Posties - Strike

[PaulSmith]

Any Posties on here able to tell me what the strikes are about that are planned for next week?

Although I tend to believe in the Union movement and workers sticking together is this a suicide mission that everyone I speak to thinks it is?

[Betty Boop]

Any Posties on here able to tell me what the strikes are about that are planned for next week?

Although I tend to believe in the Union movement and workers sticking together is this a suicide mission that everyone I speak to thinks it is?

3 - Hundred & forty six pounds - average weekly pay of a postman
3 - Hundred & twenty one million pounds was profit of Royal Mail last year
3 - million pounds was pay packet of Adam Crozier, including two bonuses
3 - thousand pounds is price RM started charging businesses to receive post before noon this year.
3 - pence is rise of price of first class stamp next year.

30,000 temporary workers being brought in.

[LiverpoolHibs]

This is a fantastic article that was in the London Review of Books a couple of weeks back written by a postie with the nom de plume Roy Mayall. It deals with what has caused the current position.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n18/maya01_.html

Old people still write letters the old-fashioned way: by hand, with a biro, folding up the letter into an envelope, writing the address on the front before adding the stamp. Mostly they don’t have email, and while they often have a mobile phone – bought by the family ‘just in case’ – they usually have no idea how to send a text. So Peter Mandelson wasn’t referring to them when he went on TV in May to press for the part-privatisation of the Royal Mail, saying that figures were down due to competition from emails and texts.

I spluttered into my tea when I heard him say that. ‘Figures are down.’ We hear that sentence almost every day at work when management are trying to implement some new initiative which involves postal workers like me working longer hours for no extra pay, carrying more weight, having more duties.

It’s the joke at the delivery office. ‘Figures are down,’ we say, and laugh as we pile the fifth or sixth bag of mail onto the scales and write down the weight in the log-book. It’s our daily exercise in fiction-writing. We’re only supposed to carry a maximum of 16 kilos per bag, on a reducing scale: 16 kilos the first bag, 13 kilos the last. If we did that we’d be taking out ten bags a day and wouldn’t be finished till three in the afternoon.

‘Figures are down,’ we chortle mirthlessly, as we load the third batch of door-to-door catalogues onto our frames, adding yet more weight to our bags, and more minutes of unpaid overtime to our clock. We get paid 1.67 pence per item of unaddressed mail, an amount that hasn’t changed in ten years. It is paid separately from our wages, and we can’t claim overtime if we run past our normal hours because of these items. We also can’t refuse to deliver them. This junk mail is one of the Royal Mail’s most profitable sidelines and my personal contribution to global warming: straight through the letterbox and into the bin.

‘Figures are down,’ we say again, but more wearily now, as we pile yet more packages into our panniers, before setting off on our rounds.
People don’t send so many letters any more, it’s true. But, then again, the average person never did send all that many letters. They sent Christmas cards and birthday cards and postcards. They still do. And bills and bank statements and official letters from the council or the Inland Revenue still arrive by post; plus there’s all the new traffic generated by the internet: books and CDs from Amazon, packages from eBay, DVDs and games from LoveFilm, clothes and gifts and other items purchased at any one of the countless online stores which clutter the internet, bought at any time of the day or night, on a whim, with a credit card.

According to Royal Mail figures published in May, mail volume declined by 5.5 per cent over the preceding 12 months, and is predicted to fall by a further 10 per cent this year ‘due to the recession and the continuing growth of electronic communications such as email’. Every postman knows these figures are false. If the figures are down, how come I can’t get my round done in under four hours any more? How come I can work up to five hours at a stretch without time for a sit-down or a tea break? How come my knees nearly give way with the weight I have to carry? How come something snapped in my back as I was climbing out of the shower, so that I fell to the floor and had to take a week off work?

So who’s right? Are the figures down or aren’t they? The Royal Mail couldn’t lie, could it? Well no, maybe not. But it can manipulate the figures. And it can avoid telling the whole truth.

One thing you probably don’t know, for instance, is that the Royal Mail is already part-privatised. It goes under the euphemism of ‘deregulation’. Deregulation is the result of an EU directive that was meant to be implemented over an extended period to give mail companies time to adjust, but which this government embraced with almost obscene relish, deregulating the UK mail service long before any of its rivals in Europe. It means that any private mail company – or, indeed, any of the state-owned, subsidised European mail companies – is able to bid for Royal Mail contracts.

