After match incidents (fire on Aberdeen train; London Road)

[Hibbyradge]

Expect the arrest of someone called I.P.Address in connection with the Holocaust.

Tracey, Dick.

It's the sheep I worry (about).

[--------]

It's the sheep I worry (about).


So you're an Under(Collie)Dog? :cool2:

[H18sry]

It's the sheep I worry (about).

why was medium rare not to your liking sir :duck:

[RIP]

So - have I got this right?


14,000 fans at the game
Small group of Aberdeen casuals put back on the train at Waverley
Bunch of bairns claiming to be the new baby crew
Fancy dress cossie on fire on a train - burns
Aberdeen fans dressed as sheep and Micheal Jackson


Doesn't sound too Baaad?

[--------]

So - have I got this right?


14,000 fans at the game
Small group of Aberdeen casuals put back on the train at Waverley
Bunch of bairns claiming to be the new baby crew
Fancy dress cossie on fire on a train - burns
Aberdeen fans dressed as sheep and Micheal Jackson

Doesn't sound too Baaad?


Unless you're the guy with the broken jaw, or the roast leg of lamb, no.

But I don't think either the guy who was jumped on London Road or the bloke recovering in the Burns Unit would see it that way. :wink:

[BravestHibs]

Well both of us have watched Hibs for the same length of time! To clarify, I do not believe it is 'rife' and have not intimated this but I do believe that we have a problem which if left unattended will be demaging to the club and Scottish football.

To answer your question directly - support and assist the police at every opportunity. Give no support to these individuals, ostracice them and condemn them is the least we can do - zero tolerence.

"Officer, Officer! I saw a man driving past on his phone! I'm pretty sure he wasn't wearing a seatbelt as well. I've got his number plate for you. How do I know he's guilty? Well, he was wearing a Hibs scarf."

[joe breezy]

"Officer, Officer! I saw a man driving past on his phone! I'm pretty sure he wasn't wearing a seatbelt as well. I've got his number plate for you. How do I know he's guilty? Well, he was wearing a Hibs scarf."

I've got a library book that's 3 days overdue

There, I've said it. The Flying Squad will be winging it down to East London from Gayfield in seconds

[BravestHibs]

I've got a library book that's 3 days overdue

There, I've said it. The Flying Squad will be winging it down to East London from Gayfield in seconds

Once, I couldn't find a toilet so I urinated in a doorway. This was about 10 years ago, I've been living with the guilt ever since. I'm sorry for ruining so many lives. I'll be in the Elm Bar waiting for McIntosh's lapdog to bite me on the c*ck.

[Hibbyradge]

I've got a library book that's 3 days overdue

There, I've said it. The Flying Squad will be winging it down to East London from Gayfield in seconds


Once, I couldn't find a toilet so I urinated in a doorway. This was about 10 years ago, I've been living with the guilt ever since. I'm sorry for ruining so many lives. I'll be in the Elm Bar waiting for McIntosh's lapdog to bite me on the c*ck.


"Officer, Officer! I saw a man driving past on his phone! I'm pretty sure he wasn't wearing a seatbelt as well. I've got his number plate for you. How do I know he's guilty? Well, he was wearing a Hibs scarf."

He's talking about football violence.

[RIP]

The guy with the broken jaw isn't laughing and the bloke in the sheep costume now has a roast leg of lamb.

Am I the only one on here who finds that sort of humour brilliant? :faf:

[BravestHibs]

He's talking about football violence.

Oh right, sorry. I thought he was talking about the holocaust. I was also taking the opportunity to come clean of all my previous misdemeanours so as to pay my dues to those of L&Bs finest who sit at home in their pants monitoring this board all day.

[McIntosh]

You just don't get it do you. You have sat in judgement on the name of Hibernian football club without knowing the full facts of the story.

You have already stated that you don't know 100% that a hibs fan was involved. Their is also a linked thread stating that it may have been a firework accident and you seem to dismissed this out of hand.

The young guy was seriously burned, that's a fact. Until the FULL story comes out with the full weight of the law behind it then I don't think that you or anyone else should have judged our club.

The casuals on the other hand are a different matter. They are a stain on the good name of Hibernian and the sooner they're gone the better.

As for the young ones like the one in my Avatar. They should be able to go to games safe in the knowledge that they are in for a pleasurable, entertaining, and trouble free day.

My colours have for 47 years been green and white, and having worn them with pride in many places around the world, without having been in any trouble whatsoever, I find your comment in bold to be patronising in the extreme.

1. I've not sat in judgement in the name of the club- full stop.
2. Your second staement is highly disengenuous - no one is 100% anything in relation to abstracts.
3. Just for the record the comment in bold was not directed at you.

[McIntosh]

Once, I couldn't find a toilet so I urinated in a doorway. This was about 10 years ago, I've been living with the guilt ever since. I'm sorry for ruining so many lives. I'll be in the Elm Bar waiting for McIntosh's lapdog to bite me on the c*ck.

The real surprise would be that you've got one:wink:

[greenlex]

The real surprise would be that you've got one:wink:
A concience or or cock?:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Oh right, sorry. I thought he was talking about the holocaust. I was also taking the opportunity to come clean of all my previous misdemeanours so as to pay my dues to those of L&Bs finest who sit at home in their pants monitoring this board all day.

Is it really necessary to mock someone because they have a different opinion to you?

Why not put up a decent counter argument instead of descending into puerile sarcasm?

[McIntosh]

The only thing sadder than 14 year old schoolchildren living with their mothers and pretending to be hooligans, is 40 year old security guards living with their mothers pretending to be police detectives.

A fair point lost in the smokscreen of abuse and denigration, but one fact remains that violence at football is becoming prevalent and unless the 'adults' give a clear message that it is unacceptable it will become worse.

As to what I do for a living it is actually there to see, I would have thought that the publications may have given it away. As for being a detective the closest I ever got to that was when the journalist Vicky Allan described me in The Sunday Herald as "the real life Sherlock Holmes" which my wife thought was very funny.

[PaulSmith]

A fair point lost in the smokscreen of abuse and denigration, but one fact remains that violence at football is becoming prevalent and unless the 'adults' give a clear message that it is unacceptable it will become worse.

As to what I do for a living it is actually there to see, I would have thought that the publications may have given it away. As for being a detective the closest I ever got to that was when the journalist Vicky Allan described me in The Sunday Herald as "the real life Sherlock Holmes" which my wife thought was very funny.

Prove it.
Football has never been as safe to attend now that at any other time in the past IMO, the only difference now is that every minute piece of violence is written about on message boards, internet or newspaper.

[Toaods]

Is it really necessary to mock someone because they have a different opinion to you?

:kettle:

[Hibbyradge]

:kettle:

When have I done that?

[McIntosh]

Prove it.
Football has never been as safe to attend now that at any other time in the past IMO, the only difference now is that every minute piece of violence is written about on message boards, internet or newspaper.


If you wish emperical data - L&B data would support that there has been an increase in football disorder in 2007 and 2008.

You do have a point in relation to your second point but the difficulty there is its underlying nature. Historically, it was violence intrisically linked to the social and economic - Donald McRaild's seminal work The great Famine and Beyond:Irish migrants in Britain in the Nineteenth and Twentieth century outlines this. However, the violence of the last twenty-five years is a new factor apparently divorced from the above and in that period football has been transformed from a working-class pastime to a middle class business, hence a 'new' and more reactive morality in relation to violence.

[sleeping giant]

Is it really necessary to mock someone because they have a different opinion to you?

Why not put up a decent counter argument instead of descending into puerile sarcasm?

:kettle:

:faf:

[PeeKay]

If you wish emperical data - L&B data would support that there has been an increase in football disorder in 2007 and 2008.

You do have a point in relation to your second point but the difficulty there is its underlying nature. Historically, it was violence intrisically linked to the social and economic - Donald McRaild's seminal work The great Famine and Beyond:Irish migrants in Britain in the Nineteenth and Twentieth century outlines this. However, the violence of the last twenty-five years is a new factor apparently divorced from the above.

Can you provide a published reference to that empIrical data?

[Hibbyradge]

:kettle:

:faf:

My counter arguments may not always be "decent" in your eyes, but I do try to make them.

Am I overly sarcastic?

[McIntosh]

Can you provide a published reference to that empIrical data?


If you wish to source any police data in L&B go to:

http://www.lbp.police.uk/freedom-of-information/pl_areport.asp

particular, data can be accessed by a freedom of information request, if you wish material for any academic or personal work don't hesitate to pm me.

[sleeping giant]

My counter arguments may not always be "decent" in your eyes, but I do try to make them.

Am I overly sarcastic?

No , never !!:greengrin

[Tinyclothes]

Am I the only one on here who find that sort of humour distasteful?:grr:

Hopefully

[Leith Green]

Hopefully




Hahaha ... :faf:

[Toaods]

Am I overly sarcastic?


I'd hate to think you any better than the rest of us at it...:greengrin

[joe breezy]

If you wish emperical data - L&B data would support that there has been an increase in football disorder in 2007 and 2008.

You do have a point in relation to your second point but the difficulty there is its underlying nature. Historically, it was violence intrisically linked to the social and economic - Donald McRaild's seminal work The great Famine and Beyond:Irish migrants in Britain in the Nineteenth and Twentieth century outlines this. However, the violence of the last twenty-five years is a new factor apparently divorced from the above and in that period football has been transformed from a working-class pastime to a middle class business, hence a 'new' and more reactive morality in relation to violence.

I'm busy at work so can't debate in depth but how can we honestly say that violence at a match in the 1980s is definitely different to violence at a match in the 1880s in terms of the motivations of those involved?

I understand that poverty may have been partly a driving force in the past but the way its repeated itself over the years perhaps shows there is something intrinsic about young men banding together and running around.

The trouble in the 80s was borne from the preceding violence of the 70s with a new style and subculture at a time when there were many street styles.

Nowadays I think some of the media is probably partly responsible for these incidents of youngsters copying what they see on the Real Football Factories etc. Not that these programmes shouldn't be on but the glut of films, books etc are bound to have some influence (and I used to deny the role of the media on behaviour but have changed my mind recently)

There have been quite a few periods when football disorder has increased, the end of the 90s saw an increase too, when the Es wore off and coke use increased. I'm pretty sure it will never come back as it did.

A few isolated incidents and that is it. There's CCTV everywhere, modern stadia and better policing.

[brog]

This is probably a very silly question(s) I know but as a London based Hibby I don't have access to all local media.
This is a 7 page thread & having waded through some right old toot I'm still no wiser as to what happened nearly 2 days after the event.
Can anyone definitively answer whether;
1. The fire incident was deliberate, even as a prank, or was an accident?
2. Was it a Hibs fan who either deliberately, ( not expecting the consequences I'm sure ) or accidentally set the guy alight?
Like everyone I think any violence is abhorrent but let's try & keep a sense of perspective. These are social problems not football problems.

[BravestHibs]

Originally Posted by Meeko http://www.hibs.net/message/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=2226508#post2226508)
The incident was nothing to do with me or my club so I don't have any duty to condemn this type of behaviour. I wish the guy a speedy recovery but the point is it is nothing to do with Hibs.


Meeko said the above.



Thats what the Germans said in 1933 - I repeat we have as human beings have a duty to condemn this kind of behaviour.

I hope the 'club' condemn these actions, as I am sure they will, then 'followers' like your goodself will find voice.

Then you posted the emboldened section. I struggle to see how that isn't using a comparison to the Holocaust or Nuremburg or whatever you want to call it in order to then liken whoever argues against you to the Nazis, it's quite a clumsy way of backing your argument at best and at worst points to someone who instead of using the facts in a discussion, screams at whoever disagrees with him in big red capital letters using examples like the holocaust and paedophilia as benchmarks for something so unrelated that I actually wondered if you might have some kind of autism.

Also, your George W Bush 'You're either with us or against us' logic doesn't really leave alot of room for debate now does it? Anyone who tries to debate the huge amount of grey within this issue, such as the fact that we don't actually know what happened in either incident, is immediately beaten down with your neo-con rhetoric.

Apologies if I offended you so much that you were forced to make a joke about my cock earlier but you are what I would call a 'shreeking scaremonger' who is apparently trying to create a problem for Hibs that isn't there. You say you're a lecturer, what do you lecture in? The reason I asked is because you mentioned it another post as though it somehow qualified you to pass judgement on something you clearly have no extra information about than any of the rest of us.

[PaulSmith]

If you wish emperical data - L&B data would support that there has been an increase in football disorder in 2007 and 2008.

You do have a point in relation to your second point but the difficulty there is its underlying nature. Historically, it was violence intrisically linked to the social and economic - Donald McRaild's seminal work The great Famine and Beyond:Irish migrants in Britain in the Nineteenth and Twentieth century outlines this. However, the violence of the last twenty-five years is a new factor apparently divorced from the above and in that period football has been transformed from a working-class pastime to a middle class business, hence a 'new' and more reactive morality in relation to violence.

Compared to when and what numbers are we talking about here. I've no intention of dowloading a 2.5mb file full of mostly police PR as if they were some corporate business

[Tollhouse Hibee]

I said I saw fighting I never ever said I saw the boy that was sparko being hit so if you are going to call me a liar get your ****ing facts straight. As for the boy in the station imho of course he did not look like a hooligan to me and if you were in the area you would see for yourself that there was a number of so called Hibs fans looking for trouble. maybe you were there and are one of them:wink:

I think it was me that you were talking to at the station, and indeed i did say the guy was pished and that is why he was lying on the deck.

i would say tho that i felt a bit threatened at top of London road and there was definitely an air of fighting.

[RIP]

Am I the only one on here who finds that sort of humour brilliant? :faf:


Hopefully

Irony got? Not!:greengrin

[BravestHibs]

Irony got? Not!:greengrin

Am I the only one who finds 'not' jokes about as funny as getting your welt caught in a car door?

[Tinyclothes]

Am I the only one who finds 'not' jokes about as funny as getting your welt caught in a car door?

I thought they were amazing whenI was at school in the 90's.

[haggisbaws]

I nearly wet myself laughing when i read this, talk about sheep fans flaming about the result :devil::faf:
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2709499/Sheep-fan-is-set-alight-on-train.html

:notworthy:

[RoYO!]

anyone gonna bite? didnt think so........

[Kawacabbage10]

I nearly wet myself laughing when i read this, talk about sheep fans flaming about the result :devil::faf:
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2709499/Sheep-fan-is-set-alight-on-train.html

:notworthy:

I'd get your Flack jacket on.....

[Hainan Hibs]

:greengrin




The PC brigade will be along soon:yawn:







:devil:

[Malthibby]

PC brigade here, apparently.
It isn't funny.
GG

[ScottB]

It would be funny if he wasn't in what the BBC termed 'a severe condition'

So some guy who for a bit of banter dressed up as a sheep for the game was set on fire by some moron on the train and is now in hospital... Far from my usual nature to be the 'PC' brigade but I am on this one.

[GodisaHibee]

Nothing PC to be said.

There is a boy seriously injured lying in hospital.

I don't see any reason to try and have a laugh at it. If that's 'PC' so be it.

I just hope it wasn't a Hibby that did it.

And a speedy recovery to the lad in question, HE at least was trying to have a laugh.

This OP just isn't funny.

[flash]

I nearly wet myself laughing when i read this, talk about sheep fans flaming about the result :devil::faf:
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2709499/Sheep-fan-is-set-alight-on-train.html

:notworthy:

Almost as funny as those folk who got killed by the rocks in Tenerife.:rolleyes:

[HibbyAndy]

:singing: Your not famous anymore :singing:

[The_Todd]

The PC brigade will be along soon:yawn:



The only thing worth :yawn:-ing at is the :yawn:-fest which is calling people who disagree with you a member of the "PC Brigade". Total :yawn:.

There's nothing even remotely funny about someone lying in a hospital bed with serious burns.

