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Sylar
16-12-2009, 11:01 PM
Dick Campbell was caught on video in Seville leading a pub full of Rangers fans in Derry's Walls, followed by the group of fans belting out the Sash (with add-ons), yet still had the audacity to claim he wasn't singing despite this (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/scottish/scottish_news/636029/****-Campbell-is-caught-on-film-leading-Rangers-fans-in-Loyalist-anthem.html) video of him being clear as day.

Cause for him being landed in hot-water, as he's manager of an SFL football team, or should it just be ignored and passed off as "another idiot bigot"?

Discuss!

[p.s. - sorry if already posted - couldn't see anything similar after a quick scan]

Hibs Spain
16-12-2009, 11:33 PM
Dick Campbell was caught on video in Seville leading a pub full of Rangers fans in Derry's Walls, followed by the group of fans belting out the Sash (with add-ons), yet still had the audacity to claim he wasn't singing despite this (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/scottish/scottish_news/636029/****-Campbell-is-caught-on-film-leading-Rangers-fans-in-Loyalist-anthem.html) video of him being clear as day.

Cause for him being landed in hot-water, as he's manager of an SFL football team, or should it just be ignored and passed off as "another idiot bigot"?

Discuss!

[p.s. - sorry if already posted - couldn't see anything similar after a quick scan]Part of the poison that runs through the body of the game in Scotland.And it would be naive in the extreme to pretend it doesn't exist in some form or other from refs to admin at the SFA

TheEastTerrace
16-12-2009, 11:37 PM
Rotten to the core. Should be removed from his position and fined. These guys are meant to be mentors and coaches to young players. I take it he celebrates a win with a rendition of 'no surrender' then. :grr:

blackpoolhibs
16-12-2009, 11:40 PM
A small minority, nothing to see here, move on. :faf:

WindyMiller
16-12-2009, 11:44 PM
Part of the poison that runs through LIFE in Scotland.And it would be naive in the extreme to pretend it doesn't exist in some form or other from refs to admin at the SFA


EDITED.:cool2:

libernian
16-12-2009, 11:51 PM
Rotten to the core. Should be removed from his position and fined. These guys are meant to be mentors and coaches to young players. I take it he celebrates a win with a rendition of 'no surrender' then. :grr:


settle doon, he sang a bit of a song, n gave the crowd some entertainment, so fair play.

pc gone mad, non story.

Baader
16-12-2009, 11:59 PM
pc gone mad, non story.

Fail to see what's PC about opposing sectarianism in this country mate. Turning a blind eye or a deaf ear to it is much the same as condoning that sort of stuff and the reason folk have gotten away with it for so long unchallenged.

libernian
17-12-2009, 12:07 AM
Fail to see what's PC about opposing sectarianism in this country mate. Turning a blind eye or a deaf ear to it is much the same as condoning that sort of stuff and the reason folk have gotten away with it for so long unchallenged.

but is it sectarianism? or is it a few folk havin a few beers n having a laugh. i think the latter.

have to say its the news of the world reporter bein made a fool of there... i saw no evidence of him singing anything sectarian anyway, total sensationalism.

The Harp Awakes
17-12-2009, 12:07 AM
settle doon, he sang a bit of a song, n gave the crowd some entertainment, so fair play.

pc gone mad, non story.

Time to get you tin hat on, there you are:tin hat:

:greengrin

sambajustice
17-12-2009, 12:09 AM
but is it sectarianism? or is it a few folk havin a few beers n having a laugh. i think the latter.

have to say its the news of the world reporter bein made a fool of there... i saw no evidence of him singing anything sectarian anyway, total sensationalism.

:crazy:

You on the wind up?

Baader
17-12-2009, 12:15 AM
but is it sectarianism? or is it a few folk havin a few beers n having a laugh. i think the latter.

have to say its the news of the world reporter bein made a fool of there... i saw no evidence of him singing anything sectarian anyway, total sensationalism.

I think if you look at the lyrics and context Rangers fans use Derry's Walls with it's 'fight and don't surrender' chorus you'll deduce it's no quite 'Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah.' They'll argue it's no sectarian (they always do) but could you imagine them walking through the town centre of Belfast, or Derry even, singing that?

Dick obviously has his own issue regarding this otherwise he'd just admit to singing a ditty. No time for News of the World by the way... :thumbsup:

lucky
17-12-2009, 12:16 AM
If he sung that in Scotland then he could be arrested. Sectarianism is unacceptable in any format. Forfar should sack him and the SFA should ban him. But we all know they wont.

Removed
17-12-2009, 12:26 AM
I just saw that video for the first time even though I heard the story the other day. I must say I am shocked, not because of what was sung tbh but that a well respected scottish manager is daft enough to act in that manner and allow it to be videoed.

It wasn't as if it was a crappy video on a covert camera either, I mean it was fairly good quality and it was clear what he was saying and singing. Surely he must have known it was being recorded. In fact there was even a guy videoing on his phone in the crowd.

I don't know what punishment can be brought against him but imo it should be strong & swift - in addition to him resigning immediately.