Take a look at your letters next time you pick them up from the doormat. Look at the right-hand corner, the place where the Queen’s head used to be. You’ll see a variety of different franks, representing a number of different mail companies. There’s TNT, UK Mail, Citypost and a number of others. What these companies do is to bid for the profitable bulk mail and city-to-city trade of large corporations, undercutting the Royal Mail, and then have the Royal Mail deliver it for them. TNT has the very lucrative BT contract, for instance. TNT picks up all BT’s mail from its main offices, sorts it into individual walks according to information supplied by the Royal Mail, scoots it to the mail centres in bulk, where it is then sorted again and handed over to us to deliver. Royal Mail does the work. TNT takes the profit.

None of these companies has a universal delivery obligation, unlike the Royal Mail. In fact they have no delivery obligation at all. They aren’t rival mail companies in a free market, as the propaganda would have you believe. None of them delivers any mail. All they do is ride on the back of the system created and developed by the Royal Mail, and extract profit from it. The process is called ‘downstream access’. Downstream access means that private mail companies have access to any point in the Royal Mail delivery network which will yield a profit, after which they will leave the poor old postman to carry the mail to your door.

So if ‘figures are down’ that doesn’t mean that volume is down. Volume, at least over that last few miles from the office to your door, is decidedly up. But even assuming that Mandelson was telling the truth, that volume really is down by 10 per cent, the fact is that staff levels are down even more, by 30 per cent. That still means each postman is doing a whole lot more work.

There are more part-time staff now. No one is taken on on a full-time basis any more. There are two grades of part-time workers: those working six-hour shifts and those working four hours. The six-hour staff prepare their own frame – their workstation, divided into roads and then numbers, with a slot for each address – but they don’t do any ‘internal sorting’ (this is the initial sorting done when the mail comes into the office). The four-hour part-timers come in and – in theory at least – pick up their pre-packed bags and go straight out. They are hardly in the office at all. This means that the full-timers have to pick up the slack. They are supposed to prepare the frames, sort out the redirections, bundle up the mail and put it into the sacks for the part-timers to take out, as well as doing all the internal sorting, and preparing their own frames: all in the three hours or so before they go out on their rounds.

When I first started working at the Royal Mail every postman prepared his own round. These days maybe a third of the staff are part-time. It’s the full-timers who are on the old-fashioned, water-tight contracts, with full pension entitlement, the ones whose pension fund is such a nightmare for the Royal Mail’s finances. As well as being invariably part-time, new staff are on flexible contracts without pension rights.

The pension fund deficit was £5.9 billion last year and is predicted to rise to £8 or £9 billion next year. The deficit is the main reason various people in positions of authority within the government and the Royal Mail were suggesting the partial sell-off earlier in the year. These people included Adam Crozier, the chief executive, and Jane Newell, the chair of the pension fund trustees, as well as the business secretary, Peter Mandelson. But a partial sale of the Royal Mail wouldn’t get rid of the pension deficit. No private investor would take it on. Which means that, whether the Royal Mail remains in public hands or is partly or fully privatised in the future, the pension deficit will always remain the tax-payer’s obligation.

[...]

[LiverpoolHibs]

Meanwhile there is increasing tension in Royal Mail offices up and down the country. There was a strike in 2007, and a national agreement on ‘pay and modernisation’, but this year has seen management constantly implementing new practices, putting more and more pressure on the steadily dwindling ranks of full-timers. The latest innovation being forced on an unwilling workforce is the collapsing of frames.

Let me explain what this means. Each frame represents a round or a walk. Letters are sorted on the frame, and then bundled up to take out onto the walk. But mail delivery is a seasonal business. Traffic varies throughout the year. Around Christmas it is at its highest. In the summer months, when the kids are out of school, the volume drops. This is known as ‘the summer lull’. So a national agreement was reached between the union and the management to reduce the number of man-hours in each office during the summer months. And the way this was done was to collapse one of the frames. One frame in the office would no longer have a specific postman assigned to it, but would be taken out by all the postmen in the office on a rotating basis. This meant an average of ten or 15 minutes extra work every day for every postman in the office. This agreement was meant to apply to only one frame and for the summer period only.

Now this has changed. There is increasing pressure to collapse more and more frames – that is, to get the same number of postmen to do larger amounts of work – and not just in the summer months but over the whole year. Management are becoming noticeably more belligerent. For some weeks now the managers have been bullying and cajoling everyone in our office, saying that a second frame would have to be collapsed – ‘figures are down’ – and that the workforce would have to decide which frame that would be. Everyone refused. Collapsing a frame would mean that one person would have to move frames, while another person on a ‘flexible’ contract would lose his job altogether. No one wanted to be responsible for making that kind of decision. No one wanted to shaft their workmates. And then last week it was announced, on the heaviest day of the week, and without notice, that a second frame was going to be collapsed anyway, regardless of our opinion. When the shop steward put in a written objection it was ignored.

Such was the resentment and the chaos in the office that a lot of mail didn’t get delivered that day, and what was delivered was late. If a postman fails to deliver a letter, it is called ‘deliberate withholding of mail’ and is a sackable offence. When management are responsible, it is considered merely expedient. There’s a feeling that we are being provoked, and that this isn’t coming from the managers in our office – who aren’t all that bright, and who don’t have all that much power – but from somewhere higher up. Everyone is gearing up for a strike.

The truth is that the figures aren’t down at all. We have proof of this. The Royal Mail have been fiddling the figures. This is how it is being done.
Mail is delivered to the offices in grey boxes. These are a standard size, big enough to carry a few hundred letters. The mail is sorted from these boxes, put into pigeon-holes representing the separate walks, and from there carried over to the frames. This is what is called ‘internal sorting’ and it is the job of the full-timers, who come into work early to do it. In the past, the volume of mail was estimated by weighing the boxes. These days it is done by averages. There is an estimate for the number of letters that each box contains, decided on by national agreement between the management and the union. That number is 208. This is how the volume of mail passing through each office is worked out: 208 letters per box times the number of boxes. However, within the last year Royal Mail has arbitrarily, and without consultation, reduced the estimate for the number of letters in each box. It was 208: now they say it is 150. This arbitrary reduction more than accounts for the 10 per cent reduction that the Royal Mail claims is happening nationwide.

Doubting the accuracy of these numbers, the union ordered a random manual count to be undertaken over a two-week period in a number of offices across the region. Our office was one of them. On average, those boxes which the Royal Mail claims contain only 150 letters, actually carry 267 items of mail. This, then, explains how the Royal Mail can say that the figures are down, although every postman knows that volume is up. The figures are down all right, but only because they have been manipulated.
Like many businesses, the Royal Mail has a pet name for its customers. The name is ‘Granny Smith’. It’s a deeply affectionate term. Granny Smith is everyone, but particularly every old lady who lives alone and for whom the mail service is a lifeline. When an old lady gives me a Christmas card with a fiver slipped in with it and writes, ‘Thank you for thinking of me every day,’ she means it. I might be the only person in the world who thinks about her every day, even if it’s only for long enough to read her name on an envelope and then put it through her letterbox. There is a tension between the Royal Mail as a profit-making business and the Royal Mail as a public service. For most of the Royal Mail management – who rarely, if ever, come across the public – it is the first. To the delivery officer – to me, and people like me, the postmen who bring the mail to your door – it is more than likely the second.

We had a meeting a while back at which all the proposed changes to the business were laid out. Changes in our hours and working practices. Changes to our priorities. Changes that have led to the current chaos. We were told that the emphasis these days should be on the corporate customer. It was what the corporations wanted that mattered. We were effectively being told that quality of service to the average customer was less important than satisfying the requirements of the big businesses.

Someone piped up in the middle of it. ‘What about Granny Smith?’ he said. He’s an old-fashioned sort of postman, the kind who cares about these things.

‘Granny Smith is not important,’ was the reply. ‘Granny Smith doesn’t matter any more.’
So now you know.


**** Adam Crozier, **** Peter Mandleson and if you know anyone taking one of the 30,000 scab jobs, give them a kick in the bollocks from me.

[ArabHibee]

Cheers for posting that LH - very interesting read.

You never get the real story about these kind of things unless you speak to someone who is in the middle of it.

Never trust the media to give you an unbiased opinion of what's going on, I learnt that during the firefighter's strikes a few years ago.

