Old Firm running scared?

[Thecat23]

As the title says,

Are the Old Firm wanting a move from the scottish game as soon as possible in case someone starts to split them? Because it can't be that the SPL isn't strong enough as both teams are struggling to beat most teams in this league!

What happens if we or Utd or anyone else started to split them every couple of yrs? would the EPL still want them? I think they know they have no cash and can't steal players for next to nothing now and maybe thinking we better move fast or be in real trouble.

[joe breezy]

I think they realise that their domination is under threat and the gap is narrowing :agree:

[blueisthecolour]

As the title says,

Are the Old Firm wanting a move from the scottish game as soon as possible in case someone starts to split them? Because it can't be that the SPL isn't strong enough as both teams are struggling to to beat most teams in this league!

What happens if we or Utd or anyone else started to split them every couple of yrs? would the EPL still want them? I think they know they have no cash and can't steal players for next to nothing now and maybe thinking we better move fast or be in real trouble.

All about money imo.

[Thecat23]

All about money imo.

Fair enough, but what would give Rangers or Celtic the right to move if they weren't the top 2?

[hibiedude]

As the title says,

Are the Old Firm wanting a move from the scottish game as soon as possible in case someone starts to split them? Because it can't be that the SPL isn't strong enough as both teams are struggling to beat most teams in this league!

What happens if we or Utd or anyone else started to split them every couple of yrs? would the EPL still want them? I think they know they have no cash and can't steal players for next to nothing now and maybe thinking we better move fast or be in real trouble.

Both old firm teams are struggling but please don't kid yourself, come the end of the season both teams will be 20+ points clear of the rest. This is all about money they see what the top EPL clubs earn and they want a slice of the English pie.

The old/firm also get a full house every time they play at home 50-55K how many other SPL clubs fill there own stadiums week in week out.

[blueisthecolour]

Fair enough, but what would give Rangers or Celtic the right to move if they weren't the top 2?

Im not saying we have the right to move, but imo what would make us and them attractive to other leagues would be our fan base, just the amount of fans home and abroad, the huge number of travelling fans, I know folk on here will look at the down side of this ie bigotry ect, the likes of the english premiership don't need us just now as they have one of the best leagues if not the best in the world just now, the lower end of that league defo don't want us as someone would have to make way and turkeys don't vote for christmas.

The european league would be the best chance of it happening with the like of ajax psv ect but that would put an end to us in the champions league so that sort of league is not the anwser.

I don't think we are going anywhere tbh but every couple of years this is going to pop up and the debate will rumble on.

[steviehfc]

All about money imo.When is it ever about anything else with the bigot brothers? :confused:

[Thecat23]

Both old firm teams are struggling but please don't kid yourself, come the end of the season both teams will be 20+ points clear of the rest. This is all about money they see what the top EPL clubs earn and they want a slice of the English pie.

I'll be honest they will still prob finish 1st and 2nd but i really don't think it will be as much as 20+ points. Not if they play the way they are playing.

Then again the rest might fall away too so maybe you could be right. Either way i still think they are bricking it. :devil:

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I think they realise that their domination is under threat and the gap is narrowing :agree:

:agree: The EPL dont want them. The Dutch FA - what Atlantic League? Former players and Chairmen are saying it wont happen.

Either someone is telling porkies or the OF are clutching at straws.

For my money they appear to be talking up their prospects for the audience - their supporters. Supporters for whom the penny is finally dropping - hard, meagre times ahead. They missed the boat that was never coming anyway.

Signs of Desperadoes. So desperate to hurt the very league they play in to scare off potential investors who may be interested in catching them at a weak moment.

Imagine Vlads dosh, wisely spent with a good manager in place? As with all good comedy its about timing though and Vlad got it right didn't he.

[Thecat23]

Im not saying we have the right to move, but imo what would make us and them attractive to other leagues would be our fan base, just the amount of fans home and abroad, the huge number of travelling fans, I know folk on here will look at the down side of this ie bigotry ect, the likes of the english premiership don't need us just now as they have one of the best leagues if not the best in the world just now, the lower end of that league defo don't want us as someone would have to make way and turkeys don't vote for christmas.

The european league would be the best chance of it happening with the like of ajax psv ect but that would put an end to us in the champions league so that sort of league is not the anwser.

I don't think we are going anywhere tbh but every couple of years this is going to pop up and the debate will rumble on.


Some good points in there if i'm honest. Think your spot on with the European league it would end the CL for you lot. Another note do you think if you were to go straight into the EPL for whatever reason you could survive the first season? Newcastle huge fan base had some good players but didn't stop them going down. Plus i don't think the squads you or Celtic have will be strong enough, or got experience would you be happy to end up playing Championship football for a couple of years as that could happen?

[hibiedude]

I'll be honest they will still prob finish 1st and 2nd but i really don't think it will be as much as 20+ points. Not if they play the way they are playing.

Then again the rest might fall away too so maybe you could be right. Either way i still think they are bricking it. :devil:

As said they are not playing well but they are not losing games, if you look at our own position we are not consistent enough to really give the forces of darkness a fright. Hearts can't buy a win, United and Aberdeen are in the same position as us and you can forget the rest.

[Hibercelona]

All about money imo.

And what good is making lots more money when you are coming up against the likes of Man utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal & Aston Villa? :confused:

You could be making hundreds times more down there.... but up against teams like them.... you's are still going to be pretty dire.

[lucky]

Im not saying we have the right to move, but imo what would make us and them attractive to other leagues would be our fan base, just the amount of fans home and abroad, the huge number of travelling fans, I know folk on here will look at the down side of this ie bigotry ect, the likes of the english premiership don't need us just now as they have one of the best leagues if not the best in the world just now, the lower end of that league defo don't want us as someone would have to make way and turkeys don't vote for christmas.

The european league would be the best chance of it happening with the like of ajax psv ect but that would put an end to us in the champions league so that sort of league is not the anwser.

I don't think we are going anywhere tbh but every couple of years this is going to pop up and the debate will rumble on.

EPL don't allow a large travelling support as most grounds are sold out by the home team. The North Atlantic league is summed up well today in a article in the Sunday Mail in Gordon Waddlle's column.

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/opinion/columnists/gordon-waddell/2009/10/18/away-the-lads-not-any-more-78057-21756404/

[blueisthecolour]

Some good points in there if i'm honest. Think your spot on with the European league it would end the CL for you lot. Another note do you think if you were to go straight into the EPL for whatever reason you could survive the first season? Newcastle huge fan base had some good players but didn't stop them going down. Plus i don't think the squads you or Celtic have will be strong enough, or got experience would you be happy to end up playing Championship football for a couple of years as that could happen?

If we went down there with the players we have now we would be lucky to do anything in the championship never mind EPL, I think we would attract some of the best players in the world if we where in the EPL we would have the money to buy and pay the wages, but it would take time to win it it.

Newcastle have a big fan base in England but don't think the world, where ever I have been in the world you always see rangers and celtic tops everywhere, I think that would make a difference to what the clubs could do merchandise wise, creating plenty of cash.

[blueisthecolour]

And what good is making lots more money when you are coming up against the likes of Man utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal & Aston Villa? :confused:

You could be making hundreds times more down there.... but up against teams like them.... you's are still going to be pretty dire.

We would have the money to attract the player man utd chelsea ect attract, lets be honest the likes of torres ect would maybe join rangers and celtic if in the epl, theres not a chance players like that would come to the spl, I think years gone by have proved we can attract big name players gazza laudrup, larrson but in those days we had good money to pay.

[Monts]

We would have the money to attract the player man utd chelsea ect attract, lets be honest the likes of torres ect would maybe join rangers and celtic if in the epl, theres not a chance players like that would come to the spl, I think years gone by have proved we can attract big name players gazza laudrup, larrson but in those days we had good money to pay.

The only way players like Torres would go to a team like rangers is if they were playing in the Champions League. The extra money made from the premiership is not going to push out Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or even Man city.
Therefore, there is no chance of either celtic or rangers, being any kind of real success down south.
Aston Villa size club at best :agree:

[blueisthecolour]

The only way players like Torres would go to a team like rangers is if they were playing in the Champions League. The extra money made from the premiership is not going to push out Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or even Man city.
Therefore, there is no chance of either celtic or rangers, being any kind of real success down south.
Aston Villa size club at best :agree:

I disagree but then it's all about opinions, I don't think we will ever find out though.

[Thecat23]

If we went down there with the players we have now we would be lucky to do anything in the championship never mind EPL, I think we would attract some of the best players in the world if we where in the EPL we would have the money to buy and pay the wages, but it would take time to win it it.

Newcastle have a big fan base in England but don't think the world, where ever I have been in the world you always see rangers and celtic tops everywhere, I think that would make a difference to what the clubs could do merchandise wise, creating plenty of cash.

I think you could play in the EPL for 100 years but i don't think you would break the likes of Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool Man City, Chelsea etc.. Rangers and Celtic as another post said would be avarage at best.

[Monts]

I disagree but then it's all about opinions, I don't think we will ever find out though.

Which part do you disagree with?

Do you think you could attract world class players without being guaranteed champions league football?

Or do you think you would oust the richest clubs in the world?

[steviehfc]

EPL don't allow a large travelling support as most grounds are sold out by the home team. The North Atlantic league is summed up well today in a article in the Sunday Mail in Gordon Waddlle's column.

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/opinion/columnists/gordon-waddell/2009/10/18/away-the-lads-not-any-more-78057-21756404/:agree: I found myself agreeing with everything that Gordon Waddell said in that article...God, i feel dirty saying that.

[Twa Cairpets]

There are two reasons why the OF have a big fan base.

1) Bigotry/Religion. Undeniable, and if marginally improved from the old situation, is still - amongst the majority of paying punters at least - hugely prevalent, if only for 90 minutes.

2) Unparalled success. Rangers and celtic win just about everything domestically, and always have. Certain types of people are attracted by this, and therefore they have massive appeal. Give it two years when the novelty wears off, and is Fulham really are appealling prospect than Hibs? Is Wigan going to draw more of a crowd than Hearts? Give these two vile institutions two years of being trophy free and the crowds will be like snow off a dyke.

Morally reprehensible, supported by the most loathsome specimens of mankind, and with an arrogance born of being big fish in small pond, the only benefit of seeing them move to the EPL would be to see them and their moronic fanbase squirm, slaver and suffer.

[blackpoolhibs]

We would have the money to attract the player man utd chelsea ect attract, lets be honest the likes of torres ect would maybe join rangers and celtic if in the epl, theres not a chance players like that would come to the spl, I think years gone by have proved we can attract big name players gazza laudrup, larrson but in those days we had good money to pay.

Lets be honest.:faf: Why would any world class player join rantic without european football? Gazz, laudrup and larrson were not wanted by the top english clubs. Larrson was an unknown playing in holland i think, gazza was an injured crock, nobody would take a risk on apart from you lot, and laudrup failed when he went to chelsea. If you want honesty, there it is.:faf:

[Keith_M]

I hope the OP doesn't think like those Hawrts fans who suddenly felt they were now one of the top three, and suddenly different to the rest.

OK, the league has gone well so far, with Hibs still two points from the top, but let's not kid ourselves here. Celtc, and to a lesser extent Rankers, can still pay money for players that Hibs and the rest can only dream of. Let's just enjoy the good times but try not to get too carried away.


Oh and can we end the thread hijack please. There have been too many threads on the OF leaving subject as it is..........

[MrSmith]

We would have the money to attract the player man utd chelsea ect attract, lets be honest the likes of torres ect would maybe join rangers and celtic if in the epl, theres not a chance players like that would come to the spl, I think years gone by have proved we can attract big name players gazza laudrup, larrson but in those days we had good money to pay.

Oh, now let me think about that!

For arguments sake lets say I'm a world class footballer, the OF are playing in the EPL and I have the choice of the following suitors:

Rangers
Celtic
Man Utd.
Liverpool
Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Tottenham Hotspur
Aston Villa

etc, etc....

Now how would I make my decision? Would it be based on the following criteria?

Location
Wage
CL Football
Europa Football
Cup Competition

It's a real difficult decision eh! Glasgow is a fantastic city full of culture, knife crime, gangsters and sectarianism; I'll get a good wedge in Glasgow, no CL football for at least two seasons, either mid to bottom of EPL1 or middle of EPL 2, certainly wouldn't get the exposure I would want...and, well, London, Manchester, Liverpool or Glasgow?

Really difficult decision!!

I want them to go and realise their monetary dream and see if they can be the best of British - I find this hilarious in Celtics case! - European Champs all the things they were going to do when the SPL was miles better than the old English Division 1....

ta ta :bye:

[blueisthecolour]

Which part do you disagree with?

Do you think you could attract world class players without being guaranteed champions league football?

Or do you think you would oust the richest clubs in the world?
Change oust to compete and imo after a few years champions league football would come, remember you don't have to be champions or even 2nd to get in to champions league.

I think if we got in to the EPL there would be serious bidders to take over our clubs, not a good thing to have these arabs ect buying all the clubs but thats the way things are nowadays.

[blueisthecolour]

Oh, now let me think about that!

For arguments sake lets say I'm a world class footballer, the OF are playing in the EPL and I have the choice of the following suitors:

Rangers
Celtic
Man Utd.
Liverpool
Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Tottenham Hotspur
Aston Villa

etc, etc....

Now how would I make my decision? Would it be based on the following creiteria?

Location
Wage
CL Football
Europa Football
Cup Competition

It's a real difficult decision eh! Glasgow is a fantastic city full of culture, knife crime, gangsters and sectarianism; I'll get a good wedge in Glasgow, no CL football for at least two seasons, either mid to bottom of EPL1 or middle of EPL 2, certainly wouldn't get the exposure I would want...and, well, London, Manchester, Liverpool or Glasgow?

Really difficult decision!!

I want them to go and realise their monetary dream and see if they can be the best of British - I find this hilarious in Celtics case! - European Champs all the things they were going to do when the SPL was miles better than the old English Division 1....

ta ta :bye:
There's no knife crime in these citys then:confused:

I have said itwould take time, not expecting it to happen straight away.

Please note these are my views IF it where to happen which I DON'T think it will.

[Hibercelona]

I can see it now.... Torres has the choice to be at clubs Like Chelsea, Barcealona & AC Millan.... (All clubs that I might add that have every chance of winning the Champions League, not just qualify for it)

But no...

Torres will of course hop over to Ibrox, a team that will never even qualify for the Champions League or the Uefa Cup... with fans that shout abuse for 90 minutes and spit at away fans... without even actually watching the game.

I can see it now....

Big round of applause for big mr bluenose here for putting us all in our place. :applause:

Torres will of course be followed by the likes of Ronaldinho, Shevchenko and Lionel Messi.









Away and jog off yer mince pies :bye:

[blackpoolhibs]

Which part do you disagree with?

Do you think you could attract world class players without being guaranteed champions league football?

Or do you think you would oust the richest clubs in the world?
Change oust to compete and imo after a few years champions league football would come, remember you don't have to be champions or even 2nd to get in to champions league.

I think if we got in to the EPL there would be serious bidders to take over our clubs, not a good thing to have these arabs ect buying all the clubs but thats the way things are nowadays.

So your post is all based on guesswork. And of course these arabs would be the richest arabs in the world. How silly, and all this would happen in a couple of years too.:yawn:

[blueisthecolour]

[QUOTE=blueisthecolour;2209502]

So your post is all based on guesswork. And of course these arabs would be the richest arabs in the world. How silly, and all this would happen in a couple of years too.:yawn:

Correct the same as you opinion is guesswork:wink:

[blackpoolhibs]

[QUOTE=blackpoolhibs;2209515]

Correct the same as you opinion is guesswork:wink:

Well at least thats cleared up. Could you maybe guess what the rest of the EPL would be doing, while you and your filthy lot were planning this world domination?

[MrSmith]

Yes there is knife crime in these other cities but nowhere near the level it currently is in Glasgow!

Ask the great and bold Strathclyde police for there stats - it makes grim reading!!

The only way world class players will go to either of the OF is if they are offered over £200k per week - thats it! anything else they will just go to other EPL clubs!

It's a no go on all fronts for the Old Firm, no-0ne wants them! But, the most disappointing thing for me is the fact that the other ten SPL clubs haven't acted on this and told them to get ti fu....:bye:

[blueisthecolour]

Yes there is knife crime in these other cities but nowhere near the level it currently is in Glasgow!


Thats because they use guns now.

Ask the great and bold Strathclyde police for there stats - it makes grim reading!!

The only way world class players will go to either of the OF is if they are offered over £200k per week - thats it! anything else they will just go to other EPL clubs!

It's a no go on all fronts for the Old Firm, no-0ne wants them! But, the most disappointing thing for me is the fact that the other ten SPL clubs haven't acted on this and told them to get ti fu....:bye:


I wonder why

[WindyMiller]

Which part do you disagree with?

Do you think you could attract world class players without being guaranteed champions league football?

Or do you think you would oust the richest clubs in the world?
Change oust to compete and imo after a few years champions league football would come, remember you don't have to be champions or even 2nd to get in to champions league.

I think if we got in to the EPL there would be serious bidders to take over our clubs, not a good thing to have these arabs ect buying all the clubs but thats the way things are nowadays.

First and foremost any success would be mostly down to income. Only two teams have a chance at the moment of winning the EPL.
Then we have Man.City starting to flex their muscles and buy big.
In a year or 2 Arsenal will have reduced their mortgage payments and,due to their 60k stadium, be in a better position to compete.
Liverpool, with their huge worlwide income, will always be there or there-abouts.
IMO it would take the OF 5-10 years to get anywhere near these teams, provided their glory-hunting fans stuck by them.

[blackpoolhibs]

[QUOTE=blueisthecolour;2209502]

First and foremost any success would be mostly down to income. Only two teams have a chance at the moment of winning the EPL.
Then we have Man.City starting to flex their muscles and buy big.
In a year or 2 Arsenal will have reduced their mortgage payments and,due to their 60k stadium, be in a better position to compete.
Liverpool, with their huge worlwide income, will always be there or there-abouts.
IMO it would take the OF 5-10 years to get anywhere near these teams, provided their glory-hunting fans stuck by them.

And there you have the $6m question. Look how they desert the club when they are not winning the league every season. And ask yourself this, how many would still be going if they had not won the league, and only won 3 or 4 cups in 50 years?

[Jack]

David Murray couldn't get anyone to buy him out for years and there's still no sign, Celtc haven't had a big bucks investor for years. Why do you think that is?
Nobody with any sense wants to be associated with you lot anymore, you're bad news, your filth, you're dead men treading water.
A move to the EPL might bring in some investment but too many people now know you for what you really are. TROUBLE

[bobbyhibs1983]

A li off topic but all this talk about rangers and celtic being in the top league in england, how the heck will that work? i mean just now 3 teams get releagated from there and 3 teams get premonted from the championship, how can they join?


If they wanna join i think they do it from bottom's up and start at the bottom of the english leauges you know?

[blueisthecolour]

David Murray couldn't get anyone to buy him out for years and there's still no sign, Celtc haven't had a big bucks investor for years. Why do you think that is?
Nobody with any sense wants to be associated with you lot anymore, you're bad news, your filth, you're dead men treading water.
A move to the EPL might bring in some investment but too many people now know you for what you really are. TROUBLE

Possibly because we play in the spl:wink:

[blueisthecolour]

A li off topic but all this talk about rangers and celtic being in the top league in england, how the heck will that work? i mean just now 3 teams get releagated from there and 3 teams get premonted from the championship, how can they join?


If they wanna join i think they do it from bottom's up and start at the bottom of the english leauges you know?

The thing we all agree on is it won't happen, this was a what if.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Possibly because we play in the spl:wink:

Nobody wants you. Noboby in Scotland, nobody in England..... Shower of bigots the two old firm clubs..... Best if both were not in operation.......:bye:

[MrSmith]

David Murray couldn't get anyone to buy him out for years and there's still no sign, Celtc haven't had a big bucks investor for years. Why do you think that is?
Nobody with any sense wants to be associated with you lot anymore, you're bad news, your filth, you're dead men treading water.
A move to the EPL might bring in some investment but too many people now know you for what you really are. TROUBLE


Sorry mate, don't think thats very fair! Blueisthecolour has been a no bad lad on here.

I think the problem with Rangers is...they are still around, in real terms, £60mil in debt - dont where the rest disappeared?? - and by the time the debt is paid for and Murray gets his cash how much of a potential investors money would be left? It would take an investor with money in the region of at least £300mil before they even started!

So no-one interested then? :hmmm:





























exactly no-one! :bitchy: :dummytit: :offski:

[blueisthecolour]

Nobody wants you. Noboby in Scotland, nobody in England..... Shower of bigots the two old firm clubs..... Best if both were not in operation.......:bye:

You haven't heard the dundee utd chairmen interview then, he still wants us.

[Baldy Foghorn]

You haven't heard the dundee utd chairmen interview then, he still wants us.

Why anyone would want the old firm anymore confuses me.... They are no longer a big draw, no more the big teams that they used to be, they are both coming back in terms of standard to the rest of the pack, and their "great supporters" are beginning to realise this, as full houses are no longer a guarantee........

Well past their sell by dates......

The only thing that both clubs profit from is sectarianism IMO

[HibbyAndy]

We perhaps need to accept that the odd firm are still a draw. our next home game is sold out, still a catagory A game.

What we have to do is work out a strategy to flourish without them. That's not to say I believe they will be accepted into another league, I just feel it would be prudent to have plan in place that does not include the odd firm.



Find that very hard to believe.

[Baldy Foghorn]

We perhaps need to accept that the odd firm are still a draw. our next home game is sold out, still a catagory A game.

What we have to do is work out a strategy to flourish without them. That's not to say I believe they will be accepted into another league, I just feel it would be prudent to have plan in place that does not include the odd firm.

Our next Cat A ticket home match cant be sold out as tickets are not on sale yet???????

[ancient hibee]

Celtic have one of the richest men in the world behind them-it all depends on whether the will is there.There is constant whining about not being able to compete financially with Championship clubs.With the possible exception of Newcastle no Championship club has income anywhere near either of the OF.

[blueisthecolour]

Why anyone would want the old firm anymore confuses me.... They are no longer a big draw, no more the big teams that they used to be, they are both coming back in terms of standard to the rest of the pack, and their "great supporters" are beginning to realise this, as full houses are no longer a guarantee........

Well past their sell by dates......

The only thing that both clubs profit from is sectarianism IMO

Like it or not, without the old firm things imo would be bad for the rest of the spl, clubs don't like to admit it but they rely on cash from visits of old firm fans.

[Thecat23]

I hope the OP doesn't think like those Hawrts fans who suddenly felt they were now one of the top three, and suddenly different to the rest.

OK, the league has gone well so far, with Hibs still two points from the top, but let's not kid ourselves here. Celtc, and to a lesser extent Rankers, can still pay money for players that Hibs and the rest can only dream of. Let's just enjoy the good times but try not to get too carried away.


Oh and can we end the thread hijack please. There have been too many threads on the OF leaving subject as it is..........

Not at all, i'm simply asking what if this happened? not saying Hibs will split them but you never know?

[Baldy Foghorn]

Like it or not, without the old firm things imo would be bad for the rest of the spl, clubs don't like to admit it but they rely on cash from visits of old firm fans.

Not sure how much extra revenue is made, as you have to take into account extra policing and security. I will wager it is not a great deal more money taken in against OF than other clubs with bigger gates.

IMO the league would be much more competitive, and more Family friendly, not have to listen to the religious/sectarian offerings from the evil twins......

The old firm outwith their cocoon, are hated by majority of the others...........

[Ringothedog]

Like it or not, without the old firm things imo would be bad for the rest of the spl, clubs don't like to admit it but they rely on cash from visits of old firm fans.

So we rely on 16000 tickets being sold to the OF to survive ? No chance

Thats less than 1000 people of our average gate, a successful Hibs team would easily exceed that figure if we were challenging for trophies. You guys are so far up your own erses that you actually believe that we need you. Please leave....oh I forgot nobody wants you!!

[Thecat23]

for me if your team has a chance of winning the league or most games then you would sell out week in week out. Look at the yams, they packed out the PBS when they were winning each week. Without the old firm the league would be tight and fans would come back knowing their team have a chance of winning something.

[blueisthecolour]

So we rely on 16000 tickets being sold to the OF to survive ? No chance

Thats less than 1000 people of our average gate, a successful Hibs team would easily exceed that figure if we were challenging for trophies. You guys are so far up your own erses that you actually believe that we need you. Please leave....oh I forgot nobody wants you!!

I didn't say to survive, but it could make the difference in a player being getting a new contract at some clubs.

My points are based on most spl clubs not just hibs.

[blueisthecolour]

for me if your team has a chance of winning the league or most games then you would sell out week in week out. Look at the yams, they packed out the PBS when they were winning each week. Without the old firm the league would be tight and fans would come back knowing their team have a chance of winning something.

Be honest, what sort of cash would tv companys offer without rangers and celtic?

[Ringothedog]

I didn't say to survive, but it could make the difference in a player being getting a new contract at some clubs.

My points are based on most spl clubs not just hibs.


There would be no difference to the teams left if you did leave. The away supports of Hibs,hearts and Aberdeen would increase therefore negating any loss from OF fans. imho of course.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Be honest, what sort of cash would tv companys offer without rangers and celtic?

The evil twins get the majority of TV money anyway whilst the rest are left scrapping for the morsels

[blueisthecolour]

The evil twins get the majority of TV money anyway whilst the rest are left scrapping for the morsels

Do you think you would get more if we left then?

[erskine-hibby]

Both old firm teams are struggling but please don't kid yourself, come the end of the season both teams will be 20+ points clear of the rest. This is all about money they see what the top EPL clubs earn and they want a slice of the English pie.

The old/firm also get a full house every time they play at home 50-55K how many other SPL clubs fill there own stadiums week in week out.

I don't think they are filling their grounds each week, infact i think they are struggling in that respect. If they cannot fill the grounds for crucial European games it just goes to show that.
The gulf between them and the likes of us, UTD, herts etc. is getting smaller and the fans don't like it...the closer the gap, the smaller the crowds.
Long may it continue IMHO:agree:

[blueisthecolour]

I don't think they are filling their grounds each week, infact i think they are struggling in that respect. If they cannot fill the grounds for crucial European games it just goes to show that.
The gulf between them and the likes of us, UTD, herts etc. is getting smaller and the fans don't like it...the closer the gap, the smaller the crowds.
Long may it continue IMHO:agree:

I think the price had something to do with that.

[Hibercelona]

Be honest, what sort of cash would tv companys offer without rangers and celtic?

Rangers get so much coverage because they are at the top of the SPL all the time. They also have a huge fan base because they are at the top all the time.

If the OF were to leave the SPL (which I seriously doubt).... it would only be a matter of time until another couple of teams grew in popularity...

A lot of people think that the SPL would lose all of its popularity... but I don't believe that would be the case.

Other teams would be qualifying for the Champions League and Uefa... which means more cash for them to spend on splashing out on more quality players... which will then increase ticket sales.... which will then gain new media interest.

All it takes is one trigger...to trigger everything else off.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Do you think you would get more if we left then?

no but would not get a great deal less though

[Ringothedog]

Do you think you would get more if we left then?

Absolutely not, but even if the tv money halved it would be more evenly distributed so the loss would be less. You guys take about a third of what is on offer from the current deals anyway

[I Love Lamp]

I was reading Four Four Two last week in which Gordon Strachan now has a column. I was slightly confused by his discussion about the SPL where he says the reason there is no excitement is that you play all of the teams at least four times.

Yet it is the OF who don't want more teams in the SPL because it would reduce the number of OF games.

Surely more teams would mean there was more of a league to speak of - you could easily make a league of 16 by inviting Partick, ICT, Dundee and Dunfermline. The OF make the league cack for their own selfish reasons and then want to leave because it is cack.

It's like someone urinating in their soup in a restaurant and then complaining that it tastes like p**h.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I was reading Four Four Two last week in which Gordon Strachan now has a column. I was slightly confused by his discussion about the SPL where he says the reason there is no excitement is that you play all of the teams at least four times.

Yet it is the OF who don't want more teams in the SPL because it would reduce the number of OF games.

Surely more teams would mean there was more of a league to speak of - you could easily make a league of 16 by inviting Partick, ICT, Dundee and Dunfermline. The OF make the league cack for their own selfish reasons and then want to leave because it is cack.

It's like someone urinating in their soup in a restaurant and then complaining that it tastes like p**h.

Haha I love your summation......:thumbsup:

[erskine-hibby]

I think the price had something to do with that.

Possibly so, but there have been gaps, some pretty large, at both Ibrox and Parkhead this season and not just at European games. It could be because of the financial climate at the moment, but I rather think it is more to do with the fact that the fans aren't getting what they want i.e. wins week in, week out. For too long have we been told there is not enough competition in the SPL for the infirm, but when the gap narrows the fans stay away and the clubs make the "We need a bigger stage" statement.

[Ringothedog]

If I was to change Scottish Football I would have a 16 team league playing each other twice.if allowed I would also change back to 2 points for a win. Why ?

1) the potential loss of points to the OF reduces from 24 to 8

2) More competitive league means bigger crowds

3) More chance of clubs outside the old firm challenging for the league


But I have more chance of winning the lottery than this happening. It would be a bit like turkeys(the OF) voting for christmas. A bit like clubs in England allowing them into the EPL.

[blueisthecolour]

Possibly so, but there have been gaps, some pretty large, at both Ibrox and Parkhead this season and not just at European games. It could be because of the financial climate at the moment, but I rather think it is more to do with the fact that the fans aren't getting what they want i.e. wins week in, week out. For too long have we been told there is not enough competition in the SPL for the infirm, but when the gap narrows the fans stay away and the clubs make the "We need a bigger stage" statement.

Fair point, I think the financial climate has a big part to do with it, I don't think it 's because we don't always win, it's more to do with the dross football we are watching week in week out, I would say we played great 2nd half of stuttgart game and played well in parts against celtic, but tbh apart from those games I can't remember leaving a game and saying that was excellent entertainment, sometimes it's good to see teams like hibs coming and having a go and playing nice football as long as they score one less goal than us:wink:

[The_Sauz]

If Rangers and Celtic were to join a North Atlantic league, what would they benefit from it:

Extra TV cash....Yes
Bigger home gates......Nope
Champions League Money......Nope
Europa League Money.....Nope
Winning Cups or league titles evrey year.....Nope
Supporters having to pay more from home games....Yes
Supporters having to pay more for away games....Yes
Brining in top class players..........Nope


I believe (no..I'm not a Yam :greengrin) that a North Atlantic league would be made up with third rate European teams,who like Celtic & Rangers, fail in Europe most seasons :agree:

[blueisthecolour]

If Rangers and Celtic were to join a North Atlantic league, what would they benefit from it:

Extra TV cash....Yes
Bigger home gates......Nope
Champions League Money......Nope
Europa League Money.....Nope
Winning Cups or league titles evrey year.....Nope
Supporters having to pay more from home games....Yes
Supporters having to pay more for away games....Yes
Brining in top class players..........Nope


I believe (no..I'm not a Yam :greengrin) that a North Atlantic league would be made up with third rate European teams,who like Celtic & Rangers, fail in Europe most seasons :agree:

Can't really disagree with what you say

[Phil MaGlass]

IMO if they do,do us all a favour and bu99er off tae england, I think Celtic would (after 2-3 seasons) find themselves in the top 6. They have a worldwide fanbase a massive stadium and would sell out week in week out. Where as, der bun would, again, IMO struggle. and as we all know are not that LOYAL a supporter that they would have you believe,maybe 1st division material or bottom of the Premier at most. I relish the day they leave us to OUR game, to OUR football, to OUR bigot free saturdays. Who is to say Scottish fitba will suffer, it cant get any worse than what it has been in the last few years,this year being a bit of an exception.

[blaikie]

They wont go down south, They never will due to the simple fact ..... they are NOT English :agree: The old firm like it or not are staying in Scotland for a very long time :cool2:

[blueisthecolour]

They wont go down south, They never will due to the simple fact ..... they are NOT English :agree: The old firm like it or not are staying in Scotland for a very long time :cool2:

I don't think we will go to England but the reason you give, what about cardiff and Swansea.

[crewetollhibee]

Celtic can't score (again!) and Rangers celebrate a late winner against the newly promoted Sainties like it was the CL Final. Aye they are ready for the English Prem right enough !!!

[blaikie]

I don't think we will go to England but the reason you give, what about cardiff and Swansea.
Look at the history of both Swansea and Cardiff they have been in the English football league system for over 80 years. And if I'm correct didn't they reject the welsh football system when it was formed?

[blueisthecolour]

Celtic can't score (again!) and Rangers celebrate a late winner against the newly promoted Sainties like it was the CL Final. Aye they are ready for the English Prem right enough !!!

I don't think ANYONE has said we are ready for England, it's what the cash could do for clubs like ours if we got to go.

[blueisthecolour]

Look at the history of both Swansea and Cardiff they have been in the English football league system for over 80 years. And if I'm correct didn't they reject the welsh football system when it was formed?

Im not sure of their history mate, just pointing out they are not english clubs

[blaikie]

Im not sure of their history mate, just pointing out they are not english clubs
They both have a English connection right back to the roots of each club. So the idea of Celtic and Rangers Forging English roots to make a few extra quid is crazy talk by most.

[crewetollhibee]

I don't think ANYONE has said we are ready for England, it's what the cash could do for clubs like ours if we got to go.
As a previous poster said it's never going to happen. Why wont you two just grasp the nettle and accept that the way forward is to develop your own talent, get decent managers in place and try to emulate Auxerre, Rosenborg and other perennial CL qualifiers who regulary punch above their weight ? Oh no I forgot; that will take time wont it ? You lot are the football equivalent of the i-pod generation. You hit the buffers financially and hey presto ! you want to go to England - the land of milk and honey. Pathetic.

[blueisthecolour]

As a previous poster said it's never going to happen. Why wont you two just grasp the nettle and accept that the way forward is to develop your own talent, get decent managers in place and try to emulate Auxerre, Rosenborg and other perennial CL qualifiers who regulary punch above their weight ? Oh no I forgot; that will take time wont it ? You lot are the football equivalent of the i-pod generation. You hit the buffers financially and hey presto ! you want to go to England - the land of milk and honey. Pathetic.

The majority of rangers fans knew this won't happen, it is down to the money men to try and look for ways to make money that is what they are doing.

[basehibby]

I don't think we will go to England but the reason you give, what about cardiff and Swansea.

:yawn::yawn::yawn: Not a historical precedent as you well know - Cardiff and Swansea were allowed into the English set up LONG before the start of UEFA competitions and hence before UEFA had any influence - and only because they had no professional league of their own to play in. As far as I know they also had to start at the bottom of the set up (as any reasonable non-deluded person would expect) which for my money is the ONLY way that Rantic have a hope in hell of getting their move to Ingerlund (and even then they'd have to grease some serious palms).
The funny thing of course is that the deluded numpties believe they'd then go and waltz through the opposition and be allowed a clear path onwards and upwards to CL glory - never mind that they'd have to form an orderly queue behind the dozen or so similar sized english clubs (and smaller ones owned by various billionaires) with their eye on the same prize.

[Thecat23]

Be honest, what sort of cash would tv companys offer without rangers and celtic?

I've no idea to be honest you may be right and the tv deal may drop big time. But over time if the SPL is stronger without them and the league is tight maybe between 3 or 4 teams then someone will want to show it.

[blueisthecolour]

I've no idea to be honest you may be right and the tv deal may drop big time. But over time if the SPL is stronger without them and the league is tight maybe between 3 or 4 teams then someone will want to show it.

As ive said mate, I don't think we will find out any time soon anyway.

[blaikie]

:yawn::yawn::yawn: Not a historical precedent as you well know - Cardiff and Swansea were allowed into the English set up LONG before the start of UEFA competitions and hence before UEFA had any influence - and only because they had no professional league of their own to play in. As far as I know they also had to start at the bottom of the set up (as any reasonable non-deluded person would expect) which for my money is the ONLY way that Rantic have a hope in hell of getting their move to Ingerlund (and even then they'd have to grease some serious palms).
The funny thing of course is that the deluded numpties believe they'd then go and waltz through the opposition and be allowed a clear path onwards and upwards to CL glory - never mind that they'd have to form an orderly queue behind the dozen or so similar sized english clubs (and smaller ones owned by various billionaires) with their eye on the same prize.
Good point!
Here is the average attendances of the EPL in 2008,
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/2008/aveeng.htm
So going by the stats the old firm would be on par with Sunderland and Newcastle. If not below that once the EPL ticket prices come into force and your typical Govan Gers fan cant afford £30-£40 a ticket :agree:

[Kaiser1962]

Sorry mate, don't think thats very fair! Blueisthecolour has been a no bad lad on here.

I think the problem with Rangers is...they are still around, in real terms, £60mil in debt - dont where the rest disappeared?? - and by the time the debt is paid for and Murray gets his cash how much of a potential investors money would be left? It would take an investor with money in the region of at least £300mil before they even started!

So no-one interested then? :hmmm::

This is the point. Birmingham have £40m to spend in January but what sort of impact will that make in England. You might actually win the SPL with that funding but in England it will be lucky to keep you in the division. Just. Alternatively you could wait on, potentially, a plethora of English clubs going belly up having spent more than they can afford to try to compete. Vladonomics on a genuinely large scale.

[Kaiser1962]

Be honest, what sort of cash would tv companys offer without rangers and celtic?


I have to say blueisthecolour i read your posts and I am pleased that this forum, unlike others, encourages fans of other clubs who have a reasoned argument to make and I believe that this is a sign of the health of the forum.

Can I however take you to task on two of your points

1/ Away fans. Since all seater stadia Hibs, for example, sell about 2500 to 3000 tickets to the old firm twice (maybe) a season. Losing that would hardly bust us.

2/ Rangers and Celtic take 80% of the tv money between them which leaves 20% for the other 10 teams which, I'm sure your ahead of me here, is 2% each. Current deal is £12m per season so, I'm sure you can do the maths but, by my reckoning leaves "2.4m to be split 10 ways. Now whatever happens all the tv deal would need to be is 2.5m and we would all be better off. If Celtic and Rangers wanted genuine competition at home then the TV money would be split equally but that aint gonna happen for reasons which i am sure Portsmouth, West Ham, Wigan, Stoke, Coventry et al should be really interested in.


We do agree on one thing and that is that R + C are not going anywhere despite their desire to do so and I think that their place, as Scottish teams, is in Scotland. Furthermore it might be interesting if the referendum that wee Jambo Salmond is proposing goes in his favour then the door to England may close forever, hence the urgency to get this issue back on the agenda before any elections/referendum's.

[MrSmith]

I have to say blueisthecolour i read your posts and I am pleased that this forum, unlike others, encourages fans of other clubs who have a reasoned argument to make and I believe that this is a sign of the health of the forum.

Can I however take you to task on two of your points

1/ Away fans. Since all seater stadia Hibs, for example, sell about 2500 to 3000 tickets to the old firm twice (maybe) a season. Losing that would hardly bust us.

2/ Rangers and Celtic take 80% of the tv money between them which leaves 20% for the other 10 teams which, I'm sure your ahead of me here, is 2% each. Current deal is £12m per season so, I'm sure you can do the maths but, by my reckoning leaves "2.4m to be split 10 ways. Now whatever happens all the tv deal would need to be is 2.5m and we would all be better off. If Celtic and Rangers wanted genuine competition at home then the TV money would be split equally but that aint gonna happen for reasons which i am sure Portsmouth, West Ham, Wigan, Stoke, Coventry et al should be really interested in.


We do agree on one thing and that is that R + C are not going anywhere despite their desire to do so and I think that their place, as Scottish teams, is in Scotland. Furthermore it might be interesting if the referendum that wee Jambo Salmond is proposing goes in his favour then the door to England may close forever, hence the urgency to get this issue back on the agenda before any elections/referendum's.

That'll be why the orange order have come out today and stated they will be out campaigning for the 'Union' then!!?

http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Orange-Order-ignites-SNP-over.5744269.jp

[new malkyhib]

If we went down there with the players we have now we would be lucky to do anything in the championship never mind EPL, I think we would attract some of the best players in the world if we where in the EPL we would have the money to buy and pay the wages, but it would take time to win it it.

Newcastle have a big fan base in England but don't think the world, where ever I have been in the world you always see rangers and celtic tops everywhere, I think that would make a difference to what the clubs could do merchandise wise, creating plenty of cash.

Aye, including Edinburgh & Leith:grr:

[JackRegan]

David Murray couldn't get anyone to buy him out for years and there's still no sign, Celtc haven't had a big bucks investor for years. Why do you think that is?
Nobody with any sense wants to be associated with you lot anymore, you're bad news, your filth, you're dead men treading water.
A move to the EPL might bring in some investment but too many people now know you for what you really are. TROUBLE

That's actually not true. Dermot Desmond is the 3rd richest man involved in British football. New Investor, Denis O'Regan is 5th. also the owner of Gap bought a 4% stake in Celtic last year.

[Jack]

That's actually not true. Dermot Desmond is the 3rd richest man involved in British football. New Investor, Denis O'Regan is 5th. also the owner of Gap bought a 4% stake in Celtic last year.

Bought very minor stakes, % wise, there's no suggestion they will buy the whole club. AFAIK they also haven't put their hands in their pockets for playing staff the way English/Arab/Russian investors have. Just to make it clear that's what I meant :greengrin