Emigration - Scotland's History

[Phil D. Rolls]

I was watching the last episode of Scotland's History the other night, it was the one that brought us up to the present day.

A central theme was the brain drain of the 50s and 60s. It seems to me that Scotland paid a big price for letting its citizens emigrate to the likes of Canada and New Zealand and Australia.

IMO what happened is that the real talent was sucked out of this country, leaving behind second rate people who didn't have the ability or the bottle to move to better themselves.

What was left behind was a lazy, ignorant population that was happy to accept any hand out they could get, and whose response to any problem that came their way was to whinge or try to blame someone else (usually the English).

Or am I being too hard on myself?

[Hibrandenburg]

I was watching the last episode of Scotland's History the other night, it was the one that brought us up to the present day.

A central theme was the brain drain of the 50s and 60s. It seems to me that Scotland paid a big price for letting its citizens emigrate to the likes of Canada and New Zealand and Australia.

IMO what happened is that the real talent was sucked out of this country, leaving behind second rate people who didn't have the ability or the bottle to move to better themselves.

What was left behind was a lazy, ignorant population that was happy to accept any hand out they could get, and whose response to any problem that came their way was to whinge or try to blame someone else (usually the English).

Or am I being too hard on myself?

No, think that sums us up quite well :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

No, think that sums us up quite well :agree:

Just thinking - when people bang on about how great and proud this country used to be, it was before the emigration. Given a choice between blaming the decline on the people who stayed here and ran the country, and blaming a bunch of newcomers who came to do the work, they blame the immigrants.

Meanwhile, they stuff their faces with chips, smoke fags and waddle onto flights to Benidorm twice a year. When they get there, they meet like minded losers from England and they all sit in big pubs talking about the one thing they have in common - how sh*te their lives are.

[Hibrandenburg]

If I'd stayed in Scotland instead of leaving 27 years ago, then I'd either be in jail or dead.

When I do get back I always get the feeling that most look down their noses at me in that working class elite sort of way.

[hibsbollah]

I thought the programme was shocking. Neil Oliver makes me wants to stick pins in my eyes, he's so annoying. And he's not even a proper historian.

As to your point, i think its a bit harsh. We had to deal with much greater outward migration in the past but we just dealt with it and continued to grow economically and socially. Two great books on this period are 'How Scots Invented the Modern World' by Arthur Herman and 'Edinburgh capital of the mind' by james buchan.

[Hibrandenburg]

I thought the programme was shocking. Neil Oliver makes me wants to stick pins in my eyes, he's so annoying. And he's not even a proper historian.

As to your point, i think its a bit harsh. We had to deal with much greater outward migration in the past but we just dealt with it and continued to grow economically and socially. Two great books on this period are 'How Scots Invented the Modern World' by Arthur Herman and 'Edinburgh capital of the mind' by james buchan.

Both books are a good read, however slightly tartan tinted and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

[hibsbollah]

Both books are a good read, however slightly tartan tinted and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Did you think? Despite the title the first one especially was quite balanced:confused:

..by contrast I thought the Oliver programme was revelling in our 'victim' status.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I thought the programme was shocking. Neil Oliver makes me wants to stick pins in my eyes, he's so annoying. And he's not even a proper historian.

As to your point, i think its a bit harsh. We had to deal with much greater outward migration in the past but we just dealt with it and continued to grow economically and socially. Two great books on this period are 'How Scots Invented the Modern World' by Arthur Herman and 'Edinburgh capital of the mind' by james buchan.

I think the History in the series was valid enough, and the programme is to be commended for the way they dealt with the sh*ttier bits of our past like the Covenant.

I've read the first book, it is about how Scottish learning, determination and "devilment" was used to construct other countries around the world, a history of the brain drain. It's a book that made me proud to be Scottish, and then I looked out the window and didn't recognise those values in Scotland any more.

I accept that I am being over harsh on those that remained. Of course each individual had their reasons to stay or go. It's just that I think the so called Scottish values are a thing of the past.

Taken as a group, I think the modern Scots are lazy, whingeing ignoramuses. Take a look at our best selling papers, there are two classic photo poses when someone has a grievance to air.

The first is for the pensioner who has just received a £3,000,000 gas bill, she poses with here eyes looking skyward in that "what next" type expression :rolleyes:.

The other one is the young couple who have been told they can't have the stripey carpet they had ordered in time for Xmas, they pose with the big, sad, round face - kind of "poor us".

Sums up Scotland to me.

[lEXO]

I was watching the last episode of Scotland's History the other night, it was the one that brought us up to the present day.

A central theme was the brain drain of the 50s and 60s. It seems to me that Scotland paid a big price for letting its citizens emigrate to the likes of Canada and New Zealand and Australia.

IMO what happened is that the real talent was sucked out of this country, leaving behind second rate people who didn't have the ability or the bottle to move to better themselves.

What was left behind was a lazy, ignorant population that was happy to accept any hand out they could get, and whose response to any problem that came their way was to whinge or try to blame someone else (usually the English).

Or am I being too hard on myself?
I agree to a certain point.There are people who hardly do ****** all but expect everything, and moan when they dont get it.There are plenty people out there who have worked hard all their lives to bring up their families, and have a better quality of life.I don t regard myself as lazy, ignorant or blame other people for what goes wrong in my life.Neither do my parents who are the kind of people who i have described above.
It also hasn,t helped that a generation of industries has been wiped out by different governments and companies since the 70s onwards.This has had an effect not only on the current workers, but their parents and grandparents.And it is still going on, with companies using the recession as an excuse to streamline their business, leaving workers and their families in the ****.
The talented people who left maybe had to leave to get the challenge that they wanted because there were no prospects for them here.I believe there is still plenty talent in this country, it just seems to be easier to be negative about things these days.The chance of them showcasing it is more limited because of the amount of people chasing individual jobs.So ther are some who are lazy ignorant wasters, but they arent all who were left behind.That,s not doing justice to the hard working people who get on with their lives and look forward ,not back.

[Tinyclothes]

I agree with the OP. I think as the world stands right now Scotland has the chance to become an even more vital and important part of the world. I believe we should jump headlong into renewable energy and focus more effort on becoming leaders in this field. There's often too much talk of independence and '****** off England. we have the oil so we will be minted'. Oil isn't the answer and we need to look forward to what we could achieve and not look back.

(Just noticed final sentence of above post, didn't mean to copy)

[Phil D. Rolls]

I agree to a certain point.There are people who hardly do ****** all but expect everything, and moan when they dont get it.There are plenty people out there who have worked hard all their lives to bring up their families, and have a better quality of life.I don t regard myself as lazy, ignorant or blame other people for what goes wrong in my life.Neither do my parents who are the kind of people who i have described above.
It also hasn,t helped that a generation of industries has been wiped out by different governments and companies since the 70s onwards.This has had an effect not only on the current workers, but their parents and grandparents.And it is still going on, with companies using the recession as an excuse to streamline their business, leaving workers and their families in the ****.
The talented people who left maybe had to leave to get the challenge that they wanted because there were no prospects for them here.I believe there is still plenty talent in this country, it just seems to be easier to be negative about things these days.The chance of them showcasing it is more limited because of the amount of people chasing individual jobs.So ther are some who are lazy ignorant wasters, but they arent all who were left behind.That,s not doing justice to the hard working people who get on with their lives and look forward ,not back.

Good point, I am not saying everyone in Scotland has lost the old values, but there is a fair swedge who have.

[(((Fergus)))]

I wouldn't get too depressed about the brain drain - there are new Scots being born every day. Just as successful, driven people don't always give birth to successful, driven children - often they squander their parents' inheritance - so lazy ignoramuses don't necessarily have lazy ignoramuses as children.

Might also be a good idea to get out of Fife more regularly. :wink:

[hibsbollah]

The way filled rolls describes his 'average' Scot is probably similar to the way a Japanese a German or a Swede might describe his countrymen. It might be that society and culture has changed across the western or developed world making us all more sedentary, less community minded and less physically active, and hence more depressed and likely to think our country of birth is a unique *****hole.

We're also a country of presbyterianism, which makes us miserable and prone to bouts of self-loathing:wink:

[--------]

The way filled rolls describes his 'average' Scot is probably similar to the way a Japanese a German or a Swede might describe his countrymen. It might be that society and culture has changed across the western or developed world making us all more sedentary, less community minded and less physically active, and hence more depressed and likely to think our country of birth is a unique *****hole.

We're also a country of presbyterianism, which makes us miserable and prone to bouts of self-loathing:wink:


Don't blame the failure of Western Secular Liberalism on me, mate.

Seems to me that Scotland and Scots did best when presbyterianism was a lot stronger and more generally accepted than it is now.

[Andy74]

I was watching the last episode of Scotland's History the other night, it was the one that brought us up to the present day.

A central theme was the brain drain of the 50s and 60s. It seems to me that Scotland paid a big price for letting its citizens emigrate to the likes of Canada and New Zealand and Australia.

IMO what happened is that the real talent was sucked out of this country, leaving behind second rate people who didn't have the ability or the bottle to move to better themselves.

What was left behind was a lazy, ignorant population that was happy to accept any hand out they could get, and whose response to any problem that came their way was to whinge or try to blame someone else (usually the English).

Or am I being too hard on myself?


How does this equate to your wish for all the talented bankers just to up and leave as well?

All businesses, countries, need to retain their best people to be competitive. good people will go where ty get the best offer and it is us who lose out in the end by forcing them to go.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I wouldn't get too depressed about the brain drain - there are new Scots being born every day. Just as successful, driven people don't always give birth to successful, driven children - often they squander their parents' inheritance - so lazy ignoramuses don't necessarily have lazy ignoramuses as children.

Might also be a good idea to get out of Fife more regularly. :wink:

Tell me about it! :greengrin


The way filled rolls describes his 'average' Scot is probably similar to the way a Japanese a German or a Swede might describe his countrymen. It might be that society and culture has changed across the western or developed world making us all more sedentary, less community minded and less physically active, and hence more depressed and likely to think our country of birth is a unique *****hole.

We're also a country of presbyterianism, which makes us miserable and prone to bouts of self-loathing:wink:

Fair enough, but on the Presbyterian thing can I just say this - the Dutch are Calvinists too, and from what I've seen they love themselves!

[hibsbollah]

Fair enough, but on the Presbyterian thing can I just say this - the Dutch are Calvinists too, and from what I've seen they love themselves!

Full of misery mate, just look at their 'art':rolleyes:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Full of misery mate, just look at their 'art':rolleyes:

Oh, I don't know about that, I saw some very happy looking "life models" the last time I was walking around Amsterdam.

How come they get the interesting Calvinism and we get the dreich bit. It's time someone said something.:agree:

[--------]

Oh, I don't know about that, I saw some very happy looking "life models" the last time I was walking around Amsterdam.

How come they get the interesting Calvinism and we get the dreich bit. It's time someone said something.:agree:



I blame David Hume. Dreary old whinger. Never happy.

It's the Enlightenment, I tell you! Spoiled everything. :devil:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I blame David Hume. Dreary old whinger. Never happy.

It's the Enlightenment, I tell you! Spoiled everything. :devil:

What even our Aetheists are Calvinist? What a sh*thole! I blame the Poles.

[ancient hibee]

This vastly talented brain drain is a myth,can anyone name somebody who left and did as well as Tom Farmer,Tom Hunter or even David Murray?

[Phil D. Rolls]

This vastly talented brain drain is a myth,can anyone name somebody who left and did as well as Tom Farmer,Tom Hunter or even David Murray?

:cough: Carnegie :cough:

[hibsbollah]

This vastly talented brain drain is a myth,can anyone name somebody who left and did as well as Tom Farmer,Tom Hunter or even David Murray?

St Columba?:greengrin

[--------]

What even our Aetheists are Calvinist? What a sh*thole! I blame the Poles.


Hume wasnae a Calvinist. There you go again - blaming poor old John C.

John C. wasn't a well man - no wonder he sometimes wasnae the life and soul of the party.

Hume was rationalist and freethinker, the ancestor of all the Political Correctionists and trendy liberal softbrains that infest our culture today.

And his books are among the absolutely DIREST class-A five-star insomnia-cures ever written - BOOOOORRRRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!

A PRE-INCARNATION OF SHAUN LAWSON, IMHO. :jamboak:

[Dashing Bob S]

I think the History in the series was valid enough, and the programme is to be commended for the way they dealt with the sh*ttier bits of our past like the Covenant.

I've read the first book, it is about how Scottish learning, determination and "devilment" was used to construct other countries around the world, a history of the brain drain. It's a book that made me proud to be Scottish, and then I looked out the window and didn't recognise those values in Scotland any more.

I accept that I am being over harsh on those that remained. Of course each individual had their reasons to stay or go. It's just that I think the so called Scottish values are a thing of the past.

Taken as a group, I think the modern Scots are lazy, whingeing ignoramuses. Take a look at our best selling papers, there are two classic photo poses when someone has a grievance to air.

The first is for the pensioner who has just received a £3,000,000 gas bill, she poses with here eyes looking skyward in that "what next" type expression :rolleyes:.

The other one is the young couple who have been told they can't have the stripey carpet they had ordered in time for Xmas, they pose with the big, sad, round face - kind of "poor us".

Sums up Scotland to me.

This sort of thing happens in England too, it's a British thing rather than a particularly Scottish one. I think it comes from our inquitous class system, where the media, whatever view it professes to follow, is largely owned and edited by upper middle-class people. They therefore delight in portraying the working-classes as ignorant, self-hating, powerless victims. Particularly in times of economic recession/depression/chaos.

It's the old Victorian mentality of blaming the victims for the crime. I don't see the boardrooms of the banks, nor the spineless parliaments who have acquiesed to their self-serving decisions, as being stuffed with the set-up pensioners and young couples you're talking about.

We correctly pursue the Burberry-capped underclass all the way to the banks to seize their assets from drug crime, but just shrug, slack-jawed and open-mouthed as the bankers who have put each family in this country £40,000 in debt, tell us they need to pay more of our tax money (money the government gave them to issue loans to small business and prospective home owners) on personal bonuses. There is little talk of seizing the assets of those thieves, far less of reforming the system that allows them to continually exploit us.

And that, in part, is due to the shocking passivity of the ordinary people in this country, which in turn, has a lot to do with the media continually telling them (explicitly or implicitly) that they are useless low-life trash who decision-making wise, should aspire to nothing more than voting in the X-Factor, and in all other walks of life, should basically do what their so-called betters tell them.

And that's really working out for us all right now, isn't it.

[Betty Boop]

This sort of thing happens in England too, it's a British thing rather than a particularly Scottish one. I think it comes from our inquitous class system, where the media, whatever view it professes to follow, is largely owned and edited by upper middle-class people. They therefore delight in portraying the working-classes as ignorant, self-hating, powerless victims. Particularly in times of economic recession/depression/chaos.

It's the old Victorian mentality of blaming the victims for the crime. I don't see the boardrooms of the banks, nor the spineless parliaments who have acquiesed to their self-serving decisions, as being stuffed with the set-up pensioners and young couples you're talking about.

We correctly pursue the Burberry-capped underclass all the way to the banks to seize their assets from drug crime, but just shrug, slack-jawed and open-mouthed as the bankers who have put each family in this country £40,000 in debt, tell us they need to pay more of our tax money (money the government gave them to issue loans to small business and prospective home owners) on personal bonuses. There is little talk of seizing the assets of those thieves, far less of reforming the system that allows them to continually exploit us.

And that, in part, is due to the shocking passivity of the ordinary people in this country, which in turn, has a lot to do with the media continually telling them (explicitly or implicitly) that they are useless low-life trash who decision-making wise, should aspire to nothing more than voting in the X-Factor, and in all other walks of life, should basically do what their so-called betters tell them.

And that's really working out for us all right now, isn't it.

:top marks

[ginger_rice]

There's still a hell of a lot of talent in this country you know.

AFAIK a lot of the emigration in the 50's, 60's and 70's was owing to the decline in traditional heavy industries, many of those who left were skilled workers.

I agree there is a problem with some sections of our society, especially those who sit at home awaiting the next giro, blaming the poles and Hungarians for their inability to get work, and when offered a job turn in down as being beneath them.

There is also the Scottish cringe, and the Scotlandshire thing we need to deal with, which IMHO is propagated by the unionist media, we also need to end the "ah cannae dae it" syndrome Scotland has proven time and again that we can indeed dae it!

Tinyclothes made a good point about renewable energy, we missed the boat in providing the on shore turbines the world will need but we can still become world leaders in off shore technology. Don't write off North sea oil just yet either, don't forget we were told it would run out by 2000, here's one question regarding oil, would an independent Scotland have squandered the oil money on funding massive unemployment, a London ring road (M25) and the channel tunnel?

For all it's faults I would still chose Scotland over any in the World.

[New Corrie]

There's still a hell of a lot of talent in this country you know.

AFAIK a lot of the emigration in the 50's, 60's and 70's was owing to the decline in traditional heavy industries, many of those who left were skilled workers.

I agree there is a problem with some sections of our society, especially those who sit at home awaiting the next giro, blaming the poles and Hungarians for their inability to get work, and when offered a job turn in down as being beneath them.

There is also the Scottish cringe, and the Scotlandshire thing we need to deal with, which IMHO is propagated by the unionist media, we also need to end the "ah cannae dae it" syndrome Scotland has proven time and again that we can indeed dae it!

Tinyclothes made a good point about renewable energy, we missed the boat in providing the on shore turbines the world will need but we can still become world leaders in off shore technology. Don't write off North sea oil just yet either, don't forget we were told it would run out by 2000, here's one question regarding oil, would an independent Scotland have squandered the oil money on funding massive unemployment, a London ring road (M25) and the channel tunnel?

For all it's faults I would still chose Scotland over any in the World.

Scotland is just as culpable when it comes to squandering money GR, Trams, the Parliament etc.

The biggest problem is that the disenfranchised are drifting further away from the "rest of us" all the time. The rich/poor gap is widening and all the politicians over the years have failed the "poor". We have areas in Scotland where life expectancy rates are lower than some war torn, third world type countries. In certain areas of Glasgow you get a telegram from the Queen when you are 50! You can't build a country around Call Centres and Soldering TV's in East Kilbride. We need to be building things again, and giving people a purpose. Just to rub the noses of the "poor Scot" into the dirt, we have spent £800 billion (10 times the previous National Debt) into rescuing the banks which were run by corrupt incompetents. The ordinary Scot has not only had to endure the Industrial vandalism that tore the heart out of Scotland, but has had to suffer continual patronising from a succession of politicians who have promised to reconnect them to society. Sadly, it is going to get worse before it gets better, as Britain has pretty much run out of ideas and money. No wonder people opt to relocate to other countries.

That said, like yourself I wouldn't want to live in any other country, but then, luckily I dont live in the likes of Glasgow East.

[ginger_rice]

Scotland is just as culpable when it comes to squandering money GR, Trams, the Parliament etc.

The biggest problem is that the disenfranchised are drifting further away from the "rest of us" all the time. The rich/poor gap is widening and all the politicians over the years have failed the "poor". We have areas in Scotland where life expectancy rates are lower than some war torn, third world type countries. In certain areas of Glasgow you get a telegram from the Queen when you are 50! You can't build a country around Call Centres and Soldering TV's in East Kilbride. We need to be building things again, and giving people a purpose. Just to rub the noses of the "poor Scot" into the dirt, we have spent £800 billion (10 times the previous National Debt) into rescuing the banks which were run by corrupt incompetents. The ordinary Scot has not only had to endure the Industrial vandalism that tore the heart out of Scotland, but has had to suffer continual patronising from a succession of politicians who have promised to reconnect them to society. Sadly, it is going to get worse before it gets better, as Britain has pretty much run out of ideas and money. No wonder people opt to relocate to other countries.

That said, like yourself I wouldn't want to live in any other country, but then, luckily I dont live in the likes of Glasgow East.

:agree:

With regard to major infrastructure projects such as the trams, why the hell can we not manage these projects properly it beggars belief :grr:

I honestly believe that we need to start to train our kids properly, stop all those pretend universities giving out degrees in politics with media studies and fast food retailing, and get the kids doing proper vocational courses NQs and HNC/D courses, start to invest in school technical departments which are going the same way as ancient greek/latin departments at present due to lack of funds and/or head teacher support.

[ancient hibee]

:cough: Carnegie :cough:
If you think that Carnegie emigrated in the 50s or 60s which was the subject of your original post perhaps you shouldn't be starting history threads:greengrin

[New Corrie]

:agree:

With regard to major infrastructure projects such as the trams, why the hell can we not manage these projects properly it beggars belief :grr:

I honestly believe that we need to start to train our kids properly, stop all those pretend universities giving out degrees in politics with media studies and fast food retailing, and get the kids doing proper vocational courses NQs and HNC/D courses, start to invest in school technical departments which are going the same way as ancient greek/latin departments at present due to lack of funds and/or head teacher support.


I couldn't agree more, recently a couple of pals of mine have managed to get their kids started on "authentic" apprenticeships. The only reason thet they have managed this is by knowing people, not everyone is fortuetous enough to be able to do this. You have to give them worthwhile aspirations and targets in life, which sadly aren't really available to the youngsters just now.

[Mixu62]

This vastly talented brain drain is a myth,can anyone name somebody who left and did as well as Tom Farmer,Tom Hunter or even David Murray?


Almost every successful company over here has Scots surnames on the board/list of partners. Almost every educational institution of note in NZ was founded by Scots. Whether their family's came here in the 1860's or 1960's I don't know, but it goes to show what can be achieved when free of "the yoo-kay".

On the subject of STF - A school teacher of mine once told me a story about the time he and his mate got caught bunking off when they were kids and sent to the head's office. The head gave them the usual spiel about how they were useless and would never amount to anything. his mate was Tom Farmer. Get that right up ye, teachers!!

[J-C]

Thankfully due to our excellent schooling and universities we will always have the brain power coming through, though unfortunately I've noticed a substantial number of foreign students coming to our universities. Is this due to the fact that Scotland has a free University principal or that it's just that Scotland is a hip and trendy place to come to study nowadays.

We as a nation have always been known for our academic qualities throughout the world and Scotsmen/women are sought after for this. Go to any corner of the globe ( never understood this saying as a globe is round ) and you'll find a Scotman/woman working there in some technological/engineering/teaching/scientific capacity.

Just after WW2 there was a big growth in all of these things and the world was changing, hence the reason our people were wanted for their brain power.

[khib70]

I thought the programme was shocking. Neil Oliver makes me wants to stick pins in my eyes, he's so annoying. And he's not even a proper historian.
As to your point, i think its a bit harsh. We had to deal with much greater outward migration in the past but we just dealt with it and continued to grow economically and socially. Two great books on this period are 'How Scots Invented the Modern World' by Arthur Herman and 'Edinburgh capital of the mind' by james buchan.
:top marks I can't believe that the fascinating and complex thread of Scottish history has come down to a hippy archaeologist shouting soundbites in a muddy field somewhere. It's about as adequate a view of Scottish history as "Heat" magazine is a searching analysis of contemporary social trends. The script is like an extended parody of a Hollywood film trailer. Perhaps, ironically, this programme is a manifestation of the very "brain drain" it sought to describe.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Thankfully due to our excellent schooling and universities we will always have the brain power coming through, though unfortunately I've noticed a substantial number of foreign students coming to our universities. Is this due to the fact that Scotland has a free University principal or that it's just that Scotland is a hip and trendy place to come to study nowadays.

We as a nation have always been known for our academic qualities throughout the world and Scotsmen/women are sought after for this. Go to any corner of the globe ( never understood this saying as a globe is round ) and you'll find a Scotman/woman working there in some technological/engineering/teaching/scientific capacity.

Just after WW2 there was a big growth in all of these things and the world was changing, hence the reason our people were wanted for their brain power.

Did I not read recently that the education minister had been sacked because our schools are the worst in the UK? I think this myth of a good education system harks back to another time.

Only Scottish residents get free University Tuition, so I don't think foreign students come here for that. You'd have to ask the 50% + English students who go to Edinburgh University what the attraction is.

[Betty Boop]

Did I not read recently that the education minister had been sacked because our schools are the worst in the UK? I think this myth of a good education system harks back to another time.

Only Scottish residents get free University Tuition, so I don't think foreign students come here for that. You'd have to ask the 50% + English students who go to Edinburgh University what the attraction is.

:agree: Fiona Hyslop.

[steakbake]

Scottish education needs changed (the primary and secondary stage) and the process began in 2007.

As someone who works in and researches education, I think that the only thing you can really accuse the previous and current holyrood administration of is being far too ambitious on the resources they have available.

The problem as I see it, is that they are trying to bring Curriculum for Excellence in, as well as providing free school meals as well as lowering class sizes as well as new buildings.... as well as.... as well as....

They should focus on the one thing at a time - i think the curriculum is the top priority because it will take time to bed in and to get it started. But even that they have tried to apply on pre-school, primary 1-7, secondary 1-6 in a oner instead of phasing it in. Pre-school first, early primary second, middle primary, late primary, early secondary and so on.

Time isn't however, something that commentators, journalists, the electorate or politicians seem to want to give the administrations - of any colour.

[J-C]

Did I not read recently that the education minister had been sacked because our schools are the worst in the UK? I think this myth of a good education system harks back to another time.

Only Scottish residents get free University Tuition, so I don't think foreign students come here for that. You'd have to ask the 50% + English students who go to Edinburgh University what the attraction is.


Didn't realise that, ta.

I still think our education system is one of the best in the world, remember we don't have the nonsense of GCSE's which compaired to our standard grades are a doddle. The pass marks are a waste of time looking at when you realise the GCSE'scan be done by our kids in 2nd year, obviously with a higher education standard of exam the pass levels will be slightly lower, give me a Scottish school any day over an English one. :greengrin

[Green Mikey]

Didn't realise that, ta.

I still think our education system is one of the best in the world, remember we don't have the nonsense of GCSE's which compaired to our standard grades are a doddle. The pass marks are a waste of time looking at when you realise the GCSE'scan be done by our kids in 2nd year, obviously with a higher education standard of exam the pass levels will be slightly lower, give me a Scottish school any day over an English one. :greengrin

GCSEs and Standard grades are interchangable, same level of difficulty and pretty much cover the same topics.

This whole 'best in the world' is nothing more than dewy eyed sentimentalism. In reality we have large class sizes, no new investment in schools since the SNP have been in power and a University system that awards useless degress to masses of students that have no place at university. In the wider context of society there is low literacy and numeracy rates in Scotland. These are not the hallmarks of a world class system.

[--------]

GCSEs and Standard grades are interchangable, same level of difficulty and pretty much cover the same topics.

This whole 'best in the world' is nothing more than dewy eyed sentimentalism. In reality we have large class sizes, no new investment in schools since the SNP have been in power and a University system that awards useless degress to masses of students that have no place at university. In the wider context of society there is low literacy and numeracy rates in Scotland. These are not the hallmarks of a world class system.


:agree:

Historically the Scottish system was based on good elementary schools (the 'parish' schools) in every community and 'high' schools in the towns, both of which majored on providing a good grounding in basics and on equipping their pupils to go on to university (Scotland had 4 Universities by 1600, compared to England's 2, and entry was by merit, not by social class or the ability to pay fees).

The system was the brain child of the well-known and much-maligned, er, Calvinist, John Knox.... :devil:

[Phil D. Rolls]

GCSEs and Standard grades are interchangable, same level of difficulty and pretty much cover the same topics.

This whole 'best in the world' is nothing more than dewy eyed sentimentalism. In reality we have large class sizes, no new investment in schools since the SNP have been in power and a University system that awards useless degress to masses of students that have no place at university:agree:. In the wider context of society there is low literacy and numeracy rates in Scotland. These are not the hallmarks of a world class system.

I agree, having seen how low the entry requirements for some courses actually are. The classic is the "access course" route. Someone who has not done well at school gets another chance to apply themselves, that's fair because things happen in kids lives.

The problem is the access course provider's funding is based on how many bums they can put on seats. A college with a low success rate is not a popular choice, so basically everyone passes.

You then get the intake at University, and it becomes apparent that some of those students had a good reason for doing badly at school allright - they are thick as mince. However, by some judicious plagiarism (which the Universities say they carry out strict checks on) said thickies can cheat their way to a degree.

In short, it seems incredibly hard to empty someone from a degree course.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Scotland is just as culpable when it comes to squandering money GR, Trams, the Parliament etc.

The biggest problem is that the disenfranchised are drifting further away from the "rest of us" all the time. The rich/poor gap is widening and all the politicians over the years have failed the "poor". We have areas in Scotland where life expectancy rates are lower than some war torn, third world type countries. In certain areas of Glasgow you get a telegram from the Queen when you are 50! You can't build a country around Call Centres and Soldering TV's in East Kilbride. We need to be building things again, and giving people a purpose. Just to rub the noses of the "poor Scot" into the dirt, we have spent £800 billion (10 times the previous National Debt) into rescuing the banks which were run by corrupt incompetents. The ordinary Scot has not only had to endure the Industrial vandalism that tore the heart out of Scotland, but has had to suffer continual patronising from a succession of politicians who have promised to reconnect them to society. Sadly, it is going to get worse before it gets better, as Britain has pretty much run out of ideas and money. No wonder people opt to relocate to other countries.

That said, like yourself I wouldn't want to live in any other country, but then, luckily I dont live in the likes of Glasgow East.


Totally agree - you make a fine argument for independence. No more Scotland being stuck on to the ar*e of a larger neighbour that has been in terminal decline since WW2.

[Green Mikey]

Totally agree - you make a fine argument for independence. No more Scotland being stuck on to the ar*e of a larger neighbour that has been in terminal decline since WW2.

Devolution has not bucked this trend so why do you think that independence would? IMO blaming Scotland's ills on the union is pointless. If Scotland became independent we would still be heavily reliant on England for trade, labour etc so any decline in England would still be felt in Scotland.

Scotland currently has the power and ability to reverse any decline through our devolved parliament. However, I believe it is a sad indictment of this parliament that there is no discernible difference between Scotland and England.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Devolution has not bucked this trend so why do you think that independence would? IMO blaming Scotland's ills on the union is pointless. If Scotland became independent we would still be heavily reliant on England for trade, labour etc so any decline in England would still be felt in Scotland.

Scotland currently has the power and ability to reverse any decline through our devolved parliament. However, I believe it is a sad indictment of this parliament that there is no discernible difference between Scotland and England.

I think there are massive differences between the English NHS, and the Scottish NHS. I would imagine there are similair differences in social care and education.

The devolved parliament seems to have been quite succesful in shaping policy that fits in with Scottish values. (The more sharp eyed readers will have noticed the way I have outrageously contradicted my opening post on this thread btw).

[ancient hibee]

Three items from recent news reports.
1. Primary schools in Edinburgh to close because of falling rolls.


2.Government target of reduced class sizes will not be met.

3.Hundreds of newly qualified teachers can't get jobs.

Why are these situations not being used as an opportunity?Is it because like much of the public sector there are far too many administrators and not enough practicioners?
While I'm having a rant are falling standards in the suitability of school leavers for uni or employment anything to do with the fact that a Higher in some subjects can be obtained with a passmark of 35%?

[Big Ed]

Three items from recent news reports.
1. Primary schools in Edinburgh to close because of falling rolls.


2.Government target of reduced class sizes will not be met.

3.Hundreds of newly qualified teachers can't get jobs.

Why are these situations not being used as an opportunity?Is it because like much of the public sector there are far too many administrators and not enough practicioners?
While I'm having a rant are falling standards in the suitability of school leavers for uni or employment anything to do with the fact that a Higher in some subjects can be obtained with a passmark of 35%?

The three points that you raise appear to be part of a monumental contradiction, but one of the problems with primary schools is the parents of the pupils.
I am in my forties and I can remember my school coming under threat of closure and that was in the early seventies - it's not new.
Parent power can be a powerful thing, but whereas when I went to you had to go to the catchment school, now parents can choose which school they send their children to.
Local councils have to go to ridiculous lenghts to try and find out whether parents are lying about addresses etc. so that they can get their children into the school of their choice.
As a result, the percieved better schools are over subscibed, whilst others are left with tiny class sizes.
As a result, there less of a requirement for teachers, because there are increasingly less schools.

[Betty Boop]

The three points that you raise appear to be part of a monumental contradiction, but one of the problems with primary schools is the parents of the pupils.
I am in my forties and I can remember my school coming under threat of closure and that was in the early seventies - it's not new.
Parent power can be a powerful thing, but whereas when I went to you had to go to the catchment school, now parents can choose which school they send their children to.
Local councils have to go to ridiculous lenghts to try and find out whether parents are lying about addresses etc. so that they can get their children into the school of their choice.
As a result, the percieved better schools are over subscibed, whilst others are left with tiny class sizes.
As a result, there less of a requirement for teachers, because there are increasingly less schools.

As far as I am aware, Edinburgh council allocates school places, by catchment area.

[s.a.m]

As far as I am aware, Edinburgh council allocates school places, by catchment area.

They do. However, children from outside of the catchment of a school are entitled to apply and, if they can be accommodated, they are legally entitled to a place. Non-district placement requests are allocated according to a set of criteria based mainly on having siblings at preferred school and proximity to the school.

As Big Ed says, there are people who lie about their situation to get into a particular school (although this is quite difficult and involves elaborate ruses, because you have to have documentation to prove your place of residence, including utility bills), and others who go to the lengths of moving house temporarily to gain access. He is also right in saying that some schools have been effectively ghettoised since the introduction of parental choice.

[J-C]

They do. However, children from outside of the catchment of a school are entitled to apply and, if they can be accommodated, they are legally entitled to a place. Non-district placement requests are allocated according to a set of criteria based mainly on having siblings at preferred school and proximity to the school.

As Big Ed says, there are people who lie about their situation to get into a particular school (although this is quite difficult and involves elaborate ruses, because you have to have documentation to prove your place of residence, including utility bills), and others who go to the lengths of moving house temporarily to gain access. He is also right in saying that some schools have been effectively ghettoised since the introduction of parental choice.


I know a lot of people who register their kids at their parents house just so their kids can go to a particular school, happens all the time.

[s.a.m]

I know a lot of people who register their kids at their parents house just so their kids can go to a particular school, happens all the time.

People do, indeed. It does involve a fairly longstanding and complicated lie, though. You have to change your child's principle place of residence, and either pretend that they are no longer living with you (but with their grandparents, and get their grandparents to register them), or get their grandparents utility and council tax accounts changed into your name, if you're pretending to live there.

[ginger_rice]

The problem didn't start with the current Scottish government, the policies of the SNP government are laudable, but unfortunately they landed up in power just as the worst recession since the end of the last war kicked in, this means that there are now financial pressures kicking in that weren't envisaged at the time that the manifesto was drawn up.

Curriculum for Excellence, again inherited from the previous administration, badly needed, especially binning 5-14 and streamlining the whole curriculum, however yet again the squeeze on finances are going to have an impact.

To me the worst thing in Scottish education (apart from PPP schools) at present is the almost universal push for the cheaper academic subjects at the expense of investment in the more vocational subjects, ie brand new schools being built with tiny workshops. This in a country crying out for engineers and tradesmen.

[heretoday]

I didn't enjoy the series. I think I've had enough of sweeping heliviews of sunlit hillsides and of the hirsute presenter too.

I think we are all adult enough to have some facts drilled into us by a proper historian a la David Starkey (although not him actually!) and the voiceover done by a more distinguished act than Mr Oliver.

But everything's got to be tarted up now hasn't it? shame.

Bring back Lord Clark of Civilisation!