[lEXO]

Football violence has never been away.It,s just not been in the papers for what ever reason.As for the stuff on London Road, i did,nt see it but it does,nt surprise me.That,s up to the cops to sort out, and it,s not Hibs fault what alleged supporters get up to after the match.The incident on the train is another matter altogether,it,s been rumours and gossip.Until i find out what the real story is i,m not going to make any judgements.
Some of the posts on this have been ridiculous, some just boorish and patronising.Lectured by Macintosh who,s good points have been lost amongst his THATS WHAT THE GERMANS SAID kind of statements.Hibs fans have condemned it, but those that argue that we are not responsible for their behaviour have been slated for not backing his view.For a man of obvious intelligence(lecturer,newspaper etc) i find some of his posts on this bizarre.:confused:

[PaulSmith]

If you wish to source any police data in L&B go to:

http://www.lbp.police.uk/freedom-of-information/pl_areport.asp

particular, data can be accessed by a freedom of information request, if you wish material for any academic or personal work don't hesitate to pm me.

The only bit I can find about football hooliganism is this : http://www.lbp.police.uk/publications/factsheetpack/10.htm and I quote it:

"Football hooliganism is currently passing through a ‘dormant’ period"

[joe breezy]

The only bit I can find about football hooliganism is this : http://www.lbp.police.uk/publications/factsheetpack/10.htm and I quote it:

"Football hooliganism is currently passing through a ‘dormant’ period"

Another excerpt

"The ‘casuals’ are very much fuelled by moral panic."

I think we may have some of that here....

[PeeKay]

If you wish to source any police data in L&B go to:

http://www.lbp.police.uk/freedom-of-information/pl_areport.asp

particular, data can be accessed by a freedom of information request, if you wish material for any academic or personal work don't hesitate to pm me.

Social scientists? What're they like, eh?

In the branch of academia that I follow I would not require my audience to have to lodge an FIO request to substantiate the factual accuracy of a statement I was prepared to make in a public forum. You made the statement, I queried it, now you should substantiate it. In the terminology of the Gregg's threads, "Sauce?"

But back to the point. 48 hours later and the perpetrator was to appear in court this afternoon, and still no hard evidence that this tragic event represented football-related violence or that a Hibby was involved.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

Anyone know what the man who appeared at Kirkaldy Sheriff Court today was charged with then?

[Hainan Hibs]

The only thing worth :yawn:-ing at is the :yawn:-fest which is calling people who disagree with you a member of the "PC Brigade". Total :yawn:.

There's nothing even remotely funny about someone lying in a hospital bed with serious burns.

You and a few others failed to see the :devil: at the end of my post. I didn't agree with the post either but I'm not going to go all high and mighty, and I do just love it though when posters completely foam at the mouth at the sight of the words "pc brigade":greengrin

On a serious note I do hope the guy in hospital recovers well, horrible thing to go through I'd imagine.

[Removed]

Anyone know what the man who appeared at Kirkaldy Sheriff Court today was charged with then?

Culpable and reckless conduct

[Nakedmanoncrack]

Culpable and reckless conduct

Cheers mate, found the report now, Culpable and reckless conduct and and given bail. Hardly the attempted murder charges that those on this thread, foaming at the mouth without knowing any of the facts surely anticipated?


Man in court after train incident

A 23-year-old man has appeared in court in Kirkcaldy after a train was stopped on Saturday evening when a football fan was seen in flames in a carriage. Peter Wallace, from St Andrews, appeared at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court on charges of culpable and reckless conduct.
He made no plea or declaration and was granted bail.
The Aberdeen fan who was dressed as a sheep was taken to hospital with serious burns to his arms and legs.
Aberdeen fans said the man ran ablaze through the carriage as others threw beer on him to douse the flames.
The Edinburgh to Aberdeen service was stopped at Kirkcaldy at about 1900 GMT on Saturday to allow him to be treated.
The train was carrying Aberdeen football supporters back home after their side's match against Hibs in Edinburgh.
It is understood a number of the fans at the match and on the train were dressed as sheep.
The train was the 1808 GMT service from Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8339095.stm

[Juice-Terry]

I know the 'perpetrator' and he IS a Hibs supporter. My mate who was travelling with him back to St Andrews was right next to the incident (literally in the very next seat), and he told me it was just a prank gone horribly wrong. There was no sinister motive behind it all...just a very, very unfortunate incident. Hope the Aberdeen boy makes a full recovery.

'Mon the Cabbage!

[basehibby]

I know the 'perpetrator' and he IS a Hibs supporter. My mate who was travelling with him back to St Andrews was right next to the incident (literally in the very next seat), and he told me it was just a prank gone horribly wrong. There was no sinister motive behind it all...just a very, very unfortunate incident. Hope the Aberdeen boy makes a full recovery.

'Mon the Cabbage!

I was one of the posters foaming at the mouth when this first broke and I'm very pleased to hold my hands up and be wrong.

Given past actions by casual groups such as chucking molotov cocktails and stuff I sadly found it all too easy to believe that this was a deliberate act - I'm glad to hear it was an accident although that won't ultimately make much difference to the poor guy sitting in hospital getting his burns treated - here's wishing him a speedy and full recovery.
Those that think this is a laughing matter need to get a life IMO

[Allant1981]

I nearly wet myself laughing when i read this, talk about sheep fans flaming about the result :devil::faf:
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2709499/Sheep-fan-is-set-alight-on-train.html

:notworthy:


Oh aye its very funny. have you ever seen someone burning in front of you, happened to me a few years ago when i worked in St Johns and its not a very pleasant experience. If you think its funny you clearly have problems

[IWasThere2016]

Accused named as Peter Wallace (23), of St Andrews (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2009/11/03/newsstory14048818t0.asp)

[Joe Baker II]

To answer your question directly - support and assist the police at every opportunity. Give no support to these individuals, ostracice them and condemn them is the least we can do - zero tolerence.

McIntosh some of your points are valid but I am afraid you are wrong here. By all means ostracise and condemn but there are far too many examples of appalling police behaviour and practices toward football supporters (and more seriously refusing to admit they were wrong afterwards) and until the behaviour of the police changes they should not be cooperated with in anyway whatsoever. Though I accept that LB Police although not perfect, are not one of the worst offenders in this regard.

[linlithgowhibbie]

Joe,
So your pal gets banjoed by another bloke. The polis ask you if you saw who did it and you say "Yes but even tho its my mate lying there with a sore face I am not going to cooperate with you, I would rather he gets away with it that assist you with your enquiries"
Sure your mate would love you for that, and the hoolie would go on and bash someone else.
I hope you are never a potential wit:confused:ness if I ever have the misfortune to get involved in something like the above scenario.

Think again?

[BravestHibs]

Oh aye its very funny. have you ever seen someone burning in front of you, happened to me a few years ago when i worked in St Johns and its not a very pleasant experience. If you think its funny you clearly have problems

I was quite badly burned as a child. Luckily no visible lasting scars due to the excellent work of the specialist unit in London I attended for treatment. However what I would say is that I do joke about it. Does being the victim of a burn give me the right to laugh at it? And if so, should someone who hasn't suffered this type of injury have any right to criticise someone they don't know for trying to make light of it? It doesn't affect you, the person who takes offence, in any way. It has affected me and I should surely have the right to deal with it the way I see fit without someone else with a righteous frown on their face telling someone on a message board that they are some kind of animal for making a joke?

[The_Todd]

I was quite badly burned as a child. Luckily no visible lasting scars due to the excellent work of the specialist unit in London I attended for treatment. However what I would say is that I do joke about it. Does being the victim of a burn give me the right to laugh at it? And if so, should someone who hasn't suffered this type of injury have any right to criticise someone they don't know for trying to make light of it? It doesn't affect you, the person who takes offence, in any way. It has affected me and I should surely have the right to deal with it the way I see fit without someone else with a righteous frown on their face telling someone on a message board that they are some kind of animal for making a joke?

Surely there's a difference between making light of a serious event in the past, and making light of an equally serious event in the present and is still ongoing?

[Killiehibbie]

Joe,
So your pal gets banjoed by another bloke. The polis ask you if you saw who did it and you say "Yes but even tho its my mate lying there with a sore face I am not going to cooperate with you, I would rather he gets away with it that assist you with your enquiries"
Sure your mate would love you for that, and the hoolie would go on and bash someone else.
I hope you are never a potential wit:confused:ness if I ever have the misfortune to get involved in something like the above scenario.

Think again?

I'd be hoping if you were my mate you'd have the perpetrator of this assaults nose splattered all over his face then buy me a pint to help me get over this traumatic event.

[Hermit Crab]

There was also a stabbing on a train on sat night at linlithgow but nothing to say it was football related. It happened at about 9pm.

[McIntosh]

Meeko said the above.

Then you posted the emboldened section. I struggle to see how that isn't using a comparison to the Holocaust or Nuremburg or whatever you want to call it in order to then liken whoever argues against you to the Nazis, it's quite a clumsy way of backing your argument at best and at worst points to someone who instead of using the facts in a discussion, screams at whoever disagrees with him in big red capital letters using examples like the holocaust and paedophilia as benchmarks for something so unrelated that I actually wondered if you might have some kind of autism.

Also, your George W Bush 'You're either with us or against us' logic doesn't really leave alot of room for debate now does it? Anyone who tries to debate the huge amount of grey within this issue, such as the fact that we don't actually know what happened in either incident, is immediately beaten down with your neo-con rhetoric.

Apologies if I offended you so much that you were forced to make a joke about my cock earlier but you are what I would call a 'shreeking scaremonger' who is apparently trying to create a problem for Hibs that isn't there. You say you're a lecturer, what do you lecture in? The reason I asked is because you mentioned it another post as though it somehow qualified you to pass judgement on something you clearly have no extra information about than any of the rest of us.

Sadly you missed the point a few times the argument in relation to the holocaust was concerning what happens when good people do nothing. I made no joke about your 'cock'. Yes, I also stated I was a lecturer, if you wish to know I am actually a clinical psychologist to training. Morality is generic facts are specific - reflecting on wghat you say would help you and your arguments.

[McIntosh]

Football violence has never been away.It,s just not been in the papers for what ever reason.As for the stuff on London Road, i did,nt see it but it does,nt surprise me.That,s up to the cops to sort out, and it,s not Hibs fault what alleged supporters get up to after the match.The incident on the train is another matter altogether,it,s been rumours and gossip.Until i find out what the real story is i,m not going to make any judgements.
Some of the posts on this have been ridiculous, some just boorish and patronising.Lectured by Macintosh who,s good points have been lost amongst his THATS WHAT THE GERMANS SAID kind of statements.Hibs fans have condemned it, but those that argue that we are not responsible for their behaviour have been slated for not backing his view.For a man of obvious intelligence(lecturer,newspaper etc) i find some of his posts on this bizarre.:confused:

My word what to say about your comments, simply this - the concept of collective responsibility is as follows:

If you were attacked in the street do I have an obligation to help you or do I walk bye, if you were being stabbed to death do I ignore it - well I don't and many othere here would help you that what makes some of us human beings, compassion, kindness and human decency.

Nothing bizarre there, were not PC or followers of a base pack instinct we are human beings.

[BravestHibs]

Sadly you missed the point a few times the argument in relation to the holocaust was concerning what happens when good people do nothing. I made no joke about your 'cock'. Yes, I also stated I was a lecturer, if you wish to know I am actually a clinical psychologist to training. Morality is generic facts are specific - reflecting on wghat you say would help you and your arguments.

Clinical Psychologist eh. Very good. I had you down as a paid police informant judging by some of your earlier posts. Glad we got that cleared up.

You did make a joke about my cock. Please don't make me relive the whole sordid episode, or if I have to, can I do it from behind a screen via videolink?

Yes yes, I understand about 'when good people do nothing' I learnt about the war in school also. If you want to point blank deny that you compared some young men giving another young man a sore face to the holocaust, or the rise of the Nazi party or whatever it's very difficult to carry on having a conversation about it.

[Amsterdam]

My word what to say about your comments, simply this - the concept of collective responsibility is as follows:

If you were attacked in the street do I have an obligation to help you or do I walk bye, if you were being stabbed to death do I ignore it - well I don't and many othere here would help you that what makes some of us human beings, compassion, kindness and human decency.

Nothing bizarre there, were not PC or followers of a base pack instinct we are human beings.

Very interesting. So if it were you were being stabbed to death in the street & the CCS came to your aid, would you accept gratefully or refuse it & die in a pool of your own blood, excrement, piss & smug selfrightousness?

[sahib]

Clinical Psychologist eh. Very good. I had you down as a paid police informant judging by some of your earlier posts. Glad we got that cleared up.

You did make a joke about my cock. Please don't make me relive the whole sordid episode, or if I have to, can I do it from behind a screen via videolink?

Yes yes, I understand about 'when good people do nothing' I learnt about the war in school also. If you want to point blank deny that you compared some young men giving another young man a sore face to the holocaust, or the rise of the Nazi party or whatever and then point blank deny that you did it's very difficult to carry on having a conversation about it.

I would have thought only a thug or criminal, would have any problem with paid police informants. Surely law abiding citizens applaud their existence.

[BravestHibs]

I would have thought only a thug or criminal, would have any problem with paid police informants. Surely law abiding citizens applaud their existence.

Yeah and they probably applaud the kid at school who always had his hand up to grass on the kid next to him for not doing his homework, and the guy who takes a photo of you and your car registration when you forgot to put your seatbelt on. And while your at it why not stop and shake hands with all the speed cameras and applaude the good job they're doing in keeping us all safe.

[Killiehibbie]

I would have thought only a thug or criminal, would have any problem with paid police informants. Surely law abiding citizens applaud their existence.

Paid police informants are likely to be informing on people in the same line of business as themselves. Some of the biggest grasses have been some of the biggest criminals.

[McIntosh]

Very interesting. So if it were you were being stabbed to death in the street & the CCS came to your aid, would you accept gratefully or refuse it & die in a pool of your own blood, excrement, piss & smug selfrightousness?

Well no, I would hope your nice dog would tear out their throat:wink:

[Dashing Bob S]

Paid police informants are likely to be informing on people in the same line of business as themselves. Some of the biggest grasses have been some of the biggest criminals.

Yes, and are usually given some form of immunity to carry on their own activities. It's generally the case that 'grass status' effectively makes such criminals untouchable. What usually happens is that they sacrifice the odd pawn to make the police records look better while they carry on doing what they do best.

[McIntosh]

You did make a joke about my cock. Please don't make me relive the whole sordid episode, or if I have to, can I do it from behind a screen via videolink?

Yes yes, I understand about 'when good people do nothing' I learnt about the war in school also. If you want to point blank deny that you compared some young men giving another young man a sore face to the holocaust, or the rise of the Nazi party or whatever it's very difficult to carry on having a conversation about it.

My word you really are quite sensitive - you are a bit like the dog in my street very good at giving it, no good at taking it.

I said what I said, I can't do the interpreting for you, particularly when you choice to ignore the issue or the context. Just to remind you it has nothing to do with "young men giving another young man a sore face " but with what happens when people do nothing or choice to ignore "wickedness or evil" with the lame excuse that it has "nothing to do with me".

[McIntosh]

Yes, and are usually given some form of immunity to carry on their own activities. It's generally the case that 'grass status' effectively makes such criminals untouchable. What usually happens is that they sacrifice the odd pawn to make the police records look better while they carry on doing what they do best.

Agreed, I think there is probably a lot more collusion that we are aware. There is a lot of evidence in relation to gang infiltration, it would come as no surprise to find out that the 'casuals' were 'compromised' either directly or indirectly.

[BravestHibs]

My word you really are quite sensitive - you are a bit like the dog in my street very good at giving it, no good at taking it.

I said what I said, I can't do the interpreting for you, particularly when you choice to ignore the issue or the context. Just to remind you it has nothing to do with "young men giving another young man a sore face " but with what happens when people do nothing or choice to ignore "wickedness or evil" with the lame excuse that it has "nothing to do with me".

What have you been 'giving' to that dog exactly?????

I'm the sensitive one? You're the one who likens a guy getting punched in the face to the extermination of 6 million people matey. I'm not the only one who 'interpreted wrongly' as I look down the thread. Could it be that you didn't get your point across very well and instead of accepting that you now feel backed into a corner? That's the way it looks to me.

To address your point, you have absolutely no idea how people would have reacted to the situation had they been faced with it. People who weren't there didn't have anything to do with it, they weren't there. Neither were you. So who exactly are you to decide what people are supposed to feel about an incident that you heard about on a message board? Hm?

And I also assume that with no regard for your own safety you personally would have waded in and covered the poor boy being kicked like a turtles shell? Of course you'll say yes. You are tucked up safely in front of your computer after all.

[Hibsandaroo]

Sounds like a lot of posters regarding the informants here having been watching too much TV. You think with all the scrutiny in the Polis that they can simply ignore crimes? It's quite an open fact that informants enjoy money, holidays and gifts etc from the Police for information.

I know a guy who got lifted after the last derby at tynecastle having been at the game 4 or 5 hours before for a breach of the peace and they still said it was a football crime, the polis apply for football banning orders automatically with any crime with an element of football now. There was nothing football about his behaviour

[lEXO]

My word what to say about your comments, simply this - the concept of collective responsibility is as follows:

If you were attacked in the street do I have an obligation to help you or do I walk bye, if you were being stabbed to death do I ignore it - well I don't and many othere here would help you that what makes some of us human beings, compassion, kindness and human decency.

Nothing bizarre there, were not PC or followers of a base pack instinct we are human beings.
My word, what a reply.I am aware of the concept of collective responsibility.All of the people on here are human beings, not just some.I think that most people react to situations differently, as are peoples opinions.You dont seem to understand that your opinion is just that.As i said in my previous post,some of your valid points have been lost because of some of the comparisons you have used.
As for tackling football hooliganism,there are banning orders in place and they have been for some time.As another poster has stated these are open to abuse by the police,and i would like to see them used on the real troublemakers.I would take any stats by the police with a pinch of salt because like all stats they can tell a story totally different to the reality of things.
So please save the lecturing to what you know, instead of patronising or insulting Hibs fans who dont share your view on this.

[Amsterdam]

Well no, I would hope your nice dog would tear out their throat:wink:

the dog doesnt do requests, its either A or B, there is no plan C
so which one do you choose?

[McIntosh]

What have you been 'giving' to that dog exactly?????

I'm the sensitive one? You're the one who likens a guy getting punched in the face to the extermination of 6 million people matey. I'm not the only one who 'interpreted wrongly' as I look down the thread. Could it be that you didn't get your point across very well and instead of accepting that you now feel backed into a corner? That's the way it looks to me.

To address your point, you have absolutely no idea how people would have reacted to the situation had they been faced with it. People who weren't there didn't have anything to do with it, they weren't there. Neither were you. So who exactly are you to decide what people are supposed to feel about an incident that you heard about on a message board? Hm?

And I also assume that with no regard for your own safety you personally would have waded in and covered the poor boy being kicked like a turtles shell? Of course you'll say yes. You are tucked up safely in front of your computer after all.

Well, sadly you just don't get it. In respect to courage when you've worked under gunfire, survived two bombings, been deported at gunpoint - twice and then had to use your UN passport to get people to safety then you can write these things to me. Until then, you keep tapping away and maybe when you've really lived a bit more you might, just might understand.

[McIntosh]

My word, what a reply.I am aware of the concept of collective responsibility.All of the people on here are human beings, not just some.I think that most people react to situations differently, as are peoples opinions.You dont seem to understand that your opinion is just that.As i said in my previous post,some of your valid points have been lost because of some of the comparisons you have used.
As for tackling football hooliganism,there are banning orders in place and they have been for some time.As another poster has stated these are open to abuse by the police,and i would like to see them used on the real troublemakers.I would take any stats by the police with a pinch of salt because like all stats they can tell a story totally different to the reality of things.
So please save the lecturing to what you know, instead of patronising or insulting Hibs fans who dont share your view on this.

I have never consciously insulted anyone, in fact it is I whom has received many of these. However, in general it is easy for for a person to rejects principles when they have none of their own.

Before you reply in righteous indignation I do not include you in this as your arguments are intelligent, logical and well articulated.

[McIntosh]

the dog doesnt do requests, its either A or B, there is no plan C
so which one do you choose?

I repeat I would get your nice dog do help:wink:

Though I don't think I would need any help, if you read the previous post it will become apparent.

[lapsedhibee]

when you've worked under gunfire, survived two bombings, been deported at gunpoint - twice and then had to use your UN passport to get people to safety then you can write these things to me.
:wink:

[McIntosh]

:wink:

I wish it was, though on a lighter note, the most fightened I have ever been was in Havana, Cuba - the prositutes were the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life!

[BravestHibs]

Well, sadly you just don't get it. In respect to courage when you've worked under gunfire, survived two bombings, been deported at gunpoint - twice and then had to use your UN passport to get people to safety then you can write these things to me. Until then, you keep tapping away and maybe when you've really lived a bit more you might, just might understand.


Haha! Yeah, with the insight you have into the life I've led you're perfectly placed to cast aspersions.

I'm just happy I've set you up to be able to give all these people you don't know and will never meet a rundown of how brave you are. I'm just wondering how many times you've written that spiel down during the course of this thread and then deleted it, muttering to yourself 'not yet big man, not yet'.

[marinello59]

Haha! Yeah, with the insight you have into the life I've led you're perfectly placed to cast aspersions.

I'm just happy I've set you up to be able to give all these people you don't know and will never meet a rundown of how brave you are. I'm just wondering how many times you've written that spiel down during the course of this thread and then deleted it, muttering to yourself 'not yet big man, not yet'.

Please cut out the sniping. There is a decent debate going on here.......this doesn't add to it.

[BravestHibs]

Please cut out the sniping. There is a decent debate going on here.......this doesn't add to it.

Like I've said to you a hundred times before the only time I snipe is in retaliation. Regardless of this fact it is me once again who gets pulled up. Is this what martyrdom feels like................

[marinello59]

Like I've said to you a hundred times before the only time I snipe is in retaliation. Regardless of this fact it is me once again who gets pulled up. Is this what martyrdom feels like................

It's a friendly request. Up to you whether you heed it or not.
Martyrdom.:faf:

[CropleyWasGod]

:
I wish it was, though on a lighter note, the most fightened I have ever been was in Havana, Cuba - the prositutes were the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life!

Clearly looking in the wrong place, then. :wink:

[Hibs07p]

:

Clearly looking in the wrong place, then. :wink:

Maybe his remit was to blow up every can't in Cuba? :dunno:

[McIntosh]

Like I've said to you a hundred times before the only time I snipe is in retaliation. Regardless of this fact it is me once again who gets pulled up. Is this what martyrdom feels like................

No, thats what it is like to be wrong :wink: Back on topic and hopefully making a serious point people's feelings and rights should be respected even yours and mines.

[Amsterdam]

I repeat I would get your nice dog do help:wink:

Though I don't think I would need any help, if you read the previous post it will become apparent.

reading the previous post I take it you would whip out your UN passport & use it as a shield to protect you from the knife blows. A bit like the UN soldiers did at Srebrenica(sp). All it takes for evil to triumph etc etc

[Hibby D]

reading the previous post I take it you would whip out your UN passport & use it as a shield to protect you from the knife blows. A bit like the UN soldiers did at Srebrenica(sp). All it takes for evil to triumph etc etc

It's a shame this thread has turned into a platform for petty point scoring and personal digs.

[McIntosh]

It's a shame this thread has turned into a platform for petty point scoring and personal digs.

Agreed, its a pity. Though there has been at times a lot of good debate.

[NOLA]

can this be deleted please.

[McIntosh]

reading the previous post I take it you would whip out your UN passport & use it as a shield to protect you from the knife blows. A bit like the UN soldiers did at Srebrenica(sp). All it takes for evil to triumph etc etc

No, I would still depend on your dog.

In respect to Srebenica, I will ask the former Head of Section in the EC Delegation to BiH he's a hibby and a hero, its a pity you won't have that on your tombstone.

Though your dog might.

[Amsterdam]

No, I would still depend on your dog.

In respect to Srebenica, I will ask the former Head of Section in the EC Delegation to BiH he's a hibby and a hero, its a pity you won't have that on your tombstone.

Though your dog might.

What are you on about? How could anyone in the UN come out of that a hero.
The UN, of which you claim to be part of, let civilians, who they were protecting, be slaughtered. Defenceless human beings. Oh let me guess, as you are so fond of doing, the whole world got it wrong,there was no massacre. The UN were doing them a favour by allowing them to be ethnicly cleansed.
Dont bother asking your 'pal' at the UN what he is on my behalf, I couldnt give a hoot what his answer is & could guess anyway

As for me & what might be on my 'tombstone',
I come fae Leith ken no Arizona & we call them gravestones.
What gets put on it, well thats none of your beeswax

Id like to see things from your point of view, but I couldnt fit my head up your a rsehole too

BTW you got a ticket for tomorrow?

[Amsterdam]

It's a shame this thread has turned into a platform for petty point scoring and personal digs.

Fail to see how I get singled out on this one, points were raised & I asked for clarification, which if you read my question, is a valid one. The guys now failed to answer the same question 3 times. Just because you agree with him doesnt make him right. I would also like to know where the personal digs are, do you mean the ones about the dog in my avatar being a throat ripper? Or is it that he states Im no hero & that he is.

All Ive stated is facts love, no digs

[FranckSuzy]

Anyway, more importantly, does anyone know how the fan is that suffered the burns?

[sadtom]

Well, sadly you just don't get it. In respect to courage when you've worked under gunfire, survived two bombings, been deported at gunpoint - twice and then had to use your UN passport to get people to safety then you can write these things to me. Until then, you keep tapping away and maybe when you've really lived a bit more you might, just might understand.

That sounds like a busy day!
Being an 18-30 club rep's not all its cracked up to be then?

[Woody1985]

Anyway, more importantly, does anyone know how the fan is that suffered the burns?

I asked this last week and was told, on here, that he is okay now but will be scarred for life.

[McIntosh]

That sounds like a busy day!
Being an 18-30 club rep's not all its cracked up to be then?

Well Sodom, Gomorrah was an interesting resort, near East Belfast :wink:

[McIntosh]

I asked this last week and was told, on here, that he is okay now but will be scarred for life.

Very, very sad indeed.

[FranckSuzy]

I asked this last week and was told, on here, that he is okay now but will be scarred for life.

Thank you, I must have missed the update. Poor guy.