A new Scottish League Format

[MacBean]

All this chat of The ugly sisters running away to Engerland or the need for a Scottish football shake up got me thinking of the various possibilities that we could have.

I looked around the top nations in Europe and their league formats. Most of them have 20 teams in the top division with 3 being relegated and 3 coming up from the division below. There is also a pyramid system in place in a lot of leagues, like Spain and of course England that work incredibly well.

Why not up here in Scotland!

we have far too many teams in the lower leagues to be competing across three divisions and for only one team to go down from the top division leaves little for those in the lower leagues to aspire to as one spot is a massive challenge!

Why not this kind of format!? All the teams are placed as they currently are in thier league standings (expect the junior teams).

Scottish Premier League
Rangers
Celtic
Hibernian
Dundee Utd
Motherwell
Aberdeen
St Mirren
Hearts
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Hamilton
Falkirk
Ross County
Dundee
Partick Thistle
Raith Rovers
Queen of the South
Inverness Caley Thistle
Dunfermline
Greenock Morton

Bottom three relegated. top three from League one promoted.

Scottish League One
Ayr
Airdrie United
Stirling
Brechin
Cowdenbeath
Alloa
Peterhead
East Fife
Dumbarton
Arbroath
Stenhousemuir
Clyde
East Stirling
Albion
Livingston
Berwick
Forfar
Annan Athletic
Queens Park
Stranraer
Elgin
Montrose

Bottom four relegated, two from two Junior divisions replace them

Scottish Non-League split into two Leagues of 16-20 (north & south / East & West)
Including the likes of:
Spartans
Tynecastle
Whitehill Welfare
Vale of Leithen
Preston Athletic
Lothian Thistle
Dalbeattie Star
Threave Rovers
Buckie Thistle
Brora Rangers
Cove Rangers
Deveronvale
Forres Mechanics
Inverurie Locos
Civil Service
Edinburgh City
Lewis United
Irvine Meadow
Pollock
Banks O'Dee

I know this is a bit farfetched and perhaps a bit too much thought has gone into this, but i would LOVE to see a serious shake up in Scotland and something like this would do the trick!

What are your thoughst, or do i deserve to be shot down!?

discuss...

[basehibby]

You definately don't deserve to be shot down in flames as Scottish Fitba desperately needs a big shake up from top to bottom - one bugbear I would have though - what are the OF doing in there???

They've stated countless times that they don't want to be part of the Scottish party - so we should start planning for life without them and (IMO) should even be pro-active about it by telling them to GTF asap :bye::bye::bye:

[Spudster]

Good in theory but I think the top league would be flawed. Imagine trying to attract players to the SPL with these stadiums:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Park,_Dingwall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmerston_Park
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappielow

[MacBean]

Good in theory but I think the top league would be flawed. Imagine trying to attract players to the SPL with these stadiums:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Park,_Dingwall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmerston_Park
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappielow


I see your point, but look at the stadiums Dndee & Partick have and even Falkirk prior the new stadium, they have been in and out of the top Scottish league and the Old firm and even we had no issue signing good players competing against them.

[Cameron1875]

Scottish Premier League 18 teams
Hibernian
Rangers
Celtic
Dundee Utd
Motherwell
Aberdeen
St Mirren
Hearts
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Hamilton
Falkirk
Dundee
Partick Thistle
Inverness Caley Thistle
Dunfermline
Queen of the South
Raith Rovers

Scottish League One 12 teams
Ross County
Greenock Morton
Ayr
Airdrie United
Stirling
Brechin
Clyde
Livingston
Cowdenbeath
Alloa
Dumbarton
Arbroath

Scottish League Two 12 teams
East Fife
Stenhousemuir
East Stirling
Albion
Berwick
Forfar
Annan Athletic
Queens Park
Elgin
Peterhead
Stranraer
Montrose

Scottish Non-League split into two Leagues of 16-20 (north & south / East & West)
Including the likes of:
Spartans
Tynecastle
Whitehill Welfare
Vale of Leithen
Preston Athletic
Lothian Thistle
Dalbeattie Star
Threave Rovers
Buckie Thistle
Brora Rangers
Cove Rangers
Deveronvale
Forres Mechanics
Inverurie Locos
Civil Service
Edinburgh City
Lewis United
Irvine Meadow
Pollock
Banks O'Dee

I agree with what you are saying about a shake up 100%. I would have a top division of 18 teams with hibs for example playing other 17 teams twice to make 34 games. This would allow for a winter shutdown and less games being crammed in over a short space of time.

Division 1 and 2 should be 12 team leagues with 2 up and 2 down. The reason for this is that i feel just having SPL then league 1 is not enough. 3 leagues is better imo.

This means two teams from juniors replace 2 teams relegated from division 2

[MacBean]

I agree with what you are saying about a shake up 100%. I would have a top division of 18 teams with hibs for example playing other 17 teams twice to make 34 games. This would allow for a winter shutdown and less games being crammed in over a short space of time.

Division 1 and 2 should be 12 team leagues with 2 up and 2 down. The reason for this is that i feel just having SPL then league 1 is not enough. 3 leagues is better imo.

This means two teams from juniors replace 2 teams relegated from division 2

Again something like that would work!
There is absolutely no way that our league should have four divisions of professional teams it just doesnt work what so ever! Its pretty obvious for most to see!

[euro Hibby]

12 team system does not work anymore. Its boring playing each other 4 times albeit we should have a competative league this year.

The scraping of the reserve league is not such a good thing, but this may also force teams to farm out players more to the lower leagues so they get real competative action. Not a bad thing.

I am surprised clubs still don't take part ownership of players as happens on the continent.

For the moment its all talk.......until someone breaks in between the ugly sisters.

[JE89]

Scottish Premier League
Rangers
Celtic
Hibernian
Dundee Utd
Motherwell
Aberdeen
St Mirren
Hearts
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Hamilton
Falkirk
Ross County
Dundee
Partick Thistle
Raith Rovers
Queen of the South
Inverness Caley Thistle
Dunfermline
Greenock Morton

Bottom three relegated. top three from League one promoted.


It would significantly decrease the value of a season ticket with this league. Playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts four (twice at ER) times per season are games I really look forward too. With the new system, we would have one home game and one away against these team and the rest of the season filled up with the likes of Raith Rovers and Queen of the South - not for me

[MacBean]

It would significantly decrease the value of a season ticket with this league. Playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts four (twice at ER) times per season are games I really look forward too. With the new system, we would have one home game and one away against these team and the rest of the season filled up with the likes of Raith Rovers and Queen of the South - not for me


another angle worth looking at!
Good point John!

[iwasthere1972]

Sod all this faffing about with the formats of the Scottish leagues. This is where we want to be.

Arsenal
Aston Villa
Birmingham City
Blackburn Rovers
Bolton Wanderers
Burnley
Chelsea
Everton
Fulham
Hibernian FC
Hull City
Liverpool
Manchester City
Manchester United
Portsmouth
Stoke City
Sunderland
Tottenham Hotspur
West Ham United
Wigan Athletic

:thumbsup:

[Cameron1875]

It would significantly decrease the value of a season ticket with this league. Playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts four (twice at ER) times per season are games I really look forward too. With the new system, we would have one home game and one away against these team and the rest of the season filled up with the likes of Raith Rovers and Queen of the South - not for me


Aye but imagine the atmosphere for the only hibs v hearts game at easter road a season. Place would be rocking.:partyhibb:cool2:

[alphahibby]

Sod all this faffing about with the formats of the Scottish leagues. This is where we want to be.

Arsenal
Aston Villa
Birmingham City
Blackburn Rovers
Bolton Wanderers
Burnley
Chelsea
Everton
Fulham
Hibernian FC
Hull City
Liverpool
Manchester City
Manchester United
Portsmouth
Stoke City
Sunderland
Tottenham Hotspur
West Ham United
Wigan Athletic

:thumbsup:


great idea shame it wont happen

[MacBean]

Sod all this faffing about with the formats of the Scottish leagues. This is where we want to be.

Arsenal
Aston Villa
Birmingham City
Blackburn Rovers
Bolton Wanderers
Burnley
Chelsea
Everton
Fulham
Hibernian FC
Hull City
Liverpool
Manchester City
Manchester United
Portsmouth
Stoke City
Sunderland
Tottenham Hotspur
West Ham United
Wigan Athletic

:thumbsup:


Wolves punted cos they have a jambo :wink:

[MacBean]

Aye but imagine the atmosphere for the only hibs v hearts game at easter road a season. Place would be rocking.:partyhibb:cool2:


And of course we would have the funds to expand our stadium (Corners n all) since it will be bursting at the seams with this newly competitive league

[iwasthere1972]

Wolves punted cos they have a jambo :wink:

No. It's because they are last in the alphabet. :greengrin

[iwasthere1972]

And of course we would have the funds to expand our stadium (Corners n all) since it will be bursting at the seams with this newly competitive league

Some of our games proposed in the revamped league would only require the corners. :agree:

[MacBean]

Some of our games proposed in the revamped league would only require the corners. :agree:


touche :flamed:

[Regina Phalange]

I would have two 16 team senior divisions with a pyramid below that incorporating the juniors. 2 up, 2 down or maybe incorporate a relegation/promotion play off. Teams play each other once home and away giving a 30 game league season.

The shortfall in games is filled by having a group stage at the start of a revamped League cup. All 32 teams in groups of 4 organised regionally, playing home and away. This guarantees every team in the league structure 36 games, with decent attendances as well as all the ties will all be local. It would mean there would be still be 4 derbies a season as well as guaranteeing games like the Dundee derby every season even when they are in separate divisions.

That gives you the best of both worlds - you still get 4 games a season against teams you really want to play, but you get the freshness of having more variety in the other games.

[Hibbyradge]

Aye but imagine the atmosphere for the only hibs v hearts game at easter road a season. Place would be rocking.:partyhibb:cool2:

Aye.

Less rocking though for Hibs v ICT, QOS, Morton, Ross County etc etc.

I wonder how many would turn up for Ross County v QOS.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It would significantly decrease the value of a season ticket with this league. Playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts four (twice at ER) times per season are games I really look forward too. With the new system, we would have one home game and one away against these team and the rest of the season filled up with the likes of Raith Rovers and Queen of the South - not for me

Aye but the downside of that is that we see teams like Motherwell, St Mirren, Falkirk, Kilmarnock etc at least 3 times per season.

As someone else mentioned the 2 derbies/OF games per season would be more anticipated than they currently are.

[MacBean]

Aye.

Less rocking though for Hibs v ICT, QOS, Morton, Ross County etc etc.

I wonder how many would turn up for Ross County v QOS.


No more or less than at present!? :confused:

[Ritchie]

All this chat of The ugly sisters running away to Engerland or the need for a Scottish football shake up got me thinking of the various possibilities that we could have.

I looked around the top nations in Europe and their league formats. Most of them have 20 teams in the top division with 3 being relegated and 3 coming up from the division below. There is also a pyramid system in place in a lot of leagues, like Spain and of course England that work incredibly well.

Why not up here in Scotland!

we have far too many teams in the lower leagues to be competing across three divisions and for only one team to go down from the top division leaves little for those in the lower leagues to aspire to as one spot is a massive challenge!

Why not this kind of format!? All the teams are placed as they currently are in thier league standings (expect the junior teams).

Scottish Premier League
Rangers
Celtic
Hibernian
Dundee Utd
Motherwell
Aberdeen
St Mirren
Hearts
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Hamilton
Falkirk
Ross County
Dundee
Partick Thistle
Raith Rovers
Queen of the South
Inverness Caley Thistle
Dunfermline
Greenock Morton

Bottom three relegated. top three from League one promoted.

Scottish League One
Ayr
Airdrie United
Stirling
Brechin
Cowdenbeath
Alloa
Peterhead
East Fife
Dumbarton
Arbroath
Stenhousemuir
Clyde
East Stirling
Albion
Livingston
Berwick
Forfar
Annan Athletic
Queens Park
Stranraer
Elgin
Montrose

Bottom four relegated, two from two Junior divisions replace them

Scottish Non-League split into two Leagues of 16-20 (north & south / East & West)
Including the likes of:
Spartans
Tynecastle
Whitehill Welfare
Vale of Leithen
Preston Athletic
Lothian Thistle
Dalbeattie Star
Threave Rovers
Buckie Thistle
Brora Rangers
Cove Rangers
Deveronvale
Forres Mechanics
Inverurie Locos
Civil Service
Edinburgh City
Lewis United
Irvine Meadow
Pollock
Banks O'Dee

I know this is a bit farfetched and perhaps a bit too much thought has gone into this, but i would LOVE to see a serious shake up in Scotland and something like this would do the trick!

What are your thoughst, or do i deserve to be shot down!?

discuss...

i was talking to my mate about this before the killie game... would love to see it but it wont happen because there are too many people in this country who are scared of change and have no ambition.

they'd rather carry on with the current predictable set up and fight for 3rd! WOOPTY DOO!!

another thing id like to see is the CIS & the carling cup abolished to make way for a Bristish league cup. would add a bit excitement to what are dull cup competitions.

imagine an away tie against man utd, chelski, liverpool or arsenal....:greengrin

[bobbyhibs1983]

i agree , something has to be done, i do like the idea of a 20 team league as the o.p has stated , but to the people who are agaisnt it due to the fact that we would be playing much "lesser" teams so to speak then i would ask, would you support hibs playing rangers MORE than any other hibs game?


Or would you support hibs whoever we would be playing?

[sambajustice]

I think a big reason the crowds are so pap these days are because we are the playing the same teams so often!

imagine one game a season against celtic, rangers & hearts. It would sell out in a flash you could probably get about 20-25k at each of those games.

Would probably even be worth building a new stand if we knew we were going to fill it a lot of the time!

[craig1875]

For me it has to be either 10 teams or 20, that way you get to play each team at home as many times as away. how can it be fair to play a team at home once in a season but play them away from home 3 times, like what can currently happen? Might not sound like much but it could mean the difference between europe or not, or for some teams even just staying in the league.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think the league should be split according to the size of support the teams have. The Scottish League was founded to maximise revenue by ensuring that the clubs with the biggest support played each other regularly.

[Hibbyradge]

No more or less than at present!? :confused:

It could well be less than at present if, as would be likely, neither team were challenging at the top, or if there was nothing at stake later in the season.

Also remember that this would be the top league. The league which would define Scottish Football.

The league we would hope to sell to sponsors and TV broadcasters.

[MacBean]

It could well be less than at present if, as would be likely, neither team were challenging at the top, or if there was nothing at stake later in the season.

Also remember that this would be the top league. The league which would define Scottish Football.

The league we would hope to sell to sponsors and TV broadcasters.

You have a point there, however i would imagine that this sort of game would not be shown live on TV and would get minimal highlights, a bit like how Burnley vs West Ham wouldnt be shown live, and if it was a Dire 0-0 game, would be in the highlight reel near the end of the show where they show three or four games in quick succession.

Very rarely do we see Hamilton vs Kilmarnock live on ESPN. However i have noticed that Hamilton vs Hearts is on Sky in a few weeks! :dizzy:

It is quite sad to say that the Old Firm are the pulling power of our sponsorship deals and that will be the case in any sort of league formation, whether we played 39 teams once a season, 19 teams twice, or in the current format. Until someone breaks them over consecutive seasons or does extremely well in Europe for a couple of Seasons (past group stage of Europa league/ splits the OF and reaches the group stages of Champions league) then it is quite a sad stroy that the OF will be the main attraction in our league for any possible investors.

[iwasthere1972]

I think a big reason the crowds are so pap these days are because we are the playing the same teams so often!

imagine one game a season against celtic, rangers & hearts. It would sell out in a flash you could probably get about 20-25k at each of those games.
Would probably even be worth building a new stand if we knew we were going to fill it a lot of the time!

Not entirely true as we (and Hearts) have to finish in the top six to get another "stab" at Celtic, Rangers and Hearts. So going into the first home game of the season against those teams could be the only time we play them at home that season. No crystal ball.

[Tinyclothes]

I agree with the 20 team league. It will briong us in line with other leagues and we can do away with the stupid split as well. I think arguing that we would miss out on the extra old firm and jambo matches is a weak point as you should follow Hibs regardless of who we're playing and you're playing into the ugly sisters hands if you are giving them added importance.

[iwasthere1972]

I agree with the 20 team league. It will briong us in line with other leagues and we can do away with the stupid split as well. I think arguing that we would miss out on the extra old firm and jambo matches is a weak point as you should follow Hibs regardless of who we're playing and you're playing into the ugly sisters hands if you are giving them added importance.

Any TV money/sponsorship would then have to be split between 20 teams opposed to 12. More matches would have to be televised for us and other clubs to not lose out and I can't see SKY and ESPN wanting to cover too many matches not featuring the old firm.

Wish I knew the answer.

[Leith Green]

It would significantly decrease the value of a season ticket with this league. Playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts four (twice at ER) times per season are games I really look forward too. With the new system, we would have one home game and one away against these team and the rest of the season filled up with the likes of Raith Rovers and Queen of the South - not for me


Yeah but think about how frenzied these games would become,playing home and away just once a year would increase the atmosphere, also other teams would also look forward to playing Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen.. Our games against Aberdeen and United would also become a bigger fixture, I'm all for an 18-20 team set up, Probs never happen beacuse the old firm won't want it, less old firm games etc...

[MyJo]

The swedish league system would be ideal for scotland IMO including the timing of the season from march to october

[bingo70]

The swedish league system would be ideal for scotland IMO including the timing of the season from march to october

Don't know what the Swedish system is but if the old firm do leave the scottish league then moving the league to the summer should be one of the changes we should be looking at so we aren't competing with the premiership for TV space.

I also think comparing our set up with a country like Sweden makes far more sense than this constant need to compare ourselves with the best in the world like England and Spain.

[jgl07]

All this chat of The ugly sisters running away to Engerland or the need for a Scottish football shake up got me thinking of the various possibilities that we could have.

I looked around the top nations in Europe and their league formats. Most of them have 20 teams in the top division with 3 being relegated and 3 coming up from the division below. There is also a pyramid system in place in a lot of leagues, like Spain and of course England that work incredibly well.

Why not up here in Scotland!

we have far too many teams in the lower leagues to be competing across three divisions and for only one team to go down from the top division leaves little for those in the lower leagues to aspire to as one spot is a massive challenge!

Why not this kind of format!? All the teams are placed as they currently are in thier league standings (expect the junior teams).

Scottish Premier League
Rangers
Celtic
Hibernian
Dundee Utd
Motherwell
Aberdeen
St Mirren
Hearts
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Hamilton
Falkirk
Ross County
Dundee
Partick Thistle
Raith Rovers
Queen of the South
Inverness Caley Thistle
Dunfermline
Greenock Morton

Bottom three relegated. top three from League one promoted.

Scottish League One
Ayr
Airdrie United
Stirling
Brechin
Cowdenbeath
Alloa
Peterhead
East Fife
Dumbarton
Arbroath
Stenhousemuir
Clyde
East Stirling
Albion
Livingston
Berwick
Forfar
Annan Athletic
Queens Park
Stranraer
Elgin
Montrose

Bottom four relegated, two from two Junior divisions replace them

Scottish Non-League split into two Leagues of 16-20 (north & south / East & West)
Including the likes of:
Spartans
Tynecastle
Whitehill Welfare
Vale of Leithen
Preston Athletic
Lothian Thistle
Dalbeattie Star
Threave Rovers
Buckie Thistle
Brora Rangers
Cove Rangers
Deveronvale
Forres Mechanics
Inverurie Locos
Civil Service
Edinburgh City
Lewis United
Irvine Meadow
Pollock
Banks O'Dee

I know this is a bit farfetched and perhaps a bit too much thought has gone into this, but i would LOVE to see a serious shake up in Scotland and something like this would do the trick!

What are your thoughts, or do i deserve to be shot down!?

discuss...
I would go with two Divisions of 18 teams and a regionalized structure below that (East, West and Highlands).

The problem is that many teams from the lower Divisions have a SPL standard stadium (Dundee, Inverness, Partick, Dunfermline) but of those many don't currently have a decent team (Livingston, Queen's Park, Clyde).

Some have a decent team and/or potential support to sustain an SPL side but do not currently have a suitable stadium (Queen of the South, Morton, Ross County, Ayr?)

It would be easy to find six teams to make up the SPL to 18 in the current stadium standards were reduced.

Reduce the all seater capacity to say 4,000 in the initial case with the teams given time to expand to 5,000 or 6,000.

Bring in some sort of promotion relegation play-offs to maintain interest and reduce the problem of dead fixtures involving mid table teams.

[Keith_M]

Clubs in the SPL voting for less games against the OF every season is as likely as Turkeys voting for Christmas.

The league switched to 10 teams in 1975 because there were too many low key, low attendance games against the so-called lesser lights.

Funnily enough, though, it also coincided with Edinburgh derbies going from over 30,000 every game to attracting 15-20,000. I've often wondered if it was because it suddenly wasn't such a special occassion anymore, with at least four derbies guaranteed every season.

[Keith_M]

Reduce the all seater capacity to say 4,000 in the initial case with the teams given time to expand to 5,000 or 6,000.

Or do away with the requirement for All Seater Stadia completely. They could enforce a minimum percentage of Seating instead, e.g. at least 60% of capacity must be seats.

Better make sure it's done before the new East is up, though, so we can get in on the act. :greengrin

[Oranje39]

Scottish Premier League 18 teams
Hibernian
Rangers
Celtic
Dundee Utd
Motherwell
Aberdeen
St Mirren
Hearts
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Hamilton
Falkirk
Dundee
Partick Thistle
Inverness Caley Thistle
Dunfermline
Queen of the South
Raith Rovers

Scottish League One 12 teams
Ross County
Greenock Morton
Ayr
Airdrie United
Stirling
Brechin
Clyde
Livingston
Cowdenbeath
Alloa
Dumbarton
Arbroath

Scottish League Two 12 teams
East Fife
Stenhousemuir
East Stirling
Albion
Berwick
Forfar
Annan Athletic
Queens Park
Elgin
Peterhead
Stranraer
Montrose

Scottish Non-League split into two Leagues of 16-20 (north & south / East & West)
Including the likes of:
Spartans
Tynecastle
Whitehill Welfare
Vale of Leithen
Preston Athletic
Lothian Thistle
Dalbeattie Star
Threave Rovers
Buckie Thistle
Brora Rangers
Cove Rangers
Deveronvale
Forres Mechanics
Inverurie Locos
Civil Service
Edinburgh City
Lewis United
Irvine Meadow
Pollock
Banks O'Dee

I agree with what you are saying about a shake up 100%. I would have a top division of 18 teams with hibs for example playing other 17 teams twice to make 34 games. This would allow for a winter shutdown and less games being crammed in over a short space of time.

Division 1 and 2 should be 12 team leagues with 2 up and 2 down. The reason for this is that i feel just having SPL then league 1 is not enough. 3 leagues is better imo.

This means two teams from juniors replace 2 teams relegated from division 2

:top marks

[GreenPJ]

The swedish league system would be ideal for scotland IMO including the timing of the season from march to october

Interesting, I hadn't thought of this. Playing during the summer months when English, Spanish, Italian and German football is not playing may also allow us to get a decent TV deal for the product as SKY/ESPN don't have the exclusive rights to the big summer sporting events such as the Open or Wimbledon.

[ancient hibee]

The present situation is not ideal however it's obvious that many of you in favour of bigger leagues were not around when we had them.There were far too many mid table games of no consequence-for lots of teams the season was over in January-not going to win it-not going to get relegated.The fans voted with their feet.

[MacBean]

Clubs in the SPL voting for less games against the OF every season is as likely as Turkeys voting for Christmas.

The league switched to 10 teams in 1975 because there were too many low key, low attendance games against the so-called lesser lights.

Funnily enough, though, it also coincided with Edinburgh derbies going from over 30,000 every game to attracting 15-20,000. I've often wondered if it was because it suddenly wasn't such a special occassion anymore, with at least four derbies guaranteed every season.


We're only guarenteed 3 every Season, and if Hearts keep going the way they are then we'll only have three this season :wink:

[Jim Herriot]

My two cents. SPL, SFL, Highland League, Seniors, Juniors... bring them all into one pyramid structure. I reckon 16 teams is a good number. 30 games, leaving space for cup ties.


I suspect that teams in the non-league leagues get as bored with playing each other as those in the league leagues.


(The only complication is where teams relegated from the SFL go, to keep the numbers right.)



16 SPL (2 down)
16 SFL (2 up, 3 down)
16 North, 16 West, 16 East (1 up from each)

SPL - 12 from SPL + 4 from div 1
1 rangers
2 celtic
3 hearts
4 aberdeen
5 dundee utd
6 hibernian
7 motherwell
8 kilmarnock
9 hamilton
10 falkirk
11 st mirren
12 inverness ct
13 st johnstone
14 partick thistle
15 dunfermline
16 dundee

SFL - 5 from div 1 + all of div 2 + cowdenbeath
1 queen of the south
2 greenock morton
4 ross county
5 airdrie utd
6 clyde
7 raith rovers
8 ayr utd
9 brechin city
10 peterhead
11 stirling albion
12 east fife
13 arbroath
14 alloa
15 queens park
16 stranraer
cowdenbeath [2]

EAST - livingston + 3 from div 3 + 6 from east of scotland premier + 6 from SFJA East Region Super League
livingston
east stirling [3]
stenhousemuir [4]
berwick r [9]
whitehill welfare [EoS]
spartans [EoS]
lothian thistle [EoS]
civil service strollers [EoS]
tynecastle [EoS]
edinburgh city [EoS]
bonnyrigg rose [SJFA East]
camelon [SJFA East]
linlithgow rose [SJFA East]
kelty hearts [SJFA East]
bo'ness utd [SJFA East]
forfar west end [SJFA East]

WEST - 3 from div 3 + 4 from South of Scotland League + 9 from SJFA West Region Superleague
dumbarton [1]
annan [7]
albion rovers [8]
threave rovers [SoS]
dalbeattie star [SoS]
wigtown [SoS]
st cuthbert wanderers [SoS]
auchinleck talbot [SJFA West]
beith [SJFA West]
arthurlie [SJFA West]
pollock [SJFA West]
largs thistle [SJFA West]
petershill [SJFA West]
kilbirnie ladeside [SJFA West]
kirkintilloch rob roy [SJFA West]
irvine meadow [SJFA West]

NORTH - 3 from div 3 + 7 from Highland League + 6 from SJFA North Superleague
montrose [5]
forfar [6]
elgin city [10]
cove rangers [HFL]
deveronvale [HFL]
inverurie loco works [HFL]
keith [HFL]
wick academy [HFL]
buckie thistle [HFL]
fraserburgh [HFL]
banks o'dee [SJFA North]
sunnybank [SJFA North]
culter [SJFA North]
dyce juniors [SJFA North]
banchory st ternan [SJFA North]
longside [SJFA North]


(originally posted on http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=2130016 based on standings at that time. west league edited and livingston swapped with cowdenbeath)

[Don Giovanni]

I would have two 16 team senior divisions with a pyramid below that incorporating the juniors. 2 up, 2 down or maybe incorporate a relegation/promotion play off. Teams play each other once home and away giving a 30 game league season.

The shortfall in games is filled by having a group stage at the start of a revamped League cup. All 32 teams in groups of 4 organised regionally, playing home and away. This guarantees every team in the league structure 36 games, with decent attendances as well as all the ties will all be local. It would mean there would be still be 4 derbies a season as well as guaranteeing games like the Dundee derby every season even when they are in separate divisions.

That gives you the best of both worlds - you still get 4 games a season against teams you really want to play, but you get the freshness of having more variety in the other games.


:agree: This is exactly what I'd like to see.

I'd also have a 'Conference' league (probably 16 teams) below the top two divisions and regional leagues (East, West and Highland) incorporating the other Junior, Senior and Highland league sides below that.

[Crazyhorse]

The present situation is not ideal however it's obvious that many of you in favour of bigger leagues were not around when we had them.There were far too many mid table games of no consequence-for lots of teams the season was over in January-not going to win it-not going to get relegated.The fans voted with their feet.

That's a good point. But the present structure has reduced Scottish football to a boring 2 horse race with little hope of any winner outside of the bigots. Perhaps playoffs are the answer in an 18 team league. Bottom team is
relegated but next 4 places playoff to determine the other 2 to go down. At the top the top 2 are the top 2 but the next 4 play off
for the other euro spot. If we have more euro places
fine make the top 3 assured but place 4-7 playoff for euro spot. Most teams
will have something. To play for Right to the end of
the season.

[Wakeyhibee]

The present situation is not ideal however it's obvious that many of you in favour of bigger leagues were not around when we had them.There were far too many mid table games of no consequence-for lots of teams the season was over in January-not going to win it-not going to get relegated.The fans voted with their feet.

I remember the old set up just and remember the arguements at the time about meaningless games. Is Scotland the only league with this phenomenon?

During the same period nearly all leagues in europe have the same issue with mid table games and still do ok. Bar Germany which appears to be more open for the title all have the same top 2-3 vying for the title....same problem. All games outwith the OF are ultimately meaningless in the SPL in respects of the title.

Reasons for change....
The original 10 SPL was to maximise revenue for the best supported, it is not working even for the OF now due to TV money and a perceived poor product. Some of the teams that helped to cause an upset were getting relegated and promoted regularly and have dealt with the boom and bust so long they are no longer the clubs they were. Dundee, Partick etc no longer have a sustained presence and have lost 50% of their old support due to this, something a country short of competition can ill afford. A good Partick/Dundee side would attract support bigger than that of St Johnstone, Hamilton, ICT and possibly Motherwell etc....

The SPLs inception saw the first real challenge to the OF for over a decade with the least amount of supporters turning out in total even when it was doing what it was designed to do ie a closer competition for a short while, under similar hard financial conditions.

The extension to 12 was to try and expand a little and didn't work, too many games. The split was a second attempt to do this without 44 games and also to protect bigger clubs in a bad season from being relegated. It also has the potential to prevent mid table challenges from 7th for Europe after the split.

We've even had the farcical situation of no/blocked relegation/promotion.

The OF are still getting 48/57k for the visits of Hamilton/St Johnstone so why would they worry about the visits of Dundee/Partick. On the other hand Partick v Dundee today attracts 3000 max, that would be better if no different in a bigger SPL and they would benefit from the visit of the OF and "best of the rest" in terms of derbies.

St Mirren v Celtic drew 6000, Killie v Rangers was half empty 9000, St J v Rangers 7000 no longer full houses. The only teams to lose out maybe Hibs/Hearts/Sheep however we are no longer selling these out these games either. In a bigger league the OF would only have the chance of putting 6 points between themselves and any other team challenging creating a closer competition and sellouts would be more likely for their visits if less frequent hence the need for bigger stadia, only Aberdeen have a capacity over 20k

We are the instigaters of our own downfall which if not irriversably broken would still take over a decade to recover from with a change of set up. The alternative is to watch a slow death.

An 18 team league with eventually the top 6-8 vying for Europe with 4-5 places up for grabs. 2 down 2 up with playoffs for a futher place could tie up interest to the bottom 6 for the majority of the season. That leaves 4-6 teams for the old arguement of meaningless games as I said why is this only applicable to Scotland?

No CIS sections as that is pretty much a dead competition until the QF/SF rounds, leaving teams to concentrate on Europe where in the absence of good TV money should be where Scottish teams are looking to for a vital source of income. Possibly extend the Challenge Cup for smaller team interest????

A further league of 12-18 with regional/pyramid below all under one governing body responsible for the promotion/support of provincial teams.

Reasons for not doing it.......

TV Money - There would be no appetite for Hibs/Hearts etc to give up part of their their share.

Maybe a proposal for TV money to be shared as it stands with the new included teams content on the visits of bigger teams to start off.

Shame it wont happen until the OF leave (unlikely) or more likely clubs suffer so much with a total withdrawl of TV money they are forced to rethink. If we want to make the SPL/Scottish Football stronger it has more inclusive, competative, and ultimately marketable to TV and outside investment.

[NYHibby]

I don't see how adding 4 to 8 teams is going to make the league more competitive. If anything, it would make the league less competitive. The Old Firm would most likely not drop points against what is currently a mid table Div 1 team. However, other teams (being honest Hibs included) would drop a couple points against these teams during the course of the season. Adding additional teams would only ensure the OF finish 1-2. Average attendance would drop too. Who would want to see Hibs- Ross County? I'd rather see Falkirk a second time.

If you go to an 18 or 20 team SPL, the OF would probably actually leave rather than just making baseless threats every few years. Then we end up with the Welsh League North.

[NYHibby]

An 18 team league with eventually the top 6-8 vying for Europe with 4-5 places up for grabs. 2 down 2 up with playoffs for a futher place could tie up interest to the bottom 6 for the majority of the season. That leaves 4-6 teams for the old arguement of meaningless games as I said why is this only applicable to Scotland?

But having the split reduces those meaningless games. The top teams are competing for European spots. The middle teams are trying to make top 6, and the bottom team are trying to avoid relegation. This delays teams having meaningless games until a much later point in the season.

[Wakeyhibee]

But having the split reduces those meaningless games. The top teams are competing for European spots. The middle teams are trying to make top 6, and the bottom team are trying to avoid relegation. This delays teams having meaningless games until a much later point in the season.

Conversely we've recently had 4/5 euro places, it wouldn't stop 7th/8th competing for these places if only playing each other twice. Whilst 3rd and 4th may have the OF to play 7th/8th may be playing lower opposition in the run in and make it.

It could also prolong the league not stop it 5 games short for some.

74/75 adjusted for 3 point wins (note the Hibees)

Rangers 81
Hibernian 69
Celtic 65
Dundee 64
Aberdeen 57
Dundee 54
Ayr 50
Hearts 46
St Johns 45
M'well 47
Airdrie 42
Killie 39
Partick 40
D'barton 31
D'fermline 30
Clyde 28
Morton 28
Arbroath 22

Ayr in 7th technically still could have had a chance until up to 3 games to go. Bottom 5 would be fighting relegation/playoffs right up the last game. Middle 6 fighting for TV revenue if that proposal was adopted.

PS you would lose 4 OF/Edinburgh 'genuine' derbies and gain 4 Dundee/Glasgow 'genuine' ones increase local derbies Aberdeen v Dundee, Dundee v St Johns, St Mirren (although not in the league then) v Morton, Killie v Ayr, Motherwell/Hamilton v Airdrie/Clyde