100,000 believed dead in Haiti

[hibsdaft]

this is a terrible story, Haiti was the place where impoverished citizens were reported to be eating mud cakes a couple of years ago. now much of the infrastructure the place has has been destroyed in the space of an hour.

the place must be hell on earth right now.

puts into perspective some of the inane crap that gets debated over and over in the Holy Ground imo.

[Marabou Stork]

this is a terrible story, Haiti was the place where impoverished citizens were reported to be eating mud cakes a couple of years ago. now much of the infrastructure the place has has been destroyed in the space of an hour.

the place must be hell on earth right now.

puts into perspective some of the inane crap that gets debated over and over in the Holy Ground imo.

It was 'hell on earth' long before the earthquake. These buildings stood absolutely no chance.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/PortAuPrinceTapTap.jpg
http://www.happytellus.com/img/port-au-prince/overlooking-port-au-prince_3268.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/121171334_00d6804604.jpg

[Woody1985]

How many people reside there?

[Betty Boop]

It is a devastating blow for the poorest country in the Western hemisphere, my heart goes out to the Haitians. :boo hoo:

[hibsdaft]

How many people reside there?

ten million

[steakbake]

I was reading about it today. That's a proper disaster. Here's us wetting our pants about a bit of snow.

Imagine that happened here: we'd think the world had ended. Our emergency services would struggle to cope and likely wouldn't manage at all after a point. Go over there and with what little emergency services they have, they haven't got a chance.

It will take years to rebuild Haiti and the trauma of what has gone down will be there for a generation - the smell and sight of destruction and death everywhere. The lost children, husbands, wives, parents, family and friends. Even once the rubble is all cleared up and the dead are all buried, there's all those people who are injured and may never be able to work again in a place where you simply have to work or do something to scratch out a living. It's so terribly, terribly sad.

[Twa Cairpets]

This (http://www.breitbart.tv/they-have-been-cursed-pat-robertson-says-haiti-swore-a-pact-to-the-devil/) beggars belief

[Tazio]

This (http://www.breitbart.tv/they-have-been-cursed-pat-robertson-says-haiti-swore-a-pact-to-the-devil/) beggars belief

I actually get embarrassed to share a surname with this lowlife, half witted ****ing ****.

[GlesgaeHibby]

This (http://www.breitbart.tv/they-have-been-cursed-pat-robertson-says-haiti-swore-a-pact-to-the-devil/) beggars belief

:bitchy: How crazy can you get. At a time when these people need all the help they can get this moron decides to try and blame it on a supposed pact with the devil.

And I thought The Hun and The Daily Heil were bad this morning running front page stories about celebs and hackers extradition respectively.

[lapsedhibee]

This (http://www.breitbart.tv/they-have-been-cursed-pat-robertson-says-haiti-swore-a-pact-to-the-devil/) beggars belief

Not going to watch, would destroy too many of my remaining brain cells. What's he saying - divine retribution for Aids, something like that?

[Twa Cairpets]

Not going to watch, would destroy too many of my remaining brain cells. What's he saying - divine retribution for Aids, something like that?

Pact with devil arrived at to expel the French from the island, therefore...

[lapsedhibee]

Pact with devil arrived at to expel the French from the island, therefore...

It's so obviously true, now that it's pointed out. :agree:

[hibsbollah]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/14/haiti-history-earthquake-disaster

Good introduction to the islands history here. The worlds first successful slave rebellion.

[LiverpoolHibs]

An absolutely superb article by Peter Hallward in the Guardian the other day that everyone should read. Exploding the idea that things like this are just unavoidable natural disasters.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/13/our-role-in-haitis-plight

And, in contrast, see how the cogs of neoliberalism turn in the face of awful events such as this. The incredibly influential think-tank the Heritage Foundation with an article on how the U.S. should use the earthquake to advance their control in the region. Due to complaints about the crushing supercilliousness and sheer contempt, the title of the article has been changed from the original Amidst the Suffering, Crisis Offers Opportunity to the U.S. to the marginally less appalling Things to Remember Whilst Helping Haiti.

http://blog.heritage.org/2010/01/13/things-to-remember-while-helping-haiti/

Profiting from disaster and the death of c. 100,000 people, it's the American Dream.

[JE89]

This (http://www.breitbart.tv/they-have-been-cursed-pat-robertson-says-haiti-swore-a-pact-to-the-devil/) beggars belief

What a joke. Swore a pact with the devil in the 19th century and this is the consequence. Deluded pr!ck :agree:

[Betty Boop]

I wonder if the BBC will allow an appeal from the Emergency Disasters Commitee?

[Gatecrasher]

UK and US putting in some good donations and already have sent workers to help out.

[Betty Boop]

Desperate scenes coming from Haiti. So sad.

[Betty Boop]

Nick Griffin sticks the boot in. :bitchy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8462717.stm

[Twa Cairpets]

Nick Griffin sticks the boot in. :bitchy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8462717.stm

He's a charmer isnt he. I'm sure Corrie Greens will be along in a minute to explain why he's got a good point though

[hibsdaft]

apart from anything else, he's talking *****.

secondly, i keep up to date with his utterances and i don't recall him saying anything on winter fuel poverty until now. fuel poverty is a serious issue but nick griffin only cares about race.

in France they capped the price of fuel last summer, something they were able to do because the state has a stake in the energy firm/s. in the UK we are all subject to the whims of the market and those who exploit the market for personal gain by way of speculation/ manipulation of it.

apologies for going off on a tangent.


He's a charmer isnt he. I'm sure Corrie Greens will be along in a minute to explain why he's got a good point though

insinuating that CG is a Griffin supporter is not on imo, as far as i'm aware his posts have never suggested that.

[Twa Cairpets]

insinuating that CG is a Griffin supporter is not on imo, as far as i'm aware his posts have never suggested that.

If he's not and he's offended by the insinuation then of course I apologise unreservedly.

Strikes me as odd he has a picture of him in his sig though

[New Corrie]

He's a charmer isnt he. I'm sure Corrie Greens will be along in a minute to explain why he's got a good point though


You're not on, that's out of order, that BNP malarky isn't my thing and never has been. I despise that stuff.

---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 PM ----------


If he's not and he's offended by the insinuation then of course I apologise unreservedly.

Strikes me as odd he has a picture of him in his sig though


He's holding a Black baby in the photo, it was an attempt at humour.

[Betty Boop]

[QUOTE=hibsdaft;2311412]apart from anything else, he's talking *****.

secondly, i keep up to date with his utterances and i don't recall him saying anything on winter fuel poverty until now. fuel poverty is a serious issue but nick griffin only cares about race.

in France they capped the price of fuel last summer, something they were able to do because the state has a stake in the energy firm/s. in the UK we are all subject to the whims of the market and those who exploit the market for personal gain by way of speculation/ manipulation of it.

apologies for going off on a tangent.


:agree:
Fuel poverty is indeed a serious issue here, however pensioners and those in receipt of income support are given cold weather payments I believe, to help with the costs of heating. I am not a fan of New Labour by any means, but I don't think anybody could argue with this initiative. Nick Griffin is a piece of filth!

[Twa Cairpets]

You're not on, that's out of order, that BNP malarky isn't my thing and never has been. I despise that stuff

Fair do's. Apologies offered and insinuation retracted.

[HibeeEmma]

Another tragedy in this topsy turvey world.

Haiti had the highest level of poverty per person in the Western Hemisphere and it's so sad that it had to take this to happen for the conditions of the country to be brought to international attention.

The best thing that can be done from here is to build the country up and develop them to a higher level than they were at before.

The government (as with many poor countries) is highly corrupt so hopefully some intervention can take place and a restructure of the economy will take place to change things.

Just hope it doesn't turn into a post-conflict country such as Rwanda or Sierra Leone, Sudan as they cannot get out the bit with bad governance, no help from neighbouring countries and reluctance to help from the UN.

Apparently this is the worst disaster since the formation of the UN and of course since Obama has been in power so lets hope they have some personal obligations to push for development.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Another tragedy in this topsy turvey world.

Haiti had the highest level of poverty per person in the Western Hemisphere and it's so sad that it had to take this to happen for the conditions of the country to be brought to international attention.

The best thing that can be done from here is to build the country up and develop them to a higher level than they were at before.

The government (as with many poor countries) is highly corrupt so hopefully some intervention can take place and a restructure of the economy will take place to change things.

Just hope it doesn't turn into a post-conflict country such as Rwanda or Sierra Leone, Sudan as they cannot get out the bit with bad governance, no help from neighbouring countries and reluctance to help from the UN.

Apparently this is the worst disaster since the formation of the UN and of course since Obama has been in power so lets hope they have some personal obligations to push for development.

'Interventions' and forced economic restructuring are largely responsible for the disaster being as awful as it has been.

[New Corrie]

Fair do's. Apologies offered and insinuation retracted.


And accepted

[HibeeEmma]

'Interventions' and forced economic restructuring are largely responsible for the disaster being as awful as it has been.


Interventions in the form of conditionality is where the problem lies. The UN, USA and UK cannot give money and ask them for a certain structure in return (that would be going back to Regan and Thatcher days) but instead have to work in partnership which is where the issues occur.

A partnership with the collective goal of rebuilding a country in a state of shock. Obviously donor countries and recipient countries are going to have other agendas (it's 21st century politics) but if all areas can secure accountability it would work. That's where the UN come in!

[steakbake]

Interventions in the form of conditionality is where the problem lies. The UN, USA and UK cannot give money and ask them for a certain structure in return (that would be going back to Regan and Thatcher days) but instead have to work in partnership which is where the issues occur.

A partnership with the collective goal of rebuilding a country in a state of shock. Obviously donor countries and recipient countries are going to have other agendas (it's 21st century politics) but if all areas can secure accountability it would work. That's where the UN come in!

"We'll rebuild your schools if you buy our textbooks and curriculum programme with the high interest loan we're about to give you", sort of stuff. As has happened so often in the past, aid is less about the recipient and more about the donor.

Sadly, cannot see this changing in Haiti - they're not in the position to be able to refuse.

In the short term though, I think you are right - that countries will probably help without conditions to rescue and stabilise, though what happens beyond the reconstruction depends on various countries having the scruples which they to date, have no history of showing.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Interventions in the form of conditionality is where the problem lies. The UN, USA and UK cannot give money and ask them for a certain structure in return (that would be going back to Regan and Thatcher days) but instead have to work in partnership which is where the issues occur.

A partnership with the collective goal of rebuilding a country in a state of shock. Obviously donor countries and recipient countries are going to have other agendas (it's 21st century politics) but if all areas can secure accountability it would work. That's where the UN come in!

Well, I'm afraid it's already underway. The IMF has just ok'd a $100 million loan (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1420120920100114) contingent on the government slashing (http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/what_haiti_is_owed) public spending and public sector wages and increasing prices of electricity and other services. While at the same time the American Enterprise Institute is suggesting the presence of U.S. marines in Haiti should be used to ensure that "Haiti's gangs - particularly those loyal to ousted President Jean Bertrand Aristide - are suppressed." (http://www.defensestudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/cds-issue-alert-haiti-1-15.pdf) What that actually means is that Fanmi Lavalas and other progressive groups in Haiti associated with them who would resist U.S./I.M.F. politico-economic proscriptions should be crushed. That would also almost certainly involve further funding and arming of the Tonton Macoutes and giving them a carte blanche.

