due to them not being involved in reproduction?

I'm no expert but if it is a gene, then surely someone would be working on a "cure"?

[Betty Boop]

I'm no expert but if it is a gene, then surely someone would be working on a "cure"?

There is no conclusive evidence that there is a gene or combination of genes.

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/comingoutadvice/a/Causes.htm

[Pete]

Its very possible that (due to previous centuries of camp Roman influence maybe) that 'the Dark Ages' were a very enlightened and liberal time, and blokes were mincing about willy-nilly. I hate it when this period in history is stereotyped as homphobic with no evidence:grr:

:greengrin

I do think that somewhere along the line homosexuality became a taboo subject and was treated as "not normal".

I think it's only in very recent times we are starting to change our perception of what is "normal" and "acceptable" behaviour in society.
The idea that emotions should simply be governed by our genitalia and their biological compatibility is contradictory to the human mind and it's capacity to think beyond these parameters.

Straight 20 year old men don't go trawling for one nights stands to reproduce.

[Big Ed]

There is no conclusive evidence that there is a gene or combination of genes.

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/comingoutadvice/a/Causes.htm

Thanks. Thought not.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Neither are all Hibees gay. There are probably relatively few football songs that would stand up to close scrutiny


A song which came about from a piss take article which came from a Hibs website. It's all a bit childish IMO.

[CropleyWasGod]

If you're not a gay man there is something not right with sex between males.

Please don't speak for me.

[Killiehibbie]

I'm not a gay man and I couldn't disagree with you more.

I see no reason to think there's something wrong with it because it isn't my preference.

You'd be totally comfortable with a man wanting to penetrate you?

[Woody1985]

If this is the case then blow jobs and anal will be out the window for you then. That's also a form of deviation from staight sex.

People talk about the mechanics too much. You can make heterosexual sex sound pretty disgusting and wierd if you tried.

People also talk about "what's natural" and "fads". Who's to say that homosexuality hasn't been there from the very beginning of humanitys existence?...therefore making it natural.

Not into anal, just feels wrong. :LOL: However, if a guy wants to do it with a woman then fair enough. Sex with a woman is different than two of the same gender IMO.

Also disagree with the point on oral otherwise you would have to rule out any sexual contact i.e. a hand for example unless everyone just dips it straight in without any other contact.

That's why I said I think it is natural for some people to be gay but still think it's wrong. I know of two sets of twins, both M&F mix and all of them are gay. Not really sure how that happened!

In relation to my fad comment, I think it has become a fad for some people, especially men, to walk around acting like woman, talking in high pitched voices and being over dramatic in everything they do and have an attitude that says 'I'm gay and so what' like they feel they have something to prove. Perhaps it's a defence mechanism, I don't really know.

As I say, as long as my opinion doesn't prejudice against people then I don't think people should judge me and tell me I'm sad because of that.

[MyJo]

If this is the case then blow jobs and anal will be out the window for you then.

I believe they call that marriage :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

You'd be totally comfortable with a man wanting to penetrate you?

Like many, you are making the assumption that gay male relationships are all about anal sex. They're not. They are as diverse as straight relationships, in emotional and sexual terms.

[Killiehibbie]

Like many, you are making the assumption that gay male relationships are all about anal sex. They're not. They are as diverse as straight relationships, in emotional and sexual terms.

Want to answer a straight question?

[CropleyWasGod]

Want to answer a straight question?

Sorry, wasn't aware you asked me one.

[Killiehibbie]

Sorry, wasn't aware you asked me one.

I asked if you'd be totally comfortable with a man wanting to penetrate you you? Not directed at you but as you are keen to point out the error of my ways you can answer it.

[CropleyWasGod]

I asked if you'd be totally comfortable with a man wanting to penetrate you you? Not directed at you but as you are keen to point out the error of my ways you can answer it.

I wouldn't be.

But I don't see the point of your question. I know gay men who are repulsed by the thought of being penetrated by another man. Most are repulsed by the thought of penetrating a woman. Some gay women are repulsed by the thought of being penetrated by anybody, male or female. Some straight men like the idea of being penetrated by a woman.

It's about personal preference, and respect for that.

[Woody1985]

I wouldn't be.

