Festive Cheer for the Yams: Xmas message, Kingston injured and more hoofball (merged)

[GreenCastle]

So all, or something, or nothing will be revealed in February.

Roll on February.

It won't be all...it won't be nothing.....probably the usual something to keep people happy but still with plenty of questions to ask, meaning the who thing keeps dragging on and on :greengrin

[Caversham Green]

There seems to be some confusion between the two, especially on Kickback.

Ukio Bankas is a public company with many hundreds of share holders, all be it that Vlad is the largest at nearly 33%. Hearts are due to repay this Bank £17 million in February or agree a re-financing deal with them.
There is no way a debt/equity deal could be used to remove this debt.

Ukio Bankas hold a 6% stake in UBIG and has lent them a huge wad of cash, so much so, UBIG and Hearts can't be mearged as their joint debt is a greater percentage of Ukio Bankas total lending than is pemitted under Lith. Banking law.

UBIG is a private company and owns about 98% of Hearts share and can do what it wants with the Club and its assets but I don't think it can do anything about the £17 million.

Even in the language of Yamonomics this debt is not due to themselves but to the depositors ( mugs ) in Ukio Bankas and lenders (even bigger mugs ) to the Bank.

Interest is piling up on this debt which is real and will have to be accounted for one day soon. :bye: :bye: :bye:

That's a good point, and one I was forgetting in my replies to Spike. The £17.6m is due to a bank that would/could not take equity in settlement. I doubt if they would take Tynie either so the choice of action is either UBIG setlle the debt (if they have the cash) and add it to the amount HOMFC owe them or UKIO extend the loan (unlikely given the financial position HOMFC are in).

Interesting times ahead.

[Sergey]

That's a good point, and one I was forgetting in my replies to Spike. The £17.6m is due to a bank that would/could not take equity in settlement. I doubt if they would take Tynie either so the choice of action is either UBIG setlle the debt (if they have the cash) and add it to the amount HOMFC owe them or UKIO extend the loan (unlikely given the financial position HOMFC are in).

Interesting times ahead.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that Ukio received a 50,000,000 Lita loan on the very day that UBIG put out the email to supporters.

Ukio Loan (http://www.nasdaqomxbaltic.com/market/?pg=details&instrument=LT0000102352&list=2&tab=news&news_id=238463)

It seems like a hell of a coincidence and the loan could appease Ukio shareholders should the £17M get transferred to UBIG (for the deeds to Tynecastle).

[Caversham Green]

"It's not really debt because we owe it to ourselves" ------- What a croc of Sh*t.


Your average Yam , sure but more likely aimed at softening up their Auditors, Johnton Carmichael, who issued heavily qualified accounts about 3 months late last time and must be seriously question the wisdom of signing off another set of accounts even for fees of £58,000 as per last accounts.

Have Johnston Carmichael not booted them into touch? I heard that they'd refused to act for Yams after debacle surrounding last set of accounts!!

Something that crossed my mind is that this is stuff they wanted to put in the directors report, but the auditors wouldn't wear it because it has no grounding in reality - in effect what they are doing is pre-empting another adverse audit report.

As far as signing off the accounts goes, the auditor would normally just qualify his report to the extent he deemed necessary rather than refuse to sign. The only case I've been involved with where we could not sign the report was where neither the client company nor its overseas parent could be deemed solvent - we resigned and lost a fair amount of fees.

[greenginger]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that Ukio received a 50,000,000 Lita loan on the very day that UBIG put out the email to supporters.

Ukio Loan (http://www.nasdaqomxbaltic.com/market/?pg=details&instrument=LT0000102352&list=2&tab=news&news_id=238463)

It seems like a hell of a coincidence and the loan could appease Ukio shareholders should the £17M get transferred to UBIG (for the deeds to Tynecastle).



Google Finance states the source and interest payments on the loan have not been announced as the loan has not yet been approved by the Bank of Lithuania.

[Caversham Green]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that Ukio received a 50,000,000 Lita loan on the very day that UBIG put out the email to supporters.

Ukio Loan (http://www.nasdaqomxbaltic.com/market/?pg=details&instrument=LT0000102352&list=2&tab=news&news_id=238463)

It seems like a hell of a coincidence and the loan could appease Ukio shareholders should the £17M get transferred to UBIG (for the deeds to Tynecastle).

I saw that. It strikes me that there's not a hope in hell of UKIO extending the yams loan in these circumstances.

I see it's headed 'notification of material event'. £13m? material to a bank? :wtf:

[Part/Time Supporter]

I saw that. It strikes me that there's not a hope in hell of UKIO extending the yams loan in these circumstances.

I see it's headed 'notification of material event'. £13m? material to a bank? :wtf:

It's not a big bank by Lithuanian standards, never mind Western Europe. Even in the good times they were only making profits of a few million a year.

[jacomo]

the Big Bomb of Yamoblivion

:thumbsup:

I thought I could hear a ticking noise.

[dangermouse]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that Ukio received a 50,000,000 Lita loan on the very day that UBIG put out the email to supporters.

Ukio Loan (http://www.nasdaqomxbaltic.com/market/?pg=details&instrument=LT0000102352&list=2&tab=news&news_id=238463)

It seems like a hell of a coincidence and the loan could appease Ukio shareholders should the £17M get transferred to UBIG (for the deeds to Tynecastle).

This bit confuses me. Some posters say that the Title Deeds are already with UKIO.

What is the real story? Do HMFC still own Tynecastle and if so is it likely to be used to pay off the £17M due in February? If UKIO already own the PBS what does this mean for UBIG/HMFC when the £17M is due to be repaid?

[Caversham Green]

This bit confuses me. Some posters say that the Title Deeds are already with UKIO.

What is the real story? Do HMFC still own Tynecastle and if so is it likely to be used to pay off the £17M due in February? If UKIO already own the PBS what does this mean for UBIG/HMFC when the £17M is due to be repaid?

Tynie is owned by HOMFC but there's a security over it held by UKIO. That means they hold the deeds, even though they are in the club's name.

It's the same with any mortgage - my bank have kept the wheels to Caversham Caravan and won't let me have them back until I've paid off their loan.

[dangermouse]

Tynie is owned by HOMFC but there's a security over it held by UKIO. That means they hold the deeds, even though they are in the club's name.

It's the same with any mortgage - my bank have kept the wheels to Caversham Caravan and won't let me have them back until I've paid off their loan.

So the transfer of ownership of the PBS to UKIO/UBIG could pay off their £17M loan?

[Phil D. Rolls]

So the transfer of ownership of the PBS to UKIO/UBIG could pay off their £17M loan?

And then they get to play there forever more? Yams Happy, Vlad Happy, ev-er-ay body happy!

[Caversham Green]

So the transfer of ownership of the PBS to UKIO/UBIG could pay off their £17M loan?

In theory yes, if the market value of the PBS was sufficient to cover the loan. However, the £17.6m is owed to UKIO which is a different company from UBIG and, being a bank, may not want to take over a bus shelter as an investment property. The link that Sergey provided suggests that £17.6m is big potatoes to them and also that they are likely to want hard cash (IMO).

According to the 2008 accounts Vlad's direct and indirect (that includes Ma Vlad) shareholding in UKIO is 32.96%, so although he is the biggest single shareholder his influence is by no means comprehensive.

If UBIG take over the loan they will still have to find the cash to pay off UBIG.

The more I think about the more I think I'd be bricking it if I was a yam.

[Caversham Green]

And then they get to play there forever more? Yams Happy, Vlad Happy, ev-er-ay body happy!

The commercial rent on a property valued at £17m would be much higher than the interest charged on that amount (the thick end of £1.5m I reckon) so Vlad would have found another way taking money from himself. He'd be happy, presumably most of the yams would be happy and I'd probably have a wee smile about it as well.

[jgl07]

That's a good point, and one I was forgetting in my replies to Spike. The £17.6m is due to a bank that would/could not take equity in settlement. I doubt if they would take Tynie either so the choice of action is either UBIG setlle the debt (if they have the cash) and add it to the amount HOMFC owe them or UKIO extend the loan (unlikely given the financial position HOMFC are in).

If that was the case would Hearts not have to change their borrowing limit once more?

That rate that Hearts are losing cash probably means that the debt is now somewhere between £40 and £50 million.

They were on 30.5 million eighteen months ago in June 2008. In the 2008 accounts Hearts lost £3.5 million despite bringing in 11.3 million in transfer fees. That is 9 million more than the receipts in 2009 so Hearts should be on track to lose £10 million plus.

I can't see anything but another debt for equity swap next month unless the plus is pulled.

[Sergey]

So the transfer of ownership of the PBS to UKIO/UBIG could pay off their £17M loan?


And then they get to play there forever more? Yams Happy, Vlad Happy, ev-er-ay body happy!


In theory yes, if the market value of the PBS was sufficient to cover the loan. However, the £17.6m is owed to UKIO which is a different company from UBIG and, being a bank, may not want to take over a bus shelter as an investment property. The link that Sergey provided suggests that £17.6m is big potatoes to them and also that they are likely to want hard cash (IMO).

According to the 2008 accounts Vlad's direct and indirect (that includes Ma Vlad) shareholding in UKIO is 32.96%, so although he is the biggest single shareholder his influence is by no means comprehensive.

If UBIG take over the loan they will still have to find the cash to pay off UBIG.

The more I think about the more I think I'd be bricking it if I was a yam.

Another option could be that UBIG take the deeds for say £13m (as per the Ukio loan) and convert the other £4.6m as a DfE swap (or simply pay Ukio the balance while increasing the HoMFC debt).

That way, the UBIG/Ukio group will have acquired a land asset at an undervalued rate and will have theoretically settled the due loan (legally). The land and cash is then out-with the clutches of creditors if and when the plug is pulled.

That is asset-stripping of the highest order.

[Kato]

Another option could be that UBIG take the deeds for say £13m (as per the Ukio loan) and convert the other £4.6m as a DfE swap (or simply pay Ukio the balance while increasing the HoMFC debt).

That way, the UBIG/Ukio group will have acquired a land asset at an undervalued rate and will have theoretically settled the due loan (legally). The land and cash is then out-with the clutches of creditors if and when the plug is pulled.

That is asset-stripping of the highest order.

Yea but don't you get it.

They owe the money to themselves.


:faf::faf:

[StevieC]

The commercial rent on a property valued at £17m would be much higher than the interest charged on that amount (the thick end of £1.5m I reckon) so Vlad would have found another way taking money from himself.

I suppose that UBIG could borrow £17m from UKIO, use that to buy ownership of the PBS and then HOMFC would have the cash to pay off their £17m loan.
In Vlad World that would just constitute the shuffling of a few bits of paper with the outcome being that UBIG would have ownership of the PBS and any administration process involving HOMFC wouldn't be able to touch it.
In the meantime it reduces the debt from £40m to £27m keeping the supporters happy and also means Vlad can up his earnings from the club with the rental fees (obviously adding this annual charge to the debt figure and in turn also increasing the interest charges).

He's not as mad as some make out.

:hmmm:

[Dashing Bob S]

Another option could be that UBIG take the deeds for say £13m (as per the Ukio loan) and convert the other £4.6m as a DfE swap (or simply pay Ukio the balance while increasing the HoMFC debt).

That way, the UBIG/Ukio group will have acquired a land asset at an undervalued rate and will have theoretically settled the due loan (legally). The land and cash is then out-with the clutches of creditors if and when the plug is pulled.

That is asset-stripping of the highest order.

Too much gloom and doom on this thread.

Any potential good news for the Yams (other than Kingston and Nade signing contract extensions?)

[Dashing Bob S]

And heartfelt thanks to them for providing so much fun and getting the festive season off to a cracking start. So Vlad, Roman, Big Chris, Susan, Mikey, Larry, Fatty Foulkes, Gary MacKay, Wee Airdrie Jambo, etc etc, your boys take one hell of a beating in the festive mirth stakes!:faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::fa f::faf::faf:

[HFC 0-7]

Plenty people on here explaining much of the convoluted shenanigans from Vlad and the general weakness of the bank etc. and I thank you for that. Threads about yams and our stadium-building intentions are giving me a right warm feeling inside.

I know that this could be a slow fuse on the Big Bomb of Yamoblivion but does the fact that they and UKIO/UBIG seem to have survived so far in difficult times imply that they will scrape through? If things were as bad as we think wouldn't it have been done and dusted by now?

I only say this as by all logic UKIO/UBIG should have pulled the plug ages ago but they haven't. There has to be a reason that they have not done so - I still get a pain in my head trying to figure out what Vlad gets out of this. I know we can all talk about laundering money and raking in interest payments but I don't see how any of that income can keep up with the losses they are making.

They are maybe waiting until January to try and cash in on a couple of players so that it will go straight into Vlads pocket before pulling the plug.

[Caversham Green]

If that was the case would Hearts not have to change their borrowing limit once more?

That rate that Hearts are losing cash probably means that the debt is now somewhere between £40 and £50 million.

They were on 30.5 million eighteen months ago in June 2008. In the 2008 accounts Hearts lost £3.5 million despite bringing in 11.3 million in transfer fees. That is 9 million more than the receipts in 2009 so Hearts should be on track to lose £10 million plus.

I can't see anything but another debt for equity swap next month unless the plus is pulled. They might not have reached the £40m mark yet as they sold Berra after the 2008 accounts and they have cut costs, but they can't be far off. The £17.6m is included in the debt figures quoted so the problem regarding that is just how they find the cash to settle it. I still think the email is the prelude to something though, and they definitely need to do something.


I suppose that UBIG could borrow £17m from UKIO, use that to buy ownership of the PBS and then HOMFC would have the cash to pay off their £17m loan.
In Vlad World that would just constitute the shuffling of a few bits of paper with the outcome being that UBIG would have ownership of the PBS and any administration process involving HOMFC wouldn't be able to touch it.
In the meantime it reduces the debt from £40m to £27m keeping the supporters happy and also means Vlad can up his earnings from the club with the rental fees (obviously adding this annual charge to the debt figure and in turn also increasing the interest charges).

He's not as mad as some make out.

:hmmm: I could see something like that happening (or see Sergey's asset-stripping comment) but that doesn't leave UKIO with any cash from the deal - £17m in from Yams, £17m out to UBIG - and I think they are cash hungry just now.

[poolman]

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:faf:

[jgl07]

They might not have reached the £40m mark yet as they sold Berra after the 2008 accounts and they have cut costs, but they can't be far off. The £17.6m is included in the debt figures quoted so the problem regarding that is just how they find the cash to settle it. I still think the email is the prelude to something though, and they definitely need to do something.

Hearts must have lost close on £15 million in the 2008 financial year before taking account of the Bednar and Gordon transfer fees.

Take off the £2.3 million for Berra from the £30.5 million debt and it becomes around £28 million. Hearts would have to virtually halve their losses to around £8 million a year to stay within the £40 million limit eighteen months on.

OK Hearts may have cut some costs but I would be surprised if they saved anything like that amount. Certainly not as far as the 2009 accounts are concerned.

Their recent cost savings will have more impact on the 2010 accounts (when Aguiar and Tall departed) and the 2011 accounts (when the likes of Goncalves, Kingston and Nade will come off the wage bill). This may come far too late.

[Caversham Green]

Hearts must have lost close on £15 million in the 2008 financial year before taking account of the Bednar and Gordon transfer fees.

Take off the £2.3 million for Berra from the £30.5 million debt and it becomes around £28 million. Hearts would have to virtually halve their losses to around £8 million a year to stay within the £40 million limit eighteen months on.

OK Hearts may have cut some costs but I would be surprised if they saved anything like that amount. Certainly not as far as the 2009 accounts are concerned.

Their recent cost savings will have more impact on the 2010 accounts (when Aguiar and Tall departed) and the 2011 accounts (when the likes of Goncalves, Kingston and Nade will come off the wage bill). This may come far too late.

Can't argue with any of that. I suspect (with no real conviction) that they will have kept below the £40m for the 2009 accounts, but as for the 5 months since...:dunno:. The £40m threshold is self-imposed though - there are still some legal ramifications from trading ultra-vires, but not as serious as they once were. They have already breached it once - the £12m DfE took them to £30m, which means that prior to that they were on £42m borrowings - who's to say they won't do it again between accounting reference dates.

Their real problem remains that they have to find £17.6m in the next 7 weeks. Another DfE will not directly solve that problem because the money is owed to UKIO rather than UBIG. If UBIG simply pay off the loan, that in itself doesn't change HoMFC's balance sheet, and a DfE might have to follow. It still all seems to hang on UBIG having the actual cash to settle the debt or UKIO not actually needing hard cash. I wouldn't like to be depending on either if those scenarios.