And it's all being driven by barely latent racism; the Robertson comments above just being the most noxious example. Equally dreadful, but far, far more influential commentators such as David Brooks have claimed that the reason the earthquake has been so destructive is because of "progress resistant cultural influences" (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/opinion/15brooks.html) (incidentally, what a ****ing hilarious attempt at trying not to sound racist whilst saying something incredibly racist). And the same absolutely nonsense stories that popped up during Hurricane Katrina about looting (that's just people taking what they need to survive, aye?) and other acts of 'savagery' are coming up again (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/15/2793056.htm).

[Betty Boop]

Satan Writes a Letter to Pat Robertson

By Satan
Dear Pat Robertson,

January 16, 2010 -- "Star Tribune" - -I know that you know that all press is good press, so I appreciate the shout-out. And you make God look like a big mean bully who kicks people when they are down, so I'm all over that action. But when you say that Haiti has made a pact with me, it is totally humiliating. I may be evil incarnate, but I'm no welcher.

The way you put it, making a deal with me leaves folks desperate and impoverished. Sure, in the afterlife, but when I strike bargains with people, they first get something here on earth -- glamour, beauty, talent, wealth, fame, glory, a golden fiddle.

Those Haitians have nothing, and I mean nothing. And that was before the earthquake. Haven't you seen "Crossroads"? Or "Damn Yankees"?

If I had a thing going with Haiti, there'd be lots of banks, skyscrapers, SUVs, exclusive night clubs, Botox -- that kind of thing.

An 80 percent poverty rate is so not my style. Nothing against it -- I'm just saying: Not how I roll.

You're doing great work, Pat, and I don't want to clip your wings -- just, come on, you're making me look bad. And not the good kind of bad. Keep blaming God. That's working. But leave me out of it, please. Or we may need to renegotiate your own contract.

Best, Satan

LILY COYLE, MINNEAPOLIS

[Woody1985]

Nick Griffin sticks the boot in. :bitchy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8462717.stm

What a pratt. Especially the point about gritting the roads. :bitchy:

[hibsbollah]

Amazing gesture by the Senegalese:thumbsup:, probably in recognition of Haiti as a destination for African rebel slaves...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8463921.stm
Senegal's president says he will offer free land and "repatriation" to people affected by the earthquake in Haiti.
President Abdoulaye Wade said Haitians were sons and daughters of Africa since Haiti was founded by slaves, including some thought to be from Senegal.

"The president is offering voluntary repatriation to any Haitian that wants to return to their origin," said Mr Wade's spokesman, Mamadou Bemba Ndiaye.

Tuesday's earthquake killed tens of thousands and left many more homeless.

Buildings have been reduced to rubble, the distribution of aid is slow, and people have been flooding out of the devastated capital, Port-au-Prince.
"Senegal is ready to offer them parcels of land - even an entire region. It all depends on how many Haitians come," Mr Bemba Ndiaye said.

"If it's just a few individuals, then we will likely offer them housing or small pieces of land. If they come en masse we are ready to give them a region."

The spokesman emphasised that if a region was given, it would be in a fertile part of the country rather than in its parched deserts, the Associated Press news agency reported.

[Dashing Bob S]

I hear that the Scottish Government have chipped in £250,000. That should help sort things out.

[khib70]

Well, I'm afraid it's already underway. The IMF has just ok'd a $100 million loan (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1420120920100114) contingent on the government slashing (http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/what_haiti_is_owed) public spending and public sector wages and increasing prices of electricity and other services. While at the same time the American Enterprise Institute is suggesting the presence of U.S. marines in Haiti should be used to ensure that "Haiti's gangs - particularly those loyal to ousted President Jean Bertrand Aristide - are suppressed." (http://www.defensestudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/cds-issue-alert-haiti-1-15.pdf) What that actually means is that Fanmi Lavalas and other progressive groups in Haiti associated with them who would resist U.S./I.M.F. politico-economic proscriptions should be crushed. That would also almost certainly involve further funding and arming of the Tonton Macoutes and giving them a carte blanche.

And it's all being driven by barely latent racism; the Robertson comments above just being the most noxious example. Equally dreadful, but far, far more influential commentators such as David Brooks have claimed that the reason the earthquake has been so destructive is because of "progress resistant cultural influences" (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/opinion/15brooks.html) (incidentally, what a ****ing hilarious attempt at trying not to sound racist whilst saying something incredibly racist). And the same absolutely nonsense stories that popped up during Hurricane Katrina about looting (that's just people taking what they need to survive, aye?) and other acts of 'savagery' are coming up again (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/15/2793056.htm).
I wondered when the usual anti-US suspects would surface to exploit this appalling catastrophe for political point scoring. You guys never disappoint.

America has committed huge resources to relief work. In the current situation that also implies a certain amount of policing. As the major power in the region, this is as it should be.

As for the looters - when did money from wrecked banks, hi-fi's and other consumer electronics become edible? Even the looting of food destroys any attempts at distribution on the basis of need. Those young, fit and tooled-up enough will get the loot, while the old, the injured and the children starve.
That's why decisive action is needed to restore some form of order - anarchy feeds noone but the anarchists.

At a time like this, the world should be united in pitching in to help out, and divisive political sniping is totally irrelevant to the situation, not to mention distinctly unhelpful.

I wonder how long it will take for someone to post some cynical jibe about the Israeli field hospitals set up in Haiti.

Firemen from LA, and Leeds, and soldiers from a dozen countries, along with a multinational multitude of volunteer aid workers are doing their best to respond to one of the great humanitarian challenges of our times. I don't know which, if any of them, have a hidden agenda. Right now I don't care, and neither should you.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I wondered when the usual anti-US suspects would surface to exploit this appalling catastrophe for political point scoring. You guys never disappoint.

Right, that's not only monumentally stupid, it's ****ing low.

Attempting any analysis of why these events have occurred and why the response may not be absolutely preferable becomes an attempt to exploit a catastrophe for political ends or is in some way disrespectful? That any sort of politics has to be suspended as soon as a disaster strikes even though politics is what has caused the disaster to be as destructive as it has been? Do you genuinely believe that? It's analytic and it's absolutely necessary.

Political opportunism is attempting to tie the relief effort into creating a preferred economic, poitical and social system, not any form of criticism of the lead-up or response. That's just a dupe's way of thinking.


America has committed huge resources to relief work. In the current situation that also implies a certain amount of policing. As the major power in the region, this is as it should be.

No doubt.

But that does not mean that aid should be diverted to the Dominican Republic because they're desperately flying in Marines and the 82nd Airborne (despite Red Cross assertions that "We haven't had any security issues at all"). Nor does it mean that the airport should be closed down for three hours while Hilary ****ing Clinton makes a none-more-pointless public appearance.

On both counts, why?


As for the looters - when did money from wrecked banks, hi-fi's and other consumer electronics become edible? Even the looting of food destroys any attempts at distribution on the basis of need. Those young, fit and tooled-up enough will get the loot, while the old, the injured and the children starve.
That's why decisive action is needed to restore some form of order - anarchy feeds noone but the anarchists.

You don't 'loot' food that's going to be distributed. There's no 'looting' of distribution points. That word really should be banned.

How do you know that the 'young and fit' wouldn't then distribute food around their family groups and others? Peaople are more than capable of cooperation (http://haitianalysis.com/2010/1/17/ips-as-aid-efforts-flounder-haitians-rely-on-each-other), you know...

And 'anarchists'? What?


At a time like this, the world should be united in pitching in to help out, and divisive political sniping is totally irrelevant to the situation, not to mention distinctly unhelpful.

I wonder how long it will take for someone to post some cynical jibe about the Israeli field hospitals set up in Haiti.

Jesus, it gets worse and worse. You've brought it up, no-one else. Again, really, really low.

[khib70]

Right, that's not only monumentally stupid, it's ****ing low.

Attempting any analysis of why these events have occurred and why the response may not be absolutely preferable becomes an attempt to exploit a catastrophe for political ends or is in some way disrespectful? That any sort of politics has to be suspended as soon as a disaster strikes even though politics is what has caused the disaster to be as destructive as it has been? Do you genuinely believe that? It's analytic and it's absolutely necessary.

These events have occurred because of a shift in the Caribbean tectonic plate. I suspect the US lacks the capability to cause this.
Political opportunism is attempting to tie the relief effort into creating a preferred economic, poitical and social system, not any form of criticism of the lead-up or response. That's just a dupe's way of thinking.
Nope. Political opportunism is distorting a huge US relief effort into some kind of military takeover, or an attempt to reestablish the Tonton Macoutes


No doubt.

But that does not mean that aid should be diverted to the Dominican Republic because they're desperately flying in Marines and the 82nd Airborne (despite Red Cross assertions that "We haven't had any security issues at all"). Nor does it mean that the airport should be closed down for three hours while Hilary ****ing Clinton makes a none-more-pointless public appearance.

There clearly are security issues, as pointed out by a wide range of organisations in today's press coverage. Hilary strutting her stuff is annoying, if predictable, but hardly an indictment of the US relief effort.

On both counts, why?



You don't 'loot' food that's going to be distributed. There's no 'looting' of distribution points. That word really should be banned.

How do you know that the 'young and fit' wouldn't then distribute food around their family groups and others? Peaople are more than capable of cooperation (http://haitianalysis.com/2010/1/17/ips-as-aid-efforts-flounder-haitians-rely-on-each-other), you know...

And 'anarchists'? What?

Naive, to say the least. People are also capable of greed, selfishness and a total disregard for their fellow humans. If you think these guys raking through the ruins are part of some spontaneous community initiative then you're more naive than most.



Jesus, it gets worse and worse. You've brought it up, no-one else. Again, really, really low.
Fair enough - couldn't resist it. Sorry

Your timing just basically seems a bit wrong to me.

[LiverpoolHibs]

These events have occurred because of a shift in the Caribbean tectonic plate. I suspect the US lacks the capability to cause this.

I'll refer you to the Peter Hallward article I posted earlier if you think that natural disasters strike evenly and equally everywhere regardless of socio-economic factors.


Nope. Political opportunism is distorting a huge US relief effort into some kind of military takeover, or an attempt to reestablish the Tonton Macoutes

At no point did I say the U.S. were going to take over Haiti militarily or re-establish the Tonton Macoutes. You're awfully fond of misrepresentation.

I linked to an article by the very influential (I'm sure you'll agree) American Enterprise Institute think-tank showing what they believe shpould take place. Look at the tenses used, if nothing else; 'would' and 'should', no 'will'.

The only thing I said has happened is that an IMF loan has been agreed contingent upon consumer price increases, wage cuts and cuts in public spending. That's a fact, but apparently one that no-one is allowed to discuss lest we're seen to be disrespecting the dead. Lunacy.

[tony higgins]

Looks a bit racist on America,s part.

Lets drop aid out of a helicopter and have a film crew showing the poor sods running after it.

[khib70]

I'll refer you to the Peter Hallward article I posted earlier if you think that natural disasters strike evenly and equally everywhere regardless of socio-economic factors.



At no point did I say the U.S. were going to take over Haiti militarily or re-establish the Tonton Macoutes. You're awfully fond of misrepresentation.

I linked to an article by the very influential (I'm sure you'll agree) American Enterprise Institute think-tank showing what they believe shpould take place. Look at the tenses used, if nothing else; 'would' and 'should', no 'will'.

The only thing I said has happened is that an IMF loan has been agreed contingent upon consumer price increases, wage cuts and cuts in public spending. That's a fact, but apparently one that no-one is allowed to discuss lest we're seen to be disrespecting the dead. Lunacy.
A natural disaster is a natural disaster. Of course the amount of damage done and even the death toll will be affected by socio-economic factors, but an earthquake of that magnitude is going to cause huge suffering in even the most economically and politically stable of countries.

The US has a huge role to play whether you like it or not. I assume that you're not advocating a complete laissez-faire approach to regional natural disasters. The fact is that the anti-American lobby just can't help themselves, as articulately pointed out by David Aaronovitch in the "Times" today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article6992963.ece
Not your favourite journalist, probably, but he's on the money here. Anyway, people keep firing Guardian links at me, so it's payback time:greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

A natural disaster is a natural disaster. Of course the amount of damage done and even the death toll will be affected by socio-economic factors, but an earthquake of that magnitude is going to cause huge suffering in even the most economically and politically stable of countries.

No, an earthquake is an earthquake but a natural disaster is not a natural disaster. To quote another article;

Why were 60 percent of the buildings in Port-au-Prince shoddily constructed and unsafe in normal circumstances, according to the city's mayor? Why are there no building regulations in a city that sits on a fault line? Why has Port-au-Prince swelled from a small town of 50,000 in the 1950s to a population of 2 million desperately poor people today? Why was the state completely overwhelmed by the disaster?

Or to provide a comparison. Why it is that a 7.0 could hit San Francisco in 1989 and kill 69 people but a 7.0 earthquake can hit Haiti in 2010 and kill upwards of 100,000 people?

If they aren't too disrespectful questions to ask...

I mean, imagine not trying to bring politics into this.


The US has a huge role to play whether you like it or not. I assume that you're not advocating a complete laissez-faire approach to regional natural disasters. The fact is that the anti-American lobby just can't help themselves, as articulately pointed out by David Aaronovitch in the "Times" today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article6992963.ece

Not your favourite journalist, probably, but he's on the money here. Anyway, people keep firing Guardian links at me, so it's payback time:greengrin

At no point did I say that the U.S. should not be involved in the relief effort, that's completely beside the point.

As is the typically facile Aaronovitch article.

[khib70]

No, an earthquake is an earthquake but a natural disaster is not a natural disaster. To quote another article;

Why were 60 percent of the buildings in Port-au-Prince shoddily constructed and unsafe in normal circumstances, according to the city's mayor? Why are there no building regulations in a city that sits on a fault line? Why has Port-au-Prince swelled from a small town of 50,000 in the 1950s to a population of 2 million desperately poor people today? Why was the state completely overwhelmed by the disaster?

Or to provide a comparison. Why it is that a 7.0 could hit San Francisco in 1989 and kill 69 people but a 7.0 earthquake can hit Haiti in 2010 and kill upwards of 100,000 people?

If they aren't too disrespectful questions to ask...

I mean, imagine not trying to bring politics into this.



At no point did I say that the U.S. should not be involved in the relief effort, that's completely beside the point.

As is the typically facile Aaronovitch article.
Actually the article is precisely to the point. You're just indulging in the kind of ad hominem thing with DA that you accuse me of with the Guardian. You may disagree with it, but its not irrelevant.

There undoubtedly are political and economic reasons why the infrastructure of Haiti was crap, though not necessarily the ones you put forward. My point was that now is not the time to start grandstanding on US imperialism in the Caribbean. Let's get the bodies out of the rubble first, eh?

And I'm not accusing you of any lack of humanitarian concern here - you obviously feel the horror of this as much as I do. Let's do the rescuing and the feeding first and sort out root causes later

[LiverpoolHibs]

Actually the article is precisely to the point. You're just indulging in the kind of ad hominem thing with DA that you accuse me of with the Guardian. You may disagree with it, but its not irrelevant.

There undoubtedly are political and economic reasons why the infrastructure of Haiti was crap, though not necessarily the ones you put forward. My point was that now is not the time to start grandstanding on US imperialism in the Caribbean. Let's get the bodies out of the rubble first, eh?

And I'm not accusing you of any lack of humanitarian concern here - you obviously feel the horror of this as much as I do. Let's do the rescuing and the feeding first and sort out root causes later

Argh, but my entire point is that the relief effort itself is political. It's not just the root causes, it's the ongoing cementing of the policies that caused the extent of the disaster within the relief effort.

It wasn't an attack on Aaronovitch (though I'll not pretend I don't think he's a dreadful eejit), it genuinely has little relevance to what I've been saying as far as I can see. If I was going to do an ad hominem I'd call him a willfull contrarian or an incessant dullard who's never happier than when acting as a running dog for imperialism. :wink:

[khib70]

Argh, but my entire point is that the relief effort itself is political. It's not just the root causes, it's the ongoing cementing of the policies that caused the extent of the disaster within the relief effort.

It wasn't an attack on Aaronovitch (though I'll not pretend I don't think he's a dreadful eejit), it genuinely has little relevance to what I've been saying as far as I can see. If I was going to do an ad hominem I'd call him a willfull contrarian or an incessant dullard who's never happier than when acting as a running dog for imperialism. :wink:
Bazza! That's my job!:greengrin

But, seriously, how would you have a non-political relief effort? Some would argue that one clearly led by the UN would fulfill that brief. However, the local UN organisation, and the in-country peacekeeping force were devastated by the earthquake. Only the US has the resources to overcome the lack of infrastructure, and restore enough order to facilitate the equitable distribution of relief.

And I'm not for a moment excusing the arrogant and silly closure of the airport to facilitate Hilary's walkabout. Even the most ardent advocate of the US could hardly disagree that they do heavy-handed and tactless pretty well. They are, for now, the only game in town, though.

I repeat - there's a lot of debate mileage in the whole US/Haiti/Aristide thing. And we will have it, I hope. I just think now is a bit early.

[lapsedhibee]

Trivial question for those in the know:

Why do BBC channels consistently refer to the Haitian capital as Port O'Prince, whereas Ch4 consistently refers to it as Port O'Prance?

[Peevemor]

Trivial question for those in the know:

Why do BBC channels consistently refer to the Haitian capital as Port O'Prince, whereas Ch4 consistently refers to it as Port O'Prance?

The capital is Port-au-Prince which is a French name (French being one of Haiti's official languages). The French pronunciation of Prince is 'prance'

[lapsedhibee]

The capital is Port-au-Prince which is a French name (French being one of Haiti's official languages). The French pronunciation of Prince is 'prance'

Yep, ta, I know that. But what's the answer to the question? :dunno:

[lyonhibs]

Yep, ta, I know that. But what's the answer to the question? :dunno:

If that's how they are both referring to it in print, then they are both wrong.

For pronunciation, see Peevmor's post. Channel 4 are right, and some researcher at the BBC needs to get his jotters.

Unless you're on the wind-up of course..........................

[LiverpoolHibs]

Yep, ta, I know that. But what's the answer to the question? :dunno:

It's the old, and pretty much unresolved, Don Juan argument - innit.

[Mibbes Aye]

The capital is Port-au-Prince which is a French name (French being one of Haiti's official languages). The French pronunciation of Prince is 'prance'

Typical French poofery.

"Prance" :rolleyes:

[lapsedhibee]

If that's how they are both referring to it in print, then they are both wrong.

For pronunciation, see Peevmor's post. Channel 4 are right, and some researcher at the BBC needs to get his jotters.

Unless you're on the wind-up of course..........................

Leeong, they're not referring in print - they're broadcasters, not newspapers.

Why are Ch 4 right? They're not French and they're not broadcasting in Franceland.

Clearly the BBC are sucking up to Americans, who like to pronounce as they see. Conspiracy! :grr:

[Peevemor]

The BBC have a department which tell their presenters how to pronounce foreign words.

How times change! Who remembers when Ayax were Aidjax?

Angela Rippon started it all with her "Joshua N(tongueclick)komo antics. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Angela Rippon started it all with her "Joshua N(tongueclick)komo antics. :greengrin

Preferred Pamela Stephenson's "Moo'gaaby" :greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

Bazza! That's my job!:greengrin

But, seriously, how would you have a non-political relief effort? Some would argue that one clearly led by the UN would fulfill that brief. However, the local UN organisation, and the in-country peacekeeping force were devastated by the earthquake. Only the US has the resources to overcome the lack of infrastructure, and restore enough order to facilitate the equitable distribution of relief.

I'm not sure in what sense you're using 'non-political' there.

I was referring to the fact that the details of the I.M.F. loan (which is part of the relief effort) requires the further implementation of the policies that have made the earthquake as destructive as it has been.


And I'm not for a moment excusing the arrogant and silly closure of the airport to facilitate Hilary's walkabout. Even the most ardent advocate of the US could hardly disagree that they do heavy-handed and tactless pretty well. They are, for now, the only game in town, though.

They are not the only game in town.

On the 'security situation', Dr. Evan Lyon of Partners in Health an American non-profit medical organisation deployed to Haiti:

One thing that I think is really important for people to understand is that misinformation and rumors and, I think at the bottom of the issue, racism has slowed the recovery efforts of this hospital. Security issues over the last forty-eight hours have been our—quote “security issues” over the last forty-eight hours have been our leading concern. And there are no security issues. I’ve been with my Haitian colleagues. I’m staying at a friend’s house in Port-au-Prince. We’re working for the Ministry of Public Health for the direction of this hospital as volunteers. But I’m living and moving with friends. We’ve been circulating throughout the city until 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning every night, evacuating patients, moving materials. There’s no UN guards. There’s no US military presence. There’s no Haitian police presence. And there’s also no violence. There is no insecurity.


I repeat - there's a lot of debate mileage in the whole US/Haiti/Aristide thing. And we will have it, I hope. I just think now is a bit early.

There certainly is, but at no point have I brought up Aristide or the coup (not that I think it would be 'too early' for someone to do so).

[hibsbollah]

Meanwhile, Gordon Brown has been busy. Along with The Sun, he has successfully petitioned Simon Cowell to release a charity single to raise funds for the rioting unwashed. Well Done Gordon!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8471625.stm

[LiverpoolHibs]

Meanwhile, Gordon Brown has been busy. Along with The Sun, he has successfully petitioned Simon Cowell to release a charity single to raise funds for the rioting unwashed. Well Done Gordon!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8471625.stm

Oh Christ, what the **** is wrong with these people?!

I hope someone's keeping an eye on Richard Curtis...

[Andy74]

Oh Christ, what the **** is wrong with these people?!



It could just be a genuine attempt to try and raise a bit of cash to help people out??

[lapsedhibee]

Oh Christ, what the **** is wrong with these people?!


:agree: If they'd wanted to do the thing properly, they would have arranged for the USA to cause the earthquake in early December, so that the single would have been no 1 at Christmas. :wink:

[LiverpoolHibs]

It could just be a genuine attempt to try and raise a bit of cash to help people out??

I don't doubt that it will be well-intentioned at some level - although I don't think there's anything odd in being suspicious of the motivations of the Sun and Simon Cowell - and that it will probably helpfully raise a bit of money for people that are in desperate need of it. But I have absolutely no idea why it needs to take place.

Maybe instead of releasing ego-massaging charity singles someone could publicly state that we give Haiti what it is owed, rather than reactive charity and strings-attached loans.

I also don't doubt that it will take levels of self-satisfaction, self-congratulation and self-publicity to quite incredible levels.

---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------


:agree: If they'd wanted to do the thing properly, they would have arranged for the USA to cause the earthquake in early December, so that the single would have been no 1 at Christmas. :wink:

Wut?

[HibeeEmma]

The fact "Gordon Brown" and "The Sun" are in the same sentence shows the state of British politics at the moment.

The left wing aid assistance policies are there for moral obligations to give aid so it is political -to keep the UK in the "big powers" of the world.

Gordon Brown seems to think he has done something right in the field of international development that he is spending his time on this rubbish as opposed to assessing new strategies for aid to work. He should be looking to reduce the $890 million which Haiti currently owe to IMF, Inter-American Development Bank etc etc.

Can't the government use hindsight as a benefit and look to the debt accumulated during the structural adjustment programmes of the 80s in relation to where these countries are now in the development reports from the UN. :grr:

Although- maybe all countries are in negotiations over this very thing and they will clear the debts and rebuild for the future. Perhaps its just the media who are choosing to focus on such rubbish. Media - :grr:

[lapsedhibee]

Wut?

Sure I more or less read on here that the earthquake was all of the USA's making. Anyway, irrespective of the genesis of the disaster, agree with you that its recovery could be as well done by western states as by TV slebs and individual donations/purchases. Wouldn't overly mind if the Scotland government chipped in £50m (that's a tenner a head) rather than the so-far-reported promised £250k (that's 5p a head). Not so much because I personally "owe" it to Haitians, but because it would be the right thing to do in the current circumstances.

[hibsbollah]

It could just be a genuine attempt to try and raise a bit of cash to help people out??


Its not the raising of money that I think is objectionable, its the shameless lack of dignity, and why the Prime Minister thinks celebrity muckraking and organising charidy singles are part of his job description. Surely, since hes always trying to paint himself as some sort of economic guru, there might be some financial instruments he could use to lessen the debt burden on Haiti, as Emma suggests?

Involving that newspaper and that man suggests its all about seedy publicity.

[khib70]

I don't doubt that it will be well-intentioned at some level - although I don't think there's anything odd in being suspicious of the motivations of the Sun and Simon Cowell - and that it will probably helpfully raise a bit of money for people that are in desperate need of it. But I have absolutely no idea why it needs to take place.

Maybe instead of releasing ego-massaging charity singles someone could publicly state that we give Haiti what it is owed, rather than reactive charity and strings-attached loans.

I also don't doubt that it will take levels of self-satisfaction, self-congratulation and self-publicity to quite incredible levels.

---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------



Wut?
Lighten up:wink:. I f***ing hate Simon Cowell, and the Sun. And I'm not so keen on Gordo either. But will the food this money buys be any less nutritious, or the medicines less effective. I don't think so. As I've said before, let's rescue the trapped, bury the dead, and feed the living before we start the political stuff.

And, as eloquently put here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article6995750.ece
Certainly, someone owes Haiti big time. But it's not us.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Sure I more or less read on here that the earthquake was all of the USA's making.

I don't think you did...


Anyway, irrespective of the genesis of the disaster, agree with you that its recovery could be as well done by western states as by TV slebs and individual donations/purchases. Wouldn't overly mind if the Scotland government chipped in £50m (that's a tenner a head) rather than the so-far-reported promised £250k (that's 5p a head). Not so much because I personally "owe" it to Haitians, but because it would be the right thing to do in the current circumstances.

It's not to do with you 'personally' owing anything, except in a very abstract sense.

[lapsedhibee]

It's not to do with you 'personally' owing anything, except in a very abstract sense.

Bit yammish to maintain that Haiti is owed something but that no individuals actually owe anything.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Lighten up:wink:. I f***ing hate Simon Cowell, and the Sun. And I'm not so keen on Gordo either. But will the food this money buys be any less nutritious, or the medicines less effective. I don't think so. As I've said before, let's rescue the trapped, bury the dead, and feed the living before we start the political stuff.

And I've still not worked out why anyone would think that. I don't think a discussion on a football messageboard about the causes of the devastation is holding up the relief effort.


And, as eloquently put here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article6995750.ece
Certainly, someone owes Haiti big time. But it's not us.

Firstly, I didn't say it was 'us', I was speaking in general terms.

Secondly, we as a nation are very high up in the I.M.F. voting board - the joint fourth most powerful nation. So we are responsible in a pretty major way for the creation of debt and the policies that have led to the devastation and are not exonerated by French imperialism; although they really should be strong-armed into paying no-strings reparations to Haiti both for their conduct during colonial rule and for the profiteering over Haitian reparations (ha!) to slave-owners and the French state after independence.

'We' are utterly complicit in the impoverishment of Haiti, it's just that some others are even moreso.


Bit yammish to maintain that Haiti is owed something but that no individuals actually owe anything.

No, no it isn't - it's how economics work.

[lapsedhibee]

No, no it isn't - it's how economics work.

FFS This is a hobo messageboard - no-one here understands how economics works. :grr:

[LiverpoolHibs]

FFS This is a hobo messageboard - no-one here understands how economics works. :grr:

:tee hee:

[LiverpoolHibs]

This is a fantastic article.

Andy Kershaw - Stop Treating These People Like Savages (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/andy-kershaw-stop-treating-these-people-like-savages-1874218.html)

[hibsbollah]

This is a fantastic article.

Andy Kershaw - Stop Treating These People Like Savages (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/andy-kershaw-stop-treating-these-people-like-savages-1874218.html)

Very good article. Nice to see Matt Frei getting a verbal kicking, he's right up there with Jeremy Bowen as 'most gormless journalist ever'.

[Betty Boop]

I wonder if there would have been the same problems getting aid to the Haitians, if this had been a white country? This reminds me of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

[khib70]

I wonder if there would have been the same problems getting aid to the Haitians, if this had been a white country? This reminds me of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
Oh dear, not the race card. Do you have any actual evidence that the aid programme has been deliberately slow or inefficient on purely racial grounds. It's a fact of life, though not necessarily a pleasant one, that "white" countries by and large have better infrastructure and emergency planning procedures in place. It looks to me like there has been a massive mobilisation of aid resources in a fairly short time from all over the world. It's likely that the sheer size of this effort has proved to be the stumbling block in terms of coordination and organisation.

The majority of those who have arrived are US servicemen, many of whom are black themselves, and, given the large Haitian exile presence in the US, some of whom may actually be of Haitian origin.

And for LH's benefit - there clearly is a security problem of some kind in certain areas, but given the scale of the disaster, and the pre-existing poverty and lack of infrastructure, a surprisingly small one. Even someone as cynical of the BBC as myself would however give more credence to live reports from people on the ground for any media outlet than the opinions of a disc jockey posting from his Islington flat to Islington's parish magazine.

[hibsbollah]

the opinions of a disc jockey posting from his Islington flat to Islington's parish magazine.

To be fair to Andy Kershaw, he has a fair knowledge of the island having promoted its music quite heavily in the past. I think his assessment of the way the media is covering it is quite accurate. He echoes one of your previous posts in fact, when he calls for getting food in as quickly as possible and leaving the theoretical discussions til later.

[khib70]

To be fair to Andy Kershaw, he has a fair knowledge of the island having promoted its music quite heavily in the past. I think his assessment of the way the media is covering it is quite accurate. He echoes one of your previous posts in fact, when he calls for getting food in as quickly as possible and leaving the theoretical discussions til later.

Accept what you say, and have in fact always been a bit of a fan of Kershaw. I can see where he's coming from, but he seems to be exaggerating the situation based on no more current knowledge than you or I have access to via the media.

We're all likely to disagree on Aristide, the relationship between the US and Haiti etc - and I'm sure the discussions will be as heated, as wide-ranging (and as enjoyable) as on every other topic:greengrin For now, l think we can all agree that meeting the immediate needs of the victims is priority no1.

[hibsbollah]

Accept what you say, and have in fact always been a bit of a fan of Kershaw. I can see where he's coming from, but he seems to be exaggerating the situation based on no more current knowledge than you or I have access to via the media.

We're all likely to disagree on Aristide, the relationship between the US and Haiti etc - and I'm sure the discussions will be as heated, as wide-ranging (and as enjoyable) as on every other topic:greengrin For now, l think we can all agree that meeting the immediate needs of the victims is priority no1.

I dont have any opinion on individuals like Aristide or Duvalier to be honest...i find the whole 'historical reasons behind it' thing a lot more interesting, your link to the times report an excellent case in point. The French definitely have a lot to answer for.

[khib70]

I dont have any opinion on individuals like Aristide or Chevalier to be honest...i find the whole 'historical reasons behind it' thing a lot more interesting, your link to the times report an excellent case in point. The French definitely have a lot to answer for.
That would be my take on it, more or less, because the reason that vile (Duvalier) or corrupt (Aristide) leaders were able to dominate for so long, has its roots in the appalling economic shackles placed on Haiti by the French in return for the loss of their slavery-driven sugar trade.

The Times article opened my eyes too. I had no idea just how draconian the reparations to France were, or how arrogant and dismissive the French attitudes even in recent times.

[McIntosh]

That would be my take on it, more or less, because the reason that vile (Duvalier) or corrupt (Aristide) leaders were able to dominate for so long, has its roots in the appalling economic shackles placed on Haiti by the French in return for the loss of their slavery-driven sugar trade.

The Times article opened my eyes too. I had no idea just how draconian the reparations to France were, or how arrogant and dismissive the French attitudes even in recent times.

:top marksWell said, spoken for truth. This post by Sir Hilary Beckles I think was the basis for The Times article:

http://haitisheri1804.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/haiti-the-hate-and-quake-by-sir-hilary-beckles/ (http://haitisheri1804.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/haiti-the-hate-and-quake-by-sir-hilary-beckles/)

[khib70]

:top marksWell said, spoken for truth. This post by Sir Hilary Beckles I think was the basis for The Times article:

http://haitisheri1804.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/haiti-the-hate-and-quake-by-sir-hilary-beckles/ (http://haitisheri1804.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/haiti-the-hate-and-quake-by-sir-hilary-beckles/)
Thanks. Excellent stuff from Sir Hilary - would recommend it for anyone looking at the background to the situation in Haiti. While all colonial powers were cruel and exploitative to some extent, the French record is particularly disturbing and lasting.

[Dashing Bob S]

I've refrained from commenting properly on the Haitian disaster, as I've been a frequent visitor to the country over the last ten years on business (I source and procure pieces of art for private and public collectors), and I feel very saddened that this luckless country has been dealt yet another bad hand.

I don't think I've experienced as much personal anger towards anyone in recent years as I have towards that American fool who made the 'pact with the devil' -I can't bring myself to say his name yet.

I've enjoyed reading the posts on here, basically because the more astute posters have pointed out the negative effects of imperialism (in this case French, but that's almost beside the point as the phenomenon has wrecked the entire region to a greater or lesser extent) on Haitian development, therefore maximising the impact of this crisis.

Unfortunately, Haitians also suffer the consequences of this in the form of racism from other parts of the Caribbean, notably the nearby Dominican Republic, where many Haitian workers are employed in the building trade. They are looked down upon as French speakers who call them 'Africans' and 'cannibals'. This takes on ludicrous heights as the most African-looking (ie: black) Dominican, can describe the lightest skinned, obviously of European origined Haitian in that way. (This isolation is not limited to the Caribbean, the population of Little Haiti in Miami are totally cut off socially and culturally from the rest of the city.)

This sense of isolation and the subsequent demonisation only compounds the problem, as does the west's fascination with Haiti as portraying the country almost exclusively as being voodoo and black magic.

France's debt to this county is immense; it's time they started discharging it.

[Betty Boop]

Ten Americans have been arrested trying to smuggle children from Haiti, to the Dominican Republic. Adoptions have been suspended in Haiti after fears of child trafficking.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/31/american-baptists-arrested-taking-children