But I don't see the point of your question. I know gay men who are repulsed by the thought of being penetrated by another man. Most are repulsed by the thought of penetrating a woman. Some gay women are repulsed by the thought of being penetrated by anybody, male or female. Some straight men like the idea of being penetrated by a woman.

It's about personal preference, and respect for that.

I agree completely with this point.

On an issue such as sexuality I don't think people who do not agree with homosexuality or find it unacceptable are sad or bad people providing they don't vent their feelings in a negative way.

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree completely with this point.

On an issue such as sexuality I don't think people who do not agree with homosexuality or find it unacceptable are sad or bad people providing they don't vent their feelings in a negative way.

And I agree with that.

[duncs]

There was a report that came out recently that said heterosexual couples as a percentage have anal sex more than homosexual couples so that blows that conceit out the window.

As for the idea it's a "fad", get a grip. People are acting how they want to, how is it any different to guys acting 'harder' than they actually are? And to be honest, what difference does it make to you? Are you that conceited to think that every gay man wants to bum you? Because that's how it's coming across.

I don't think anyone can ever say what is 'normal' because society is fluid - but back to the original point of the thread...it's no longer acceptable to shout racial abuse at the football, but clearly there is still a lot of homophobic abuse still shouted from the stands and that's what the aim of the campaign is to raise awareness of the issue (and possibly making it easier for footballers to come out).

[Betty Boop]

There was a report that came out recently that said heterosexual couples as a percentage have anal sex more than homosexual couples so that blows that conceit out the window.

As for the idea it's a "fad", get a grip. People are acting how they want to, how is it any different to guys acting 'harder' than they actually are? And to be honest, what difference does it make to you? Are you that conceited to think that every gay man wants to bum you? Because that's how it's coming across.

I don't think anyone can ever say what is 'normal' because society is fluid - but back to the original point of the thread...it's no longer acceptable to shout racial abuse at the football, but clearly there is still a lot of homophobic abuse still shouted from the stands and that's what the aim of the campaign is to raise awareness of the issue (and possibly making it easier for footballers to come out).

:top marks

[Woody1985]

There was a report that came out recently that said heterosexual couples as a percentage have anal sex more than homosexual couples so that blows that conceit out the window.

As for the idea it's a "fad", get a grip. People are acting how they want to, how is it any different to guys acting 'harder' than they actually are? And to be honest, what difference does it make to you? Are you that conceited to think that every gay man wants to bum you? Because that's how it's coming across.

I don't think anyone can ever say what is 'normal' because society is fluid - but back to the original point of the thread...it's no longer acceptable to shout racial abuse at the football, but clearly there is still a lot of homophobic abuse still shouted from the stands and that's what the aim of the campaign is to raise awareness of the issue (and possibly making it easier for footballers to come out).

First of all, I think you may have replied to both my posts and Killie's in one go which makes it difficult to respond.

Perhaps they do have anal sex more than homosexuals but I think that may be something for Killie.

I don't think every gay man wants to bum me, again, probably for Killie. I do however think that it is a fad to be gay and as camp as can be. It doesn't make any difference to me if people act like that, it's up to them how that act. I suspect men act hard through naturally want to be the most dominant male in their circle of friends or elsewhere. I think that's different.

I assume that you're under the impression that there are lots of footballers waiting to broadcast their sexuality? People, straight or gay, don't always feel the need to broadcast their sexuality. I don't feel the need to say to the people I work with 'Hey, I'm hetro and though you should all know'.

It's kind of patronising to say to people 'it's okay, you can come out, we won't hurt you. C'mere and I'll give you a hug.' If a footballer feels comfortable and mentally strong enough to come out then fair play to them.

In a male dominated environment I suspect their fellow players already know who is gay and who isn't. There's no need for them to tell the fans.

[Phil D. Rolls]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8513284.stm

This is one big "sweep it under the carpet" by those in power. It's as if it's still a taboo subject and dirty issue that doesn't deserve to be addressed.

I like the advert because it's hard-hitting and is to the point. That's what's needed in my opinion. A player from every club should have been MADE to contribute to this campaign.
Players and clubs are falling over themselves to back anti-racism campaigns...why can't they swallow their pride for this cause? Surely their million pound salaries will cushion the blow their fragile pride takes. Imagine if a group of straight footballers...no matter who they were...stood up and said this was unnaceptable. I think it would make a difference.

