Remembrance Sunday

[HibbyDave]

Good article in one of the papers today from Graham Spiers pointing out that Celtic have declined to make a statement calling for their fans to observe a silence for the armistice. Instead it appears that they prefer a minutes applause...... No doubt to drown out the chorus of claptrap chanted by their Oirish Brigade.

I'm fairly sure the SPL refused to make ruling on this matter recently too.

Some will no doubt make claims that everyone (including the "followers" of Celtic) has the right to their point of view etc etc etc.

Maybe if they thought about it, they would realise that they only enjoy this right due to the fact that the opposing forces were defeated in the war years . Otherwise their ongoing crusade about all things Oirish would have been squashed years ago and their songs/our language would be spoken in German today?

So to anyone thinking otherwise, show some respect in silence and also DEMAND that Celtic make a statement thereby finally taking a stand against the Scottish shame that is sectariamism.

I'm not against a minutes applause to remember someone recently deceased as i think it's a fantastic way to celebrate their life however there was nothing to celebrate about the war except the end of it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Good article in one of the papers today from Graham Spiers pointing out that Celtic have declined to make a statement calling for their fans to observe a silence for the armistice. Instead it appears that they prefer a minutes applause...... No doubt to drown out the chorus of claptrap chanted by their Oirish Brigade.

I'm fairly sure the SPL refused to make ruling on this matter recently too.

Some will no doubt make claims that everyone (including the "followers" of Celtic) has the right to their point of view etc etc etc.

Maybe if they thought about it, they would realise that they only enjoy this right due to the fact that the opposing forces were defeated in the war years . Otherwise their ongoing crusade about all things Oirish would have been squashed years ago and their songs/our language would be spoken in German today?

So to anyone thinking otherwise, show some respect in silence and also DEMAND that Celtic make a statement thereby finally taking a stand against the Scottish shame that is sectariamism.

I'm not against a minutes applause to remember someone recently deceased as i think it's a fantastic way to celebrate their life however there was nothing to celebrate about the war except the end of it.

I agree that a minutes applause is inappropriate, it has always been a minute's silence. I think from an Irish perspective though, opposing forces would be the British.

I don't think this sort of thing should be in football stadiums at all tbh. Regardless of people making protests or whatever else, it is practically impossible to have a minutes silence. There is always the noise of people coming up the road etc.

Then the occasion gets too much for some people - the type that used to make farting noises at the back of the class when things were too difficult for them to understand. This in turn prompts the righteous indignation on the other side, who see the whole thing as a competition between the two teams, rather than something they are all supposed to have in common.

It's time football got real, and accepted its place as a form of entertainment, and stopped believing the guff about its important role to society. It's not for football clubs or fans to take on the big issues of the day, especially as they invariably ***** them up.

[Nameless]

It is reassuring to know that some things never change. Nade still can't hit a cows ar$e with a banjo, my wife still doesn't like onions, and we are, just as we were last year (and the year before that, and the year before that) discussing celtic fans and rememberance day tributes:wink:

[HibbyDave]

It is reassuring to know that some things never change. Nade still can't hit a cows ar$e with a banjo, my wife still doesn't like onions, and we are, just as we were last year (and the year before that, and the year before that) discussing celtic fans and rememberance day tributes:wink:

Why do you think that is?


Possible answers:
The powers in scottish football are cowards?
The powers at Celtic are scared that they further disenchant their marvelous followers?

Lest we forget.

[I'm_cabbaged]

I agree that a minutes applause is inappropriate, it has always been a minute's silence. I think from an Irish perspective though, opposing forces would be the British.

I don't think this sort of thing should be in football stadiums at all tbh. Regardless of people making protests or whatever else, it is practically impossible to have a minutes silence. There is always the noise of people coming up the road etc.

Then the occasion gets too much for some people - the type that used to make farting noises at the back of the class when things were too difficult for them to understand. This in turn prompts the righteous indignation on the other side, who see the whole thing as a competition between the two teams, rather than something they are all supposed to have in common.

It's time football got real, and accepted its place as a form of entertainment, and stopped believing the guff about its important role to society. It's not for football clubs or fans to take on the big issues of the day, especially as they invariably ***** them up.

There where many nationalist Irish that fell in WW1 aswell though, my Great Grandfather and his two brothers served in it and never returned, a whole generation was lost.......................

[Nameless]

Why do you think that is?


Possible answers:
The powers in scottish football are cowards?
The powers at Celtic are scared that they further disenchant their marvelous followers?

Lest we forget.



My view is this, that rememberance is a personal choice. I chose to remember in a church with my family, not in a football stadium full of strangers. It is not the place of a football club to impose societies views about political issues onto its fans.

[lapsedhibee]

I agree that a minutes applause is inappropriate, it has always been a minute's silence. I think from an Irish perspective though, opposing forces would be the British.

I don't think this sort of thing should be in football stadiums at all tbh. Regardless of people making protests or whatever else, it is practically impossible to have a minutes silence. There is always the noise of people coming up the road etc.

Then the occasion gets too much for some people - the type that used to make farting noises at the back of the class when things were too difficult for them to understand. This in turn prompts the righteous indignation on the other side, who see the whole thing as a competition between the two teams, rather than something they are all supposed to have in common.

It's time football got real, and accepted its place as a form of entertainment, and stopped believing the guff about its important role to society. It's not for football clubs or fans to take on the big issues of the day, especially as they invariably ***** them up.

Agree with aw that, except I remember the tradition as being two minutes' silence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/remembrance/how/silence.shtml).