(((Fergus)))
17-12-2009, 12:31 AM
This anti-sectarian stuff is just trying to sweep the matter under the carpet. It doesn't address the reasons why people want to sing these songs.

libernian
17-12-2009, 12:32 AM
Time to get you tin hat on, there you are:tin hat:

:greengrin

well you can shove this in yer pipe son,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/f/forfar_athletic/8411000.stm


you can have it back now neebs :tin hat:

Removed
17-12-2009, 12:37 AM
well you can shove this in yer pipe son,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/f/forfar_athletic/8411000.stm


you can have it back now neebs :tin hat:

So how come the BBC report is totally at odds with what we saw & heard on the video :confused:

Looks like as well as being a bigot, Campbell is a liar

libernian
17-12-2009, 12:44 AM
So how come the BBC report is totally at odds with what we saw & heard on the video :confused:

Looks like as well as being a bigot, Campbell is a liar

think he was just havin a bit of banter (and the notw writes a heap of *****). hes one of the few characters left, was daft tho.

ballengeich
17-12-2009, 01:03 AM
He might have been covering up for his brother.:greengrin

Allant1981
17-12-2009, 01:21 AM
think he was just havin a bit of banter (and the notw writes a heap of *****). hes one of the few characters left, was daft tho.


Doesnt matter if they write *****, it was filmed and you can clearly hear him

hibeemark
17-12-2009, 01:27 AM
I'm afraid I don't get too offended by this type of thing. The apparent story is essentially a bunch of beered-up Rangers fans singing some "naughty" songs together. Not like football fans, is it?

Folk get on their high horses far too easily about this type of thing, in my opinion. We're not Celtic fans, so we shouldn't feel we have to come out with all the faux outrage.

"Up to our knees in fenian blood"... do you honestly believe folk singing that are advocating violence towards catholics? :dunno:

There's a huge difference between the real problem (institutionalised persecution of Irish immigrants in Scotland), and some drunken tubes singing a song. Get over it. You might as well say "Flower of Scotland" is xenophobic. :blah:

Genuine sectarianism is of course something we don't want in our society, any more than we want racism or homophobia. But this kind of public scapegoating seems entirely irrelevant to that. When was the last time you read about sectarianism in a paper, and it wasn't concerning football fans singing a song? It always is. These days it's never someone getting beaten up, or being ruled out of a job, because they were catholic.

Education and responsible parenting are of course the keys to dispelling that kind of genuine prejudice. It's just that criticising football fans from opposing sides of the Old Firm is of more interest to your average tabloid reader. :hmmm:

I certainly wouldn't take any lessons on bigotry from the News of the World, either. Jesus. :faf:

monktonharp
17-12-2009, 01:35 AM
he should be punted ....pronto. and IMHO mcgregor ,or who ever the chairman o' Forfar is, is a complete LOON for trying to defend him. same ludge?:grr:

gogse
17-12-2009, 03:12 AM
I'm afraid I don't get too offended by this type of thing. The apparent story is essentially a bunch of beered-up Rangers fans singing some "naughty" songs together. Not like football fans, is it?

Folk get on their high horses far too easily about this type of thing, in my opinion. We're not Celtic fans, so we shouldn't feel we have to come out with all the faux outrage.

"Up to our knees in fenian blood"... do you honestly believe folk singing that are advocating violence towards catholics? :dunno:

There's a huge difference between the real problem (institutionalised persecution of Irish immigrants in Scotland), and some drunken tubes singing a song. Get over it. You might as well say "Flower of Scotland" is xenophobic. :blah:

Genuine sectarianism is of course something we don't want in our society, any more than we want racism or homophobia. But this kind of public scapegoating seems entirely irrelevant to that. When was the last time you read about sectarianism in a paper, and it wasn't concerning football fans singing a song? It always is. These days it's never someone getting beaten up, or being ruled out of a job, because they were catholic.

Education and responsible parenting are of course the keys to dispelling that kind of genuine prejudice. It's just that criticising football fans from opposing sides of the Old Firm is of more interest to your average tabloid reader. :hmmm:

I certainly wouldn't take any lessons on bigotry from the News of the World, either. Jesus. :faf:



Personally I’m sick of the sectarianism. I have had it first hand (as I’m sure most of us have) from Rangers fans out-with the football stadium or regular banter.

1) While working in Peterhead. Local Peterhead rangers fan (never been to a rangers game in his life) calling me a fenian barsteward (and all the other bile that comes with) because I’m a hibby.
2) On holiday in Spain (a predominately catholic country), as above hibby = fenian :blah:
3) On holiday in Turkey (Muslim country) sitting at the poolside bar with a beautiful view, sunshine and a beer in my hand. I said something like this is paradise. Cue the barrage of dirty Celtic fenian, I corrected the charming west coast countryman by saying I am a hibby, the reply? Dirty fenian barsteward:blah:

The 3 above examples were from total strangers and the two on holiday I had my kids with me.
All 3 put me in an awkward position as I never back down, in truth, there was no need for it.

This ***** has to be driven out for a number of reasons but two I can think of at the moment are…

So the bigots don’t have any reason to turn the football team you support into a religious attack.

So the supporters outside Glasgow (who support these teams because there local team is crap), feel they must support one of these teams because they are either brought up a catholic or a protestant (not choosing a team on its merit regardless of religion).

Truth is, its old and outdated crap.
Nothing wrong with football banter, but when a manager openly encourages this crap while the SFA are trying to stamp it out, seems to just add credence to the billy boys cause.


Oh! And by the way I’m protestant

hibeemark
17-12-2009, 07:14 AM
Personally I’m sick of the sectarianism. I have had it first hand (as I’m sure most of us have) from Rangers fans out-with the football stadium or regular banter.

1) While working in Peterhead. Local Peterhead rangers fan (never been to a rangers game in his life) calling me a fenian barsteward (and all the other bile that comes with) because I’m a hibby.
2) On holiday in Spain (a predominately catholic country), as above hibby = fenian :blah:
3) On holiday in Turkey (Muslim country) sitting at the poolside bar with a beautiful view, sunshine and a beer in my hand. I said something like this is paradise. Cue the barrage of dirty Celtic fenian, I corrected the charming west coast countryman by saying I am a hibby, the reply? Dirty fenian barsteward:blah:

The 3 above examples were from total strangers and the two on holiday I had my kids with me.
All 3 put me in an awkward position as I never back down, in truth, there was no need for it.

This ***** has to be driven out for a number of reasons but two I can think of at the moment are…

So the bigots don’t have any reason to turn the football team you support into a religious attack.

So the supporters outside Glasgow (who support these teams because there local team is crap), feel they must support one of these teams because they are either brought up a catholic or a protestant (not choosing a team on its merit regardless of religion).

Truth is, its old and outdated crap.
Nothing wrong with football banter, but when a manager openly encourages this crap while the SFA are trying to stamp it out, seems to just add credence to the billy boys cause.


Oh! And by the way I’m protestant

I hate folk like that, but it sounds to me as if they were more interested in which football team you supported than your religion? Surely you've had rival fans try to slag you before?

And if a Rangers fan is calling you a fenian, isn't the correct response: "ever heard of Ivan Sproule, mate?" :greengrin

What would bother me is if they were being overly aggressive, but banning songs isn't going to stop testosterone-fuelled young guys having a point to prove. Bams are bams.

Look at it this way - on hibs.net, we call jambos all the names under the sun (many worse than "fenian", surely?), and often we imply they are inferior/******ed/subhuman. At the end of the day though, it's all about playing up to the enjoyable rivalry between us, and there is a line. I've certainly never beaten a stranger up, or harassed them, because of the team they support. Adults that do, have personal problems, don't you think? :crazy:

If you think I'm defending sectarianism, I'm not. I agree their songs are in very poor taste, and that Rangers fans do themselves no favours by singing them, but I still don't see the need for censorship. Or what good it actually does.

In an age when Nick Griffin can appear on Question Time to promote his vile agenda, is this really such a big issue? Isn't how many votes the BNP received in the recent Glasgow by-election a more pressing concern than what football fans sing?

Barney McGrew
17-12-2009, 07:45 AM
I'm afraid I don't get too offended by this type of thing. The apparent story is essentially a bunch of beered-up Rangers fans singing some "naughty" songs together. Not like football fans, is it?

You're right - it's not like football fans. There's only one other club I know of that would soend their evening singing songs that are totally unrelated to either their team, their rivals or even their country. Football fans may sing some pretty close to the bone stuff from time to time, but as far as I'm aware it's only the OF who feel the need to sing about battles in foreign countries 300 odd years ago.

If they had done that in Scotland they could be arrested. It's illegal. It's more than 'naughty'.

Until every person in society in Scotland condemns their behaviour without question, they'll still be able to get away with it because you'll get people who defend them by saying 'they're not that bad really' or 'there's far worse goes on'.

Campbell should be sacked immediately. I can't beleive that Forfar haven't done that already.

hibeemark
17-12-2009, 08:05 AM
Football fans may sing some pretty close to the bone stuff from time to time, but as far as I'm aware it's only the OF who feel the need to sing about battles in foreign countries 300 odd years ago.

Flower of Scotland?


If they had done that in Scotland they could be arrested. It's illegal. It's more than 'naughty'.

Singing a song should never be illegal in a country as liberal and as democratic as ours.


Until every person in society in Scotland condemns their behaviour without question, they'll still be able to get away with it because you'll get people who defend them by saying 'they're not that bad really' or 'there's far worse goes on'.

I just don't believe you can stifle an ideology through censorship. I'm also extremely skeptical of how many football fans who sing these songs actually subscribe to the ideology. I think they just sing the songs out of tradition, and on occasion to wind up their rivals.

Cabbage East
17-12-2009, 08:21 AM
i'm shocked :rolleyes:

Peevemor
17-12-2009, 08:49 AM
As 65bidet said, Campbell was daft to be filmed and caught. I don't care what songs a bunch of dafties sing, but for me he has has let Forfar and their fans down.

blackpoolhibs
17-12-2009, 09:11 AM
You're right - it's not like football fans. There's only one other club I know of that would soend their evening singing songs that are totally unrelated to either their team, their rivals or even their country. Football fans may sing some pretty close to the bone stuff from time to time, but as far as I'm aware it's only the OF who feel the need to sing about battles in foreign countries 300 odd years ago.

If they had done that in Scotland they could be arrested. It's illegal. It's more than 'naughty'.

Until every person in society in Scotland condemns their behaviour without question, they'll still be able to get away with it because you'll get people who defend them by saying 'they're not that bad really' or 'there's far worse goes on'.

Campbell should be sacked immediately. I can't beleive that Forfar haven't done that already.

:top marks :agree:

sambajustice
17-12-2009, 09:25 AM
This "Rangers banter" is rife amongst the Yams support as well and dont let anyone tell you different.

As for Dick, (what an appropriate name) fans are getting banned from football grounds for singing such songs so i dont see why he should be any different, especially as he's meant to be a role model (of sorts).

At the end of the day though, will it make any difference if he gets banned or whatever? The answer is no! People will still sing their songs regardless of how many people get banned from football grounds!

Therefore Let The People Sing... :devil: :stirrer:

JackRegan
17-12-2009, 09:41 AM
Derry's Walls :greengrin is not a Sectarian Song.

