China Executes Briton Akmal Shaikh

[hibiedude]

A British man convicted of drug smuggling in China has been executed, The execution took place despite repeated calls from his family and the British government for clemenc.

Mr Shaikh's family made continued calls for leniency right up until the execution deadline, citing his mental state, saying that he suffered from bipolar disorder.

In a statement issued after the execution, the Chinese Embassy said Mr Shaikh's rights "were properly respected and guaranteed" and British concerns were "duly noted and taken into consideration".

He died by lethal injection

My own opinion is something was clearly wrong with this guy and he was duped by ruthless criminal to carry the bag containing the drugs in to the country. But since china carry out 72% of the worlds executions and last year alone they executed 1800 people the appeal was always going to be turned down.

[Phil D. Rolls]

A British man convicted of drug smuggling in China has been executed, The execution took place despite repeated calls from his family and the British government for clemenc.

Mr Shaikh's family made continued calls for leniency right up until the execution deadline, citing his mental state, saying that he suffered from bipolar disorder.

In a statement issued after the execution, the Chinese Embassy said Mr Shaikh's rights "were properly respected and guaranteed" and British concerns were "duly noted and taken into consideration".

He died by lethal injection

My own opinion is something was clearly wrong with this guy and he was duped by ruthless criminal to carry the bag containing the drugs in to the country. But since china carry out 72% of the worlds executions and last year alone they executed 1800 people the appeal was always going to be turned down.

They absolute *******s, and this is a chilling insight into how the world will be once they are running it. The man was clearly ill.

[Betty Boop]

They absolute *******s, and this is a chilling insight into how the world will be once they are running it. The man was clearly ill.

:agree: Welcome to the new world order!

[hibsbollah]

Akmal Shaikh

The subtext is 'he's not really British'. If it was some blonde beauty from bedforshire I think there would be more of an outcry.

[Woody1985]

Akmal Shaikh

The subtext is 'he's not really British'. If it was some blonde beauty from bedforshire I think there would be more of an outcry.

Well why has it been plastered all over the news for days on end with numerous attempts from the government and campaigners to help him out?

I think he probably stood less of a chance because he was British and therefore giving them the chance to stick two fingers up to us and show us that they don't give a **** what we think.

[ArabHibee]

http://www.reprieve.org.uk/akmalshaikh

:hmmm:

[Green Mikey]

They absolute *******s, and this is a chilling insight into how the world will be once they are running it. The man was clearly ill.


:agree: Welcome to the new world order!

I don't think that China's growing world influence will lead to more executions outside of their borders. The Americans have a very dubious record on executing mentally ill prisoners and this has not led to countries that are in their sphere of influence (ie the UK) following suit.

[ArabHibee]

May I point out, and this is only what I have read on tinternet, (see previous post) from what I can see, this bloke was never actually examined and diagnosed as being mentally ill?

[Killiehibbie]

May I point out, and this is only what I have read on tinternet, (see previous post) from what I can see, this bloke was never actually examined and diagnosed as being mentally ill?

Who knows what his mental state was when he got caught but I think waiting on them carrying out sentence must mess your head right up.

[hibiedude]

He was only told yesterday he was going to executed today according to family members' there is something clearly wrong with this decision some kind off action must be taken by our government because this guy had mental issues that weren't even taken in to consideration.

[Green Mikey]

May I point out, and this is only what I have read on tinternet, (see previous post) from what I can see, this bloke was never actually examined and diagnosed as being mentally ill?

The Chinese did not allow an examination to take place. He could have been mentally ill but the Chinese disregarded this possibility and executed him anyway.

[hibsbollah]

Well why has it been plastered all over the news for days on end with numerous attempts from the government and campaigners to help him out?

I think he probably stood less of a chance because he was British and therefore giving them the chance to stick two fingers up to us and show us that they don't give a **** what we think.

IMO The Govt would have done more pressurised by a hysterical media if that had been the case, but I suppose we'll never know.

Interesting listening to the UN representative saying that the death penalty is legal under international law, but only in cases where the accused acts have resulted in death. If so, there is a case for sanctions, but of course no-one will have the balls due to China's economic power:bitchy:

[Woody1985]

IMO The Govt would have done more pressurised by a hysterical media if that had been the case, but I suppose we'll never know.

Interesting listening to the UN representative saying that the death penalty is legal under international law, but only in cases where the accused acts have resulted in death. If so, there is a case for sanctions, but of course no-one will have the balls due to China's economic power:bitchy:

:agree:

I wonder if we can break up countries based on their monopoly!

Seriously though, without trying to hijack the thread, I can see China pretty much just doing what it wants regardless of the consequence.

[ArabHibee]

The Chinese did not allow an examination to take place. He could have been mentally ill but the Chinese disregarded this possibility and executed him anyway.

I know that the Chinese would not allow an examination and I believe that was wrong of them. The point I am trying to make is that (as far as I have read) he was not diagnosed with a mental illness before he was arrested for drug smuggling.

---------- Post added at 12:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 PM ----------


He was only told yesterday he was going to executed today according to family members' there is something clearly wrong with this decision some kind off action must be taken by our government because this guy had mental issues that weren't even taken in to consideration.

Akmal Shaikh’s family arrive in China; mentally ill British national will not be told that he is to die until Monday morning; his execution is scheduled for 10:30am on Tues Dec 29 (http://www.reprieve.org.uk/2009_12_27_trip_for_akmal_shaikh)

Akmal Shaikh’s execution is set for 10.30am on Tuesday morning, Urumqi time (2.30am GMT). The Chinese authorities will not inform Akmal that he is to be executed until Monday morning, just 24 hours beforehand, on “humanitarian grounds”.

[hibiedude]

I know that the Chinese would not allow an examination and I believe that was wrong of them. The point I am trying to make is that (as far as I have read) he was not diagnosed with a mental illness before he was arrested for drug smuggling.

---------- Post added at 12:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 PM ----------



Akmal Shaikh’s family arrive in China; mentally ill British national will not be told that he is to die until Monday morning; his execution is scheduled for 10:30am on Tues Dec 29 (http://www.reprieve.org.uk/2009_12_27_trip_for_akmal_shaikh)

Akmal Shaikh’s execution is set for 10.30am on Tuesday morning, Urumqi time (2.30am GMT). The Chinese authorities will not inform Akmal that he is to be executed until Monday morning, just 24 hours beforehand, on “humanitarian grounds”.

I know this is a different issue but in America death row prisoners go to death cells a week before being executed.

They get time to say there good bye's to family members

In China it appears that when you get you bean's and rice for tea they tell you that tomorrow will be your last day before your execution.

And they dare to speak about humanitarian grounds

[Betty Boop]

IMO The Govt would have done more pressurised by a hysterical media if that had been the case, but I suppose we'll never know.

Interesting listening to the UN representative saying that the death penalty is legal under international law, but only in cases where the accused acts have resulted in death. If so, there is a case for sanctions, but of course no-one will have the balls due to China's economic power:bitchy:

Especially when China and Britain have trade deals of more than 2 billion pounds in the last six months.

[ArabHibee]

I know this is a different issue but in America death row prisoners go to death cells a week before being executed.

They get time to say there good bye's to family members

In China it appears that when you get you bean's and rice for tea they tell you that tomorrow will be your last day before your execution.

And they dare to speak about humanitarian grounds

Not sure about this one though. Would you rather crap yourself for a week or 24 hours?

[hibiedude]

Not sure about this one though. Would you rather crap yourself for a week or 24 hours?

I know what you mean and the answer is NO :bitchy:

As said earlier China carry out 72% of the worlds Executions they cant all be guilty

[Woody1985]

I know what you mean and the answer is NO :bitchy:

As said earlier China carry out 72% of the worlds Executions they cant all be guilty

How can the answer be no if she gave two options?!

Who's to say that they can't all be guilty? Has everyone of their cases been looked at and investigated further?

I actually think that cases like this would make it seem like they have a less than robust judical system so I'd say you're probably right but just like being objective. :greengrin

Also, I think that this 72% being banded around everywhere is making a lot of people jump on the bandwagon and say how terrible China are (not saying they're not). They have around half of the worlds population (IIRC) and a lot of the developed countries don't invoke the death penalty so of course it's going to be the vast majority of them.

[hibiedude]

How can the answer be no if she gave two options?!

Who's to say that they can't all be guilty? Has everyone of their cases been looked at and investigated further?

I actually think that cases like this would make it seem like they have a less than robust judical system so I'd say you're probably right but just like being objective. :greengrin

Also, I think that this 72% being banded around everywhere is making a lot of people jump on the bandwagon and say how terrible China are (not saying they're not). They have around half of the worlds population (IIRC) and a lot of the developed countries don't invoke the death penalty so of course it's going to be the vast majority of them.

Simle the first question was;

Would you rather crap yourself for a week, so my answer was NO

The law of averages say they cant all be guilty china's humanitarian actions over 100's of years say they cant be all guilty.

Even the way this story was reported in china the internet and news coverage doesn't even mention this story.

1989 Massacre in Tiananmen Square tells us they can't all be guilty

The list goes on.

[Woody1985]

Simle the first question was;

Would you rather crap yourself for a week, so my answer was NO

The law of averages say they cant all be guilty china's humanitarian actions over 100's of years say they cant be all guilty.

Even the way this story was reported in china the internet and news coverage doesn't even mention this story.

1989 Massacre in Tiananmen Square tells us they can't all be guilty

The list goes on.

The question ended 'or 24 hours?'...

I actually agree, as I say, I was just being objective. I personally think that some people deserve to die for their crimes but it would seem that China do not take every measure to ensure they are confident of the persons guilt.

[hibiedude]

The question ended 'or 24 hours?'...

I actually agree, as I say, I was just being objective. I personally think that some people deserve to die for their crimes but it would seem that China do not take every measure to ensure they are confident of the persons guilt.

My Mistake none of the options were a good way to leave this planet

[ArabHibee]

The question ended 'or 24 hours?'...

I actually agree, as I say, I was just being objective. I personally think that some people deserve to die for their crimes but it would seem that China do not take every measure to ensure they are confident of the persons guilt.

But in this case he was guilty of drug smuggling.

[Hibs Class]

May I point out, and this is only what I have read on tinternet, (see previous post) from what I can see, this bloke was never actually examined and diagnosed as being mentally ill?

This quote below from a UN rep perhaps lends a little more balance? Had he been properly examined then such a diagnosis may have been made. Regardless of mental state, a 30 minute trial seems a little on the brief side to me. Chinese nationals executed in their hundreds will, more often than not, be sentenced in trials lasting no longer than this, and with less individual scrutiny from the outside world.

"We are informed that the initial conviction was based on a 30-minute hearing which would not seem to indicate due process or effective defence or presentation of evidence.
We are then told that in the appeal requests to present medical evidence, requests to the court that it should appoint an expert to assess Mr Shaikh were all rejected.
So, it's not very encouraging in fact that the Chinese courts were so dismissive of what appears to be at least a strong initial case."

[ArabHibee]

Ok, I'm going to stick my neck out on this one (as per) and highlight some things that people seem to be skirting around, especially the media:

1. The man in question was caught smuggling a fair amount of drugs into China.

2. As far as I have read, he was never diagnosed with a mental problem before he was caught smuggling drugs. And the diagnosis has been from second hand statements, as a doctor has not been able to diagnose him as the Chinese authorities refused this request.

3. If he was as mentally unstable as his family say he was, what was he doing on his own in Poland, then Kyrgyzstan, then Tajikistan and finally to China were he was caught with the suitcase of drugs.

4. How was he able to run a small business if he was that mentally unstable?

5. How easy is it to start acting mentally unstable when you are facing a death sentence in a country which doesn't really listen to reason with any other country in the world?

If you smuggle drugs, you take your chances.

[Mon Dieu4]

Ok, I'm going to stick my neck out on this one (as per) and highlight some things that people seem to be skirting around, especially the media:

1. The man in question was caught smuggling a fair amount of drugs into China.

2. As far as I have read, he was never diagnosed with a mental problem before he was caught smuggling drugs. And the diagnosis has been from second hand statements, as a doctor has not been able to diagnose him as the Chinese authorities refused this request.

3. If he was as mentally unstable as his family say he was, what was he doing on his own in Poland, then Kyrgyzstan, then Tajikistan and finally to China were he was caught with the suitcase of drugs.

4. How was he able to run a small business if he was that mentally unstable?

5. How easy is it to start acting mentally unstable when you are facing a death sentence in a country which doesn't really listen to reason with any other country in the world?

If you smuggle drugs, you take your chances.

I actually agree with you :agree:

[MSK]

Ok, I'm going to stick my neck out on this one (as per) and highlight some things that people seem to be skirting around, especially the media:

1. The man in question was caught smuggling a fair amount of drugs into China.

2. As far as I have read, he was never diagnosed with a mental problem before he was caught smuggling drugs. And the diagnosis has been from second hand statements, as a doctor has not been able to diagnose him as the Chinese authorities refused this request.

3. If he was as mentally unstable as his family say he was, what was he doing on his own in Poland, then Kyrgyzstan, then Tajikistan and finally to China were he was caught with the suitcase of drugs.

4. How was he able to run a small business if he was that mentally unstable?

5. How easy is it to start acting mentally unstable when you are facing a death sentence in a country which doesn't really listen to reason with any other country in the world?

If you smuggle drugs, you take your chances.Its not impossible ..i knew someone who was Bi-Polar & who ran a very successful landscape garden business on his own..

Prob irrelevant to some of your points but im just illustrating that it can be done ..:agree:

[hibsdaft]

not to different to the Gary MacKinnon case imo. Both very hard to call.

[Scouse Hibee]

My post has been deleted, me thinks this board stinks of double standards. Still I'll say one less drug smuggler to worry about.

[ArabHibee]

Its not impossible ..i knew someone who was Bi-Polar & who ran a very successful landscape garden business on his own..

Prob irrelevant to some of your points but im just illustrating that it can be done ..:agree:

Fair enough, I don't know enough about this illness to confirm or deny that. Although, I've been reading some more about this case and other people were classing him as manic depressive.

[MSK]

My post has been deleted, me thinks this board stinks of double standards.Its not double standards ..debate the issue by all means but keep the silly stuff out ..its not a big ask is it ..?

[ArabHibee]

My post has been deleted, me thinks this board stinks of double standards.

I think Scouse does have a point HH. A very similar post is sitting on the thread about the Pope being attacked but has not been removed?

[Scouse Hibee]

Its not double standards ..debate the issue by all means but keep the silly stuff out ..its not a big ask is it ..?

Silly stuff says you, no worse than the recent thread about teenage deaths in a car crash!!!

[MSK]

Silly stuff says you, no worse than the recent thread about teenage deaths in a car crash!!!And where did that thread end up ?

[Scouse Hibee]

And where did that thread end up ?

Err after it was allowed to run and run despite the protests from some people it upset for very personal reasons you mean........................double standards indeed. Anyway I've made my point so that's it from me. Aw the best HH.

[Woody1985]

But in this case he was guilty of drug smuggling.

Yes, he was but there could have been reasons that caused it through no fault of his own. They should have at least made some effort to look into it!

[MSK]

Err after it was allowed to run and run despite the protests from some people it upset for very personal reasons you mean........................double standards indeed.Or after i finished my "real" job then came home ..logged back in & removed it ..!! aye ..

[Scouse Hibee]

Read my edited post above and have a good New Year. Even if the crash thread was allowed to run from 14/11 -17/11 before you logged in after work and removed it! This despite you posting on it earlier hmmmm.

[MSK]

Read my edited post above and have a good New Year.I read it ..

[Betty Boop]

Fair enough, I don't know enough about this illness to confirm or deny that. Although, I've been reading some more about this case and other people were classing him as manic depressive.

I doubt China, ( a country whose history of human rights abuse is disgusting), would care if the guy had been diagnosed with mental illness or not.

[ArabHibee]

Yes, he was but there could have been reasons that caused it through no fault of his own. They should have at least made some effort to look into it!

I'm sure they did, but obviously not to the satisfaction of us Brits. How many times do you think they hear, "oh, I was just asked to carry the suitcase, I didn't know what was in it" statement?

[Hibs Class]

I'm sure they did, but obviously not to the satisfaction of us Brits. How many times do you think they hear, "oh, I was just asked to carry the suitcase, I didn't know what was in it" statement?

Can you explain why you are sure they did?

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree: Welcome to the new world order!

Ain't it the truth.


Akmal Shaikh

The subtext is 'he's not really British'. If it was some blonde beauty from bedforshire I think there would be more of an outcry.

Touch unfair there. Consider Gary McKinnon, white - but has Asperger's. Not exactly a ground swell of public opinion there either. People don't care.


I don't think that China's growing world influence will lead to more executions outside of their borders. The Americans have a very dubious record on executing mentally ill prisoners and this has not led to countries that are in their sphere of influence (ie the UK) following suit.

I think China has set down a marker here about who calls the shots though. Diplomatic intervention would surely have succeeded in other countries.


May I point out, and this is only what I have read on tinternet, (see previous post) from what I can see, this bloke was never actually examined and diagnosed as being mentally ill?

I think there are some obvious signs that he didn't fully comprehend what he was doing. A 50 odd year old man convinced he is about to save the world through his music has issues (not getting at you Bono - honest).

[H18sry]

If you deal, smuggle or use illegal substances you deserve all you get, the rules are in place to deter this practice and if you break the rules you have to expect the punishment of the country you are in.

And as ScouseHibby has said one less trafficker to worry about.

[ArabHibee]

Can you explain why you are sure they did?

Ok, 'sure' probably wasn't the right word to use, but the fact was he was caught with a suitcase containing heroin, no medical confirmation before this confirming that he had mental issues, then lo and behold a barrage of foreigners telling them he is mentally unstable. Wouldn't you think it sounds a bit suss?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Its not impossible ..i knew someone who was Bi-Polar & who ran a very successful landscape garden business on his own..

Prob irrelevant to some of your points but im just illustrating that it can be done ..:agree:

As some of you will know I have some knowledge of this subject.

The point is - as you illustrated - symptoms can come and go. When symptom free, and sometimes in the presence of symptoms, people can function alongside the rest of society.

AH, says the guy has never had a diagnosis. IMO, you don't need a doctor to tell you when someone has gone over the edge. Looking at the man's actions, he seems to have had some bizarre beliefs, which would raise a question about this judgement.

I think if someone had duped a child into smuggling drugs, there would be no question of responsibilty. Sometimes mad people are just as vulnerable.

Finally, it is not that easy to convince people you are mad if you're not.

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------


Ok, 'sure' probably wasn't the right word to use, but the fact was he was caught with a suitcase containing heroin, no medical confirmation before this confirming that he had mental issues, then lo and behold a barrage of foreigners telling them he is mentally unstable. Wouldn't you think it sounds a bit suss?

He thought he was going to China to sign a record contract that would have made him one of the world's biggest stars. I think that puts some question over his capacity to make judgements before he went.

[Tinyclothes]

I agree that the punishment far outweighs the crime in this case but that is what China has decided is suitable so I don't see this execution as anything to get too riled about. I think that most crimes are comitted by mentally unstable people and this case is no different.

[Sylar]

It's a tough one to formulate an opinion on actually.

On one hand, the guy broke the law, in a country which is notorious for it's extreme levels of force, in the deterrence of crime. On the other, there are claims that he wasn't of sound enough mind to comprehend what he was doing.

China's history of negligence of human rights is astounding, and how they can have the audacity to demand we apologise for criticising their actions is on the verge of sabre rattling, using the potential loss of trade agreements as a threat. The death penalty in itself isn't illegal, but usually only exerted when a crime results in the death of another (so I believe anyway, though I stand to be corrected?). China's decision to kill the guy was rash, extreme and a potential catalyst in destroying international relations between the 2 nations - China realise their position of economical power with the rest of the world, and they appear to be using this as a warning against action.

However, this guy has broken the law, with the same knowledge of Chinese justice as anyone else - irrespective of opinion on how harsh their law and treatment of criminals (innocents?) is, it's well known, so criminal activity is doubly risky.

I'm apprehensive of the "mental illness" angle. Similar to ArabHibee, I've not read anywhere about previous diagnosis, and it seems these claims were only made based on family anecdotes, and after the incident took place. It seems quite convenient to be rolled out after his arrest and trial. It seems to be quite a common argument in defense of criminal actions these days: The guy who attacked Berlusconi was "mentally ill"; the woman who attacked the Pope was "mentally ill"; the guy who hacked into the CIA database is mentally ill* and the guy who smuggled vast quantities of drugs into China was "mentally ill". Either it's an easier angle for lawyers to peddle, or we need more asylums to contain the vast increase in headcases who are able to commit fairly high profile crimes! Even if the guy was ill, I agree with a previous poster, that China probably would have executed him regardless.

* I'm not saying I doubt ALL of these cases, as Gary McKinnon has a well documented condition, but surely it must be an easy angle for lawyers to generally exaggerate?

[Hibs Class]

It does seem to be a fact he was caught with a suitcase containing heroin. However, questions remain such as how he came to have that in his possession, the extent to which he was aware he was carrying heroin, the circumstances in which he was persuaded or duped into carrying it, etc., etc.

It remains the case that mental illness would exist before any diagnosis of said illness. It also remains the case that some countries with a respectable human rights record may be able to argue due process, but China has a decades-old reputation for riding roughshod over human rights, and therefore loses the right to any benefit of the doubt.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's a tough one to formulate an opinion on actually.

On one hand, the guy broke the law, in a country which is notorious for it's extreme levels of force, in the deterrence of crime. On the other, there are claims that he wasn't of sound enough mind to comprehend what he was doing.

China's history of negligence of human rights is astounding, and how they can have the audacity to demand we apologise for criticising their actions is on the verge of sabre rattling, using the potential loss of trade agreements as a threat. The death penalty in itself isn't illegal, but usually only exerted when a crime results in the death of another (so I believe anyway, though I stand to be corrected?). China's decision to kill the guy was rash, extreme and a potential catalyst in destroying international relations between the 2 nations - China realise their position of economical power with the rest of the world, and they appear to be using this as a warning against action.

However, this guy has broken the law, with the same knowledge of Chinese justice as anyone else - irrespective of opinion on how harsh their law and treatment of criminals (innocents?) is, it's well known, so criminal activity is doubly risky.

I'm apprehensive of the "mental illness" angle. Similar to ArabHibee, I've not read anywhere about previous diagnosis, and it seems these claims were only made based on family anecdotes, and after the incident took place. It seems quite convenient to be rolled out after his arrest and trial. It seems to be quite a common argument in defense of criminal actions these days: The guy who attacked Berlusconi was "mentally ill"; the woman who attacked the Pope was "mentally ill"; the guy who hacked into the CIA database is mentally ill* and the guy who smuggled vast quantities of drugs into China was "mentally ill". Either it's an easier angle for lawyers to peddle, or we need more asylums to contain the vast increase in headcases who are able to commit fairly high profile crimes! Even if the guy was ill, I agree with a previous poster, that China probably would have executed him regardless.

* I'm not saying I doubt ALL of these cases, as Gary McKinnon has a well documented condition, but surely it must be an easy angle for lawyers to generally exaggerate?

Ironically, Asperger's syndrome isn't a mental illness, but the point is valid nonetheless. I think in both the cases it's there capacity to make decisions which is in question. Did either of them really know what they were doing?

[edit: actually it is in DSMIV, I really should have known that, sorry]

China would have executed him anyway, and probably has a different understanding of madness from the Western view. At the end of the day, it was Britain's inability to save one of its own that is the real issue. Does anyone think the French would have stood for this?

[ArabHibee]

I don't want to be accused of being a know all, or lecturing to people here, but I have learned quite a bit about madness in the last few years.

:whistle:

The point is - as you illustrated - symptoms can come and go. When symptom free, and sometimes in the presence of symptoms, people can function alongside the rest of society.

AH, says the guy has never had a diagnosis. IMO, you don't need a doctor to tell you when someone has gone over the edge. Looking at the man's actions, he seems to have had some bizarre beliefs, which would raise a question about this judgement.

I think if someone had duped a child into smuggling drugs, there would be no question of responsibilty. Sometimes mad people are just as vulnerable.

Finally, it is not that easy to convince people you are mad if you're not.

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------



He thought he was going to China to sign a record contract that would have made him one of the world's biggest stars. I think that puts some question over his capacity to make judgements before he went.

Who says he was going to China to sign a record contract? A couple of randoms that knew him. Could you not argue that they were just saying that to get him off? And funny how all these people came out of the woodwork only 24 hours before he was executed. Bit late in the day by then, no?

The part of this that smacks of hypocrisy, for me anyway, is his family. From what I have read, he was living in Poland for well over a year, mostly as a homeless person, they don't appear to have been too bothered about him then, do they?

[hibiedude]

Am I right in saying that I read somewhere that Akmal Shaikh’s trial lasted 30 minutes if so and remembering that this was a capital punishment case 30 minutes to decide a man's future is nonsensical.

And that was done to him being caught holding the bag

[Tinyclothes]

The part of this that smacks of hypocrisy, for me anyway, is his family. From what I have read, he was living in Poland for well over a year, mostly as a homeless person, they don't appear to have been too bothered about him then, do they?

I agree, he was obviously well enough to live by himself in a foreign country so you would have thought he might be able to realise that taking a truck load of heroin into China was maybe a bad idea.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;2289290]I don't want to be accused of being a know all, or lecturing to people here, but I have learned quite a bit about madness in the last few years.

The point is - as you illustrated - symptoms can come and go. When symptom free, and sometimes in the presence of symptoms, people can function alongside the rest of society.

AH, says the guy has never had a diagnosis. IMO, you don't need a doctor to tell you when someone has gone over the edge. Looking at the man's actions, he seems to have had some bizarre beliefs, which would raise a question about this judgement.


Finally, it is not that easy to convince people you are mad if you're not.

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------



What I don't get, FR, is how.... if he hasn't been diagnosed... his supporters can say he has bipolarity. That's a pretty specific condition, no?, that would require professional diagnosis.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Who says he was going to China to sign a record contract? A couple of randoms that knew him. Could you not argue that they were just saying that to get him off? And funny how all these people came out of the woodwork only 24 hours before he was executed. Bit late in the day by then, no?

The part of this that smacks of hypocrisy, for me anyway, is his family. From what I have read, he was living in Poland for well over a year, mostly as a homeless person, they don't appear to have been too bothered about him then, do they?

Jeez, you certainly know how to Win Friends and Influence People. No need for the whistle smiley, IMO.