[Vini1875]

I understand the point of view from both sides, but sometimes dignity has to be the way forward. I don't agree with the minutes silence in football grounds for rememberance sunday. However I simply sit down and keep my mouth shut during it . I do the same thing for other silences I do not agree with. Standing and turning your back on it is also a dignified protest. The minutes applause by celtc is a cowardly way out of it.

[HibbyDave]

My view is this, that rememberance is a personal choice. I chose to remember in a church with my family, not in a football stadium full of strangers. It is not the place of a football club to impose societies views about political issues onto its fans.

Of course remembrance is a personal choice, no argument from me on that score. The fact remains that remembrance has always been a national issue and all public life has been involved in the process of remembering the fallen.

The original post was concerned with the fact that Celtic have decided to request a minutes applause as opposed to silence which has been the recognised way to offer tribute to the fallen since remembrance was introduced.
I simply believe that if we are ever going to tackle some of the issues surrounding sectariamism then we need clubs involved to make their position absolutely clear (perhaps Celtic have done that simply by falling in line with their alledged minority fan group)?

[Nameless]

if we are ever going to tackle some of the issues surrounding sectariamism then we need clubs involved to make their position absolutely clear (perhaps Celtic have done that simply by falling in line with their alledged minority fan group)?

That, I think, pretty much nails the situation :agree:

I hope you can ackowledge though, that the stance celtic are taking is not wholeheartedly accepted by all celtic fans. I know a great many who currently serve this country with distinction.

[HibbyDave]

That, I think, pretty much nails the situation :agree:

I hope you can ackowledge though, that the stance celtic are taking is not wholeheartedly accepted by all celtic fans. I know a great many who currently serve this country with distinction.

Yes I can! I also know many Celtic fans in the forces and others who are concerned by the stance their club is taking.

[AndyP]

I agree that a minutes applause is inappropriate, it has always been a minute's silence. I think from an Irish perspective though, opposing forces would be the British.


Yet there were swathes of Irish men from both the North and South of the country who served and died in both World Wars and the various conflicts after so IMO it has nothing to do with perceived forces of occupation but more to do with respecting your fellow countrymen who have fallen :confused:

[--------]

Agree with aw that, except I remember the tradition as being two minutes' silence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/remembrance/how/silence.shtml).


Yup. the original observance was for everything - traffic, business, conversation, everything - to stop for two minutes at 11.00am on the 11th of November every year, regardless of what day of the week it happened to be. I think it was after the Second World War that the silence was moved to the Sunday nearest the 11th of November, but it's still supposed to be TWO minutes.

I think a lot of people find a two-minute silence quite difficult, but in the right context it affords a proper context for reflection, IMO. People unwilling to join in the Act of Remembrance can keep away - those present are there to honour the war dead. In one sense, it's a funeral service, after all.

IMO having silences at football matches is inappropriate - a football match is a social occasion, it's entertainment, and many people aren't in the proper frame of mind tp participate properly. It's almost inviting disrespect, I think.

[Kaiser1962]

My view is this, that rememberance is a personal choice. I chose to remember in a church with my family, not in a football stadium full of strangers. It is not the place of a football club to impose societies views about political issues onto its fans.

Disagree. Our club is an important institution to those of us who follow it and should be setting an example of respect to society saying "This is who we are" and remembering the Fallen be they British, Irish, German or whatever. We are displaying our respect for those who gave their lives and those who preserved our freedoms in the past and today. Celtic are a stain on our society and an embarrassment to this nation.

[Brizo]

It's time football got real, and accepted its place as a form of entertainment, and stopped believing the guff about its important role to society. It's not for football clubs or fans to take on the big issues of the day, especially as they invariably ***** them up.


My view is this, that rememberance is a personal choice. I chose to remember in a church with my family, not in a football stadium full of strangers. It is not the place of a football club to impose societies views about political issues onto its fans.

:agree:

Fitba sometimes deludes itself with its own self importance. Bottom line is its just another part of the entertainment industry , like pubs cinemas and restaurants. They wont be holding a minutes silence / applause in Mathers, the Dominion picture house or Jimmy Chungs. The Remembrance minutes silence/applause at fitba is a relatively new thing as is tbh the whole minutes silence/applause thing at fitba. IIRC I went through most of the 70s and 80s Hibs matches hardly ever coming across one.

It used to be that if you wished to pay your respects at Rememberance time you attended a service at a war memorial or a church. This ensured that only people wanting to pay their respects were there. In taking it into public arenas like sports stadiums society is asking people to pay their respects for something that some will not respect.

The post Diana cult of compulsory public mourning has a lot to answer for imo. In allowing themselves to go down this road the fitba authorities have made a rod for their own back at this time every year and also every time a political , Royal, religious or controversial fitba figure passes away.

[--------]

Disagree. Our club is an important institution to those of us who follow it and should be setting an example of respect to society saying "This is who we are" and remembering the Fallen be they British, Irish, German or whatever. We are displaying our respect for those who gave their lives and those who preserved our freedoms in the past and today. Celtic are a stain on our society and an embarrassment to this nation.


Fine if we can manage it. Not sure we can at all the football grounds.

[Kaiser1962]

Fine if we can manage it. Not sure we can at all the football grounds.

Fair point but I would expect Hibernian and it's followers to observe this occasion. As has been pointed out earlier some may not agree with it but if they dont and they do not observe the silence they are not only embarrassing themselves but are letting the club down also. Let Celtic (and/or others) shame themselves in front the nation/world but please let Hibs and its followers show a modicum of dignity. Let not let this club down like the Yams did at Hampden following the death of the Pope.

[HibbyDave]

:agree:

Fitba sometimes deludes itself with its own self importance. Bottom line is its just another part of the entertainment industry , like pubs cinemas and restaurants. They wont be holding a minutes silence / applause in Mathers, the Dominion picture house or Jimmy Chungs. The Remembrance minutes silence/applause at fitba is a relatively new thing as is tbh the whole minutes silence/applause thing at fitba. IIRC I went through most of the 70s and 80s Hibs matches hardly ever coming across one.

It used to be that if you wished to pay your respects at Rememberance time you attended a service at a war memorial or a church. This ensured that only people wanting to pay their respects were there. In taking it into public arenas like sports stadiums society is asking people to pay their respects for something that some will not respect.


The post Diana cult of compulsory public mourning has a lot to answer for imo. In allowing themselves to go down this road the fitba authorities have made a rod for their own back at this time every year and also every time a political , Royal, religious or controversial fitba figure passes away.
.
See post 13 (paragraphs one and two). Surely it's not too much that people shut up for one/two minutes once a year?

[Sir David Gray]

Disagree. Our club is an important institution to those of us who follow it and should be setting an example of respect to society saying "This is who we are" and remembering the Fallen be they British, Irish, German or whatever. We are displaying our respect for those who gave their lives and those who preserved our freedoms in the past and today. Celtic are a stain on our society and an embarrassment to this nation.

Absolutely. :top marks

I agree with every word.

[Phil D. Rolls]

There where many nationalist Irish that fell in WW1 aswell though, my Great Grandfather and his two brothers served in it and never returned, a whole generation was lost.......................


Yet there were swathes of Irish men from both the North and South of the country who served and died in both World Wars and the various conflicts after so IMO it has nothing to do with perceived forces of occupation but more to do with respecting your fellow countrymen who have fallen :confused:

I have no axe to grind on that particular subject, other than that - as you say - there were men from both sides of the divide who died for Britain during the great war.

I was trying to be fair to Irish Republicans who maybe see WW1 through different eyes. I think it was all a long time ago though, and they might at least see the right of Britain to honour its war dead.

At the same time, I think there is no need for it to take place in a football ground at all. As has rightly been pointed out, there are appropriate places to remember the Armistice, and a lot of this is part of the post-Diana grief cult that has swept the country.

To me it's the same as road side shrines. I feel the people's pain, but I wish they would grieve in a way that doesn't spread their pain to the rest of us. We have cemetries and crematoria to remember the dead. We have war memorials to remember the war dead.

A place for everything and everything in its place, I think.

[--------]

.[/B]
See post 13 (paragraphs one and two). Surely it's not too much that people shut up for one/two minutes once a year?

I would agree with you 100%. Unfortunately some people won't, and that leads to a proposed Act of Remembrance degenerating into disrespect. Two minutes, on the 11th, at 11 o'clock in the morning - in the workplace or wherever.

What chance, d'you think?


I have no axe to grind on that particular subject, other than that - as you say - there were men from both sides of the divide who died for Britain during the great war.

I was trying to be fair to Irish Republicans who maybe see WW1 through different eyes. I think it was all a long time ago though, and they might at least see the right of Britain to honour its war dead.

At the same time, I think there is no need for it to take place in a football ground at all. As has rightly been pointed out, there are appropriate places to remember the Armistice, and a lot of this is part of the post-Diana grief cult that has swept the country.

To me it's the same as road side shrines. I feel the people's pain, but I wish they would grieve in a way that doesn't spread their pain to the rest of us. We have cemetries and crematoria to remember the dead. We have war memorials to remember the war dead.

A place for everything and everything in its place, I think.

:agree:

[Brizo]

.[/B]
See post 13 (paragraphs one and two). Surely it's not too much that people shut up for one/two minutes once a year?

I agree with that Dave. And in an ideal world people who didnt want to take part would stay under the stands until the minute was over. But were dealing with pondlife here and every club has them , even our own.

My personal view fwiw is that we should get back to the situation where minutes silences / applauses in fitba grounds are restricted to deceased employees of the home club .... with due consideration given to the opposition attending on that particular day :wink:.

As FR has said a place for everything and everything in its place. Imho the place for remembrance is war memorials and churchs not entertainment venues such as fitba grounds.

[heretoday]

Is it me or are folk wearing poppies earlier and earlier each year? Is it the Diana syndrome as mentioned above, or is it that in our increasingly fractured and alienating society people feel a need to wear their hearts on their sleeves more - to show that they, at least, are caring individuals? Discuss.

[clerriehibs]

Yup. the original observance was for everything - traffic, business, conversation, everything - to stop for two minutes at 11.00am on the 11th of November every year, regardless of what day of the week it happened to be. I think it was after the Second World War that the silence was moved to the Sunday nearest the 11th of November, but it's still supposed to be TWO minutes.

I think a lot of people find a two-minute silence quite difficult, but in the right context it affords a proper context for reflection, IMO. People unwilling to join in the Act of Remembrance can keep away - those present are there to honour the war dead. In one sense, it's a funeral service, after all.

IMO having silences at football matches is inappropriate - a football match is a social occasion, it's entertainment, and many people aren't in the proper frame of mind tp participate properly. It's almost inviting disrespect, I think.

It still is two minutes at the 11th hour on the sunday nearest the 11th of the 11th isn't it?

The discussion here is about the additional silences that are to be observed. None of the silences at the football grounds replace the 2 mins at 11am, so there's no need for them to also be 2 mins.

[--------]

It still is two minutes at the 11th hour on the sunday nearest the 11th of the 11th isn't it?

The discussion here is about the additional silences that are to be observed. None of the silences at the football grounds replace the 2 mins at 11am, so there's no need for them to also be 2 mins.


It should be - it is when I'm taking the service. The only thing I'd say should be considered is how long the older people can stand - but they're usually the ones who appreciate a proper observance of the day. That goes for services in church buildings and at war memorials - this will be my 27th year (if I'm spared) and I've never known disresepct yet at any Remembrance ceremony I've been involved with.

Usually we start the silence with the Last Post and end it with Reveille. Two minutes.

[lapsedhibee]

It still is two minutes at the 11th hour on the sunday nearest the 11th of the 11th isn't it?

The discussion here is about the additional silences that are to be observed. None of the silences at the football grounds replace the 2 mins at 11am, so there's no need for them to also be 2 mins.

Don't think anyone's trying to suggest there should be a 2 mins silence at a fitba match. 0 mins would be more popular.

Changing the two minute silence from 11,11,11 to an adjacent Sunday is already a sop to modern convenience. Reducing it to one minute at entertainment events is another.

Let's have the 2 mins back where it was before and no more fitba involvement, no poppies on shirts, no sales of shirts with poppies on, no commemorative DVDs of how our club showed more respect than your club did, etc.

PS don't think that last one's actually been formally announced yet

[Phil D. Rolls]

Is it me or are folk wearing poppies earlier and earlier each year? Is it the Diana syndrome as mentioned above, or is it that in our increasingly fractured and alienating society people feel a need to wear their hearts on their sleeves more - to show that they, at least, are caring individuals? Discuss.

Some might suggest that the government is trying to play up anything that is patriotic. I think that stinks, as it was just that sort of jingoistic attitude that led to "ladies" sending young men white feathers in 1916 that led to the Hearts team (and many others) making the ultimate sacrifice.

I accept that there has always been a patriotic element to Armistice day, but I thought that in recent years - especially with the increasing number of joint services with ex German soldiers - that we were moving more towards remembering how horrible war actually is.

Notwithstanding what I have just written, I hate when they try to invent new traditions. It shows how few people understood them in the first place.

[StevieC]

Why do you think that is?

Maybe onions have just too strong a flavour for her???

[steakbake]

It's time football got real, and accepted its place as a form of entertainment, and stopped believing the guff about its important role to society. It's not for football clubs or fans to take on the big issues of the day, especially as they invariably ***** them up.

:agree:

Nail on the head. Its a football match. Entertainment - paid entertainment at that. If I went to the cinema, I wouldn't expect there to be a minute's silence before the start of the film.

Unless we kick off at 11am on the 11th November, I don't think there should be a minute's silence.

Also, the invariable threads of people on their moral high horses moaning about celtic fans or heaven forfend, a breach in the silence by the away fans etc are all just a bit tedious.

[AndyP]

I accept that there has always been a patriotic element to Armistice day, but I thought that in recent years - especially with the increasing number of joint services with ex German soldiers - that we were moving more towards remembering how horrible war actually is.

Stood side by side with German soldiers at an Armistice parade when in Afghanistan and it is/was exactly as you say. Perhaps it was easier given where we were at the time and considering that 6 of those sodliers were dead a few weeks later, certainly gave it some extra meaning when I look back on it

[heretoday]

I can remember in the sixties people would wear poppies for about a week before the day. my parents would take me to a war memorial in the city and there would be some words, the Last Post and a minute's silence.

There were a few hankies out among the ladies but generally the men stayed silent and rigid. It used to be called stiff upper lip. Nowadays if you're not at least brimming with emotion you're branded cold and unfeeling.

That was nearer in time to the World Wars and involved lots of people who had actually fought in them. And it was far more moving than the stage-managed events we see today.

[HibbyDave]

:agree:

Nail on the head. Its a football match. Entertainment - paid entertainment at that. If I went to the cinema, I wouldn't expect there to be a minute's silence before the start of the film.

Unless we kick off at 11am on the 11th November, I don't think there should be a minute's silence.

Also, the invariable threads of people on their moral high horses moaning about celtic fans or heaven forfend, a breach in the silence by the away fans etc are all just a bit tedious.

The thread was started with the intention of highlighting the fact that an institution (Celtic) have singularly failed to aknowledge that there is a problem with the attitude/disrespect from their fans. Furthermore that the football authorities in Scotland failed again to show any courage whatsoever in deraling with the issue.
Finally...NOT moral highground just someone that wants to see what I believe to be the correct mark of respect shown whether or not.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

:agree:

Nail on the head. Its a football match. Entertainment - paid entertainment at that. If I went to the cinema, I wouldn't expect there to be a minute's silence before the start of the film.

Unless we kick off at 11am on the 11th November, I don't think there should be a minute's silence.

Also, the invariable threads of people on their moral high horses moaning about celtic fans or heaven forfend, a breach in the silence by the away fans etc are all just a bit tedious.
:agree:

[Bishop Hibee]

:agree:

Fitba sometimes deludes itself with its own self importance. Bottom line is its just another part of the entertainment industry , like pubs cinemas and restaurants. They wont be holding a minutes silence / applause in Mathers, the Dominion picture house or Jimmy Chungs. The Remembrance minutes silence/applause at fitba is a relatively new thing as is tbh the whole minutes silence/applause thing at fitba. IIRC I went through most of the 70s and 80s Hibs matches hardly ever coming across one.

It used to be that if you wished to pay your respects at Rememberance time you attended a service at a war memorial or a church. This ensured that only people wanting to pay their respects were there. In taking it into public arenas like sports stadiums society is asking people to pay their respects for something that some will not respect.

The post Diana cult of compulsory public mourning has a lot to answer for imo. In allowing themselves to go down this road the fitba authorities have made a rod for their own back at this time every year and also every time a political , Royal, religious or controversial fitba figure passes away.

:top marks

Minutes silence for a former player or member of staff of the home club should be the norm. Only exceptions such as the Hillsborough disaster should transcend this.

[surreyhibbie]

Is it me or are folk wearing poppies earlier and earlier each year? Is it the Diana syndrome as mentioned above, or is it that in our increasingly fractured and alienating society people feel a need to wear their hearts on their sleeves more - to show that they, at least, are caring individuals? Discuss.

Maybe.

Some of the confusion is that there is an official "Poppy Launch" for each part of the Country - London seems to be in front of Surrey each year, so no-one is really sure when it starts.

In addition, to collect money for ANY charity requires a street collection licence, the Poppy Appeal has a two-week slot when it is allowed to have people on the streets. This does NOT coincide with the launch dates.

The collectors have to deliver the boxes to shops etc in advance, and despite being told not to start until the official date, many don't pay any attention so they are on sale before anyone can stand on the streets and collect donations.

Result is that no-one has a clue when they are "allowed" to wear a poppy.

Personally, I have one on my car all year round. And not because I'm too lazy to take it off either. And I reserve the right to wear a poppy any time I bloody like.

[monktonharp]

Fair point but I would expect Hibernian and it's followers to observe this occasion. As has been pointed out earlier some may not agree with it but if they dont and they do not observe the silence they are not only embarrassing themselves but are letting the club down also. Let Celtic (and/or others) shame themselves in front the nation/world but please let Hibs and its followers show a modicum of dignity. Let not let this club down like the Yams did at Hampden following the death of the Pope.You are perfectly entititled to your opinion,but some would disagree and it looks to me that you have some other agenda,eg:in some way saying that it's an Irish conspiricy of sorts,to derail a national (british) tradition to have a day of mourning/remembrance at sporting events ,and that anyone that comes in between that is showing disrespect. I
think that is crass,and disrespectful in it's self,and find it hard to see the need for it happening at our game against HMoFC which is several days before remembrance day and also reeks of oneupmanship on the part of said football club. my own mother lost 2 brothers in the 2nd world war,1 in Malaya and 1 in Burma fighting the Imprial Japanese,and I was not even born before they died but I have every respect for no doubt millions of people that were in the same situation,but why the hell are we all of a sudden bringing this into sporting occasions?

[jakedance]

I spent over 5 hours at the Imperial War Museum on Saturday and I can only imagine that anyone who wouldn't respect the two minutes silence is completely ignorant of what it's all about. It should be a time when people from all backgrounds and political beliefs are united in their respect for the millions of ordinary people that lost their lives, from both sides.

It's incredibly important that these traditions are upheld, especially once it's passed from living memory.

I agree that minutes silences are brought out far too often, which has only resulted in them being cheapened when their is a strong case for one. I do think this is something football should honour. With the decline in people going to church it's one of the few, if only places, most of us congregate en masse.

[Hibs On Tour]

Can kinda see all the viewpoints here to be honest. Don't think that Celtic will do anything about addressing the issue on their side because they're more concerned with not upsetting their own supporters some of who may have 'other views'...

That said, I agree both that there are services at war memorials for those who want to attend such and can see why some may say 'why bring additional silences to football grounds'. For me, its just too big a thing NOT to take some additional and special signifigance.

After all, this isn't about politics, religion or any other such bollocks - its about normal people having died in the horrors of war. Think Harry Patch said it best when he said 'all war is just legalised murder'

Lest we Forget

[monktonharp]

I've never been to a war museum,and dont think I will ever go to one. I dont feel bad about that, and dont think i'll ever feel bad about it either. Ialso dont think that a minute's silence needs to be upheld at sporting events,either side of the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of November.

[Cabbage East]

I've never been to a war museum,and dont think I will ever go to one. I dont feel bad about that, and dont think i'll ever feel bad about it either. Ialso dont think that a minute's silence needs to be upheld at sporting events,either side of the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of November.

spot on.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I can remember in the sixties people would wear poppies for about a week before the day. my parents would take me to a war memorial in the city and there would be some words, the Last Post and a minute's silence.

There were a few hankies out among the ladies but generally the men stayed silent and rigid. It used to be called stiff upper lip. Nowadays if you're not at least brimming with emotion you're branded cold and unfeeling.

That was nearer in time to the World Wars and involved lots of people who had actually fought in them. And it was far more moving than the stage-managed events we see today.

I agree with that. My point has been that if we need guidance about how to manage the thing we should look to the past and do it the way they did. After all they were directly affected by the event.

I feel that there is a lot of false sentiment these days and people feel they have to look sad even if they don't feel that way. That's why I think linking to football cheapens the Armistice and takes it into the realms of entertainment.

[Joe Baker II]

:agree:

Also, the invariable threads of people on their moral high horses moaning about celtic fans or heaven forfend, a breach in the silence by the away fans etc are all just a bit tedious.

Hibs fans have often not observed minutes silences - not intended as a criticism as no one should be forced to and we can hardly be blamed for not observing Mercer's one. However, we know fine that there is a vocal minority of Hibs fans who embarass the majority by looking for any excuse to claim a moral high ground over other clubs (particularly but not exclusively Celtic) supporters but good on you for expressed it so well.

Have no problem with commemorating war dead though agree that football not best forum for this and the Diana reaction has a lot to answer for.

Think double standards easily arise here, not hard to argue that Celtic (and Hibs) would have every right to commemorate those killed fighting for Irish Nationalist cause too but there would be quite a few Hibs fans (sadly) happy to interrupt such a commemoration.

[heretoday]

I agree with that. My point has been that if we need guidance about how to manage the thing we should look to the past and do it the way they did. After all they were directly affected by the event.

I feel that there is a lot of false sentiment these days and people feel they have to look sad even if they don't feel that way. That's why I think linking to football cheapens the Armistice and takes it into the realms of entertainment.

The way we are expected to mourn events great and small now has been strongly influenced by Hollywood films and TV shows. Much else in this country has been affected by US culture too, for better or worse.

One industry has certainly benefitted. The florists of Britain must annually raise a glass to Princess Diana. Business has been booming ever since her demise!

[Dipped flake]

You are perfectly entititled to your opinion,but some would disagree and it looks to me that you have some other agenda,eg:in some way saying that it's an Irish conspiricy of sorts,to derail a national (british) tradition to have a day of mourning/remembrance at sporting events ,and that anyone that comes in between that is showing disrespect. I
think that is crass,and disrespectful in it's self,and find it hard to see the need for it happening at our game against HMoFC which is several days before remembrance day and also reeks of oneupmanship on the part of said football club. my own mother lost 2 brothers in the 2nd world war,1 in Malaya and 1 in Burma fighting the Imprial Japanese,and I was not even born before they died but I have every respect for no doubt millions of people that were in the same situation,but why the hell are we all of a sudden bringing this into sporting occasions?
Tried to keep out of this but that post I just couldn't ignore. For your information monktonharp, every ground in Scotland is marking remembrance day that weekend so please can we have no more garbage about Hearts and oneupmanship on this. If you have a problem see the SPL fixtures guy/girl. Also, on the whole Hearts and us winning the World War, or wars. All clubs should honour their history and, for Hearts, the sacrifice of the players in the First World War is a HUGE part of our history. Are Hearts a huge part of the history of WW1, of course not but, like it or not, the story of WW1 is a very significant part of the history of my club

[lapsedhibee]

for Hearts, the sacrifice of the players in the First World War is a HUGE part of our history

Think we know that. The interesting question is why? :dunno:

[Dipped flake]

Think we know that. The interesting question is why? :dunno:
Sorry, not sure what your point is. I am sure you know the story of how the Hearts team joined up and a team seemingly destined to win the league that year was decimated. The city of Edinburgh recognised this act by presenting the Haymarket memorial to the club. WW1 is as much a part of our history as the Munich disaster is to Man Utd or Hillsbourough is to Liverpool. As I said earlier, we are a very small part of the history of WW1 but WW1 almost defined us as a club.

[lapsedhibee]

Sorry, not sure what your point is. I am sure you know the story of how the Hearts team joined up and a team seemingly destined to win the league that year was decimated.
You'd have to be from Mars not to know the story. Or Tommy - not the WWI soldier, the deaf dumb and blind kid.


The city of Edinburgh recognised this act by presenting the Haymarket memorial to the club. WW1 is as much a part of our history as the Munich disaster is to Man Utd or Hillsbourough is to Liverpool. As I said earlier, we are a very small part of the history of WW1 but WW1 almost defined us as a club.
But Munich doesn't "define" ManUre or Hillsborough "define" Liverpool. They are big teams with a spectacular history of international achievement. You are just a diddy wee club desperately looking around for something decent to cling on to, and appropriate, at a time that the whole of the rest of the sport is ridiculing you.

[Dipped flake]

You'd have to be from Mars not to know the story. Or Tommy - not the WWI soldier, the deaf dumb and blind kid.


But Munich doesn't "define" ManUre or Hillsborough "define" Liverpool. They are big teams with a spectacular history of international achievement. You are just a diddy wee club desperately looking around for something decent to cling on to, and appropriate, at a time that the whole of the rest of the sport is ridiculing you.

What a sad response. We have been 'clinging' on to this for almost a hundred years. And as for being a diddy wee club, not sure what that makes hibs or every other club in Scotland apart from the bigot bros.

[--------]

Sorry, not sure what your point is. I am sure you know the story of how the Hearts team joined up and a team seemingly destined to win the league that year was decimated. The city of Edinburgh recognised this act by presenting the Haymarket memorial to the club. WW1 is as much a part of our history as the Munich disaster is to Man Utd or Hillsbourough is to Liverpool. As I said earlier, we are a very small part of the history of WW1 but WW1 almost defined us as a club.


Oh yes. We hear it every two or three months or so.

Every year around this time particularly.

Just to keep the record straight - there were a lot of young men already in the British Army dying while McCrae's was being mustered.

In fact, 214 of them were from the Royal Scots' 7th Battalion (TA) mostly recruited from Leith. They died at Gretna in May 1915, and they weren't given a shiny big memorial outside a railway station - theirs is tucked away right at the back of the Rosebank Cemetery in Pilrig. Most of them came from leith and the east of Edinburgh. A number of them had played for Hibs.

And McCrae's was just ONE of DOZENS of "Pals" battalions raised from all over the UK in 1914-15 for Kitchener's New Army of 1916. They ALL made a huge sacrifice of themselves, not just McCrae's. Certainly not just Heart of Midlothian.

No disrespect to the men who served and died - the Royals were where most of my family served in both World Wars - but remembering our war dead is one thing.

Boosting yourselves on the memory of their sacrifice is something else.

[lapsedhibee]

We have been 'clinging' on to this for almost a hundred years.

No. The memorial at Haymarket - or as Mikey Mikey Used To Be now puts it, your memorial - has been up for a hundred years, and war dead have no doubt been remembered there properly for most of those years. You are clinging on to it now, more with every year that goes by, because your puppetmaster has more or less destroyed everything else that was decent about your club.

[Mary Hinge]

Oh yes. We hear it every two or three months or so.

Every year around this time particularly.

Just to keep the record straight - there were a lot of young men already in the British Army dying while McCrae's was being mustered.

In fact, 214 of them were from the Royal Scots' 7th Battalion (TA) mostly recruited from Leith. They died at Gretna in May 1915, and they weren't given a shiny big memorial outside a railway station - theirs is tucked away right at the back of the Rosebank Cemetery in Pilrig. Most of them came from leith and the east of Edinburgh. A number of them had played for Hibs.

And McCrae's was just ONE of DOZENS of "Pals" battalions raised from all over the UK in 1914-15 for Kitchener's New Army of 1916. They ALL made a huge sacrifice of themselves, not just McCrae's. Certainly not just Heart of Midlothian.

No disrespect to the men who served and died - the Royals were where most of my family served in both World Wars - but remembering our war dead is one thing.

Boosting yourselves on the memory of their sacrifice is something else.

Absolutely spot on :top marks

[--------]

No. The memorial at Haymarket - or as Mikey Mikey Used To Be now puts it, your memorial - has been up for a hundred years, and war dead have no doubt been remembered there properly for most of those years. You are clinging on to it now, more with every year that goes by, because your puppetmaster has more or less destroyed everything else that was decent about your club.


:agree:

That memorial is supposed to be about a whole battalion. Hearts appropriated it as their 'own' almost as soon as it was erected.

The myth was that while the gallant Hearts boys were dying for their country, the nasty Fenian Hibees were all running off to join the IRA.

This was thrown at me as a teenager when I asked Hearts supporters about the signifcance of the Haymarket memorial.

As you say, lh - Vlad's destroyed everything that was real and decent about the club, so they have to hang on to their past history and make it into something it isn't.

[lapsedhibee]

Sorry, not sure what your point is. I am sure you know the story of how the Hearts team joined up and a team seemingly destined to win the league that year was decimated. The city of Edinburgh recognised this act by presenting the Haymarket memorial to the club. WW1 is as much a part of our history as the Munich disaster is to Man Utd or Hillsbourough is to Liverpool. As I said earlier, we are a very small part of the history of WW1 but WW1 almost defined us as a club.

Incidentally DF, and I'm happy to be corrected, I think you have things the wrong way round. My understanding is that Hearts gave the memorial to the city, rather than the city giving the memorial to Hearts. If 'you' gave the thing to 'us' in 1922, then thanks very much, sit down, shut up. :wink:

[Dipped flake]

:agree:

That memorial is supposed to be about a whole battalion. No it is not, it is a memorial to the Hearts players that died, it has nothing to do with McCraes battalion. If you want, go along on the 8th and read the words on the statue Hearts appropriated it as their 'own' almost as soon as it was erected. Rubbish, it was erected for Hearts

The myth was that while the gallant Hearts boys were dying for their country, the nasty Fenian Hibees were all running off to join the IRA. Of course there would have been some Hibs fans that went off to fight for the ira but they would have been vastly outnumbered by the ones who signed up to fight in WW1

This was thrown at me as a teenager when I asked Hearts supporters about the signifcance of the Haymarket memorial.

As you say, lh - Vlad's destroyed everything that was real and decent about the club, so they have to hang on to their past history and make it into something it isn't.

Our history is what it is.

[Dipped flake]

Incidentally DF, and I'm happy to be corrected, I think you have things the wrong way round. My understanding is that Hearts gave the memorial to the city, rather than the city giving the memorial to Hearts. If 'you' gave the thing to 'us' in 1922, then thanks very much, sit down, shut up. :wink:

Well consider youself corrected. The memorial was presented to Hearts by the council
Edited this to now say
Now I can consider myself corrected in that funds were raised for the memorial by Hearts fans and the club, with help and financial support from the council

[Phil D. Rolls]

The way we are expected to mourn events great and small now has been strongly influenced by Hollywood films and TV shows. Much else in this country has been affected by US culture too, for better or worse.

One industry has certainly benefitted. The florists of Britain must annually raise a glass to Princess Diana. Business has been booming ever since her demise!

I see it as part of the "15 minutes of fame syndrome". People want to be involved in something that is media worthy in some misplaced hope that they are as important as the event. Fine for the likes of football matches and rock festivals, but a bit much when it comes to misplaced grief for someone who had no affect on your life (not that the war dead had no effect, but that some people are mourning without thinking about what it actually means).

[Dipped flake]

I see it as part of the "15 minutes of fame syndrome". People want to be involved in something that is media worthy in some misplaced hope that they are as important as the event. Fine for the likes of football matches and rock festivals, but a bit much when it comes to misplaced grief for someone who had no affect on your life (not that the war dead had no effect, but that some people are mourning without thinking about what it actually means).
FWIW I myself am very much against 'forced' grief. Despite what I have already posted on this subject, I think that we probably should not have a minutes silence, unless the game is on the 11th but the main reason I posted on this subject was because someone was accusing Hearts of orchestrating the silence just because we were playing Hibs. I try and attend the service at Haymarket every year but that is my choice

[Phil D. Rolls]

FWIW I myself am very much against 'forced' grief. Despite what I have already posted on this subject, I think that we probably should not have a minutes silence, unless the game is on the 11th but the main reason I posted on this subject was because someone was accusing Hearts of orchestrating the silence just because we were playing Hibs. I try and attend the service at Haymarket every year but that is my choice

I was speaking in more general terms than the forthcoming derby. I have to say though, my fears about the Hearts FC approach towards Remembrance Sunday seem to becoming more real each year. I hope that doesn't sound like a criticism of the longstanding Haymarket tradition - that was always a "private" event and one which I think was done for the right reasons.

I don't think Hearts FC are necessarily bigging it up to get at Hibs, and it is probably a coincidence that we are the visitors this year. I have been more concerned how the MacRae's battalion thing has become a marketing opportunity for some.

[Dipped flake]

I was speaking in more general terms than the forthcoming derby. I have to say though, my fears about the Hearts FC approach towards Remembrance Sunday seem to becoming more real each year. I hope that doesn't sound like a criticism of the longstanding Haymarket tradition - that was always a "private" event and one which I think was done for the right reasons.

I don't think Hearts FC are necessarily bigging it up to get at Hibs, and it is probably a coincidence that we are the visitors this year. I have been more concerned how the MacRae's battalion thing has become a marketing opportunity for some.

I agree that there is a danger that the Hearts memorial and MacRae's battalion get mixed up, as evidenced on this thread. Some of the Hearts players that died in WW1 were never part of MacRae's and, of course, there were many (a majority I would imagine) in the battalion with no connection to Hearts.

[H1bs6H3arts2 FC]

My view is this, that rememberance is a personal choice. I chose to remember in a church with my family, not in a football stadium full of strangers. It is not the place of a football club to impose societies views about political issues onto its fans.

:top marks- sport should not be used as a political tool :duck:

[heretoday]

I was speaking in more general terms than the forthcoming derby. I have to say though, my fears about the Hearts FC approach towards Remembrance Sunday seem to becoming more real each year. I hope that doesn't sound like a criticism of the longstanding Haymarket tradition - that was always a "private" event and one which I think was done for the right reasons.

I don't think Hearts FC are necessarily bigging it up to get at Hibs, and it is probably a coincidence that we are the visitors this year. I have been more concerned how the MacRae's battalion thing has become a marketing opportunity for some.

Correct. I have to be careful here but I would say that there will be very few in the ground genuinely mourning the men of MacRae's who died 90 odd years ago. It's Heart on the Sleeve stuff really.

[Hibs On Tour]

Know what I'd really like? A single bloody Rememberance Day where us and Hearts don't start ****ing this one-upmanship ***** on this forum about the Haymarket memorial and/or Macrae's Battalion.

Neither of them were anything to do with the original question which was IIRC related to Celtic's pishy response knowing their fans wouldn't observe the silence...

See from where I sit? Shame on any of them who do the one-upmanship thing with either, shame on any of us who try to beat them down for observing what was undoubtedly a major part of their history as a club. Rememberance Day is surely a day when there is a bigger picture that we can ALL see, no? :grr:

[surreyhibbie]

Know what I'd really like? A single bloody Rememberance Day where us and Hearts don't start ****ing this one-upmanship ***** on this forum about the Haymarket memorial and/or Macrae's Battalion.

Neither of them were anything to do with the original question which was IIRC related to Celtic's pishy response knowing their fans wouldn't observe the silence...

See from where I sit? Shame on any of them who do the one-upmanship thing with either, shame on any of us who try to beat them down for observing what was undoubtedly a major part of their history as a club. Rememberance Day is surely a day when there is a bigger picture that we can ALL see, no? :grr:

Agree.:agree:

[monktonharp]

Know what I'd really like? A single bloody Rememberance Day where us and Hearts don't start ****ing this one-upmanship ***** on this forum about the Haymarket memorial and/or Macrae's Battalion.

Neither of them were anything to do with the original question which was IIRC related to Celtic's pishy response knowing their fans wouldn't observe the silence...

See from where I sit? Shame on any of them who do the one-upmanship thing with either, shame on any of us who try to beat them down for observing what was undoubtedly a major part of their history as a club. Rememberance Day is surely a day when there is a bigger picture that we can ALL see, no? :grr:we can all see what Rememberance Day stands for,the main argument or dicussion/points of view are about whether it should be brought to a football stadium,see where I sit? dont try and visit your Shame on me or others who disagree with you.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Know what I'd really like? A single bloody Rememberance Day where us and Hearts don't start ****ing this one-upmanship ***** on this forum about the Haymarket memorial and/or Macrae's Battalion.

Neither of them were anything to do with the original question which was IIRC related to Celtic's pishy response knowing their fans wouldn't observe the silence...

See from where I sit? Shame on any of them who do the one-upmanship thing with either, shame on any of us who try to beat them down for observing what was undoubtedly a major part of their history as a club. Rememberance Day is surely a day when there is a bigger picture that we can ALL see, no? :grr:

I think a lot of people can appreciate the significance of Remembrance Day, and wonder why it has been necessary to take a different approach in recent years.


we can all see what Rememberance Day stands for,the main argument or dicussion/points of view are about whether it should be brought to a football stadium,see where I sit? dont try and visit your Shame on me or others who disagree with you.

:agree: