Referees - different mindset

[JimBHibees]

Was watching the Spanish highlights show on Sky and there was an open discussion about in Spain 3 or 4 refs who regularly favour the big teams in games against the smaller teams. The guys (Graham Hunter and Guillem Balague) were very open about it and accepted it as a given, seems odd that whenever anything like this is discussed in Scotland it is totally denied as not being possible. :greengrin:

[Argylehibby]

O'Neil admitted when he went to Aston Villa that the big teams get the decisions but nobody in the press had the guts to explore the story and ask him if he then felt that he got favours while at the tic.

[Alan62]

Have to say that this notion is a load of nonsense.

The 'big' teams have better players. They spend more time in their opponents' half of the field and they do tend to get more fouls - usually, again, because their players are trickier and the wee teams resort to desperate attempts to stop them playing.

The top players are also better at cheating the ref, disguising their own fouls and throwing themselves down with consumate skill under the tiniest of challenges from bemused defenders. The big teams are also fitter. They keep running long after the little guys have run out of steam and resorted again to fouling. And the big teams have more fans - and that undoubtedly shifts the whole mood in the stadium.

All of these factors will have an influence on the ref but it doesn't make the referee biased. Referees will try to do the best job that they can within the obvious limitations of being surrounded by players who will cheat when they can and, of course, just being human and making the odd mistake. Remember, if there is doubt, the referee is INSTRUCTED to favour the attacking player so that's more likely to benefit the big team.

[JimBHibees]

Have to say that this notion is a load of nonsense.

The 'big' teams have better players. They spend more time in their opponents' half of the field and they do tend to get more fouls - usually, again, because their players are trickier and the wee teams resort to desperate attempts to stop them playing.

The top players are also better at cheating the ref, disguising their own fouls and throwing themselves down with consumate skill under the tiniest of challenges from bemused defenders. The big teams are also fitter. They keep running long after the little guys have run out of steam and resorted again to fouling. And the big teams have more fans - and that undoubtedly shifts the whole mood in the stadium.

All of these factors will have an influence on the ref but it doesn't make the referee biased. Referees will try to do the best job that they can within the obvious limitations of being surrounded by players who will cheat when they can and, of course, just being human and making the odd mistake. Remember, if there is doubt, the referee is INSTRUCTED to favour the attacking player so that's more likely to benefit the big team.

I think the notion that refs arent capable of being biased is nonsense also. Alot of what you say is true however there are some guys who have never given decisions against certain teams, McCurry and Rangers being an example. There are also lots of occasions when refs appear to be intimidated by a big crowd shouting for a pen when they wouldnt have normally given it.

[euro Hibby]

Followed football for a long time and you will never convince me that football is 100 % straight. Just need to think about the recent Thierry Henry foul which stank of big team verus little team.

Years back I remember many many strangethings happening in Hibs game verus Celtic and Rangers. The famous stopping of the game at Parkhead with Hibs leading 2-0 and top of the league with 10 minutes remaining.
Then there are the many stories of referee conventions where after a few bevvies a few have been heard singing some very naughty songs. No names because it remains heresay.


I could go on.......... Have to say though it happens in all countries. For the most part I think refs try to do a good job but they are human and they do have their preferences. !

[ancient hibee]

I think that when 45000 shout for a penalty it must be very difficult not to find yourself agreeing with them.

[Hibercelona]

I think that when 45000 shout for a penalty it must be very difficult not to find yourself agreeing with them.

Scottish referees do a fantastic job though.

Even 400,000 fans shouting for a penalty isn't enough to make the ref bottle it. :wink:

[seanshow]

Yeah I also remember Martin O'Neil saying that.
It's not until they are in the small club situation that it becomes a lot more apparent to them.
Tony Mowbray also hinted at having similar thoughts about spl referee's when he left us...wonder how he feels about it now :cool2:
You can see the 60/40 decisions quite clearly in the EPL and La Liga going one way all the time.

I happen to think we are getting our fair share of the decisions at the moment so who knows......

[hibeemark]

Have to say that this notion is a load of nonsense.

The 'big' teams have better players. They spend more time in their opponents' half of the field and they do tend to get more fouls - usually, again, because their players are trickier and the wee teams resort to desperate attempts to stop them playing.

The top players are also better at cheating the ref, disguising their own fouls and throwing themselves down with consumate skill under the tiniest of challenges from bemused defenders. The big teams are also fitter. They keep running long after the little guys have run out of steam and resorted again to fouling. And the big teams have more fans - and that undoubtedly shifts the whole mood in the stadium.

All of these factors will have an influence on the ref but it doesn't make the referee biased. Referees will try to do the best job that they can within the obvious limitations of being surrounded by players who will cheat when they can and, of course, just being human and making the odd mistake. Remember, if there is doubt, the referee is INSTRUCTED to favour the attacking player so that's more likely to benefit the big team.

I agree with what you've said, but I'd also add that the actual standard of refereeing in this country, and their strength of character (or lack of it) seems to play a big part too.

I think what folk often perceive as bias is merely referees being pressured into making decisions by teams with large supports. As much as this will normally give the Old Firm the edge (particularly at Ibrox/Parkhead), there have certainly beeen occasions this season where our home support has exploited this - for example, the game where Benji was awarded a penalty for simply falling over. The referee had missed several incidents prior (including shirt-tugging, even a hand-ball in the box) and he knew it, given the crowd's reaction. I'd say he was then predisposed to giving us the softest of penalties. I expect the huge home (and let's face it, away) attendences the Old Firm command, have this influence all year round.

You might think this level of incompetence is inconceivable, but how many times a season at Easter Road do you see the referee give a corner... realise it should have been a goal kick... so he blows the whistle as soon as the ball comes in, as if there was an infringement (aye, right :grr:). It happens far too often, for my liking.

So no, I don't think bias is really the problem, rather it's the actual standard of refereeing, and their ability to make tough decisions in the face of a partisan crowd, that should be called into question.

A step in the right direction would be the introduction of video refereeing, with each team having a number of challenges a la tennis's "Hawkeye" system. :dunno:

The other thing of course, is how the rules themselves are interpreted, never mind their implimentation on the pitch.

Personally, I can't stand Jim Gannon (who seems to fancy himself as the new Gordon Strachan, with regards bullying journalists, and being a jumped-up defensive wee *****), but what he has highlighted is the gulf in communication between teams, the referees, and the SFA. This seems to extend even to interpretation of the basic rules, regarding fouls and so on.

My understanding is that the referees are instructed to adhere to guidelines provided by the SFA. So therefore, if, for example, Craig Levein is aggrieved that his thugs are being carded every week, perhaps he should examine more closely what the rules set out by the governing body are, because at the end of the day, it's what they consider a foul that matters, not his opinion.

If a referee is seemingly card-happy, not as a result of incompetence, but because he has been instructed by the rules to display zero tolerance to certain behaviours, then the issue is clearly not refereeing per se.

An example where I definitely do disagree with the hardline stance adopted by the governing body, is the rule outlawing gesturing or taking your shirt off after scoring a goal. I mean, who actually cares about that? Are we so bloody-minded that we can't bear to see someone celebrating unreservedly, even at our expense? I think most of us are bigger than that.

Kris Boyd's "truffle shuffle"? I mean, come on. It's understandable outlawing gesturing on religious grounds (sectarianism being a social issue, rather than a sporting one) but when the day comes that players cannot exchange banter with the fans, the game is dead. Boyd wasn't being malicious, and to be perfectly honest, I don't think Deek is when he goads the jambos - if one muppet can't take the joke, that's his problem, not the player's, and certainly not ours.

[Hibs Spain]

Followed football for a long time and you will never convince me that football is 100 % straight. Just need to think about the recent Thierry Henry foul which stank of big team verus little team.

Years back I remember many many strangethings happening in Hibs game verus Celtic and Rangers. The famous stopping of the game at Parkhead with Hibs leading 2-0 and top of the league with 10 minutes remaining.
Then there are the many stories of referee conventions where after a few bevvies a few have been heard singing some very naughty songs. No names because it remains heresay.


I could go on.......... Have to say though it happens in all countries. For the most part I think refs try to do a good job but they are human and they do have their preferences. !You're getting soft...course they are all influenced....Did Sandy tell you I'm in touch with Charles Peter on the Awali Teenagers site?

[snooky]

Yeah I also remember Martin O'Neil saying that.
It's not until they are in the small club situation that it becomes a lot more apparent to them.
Tony Mowbray also hinted at having similar thoughts about spl referee's when he left us...wonder how he feels about it now :cool2:
You can see the 60/40 decisions quite clearly in the EPL and La Liga going one way all the time.

I happen to think we are getting our fair share of the decisions at the moment so who knows......

I watch SPL highlights the other night. An Aberdeen player given a straight red (rightly so) for a kick at a celtic player. On the other channel there was McGreedy having a deliberate backheel kick at an opposing player - spotted by the referee who gave McG a yellow card.
The disgraceful sham of fair play in the SPL has been going on for years and years and alas, will continue to do so. :grr: