STUC urging Celtc fans to protest against Israel

[Betty Boop]

STUC calls on Celtic fans to fly flag for Palestine at Israeli match

Published Date: 28 November 2009
By Tristan Stewart-Robertson
CELTIC fans are being asked to wave Palestinian flags during a football match against Israeli team Hapoel Tel Aviv in protest at the invasion of Gaza last year.The controversial call by the Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC) came in advance of the Europa League match next Wednesday, which will be seen by millions of football fans.

The gesture is aimed to cause maximum embarrassment to the Israeli ambassador to the UK, Ron Prosor, who is travelling from London to attend the game.

Union bosses said the flag-waving move was designed to mark the anniversary of the invasion and the deaths of "1,400 men, women and children".

But such an action by fans could fall foul of Celtic's own code of conduct, which states supporters at the ground would be guilty of "disorderly conduct" if they stir up "hatred or ill-will towards individuals or groups of people" because of "national origin".

The move might also cause division within the club itself – the Celtic chairman and former home secretary John Reid was an early member of Labour Friends of Israel, and his wife, Carine Adler, is Jewish.

STUC deputy general secretary Dave Moxham said: "When the Israeli team Hapoel Tel Aviv visit Celtic Park on Wednesday night, millions around the world will be watching, including those living in Israel and Palestine.

"I am today writing to Celtic FC and Hapoel Tel Aviv FC outlining the reasons and purpose of this call and making clear that we attach no blame either to Hapoel Tel Aviv players, nor their fans, for the outrageous actions of their government.

"We hope that Celtic fans will join with us in a demonstration of support for a just and lasting peace in Israel/Palestine based on a safe and secure Palestinian homeland."

Former Lord Provost of Glasgow and Celtic fan Alex Mosson said he backed the STUC plans and vowed to wear a Palestinian flag around his shoulders next Wednesday night.

He said: "The fans who take part will be highlighting the cruel injustice being perpetrated on the Palestinian people. They are victims and have been since the ethnic cleansing of Palestine which took place in 1948."

Last night, however, a leading member of the Jewish community in Scotland condemned the STUC's proposal as divisive and said it would not help the peace process.

Dr Ken Collins, a former president of the Glasgow Jewish Representative Council, said: "The important thing is that sport should be used to bring people together, not to pull them apart.

"There are people on both sides who make peace difficult and there are people of goodwill on both sides who are trying to bring communities together. Israeli football teams have Jews and Arabs in their sides. Any attempt to use sport to divide people is completely wrong."

Officials of Celtic FC also voiced concern over the planned protest.

A club spokesman said a crowded football match was "not the place for a public demonstration" and urged supporters not to compromise safety at Celtic Park.

Such behaviour could breach Uefa regulations and have consequences for Celtic, the spokesman warned.

He went on: "Celtic FC urges our supporters to come and back the team and for everyone attending Celtic Park on Wednesday evening to behave in a responsible manner that does not compromise or divert resources from public safety or bring the club into disrepute."

In January, Rangers denied reports player Madjid Bougherra would wear a black armband in an on-pitch protest over Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

During a 2006 match between Rangers and Israeli side Maccabi Haifa, a member of a Scots-Palestinian campaign group raced across the Ibrox pitch draped in a Palestinian flag and wearing a T-shirt depicting the Pope. He also yelled sectarian remarks and was dragged away by police.

He was given 200 hours community service and a Europe-wide football banning order.

[Future17]

STUC calls on Celtic fans to fly flag for Palestine at Israeli match


Strange one. As much as I think the Israel/Palestine conflict needs urgent attention, I don't agree with a football match as the place to conduct this sort of demonstration.

Don't know much about the STUC but this seems like a pretty irresponsible call from them.

[ArabHibee]

Smeltc fans won't do this - coz it won't piss off Rangkers fans.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Smeltc fans won't do this - coz it won't piss off Rangkers fans.

I believe Rangers fans, in their usual cute misguided manner, have already started to take the Star of David to their matches. That is the crazy mixed up world that is known as Western Scotland. If you don't support one side in an argument, you support the other by default.

[ginger_rice]

Keep politics out of sport....don't think I need to say any more than that. :agree:

[The Green Goblin]

Keep politics out of sport....don't think I need to say any more than that. :agree:

I agree. And in this case, as others have said, it`s got nothing to do with supposed altruistic or noble motives from the celtic fans.

GG

[Betty Boop]

Keep politics out of sport....don't think I need to say any more than that. :agree:

Has a precedent not been set though, with the holding of minutes silence, poppies on footballers shirts, the Kop protesting about the imprisonment of Michael Shields etc, etc?

[ArabHibee]

Has a precedent not been set though, with the holding of minutes silence, poppies on footballers shirts, the Kop protesting about the imprisonment of Michael Shields etc, etc?

Not sure why you are questioning this. He was a Liverpool fan who was convicted of an attack which happened after a Liverpool European match. I wouldn't look on that as a political protest.

[Ed De Gramo]

Ban any individual from attending football matches for the next 10 years (if not life)....bringing politics into sporting events isn't right...

[Betty Boop]

Not sure why you are questioning this. He was a Liverpool fan who was convicted of an attack which happened after a Liverpool European match. I wouldn't look on that as a political protest.

What kind of protest was it then? Liverpool FC, fans and officials all demanded his release, and the players wore "Free Michael Now" tee-shirts in the warm-up at their game against West Ham. This was in breach of the FA's rules which bans political protest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2008/dec/03/liverpool-michael-shields

[Sir David Gray]

Absolutely ridiculous and I'm not just saying that because of my support of Israel.

Politics and religion, no matter what side of the coin you are on, should be kept completely out of football. When I go to a game, I go to watch Hibs with other Hibs fans (who have different views from me on political and religious issues) to hopefully see Hibs win. I don't think about politics or religion when I'm at the football. If I felt so strongly about a particular political issue, I would attend a rally.

It's totally inappropriate to have this sort of thing at a match and if something similar was organised for a Hibs game, I would seriously consider boycotting the match.

And by the way, I would say exactly the same thing if some pro-Israeli group was urging football fans to show their support for Israel.

In my view, this is also totally different from asking football fans to hold a minute's silence for British service men and women who have died whilst fighting for their country. When I fall silent each year, it's not to endorse a particular war or to pay respects to a particular politician, it's all about the people in the Armed Forces. Those are our soldiers and it's entirely appropriate that we remember those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

[LiverpoolHibs]

A genuine question, could those saying that sport and politics should never be allowed to mix put together an argument for why that should be?

It seems to be a very popular idea in Scotland and England, yet something that would be absolutely baffling to football fans in most countries.

[ArabHibee]

What kind of protest was it then? Liverpool FC, fans and officials all demanded his release, and the players wore "Free Michael Now" tee-shirts in the warm-up at their game against West Ham. This was in breach of the FA's rules which bans political protest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2008/dec/03/liverpool-michael-shields

My last post maybe wasn't very clear. The point I was trying to make is that I can understand why Liverpool fans and the club would want to make a protest or raise the profile of this case as he was a Liverpool fan. I'm not aware if this breaks rules or not.

What I can't understand is the STUC wanting a protest at Darkheid. Smeltc have nothing to do with Palestine or Israel and only just happen to be playing a team from Israel.

[Phil D. Rolls]

A genuine question, could those saying that sport and politics should never be allowed to mix put together an argument for why that should be?

It seems to be a very popular idea in Scotland and England, yet something that would be absolutely baffling to football fans in most countries.

I think sport is where we set aside our diferences and express our humanity. The rivalry of the contest is all that's required, and it is a time for leisure and enjoyment rather than contemplating the serious issues of everyday life.

Of course sport and politics do mix. England buying the wrold cup in 1966, the Tartan Army in the 70s. as an expression of nationalism, even the rugby fans in the 80s and 90s.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I think sport is where we set aside our diferences and express our humanity. The rivalry of the contest is all that's required, and it is a time for leisure and enjoyment rather than contemplating the serious issues of everyday life.

Of course sport and politics do mix. England buying the wrold cup in 1966, the Tartan Army in the 70s. as an expression of nationalism, even the rugby fans in the 80s and 90s.

That's just saying what it is, not why it should be. No?

[Phil D. Rolls]

That's just saying what it is, not why it should be. No?

I don't know why they shouldn't be allowed to mix, and as far as I can see they always have. Well at least back to the days of muscular christianity, that was as much about controlling the masses as anything else.

[Sir David Gray]

A genuine question, could those saying that sport and politics should never be allowed to mix put together an argument for why that should be?

It seems to be a very popular idea in Scotland and England, yet something that would be absolutely baffling to football fans in most countries.

Sport is supposed to unite, it brings people, from different backgrounds, beliefs etc, together.

When you bring politics (or religion) into things, I believe it hinders that unity.

I don't support Hibs because of any political or religious ideology. I support Hibs because they are my football team. I have my own political and religious beliefs and opinions which I have spoken about, at length, on here.

Rangers and Celtic have fans that seem to support their respective clubs because they think that political/religious beliefs and the football team that you support go hand-in-hand, i.e. Protestant Unionist=Rangers fan, Roman Catholic Irish republican=Celtic fan. I don't want Hibs to be like either of those teams.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Sport is supposed to unite, it brings people, from different backgrounds, beliefs etc, together.

When you bring politics (or religion) into things, I believe it hinders that unity.

Is it? That's new to me, it often seems more divisive than politics.


I don't support Hibs because of any political or religious ideology. I support Hibs because they are my football team. I have my own political and religious beliefs and opinions which I have spoken about, at length, on here.

Rangers and Celtic have fans that seem to support their respective clubs because they think that political/religious beliefs and the football team that you support go hand-in-hand, i.e. Protestant Unionist=Rangers fan, Roman Catholic Irish republican=Celtic fan. I don't want Hibs to be like either of those teams.

Antipathy to Celtic and Rangers was my inkling for what drives it. It's still not much of an argument.

[Sir David Gray]

Is it? That's new to me, it often seems more divisive than politics.

I was talking more about it bringing unity amongst the same set of supporters, rather than uniting every single football fan. I agree that football rivalries are extremely divisive.

Hibs, as a club, should unite every single Hibs fan, when we are at games. When I am at a Hibs game, I am a Hibs supporter and nothing else and I view other people as Hibs supporters and nothing else.

If other outside elements are added to the mix, with the intention of making a political point, it has the potential to divide people who should be united for 90 minutes.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I was talking more about it bringing unity amongst the same set of supporters, rather than uniting every single football fan. I agree that football rivalries are extremely divisive.

Hibs, as a club, should unite every single Hibs fan, when we are at games. When I am at a Hibs game, I am a Hibs supporter and nothing else and I view other people as Hibs supporters and nothing else.

If other outside elements are added to the mix, with the intention of making a political point, it has the potential to divide people who should be united for 90 minutes.

Again, it's news to me! :greengrin

I'm not suggesting the Hibs support should be coerced into an artificially imposed political bloc, I'm more wondering why so many people are so opposed to the idea of it when it might spring up through certain socio-economic circumstances. And, in non-O.F. Scotland at least, I think it must be the Rangers-Celtic factor.

[Pete]

If it was any other club than Celtic then I might agree with it.

I really can't stand that club. They seem to make it their business to right the wrongs of the world and champion the causes of the oppressed. It's as if they take the moral high ground whenever they can....just to try and enforce this self-titled "best fans in the world" crap.

Their collective heads are so far up so many other clubs erses it's embarrasing.

Maybe I'm wrong. Remember when Rangers fans were raping and pillaging in Manchester, the ten million Celtic fans who were in Lisbon working in soup kitchens, freeing wrongly convicted prisoners and getting pandas to mate were rightly horrified.

**** off Celtic...you're fooling nobody.

[hibsbollah]

If it was any other club than Celtic then I might agree with it.

I really can't stand that club. They seem to make it their business to right the wrongs of the world and champion the causes of the oppressed. It's as if they take the moral high ground whenever they can....just to try and enforce this self-titled "best fans in the world" crap.

Their collective heads are so far up so many other clubs erses it's embarrasing.

Maybe I'm wrong. Remember when Rangers fans were raping and pillaging in Manchester, the ten million Celtic fans who were in Lisbon working in soup kitchens, freeing wrongly convicted prisoners and getting pandas to mate were rightly horrified.

**** off Celtic...you're fooling nobody.

:faf::top marks
Absolutely. I have no problem with politics and sport combining (saying the two shouldnt mix was something I first heard when people were trying to defend cricket tours to apartheid South Africa, didnt make sense then and doesnt now) but whenever Celtc is involved its immediately devalued.

[LiverpoolHibs]

:faf::top marks
Absolutely. I have no problem with politics and sport combining (saying the two shouldnt mix was something I first heard when people were trying to defend cricket tours to apartheid South Africa, didnt make sense then and doesnt now) but whenever Celtc is involved its immediately devalued.

Although I agree with peterdouglas' and your sentiments with regards to Celtic, given that it's a STUC initiative I think it would be petty and puerile to oppose it purely because it's Celtic taking part.

[Greentinted]

Was having a wee nose through the Scotsman website and came across this:

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/STUC-calls-on-Celtic-fans.5866448.jp

While my knowledge of Middle-Eastern politics is sketchy at best I can't see the relevance of The STUC urging any group of football supporters to actively protest against (or for)a situation outwith a football context. While Celtc, Flags and political posturing seem to be in some way always inter-threaded surely the powers-that-be should be doing all they can to intervene and prevent such action. Its bad enough when politics and sport become naturally (some would say inevatably) entwined but WTF are the STUC thinking about? (I have no stance on the actual conflict itself other than a sadness that many people are maimed, lose lives or bereaved.)

[hibsbollah]

Although I agree with peterdouglas' and your sentiments with regards to Celtic, given that it's a STUC initiative I think it would be petty and puerile to oppose it purely because it's Celtic taking part.

I think i'll have to say 'guilty as charged':wink:

[Pete]

Although I agree with peterdouglas' and your sentiments with regards to Celtic, given that it's a STUC initiative I think it would be petty and puerile to oppose it purely because it's Celtic taking part.

It's the fact they're using Celtic as the vehichle.

It simlpy enforces the "rent a mob" opinion people have about them.

Who you gonna call?...Celtic...the freedom fighters and chapions of the people.

Why don't they bin the sponsor on their shirt and have a big "S" instead?:bitchy:

[monktonharp]

Was having a wee nose through the Scotsman website and came across this:

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/STUC-calls-on-Celtic-fans.5866448.jp

While my knowledge of Middle-Eastern politics is sketchy at best I can't see the relevance of The STUC urging any group of football supporters to actively protest against (or for)a situation outwith a football context. While Celtc, Flags and political posturing seem to be in some way always inter-threaded surely the powers-that-be should be doing all they can to intervene and prevent such action. Its bad enough when politics and sport become naturally (some would say inevatably) entwined but WTF are the STUC thinking about? (I have no stance on the actual conflict itself other than a sadness that many people are maimed, lose lives or bereaved.)Ithink the STUC have not been too clever on this move.my knowledge,or lets say opinion of this paticular Palestinian situation leads me to support any action against the occupation of Palestine,by any foreign power. 1400 civilians is a tad conservative, however a protest outwith the football ground might have been a better suggestion,on the arrival of Israeli dignitaries.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I think the STUC are under the misapprehension that there will be many Celtc fans there in midweek.

:cool2:

[Betty Boop]

Robbie Fowler

Man-of-the-people Fowler celebrated scoring against SK Brann in a European Cup-Winners' Cup quarter-final in March 1997 by pulling up his kit to unveil a T-shirt expressing support for striking Liverpool dockers. The workers had been locked out 18 months earlier by the Mersey Docks & Harbour Company after a pay and working practices dispute.

The gesture - which had been his team-mate Steve McManaman's idea - earned him great admiration in his home city and further afield, but Uefa took a dimmer view. He was fined £900 by the football's European governing body for an inappropriate political gesture. Still, he could certainly a afford it.

[Gatecrasher]

I think it's one thing for a club or player to support a local cause as the local
community is very important to a football club and another for someone asking a clubs fans to support something the fans may not all agree on, while I'm aware some Celtic fans have taken Palestine flags to games doesn't mean they all want it there.

[lucky]

Great idea by the STUC sport has used time and time again to highlight political causes. The people Palestine deserve the right to choose their government not have their land snatched by an invading army. If only one person joins the protest it will have worked because footie fans across Scotland are already talking about the Palestine people cause. So the STUC will have got it right. Remember the STUC are the collective voice of Scotlands unions.

[Brizo]

At the risk of making light of what is a serious subject , im guessing the STUC have picked this fitba fixture to stage a demonstration as they know that in the Celtc support they have a ready made rent a cause element who will take any opportunity to wave a wee flag in support of oppressed peoples :devil:.

From what ive read of that element of their support itll all end in tears, By half time theyll be riven with splitters with the Real Friends of Palestine and the Official Friends of Palestine and the Peoples Front of Palestine all squabbling with each other to proclaim themselves as the real voice of ra Celtc support.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Great idea by the STUC sport has used time and time again to highlight political causes. The people Palestine deserve the right to choose their government not have their land snatched by an invading army. If only one person joins the protest it will have worked because footie fans across Scotland are already talking about the Palestine people cause. So the STUC will have got it right. Remember the STUC are the collective voice of Scotlands unions.

Normally I might agree with you, but I think the STUC has to consider whether they would be doing this if (say) Rangers were playing an Israeli club, which they did three seasons ago (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6351733.stm). I think the STUC is in danger of intertwining itself with a sectarian / political agenda that some people have, whereby violent Irish republicanism is identified with the (legitimate) calls for Palestinian statehood.

[lucky]

The reason the protest is now is at the last STUC conference the unions backed a motion to support Palestine people and their cause. I think it was the FBU who are behind this

[hibee_boy]

Loyalists = Pro Britain
Republicans = Anti-Britain

and

Isreal = Pro Britain
Palestine = Anti-Britain

therefore

Rangers = Pro Britain
Celtic = Anti-Britain

and

Isreal = Rangers
Palestine = Celtic

its just a case of "if you say black I say white".
Gaurenteed most rangers and celtic fans dont have the inteligence to understand what the conflict is about.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Great idea by the STUC sport has used time and time again to highlight political causes. The people Palestine deserve the right to choose their government not have their land snatched by an invading army. If only one person joins the protest it will have worked because footie fans across Scotland are already talking about the Palestine people cause. So the STUC will have got it right. Remember the STUC are the collective voice of Scotlands unions.

Not exactly a big power bloc these days. How many people are they actually speaking for? Maybe that's why they have to hire help in the form of the Celtic support rather than organise their own protest.


At the risk of making light of what is a serious subject , im guessing the STUC have picked this fitba fixture to stage a demonstration as they know that in the Celtc support they have a ready made rent a cause element who will take any opportunity to wave a wee flag in support of oppressed peoples :devil:.

From what ive read of that element of their support itll all end in tears, By half time theyll be riven with splitters with the Real Friends of Palestine and the Official Friends of Palestine and the Peoples Front of Palestine all squabbling with each other to proclaim themselves as the real voice of ra Celtc support.

What about the People's Popular Front of Judea?


Normally I might agree with you, but I think the STUC has to consider whether they would be doing this if (say) Rangers were playing an Israeli club, which they did three seasons ago (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6351733.stm). I think the STUC is in danger of intertwining itself with a sectarian / political agenda that some people have, whereby violent Irish republicanism is identified with the (legitimate) calls for Palestinian statehood.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Can't see much difference between Irish people fighting a foreign invader, and Palestinians fighting a "foreign" invader.

[greenginger]

its just a case of "if you say black I say white".
Gaurenteed most rangers and celtic fans dont have the inteligence to understand what the conflict is about.[/QUOTE]


Israel have blue in their flag, they must be Proddies :greengrin

Palestine have green in their flag, they must be Tims :greengrin

That's all the Knuckle draggers need to Know.

[McIntosh]

Has a precedent not been set though, with the holding of minutes silence, poppies on footballers shirts, the Kop protesting about the imprisonment of Michael Shields etc, etc?

Quoted for truth, politics have always been involved with football either directly or indirectly, for example Franco and Real Madrid, the Ugly ladies in the West and our own dear football club.

[McIntosh]

Absolutely ridiculous and I'm not just saying that because of my support of Israel.

Politics and religion, no matter what side of the coin you are on, should be kept completely out of football. When I go to a game, I go to watch Hibs with other Hibs fans (who have different views from me on political and religious issues) to hopefully see Hibs win. I don't think about politics or religion when I'm at the football. If I felt so strongly about a particular political issue, I would attend a rally.

It's totally inappropriate to have this sort of thing at a match and if something similar was organised for a Hibs game, I would seriously consider boycotting the match.

And by the way, I would say exactly the same thing if some pro-Israeli group was urging football fans to show their support for Israel.

In my view, this is also totally different from asking football fans to hold a minute's silence for British service men and women who have died whilst fighting for their country. When I fall silent each year, it's not to endorse a particular war or to pay respects to a particular politician, it's all about the people in the Armed Forces. Those are our soldiers and it's entirely appropriate that we remember those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

I just about choked reading this nonsense, Israel is a sectarian state of the lowest order, it is guilty of war crimes, not my words the United Nations. Sport and politics do mix and must mix and very effectively at times they do - South Africa is a good case in point.

As for the STUC's laudable effort it is to small, we should have complete economic and sporting sanctions against Israel - I never knowingly buy anything from the country. In respect to paying respects to the death of 'our' soliders you will be surely remembering the murder of British soliders by Isreali terrorists at the King David Hotel!

[Golden Bear]

Great idea by the STUC sport has used time and time again to highlight political causes. The people Palestine deserve the right to choose their government not have their land snatched by an invading army. If only one person joins the protest it will have worked because footie fans across Scotland are already talking about the Palestine people cause. So the STUC will have got it right. Remember the STUC are the collective voice of Scotlands unions.


Unfortunately.

I would like to think that I pay my subs to enable the Union to negotiatiate
pay rises, improve my working conditions or support me in employment grievances/potential disciplinary procedures.

I strongly object if my subs are helping to subsidise the STUC in promoting political action such as this - especially in a sporting environment.

[anon1]

I wish somebody would aim the scuds at Parkhead & Ibrox...

[McIntosh]

[/I]


Unfortunately.

I would like to think that I pay my subs to enable the Union to negotiatiate
pay rises, improve my working conditions or support me in employment grievances/potential disciplinary procedures.

I strongly object if my subs are helping to subsidise the STUC in promoting political action such as this - especially in a sporting environment.


Attend meetings, get involved, get elected or is that the kind of political actions you strongly object too?

I find it hard to believe that anyone can criticise people or organisations protesting against the sporting representatives of a state which has committed war crimes. I wonder if you objected to the sporting boycott of South Africa, if you did, hide your head in shame.

I repeat complete economic, political and sporting sanctions against the sectarian state which is Israel.

[Sir David Gray]

I just about choked reading this nonsense, Israel is a sectarian state of the lowest order, it is guilty of war crimes, not my words the United Nations. Sport and politics do mix and must mix and very effectively at times they do - South Africa is a good case in point.

As for the STUC's laudable effort it is to small, we should have complete economic and sporting sanctions against Israel - I never knowingly buy anythong from the country. In respect to paying respects to the death of 'our' soliders you will be surely remembering the murder of British soliders by Isreali terrorists at the King David Hotel!

It's funny how you have mentioned the UN's condemnation of Israel's actions during last year's war and yet you have made absolutely no comment on the UN's equally damning verdict on Hamas' role during the whole conflict. Perhaps you just forgot to mention that part...:rolleyes:

Hamas, by the way, are the democratically elected government of the Gaza Strip (which I keep hearing from pro-Palestinian quarters). Their stated aim is to have the whole area (Gaza, West Bank and the whole of Israel) turned into an Islamic state and to kill as many Jews as possible (they're all pigs and monkeys as well, by the way).

As for you never buying anything from Israel, that is entirely your choice. It's one thing to personally boycott goods from a particular country and quite something else to hold a public protest like this where you are urging thousands of people, who just want to watch a game of football, to get involved in something that they may or may not agree with.

Like I said earlier, it divides people who should be united for 90 minutes in their support of the football team that they all follow.

It's also a great point that someone else made earlier about why the STUC never made such a plea to Rangers fans when they played Maccabi Haifa and Hapoel Tel Aviv a few years ago. I think the STUC are trying to manipulate the perceived political leanings of Rangers and Celtic here and stoke up the sectarian divisions that already exist between the two teams, a sectarian situation that you seem to hate so much, with regards to Israel.


Unfortunately.

I would like to think that I pay my subs to enable the Union to negotiatiate
pay rises, improve my working conditions or support me in employment grievances/potential disciplinary procedures.

I strongly object if my subs are helping to subsidise the STUC in promoting political action such as this - especially in a sporting environment.

Spot on. :top marks

[Betty Boop]

It's funny how you have mentioned the UN's condemnation of Israel's actions during last year's war and yet you have made absolutely no comment on the UN's equally damning verdict on Hamas' role during the whole conflict. Perhaps you just forgot to mention that part...:rolleyes:

Hamas, by the way, are the democratically elected government of the Gaza Strip (which I keep hearing from pro-Palestinian quarters). Their stated aim is to have the whole area (Gaza, West Bank and the whole of Israel) turned into an Islamic state and to kill as many Jews as possible (they're all pigs and monkeys as well, by the way).

Nope, Hamas has stated that if Israel were to offer a genuine two state solution with a return to its 1967 borders, they would accept that, and it would lead to its official recognition of Israel. Israel doesn't want peace as they have proved by their continuation of settlement building, despite constant pleas from their ally the US, a stance you have agreed with numerous times on the Holy Ground. Israel doesn't want Palestine to exist in any way shape or form.

[LiverpoolHibs]

It's funny how you have mentioned the UN's condemnation of Israel's actions during last year's war and yet you have made absolutely no comment on the UN's equally damning verdict on Hamas' role during the whole conflict. Perhaps you just forgot to mention that part...

Or perhaps he recognised it for the menadacious and cowardly attempt at pseudo-even-handedness that it was?

[basehibby]

I was totally disgusted by Israel's actions the other year - even if they could claim provocation by the idiotic Hamas it was murderously disproportionate - and I don't see anything wrong with demonstrating the disgust which was probably felt by most people in Scotland.
The timing of this fixture against Israeli opposition - two years after the event - means it does make some sense, but it just had to be Smelltic didn't it?!?!?

I don't have a problem with highlighting the issue but will not look forward to the inevitable sanctimonious posturing from the self-appointed GFITW :yawn:

[LiverpoolHibs]

I was totally disgusted by Israel's actions the other year - even if they could claim provocation by the idiotic Hamas it was murderously disproportionate - and I don't see anything wrong with demonstrating the disgust which was probably felt by most people in Scotland.
The timing of this fixture against Israeli opposition - two years after the event - means it does make some sense, but it just had to be Smelltic didn't it?!?!?

I don't have a problem with highlighting the issue but will not look forward to the inevitable sanctimonious posturing from the self-appointed GFITW :yawn:

Which they couldn't...

[number 27]

Now I may be wong but I thought that Hapoel were traditionally the team of the left-wing working class community who tend to oppose the more radical Zionist elements in Israel. Surely that would make this fixture a slightly strange choice for a protest :dunno:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Now I may be wong but I thought that Hapoel were traditionally the team of the left-wing working class community who tend to oppose the more radical Zionist elements in Israel. Surely that would make this fixture a slightly strange choice for a protest :dunno:

Nah, you're right. It will be interesting to see how it's received by them.

This is the STUC statement, by the way.

http://www.stuc.org.uk/news/700/celtic-fans-palestinian-flags

[basehibby]

Which they couldn't...

Hamas's return to launching indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israeli border towns was definately provocation IMO - although that doesn't justify the barbarity of the Israeli response

[McIntosh]

Or perhaps he recognised it for the menadacious and cowardly attempt at pseudo-even-handedness that it was?

Thank you, I couldn't have put it better or more eloquently.

Peace will only come when Zionist imperialism is challenged, curtailed and defeated. Protests and sanctions both political and economic are the means to acheive this. In respect to Hamas, they are a response to international inactivity that is what the West and the apologists for Israel fail to understand.

Human rights for human beings and without justice for all there can be no peace.

[heretoday]

How cynical and exploitative of the STUC to use football supporters in this way.

Few if any any of the Celtic fans waving these flags will have a clue about the history of the middle east conflict.

It does the STUC no credit at all and in fact undermines the Palestinian cause in my opinion.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Hamas's return to launching indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israeli border towns was definately provocation IMO - although that doesn't justify the barbarity of the Israeli response

I don't really want to derail the thread. But in the interests of accuracy...

The Hamas rocket attacks in November of last year (which, incidentally, injured no-one) were a response to Israel breaking the Egyptian brokered ceasefire through a raid and airstrike on Gaza which killed six Hamas members.

Citation here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5089940.ece) and here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians)

'Cast Lead' was planned months and years in advance.

[McIntosh]

It does the STUC no credit at all and in fact undermines the Palestinian cause in my opinion.

How?

[Golden Bear]

Attend meetings, get involved, get elected or is that the kind of political actions you strongly object too?

I find it hard to believe that anyone can criticise people or organisations protesting against the sporting representatives of a state which has committed war crimes. I wonder if you objected to the sporting boycott of South Africa, if you did, hide your head in shame.

I repeat complete economic, political and sporting sanctions against the sectarian state which is Israel.

Exactly

The Tel Aviv players are professional sportsmen (not politicians), who are trying to earn a crust for themselves and their families so I fail to see why they should be subjected to political protests.

Who knows - they may well be against the actions of their own government but surely they have the right to earn a living the same as anybody else?

[erskine-hibby]

It wouldn't be like septic fans to get involved with politics that have nothing to do with them:wink:

[McIntosh]

Exactly

The Tel Aviv players are professional sportsmen (not politicians), who are trying to earn a crust for themselves and their families so I fail to see why they should be subjected to political protests.

Who knows - they may well be against the actions of their own government but surely they have the right to earn a living the same as anybody else?

They are the representatives of Israel, the game will be broadcast in Israel and this presents an opportunity to show in a limited way support for the just cause of the Palestinians.

In respect to your final point, here is a picture of one the most shameful episodes in football's history. When instead of protesting football and footballers went along with convention and by default became political.

http://www.theglobalgame.com/images/salute_1938.jpg

[Nailrod]

Great idea by the STUC sport has used time and time again to highlight political causes. The people Palestine deserve the right to choose their government not have their land snatched by an invading army. If only one person joins the protest it will have worked because footie fans across Scotland are already talking about the Palestine people cause. So the STUC will have got it right. Remember the STUC are the collective voice of Scotlands unions.
Wow! Right on John! Er... sound thinking! :rolleyes:

There must be literally millions of plights that we could get Celtc supporters to demonstrate on behalf of. Hey! How about this one:

We could get Cletc supporters to demand that Tony Blair apologises to Neanderthal Man for us Homo Sapiens having cruelly wiped them out - how cool would that be!

They could all dress up as Neanderthal Men for the day, and the great bit is that most of them wouldn't even need masks!

[LiverpoolHibs]

They are the representatives of Israel, the game will be broadcast in Israel and this presents an opportunity to show in a limited way support for the just cause of the Palestinians.

In respect to your final point, here is a picture of one the most shameful episodes in football's history. When instead of protesting football and footballers went along with convention and by default became political.

http://www.theglobalgame.com/images/salute_1938.jpg

Not to mention the fact that Israel has explicitly politicised football given that they routinely fail to issue visas for players called-up to the Palestinian national side for games in World Cup qualifiers and the Asian Cup.

And, of course, the fact that the IDF has killed four Palestinian international footballers; three of them in the conflict that this protest is being held to mark.

[heretoday]

How?

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, the Celtic supporters are going to wave the flag because it noises up the Rangers.

I suppose that it suits the STUC to use football fans involved in the Glasgow sectarian nonsense to advertise a completely different cause. The end justifies the means.

In my opinion that's not genuine protest and therefore cheapens the message.

[McIntosh]

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, the Celtic supporters are going to wave the flag because it noises up the Rangers.

I suppose that it suits the STUC to use football fans involved in the Glasgow sectarian nonsense to advertise a completely different cause. The end justifies the means.

In my opinion that's not genuine protest and therefore cheapens the message.

So you do think that protesting at sports events is perfectly legitimate. I am heartened to hear that you are against 'sectarian nonsense', I am sure that you extend that condemnation to the Israeli brand of sectarianism.

[McIntosh]

Wow! Right on John! Er... sound thinking! :rolleyes:

There must be literally millions of plights that we could get Celtc supporters to demonstrate on behalf of. Hey! How about this one:

We could get Cletc supporters to demand that Tony Blair apologises to Neanderthal Man for us Homo Sapiens having cruelly wiped them out - how cool would that be!

They could all dress up as Neanderthal Men for the day, and the great bit is that most of them wouldn't even need masks!


Well, John is correct and his thinking is perfectly sound. I don't think anyone is looking for apologises the objective it is to keep in the public mind the ongoing suffering of the people of the West Bank and Gaza.

It would be good if you support this, it would be better if you could stop the trite comments when we are talking about the murder of the innocents.

[lucky]

Wow! Right on John! Er... sound thinking! :rolleyes:

There must be literally millions of plights that we could get Celtc supporters to demonstrate on behalf of. Hey! How about this one:

We could get Cletc supporters to demand that Tony Blair apologises to Neanderthal Man for us Homo Sapiens having cruelly wiped them out - how cool would that be!

They could all dress up as Neanderthal Men for the day, and the great bit is that most of them wouldn't even need masks!

I think your missing the point, its not about Celtic its about the plight of the Palestinian people, who have had their land stolen and been forced to live behind a wall with borders controlled by Israeli troops. The STUC are using the Celtic support to highlight the Palestine cause

[ballengeich]

In respect to your final point, here is a picture of one the most shameful episodes in football's history. When instead of protesting football and footballers went along with convention and by default became political.

http://www.theglobalgame.com/images/salute_1938.jpg

It was truly sad that a football game was used to carry out demonstrations in support of a regime that was in favour of violence against Jews.

[crewetollhibee]

Loyalists = Pro Britain
Republicans = Anti-Britain

and

Isreal = Pro Britain
Palestine = Anti-Britain

therefore

Rangers = Pro Britain
Celtic = Anti-Britain

and

Isreal = Rangers
Palestine = Celtic

its just a case of "if you say black I say white".
Gaurenteed most rangers and celtic fans dont have the inteligence to understand what the conflict is about.
Exactly. If Rangers were to be sponsored by McDonald's, Celtic supporters would be packing out Burger King, whether they preferred their burgers or not. The phrase 'herd mentality' is no more apt than when applied to that pair.

[LiverpoolHibs]

It was truly sad that a football game was used to carry out demonstrations in support of a regime that was in favour of violence against Jews.

That isn't nearly as clever or insightful as you think it is.

[ballengeich]

That isn't nearly as clever or insightful as you think it is.

I hope you said that because you condemn the excesses of both sides in the conflict. I do.

[rossi]

Why do Israel's teams even play in European tournaments when the country isn't in Europe.
And those of you that think the OF fans are simply 'thick' are pretty naive.

[ballengeich]

Why do Israel's teams even play in European tournaments when the country isn't in Europe.


Because the Arab countries all refused to play against them as they didn't recognise the country's existence.

[marinello59]

I believe Rangers fans, in their usual cute misguided manner, have already started to take the Star of David to their matches. That is the crazy mixed up world that is known as Western Scotland. If you don't support one side in an argument, you support the other by default.
Surely the STUC will would have asked the Rangers supporters to make the same protest though? Wouldn't they?

[rossi]

Could the Israel clubs not play in the USA's league since the country only exists because the Americans didn't want to be swamped by European Jews after the second world war?

[Nailrod]

I think your missing the point, its not about Celtic its about the plight of the Palestinian people, who have had their land stolen and been forced to live behind a wall with borders controlled by Israeli troops. The STUC are using the Celtic support to highlight the Palestine cause
I think it's you that's missing the point Lucky. The problem in the Middle East is a long-standing and intractable one. None of the people who are now involved in it are personally responsible for the creation of the problem - they just have to find a solution.

I'll happily wager that you don't speak a word of Arabic or Hebrew, and you've never even been to the Middle East far less lived there. Anything that you think you know about the issue, on whichever side, comes to you second, third, or fourth hand, via people who have an axe to grind.

You and your chums at the STUC no more have a solution to the Palestine problem than the Hapoel supporters who will be at Parkhead have a solution to the long-standing and intractable problem of sectarianism in West-coast Scotland, and it would be the height of arrogance for either you or them to make out that you do.

Or to stretch the analogy a little further, let's suppose a bunch of Chinese from Inner Mongolia who don't speak English and have never set foot in Europe, far less Scotland, start to tell me how the UK should resolve the issue of Scottish independence...

I appreciate it's very satisfying to the ego to adopt a dogmatic position on issues like the Palestine problem, but it's really nothing more than sanctimonious posturing and simplistic nonsense. If you and the STUC are really that smart, why not solve one of our own home-grown problems - like West-coast sectarianism for example - before moving on to even more complicated problems that lie further afield.

Sticking your noses into a complex issue like I/P from a position of ignorance isn't actually going to achieve anything at all, apart perhaps from helping in some small way to further polarise attitudes and exacerbate the situation.

[rossi]

Nailrod - how many people on this forum do you think speak Arabic or Hebrew? What odds are you giving?
I find comparing the middle east with west of Scotland sectarianism (sic) pretty trite.
Do you really think that only people that have spent time in the middle east have the right to an opinion on this?

[Crazyhorse]

Why do Israel's teams even play in European tournaments when the country isn't in Europe.
And those of you that think the OF fans are simply 'thick' are pretty naive.
This is a crucial point. 'Politics' and sport are inseparable in respect to the Israeli state. Allowing it to participate in European competitions is a political decision which legitimizes the current Israeli regime and in my view should be protested against at every possible opportunity. Most states in their own geographical region will not play against them until they respect the numerous UN Resolutions which they continue to ignore.
The current Israeli state is committed to ethnic cleansing in respect to Palestinians and increasing implementation of apartheid laws in respect the Arab citizens inside their borders. There is no disputing this and no references to the horrors of the holocaust or Iran's development of nuclear energy, or the fact that they are largely surrounded by countries ruled by despicable regimes changes these facts.

[jgl07]

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, the Celtic supporters are going to wave the flag because it noises up the Rangers.

While Rangers fans would protest with their trademark Hitler salutes!

[Velma Dinkley]

Israel is responsible for the murder of innocent Palestinians. And Palestine is responsible for the murder of innocent Jews. Are we supposed to value the lives of Palestinians more than Jews? This conflict is far more complex than many people seem to think.

Personally, I find it pretty disgusting that people should try to encourage us to protest against one side, endorsing the other's actions. Protest against the conflict or protest against the murder of innocent people. In any case, I would prefer it if football was kept to the football pitch while religion and politics is dealt with elsewhere.

[monktonharp]

Loyalists = Pro Britain
Republicans = Anti-Britain

and

Isreal = Pro Britain
Palestine = Anti-Britain

therefore

Rangers = Pro Britain
Celtic = Anti-Britain

and

Isreal = Rangers
Palestine = Celtic

its just a case of "if you say black I say white".
Gaurenteed most rangers and celtic fans dont have the inteligence to understand what the conflict is about. and I think you have even less intelligence , do you know,in the slightest instance what is going on in Gazza? ya trumpet!!

[crewetollhibee]

I think it's you that's missing the point Lucky. The problem in the Middle East is a long-standing and intractable one. None of the people who are now involved in it are personally responsible for the creation of the problem - they just have to find a solution.

I'll happily wager that you don't speak a word of Arabic or Hebrew, and you've never even been to the Middle East far less lived there. Anything that you think you know about the issue, on whichever side, comes to you second, third, or fourth hand, via people who have an axe to grind.

You and your chums at the STUC no more have a solution to the Palestine problem than the Hapoel supporters who will be at Parkhead have a solution to the long-standing and intractable problem of sectarianism in West-coast Scotland, and it would be the height of arrogance for either you or them to make out that you do.

Or to stretch the analogy a little further, let's suppose a bunch of Chinese from Inner Mongolia who don't speak English and have never set foot in Europe, far less Scotland, start to tell me how the UK should resolve the issue of Scottish independence...

I appreciate it's very satisfying to the ego to adopt a dogmatic position on issues like the Palestine problem, but it's really nothing more than sanctimonious posturing and simplistic nonsense. If you and the STUC are really that smart, why not solve one of our own home-grown problems - like West-coast sectarianism for example - before moving on to even more complicated problems that lie further afield.

Sticking your noses into a complex issue like I/P from a position of ignorance isn't actually going to achieve anything at all, apart perhaps from helping in some small way to further polarise attitudes and exacerbate the situation.
Top post mate. :top marksYou should perhaps send a copy of that to Mr Brown at 10 Downing St regarding Iraq, Afghanistan, The Middle East or any other future conflict we make our business when we can't sort out our own problems at home.

[monktonharp]

At the risk of making light of what is a serious subject , im guessing the STUC have picked this fitba fixture to stage a demonstration as they know that in the Celtc support they have a ready made rent a cause element who will take any opportunity to wave a wee flag in support of oppressed peoples :devil:.

From what ive read of that element of their support itll all end in tears, By half time theyll be riven with splitters with the Real Friends of Palestine and the Official Friends of Palestine and the Peoples Front of Palestine all squabbling with each other to proclaim themselves as the real voice of ra Celtc support.:yawn:

[monktonharp]

:shocked::clapper:
its just a case of "if you say black I say white".
Gaurenteed most rangers and celtic fans dont have the inteligence to understand what the conflict is about.


Israel have blue in their flag, they must be Proddies :greengrin

Palestine have green in their flag, they must be Tims :greengrin

That's all the Knuckle draggers need to Know.[/QUOTE]nothing like a good auld fashioned debate,with good arguments from both sides.,:yawn:

[monktonharp]

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, the Celtic supporters are going to wave the flag because it noises up the Rangers.

I suppose that it suits the STUC to use football fans involved in the Glasgow sectarian nonsense to advertise a completely different cause. The end justifies the means.

In my opinion that's not genuine protest and therefore cheapens the message.I do not know exactly what axe you have to grind,but it seems to me thjat you have some kind of angle. what the f/ck has it to do with Celtic fans against Israel? It just so happens that their club are playing a club,from a country that has invaded another country.aye, I,m, right behind you mate, those nasty union organisers have pounced on the chance to get all these moronic fitba' fans (catholics no doubt) to get it right up the proddies:yawn:

[monktonharp]

It's funny how you have mentioned the UN's condemnation of Israel's actions during last year's war and yet you have made absolutely no comment on the UN's equally damning verdict on Hamas' role during the whole conflict. Perhaps you just forgot to mention that part...:rolleyes:

Hamas, by the way, are the democratically elected government of the Gaza Strip (which I keep hearing from pro-Palestinian quarters). Their stated aim is to have the whole area (Gaza, West Bank and the whole of Israel) turned into an Islamic state and to kill as many Jews as possible (they're all pigs and monkeys as well, by the way).

As for you never buying anything from Israel, that is entirely your choice. It's one thing to personally boycott goods from a particular country and quite something else to hold a public protest like this where you are urging thousands of people, who just want to watch a game of football, to get involved in something that they may or may not agree with.

Like I said earlier, it divides people who should be united for 90 minutes in their support of the football team that they all follow.

It's also a great point that someone else made earlier about why the STUC never made such a plea to Rangers fans when they played Maccabi Haifa and Hapoel Tel Aviv a few years ago. I think the STUC are trying to manipulate the perceived political leanings of Rangers and Celtic here and stoke up the sectarian divisions that already exist between the two teams, a sectarian situation that you seem to hate so much, with regards to Israel.



Spot on. :top marks you seem to have a whole grip on everything that's happening in Gaza,eh? never mind the fact that homes,municipal buildings have been destroyed,women and children have been killed,basic neccesseties like water have been cut off,etc etc. dont come on here expecting some of us to swallow your pish about the big bad Hamas,who want to erase Israel from the map when the FACTS ARE IN FRONT OF US! I wont stand by and let people like yersel try and ride roughshot,when facts are facts.BTW,I do not buy Israeli goods,just as I did not buy South African goods during apartheid. call me a silly auld sentimentalist :yawn:

[khib70]

Nope, Hamas has stated that if Israel were to offer a genuine two state solution with a return to its 1967 borders, they would accept that, and it would lead to its official recognition of Israel. Israel doesn't want peace as they have proved by their continuation of settlement building, despite constant pleas from their ally the US, a stance you have agreed with numerous times on the Holy Ground. Israel doesn't want Palestine to exist in any way shape or form.
Hmm. You're absolutely right to suggest that the expansionist settlement policy is a major obstacle to any kind of peace agreement. In the real world only some serious hardball by the US will get it stopped, and it's time Obama actually did something about something anyway.

I don't however share your touching faith in Hamas' belief in peaceful co-existence. That might be their public stance, but it goes a lot deeper than that.

Either way, I really don't believe that a few hundred buckied-up jakies waving Palestinian flags upside down will cause a major policy U-turn by Likud. The STUC should keep its increasingly irrelevant nose out of football and global politics and get on with the job we all pay our subs for them to do.

[Nailrod]

Nailrod - how many people on this forum do you think speak Arabic or Hebrew? What odds are you giving? <snip>Do you really think that only people that have spent time in the middle east have the right to an opinion on this?
No I don't. I have an opinion on the matter myself and I have spent very little time in the Middle East and don't speak Arabic or Hebrew. I wasn't suggesting to Lucky that he's not entitled to an opinion. I was making the point that his opinions, like mine, are entirely based on information coming at us second, third, or fourth hand, through people who have an axe to grind. If you want to dispute that claim, be my guest.

I find comparing the middle east with west of Scotland sectarianism (sic) pretty trite.
Well tough. Whether you like it or not they do share two common characteristics: (1) They are long-standing problems, and (2) There is no simple solution. Again, if you want to dispute that, be my guest. Feel free for example to tell me that Scottish sectarianism is a recent phenomenon, and that there is in fact a simple solution. Then you can go on and tell me what it is. Tell Lucky and the STUC as well. With a bit of luck they'll have the whole thing done and dusted before the match this week, and they can move on to sorting out the Israel-Palestine problem...

The fact of the matter is that a bunch of football supporting ignoramuses taking sides on this issue will achieve the square root of eff all in terms of helping matters.

Let's suppose I'm a moderate supporter of Scottish independence. My team goes to play a team from Inner Mongolia. The match begins, and the TV cameras show a sea of Union Flags being waved by chanting Chinese fans, none of whom have ever set foot in Europe. On their fans' forums (assuming I can speak Chinese) I can read comments like:


Peace will only come when fascist Scottish nationalism is challenged, curtailed and defeated...

It's really going to be a St Paul at Damascus moment, isn't it? I can just see myself now: "Hey! All these years - how wrong I've been! And now I can finally see it... Thank you, thank you, Chinese fans from Inner Mongolia - from now on, I'll always be a Unionist!"

Pointless, sanctimonious, counterproductive, ill-thought-out posturing.

[McIntosh]

It was truly sad that a football game was used to carry out demonstrations in support of a regime that was in favour of violence against Jews.

Correct, justice for all. Though it is sad that the Israelis seem to being doing unto other as has been done unto them, regardless of innocence.

How the bullied becomes the bullies can only lead to the fall of the third temple - you know what I mean.

[oxymoron]

Absolutely ridiculous and I'm not just saying that because of my support of Israel.

Politics and religion, no matter what side of the coin you are on, should be kept completely out of football. When I go to a game, I go to watch Hibs with other Hibs fans (who have different views from me on political and religious issues) to hopefully see Hibs win. I don't think about politics or religion when I'm at the football. If I felt so strongly about a particular political issue, I would attend a rally.

It's totally inappropriate to have this sort of thing at a match and if something similar was organised for a Hibs game, I would seriously consider boycotting the match.

And by the way, I would say exactly the same thing if some pro-Israeli group was urging football fans to show their support for Israel.

In my view, this is also totally different from asking football fans to hold a minute's silence for British service men and women who have died whilst fighting for their country. When I fall silent each year, it's not to endorse a particular war or to pay respects to a particular politician, it's all about the people in the Armed Forces. Those are our soldiers and it's entirely appropriate that we remember those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

spot on!

I would be more sympathetic to protests within sport if it followed an intelligent, informed debate and a principled position reached. Doesnt work like that though - the knuckle-draggers take over and the issue is lost amongst the ignorant bile that pours out.

[McIntosh]

I think it's you that's missing the point Lucky. The problem in the Middle East is a long-standing and intractable one. None of the people who are now involved in it are personally responsible for the creation of the problem - they just have to find a solution.

I'll happily wager that you don't speak a word of Arabic or Hebrew, and you've never even been to the Middle East far less lived there. Anything that you think you know about the issue, on whichever side, comes to you second, third, or fourth hand, via people who have an axe to grind.

You and your chums at the STUC no more have a solution to the Palestine problem than the Hapoel supporters who will be at Parkhead have a solution to the long-standing and intractable problem of sectarianism in West-coast Scotland, and it would be the height of arrogance for either you or them to make out that you do.

Or to stretch the analogy a little further, let's suppose a bunch of Chinese from Inner Mongolia who don't speak English and have never set foot in Europe, far less Scotland, start to tell me how the UK should resolve the issue of Scottish independence...

I appreciate it's very satisfying to the ego to adopt a dogmatic position on issues like the Palestine problem, but it's really nothing more than sanctimonious posturing and simplistic nonsense. If you and the STUC are really that smart, why not solve one of our own home-grown problems - like West-coast sectarianism for example - before moving on to even more complicated problems that lie further afield.

Sticking your noses into a complex issue like I/P from a position of ignorance isn't actually going to achieve anything at all, apart perhaps from helping in some small way to further polarise attitudes and exacerbate the situation.

There is a simple solution the end of the sectarian state - a one state solution with justice for all. This maybe a big idea for you - what happens there effects the national security here, the indifference of people to the terrorist state which is Israel exacerbates a negative reaction.

In respect to visiting the middle east, which I have and I assume you have, I am always struck by the Arab peoples priorities, family, employment and peace, no different from most people on this forum. Nailrod, I would agree it is easy to pretend to knowledge when entirely ignorant, however many here are not, they do not merely have knowledge they have insight.

שָׁלוֹם

[Sir David Gray]

Nope, Hamas has stated that if Israel were to offer a genuine two state solution with a return to its 1967 borders, they would accept that, and it would lead to its official recognition of Israel.

I'm aware that they have made that announcement but I don't believe for one second that Hamas and other Muslim terrorist organisations will be happy until there is no existence of a Jewish state in the Holy Land.

Moreover, I think you'll find that their 1988 charter is still 100% valid, which clearly states that "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam obliterates it" and that "The Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (an inalienable religious endowment in Islam) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered or any part of it should not be given up."

That all seems pretty clear to me.


Israel doesn't want peace as they have proved by their continuation of settlement building, despite constant pleas from their ally the US, a stance you have agreed with numerous times on the Holy Ground.

There are more than 1 million Muslims living in Israel today, there are several mosques where Muslims are free to practice their faith and there are also Islamic universities. On the other hand, how many synagogues exist in Gaza, how many Jews live there and how long do you think someone would last there, if they were to be seen with the Star of David round their neck or caught reading the Torah? Not long would be my guess.


Israel doesn't want Palestine to exist in any way shape or form.

There has never been a nation called "Palestine", it is a geographical region. As I have explained on many occasions, the land that currently makes up Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip was the Jewish homeland from the moment Judaism was established around 4,000 years ago. However, over the centuries, the Jews have been dispersed all over the world as a result of many invasions into their land by different forces.


you seem to have a whole grip on everything that's happening in Gaza,eh?

I like to think that I have a pretty good understanding of the conflict, that doesn't mean you have to agree with my take on things.


never mind the fact that homes,municipal buildings have been destroyed,women and children have been killed,basic neccesseties like water have been cut off,etc etc. dont come on here expecting some of us to swallow your pish about the big bad Hamas, who want to erase Israel from the map when the FACTS ARE IN FRONT OF US!

I don't expect anyone to "swallow" anything. This is a public message board and I have put forward my views on this particular subject, just as you have done as well. Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought that was the whole point of a message board.

As for saying "the facts are in front us" after basically dismissing my FACTS about Hamas, are you trying to tell me that Hamas does not want to obliterate Israel? Maybe you should take a look at the aforementioned 1988 Hamas Charter, extracts of which I have mentioned above in my response to Betty Boop.


I wont stand by and let people like yersel try and ride roughshot,when facts are facts.BTW,I do not buy Israeli goods,just as I did not buy South African goods during apartheid. call me a silly auld sentimentalist :yawn:

Again, I think you are mistaking me for someone else. By all means refuse to buy Israeli goods, I have already said in a previous post that which countries people buy their goods from is entirely their choice.

By the way, has anyone heard how the organisation of this protest is getting on?

[hibsbollah]

By the way, has anyone heard how the organisation of this protest is getting on?

It has been dealt a blow by Celtic objecting to the STUC call (with John Reid as chairman this is not exactly surprising). The STUC have decided to switch their attention to getting Falkirk Hibs banned from messageboard activity for his Zionist fundamentalist views:wink:

[McIntosh]

I'm aware that they have made that announcement but I don't believe for one second that Hamas and other Muslim terrorist organisations will be happy until there is no existence of a Jewish state in the Holy Land.

Moreover, I think you'll find that their 1988 charter is still 100% valid, which clearly states that "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam obliterates it" and that "The Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (an inalienable religious endowment in Islam) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered or any part of it should not be given up."

That all seems pretty clear to me.



There are more than 1 million Muslims living in Israel today, there are several mosques where Muslims are free to practice their faith and there are also Islamic universities. On the other hand, how many synagogues exist in Gaza, how many Jews live there and how long do you think someone would last there, if they were to be seen with the Star of David round their neck or caught reading the Torah? Not long would be my guess.



There has never been a nation called "Palestine", it is a geographical region. As I have explained on many occasions, the land that currently makes up Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip was the Jewish homeland from the moment Judaism was established around 4,000 years ago. However, over the centuries, the Jews have been dispersed all over the world as a result of many invasions into their land by different forces.



I like to think that I have a pretty good understanding of the conflict, that doesn't mean you have to agree with my take on things.



I don't expect anyone to "swallow" anything. This is a public message board and I have put forward my views on this particular subject, just as you have done as well. Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought that was the whole point of a message board.

As for saying "the facts are in front us" after basically dismissing my FACTS about Hamas, are you trying to tell me that Hamas does not want to obliterate Israel? Maybe you should take a look at the aforementioned 1988 Hamas Charter, extracts of which I have mentioned above in my response to Betty Boop.



Again, I think you are mistaking me for someone else. By all means refuse to buy Israeli goods, I have already said in a previous post that which countries people buy their goods from is entirely their choice.

By the way, has anyone heard how the organisation of this protest is getting on?

You and I have one thing in common, we both claim to have a good understanding of the third intifada.

Regardless of this, your interpretaion of history appears to be very stilled and factually incorrect. Until 1947 there was no nation called Israel there was an ethnarcy, tribal kingdom, protectorates and a theocracy but no nation as we would know it. The biblical timelines and archeology are disputed as they are intrisically linked to identity and legitimacy but even arch-supporters of Israel such as Alan Dershowitz acknowledges the tenuous nature of these claims.

In relation to Syria Palestina it came into existence after the שמעון בר כוכבא‎ or Bar Kokhva rebellion and existed in various forms throughout the last two thousand year either as kingdoms or as protectorates.

Let me be clear, for me the objective is the end of Israel as a sectarian state. I believe that peace can only be acheived through justice and human rights for all. I believe in secular governance and find exclusive sectarian states be they Jewish, Muslim, Protestant or Catholic to be destructive and negative. I don't believe that Palestinian blood is more important that Israeli blood, I believe that they all are equally important and worth preserving.

I hope that you consider that the death of the innocents should always be condemned. The actions of the IDF are hard to defend, its hard to defend the indefenseable. I leave you with the words of the Jewish Rabbi, Muslim Prophet and Christian God - Jesus who stated, "For all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" - Matthew 26:52, King James Version.

[cad]

I think it's you that's missing the point Lucky. The problem in the Middle East is a long-standing and intractable one. None of the people who are now involved in it are personally responsible for the creation of the problem - they just have to find a solution.

I'll happily wager that you don't speak a word of Arabic or Hebrew, and you've never even been to the Middle East far less lived there. Anything that you think you know about the issue, on whichever side, comes to you second, third, or fourth hand, via people who have an axe to grind.

You and your chums at the STUC no more have a solution to the Palestine problem than the Hapoel supporters who will be at Parkhead have a solution to the long-standing and intractable problem of sectarianism in West-coast Scotland, and it would be the height of arrogance for either you or them to make out that you do.

Or to stretch the analogy a little further, let's suppose a bunch of Chinese from Inner Mongolia who don't speak English and have never set foot in Europe, far less Scotland, start to tell me how the UK should resolve the issue of Scottish independence...

I appreciate it's very satisfying to the ego to adopt a dogmatic position on issues like the Palestine problem, but it's really nothing more than sanctimonious posturing and simplistic nonsense. If you and the STUC are really that smart, why not solve one of our own home-grown problems - like West-coast sectarianism for example - before moving on to even more complicated problems that lie further afield.

Sticking your noses into a complex issue like I/P from a position of ignorance isn't actually going to achieve anything at all, apart perhaps from helping in some small way to further polarise attitudes and exacerbate the situation.



:top marks

Excellent post ,

[heretoday]

[/I]


Unfortunately.

I would like to think that I pay my subs to enable the Union to negotiatiate
pay rises, improve my working conditions or support me in employment grievances/potential disciplinary procedures.

I strongly object if my subs are helping to subsidise the STUC in promoting political action such as this - especially in a sporting environment.

Hear! Hear!

[lucky]

Your union fees are spent on various activities. These decisions are taken by the leadership by following union polices. When a union joins to the STUC it follows the polices set down by the General council and congress. The polices are supported by the majority of the unions of the STUC. There a few on here who take great delight in union bashing , which is very sad due to a union only being there to represent workers.

[JackRegan]

If it was any other club than Celtic then I might agree with it.

I really can't stand that club. They seem to make it their business to right the wrongs of the world and champion the causes of the oppressed. It's as if they take the moral high ground whenever they can....just to try and enforce this self-titled "best fans in the world" crap.

Their collective heads are so far up so many other clubs erses it's embarrasing.

Maybe I'm wrong. Remember when Rangers fans were raping and pillaging in Manchester, the ten million Celtic fans who were in Lisbon working in soup kitchens, freeing wrongly convicted prisoners and getting pandas to mate were rightly horrified.

**** off Celtic...you're fooling nobody.

the clue is in the title. Its the STUC who are orgainsing this. Celtic have come out and said that they want nothing to do with it and have asked fans to ignore it - as most fans will.

FWIW The STUC can take a run and jump and take their tokenism and posturing elsewhere.

[lucky]

the clue is in the title. Its the STUC who are orgainsing this. Celtic have come out and said that they want nothing to do with it and have asked fans to ignore it - as most fans will.

FWIW The STUC can take a run and jump and take their tokenism and posturing elsewhere.

Why should the STUC not use the supposed ''best best fans in the world'' to highlight the ongoing campaign for freedom and justice for the Palestinian people.

[hibsbollah]

Why should the STUC not use the supposed ''best best fans in the world'' to highlight the ongoing campaign for freedom and justice for the Palestinian people.

Probably because John Reid is a member of 'The Labour Friends of Israel' organisation:rolleyes:
http://www.lfi.org.uk/who_we_are
http://www.scottishfriendsofisrael.org/sixdaywar1.htm

[Golden Bear]

Your union fees are spent on various activities. These decisions are taken by the leadership by following union polices. When a union joins to the STUC it follows the polices set down by the General council and congress. The polices are supported by the majority of the unions of the STUC. There a few on here who take great delight in union bashing , which is very sad due to a union only being there to represent workers.

I'm a Union member who strongly objects to the stance adopted by the STUC.
Sport is sport and politics is politics.

I'll seriously consider cancelling my affiliation fees if the STUC continue with this nonsense.

[khib70]

the clue is in the title. Its the STUC who are orgainsing this. Celtic have come out and said that they want nothing to do with it and have asked fans to ignore it - as most fans will.

FWIW The STUC can take a run and jump and take their tokenism and posturing elsewhere.
Since this is the first post of yours that I totally agree with, I felt it only fair to record the fact:greengrin

Kidding itself on that it is a major player in world politics has been one of the STUC's major failings over many years. As others have said, it's job is to represent union members in their dealings with employers, period. It doesn't do that half as well as it does rentamob posturing. That's why it's unloved, irrelevant and disregarded by anyone with any political power.

As for not buying Israeli goods, that's a democratic freedom people have here and in other democracies (like Israel). Carry on by all means. But keep publishing these handy lists of Israeli products. They don't half help with my shopping choices.:devil:

[LiverpoolHibs]

I think it's you that's missing the point Lucky. The problem in the Middle East is a long-standing and intractable one. None of the people who are now involved in it are personally responsible for the creation of the problem - they just have to find a solution.

I'll happily wager that you don't speak a word of Arabic or Hebrew, and you've never even been to the Middle East far less lived there. Anything that you think you know about the issue, on whichever side, comes to you second, third, or fourth hand, via people who have an axe to grind.

You and your chums at the STUC no more have a solution to the Palestine problem than the Hapoel supporters who will be at Parkhead have a solution to the long-standing and intractable problem of sectarianism in West-coast Scotland, and it would be the height of arrogance for either you or them to make out that you do.

Or to stretch the analogy a little further, let's suppose a bunch of Chinese from Inner Mongolia who don't speak English and have never set foot in Europe, far less Scotland, start to tell me how the UK should resolve the issue of Scottish independence...

I appreciate it's very satisfying to the ego to adopt a dogmatic position on issues like the Palestine problem, but it's really nothing more than sanctimonious posturing and simplistic nonsense. If you and the STUC are really that smart, why not solve one of our own home-grown problems - like West-coast sectarianism for example - before moving on to even more complicated problems that lie further afield.

Sticking your noses into a complex issue like I/P from a position of ignorance isn't actually going to achieve anything at all, apart perhaps from helping in some small way to further polarise attitudes and exacerbate the situation.

Despite the number of '10/10s' etc. that this has got, I'm afraid it's complete and utter nonsense. No-one is allowed to take a informed position on the conflict unless they themselves have first hand experience of it? So no-one was able to object to apartheid South Africa without having lived there? No-one is able to suggest that Robert Mugabe isn't a very nice chap unless they've spent some time in Zimbabwe? Christ, I won't even try to pass judgement on Nazi Germany given I wasn't even born when it was in existence and I've only got the victor's side of the argument...

Absolutely ludicrous.

And, as Paolo Freire observed, there isn't really any such thing as not taking sides in issues such as this, 'Washing one’s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.'

To those objecting to the STUC involving themselves in such a matter, it's called solidarity - it's what trade unionism is founded on.

[McIntosh]

Despite the number of '10/10s' etc. that this has got, I'm afraid it's complete and utter nonsense. No-one is allowed to take a informed position on the conflict unless they themselves have first hand experience of it? So no-one was able to object to apartheid South Africa without having lived there? No-one is able to suggest that Robert Mugabe isn't a very nice chap unless they've spent some time in Zimbabwe? Christ, I won't even try to pass judgement on Nazi Germany given I wasn't even born when it was in existence and I've only got the victor's side of the argument...

Absolutely ludicrous.

And, as Paolo Freire observed, there isn't really any such thing as not taking sides in issues such as this, 'Washing one’s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.'

To those objecting to the STUC involving themselves in such a matter, it's called solidarity - it's what trade unionism is founded on.

:top marks:thumbsup::notworthy:

Well said and well informed - you can't hide quality. You have raised the tone and the bar of these posts. I never thought I would live to see the day that the Pedagogy of the Oppressed was quoted on this forum. If you've not done your PhD, I will supervise you!!!

[McIntosh]

I'm a Union member who strongly objects to the stance adopted by the STUC.
Sport is sport and politics is politics.

No - in the simplistic world of planet Golden Bear, maybe but in the real world all things are political, particularly sport. If you think about it for a moment, the foundation of Hibernians was an overt political statement and act.

[BravestHibs]

I'm aware that they have made that announcement but I don't believe for one second that Hamas and other Muslim terrorist organisations will be happy until there is no existence of a Jewish state in the Holy Land.

Moreover, I think you'll find that their 1988 charter is still 100% valid, which clearly states that "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam obliterates it" and that "The Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (an inalienable religious endowment in Islam) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered or any part of it should not be given up."

That all seems pretty clear to me.



There are more than 1 million Muslims living in Israel today, there are several mosques where Muslims are free to practice their faith and there are also Islamic universities. On the other hand, how many synagogues exist in Gaza, how many Jews live there and how long do you think someone would last there, if they were to be seen with the Star of David round their neck or caught reading the Torah? Not long would be my guess.



There has never been a nation called "Palestine", it is a geographical region. As I have explained on many occasions, the land that currently makes up Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip was the Jewish homeland from the moment Judaism was established around 4,000 years ago. However, over the centuries, the Jews have been dispersed all over the world as a result of many invasions into their land by different forces.



I like to think that I have a pretty good understanding of the conflict, that doesn't mean you have to agree with my take on things.



I don't expect anyone to "swallow" anything. This is a public message board and I have put forward my views on this particular subject, just as you have done as well. Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought that was the whole point of a message board.