Yes, you could argue that they were saying that to get him off. They'd have to show evidence, possibly eMails etc. I don't think they came out of the woodwork 24 hours before it, that's when our media, decided to let us know about it - when it was too late for any groundswell of support.

I don't think hypocrisy is a hanging offence, even in China. I haven't heard their story so I can't judge them. Mentally ill people usually live lonely lives, cut off from their families who can't deal with their behaviour any more, many become homeless.

Crucially, many of them cannot seek treatment for their problem as they don't think they have a problem.

[McIntosh]

China has an apalling record in relation to human rights, expelling the Ambassador and imposing some form of sanctions gives a message that the dictatorship in Bejing understands.

Hard but the right thing to do.

[hibiedude]

Jeez, you certainly know how to Win Friends and Influence People. No need for the whistle smiley, IMO.

Yes, you could argue that they were saying that to get him off. They'd have to show evidence, possibly eMails etc. I don't think they came out of the woodwork 24 hours before it, that's when our media, decided to let us know about it - when it was too late for any groundswell of support.

I don't think hypocrisy is a hanging offence, even in China. I haven't heard their story so I can't judge them. Mentally ill people usually live lonely lives, cut off from their families who can't deal with their behaviour any more, many become homeless.
Crucially, many of them cannot seek treatment for their problem as they don't think they have a problem.

:top marks

[Phil D. Rolls]

[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;2289290]I don't want to be accused of being a know all, or lecturing to people here, but I have learned quite a bit about madness in the last few years.

The point is - as you illustrated - symptoms can come and go. When symptom free, and sometimes in the presence of symptoms, people can function alongside the rest of society.

AH, says the guy has never had a diagnosis. IMO, you don't need a doctor to tell you when someone has gone over the edge. Looking at the man's actions, he seems to have had some bizarre beliefs, which would raise a question about this judgement.


Finally, it is not that easy to convince people you are mad if you're not.

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------



What I don't get, FR, is how.... if he hasn't been diagnosed... his supporters can say he has bipolarity. That's a pretty specific condition, no?, that would require professional diagnosis.

They can't say for certain, only a doctor can make the diagnosis. However, just like you don't need a doctor to tell you that you have flu, you don't have to be a doctor to notic that someone is behaving irrationaly. China should at least have investigated this, or they should have allowed Britain to do so.

The Chinese have a different belief about Mental Illness, but would have thought that where a man's life is at stake, they could at least of considered alternative thinking. (Britain could also do the same with some forigners it incarcerates, but at least we don't shoot them).

The relatives described symptoms which are consistent with BPD, such as grandiose beliefs. At the end of the day a shrink would have to examine the guy and test his thinking, to say for "certain".

[ArabHibee]

Jeez, you certainly know how to Win Friends and Influence People. No need for the whistle smiley, IMO.

Yes, you could argue that they were saying that to get him off. They'd have to show evidence, possibly eMails etc. I don't think they came out of the woodwork 24 hours before it, that's when our media, decided to let us know about it - when it was too late for any groundswell of support.

I don't think hypocrisy is a hanging offence, even in China. I haven't heard their story so I can't judge them. Mentally ill people usually live lonely lives, cut off from their families who can't deal with their behaviour any more, many become homeless.

Crucially, many of them cannot seek treatment for their problem as they don't think they have a problem.

Oh yes they did, have a wee swatchie of this:

Warsaw, Poland

In Re: Akmal Shaikh



Declaration of Luis Belmonte Diaz, Photographer


My name is Luis Belmonte Diaz. I am a Spanish photographer based in Warsaw, Poland.

I am not sure whether it is too late to help Akmal by now, but I just heard about his situation in China through the media. I am traveling and will not be back in Poland until tomorrow (December 29), but I am willing to make this statement via email since the timing is so urgent.

When he was in Poland, I was following him for more than a year with my camera.

During all the time I was following him he told me a lot of things about his life in the UK, his family there, his family in Poland, and how he arrived, first to Lublin and then to Warsaw.

He was living in very stressful circumstances – he seemed stuck in Poland, without money, and without any way of making a living. It seemed clear to me that he was mentally ill. He told me all kinds of crazy things. I was not sure what to believe and what not to believe.

He told me how recorded his song in a local radio studio. He was obsessed with the fact that this song was somehow going to achieve great things.

I still remember the day when I received his last SMS saying he was going to Kyrgyzstan.

The foregoing is a true and accurate account of what I know about the matter and does not exhaust the sum of what I know.

December 28, 2009.

[Authorized by email as signature unavailable]
_____________________________________
Luis Belmonte Diaz


Date of said email - 28th December 2009.

[AndyM_1875]

From the BBC.......
"A spokeswoman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Jiang Yu, told a press briefing in Beijing no-one had the right to comment on China's judicial sovereignty.

"We express our strong dissatisfaction and opposition to the British government's unreasonable criticism of the case. We urge [them] to correct their mistake in order to avoid harming China-UK relations," she said.
"
:bitchy:

If it's an apology you are looking for Mrs Jiang Yu, from the UK over our Government's harsh language towards your human rights abusing, totalitarian Government I reckon you'll be waiting a while.

[Phil D. Rolls]

From the BBC.......
"A spokeswoman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Jiang Yu, told a press briefing in Beijing no-one had the right to comment on China's judicial sovereignty.

"We express our strong dissatisfaction and opposition to the British government's unreasonable criticism of the case. We urge [them] to correct their mistake in order to avoid harming China-UK relations," she said.
"
:bitchy:

If it's an apology you are looking for from the UK over our Government's harsh language towards your human rights abusing, totalitarian Government I reckon you'll be waiting a while.

In a sense they are saying the same thing Kenny MacAskill said about Al Megrahi. They are also saying we will do what they say, or pay the price. There is nothing we can do about it and they know it.

*******s.

[hibsbollah]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;2289324]


The Chinese have a different belief about Mental Illness, but would have thought that where a man's life is at stake, they could at least of considered alternative thinking. (Britain could also do the same with some forigners it incarcerates, but at least we don't shoot them).



According to Amnesty, China does have provision in its legal system to deal with mental illness (see below). They just dont seem to have put it into practice in this case.


Akmal Shaikh's family and lawyer have argued that he has suffered for many years with mental instability and is likely to have a bipolar disorder. Despite these claims, the Chinese authorities refused to allow Akmal Shaikh to be examined by a doctor. Forensic psychologist Dr Peter Shaapveld, who travelled to China specifically to meet Shaikh, was not allowed to meet him. After investigating through family members and other channels, however, he concluded that "the evidence clearly points to the fact that Mr. Shaikh was and/or is suffering from a severe mental disorder."

According to Article 18 of China's Criminal Law, a mental patient who commits a crime, and has not completely lost the ability to recognise or control his own conduct at the time, still has criminal responsibility but may be given a lighter punishment.

The death penalty is applicable to approximately 68 offences in China, including non-violent ones. China executes more people each year than any other country and while official statistics remain secret, Amnesty's figures show that China executed at least 1,718 people in 2008, nearly three-quarters (72%) of the world's executions. At least 7,003 people were sentenced to death in China last year. These figures represent a minimum - the real figures are undoubtedly much higher.

[AndyM_1875]

In a sense they are saying the same thing Kenny MacAskill said about Al Megrahi. They are also saying we will do what they say, or pay the price. There is nothing we can do about it and they know it.

*******s.

Their Government are generally a shower of murdering *******s at the best of times (see Exhibit A - Tianemen Square).
Ours is maybe just a bit rubbish.

If they don't like what the UK Government is saying then tough. I doubt very much that any more will happen or be said on this matter anyway.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Their Government are generally a shower of murdering *******s at the best of times (see Exhibit A - Tianemen Square).
Ours is maybe just a bit rubbish.

If they don't like what the UK Government is saying then tough. I doubt very much that any more will happen or be said on this matter anyway.

:faf:

[Betty Boop]

China's Execution Buses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nW1ORx6-I0

[CropleyWasGod]

Their Government are generally a shower of murdering *******s at the best of times (see Exhibit A - Tianemen Square).
Ours is maybe just a bit rubbish.

If they don't like what the UK Government is saying then tough. I doubt very much that any more will happen or be said on this matter anyway.

Darn tootin'. If this had happened somewhere like, say, Chad, or Peru, or anywhere else that doesn't have oil or anything else we want, we'd have chucked out their ambassador and/or bombed their capital by now.

[hibiedude]

China's Execution when carried out by firing squad, they made the family pay for the bullets.

[CropleyWasGod]

China has an apalling record in relation to human rights, expelling the Ambassador and imposing some form of sanctions gives a message that the dictatorship in Bejing understands.

Hard but the right thing to do.

Economic suicide to do so.

[Betty Boop]

Maybe China is avenging the Opium Wars? :rolleyes:

[CropleyWasGod]

China's Execution when carried out by firing squad, they made the family pay for the bullets.

What happened if the cheque bounced?

:devil:

[Killiehibbie]

What happened if the cheque bounced?

:devil:

The tanks flatten their house when everyone is sleeping.

[Woody1985]

China's Execution Buses.


Do you know if they ever heard from the lawyer again?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I agree, he was obviously well enough to live by himself in a foreign country so you would have thought he might be able to realise that taking a truck load of heroin into China was maybe a bad idea.

Well if you consider being homeless as looking after yourself then you might have a point.

Actually, when you think about it, what better pawn to use in a game of diplomacy than a drifter with no family, that no one will miss.

The other thing is there's a lot of focus on here on whether he was mad. Given the nature of chinese justice, can we safely assume that he ever had a truck load of Heroin. It was a half hour trial or something.

This whole thing is getting more horrible the more you think about it.

[da-robster]

Who says he was going to China to sign a record contract? A couple of randoms that knew him. Could you not argue that they were just saying that to get him off? And funny how all these people came out of the woodwork only 24 hours before he was executed. Bit late in the day by then, no?

The part of this that smacks of hypocrisy, for me anyway, is his family. From what I have read, he was living in Poland for well over a year, mostly as a homeless person, they don't appear to have been too bothered about him then, do they?

Mostly as a homeless person surely that proves he couldn't look after himself if he was living a house with a good job then maybe but it seems a bit naive to say that being homeless is looking after your self.

The unfortunate truth was we couldn't do anything about it once he was found with the heroin he was dead.It was clearly not the right thing to do considerering that it was a 30 minute trial with no medical examination to see if he was mentally ill.However china know that no one can protect him and challenge these unjust decisions as a country we are to weak, if we try to act we would be cut off econamically from what is fast turning into the greatest superpower in the world,all we could do was grovel and hope something was done and china just ignored us.This could possibly be a micronosm of foreign affairs in the future, other countries grovel and china decides weather or not to grant their wish and if they don't the others are powerless.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Mostly as a homeless person surely that proves he couldn't look after himself if he was living a house with a good job then maybe but it seems a bit naive to say that being homeless is looking after your self.

The unfortunate truth was we couldn't do anything about it once he was found with the heroin he was dead.It was clearly not the right thing to do considerering that it was a 30 minute trial with no medical examination to see if he was mentally ill.However china know that no one can protect him and challenge these unjust decisions as a country we are to weak, if we try to act we would be cut off econamically from what is fast turning into the greatest superpower in the world,all we could do was grovel and hope something was done and china just ignored us.This could possibly be a micronosm of foreign affairs in the future, other countries grovel and china decides weather or not to grant their wish and if they don't the others are powerless.

:agree:How can you be guilty of anything, let alone a capital offence, after a 30 minute trial? It makes a mockery of justice.

[da-robster]

:agree:How can you be guilty of anything, let alone a capital offence, after a 30 minute trial? It makes a mockery of justice.

I see a few people on here saying one less trafficker,but the point is because of the complete lack of justice administered in the trial, both by it's length and by its refusal to enable medical evidence, it is impossible to tell weather he was even a trafficker. Now I'm against the death penalty anyway, but to kill someone without even properly trying them, is a blatent breach of human rights.

[ArabHibee]

Mostly as a homeless person surely that proves he couldn't look after himself if he was living a house with a good job then maybe but it seems a bit naive to say that being homeless is looking after your self.

The unfortunate truth was we couldn't do anything about it once he was found with the heroin he was dead.It was clearly not the right thing to do considerering that it was a 30 minute trial with no medical examination to see if he was mentally ill.However china know that no one can protect him and challenge these unjust decisions as a country we are to weak, if we try to act we would be cut off econamically from what is fast turning into the greatest superpower in the world,all we could do was grovel and hope something was done and china just ignored us.This could possibly be a micronosm of foreign affairs in the future, other countries grovel and china decides weather or not to grant their wish and if they don't the others are powerless.

Not sure why you quoted me in your post as I have never said he must have been able to look after himself if he was homeless?

[da-robster]

Ok, I'm going to stick my neck out on this one (as per) and highlight some things that people seem to be skirting around, especially the media:

1. The man in question was caught smuggling a fair amount of drugs into China.

2. As far as I have read, he was never diagnosed with a mental problem before he was caught smuggling drugs. And the diagnosis has been from second hand statements, as a doctor has not been able to diagnose him as the Chinese authorities refused this request.

3. If he was as mentally unstable as his family say he was, what was he doing on his own in Poland, then Kyrgyzstan, then Tajikistan and finally to China were he was caught with the suitcase of drugs.

4. How was he able to run a small business if he was that mentally unstable?

5. How easy is it to start acting mentally unstable when you are facing a death sentence in a country which doesn't really listen to reason with any other country in the world?

If you smuggle drugs, you take your chances.


Not sure why you quoted me in your post as I have never said he must have been able to look after himself if he was homeless?

.

[ArabHibee]

.

You've quoted 2 of my posts. Where do I say a homeless person can look after themselves?

[New Corrie]

Apparantly we have to respect the laws and traditions in foreign countries, although this man's fate seems a bit barbaric. I was reading an article recently, and it was said that a foreign country (a lot closer to us) refuses to allow impregnated rape victims an abortion, surely this can't be true! There can't possibly be a country that carries out this barabaric ruling, is there? If true (which I cant possibly imagine it is) then it must be some very sick sort of regime.

[J-C]

The family say he has a mental definciency and that the drugs were planted on him, do we know if this information is true?

If not, then he deserved to die under the laws of the country he attempted to smuggle the drugs into. Saying that though, I don't condone anyone being executed for this crime but remember it is another country with very strict laws concerning these crimes.

[Gatecrasher]

Since when was being Ill excuse you of a crime?

Whether we agree with china's decision to give him the death penalty or not this is their laws and he was caught with drugs so he pays the ultimate price.

It's the same with that guy that hacked into the Americans computers he shouldn't be exused because he is Ill.

IMO the punishment should be diffrent if you are mentally unwell but if you break the law in another country then you have to go by their laws

[Toaods]

having travelled through Thailand I can assure you it is made perfectly clear that if you are caught carrying drugs (having signed the incoming declaration) you will be very harshly dealt with.

This warning is also given verbally in various languages.


Not withstanding the fact that you will also be asked if flying, whether you are carrying anything that has been given to you by another person, the answer is not usually 'no' whilst carrying enough drugs to keep Harlem high for a few nights.

As we all know, China is far more severe when it comes to breaking the law so the chances of this guy getting off were never any good.

Britain has always been world champions at defending the honour of our citizens, as it's hard to recall anyone who has been caught having been classed by the UK as deserving of their conviction.

So we have this mentally ill chap who has been conned by a baddie in Poland (was he Polish?) which is almost as believable as the two Brummie girls who smuggled drugs into Thailand via Amsterdam. Again, they were both nice as nice could be and some bad guy just duped them into it.

I wouldn't have suggested the guy should be killed but that's the Chinese Law and nothing we can do will change that, I believe the UK Gov would have known that fully but the plea for clemency sounds good to Joe Public.

[Jamesie]

Ok, I'm going to stick my neck out on this one (as per) and highlight some things that people seem to be skirting around, especially the media:

1. The man in question was caught smuggling a fair amount of drugs into China.

2. As far as I have read, he was never diagnosed with a mental problem before he was caught smuggling drugs. And the diagnosis has been from second hand statements, as a doctor has not been able to diagnose him as the Chinese authorities refused this request.

3. If he was as mentally unstable as his family say he was, what was he doing on his own in Poland, then Kyrgyzstan, then Tajikistan and finally to China were he was caught with the suitcase of drugs.

4. How was he able to run a small business if he was that mentally unstable?

5. How easy is it to start acting mentally unstable when you are facing a death sentence in a country which doesn't really listen to reason with any other country in the world?

If you smuggle drugs, you take your chances.

These aren't countries you can just wander into. Visas are dear and have to be applied for in advance for both. Would be interesting to know if he applied for the visas himself or is someone else did it for him.

Interesting the kids hadn't spoken to him for years apparently until all this blew up. Any reason why?

[GhostofBolivar]

How can the answer be no if she gave two options?!

Who's to say that they can't all be guilty? Has everyone of their cases been looked at and investigated further?

She Xianglin and Teng Xingshan were both convicted of the murder of their wives in two separate cases in 1994 and 1987 respectively. Both were sentenced to death despite pleas of innocence and allegations that both had confessed because they had been severely beaten during interrogations. both cases, the alleged murder victims reappeared several years later - in April and June 2005 respectively.She Xianglin’s sentence was commuted to 15 years imprisonment after a re-trial. He was released after 11 years in prison on 1 April 2005 and officially cleared of all charges later the same month. He and his family were awarded compensation of 450,000 yuan (approx. US$55,500) in October 2005. Teng Xingshan, however, was executed in 1989.

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/apro/aproweb.nsf/pages/appeals_adpan_china


Also, I think that this 72% being banded around everywhere is making a lot of people jump on the bandwagon and say how terrible China are (not saying they're not). They have around half of the worlds population (IIRC) and a lot of the developed countries don't invoke the death penalty so of course it's going to be the vast majority of them.

Eh, naw.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:CHN&q=china+population#met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:CHN&tdim=true

[Phil D. Rolls]

I see a few people on here saying one less trafficker,but the point is because of the complete lack of justice administered in the trial, both by it's length and by its refusal to enable medical evidence, it is impossible to tell weather he was even a trafficker. Now I'm against the death penalty anyway, but to kill someone without even properly trying them, is a blatent breach of human rights.

It's clear we don't have enough information on this case to form any sort of judgement. The issue of his madness is secondary to the lack of due process.

[hibiedude]

We have also learnt that the body of Akmal Shaikh will not be returned to the family.

Some reports on BBC News 24 say that the bodies of the executed are never returned and are used for transplants.

Akmal Shaikh visited a hospital a day before his execution but no reasons were given for this visit.

Lethal injection has replaced the firing squad on death row in China

[Woody1985]

She Xianglin and Teng Xingshan were both convicted of the murder of their wives in two separate cases in 1994 and 1987 respectively. Both were sentenced to death despite pleas of innocence and allegations that both had confessed because they had been severely beaten during interrogations. both cases, the alleged murder victims reappeared several years later - in April and June 2005 respectively.She Xianglin’s sentence was commuted to 15 years imprisonment after a re-trial. He was released after 11 years in prison on 1 April 2005 and officially cleared of all charges later the same month. He and his family were awarded compensation of 450,000 yuan (approx. US$55,500) in October 2005. Teng Xingshan, however, was executed in 1989.

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/apro/aproweb.nsf/pages/appeals_adpan_china



Eh, naw.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:CHN&q=china+population#met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:CHN&tdim=true

Glad you looked at the rest of my post(s) :wink:

[Betty Boop]

Who says he was going to China to sign a record contract? A couple of randoms that knew him. Could you not argue that they were just saying that to get him off? And funny how all these people came out of the woodwork only 24 hours before he was executed. Bit late in the day by then, no?

The part of this that smacks of hypocrisy, for me anyway, is his family. From what I have read, he was living in Poland for well over a year, mostly as a homeless person, they don't appear to have been too bothered about him then, do they?

The UK made 27 ministerial representations over the last two years, and still the Chinese refused to do a medical assessment. Hardly a case of people coming out of the woodwork.

[Hibs Class]

Since when was being Ill excuse you of a crime?

Whether we agree with china's decision to give him the death penalty or not this is their laws and he was caught with drugs so he pays the ultimate price.

It's the same with that guy that hacked into the Americans computers he shouldn't be exused because he is Ill.

IMO the punishment should be diffrent if you are mentally unwell but if you break the law in another country then you have to go by their laws


Roughly since civilisations became properly civilised and recognised mental illness. You can even get verdicts that recognise mental illness, such as 'not guilty by reason of insanity'. It is a truism that you can judge a society by how it treats its vulnerable and both Shaikh and "that guy" (Gary McKinnon) are vulnerable and have not been treated with compassion.

[da-robster]

You've quoted 2 of my posts. Where do I say a homeless person can look after themselves?

On your first post you say How was he able to run a small business if he was that mentally unstable?

Now if he was running a small business as you say then he was looking after himself, and as we know he was homeless we know he wasn't looking after himself.
Apoligies if this is not what you meant but I quoted your post because that is what I thought it meant.

[Gus]

Huge debate whether this was right or wrong. The guy was caught with enough Heroin to kill 28,800 people, thats alot........I do not know if the guy was mentally ill, his family are saying this but there are no medical records to suggest this :confused:

He has done the crime in a country that the death penalty is punishment, up to their justice system.

Would be interesting if the roles were reversed though........

Similar (different scale) to the guy who hacked into the US defence network & is getting punted to the USA to face trial, I see his family on the telly saying he's ill. Although seems pretty clever lad to me with what he did (rainman)

these are my thoughts, hope I dont cause offence:wink:

[J-C]

On your first post you say How was he able to run a small business if he was that mentally unstable?

Now if he was running a small business as you say then he was looking after himself, and as we know he was homeless we know he wasn't looking after himself.
Apoligies if this is not what you meant but I quoted your post because that is what I thought it meant.


Never ever assume you thought you knew what someone meant in a post, this could cause a lot arguments.

When I read this post I never once thought, oh! he's mentally unstable to run a business so I'm just going to assume that if he's mentally unstable, then he must by all accounts be homeless. There are thousands of mentally unstable people in Britain who are well looked after, living at home or in the correct facilities for them.

As said, how on earth does a so called mentally unstable guy get himself into 3 or 4 foreign countries without firstly getting all the essential documentation, and then turn round and say the herion was probably planted on me cause I'm not right in the head. Looks like to me he got caught and made up the mentally unstable thing to try to either get off or get a more lenient sentence.

[Jack]

We have also learnt that the body of Akmal Shaikh will not be returned to the family.


Some reports on BBC News 24 say that the bodies of the executed are never returned and are used for transplants.

Akmal Shaikh visited a hospital a day before his execution but no reasons were given for this visit.

Lethal injection has replaced the firing squad on death row in China

This is quite normal in China with the guilty being killed ‘to order’.


**************************************************

China has a quite appalling record on human rights and pissed on the international community when they said things would change to get the Olympic Games. Nothing changed.

However. China has a right to have its own laws (whether we think they are right or wrong has nothing to do with it) and the right to expect people within their jurisdiction to live by them or accept the consequences.

As has been said its not as if China keeps these laws a secret. Its not as if Chinas appalling record on human rights is not very well known.

The only surprise to me is the number of folk that still think its wrong that other countries don’t automatically release UK nationals when they break laws overseas and that don’t appreciate its not the role of the UK Government to get UK criminals off the hook or released from jails abroad.

[Betty Boop]

This is quite normal in China with the guilty being killed ‘to order’.


**************************************************

China has a quite appalling record on human rights and pissed on the international community when they said things would change to get the Olympic Games. Nothing changed.

However. China has a right to have its own laws (whether we think they are right or wrong has nothing to do with it) and the right to expect people within their jurisdiction to live by them or accept the consequences.

As has been said its not as if China keeps these laws a secret. Its not as if Chinas appalling record on human rights is not very well known.

The only surprise to me is the number of folk that still think its wrong that other countries don’t automatically release UK nationals when they break laws overseas and that don’t appreciate its not the role of the UK Government to get UK criminals off the hook or released from jails abroad.

I don't think anyone on this thread is suggesting the above, but surely the role of the UK Government is to protect the human rights of its citizens, at home or abroad. We have after all signed up to the Human Rights Act.

[hibiedude]

I don't think anyone on this thread is suggesting the above, but surely the role of the UK Government is to protect the human rights of its citizens, at home or abroad. We have after all signed up to the Human Rights Act.


I have to agree with the points you raised but no one can say that a trial that last 30 minutes and the verdict was a death sentence is correct.


China slaughter there own people for daring to speak out against there regime, news coverage is censored and there internet is closely monitored and closed at the first sign of trouble

The people get told what the government what them to know and when they execute someone and the UK government question its legality The Chinese tell the UK to keep our noses out of there business, well it is the business of our Government to question WHY all the facts weren't taken in to consideration before this mentally ill man was put to death.

[Woody1985]

[/B]


I have to agree with the points you raised but no one can say that a trial that last 30 minutes and the verdict was a death sentence is correct.


China slaughter there own people for daring to speak out against there regime, news coverage is censored and there internet is closely monitored and closed at the first sign of trouble

The people get told what the government what them to know and when they execute someone and the UK government question its legality The Chinese tell the UK to keep our noses out of there business, well it is the business of our Government to question WHY all the facts weren't taken in to consideration before this mentally ill man was put to death.

Given what has been said re the HRA, have any other nations that signed up come out and supported US?

And I don't mean the UN or any other formed group that individual nations can hide behind. I.e has the French, German, Dutch PMs etc come out to condemn it?

[Betty Boop]

Some more on the chain of events that led to the drug smuggling.(from the Observer).

Emails seen by the Observer reveal that Shaikh was recruited in a sting operation involving criminal figures in Poland, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. His defence was that he was duped by the gang and had no knowledge of the drugs. Shaikh, who is married to an Englishwoman and has five children, genuinely believed the gang were his friends and were grooming him for pop stardom. In fact, say lawyers and friends, he was, and is, suffering from delusional psychosis.

Despite being given evidence of his mental condition, the Chinese authorities have refused to conduct a psychological assessment of the Briton and did not take his mental illness into account. During a court appearance to plead his innocence, witnesses said that such was the incoherent nature of his 50-minute speech that those in the courtroom openly laughed.

Shaikh, who is imprisoned in the isolated north-western city of Urumqi, was the victim of an elaborate ruse to exploit his mental condition, say his supporters. Yet only five years ago he appeared to have a stable life, running a successful successful minicab firm in Kentish Town with his wife. Shaikh's former solicitor said that as recently as 2003 Shaikh was a "charming and charismatic man". However, his mental state deteriorated sharply soon afterwards, said the solicitor, and the following year he left London for Poland, where he planned to set up an airline despite having no financial means. "By the time he went over to Poland you could not even sit down and have a conversation with him," said Shaikh's former solicitor.

In Poland Shaikh's mental state worsened after a relationship with a new girlfriend foundered. Requesting anonymity, she said Shaikh began to act in a "really silly and crazy way" and cited such incidents as the time he sent her a fake letter claiming to show he had won £1m. Emails sent by Shaikh to the British embassy in Warsaw in 2007, when he appears to have been befriended by Polish heroin traffickers he met in the city of Lublin, expose his vulnerable state of mind. Among them are claims by Shaikh to have spoken to the angel Gabriel and how he could have prevented the 7 July bombings in London had he been allowed to hold a press conference in Lublin. Typical of the hundreds of emails he sent to embassy staff in Warsaw is one that states: "Hey old chap u have any marshmallows. i man luvly bonfire u must roast some marshmellows I mean that's NOrMal." Another reads: "There is no such thinG as an englishmaN I mean king harold got it smack bang center in the EYE. its just not cricket anymore."

Some messages were sent to a group of 74 individuals and organisations including Tony Blair, Sir Paul McCartney, the Fathers 4 Justice campaign group, Scotland Yard, the BBC programme Top Gear and President George W Bush, who is referred to as "Bushie". But the emails also chart how Shaikh met the Polish criminals, in particular a character called Carlos with whom he claims to have composed a song and who promised Shaikh he could turn it into a hit record. Carlos told him he had excellent contacts in the music business and they would help him achieve success. In September 2007 Carlos paid for a flight for Shaikh to Kyrgyzstan.

There, his passport was taken by some unnamed men, although Shaikh seems unperturbed because at that stage he believed he was on the brink of international fame and "would not need it".Shaikh's passport was later returned, along with a flight ticket to China, and he was introduced to a man called Okole who would escort him to Urumqi. Okole, according to Shaikh, ran a huge nightclub in China and promised the Briton that he could perform his song there. They left for China on 8 September 2007, stopping en route in Dushanbe, Tajikistan. In Dushanbe, Okole informed Shaikh that the British man would have to travel alone to China because there was only one seat left on the plane. Okole gave him a suitcase and promised to follow on the next flight. Shaikh landed in Urumqi airport on 12 September and was arrested after his suitcase was scanned.

Shaikh is understood to have co-operated fully with the police, explaining that the suitcase did not belong to him and he had no knowledge of the heroin. He even organised a "sting" operation, telling officers to wait for Okole when he arrived from Tajikistan. Okole never turned up. "It is highly likely that these professional drug smugglers knew that he was suffering from a mental illness and could be readily manipulated," said Stafford-Smith.

Two months after his arrest Shaikh was sentenced to death. The British government, however, was not told until almost a year later, in November 2008. Last May Shaikh's appeal against his sentence at the district court in Urumqi was rejected, leaving a final appeal in the Supreme People's Court to save his life, which is now reported to have failed. Prisoners can be executed "almost immediately" after a second appeal has been rejected.

His brother Akbar said: "Akmal has struggled for many years with what we now know to be a serious mental illness. We are all very worried for his safety as we know he is unable to defend himself properly. He will be extremely disorientated and distressed. We are praying that the Chinese courts will see that he is not of sound mind and prevent his execution."

Dr Peter Schaapveld, a London-based consultant clinical and forensic psychologist, said: "If this case occurred in Britain, mental health issues would be played all the way through the process: Should he be charged? Should be found guilty at all? Should his condition ameliorate the sentence?" Schaapveld flew to China five months ago to evaluate Shaikh's mental condition but the authorities refused to let him see the prisoner. However, foreign office officials were allowed to spend 15 minutes with Shaikh. From their description of Shaikh's behaviour, Shaapveld was able to deduce with "99% certainty" that he was suffering from a mental disorder that could either be bipolar or schizophrenia.

[ArabHibee]

The UK made 27 ministerial representations over the last two years, and still the Chinese refused to do a medical assessment. Hardly a case of people coming out of the woodwork.

Sorry, I'm talking about the people who gave personal references (a priest, a nun, a photographer and other bloke) towards his good character that were all signed and dated 27th and 28th December 2009. See the link in one of my first posts if you want confirmation.


On your first post you say How was he able to run a small business if he was that mentally unstable?

Now if he was running a small business as you say then he was looking after himself, and as we know he was homeless we know he wasn't looking after himself.
Apoligies if this is not what you meant but I quoted your post because that is what I thought it meant.

No that's not what I meant. HappyHibbie explained that he knew someone who ran a business who had bi-polar disorder so I concurred to his knowledge. I would probably say that someone who is homeless would be able to look after himself.


[/B]


I have to agree with the points you raised but no one can say that a trial that last 30 minutes and the verdict was a death sentence is correct.


China slaughter there own people for daring to speak out against there regime, news coverage is censored and there internet is closely monitored and closed at the first sign of trouble

The people get told what the government what them to know and when they execute someone and the UK government question its legality The Chinese tell the UK to keep our noses out of there business, well it is the business of our Government to question WHY all the facts weren't taken in to consideration before this mentally ill man was put to death.
Is this not what Scotland told everyone when we released the Lockerbie bomber? Although I bet China won't be having all the parliamentary debates that we had about this.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Let's assume he was bipolar and that he did commit a crime. Does anyone believe that he had a fair trial?

For anyone wanting to understand how BPD affects people there are many web sites that give information. I would also recommend watching Stephen Fry's "The Secret Life of The Manic Depressive", if you ever get a chance.

To me, the guy's illness would not have affected his ability to move round the world. People can achieve many extraordinary things when they are in a manic phase.

It's pointless to speculate on this man's condition. It is possible though, that he managed to escape the mental health system. Even if he had been diagnosed, cases in England such as Christopher Clunis showed the difficulties in tracking mental illness sufferers.

Finally, death for smuggling drugs is barbaric. It looks like we in Britain are prepared to accept China's barbarity.

[Scouse Hibee]

Let's assume he was bipolar and that he did commit a crime. Does anyone believe that he had a fair trial?

For anyone wanting to understand how BPD affects people there are many web sites that give information. I would also recommend watching Stephen Fry's "The Secret Life of The Manic Depressive", if you ever get a chance.

To me, the guy's illness would not have affected his ability to move round the world. People can achieve many extraordinary things when they are in a manic phase.

It's pointless to speculate on this man's condition. It is possible though, that he managed to escape the mental health system. Even if he had been diagnosed, cases in England such as Christopher Clunis showed the difficulties in tracking mental illness sufferers.

Finally, death for smuggling drugs is barbaric. It looks like we in Britain are prepared to accept China's barbarity.

Does the punishment fit the the crime? In China it does!

[hibiedude]

I suppose it comes down to the fact that did this guy get a fair trial were all the facts known about his mental condition, was his mental condition taking into consideration as to why he was carrying the bag in the first place.

The speedy trial he had would tell us that not all the facts were known, so that would answer my first point.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Does the punishment fit the the crime? In China it does!

So it was a fair trial? I can sleep easier now.


I suppose it comes down to the fact that did this guy get a fair trial were all the facts known about his mental condition, was his mental condition taking into consideration as to why he was carrying the bag in the first place.

The speedy trial he had would tell us that not all the facts were known, so that would answer my first point.

Precisely, and whether or not the Chinese call this justice is irrelevant. The rest of the world should be concerned.

[Jack]

Precisely, and whether or not the Chinese call this justice is irrelevant. The rest of the world should be concerned.

But the rest of the world is concerned and there have been many attempts to bring pressure to bare on them to ‘lighten up’ a bit.

I mentioned the Olympics earlier as an example of the rest of the world saying ‘be good and we’ll give you the Olympics’ China saying ‘OK’ then totally ignoring it. What can you do?

TBH I think there will come a time when countries unwilling to address human rights issues, harbour terrorism etc. will be alienated by the rest of the world. Instead of going to war they will just be cut off but that would probably lead to war anyway. China may have considerable economic clout at the moment but if the rest of the world was unwilling to trade, either way, it wouldn’t matter how much they had. Their growing interest in and colonisation of Africa is a bit of a concern.

[Phil D. Rolls]

But the rest of the world is concerned and there have been many attempts to bring pressure to bare on them to ‘lighten up’ a bit.

I mentioned the Olympics earlier as an example of the rest of the world saying ‘be good and we’ll give you the Olympics’ China saying ‘OK’ then totally ignoring it. What can you do?

TBH I think there will come a time when countries unwilling to address human rights issues, harbour terrorism etc. will be alienated by the rest of the world. Instead of going to war they will just be cut off but that would probably lead to war anyway. China may have considerable economic clout at the moment but if the rest of the world was unwilling to trade, either way, it wouldn’t matter how much they had. Their growing interest in and colonisation of Africa is a bit of a concern.

The way I see it is they will colonise the world, and all our freedoms will disappear. It's maybe over pessimistic, but I think they are unstoppable, and this sad case is just their way of reminding us of that.

It's almost like they've gone out and whipped some hobo off the street and executed him just to remind us of their power. He didn't deserve to die.

[Gus]

Finally, death for smuggling drugs is barbaric. It looks like we in Britain are prepared to accept China's barbarity.

The quantity of this deadly drug that he had on him though I would say would warrant the death penalty IMO, it wasn't a spliff he was caught with.

This is for anyone, I dont know if he had a fair trial but he was caught with it

[steakbake]

Aside from the "i'd pull the lever myself"/"that's what you get" sort of comments, I think the problem with this story is the fact he appears not to have been given a very fair trial. I'm usually very suspicious of accusations by Brits in trouble abroad of dodgy dealings in court, but in this case, I think there might be a point. By most accounts his translator in court was poor. In addition, medical circumstances appear not to have been taken into any consideration at all.

If you need any proof as to the unthinking barbarity that China is capable of as a state and any to demonstrate that the death penalty is the sort of thing most usually carried out by blinkered, hardened regimes with a total disregard for human rights and due process, then this case has it all.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The quantity of this deadly drug that he had on him though I would say would warrant the death penalty IMO, it wasn't a spliff he was caught with.

This is for anyone, I dont know if he had a fair trial but he was caught with it

Without a proper trial it is difficult to accept anything about his "crime".

[hibiedude]

The quantity of this deadly drug that he had on him though I would say would warrant the death penalty IMO, it wasn't a spliff he was caught with.

This is for anyone, I dont know if he had a fair trial but he was caught with it

If someone is caught with drugs on them say with a mental capacity off say 11 year would he be guilty in your eyes ?

If you heard the song he sung that he thought was going to bring world piece then clearly this guy needed help not executed.

[Betty Boop]

Jeezo, some right compassionate souls on this thread! :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

If someone is caught with drugs on them say with a mental capacity off say 11 year would he be guilty in your eyes ?

If you heard the song he sung that he thought was going to bring world piece then clearly this guy needed help not executed.

I think anyone that thinks their music can change the world should be executed. Step forward Mr Bono.:devil:

[hibiedude]

I think anyone that thinks their music can change the world should be executed. Step forward Mr Bono.:devil:

I could have worded my post differently :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think there has been ongoing niggle between China and Britain. Witness the olympics, out of all the people China could have chosen to represent the UK at the opening ceremony, they went for a non registered pipe band from Dundee.

Nice for the band, but China's way of making out Britain is small time. Then we had Boris' banter at the closing ceremony. The nations didn't come across as the best of pals.

So what's it all about? An Iranian guy I was speaking to at NewYear reckons that China resents Britain's influence in Iran, and is after a slice of the action. I don't know how true this is, but it might explain the niggle that is gong on at the moment.

I reckon the guy who was executed is a victim.

[Tinyclothes]

Stephen Fry has bi-polar and he seems to run his life just fine to people on the outside looking in. Whether the guy who was executed did have heroine or not is imaterial. How can being executed on the back of a 30 minute trial ever be justifiable? Regardless of which country it's in.

China is run by a Bone Fide tyrant, that much surely can't be disputed. A tyrant will oppress a people to stay in power, so by proxy, anyone who agrees with this man being executed agrees with the tyrannical regime of a dictator who among other things is guilty of numerous human rights abuses. This particular abuse of human rights is a mere drop in the ocean.

In my opinion, some of the people on this thread must be so easy to trick. All you need to do is wave a bag of heroin in front of your noses and you conveniently forget that the country is run by a ******ing despot.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Stephen Fry has bi-polar and he seems to run his life just fine to people on the outside looking in. Whether the guy who was executed did have heroine or not is imaterial. How can being executed on the back of a 30 minute trial ever be justifiable? Regardless of which country it's in.

China is run by a Bone Fide tyrant, that much surely can't be disputed. A tyrant will oppress a people to stay in power, so by proxy, anyone who agrees with this man being executed agrees with the tyrannical regime of a dictator who among other things is guilty of numerous human rights abuses. This particular abuse of human rights is a mere drop in the ocean.

In my opinion, some of the people on this thread must be so easy to trick. All you need to do is wave a bag of heroin in front of your noses and you conveniently forget that the country is run by a ******ing despot.

:top marks

There can't be a crime without a trial IMO.

[Woody1985]

:top marks

There can't be a crime without a trial IMO.

Bollocks. So I can go out and carve up 50 people and because I'm not caught I'm not guily or have I missed the point of that comment?

Apologies for the bollocks if so. :greengrin

[ArabHibee]

:top marks

There can't be a crime without a trial IMO.

He did have a trial. Albeit a 30 minute one, but a trial none the less.

[steakbake]

He did have a trial. Albeit a 30 minute one, but a trial none the less.

Aye, sounds like a very thorough examination of the facts.

[ArabHibee]

Aye, sounds like a very thorough examination of the facts.

That wasn't the point I was making though.

[Tinyclothes]

That wasn't the point I was making though.

What was?

---------- Post added at 09:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 AM ----------


Bollocks. So I can go out and carve up 50 people and because I'm not caught I'm not guily or have I missed the point of that comment?

Apologies for the bollocks if so. :greengrin

I think you've missed the point spectacularly.

[Woody1985]

What was?

---------- Post added at 09:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 AM ----------



I think you've missed the point spectacularly.

Care to elaborate on the point made by FR?

[Tinyclothes]

Care to elaborate on the point made by FR?

I don't like to speak on his behalf but, what I gleaned from what he was saying was that if there is no trial then you cannot be convicted of a crime therefore there is no crime as it hasn't been recognised as such by the justice system which is the arm of the legislature which classes what is and isn't a crime.

If you take the situation in Somalia. There is no government therefore no legal system therefore no crimes.

It doesn't mean that you can run about 'carving up 50 people' with impunity. I'm be a little concerned that the first thing that sprang to your mind was running about slashing people.

[ArabHibee]

What was?

FR stated "There can't be a crime without a trial IMO".

I stated that he did have a trial albeit a 30 minute one. I never meant that this was right, just that it was a fact.

[Tinyclothes]

FR stated "There can't be a crime without a trial IMO".

I stated that he did have a trial albeit a 30 minute one. I never meant that this was right, just that it was a fact.

I assumed that you must have meant something else due to the number of times that this had been mentioned already.

My mistake.

[Phil D. Rolls]

FR stated "There can't be a crime without a trial IMO".

I stated that he did have a trial albeit a 30 minute one. I never meant that this was right, just that it was a fact.

The way I see it, calling it a trial doesn't make it a trial. I don't know much about international law, but I would be surprised if this "trial" fits any definition of the word.

[lapsedhibee]

The way I see it, calling it a trial doesn't make it a trial. I don't know much about international law, but I would be surprised if this "trial" fits any definition of the word.

Average temperature in China is higher than in UK or US. This leads naturally to shorter trials. Have you never heard of summery justice FFS? :dunno:

[Hibs Class]

I think a better way of stating it would be to say there cannot be a conviction without a trial, and that there cannot be a credible / safe conviction withut a credible trial. There doesn't have to be a trial for there to be a crime as (Minority Report excepted) the crime will always come first.

[Woody1985]

I don't like to speak on his behalf but, what I gleaned from what he was saying was that if there is no trial then you cannot be convicted of a crime therefore there is no crime as it hasn't been recognised as such by the justice system which is the arm of the legislature which classes what is and isn't a crime.

If you take the situation in Somalia. There is no government therefore no legal system therefore no crimes.

It doesn't mean that you can run about 'carving up 50 people' with impunity. I'm be a little concerned that the first thing that sprang to your mind was running about slashing people.

I'm not quite sure you know what FRs is on about!


FR
There can't be a crime without a trial IMO


It would seem that FR isn't referring to lawless states otherwise the word trial would have been justice system / law.

Crimes can be committed without a trial. The people just haven't been caught.

Perhaps both of us missed the point spectacularly?!

I also wouldn't slash them, I said carve. We really need a Mwuhahahaha smilie. :tee hee:

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 PM ----------


I think a better way of stating it would be to say there cannot be a conviction without a trial, and that there cannot be a credible / safe conviction withut a credible trial. There doesn't have to be a trial for there to be a crime as (Minority Report excepted) the crime will always come first.

:not worth

That's what FRs means. :greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

The way I see it is they will colonise the world, and all our freedoms will disappear. It's maybe over pessimistic, but I think they are unstoppable, and this sad case is just their way of reminding us of that.

It's almost like they've gone out and whipped some hobo off the street and executed him just to remind us of their power. He didn't deserve to die.

Crikey, that has a distinctly unpleasant subtext (probably equally unpleasant as those defending this execution). Have you been reading a lot of Jack London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unparalleled_Invasion) lately?

There's not really anything China is doing now that is different to the ideological basis and practical behaviour of Western nation states, previously, at the same (or similar) socio-economic stage(s); they are not the malevolent 'Other' of your characterisation.