BTW it was sung in an irish bar, who's very same owner doubled the price of his drink for Celtic fans in 2003 (As it happens the Irish guy who owned a bar in Copenhagen in 2006 reduced his)

Anyway, A big hun sings a hun song in a pub full of huns. Shockeroonie.

SMall stuff and I hope he keeps his job as Forfar Manager. :wink:

Phil D. Rolls
17-12-2009, 10:15 AM
settle doon, he sang a bit of a song, n gave the crowd some entertainment, so fair play.

pc gone mad, non story.

I'm not entirely sure that Campbell has committed the hanging offence that some on here are making out. How the hell is it PC gone mad though?

Is this a new version of "awwww it's no fair"? It seems to me that whenever people don't agree with the fact that others don't like something, they come out with this "spoilsport" type rhetoric.

What century do you live in?

New Corrie
17-12-2009, 11:05 AM
I just love the moral high ground stuff. Football fans sing about Papes, Prods, Refugees, Poor people, dead people, Gays, Blacks, Child molestors etc etc...........and now it merits a sacking apparrantly! Well all the football fans that I know, would lose their jobs if this is now a sacking offence. I just can't grasp how easily offended some people are, I think it must be an internet thing because when i'm socialising with the many football fans I know....anything goes! and I don't see many tears getting shed!

Thicker skins required me thinks.

Keith_M
17-12-2009, 11:16 AM
That's twice in this single thread that I've heard the tired old 'but Flower of Scotland is just as bad' story that the OF fans throw at you.


Please can one of you explain to me which part of Flower of Scotland is offensive, why and to whom?


Or are you just parrots, repeating the same tired reply that you've heard others come out with?

Baader
17-12-2009, 12:19 PM
If 'anything goes' at the football who's going to defend people's right to make monkey noises?

Sectarianism is a deep rooted problem in Scottish society - the working man's disease - and is a slight on the way people perceive Scotland. Don't fall for the 'I'm no a bigot really even though I sing these songs', 90 minute bigot excuse. It's lame. People who do belt them out should at least have the conviction to admit their views. It's pretty endemic of the way we don't like to address it in this country and why it will still be around for generations to come. Never said Dick should lose his job, just don't like the way it is passed off all too easily as a laugh or a bit of banter.

Just cause it's been around in fitba for a long time doesn't mean it should be in future. Too many of us are just tired of hearing it.

Keith_M
17-12-2009, 12:24 PM
If 'anything goes' at the football who's going to defend people's right to make monkey noises?

Sectarianism is a deep rooted problem in Scottish society - the working man's disease - and is a slight on the way people perceive Scotland. Don't fall for the 'I'm no a bigot really even though I sing these songs', 90 minute bigot excuse. It's lame. People who do belt them out should at least have the conviction to admit their views. It's pretty endemic of the way we don't like to address it in this country and why it will still be around for generations to come. Never said Dick should lose his job, just don't like the way it is passed off all too easily as a laugh or a bit of banter.

Just cause it's been around in fitba for a long time doesn't mean it should be in future. Too many of us are just tired of hearing it.


:top marks

Green Mikey
17-12-2009, 12:30 PM
Derry's Walls :greengrin is not a Sectarian Song.

BTW it was sung in an irish bar, who's very same owner doubled the price of his drink for Celtic fans in 2003 (As it happens the Irish guy who owned a bar in Copenhagen in 2006 reduced his)

Anyway, A big hun sings a hun song in a pub full of huns. Shockeroonie.

SMall stuff and I hope he keeps his job as Forfar Manager. :wink:

Small stuff indeed. If this type of behaviour by Rangers fans is punished it would set a precendent when it come to Celtic's sectarianism and you wouldn't want that.

Northern Hibby
17-12-2009, 12:53 PM
I think I'll pull up a fence here, I have sung songs & told jokes in the past that I would not want my mother or children to hear, I live a completely non violent, non sectarian, non racist life, as my old man told my "Irrespective of race creed or colour, if a bloke stands his hand he's ok" but at a football match What do I call the people over there, how do I let them know I'm singing about them, I know people say we should sing songs about our own team but part of being a Hibs fan is not being a fan of any other team and letting them know it. I have read all the above posts and agree with them all, am I a hypocrite? probably but then I think we all are to some extent.

Phil D. Rolls
17-12-2009, 01:00 PM
That's twice in this single thread that I've heard the tired old 'but Flower of Scotland is just as bad' story that the OF fans throw at you.


Please can one of you explain to me which part of Flower of Scotland is offensive, why and to whom?


Or are you just parrots, repeating the same tired reply that you've heard others come out with?

I keep going over the lyrics of that song to find any way it could be considered to be anti English or anything else. It is about turning back an English invasion, and Scotland asserting its right to be independent.

How a song of freedom can be twisted into being something else is beyond me. Furthermore, people weren't blowing each other up ten years ago over this issue. So to say that singing songs about the Ulster Troubles is the same as singing a song about something that happened 1000 years ago is stretching things a bit.

By this logic "We Shall Overcome" and "This Land is My Land" (Woody Guthrie's lyrics) are also offensive songs.

Sectarian songs are as much part of the ongoing tension between communities as collecting tins for para-military groups in pubs. To say they are harmless banter is missing the point. They are nasty confrontational songs.