As for saying "the facts are in front us" after basically dismissing my FACTS about Hamas, are you trying to tell me that Hamas does not want to obliterate Israel? Maybe you should take a look at the aforementioned 1988 Hamas Charter, extracts of which I have mentioned above in my response to Betty Boop.



Again, I think you are mistaking me for someone else. By all means refuse to buy Israeli goods, I have already said in a previous post that which countries people buy their goods from is entirely their choice.

By the way, has anyone heard how the organisation of this protest is getting on?

You should read 'The 6 days War' by Jeremy Bowen. It may temper your Fox News website based research.

[lucky]

I'm a Union member who strongly objects to the stance adopted by the STUC.
Sport is sport and politics is politics.

I'll seriously consider cancelling my affiliation fees if the STUC continue with this nonsense.
You can not withdraw your affiliation fee as its union who affiliate not individuals.Also the STUC not represent workers in their workplace that's the duty of the unions

[McIntosh]

Probably because John Reid is a member of 'The Labour Friends of Israel' organisation:rolleyes:
http://www.lfi.org.uk/who_we_are
http://www.scottishfriendsofisrael.org/sixdaywar1.htm

A few war criminals on that list, instead of going for jollies in Tel aviv these apologists for murder should be going straight to the Hague.

[Velma Dinkley]

Despite the number of '10/10s' etc. that this has got, I'm afraid it's complete and utter nonsense. No-one is allowed to take a informed position on the conflict unless they themselves have first hand experience of it? So no-one was able to object to apartheid South Africa without having lived there? No-one is able to suggest that Robert Mugabe isn't a very nice chap unless they've spent some time in Zimbabwe? Christ, I won't even try to pass judgement on Nazi Germany given I wasn't even born when it was in existence and I've only got the victor's side of the argument...

Absolutely ludicrous.

And, as Paolo Freire observed, there isn't really any such thing as not taking sides in issues such as this, 'Washing one’s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.'

To those objecting to the STUC involving themselves in such a matter, it's called solidarity - it's what trade unionism is founded on.

I believe Nailrod was explaining that if you have obtained information second or third hand etc then it's extremely easy to be misinformed one way or another. So perhaps peoples' positions on the matter are not as informed as they would have everyone else believe. That doesn't seem absolutely ludicrous or utter nonsense to me.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm aware that they have made that announcement but I don't believe for one second that Hamas and other Muslim terrorist organisations will be happy until there is no existence of a Jewish state in the Holy Land.

Moreover, I think you'll find that their 1988 charter is still 100% valid, which clearly states that "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam obliterates it" and that "The Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (an inalienable religious endowment in Islam) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered or any part of it should not be given up."

That all seems pretty clear to me.

And, of course, the Israeli state has never made comments analogous to or exceeding those of Hamas. Oh no wait.

Defence Minister Matan Vilnai speaking in 2008: "...the Palestinians will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah ['shoah' being the Hebrew referent for the Holocaust in case anyone was wondering] because we will use all our might to defend ourselves."

Or as the I.D.F. spokesman commented during the massacre of Gaza: "We are trying to hit the whole spectrum, because everything is connected and everything supports terrorism against Israel."

The huge difference being the respective levels of power held and the ability of either side to carry out in actuality what is implied in rhetoric. The Hamas threat (although regularly disgustingly anti-semitic, anyone who downplays that is a fool) is just that, almost purely rhetorical; the Israeli threat is far too real.

And also, as a genuine question, why would any Palestinian recognise a state that is predicated on their dispossesion and subordination?

al-Nakba: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba


There are more than 1 million Muslims living in Israel today, there are several mosques where Muslims are free to practice their faith and there are also Islamic universities. On the other hand, how many synagogues exist in Gaza, how many Jews live there and how long do you think someone would last there, if they were to be seen with the Star of David round their neck or caught reading the Torah? Not long would be my guess.

As touching as your apparent concern for Jewish people is, do you think it's slightly undercut by you belief that they are doomed to extermination unless they undergo a mass conversion to Christianity?


There has never been a nation called "Palestine", it is a geographical region. As I have explained on many occasions, the land that currently makes up Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip was the Jewish homeland from the moment Judaism was established around 4,000 years ago. However, over the centuries, the Jews have been dispersed all over the world as a result of many invasions into their land by different forces.

Given your much discussed (and never anything other than thoroughly bizarre) ideas of land allocation, there really isn't much point dealing with this. It's brilliant that the 'word of God' is apparently given greater weight than United Nations' partition plans, though.

[JackRegan]

Why should the STUC not use the supposed ''best best fans in the world'' to highlight the ongoing campaign for freedom and justice for the Palestinian people.

Why did they not enlist the huns fans for similar when they played Happoel?

The fact is, the STUC know Celtic have a few dozen adopt-a-cause merchants who will jump on any Leftist driven or right on cause, so they can say to whoever out there who will listen "hey us Tims are pure dead left wing 'n'at, know? See wur political 'n no jist intae the 'Ra oan thir ain".

Regardless of the rights or wrongs, this conflict has nothing to do with Celtic and our fans should not be used as a rent-a-mob for the ends of others.

Weird that we get panned for being political on the Ireland subject, but its okay when it comes to a more fashionavble political fad. :confused:

Thankfully, the numbers will be the insignificant and it'll be the same ones who sung outside at Falkrik, the same ones who "protested" against Reid's appointment, the same ones who walked out last seaosn over the poppy on the strip, the same ones who attack other tims who happen to go to Private schools, teh same ones who said I was not a real tim because I've got a Merc, or because I bought my old dear's council house.

A bunch of braindead bitter, pathetic, attention seeking class warriors spurred on by the exact same, who just happen to have a veneer of respectablity by virtue of being a member of the STUC.

I might actually go earlier and wind these dicks up.

[dennykillie]

Keep politics out of sport....don't think I need to say any more than that. :agree:

Tell that to the Israeli Government who bombed the football pitches in Gaza and have forcibly stopped the building of a FIFA-backed football stadium in the West Bank!

[LiverpoolHibs]

Why did they not enlist the huns fans for similar when they played Happoel?

Because they hadn't signed up to the BDS movement until April of this year.

[McIntosh]

Regardless of the rights or wrongs, this conflict has nothing to do with Celtic and our fans should not be used as a rent-a-mob for the ends of others.

A bunch of braindead bitter, pathetic, attention seeking class warriors spurred on by the exact same, who just happen to have a veneer of respectablity by virtue of being a member of the STUC.

In relation to your points:

1. It has everything to do with Celtic, they are and this may come as a surprise to certain people on this Board human beings. People are diminished by other peoples suffering your inactivity and contempt exposes your acceptance of a system that makes the banalities of evil so acceptable.

2. In psychology we would call your second point projection. It seems amazing that you expose your own self-loathing in such a public manner.

Tiocfaidh ár lá, has came for you but it seems not to be allowed to happen for other people. I think of you now not as Jack Regan but as "I am alright Jack" Regan.

[JackRegan]

In relation to your points:

1. It has everything to do with Celtic, they are and this may come as a surprise to certain people on this Board human beings. People are diminished by other peoples suffering your inactivity and contempt exposes your acceptance of a system that makes the banalities of evil so acceptable.

2. In psychology we would call your second point projection. It seems amazing that you expose your own self-loathing in such a public manner.

Tiocfaidh ár lá, has came for you but it seems not to be allowed to happen for other people. I think of you now not as Jack Regan but as "I am alright Jack" Regan.

Point 1. Why just Palestinian rights? What about the rights of Chechens and Ingushetians in Russia? Or the Congolese? Or those in Darfur?

Point 2. What self loathing?? I don't watnt Celtic hi-jacked for ANY political cause and I include Irish Republicanism in this - something which directly effects thousands of Celtic fans and some of my own family.

Thought I'd seen it all - someone on Hibs.net basically saying that Celtic should be more political here.

Also, if anyone were to do this it at Ibrox, they'd get kicked to within an inch of their lives.

[BravestHibs]

No explanation necessary. I know exactly why, yet again, you deleted one of my posts. I don't need need to hear the made up reason.

[khib70]

Point 1. Why just Palestinian rights? What about the rights of Chechens and Ingushetians in Russia? Or the Congolese? Or those in Darfur?

Point 2. What self loathing?? I don't watnt Celtic hi-jacked for ANY political cause and I include Irish Republicanism in this - something which directly effects thousands of Celtic fans and some of my own family.

Thought I'd seen it all - someone on Hibs.net basically saying that Celtic should be more political here.

Also, if anyone were to do this it at Ibrox, they'd get kicked to within an inch of their lives.
Scary. Good post again. Darfur, though - Islamic government bankrolling ethnic cleansing by Arab terrorists with Chinese money. Doesn't fit the pattern. Don't expect the STUC to be shouting the odds about that.

Though to be fair, I don't think Celtc will be lining up against a team from the Sudan in the near future.

To return to the point though. The STUC's long standing falilure to mobilise support for anything at all, even things that are their business, makes it unsurprising that they need to hijack a football crowd.

[McIntosh]

Point 1. Why just Palestinian rights? What about the rights of Chechens and Ingushetians in Russia? Or the Congolese? Or those in Darfur?

Point 2. What self loathing?? I don't watnt Celtic hi-jacked for ANY political cause and I include Irish Republicanism in this - something which directly effects thousands of Celtic fans and some of my own family.

Thought I'd seen it all - someone on Hibs.net basically saying that Celtic should be more political here.

Also, if anyone were to do this it at Ibrox, they'd get kicked to within an inch of their lives.

1. Good point.
2. More political activity the better.
3. Sadly, you are right but that is more a reflection on them than us.

[marinello59]

No explanation necessary. I know exactly why, yet again, you deleted one of my posts. It does start to grate after a while though.

If you look I had already deleted the post you quoted so there was no point in leaving yours. I have explained by PM to Khibs70 why his post went. Please don't take everything so personally, there is really no agenda here.
Making veiled allegations against me is unacceptable. If you have a genuine problem then please PM me and I will happily discuss things with you.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Scary. Good post again. Darfur, though - Islamic government bankrolling ethnic cleansing by Arab terrorists with Chinese money. Doesn't fit the pattern. Don't expect the STUC to be shouting the odds about that.

Crikey, we're done with reductionism of the Israel-Palestine conflict and moved on to reductionism of the conflict in Sudan...

[khib70]

Crikey, we're done with reductionism of the Israel-Palestine conflict and moved on to reductionism of the conflict in Sudan...
Sorry. Since we're on the main forum I didn't want to try and match your 800 word, five links, containing whole article from the "Independent" type posts. :greengrinAnd, shockingly :rolleyes: there isn't and as far as I can remember hasn't been a thread on the Holy Ground about Darfur. So I stand by my post.

[McIntosh]

Scary. Good post again. Darfur, though - Islamic government bankrolling ethnic cleansing by Arab terrorists with Chinese money. Doesn't fit the pattern. Don't expect the STUC to be shouting the odds about that.

Though to be fair, I don't think Celtc will be lining up against a team from the Sudan in the near future.

To return to the point though. The STUC's long standing falilure to mobilise support for anything at all, even things that are their business, makes it unsurprising that they need to hijack a football crowd.

What patterns and by who?

War crimes are serious things dealing with terrorist states, i.e Israel is our collective responsibilities - they are our business. So what are you really objecting to - do you think the protest is correct but an inappropriate venue or that the protest itself is incorrect?

If it is that sport and politic shouldn't mix I remind you without being impertinent that they always have.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Sorry. Since we're on the main forum I didn't want to try and match your 800 word, five links, containing whole article from the "Independent" type posts. :greengrinAnd, shockingly :rolleyes: there isn't and as far as I can remember hasn't been a thread on the Holy Ground about Darfur. So I stand by my post.

Righy-ho, and I'll stand by seeing that sort of thing as really rather dangerous in its innacuracy.

Why 'shockingly'?

[khib70]

What patterns and by who?

War crimes are serious things dealing with terrorist states, i.e Israel is our collective responsibilities - they are our business. So what are you really objecting to - do you think the protest is correct but an inappropriate venue or that the protest itself is incorrect?

If it is that sport and politic shouldn't mix I remind you without being impertinent that they always have.


Righy-ho, and I'll stand by seeing that sort of thing as really rather dangerous in its innacuracy.

Why 'shockingly'?
Didn't intend to hijack the thread for a debate on Darfur. But you both deserve a reply, so at the risk of "reductionism" I'll be brief.

The Left has for some years focussed its indignation almost exclusively on the US and Israel, and turned a blind eye to similar or worse crimes than those allegedly committed by those two, when committed by other countries - particularly Arab or Islamic ones.(IMO of course)

And because sport and politics have mixed historically, doesn't mean it's right.
Individuals have been robbed and murdered by governments throughout history. Still wrong, though.

[Woody1985]

No explanation necessary. I know exactly why, yet again, you deleted one of my posts. I don't need need to hear the made up reason.


If you look I had already deleted the post you quoted so there was no point in leaving yours. I have explained by PM to Khibs70 why his post went. Please don't take everything so personally, there is really no agenda here.
Making veiled allegations against me is unacceptable. If you have a genuine problem then please PM me and I will happily discuss things with you.

Is that the paranoia kicking in again? :faf:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Didn't intend to hijack the thread for a debate on Darfur. But you both deserve a reply, so at the risk of "reductionism" I'll be brief.

The Left has for some years focussed its indignation almost exclusively on the US and Israel, and turned a blind eye to similar or worse crimes than those allegedly committed by those two, when committed by other countries - particularly Arab or Islamic ones.(IMO of course)

And because sport and politics have mixed historically, doesn't mean it's right.
Individuals have been robbed and murdered by governments throughout history. Still wrong, though.

Which Arab/Islamic governments are directly responsible for crimes similar or worse than those of the U.S./NATO in Iraq and Afghanistan or Israel in the Occupied Territories and Lebanon?

[7Hero]

politics and religion all rolled together in a hibs football forum, well done the intial poster, ill be staying clear of this thread now that ive finally opened it..

:bye:

[khib70]

Which Arab/Islamic governments are directly responsible for crimes similar or worse than those of the U.S./NATO in Iraq and Afghanistan or Israel in the Occupied Territories and Lebanon?
Sudan, Baa'thist Iraq, Iran, the Taliban. Just to be going on with.

[Dashing Bob S]

Agree with Jack here, actually.

While all political acitivity is to be praised in those passive times, I think that the STUC have taken the soft option.

They also seem to naievely believe that the Celtic fans cynical 'me too, Johnny Hun' sectarian posturing over 'Ireland' is in some way indicative of a radical/revolutionary culture, when it's obvious the reverse is true.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Sudan, Baa'thist Iraq, Iran, the Taliban. Just to be going on with.

Well, firstly I imagine that will be nearly impossible to quantify (and as I've already said, the situation in Sudan is far, far more complex than you have been suggesting). But do you not think there's a fairly obvious reason why 'the Left' in this country may have focussed more of its indignation on the actions of NATO and Israel than on your chosen comparisons?

[Gatecrasher]

Well said jack!!

Football supporters go to the football to watch football believe it or not.

If it were Hibs fans asked I'd hope we would be smart enough to stay clear of this

[hibsbollah]

Sudan, Baa'thist Iraq, Iran, the Taliban. Just to be going on with.

Oh dear. Baathist Iraq isn't Islamist, by definition, its just the opposite. The Taliban? nasty human rights abuses within Afghanistan but have never been active militarily overseas on any kind of scale. Iran? i'd be interested to see your sources, and from what period. Sudan? you may have more a case there, although I doubt they come close to USA's record of numbers of civilian dead.

And...we're not their allies.

[Barney McGrew]

I've moved this thread to this forum, where it's probably now more relevant

[Betty Boop]

I've moved this thread to this forum, where it's probably now more relevantWhich is where it started! :confused:

[Betty Boop]

politics and religion all rolled together in a hibs football forum, well done the intial poster, ill be staying clear of this thread now that ive finally opened it..

:bye:

The thread was started on this forum The Holy Ground, which states that the content is for politics and current affairs.

[khib70]

And may I be the first to congratulate the STUC on the stunning success of their protest

:faf::faf::faf:

[JackRegan]

And may I be the first to congratulate the STUC on the stunning success of their protest

:faf::faf::faf:

It was the preverbial damp squib. Most fans blanked the 20 or so punters handing the wee flags out, some even told them where tio stick their flags, while others took them out of poltiness and binned them later.

I counted 5 Palestinian Flags in the ground and apparantly the Happoel fans never gave a monkeys and had a good time getting bevvied in Glasgow.

I heard Ewan Cameron still saw fit to dedicate his entire show to it all though.

[Golden Bear]

It was the preverbial damp squib. Most fans blanked the 20 or so punters handing the wee flags out, some even told them where tio stick their flags, while others took them out of poltiness and binned them later.

I counted 5 Palestinian Flags in the ground and apparantly the Happoel fans never gave a monkeys and had a good time getting bevvied in Glasgow.

I heard Ewan Cameron still saw fit to dedicate his entire show to it all though.

Delighted to hear that.

[McIntosh]

If there was one flag thats a success, the objective was to bring this cause to public attention and it has. Critics talking about it is evidence of this. The real irony is that their comments keeps in it public consciousness which is really quite amusing if it wasn't that serious.

[Dinkydoo]

Jeeeesssssuuuuussssss Christ.

As is OF fans need even more encouragement to bring politics and religion into football.

FFS :rolleyes:

[RyeSloan]

If there was one flag thats a success, the objective was to bring this cause to public attention and it has. Critics talking about it is evidence of this. The real irony is that their comments keeps in it public consciousness which is really quite amusing if it wasn't that serious.

Ah the classic win win huh!

Who cars the protest was blanked (even Celtic fans are not daft enough to fall for a stunt like this) as long as the issue gets attention you still win.

Well not really because blatant 'rent a mob' and blanket statements regarding a complex and emotive conflict only alienate people from the very arguement that the STUC was trying to put across.

I'm not even go back to the question of why the hell the STUC is wasting their time, energy and money trying to pull off such stunts for as much as I would love to I ain't got the time for another 7 pages of discussion with Liverpool Hibs :wink: :greengrin

[JackRegan]

Jeeeesssssuuuuussssss Christ.

As is OF fans need even more encouragement to bring politics and religion into football.

FFS :rolleyes:

I think the response of Celtic fans last night showed quite the opposite.

---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------


If there was one flag thats a success, the objective was to bring this cause to public attention and it has. Critics talking about it is evidence of this. The real irony is that their comments keeps in it public consciousness which is really quite amusing if it wasn't that serious.

Hardly, the same mob take one to nearly every game and have done for about 9 years.

[McIntosh]

Ah the classic win win huh!

Who cars the protest was blanked (even Celtic fans are not daft enough to fall for a stunt like this) as long as the issue gets attention you still win.

Well not really because blatant 'rent a mob' and blanket statements regarding a complex and emotive conflict only alienate people from the very arguement that the STUC was trying to put across.

I'm not even go back to the question of why the hell the STUC is wasting their time, energy and money trying to pull off such stunts for as much as I would love to I ain't got the time for another 7 pages of discussion with Liverpool Hibs :wink: :greengrin

You do like your generalisations I am just waiting to hear you talk about the 'silent majority'! I see you are guily of a few typos also or are they subliminal slips :wink:

[McIntosh]

the same mob take one to nearly every game and have done for about 9 years.

Well thats even better, I was reading a journal this morning and I actually thought of you during it. It was discussing the 'troubles' and the slogan "British rights for British people" (I believe an SDLP slogan) and I wondered if you had subscribed to it and if you did is the slogan "Human rights for human being" worthy of your support.

[AndyM_1875]

I think the response of Celtic fans last night showed quite the opposite.[COLOR="Silver"]

Hardly, the same mob take one to nearly every game and have done for about 9 years.

Indeed Jack, last night a couple of myths were well and truly demolished.

The flag protest was basically a disaster for the STUC and the Celtic fans quite rightly listened to their club and embarassing as Ewan Camerons show was the Green Brigade got it tight. In fact I got my kill at 2 Celtic fans phoning in who announced they were actually serving in the UK Military. :faf:

The Green Brigade must have gone into apoplexy at the thought of fellow Celts under 'the Butchers Apron' as well as the flag protest dying a death..:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

You do like your generalisations I am just waiting to hear you talk about the 'silent majority'! I see you are guily of a few typos also or are they subliminal slips :wink:

And of course your post had no generalisation at all!!! <sarcastic>

Not quite sure what you are getting at by the silent majority comment but if you are refering to the Celtic fans response last night it was far from a silent majority...it was a clear and almost total rejection of the proposed 'protest' and the means in which it had been brought about.

You seem to consider this some sort of victory for the 'cause', the more rational would consider it anything but.

Oh and finally my typo's are no where near as quacking as yours. :greengrin

[McIntosh]

And of course your post had no generalisation at all!!! <sarcastic>

Not quite sure what you are getting at by the silent majority comment but if you are refering to the Celtic fans response last night it was far from a silent majority...it was a clear and almost total rejection of the proposed 'protest' and the means in which it had been brought about.

You seem to consider this some sort of victory for the 'cause', the more rational would consider it anything but.

Oh and finally my typo's are no where near as quacking as yours. :greengrin

Is that you admitting your not as educated as you think you are. In relation to yout typos they must drive you mad!:wink:

[RyeSloan]

Is that you admitting your not as educated as you think you are. In relation to yout typos they must drive you mad!:wink:


Oh a wee personal dig now....nice. :bye:

[Twa Cairpets]

And of course your post had no generalisation at all!!! <sarcastic>

Not quite sure what you are getting at by the silent majority comment but if you are refering to the Celtic fans response last night it was far from a silent majority...it was a clear and almost total rejection of the proposed 'protest' and the means in which it had been brought about.

You seem to consider this some sort of victory for the 'cause', the more rational would consider it anything but.

Oh and finally my typo's are no where near as quacking as yours. :greengrin

No, you see, the silent majority is like a homeopathic protest, the less evidence of any actual activity, the stronger the resultant effect. If they'd all been waving the wee flags it wouldnt have any benefit, dont you see? :wink: