Bishop missing the point on Carols. Deluded loon

[Twa Cairpets]

The following is from the BBC. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8386154.stm) I laughed myself daft - the guy is a comic genius. If only he knew it.

Bishop attacks 'nonsense' carols

The bishop said he understood why children liked Away in a Manger
Popular Christmas carols contain "nonsense", and adults who sing them should be embarrassed, the Bishop of Croydon has said in a book.

The Rt Rev Nick Baines criticised adults singing Away In A Manger "as if it related to reality".

The bishop also suggested that the last word of the title O Come All Ye Faithful be changed to "faithless".

He said Christmas was being sentimentalised into a fairy story, which he said was "tragic".

In a book entitled Why Wish You a Merry Christmas?, the bishop wrote: "I always find it a slightly bizarre sight when I see parents and grandparents at a nativity play singing Away In A Manger as if it actually related to reality.

'Victorian control'

"I can understand the little children being quite taken with the sort of baby of whom it can be said, 'no crying he makes', but how can any adult sing this without embarrassment?"

He added: "If we sing nonsense, is it any surprise that children grow into adults and throw out the tearless baby Jesus with Father Christmas and other fantasy figures?"

The bishop said that a line in the carol Once in Royal David City - "mild, obedient, good as He" - sounded like "Victorian behaviour control".

Explaining his view on O Come All Ye Faithful, the bishop said it was the faithless who came to see the baby Jesus such as shepherds and "pagan" wise men.

He added: "All sorts of fantasies have grown up around Christmas and it has been sentimentalised into the sort of anaemic tameness that has made many people think of it as nothing more than some sort of a fairy story - which is nothing short of tragic, because nothing could be further from the truth."

And remember, this guy is a Bishop! So Santa and the Nativity are fairy stories, but of course a virgin birth, and turning wine into water,etc etc are all based in reality! Talk about lack of self-awareness. :faf:

[PeeJay]

Bishop attacks 'nonsense' carols
Talk about lack of self-awareness. :faf:


I agree with a lot of your posts and your reasoning TC, but I’m not so sure about this put down. From the bishop’s POV his religion is something serious and he is surely only regaling against the fact that it has been rendered into a sickly-sweet fairy tale, and that too many people – Christians – only see that part of the package rather than what lies beneath it all. Too little thinking about what it is "supposed to be about", perhaps? Maybe the world would be a better place after all if people not only limply subscribed to the ‘nice’ idea of Christianity (well some of it anyway) but actually put the part about being nice to each other into practice. I’m an atheist I know it’s all nonsense, but I can empathise somewhat with the bishop guy on that particular aspect.


C’mon lighten up: it’s Christmas time – be nice to people ... :dizzy:rudolph

[Phil D. Rolls]

The following is from the BBC. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8386154.stm) I laughed myself daft - the guy is a comic genius. If only he knew it.

Bishop attacks 'nonsense' carols

The bishop said he understood why children liked Away in a Manger
Popular Christmas carols contain "nonsense", and adults who sing them should be embarrassed, the Bishop of Croydon has said in a book.

The Rt Rev Nick Baines criticised adults singing Away In A Manger "as if it related to reality".

The bishop also suggested that the last word of the title O Come All Ye Faithful be changed to "faithless".

He said Christmas was being sentimentalised into a fairy story, which he said was "tragic".

In a book entitled Why Wish You a Merry Christmas?, the bishop wrote: "I always find it a slightly bizarre sight when I see parents and grandparents at a nativity play singing Away In A Manger as if it actually related to reality.

'Victorian control'

"I can understand the little children being quite taken with the sort of baby of whom it can be said, 'no crying he makes', but how can any adult sing this without embarrassment?"

He added: "If we sing nonsense, is it any surprise that children grow into adults and throw out the tearless baby Jesus with Father Christmas and other fantasy figures?"

The bishop said that a line in the carol Once in Royal David City - "mild, obedient, good as He" - sounded like "Victorian behaviour control".

Explaining his view on O Come All Ye Faithful, the bishop said it was the faithless who came to see the baby Jesus such as shepherds and "pagan" wise men.

He added: "All sorts of fantasies have grown up around Christmas and it has been sentimentalised into the sort of anaemic tameness that has made many people think of it as nothing more than some sort of a fairy story - which is nothing short of tragic, because nothing could be further from the truth."

And remember, this guy is a Bishop! So Santa and the Nativity are fairy stories, but of course a virgin birth, and turning wine into water,etc etc are all based in reality! Talk about lack of self-awareness. :faf:

Santa is real, I've seen him at Ocean Terminal, Jenners and the Gyle.

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what your point is here. Is it that you don't like Christmas traditions being questioned, or is it that you think the Bishop doesn't believe in God?

Besides I don't think he did say that the Nativity is a fairy story, he said Christmas has become so sentimentalised that other people have started to see it that way. I reckon he is trying to say that Christmas needs a bit more thought as people are getting modern myths mixed up with the true story.

You're not seriously saying a Bishop doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to religion are you?

[Andy74]

Santa is real, I've seen him at Ocean Terminal, Jenners and the Gyle.

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what your point is here. Is it that you don't like Christmas traditions being questioned, or is it that you think the Bishop doesn't believe in God?

Besides I don't think he did say that the Nativity is a fairy story, he said Christmas has become so sentimentalised that other people have started to see it that way. I reckon he is trying to say that Christmas needs a bit more thought as people are getting modern myths mixed up with the true story.

You're not seriously saying a Bishop doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to religion are you?

I'm with TC here.

Away in a manger and the nativity story and plays are, as far as I'm aware, based pretty much on what we are told about the birth of Jesus.

What TC is saying though is that taking bits of things which he believes to be turned into fairy tales or fiction is a bit strange when you could argue that it is exactly that on which religion is based.

It matters not that the Bishop beleives in what he does and that all the rest is fairly tale. The people who sing the carols or attend the nativities have no less right to beleive that their version is true.

Its all nonsense anyway and a bit rich of someone to suggest their brand of nonsense is any more valid tha someone else's.

[Dinkydoo]

Its all nonsense anyway and a bit rich of someone to suggest their brand of nonsense is any more valid tha someone else's.


Sums it up perfectly for me :faf:

The fact that Christianity has stolen pretty much every pagan festival going and turned them into commercialised public holidays is even richer imo.

I'm an Atheist, but I still enjoy xmas in terms of family values and friendship etc....

[Twa Cairpets]

I agree with a lot of your posts and your reasoning TC, but I’m not so sure about this put down. From the bishop’s POV his religion is something serious and he is surely only regaling against the fact that it has been rendered into a sickly-sweet fairy tale, and that too many people – Christians – only see that part of the package rather than what lies beneath it all. Too little thinking about what it is "supposed to be about", perhaps? Maybe the world would be a better place after all if people not only limply subscribed to the ‘nice’ idea of Christianity (well some of it anyway) but actually put the part about being nice to each other into practice. I’m an atheist I know it’s all nonsense, but I can empathise somewhat with the bishop guy on that particular aspect.


C’mon lighten up: it’s Christmas time – be nice to people ... :dizzy:rudolph

If you define Christmas - broadly - as a time of peace and goodwill to all men (which is an entirely laudable if not exclusively religious thing to wish for), i'm all for it. I rather like Carols, they're mostly happy things about nice stuff with catchy tunes. The "sickly sweet" stuff is part of what the festival of Christmas is about - certainly for me. I'm an atheist, I have no desire whatsoever to think about the holiday in a christian/spiritual manner in the slightest, but I do like things like the family time, and the fact that people are generally better dispositioned to one another for a while at least.

The point about laying into this piece of self indulgent guff from the Bishop is two-fold.

1) It exposes the hypocrisy - as pointed out in some of the other responses on this thread - of imposing his particularly narrow interpretation of the myth he chooses to believe - and giving others a hard time for doing differently, and
2) Looking for this indefinable "real" message of Christmas. A strictly religious view, by his lights, would presumably be a kind of Wee Free dirge fest involving the Terrible Vengeance of the Lord. That would be just oodles of fun.

if the Bish has issues with people treating Christmas as a kind of "christianity-lite", frankly thats predominantly a sales and marketing problem on his part, but also its also very arrogant. "If you like or celebrate anything other than what I want you to, you're somewhat less of a good person than I am".

[lapsedhibee]

"If you like or celebrate anything other than what I want you to, you're somewhat less of a good person than I am".

:agree: Uber Christian. Bet he stays right to the very end of every service, no matter how badly it's going.

[Sergio sledge]

The point about laying into this piece of self indulgent guff from the Bishop is two-fold.

1) It exposes the hypocrisy - as pointed out in some of the other responses on this thread - of imposing his particularly narrow interpretation of the myth he chooses to believe - and giving others a hard time for doing differently, and
2) Looking for this indefinable "real" message of Christmas. A strictly religious view, by his lights, would presumably be a kind of Wee Free dirge fest involving the Terrible Vengeance of the Lord. That would be just oodles of fun.

Or could the point of your post be to have another rant at the "loons" who believe something that you don't?

There is no hypocrisy in someone who's job it is to try and impart some sort of spiritual and moral guidance to people whowant that sort of thing trying to do just that is there? No more hypocritical than you calling him a deluded loon for having the temerity to believe something different to you and articulate his beliefs in a book. Smacks of the sort of "he shouln't be allowed to write a book that differs from my beliefs" attitude that many "evangelicals" came out with after the God delusion was published.

As to your second point, just because he doesn't believe that carols are good because they portray some sort of cherubic, angelic, never crying mythical baby instead of what he sees as a real thing, doesn't mean he's a fire and brimstone, you're all going to hell unless you never smile sort of guy. Have you met him or heard him speak? The real message of Christmas has always been a happy one for Christians, because it is a time when their saviour came into this world a real man, the son of God. To suggest that he wants us all to sit around growling and wallowing in self recrimination at Christmas is daft. IMHO...


if the Bish has issues with people treating Christmas as a kind of "christianity-lite", frankly thats predominantly a sales and marketing problem on his part, but also its also very arrogant. "If you like or celebrate anything other than what I want you to, you're somewhat less of a good person than I am".

Ah, so now we get to the crux of it, you think he's saying he's better than you because he's come out and stood up for what he believes in? I've already said it in my post, but it is his job as a religious leader to give guidance and advice to people who want to listen, so surely he would be neglecting his duty if he didn't come out and tell people what he believes in order to make them think. But you've obviously got a bit of a chip on your shoulder about freedom of speech and expression for people with religious views, of course, you can call whoever you want a deluded loon, and insult what they believe?

That, to me, is hypocrisy.

[Leicester Fan]

It's not a fairy tale!:grr: Santa Claus was crucified for people like you.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's not a fairy tale!:grr: Santa Claus was crucified for people like you.

*****in moslem's cruci-fyin Santa Claw's, if they come round my kid's, I swear I'll do time!!!:grr:

[CropleyWasGod]

. "If you like or celebrate anything other than what I want you to, you're somewhat less of a good person than I am".

To be fair to the Bishop, one would EXPECT him to say that. According to his beliefs, Jesus said "those who are not with us are against us."

[Jack]

Actually I see exactly where he’s coming from.

He wanted to write a book about Christmas Carols and realised no one would ever pay any attention to it unless it had something a wee bit controversial in it.

So he slags off people who are stupid in believing this ‘nonsense’.

He has an devious go at the once a year Christians and pagans!

It will make the people who read his book, and nod knowingly, feel superior to those other people and give them the rite to think of themselves as uber Christians.

So instead of no books sold he’ll probably sell a few and when his church is full of rubber neckers, there only to see the man that wrote the book, his collection plate will be fuller than usual too.

And that’s not to mention the various TV, radio and other media jaunts he’ll be in line for and can make a few bob from.

[Twa Cairpets]

Or could the point of your post be to have another rant at the "loons" who believe something that you don't?

Not a rant, i hope, but I dont see a problem in highlighting on this forum views which, to me at least, seem ridiculous. I thought that the story would be interesting for people to look at, think about and comment on. The fact that my view is that it does indeed make him look like a hypocritical loon is neither here nor there.


There is no hypocrisy in someone who's job it is to try and impart some sort of spiritual and moral guidance to people whowant that sort of thing trying to do just that is there? No more hypocritical than you calling him a deluded loon for having the temerity to believe something different to you and articulate his beliefs in a book. Smacks of the sort of "he shouln't be allowed to write a book that differs from my beliefs" attitude that many "evangelicals" came out with after the God delusion was published.

I've no problem in reading books from people who write views opposite to mine. That would be completely wrong. I read "The Dawkins Delusion" after the God Delusion, for example, to get an understanding from both sides of the debate. So your "Evangelcial" jibe is neither accurate nor warranted. He canwrite what he likes, but if its strikes me as being arrant nonsense are you suggesting I'm not allowed to criticise it because I disagree?



As to your second point, just because he doesn't believe that carols are good because they portray some sort of cherubic, angelic, never crying mythical baby instead of what he sees as a real thing, doesn't mean he's a fire and brimstone, you're all going to hell unless you never smile sort of guy. Have you met him or heard him speak? The real message of Christmas has always been a happy one for Christians, because it is a time when their saviour came into this world a real man, the son of God. To suggest that he wants us all to sit around growling and wallowing in self recrimination at Christmas is daft. IMHO...

Well, if he disapproves of people enjoying Christmas after their own fashion - which it would appear he does - then it doesnt seem very fair to me that he publicly enunciates it in a way that would upset millions of people of his own faith . Doesnt this trike you as odd? His opinions have no effect on me because I believe nothing of what he does regarding his faith, but I think that people who maybe have a general christian spirituality and enjoy all the trappings of Christmas are being dealt with appallingly by one of their leaders.

I dont know if he does want to be fire and brimstone, but the clear implication is that it should be less fun, more God.



Ah, so now we get to the crux of it, you think he's saying he's better than you because he's come out and stood up for what he believes in? I've already said it in my post, but it is his job as a religious leader to give guidance and advice to people who want to listen, so surely he would be neglecting his duty if he didn't come out and tell people what he believes in order to make them think. But you've obviously got a bit of a chip on your shoulder about freedom of speech and expression for people with religious views, of course, you can call whoever you want a deluded loon, and insult what they believe?

That, to me, is hypocrisy.

I dont think he's better than me. I think he's a loon, remember.

It probably is his job to give religious guidance and religious advice to , as you say, people who want to listen. What he's doing though is giving his opinion in the form of fact to everyone whether or not they want to listen. I think it makes him look incredibly foolish, but youre a mile off target if you think my criticism makes me disapprove of his right to make himself ridiculous.

As long as those of religion believe they have the moral high ground - which is absolutely undeniable - then I will continue to argue against it. People dont deserve respect solely because they have a belief.