Phil MaGlass
17-12-2009, 01:18 PM
Cannae believe there are people defending this sectarian pi5h,are these the same folk who would go to a Hibs game and sing IRA songs? Just what part of a sectarian song is PC.WTF?. have we gone mad.This should not and must not be tolerated by any of us and certainly not the SFA.Its a f-----g cancer in Scottish fitba and its been here too long,theres no room for these muppets in OUR game, anymore,dinosaurs the lot of them.
And for god sake get a grip, flower o Scotland is offensive, am I reading this correctly, I wouldnt be surprised if the idiots saying flower o Scotland is offensive are the same twa15 that dont support or go to Scotland games,same old, same old from these oxygen thieves.:asshole::asshole:

sambajustice
17-12-2009, 02:01 PM
God Save the King/Queen is Sectarian going on about crushing rebellious scots and the like!!

And you get dafty Scots crying on podiums at Olympics and stuff when that is getting belted out! A nonsense!

Baader
17-12-2009, 02:09 PM
God Save the King/Queen is Sectarian going on about crushing rebellious scots and the like!!

That's because the whole Monarchy is sectarian. Act of Settlement and all that...
:stirrer:
:greengrin

munchar
17-12-2009, 02:14 PM
[QUOTE=The Story So Far...;2277113]Dick Campbell was caught on video in Seville leading a pub full of Rangers fans in Derry's Walls, followed by the group of fans belting out the Sash (with add-ons), yet still had the audacity to claim he wasn't singing despite this (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/scottish/scottish_news/636029/****-Campbell-is-caught-on-film-leading-Rangers-fans-in-Loyalist-anthem.html) video of him being clear as day.

Cause for him being landed in hot-water, as he's manager of an SFL football team, or should it just be ignored and passed off as "another idiot bigot"?

Discuss!

I think the point that everyone is missing, is that this is NOT a Rangers song, it is an IRISH song. 100% NOTHING to do with football. So if it was just banter amongst fans, why is he denying singing it? By all means, sing a Rangers song with the fans, (is there any?), but a man of his position & experience should have known better. He is now an open target for opposing fans, & left his employers in a difficult position. This is one of the reasons people despise the old firm. Singing these songs are not fun, its sectarian bigotry that the majority of them know nothing about, & give the decent fans a bad name. Makes me proud to be a Hibby.

Phil D. Rolls
17-12-2009, 02:32 PM
That's because the whole Monarchy is sectarian. Act of Settlement and all that...
:stirrer:
:greengrin

Any organisation that bars people from joining on religious it is sectarian. When did we last have a Protestant pope?:greengrin Come to think of it, when have you ever heard of a Protestant head master at a Catholic school?

(Just thought this :stirrer: needed a bit more help).

JackRegan
17-12-2009, 03:35 PM
Small stuff indeed. If this type of behaviour by Rangers fans is punished it would set a precendent when it come to Celtic's sectarianism and you wouldn't want that.

Derry's Walls is not a Sectarian Song, so why would the huns be punished?

they are not singling out any particular group, so I don't see what the problem is. Besides it was sung in a pub full of them. Do you want to ban that?

No-one is being offended here apart from those going out their way to be offended

hibeemark
17-12-2009, 04:09 PM
That's twice in this single thread that I've heard the tired old 'but Flower of Scotland is just as bad' story that the OF fans throw at you.


Please can one of you explain to me which part of Flower of Scotland is offensive, why and to whom?


Or are you just parrots, repeating the same tired reply that you've heard others come out with?

Barney McGrew was saying he thought songs that are not about football, shouldn't be sung at matches. Especially those about military battles over 300 years ago. Flower of Scotland fits the criteria. That was all.

Of course it's entirely possible too, that a song which is essentially about keeping the English out of Scotland might offend some of our southern friends who have migrated here, especially when the verses are punctuated with "guess who?" and "basturds!" as they often are.


If 'anything goes' at the football who's going to defend people's right to make monkey noises?

Apples and oranges (pun not intended :wink:). A stand full of white supporters singling out a black player because of the colour of his skin, is completely different from a bunch of plastic paddys exchanging archaic folk songs with their Rangers counterparts... both of them cheering on two teams of mixed race, mixed nationality, and mixed religion, based entirely on the colour of their strip.


How a song of freedom can be twisted into being something else is beyond me. Furthermore, people weren't blowing each other up ten years ago over this issue. So to say that singing songs about the Ulster Troubles is the same as singing a song about something that happened 1000 years ago is stretching things a bit.

For me, the most compelling argument against allowing sectarian songs to be sung is that by singing them, folk are effectively endorsing and encouraging terrorism. This would be more relevant during The Troubles, of course.

The point I'm trying to get across, Filled Rolls, is that if you say something should be banned, you can't just say "because it offends me" or "because it offends group A". Offense alone is not enough of a reason. Why? Because offense is often caused by disgust, and disgust is historically a poor moral compass - people have used disgust to justify banning all sorts of things that offended them, from homosexuality to abortion.

So although the knee-jerk reaction may be "those disgusting Rangers fans, singing their disgusting songs about fenian blood... let's ban them", I think it's important to also weigh up how much harm singing the songs actually does versus how important freedom of expression is to our society. If the benefits of being able to sing what you like at a football match outweigh the negative effects of the song being sung, then surely there's no problem?


To say they are harmless banter is missing the point. They are nasty confrontational songs.Yes, but so are a lot of football songs. In Your Glasgow Slums is confrontational too, and has nothing to do with the game. If anything, it makes mockery of the very real poverty that exists in Glasgow. Would you ban that too? I wouldn't.

Killiehibbie
17-12-2009, 04:24 PM
Who really cares what a baldy auld hun sings in a pub full of huns?

McHibby
17-12-2009, 04:36 PM
Derry's Walls is not a Sectarian Song, so why would the huns be punished?

they are not singling out any particular group, so I don't see what the problem is. Besides it was sung in a pub full of them. Do you want to ban that?

No-one is being offended here apart from those going out their way to be offended

I think, although I could be wrong, that the Rangers fans change some of the words in the song to make it offensive.

Joe Baker II
17-12-2009, 05:09 PM
The point I'm trying to get across, Filled Rolls, is that if you say something should be banned, you can't just say "because it offends me" or "because it offends group A". Offense alone is not enough of a reason. Why? Because offense is often caused by disgust, and disgust is historically a poor moral compass - people have used disgust to justify banning all sorts of things that offended them, from homosexuality to abortion.

So although the knee-jerk reaction may be "those disgusting Rangers fans, singing their disgusting songs about fenian blood... let's ban them", I think it's important to also weigh up how much harm singing the songs actually does versus how important freedom of expression is to our society. If the benefits of being able to sing what you like at a football match outweigh the negative effects of the song being sung, then surely there's no problem?

Yes, but so are a lot of football songs. In Your Glasgow Slums is confrontational too, and has nothing to do with the game. If anything, it makes mockery of the very real poverty that exists in Glasgow. Would you ban that too? I wouldn't.

Excellent points here on freedom of expression, I suspect that the easily offended idiots will not listen though.

Incidentally I do not have problem with the Glasgow Slums song but I would have thought it is significantly more offensive than Derry's Walls. What people may have missed from the actual article in NOTW is an accompanying piece (not on the web) pointing out that Derry's Walls saying it has zero offensive content and at it is clear at no time did Campbell added any other words.

So a total non-story and well done to Forfar for taking no action. Only regret is Campbell felt need to apologise.

Brizo
17-12-2009, 05:30 PM
According to the paper I read Campbells wifes a Catholic and his three kids have all been brought up as Catholics. Ample punishment would be if she withdraws the old conjugal rights for the festive period and if his bairns give him the square root of a forfar bridie for his Christmas.

Based on that fact that all his family are signed up followers of papery japery I cant believe hes a bigot .... just a bit of a dick.

Phil D. Rolls
18-12-2009, 09:50 AM
For me, the most compelling argument against allowing sectarian songs to be sung is that by singing them, folk are effectively endorsing and encouraging terrorism. This would be more relevant during The Troubles, of course.

The point I'm trying to get across, Filled Rolls, is that if you say something should be banned, you can't just say "because it offends me" or "because it offends group A". Offense alone is not enough of a reason. Why? Because offense is often caused by disgust, and disgust is historically a poor moral compass - people have used disgust to justify banning all sorts of things that offended them, from homosexuality to abortion.

So although the knee-jerk reaction may be "those disgusting Rangers fans, singing their disgusting songs about fenian blood... let's ban them", I think it's important to also weigh up how much harm singing the songs actually does versus how important freedom of expression is to our society. If the benefits of being able to sing what you like at a football match outweigh the negative effects of the song being sung, then surely there's no problem?



You are making a lot of assumptions about what other people think. Disgust might be a reason why people are offended or hurt by songs. Fear, guilt and shame are also reasons. It seems to me that whenever this issue of offense comes up, people decide what offends them and then transfer that onto others.

"If I'm not offended then how can anyone else be", seems to be the thinking. That is very disrespectful to others, and amounts to moral fascism in my mind. Some say that those who can't see their point of view are nothing more than idiots. Says more about them than anyone else IMO.

It's good manners, if not common sense, to listen to those around you and try to make them feel comfortable - wherever that is possible. So if someone says they are offended by a song, then it is sensible to consider banning it, to keep the peace. People can do what they want, as long as they don't harm others is a sensible philopsophy.

I don't agree with the argument that allowing people to sing the songs is actually a positive thing as it lets them let off steam. I think if the OF had not existed, then the sectarian issue in this country would have disappeared years ago.

At the same time, we need some perspective. I don't think the guy should lose his job over it, I don't think we should be arresting every sad no mark from a depressed town in central Scotland, who can't see anything better in their lives than fitting in with values that the civilised world abandoned decades ago. Their worst crimes to me are stupidity, ignorance and insecurity.

It's time we started laughing at these people, instead of treating them as if they were freedom fighters, or defenders of old values. Taking them seriously only encourages them to keep going. Wee men like them need attention to keep themselves going, and every time there is a moral outrage over their behaviour, it justifies their sad existence just that bit more.

Dashing Bob S
18-12-2009, 02:15 PM
Fat ugly bald prick is Hun worshipping bigot. Whatever next?

blackpoolhibs
18-12-2009, 02:48 PM
Fat ugly bald prick is Hun worshipping bigot. Whatever next?

Judith Chalmers has applied for a new passport.

jgl07
18-12-2009, 04:27 PM
God Save the King/Queen is Sectarian going on about crushing rebellious scots and the like!!

That particular verse was abandoned shortly after 1745!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen

marinello59
18-12-2009, 05:04 PM
That particular verse was abandoned shortly after 1745!


Exactly. A temporary appendage at worst. Has anybody EVER heard that verse sung anywhere? The only time it is mentioned is by us Scots to demonstrate some other non-existent discrimination towards ourselves.

gerry70
18-12-2009, 07:54 PM
on the surface, it looks like a total open and shut case of a bigot.

but he has a catholic wife and three catholic kids.

so nobody really gives a crap about religion do they? it's just about your team.

what a strange country scotland is.

Green_one
18-12-2009, 08:33 PM
Excellent points here on freedom of expression, I suspect that the easily offended idiots will not listen though.

Only regret is Campbell felt need to apologise.

Campbell lied well before he ever apologised. Because even a fool like him (and he must be a fool to stand up in a public bar being filmed and do that) manages to see its not a good thing. Unlike you. I am listening to you but its not because I am an idiot that I do not see your arguement.

Apologist for a bigot. Well done you.

Freedom of expression - ah right:blah::blah:

Green_one
18-12-2009, 08:53 PM
That particular verse was abandoned shortly after 1745!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen

I wish people would stop believing wikipedia. How would anyone know when it was abandoned? It could have been sung in music halls for decades. Until it was used as the official national anthem in the late 17th century and that version was published? And who would know if the verse was ever used after that? In reality the tune seldom gets past the first verse. To be frank its because its crap. 'knavish tricks' - what the f****?

Would prefer the French type anthum, though the words of it are also totally lost in a modern context. Billy Connolly jokingly suggested the tune to the Archers. I could live with that.

Bishop Hibee
18-12-2009, 09:08 PM
Campbell comes across as a slavering drunk rather than a bigot in this vid.

I agree that "Derry's Walls', while not No1 in the Hibees chart, is not in itself sectarian as there is no mention of religion.

Hun bams screaming '**** the Pope' though :bitchy: Douse them with Holy Water to shut them up :devil:

Rasta_Hibs
18-12-2009, 09:12 PM
I hate folk like that, but it sounds to me as if they were more interested in which football team you supported than your religion? Surely you've had rival fans try to slag you before?

And if a Rangers fan is calling you a fenian, isn't the correct response: "ever heard of Ivan Sproule, mate?" :greengrin

What would bother me is if they were being overly aggressive, but banning songs isn't going to stop testosterone-fuelled young guys having a point to prove. Bams are bams.

Look at it this way - on hibs.net, we call jambos all the names under the sun (many worse than "fenian", surely?), and often we imply they are inferior/******ed/subhuman. At the end of the day though, it's all about playing up to the enjoyable rivalry between us, and there is a line. I've certainly never beaten a stranger up, or harassed them, because of the team they support. Adults that do, have personal problems, don't you think? :crazy:

If you think I'm defending sectarianism, I'm not. I agree their songs are in very poor taste, and that Rangers fans do themselves no favours by singing them, but I still don't see the need for censorship. Or what good it actually does.

In an age when Nick Griffin can appear on Question Time to promote his vile agenda, is this really such a big issue? Isn't how many votes the BNP received in the recent Glasgow by-election a more pressing concern than what football fans sing?

It's not acceptable to sing sectarian songs thought is it?

Sectarianism is alive and well in this country and by letting people indulge in the descrimation of others encourages the problem!

This is not acceptable and he should be sacked!

New Corrie
19-12-2009, 10:22 AM
It's not acceptable to sing sectarian songs thought is it?

Sectarianism is alive and well in this country and by letting people indulge in the descrimation of others encourages the problem!

This is not acceptable and he should be sacked!

So, I take it Deeks should be sacked aswell over his "refugee song" incident then?

Or is this just more "selective" outrage that football message boards breed? Going by the suggested Yardstick, we would all be sacked (apart from FR of course).

Rasta_Hibs
19-12-2009, 10:36 AM
So, I take it Deeks should be sacked aswell over his "refugee song" incident then?

Or is this just more "selective" outrage that football message boards breed? Going by the suggested Yardstick, we would all be sacked (apart from FR of course).

Well to be honest no!

I'm not Derek's boss and maybe when Derek Sang he could still be termed yound and daft.

Dick Campbell is supposed to be older and wiser to know sectarism is not acceptable! But no he indulges in it and shows him up to be a stinking old bigot like most of these huns, keep it under wraps till they are in numbers then its hating everything and everyone catholic!!!

New Corrie
19-12-2009, 11:01 AM
Well to be honest no!

I'm not Derek's boss and maybe when Derek Sang he could still be termed yound and daft.

Dick Campbell is supposed to be older and wiser to know sectarism is not acceptable! But no he indulges in it and shows him up to be a stinking old bigot like most of these huns, keep it under wraps till they are in numbers then its hating everything and everyone catholic!!!

What, but you are Campbell's boss though are you?

So racism is acceptable if you are "young and daft" but singing Derry's walls is a sacking offence. Aye, very good!

Rasta_Hibs
19-12-2009, 11:22 AM
What, but you are Campbell's boss though are you?

So racism is acceptable if you are "young and daft" but singing Derry's walls is a sacking offence. Aye, very good!

If i was Dicks boss and would make him pledge an oath never to sing songs with sectarian leanings as it may offend the catholic people who he works with.

Well i think its more understandable if someone is young and daft and sings songs that they shouldnt.

To be honest with you i just find him a digusting wee hun that has been shown up for what he is! Like Donald Findlay etc. What gets me about these people they only ever sing songs like these when they are together or behind closed doors, you dont hear them singing anti-catholic songs any other time.

Could you imagine if a Catholic had walked in the pub at that moment, Dick leading the cry of no Surrender, ***** the pope and all the favourites. How do you think the catholic would feel, how do you think the majority of the people in the pub would feel towards a known catholic?

would i sack him? Now i have had time to think about it, i wouldnt sack him so easily for singing such a song. Maybe taking the mans job is a step to far and comes down a bit to hard on him.

Id just treat him like the i do with the rest of the huns and catholic haters with utter contempt and pity!

Hibby Kay-Yay
19-12-2009, 11:30 AM
to be honest, he won't make boot camp with that voice

New Corrie
19-12-2009, 11:35 AM
If i was Dicks boss and would make him pledge an oath never to sing songs with sectarian leanings as it may offend the catholic people who he works with.

Well i think its more understandable if someone is young and daft and sings songs that they shouldnt.

To be honest with you i just find him a digusting wee hun that has been shown up for what he is! Like Donald Findlay etc. What gets me about these people they only ever sing songs like these when they are together or behind closed doors, you dont hear them singing anti-catholic songs any other time.

Could you imagine if a Catholic had walked in the pub at that moment, Dick leading the cry of no Surrender, ***** the pope and all the favourites. How do you think the catholic would feel, how do you think the majority of the people in the pub would feel towards a known catholic?

would i sack him? Now i have had time to think about it, i wouldnt sack him so easily for singing such a song. Maybe taking the mans job is a step to far and comes down a bit to hard on him.

Id just treat him like the i do with the rest of the huns and catholic haters with utter contempt and pity!


You are talking absolute sheite, make him pledge an oath! Catholic haters, disgusting Huns, defending racists.......it's you that's coming accross as a disgusting bigot.

Rasta_Hibs
19-12-2009, 11:41 AM
You are talking absolute sheite, make him pledge an oath! Catholic haters, disgusting Huns, defending racists.......it's you that's coming accross as a disgusting bigot.

How am i defending racists?

I have not said it was acceptable for Derek to sing the song. I said it was more understandable in my opinion as he could be said to be young and daft.

I cant stand huns and for that i make no appolgy! Not because they are protestant but because they are huns and on whole huns discriminate against catholics and are Catholic Haters?

Dick was playing up to the Hun element with his crys of where his allegencies lie etc A hun plain and simple! Full of bevy and just choking to shout F the Pope!

Well aye, its pledge an oath to abandon your hun'ish ways dick or face the sack! Your choice dicky boy!

New Corrie
19-12-2009, 12:09 PM
How am i defending racists?

I have not said it was acceptable for Derek to sing the song. I said it was more understandable in my opinion as he could be said to be young and daft.

I cant stand huns and for that i make no appolgy! Not because they are protestant but because they are huns and on whole huns discriminate against catholics and are Catholic Haters?

Dick was playing up to the Hun element with his crys of where his allegencies lie etc A hun plain and simple! Full of bevy and just choking to shout F the Pope!

Well aye, its pledge an oath to abandon your hun'ish ways dick or face the sack! Your choice dicky boy!

Dick Campbell is that much of a Catholic hater that he married one.

--------
19-12-2009, 12:14 PM
Any organisation that bars people from joining on religious it is sectarian. When did we last have a Protestant pope?:greengrin Come to think of it, when have you ever heard of a Protestant head master at a Catholic school?

(Just thought this :stirrer: needed a bit more help).

Non-Catholic teachers in Roman Catholic schools (the few there are) are very unlikely to be promoted. In fact, to all intents and purposes it just doesn't happen. Somehow equal-opportunities legislation doesn't seem to take effect in these schools.

Non-denominational schools, however, have to operate on an equal-opportunities basis, so there are plenty of Catholic teachers in promoted posts in non-denominational schools.

At least, that's the way it is in the Diocese of Motherwell - sorry, I should say the North Lanarkshire Council area, though sometimes it's hard to work out just who calls the shots, the Council or the Bishop....



According to the paper I read Campbells wifes a Catholic and his three kids have all been brought up as Catholics. Ample punishment would be if she withdraws the old conjugal rights for the festive period and if his bairns give him the square root of a forfar bridie for his Christmas.

Based on that fact that all his family are signed up followers of papery japery I cant believe hes a bigot .... just a bit of a dick.

Scotland has too many "decent" families and "decent" people who manage to live together quietly and happily, yet still embrace this culture of sectarianism. They tell you they don't really believe it - it's a cultural thing, they have lots of friends who are Catholic/ Protestant/ whatever, they wouldn't actually personally burn a church/ chapel/ Orange Hall/ AOH Hall/ Rangers Supporters Club/ Celtic Supporters Club/ whatever - it's just a cultural thing, a wee bit of fun. And of course, we all have "fredom of expression", don't we?

Too many "Scots" feed on a war that ended 300 years ago to give their sad and sorry lives some shape and identity. Two leading Scottish football teams - one parades around Europe touting the Union Flag and making like Scotland doesn't exist except as a county of England, and the other one is essentially Irish - and Irish in a particularly poisonously sectarian way.

"Decent" people singing or tolerating these songs simply perpetuate the divisions in Scottish society. They encourage the neds of both poisonous sectarian enclaves to go on shouting their insults and singing those same songs - for real.

The depressing thing is that the older guys on both sides keep it going, and the teenagers and kids buy into it because that's the only way they can make any sort of identity for themselves.

Dick Campbell is the paid employee of an SFL club, a member-club in the SFA. As such he should be called to account.

But what's in that video is no worse than stuff that happens every week in Orange Halls, AOH Halls, and Rangers and Celtic Supporters Clubs all over Scotland (and elsewhere in the world) every week.