The more I think about this the more nuts it is. Homosexuality is accepted in every workplace nowadays. The music, artistic and performing art world is almost littered with gay people. Why is football the last remnant of an age where people were ridiculed and vilified because of their sexuality?

I can understand homophobia on the terraces to an extent...but not from the top of a footballing organisation!!

I think Homophobia is still rife throughout society. You'd think psychiatric nursing would be a progressive, liberal environment. I worked with a guy who was frequently harassed and bullied by female staff members because he was gay.

As to whether it's a fad or not is another matter. Maybe people are less inhibited about exploring their sexuality than they once were?

[ancient hibee]

I think Homophobia is still rife throughout society. You'd think psychiatric nursing would be a progressive, liberal environment. I worked with a guy who was frequently harassed and bullied by female staff members because he was gay.

As to whether it's a fad or not is another matter. Maybe people are less inhibited about exploring their sexuality than they once were?
He wouldn't be bullied because he was gay but because they were bullies.Normal people don't feel the need to bully anyone.

[Phil D. Rolls]

He wouldn't be bullied because he was gay but because they were bullies.Normal people don't feel the need to bully anyone.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, actually. From what I've come across, groups of women can be very good at singling people out and making their life a misery.

[Killiehibbie]

I wouldn't be.

But I don't see the point of your question. I know gay men who are repulsed by the thought of being penetrated by another man. Most are repulsed by the thought of penetrating a woman. Some gay women are repulsed by the thought of being penetrated by anybody, male or female. Some straight men like the idea of being penetrated by a woman.

It's about personal preference, and respect for that.


Maybe the gay men who have 'chatted me up' are the exception or at the wind up but they have taken great delight in describing what they would do even after being told to shut it. I suppose that's what happens when you're their last chance before they get home but walking the rest of the way gives them time to sober up.

[CropleyWasGod]

Maybe the gay men who have 'chatted me up' are the exception or at the wind up but they have taken great delight in describing what they would do even after being told to shut it. I suppose that's what happens when you're their last chance before they get home but walking the rest of the way gives them time to sober up.

Be flattered :greengrin

Actually, reminds me of the Graham Norton line...

"What's the difference between a straight man and a bisexual one?"

"Oh, about six pints of lager."

[lapsedhibee]

Serious question - if it's a gene that causes some folk to be gay from birth how come this gene doesn't "run out" due to them not being involved in reproduction?
Some genes you can catch from the seats in public toilets. The homosexuality gene is one of them. That's why gay men have such a high regard for public toilets. :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Maybe the gay men who have 'chatted me up' are the exception or at the wind up but they have taken great delight in describing what they would do even after being told to shut it. I suppose that's what happens when you're their last chance before they get home but walking the rest of the way gives them time to sober up.

I remember that from my days on the road! It made me feel so cheap.:boo hoo:

[Killiehibbie]

I remember that from my days on the road! It made me feel so cheap.:boo hoo:

Bad enough with the desperate women at 3am without men as well.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Bad enough with the desperate women at 3am without men as well.

:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Thread hijack, I know, but for those who are interested....

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/uganda_rights_3/?rc=fbp&pv=3

[ArabHibee]

Some genes you can catch from the seats in public toilets. The homosexuality gene is one of them. That's why gay men have such a high regard for public toilets. :agree:

Did you not mean you can catch your jeans on the seats in public toilets? :greengrin

[McIntosh]

Sadly and it is not just football. My wife writes on this issue, after the publication of her book chapter, "A postcolonial interrogation of attitudes toward homosexuality and gay tourism: the case of Jamaica", in M. Daye, D. Chambers and S. Roberts. New perspectives in Caribbean Tourism: New York: Routledge resulted in death threats!!!!

In relation to football, homosexuality is common rather than 'gay' identity. I have known one homosexual and one 'gay' Premier league chairman, one homosexual Premier league manager and numerous homosexual players, several of which played for Hearts and Hibs. Some live and lived close to the wind because they were in homosexual relationships whilst married with children. The only player that I have known who was was openly 'gay' was driven to take his own life which says a lot about the pressure.

This situation is not helped by the media, for example a Scottish sunday tabloid had a Hearts player under surveillance for several weeks and to such a degree that the player knew he was being followed. The irony is that they followed the wrong person, ironies of ironies it was not the player who was 'homosexual' but his twin brother!!!!! Yet this action exposes that being a footballer and being gay in Scotland is still a story.

[Pete]

Sadly and it is not just football. My wife writes on this issue, after the publication of her book chapter, "A postcolonial interrogation of attitudes toward homosexuality and gay tourism: the case of Jamaica", in M. Daye, D. Chambers and S. Roberts. New perspectives in Caribbean Tourism: New York: Routledge resulted in death threats!!!!

In relation to football, homosexuality is common rather than 'gay' identity. I have known one homosexual and one 'gay' Premier league chairman, one homosexual Premier league manager and numerous homosexual players, several of which played for Hearts and Hibs. Some live and lived close to the wind because they were in homosexual relationships whilst married with children. The only player that I have known who was was openly 'gay' was driven to take his own life which says a lot about the pressure.

This situation is not helped by the media, for example a Scottish sunday tabloid had a Hearts player under surveillance for several weeks and to such a degree that the player knew he was being followed. The irony is that they followed the wrong person, ironies of ironies it was not the player who was 'homosexual' but his twin brother!!!!! Yet this action exposes that being a footballer and being gay in Scotland is still a story.

I was one of those giving him stick on the park for being gay. However, there were so many stories of stick being dished out off the park...even by Jambos!

Looking back that man was one of the bravest sportsmen that has ever lived...coming out in such an era and in such a sport. Football in that era was no place for an sort of deviancy.

The word brave is overused sometimes. He was a lion of a man.

[McIntosh]

I was one of those giving him stick on the park for being gay. However, there were so many stories of stick being dished out off the park...even by Jambos!

Looking back that man was one of the bravest sportsmen that has ever lived...coming out in such an era and in such a sport. Football in that era was no place for an sort of deviancy.

The word brave is overused sometimes. He was a lion of a man.

:top marksQuoted for truth. Yes, he was.

[lapsedhibee]

In relation to football, homosexuality is common rather than 'gay' identity. I have known one homosexual and one 'gay' Premier league chairman, one homosexual Premier league manager and numerous homosexual players, several of which played for Hearts and Hibs. Some live and lived close to the wind because they were in homosexual relationships whilst married with children. The only player that I have known who was was openly 'gay' was driven to take his own life which says a lot about the pressure.

Do you mean Hearts or Hibs? If not, might expect a new ditty or two about Mikey "Mikey" Stewart at the next derby.

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you mean Hearts or Hibs? If not, might expect a new ditty or two about Mikey "Mikey" Stewart at the next derby.

Ahhhh, now I know why they called him Gay Gordon.

:devil:

[McIntosh]

Execute gay scouts, says Uganda chief scout

Scout children to be hanged under proposed law

World scout movement urged to expel Uganda

Call for UK Scout Association to sever links with Uganda scout movement

London, UK - 16 February 2010

"The leader of the scout movement in Uganda is demanding the execution of all scouts and scout leaders who commit repeated homosexual acts," reports human rights campaigner, Peter Tatchell of OutRage!.

"Chief of the Scout Board of Uganda, David Bahati, is proposing that all serial homosexual offenders, including scouts and scout leaders, should be hanged - even children.

"Mr Bahati is a Ugandan MP. His Anti-Homosexuality Bill, which is currently before the Ugandan Parliament, stipulates the death penalty for repeat same-sex relations and life imprisonment for all other homosexual acts, even for mere kissing, touching or caressing.

"Scout leaders who fail to report gay scouts to the police will face three years in jail. Any scout leader who provides supportive advice to a gay scout will be jailed for five to seven years.

"This Bill is an expression of prejudice, intolerance, discrimination and violence, contrary to scout principles," said Mr Tatchell.

See a summary and link to the Anti-Homosexuality Bill here:
http://www.petertatchell.net/international/uganda-anti-homosexuality-bill-a-briefing.html

Mr Tatchell has written on behalf of OutRage! to the Chief Executive of the Scout Association UK, Derek Twine.

A copy of this letter follows below.

Mr Twine has already referred OutRage!'s concerns to the General Secretary of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement.

"I have asked the Scout Association UK to press the world scouting movement to disaffiliate the scout organisation of Uganda, on the grounds that its leader has violated scouting values by proposing the execution of gay people, including gay Ugandan scouts and scout leaders," added Mr Tatchell.

"My letter calls on the British scout organisation to condemn Mr Bahati and his Anti-Homosexuality Bill, and to refuse to host him again in the UK.

"The British and world scouting movement cannot remain silent, given this threat to kill its members in Uganda. They must break all links with the Ugandan scout organisation while it remains under the leadership of David 'kill the gays' Bahati.

"The international scout movement has a duty to defend its values of universal respect, equality and brotherhood," concluded Mr Tatchell.

[Rory89]

I'm not homophobic but I don't want it shoved down my throat.

[CropleyWasGod]

Execute gay scouts, says Uganda chief scout

Scout children to be hanged under proposed law

World scout movement urged to expel Uganda

Call for UK Scout Association to sever links with Uganda scout movement

London, UK - 16 February 2010

"The leader of the scout movement in Uganda is demanding the execution of all scouts and scout leaders who commit repeated homosexual acts," reports human rights campaigner, Peter Tatchell of OutRage!.

"Chief of the Scout Board of Uganda, David Bahati, is proposing that all serial homosexual offenders, including scouts and scout leaders, should be hanged - even children.

"Mr Bahati is a Ugandan MP. His Anti-Homosexuality Bill, which is currently before the Ugandan Parliament, stipulates the death penalty for repeat same-sex relations and life imprisonment for all other homosexual acts, even for mere kissing, touching or caressing.

"Scout leaders who fail to report gay scouts to the police will face three years in jail. Any scout leader who provides supportive advice to a gay scout will be jailed for five to seven years.

"This Bill is an expression of prejudice, intolerance, discrimination and violence, contrary to scout principles," said Mr Tatchell.

See a summary and link to the Anti-Homosexuality Bill here:
http://www.petertatchell.net/international/uganda-anti-homosexuality-bill-a-briefing.html

Mr Tatchell has written on behalf of OutRage! to the Chief Executive of the Scout Association UK, Derek Twine.

A copy of this letter follows below.

Mr Twine has already referred OutRage!'s concerns to the General Secretary of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement.

"I have asked the Scout Association UK to press the world scouting movement to disaffiliate the scout organisation of Uganda, on the grounds that its leader has violated scouting values by proposing the execution of gay people, including gay Ugandan scouts and scout leaders," added Mr Tatchell.

"My letter calls on the British scout organisation to condemn Mr Bahati and his Anti-Homosexuality Bill, and to refuse to host him again in the UK.

"The British and world scouting movement cannot remain silent, given this threat to kill its members in Uganda. They must break all links with the Ugandan scout organisation while it remains under the leadership of David 'kill the gays' Bahati.

"The international scout movement has a duty to defend its values of universal respect, equality and brotherhood," concluded Mr Tatchell.

So sign the petition!! :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not homophobic but I don't want it shoved down my throat.

:yawn:

[McIntosh]

So sign the petition!! :wink:

Rest of email:

What you can do - see the end of this email.


Copy of Peter Tatchell's email to the Scout Association UK:

Derek Twine
Chief Executive
The Scout Association
Gilwell Park
London E4 7QW

11 February 2010

Dear Derek Twine,

Uganda Scout leader David Bahati and the Anti-Homosexuality Bill

Your letter dated 21 January 2010 - Ref: DMT/AEB

Sincere thanks for your reply to the letter of my OutRage! colleague, David Allison.

We are most appreciative of the efforts made by the Scout Association UK to ensure equal opportunity and non-discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.

Unfortunately, such wisdom and fairness is not replicated by the leader of the scouting movement in Uganda, David Bahati MP. As you know, he is head of the Scout Board of Uganda; in effect Chief Scout.

He is calling for the execution of lesbian and gay scouts, and other lesbian and gay Ugandans.

His Anti-Homosexuality Bill, currently before the Parliament of Uganda, proposes that repeat homosexual acts will carry a sentence of death, and that anyone - gay or heterosexual - who advocates gay equality or offers welfare support to homosexuals will be sentenced to five to seven years jail. A person in authority - a parent, teacher or scout leader - who fails to report a gay person to the police within 24 hours will be jailed for three years.

Mr Bahati's proposals to persecute lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people are a complete contradiction of scouting values and of the fundamental principles of equality and human rights, as enshrined in international humanitarian laws, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

I am most grateful that you have referred our concerns about Mr Bahati's plan to execute LGBT Ugandans, including lesbian and gay scouts, to the General Secretary of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement (WOSM). Please advise me of the reply you have received.

While we appreciate that every National Scout Organisation (NSO) is independent, we also understand that the WOSM membership of each NSO is conditional on them conforming to the WOSM's scouting values.

David Bahati, the leader of the Uganda scout movement, is promoting hatred, discrimination and the state-sponsored murder of LGBT Ugandans - some of whom will be scouts and scout leaders. His stance and actions are incompatible with scouting values.

If the leader of a NSO was advocating racism and the execution of black people, I am sure the WOSM would take swift steps to rule that the NSO's membership of the WOSM could not continue while such a person remained in a position of authority within the NSO.

FIRST: We therefore request that you ask the WOSM to disaffiliate the Ugandan scout organisation from the WOSM, until such time as David Bahati ceases to hold office in the Ugandan scout movement or until he withdraws and renounces his Anti-Homosexuality Bill. This is something that the UK Scout Association and the WOSM can do. It is within your powers.

SECOND: We realise that the Scout Association UK is not in a position to intervene in the internal affairs of the scouting organisation of Uganda. However, we do believe that the British Scout Association can and should issue a public statement deploring David Bahati's homophobia and his Anti-Homosexuality Bill; making clear that his views and his Bill are incompatible with scouting values and are likely to lead to the persecution of Ugandan LGBT scouts and scouting officials. We respectfully ask you to do this.

THIRD: We reiterate our request that the Scout Association UK announces publicly that it will refuse to host Mr Bahati again in Britain (I believe that you did host him at the time of the 2007 Jamboree), as you would refuse to host an anti-Semitic scout leader who advocated the execution of Jewish people. Again, this is a reasonable and justifiable sanction that is within your powers.

The core of the issue is this: Mr Bahati wants to execute lesbian and gay scouts and scout leaders, as well as other lesbian and gay people. He is Uganda's head scout, and while he remains head scout his actions reflect badly on the whole international scouting movement. It is imperative that the British and world scouting authorities speak out against him and his bill which, if passed, will have deadly consequences for scout members in Uganda.

The reputation of the scout movement depends on action being taken against those in positions of leadership, like Mr Bahati, who abuse and violate scouting values.

Please advise. Thank you.

Yours sincerely,

Peter Tatchell
OutRage! - The LGBT Human Rights Campaign


What you can do

Please ask your MP to sign EDM 575 on Uganda's Anti-Homosexuality Bill

You can email your MP direct via this website:

www.writetothem.com

Just click on the link and enter your postcode. It will tell you who is your MP and you can email him or her direct.

All you need to do is write as follows:

Draft letter to your MP

Dear (insert your MP's name),

As one of your constituents, I urge you to sign EDM 575, tabled by Harry Cohen MP. It condemns Uganda's draconian Anti-Homosexuality Bill. This Bill proposes the death penalty for some same-sex acts and life imprisonment for others. The Bill also proposes up to seven years jail for anyone who advocates gay equality and three years jail for parents who fail to report their gay sons or daughters to the police.

See a copy of the Bill here:
http://www.ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/09/Nov/Bill-No-18-Anti-Homosexuality-Bill-2009_Uganda.pdf

And a summary of the key points of the Bill here:
http://www.petertatchell.net/international/uganda-anti-homosexuality-bill-a-briefing.html

Please also consider writing to the Uganda High Commissioner in London:

Her Excellency, High Commissioner Joan Rwabyomere, Uganda High Commission, Uganda House, 58-59 Trafalgar Square, London WC2N 5DX. Phone 020-7839-5783, Fax 020-7839-8925 or E-mail: [email protected]

Thank you.

Insert your name, address and email.

Further information:

Peter Tatchell - 0207 403 1790

[CropleyWasGod]

Didny want a bloody thesis... just a yes or no would've done :wink:

[ArabHibee]

I stand corrected. I heard someone shout, "Get up ya poofy *******" at last night's game. Deary me.

[Andy74]

How do we know homophobia is rife in football? We've not really been given the chance to see how an openly gay player would be treated. Probably if there was someone who we knew actually knew to be gay not much would be said about it.

It's a bit like the refugee song, if someone was an actual refugee it wouldn't be sung.

You could say that saying a player is challenging like a poof or a fairy is homophobic. I'm not so sure of that.

It may suggest that there is something negative about being gay being I don't think that is the intention - it is simply playing on the camp image we have of some gay men and suggesting that the challenge being made is more akin to that than of the rugged image we expect of footballers. I don't think it is making comment on the rights and wrongs of being gay in any way.

[Pete]

How do we know homophobia is rife in football? We've not really been given the chance to see how an openly gay player would be treated. Probably if there was someone who we knew actually knew to be gay not much would be said about it.

We actually have been and some might argue the way he was treated drove him to take his own life. If you're simply taking todays society into consideration then no, nobody has come out. However, the one example from the past has probably put them off so we might not know for a long time.



You could say that saying a player is challenging like a poof or a fairy is homophobic. I'm not so sure of that.

It may suggest that there is something negative about being gay being I don't think that is the intention - it is simply playing on the camp image we have of some gay men and suggesting that the challenge being made is more akin to that than of the rugged image we expect of footballers. I don't think it is making comment on the rights and wrongs of being gay in any way.

There is a comedy aspect to the camp image but even so, there are homophobic connotations in your mentioned chants or sayings.

Camp or non-camp, "scene" or "non-scene" people should be treated with the same respect. The image, as you say, that some people have about gay men is the crux of the argument.

It's not about the rights or wrongs it's about acceptance and the realisation that this isn't behaviour that justifies singling out in any way whatsoever.

[Phil D. Rolls]

See all this stuff about Justin Fashnau? Was it homophobia that drove him to suicide, or was it debt, and the prospect of going to prison for under age sex (he was not a paedo)?

Unless there was a suicide note, we don't know. Seems to me he was able to cope with being gay pretty well.

[Betty Boop]

See all this stuff about Justin Fashnau? Was it homophobia that drove him to suicide, or was it debt, and the prospect of going to prison for under age sex (he was not a paedo)?

Unless there was a suicide note, we don't know. Seems to me he was able to cope with being gay pretty well.

Apparently there was.

In March 1998, a seventeen-year-old claimed to police that he had been sexually assaulted by Fashanu after a night of drinking. The assault was alleged to have taken place in Fashanu's apartment in Ellicott, Maryland, United States. Fashanu was questioned about this by the police on 3 April, but he was not held in custody. It was widely reported in the press that the police later arrived at his flat with a warrant to arrest him on charges of second-degree sexual assault, first-degree assault, and second-degree assault. However, Fashanu had already returned to England.
In the morning of 3 May 1998, he was found hanged in a deserted lock-up garage he had broken into, in Shoreditch, London, after visiting Chariots Roman Spa, a local gay sauna. In his suicide note, he stated: "I realised that I had already been presumed guilty. I do not want to give any more embarrassment to my friends and family." An inquest in London, held on 9 September 1998, heard that there was in fact no warrant out for Fashanu's arrest and that the American police had already dropped the investigation because of lack of evidence. The inquest recorded a verdict of suicide.

His wiki page makes grim reading!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Fashanu

[Woody1985]

So based on BBs post, the suicide was nothing to do with him being gay?

It would seem he was pretty comfortable with it since he went to a gay sauna before he topped himself.

[Phil D. Rolls]

So based on BBs post, the suicide was nothing to do with him being gay?

It would seem he was pretty comfortable with it since he went to a gay sauna before he topped himself.

That's how it looks to me. I remember John Colqhoun writing that the Hearts players wives always loved it when they were taken to Justin's flat - it seems like there was no aggression or homophobia when he was at the PBS, anyway.