[Expecting Rain]

Excellent post Liverpool Hibs, a very accurate account of the present situation and a welcome one in the face of much criticism.

[lyonhibs]

I don't have the required 2 hours to read LH's article - I will do so in the near future - but in simple terms, whilst the posties are well within their rights to strike if they feel aggrieved at their pay/conditions, why the hate campaign against 30,000 workers being legally employed to keep this vital service ticking over in the run up to its busiest time of the year??

I'm missing something clearly, but I don't feel the term "scab" is justified, and the the Unions are kicking up such a stink - partly - because these temporary workers will lessen the impact on RM services that is felt by the ordinary public, which will in turn lessen the effectiveness of their strike.

[col02]

It would appear to me that there are some people who would back any sort of strike action in this country despite the fact there now exists a very good set of employment laws to protect workers!

[LiverpoolHibs]

Cheers for posting that LH - very interesting read.

You never get the real story about these kind of things unless you speak to someone who is in the middle of it.

Never trust the media to give you an unbiased opinion of what's going on, I learnt that during the firefighter's strikes a few years ago.

Careful now, I'm not sure we can be seen to agree. :wink:


I don't have the required 2 hours to read LH's article - I will do so in the near future -

It's not really very lengthy at all!


but in simple terms, whilst the posties are well within their rights to strike if they feel aggrieved at their pay/conditions, why the hate campaign against 30,000 workers being legally employed to keep this vital service ticking over in the run up to its busiest time of the year?? I'm missing something clearly, but I don't feel the term "scab" is justified, and the the Unions are kicking up such a stink - partly - because these temporary workers will lessen the impact on RM services that is felt by the ordinary public, which will in turn lessen the effectiveness of their strike.

I'm struggling to see how the term 'scab' isn't justified? What's a scab if they aren't? What's the relevance of them being 'legally employed'?

Of course that's why they're 'kicking up a stink', what else would they object to?

I'm mightily confused.


It would appear to me that there are some people who would back any sort of strike action in this country despite the fact there now exists a very good set of employment laws to protect workers!

I'm even more confused...

[GlesgaeHibby]

I'm struggling to see how the term 'scab' isn't justified? What's a scab if they aren't? What's the relevance of them being 'legally employed'?

Of course that's why they're 'kicking up a stink', what else would they object to?



So you're saying that anyone taking up one of the 30000 temporary jobs with the royal mail in the run up to xmas is a scab?

[LiverpoolHibs]

So you're saying that anyone taking up one of the 30000 temporary jobs with the royal mail in the run up to xmas is a scab?

Well, they take on temp staff at Christmas anyway so I admit it's slightly muddied the waters (undoubtedly done on purpose) but I think you've got to say yes.

[Coco Bryce]

Well, they take on temp staff at Christmas anyway so I admit it's slightly muddied the waters (undoubtedly done on purpose) but I think you've got to say yes.

I don't really care who or what delivers my mail to be honest as long as they deliver my mail before 2pm, the time I currently get it now :grr:

[RigRoars]

Well, they take on temp staff at Christmas anyway so I admit it's slightly muddied the waters (undoubtedly done on purpose) but I think you've got to say yes.

I'm sure i read somewhere the Royal Mail normally take on about 15000 extra staff at xmas.Its double that because of the strike action.

I was actually thinking of taking a temp job as i'm really struggling for work at the moment.

I cant now though, i would never cross a picket line :grr:

[Green Mikey]

Well, they take on temp staff at Christmas anyway so I admit it's slightly muddied the waters (undoubtedly done on purpose) but I think you've got to say yes.


'Scab' workers are an inevitable consequence of industrial action therefore I believe it is pointless for the unions to complain. A campaign against the temp workers detracts from the the real reasons for the strike and could can easily be spun against the unions by the media.

Personally I can't understand why anyone would want to deter people from taking any employment when jobs are scarce.

[LiverpoolHibs]

'Scab' workers are an inevitable consequence of industrial action therefore I believe it is pointless for the unions to complain. A campaign against the temp workers detracts from the the real reasons for the strike and could can easily be spun against the unions by the media.

I don't know what 'inevitable' is doing in that sentence. There's nothing 'inevitable' about it.

The CWU have, if anything, underplayed the move so I doubt any campaign will detract.


Personally I can't understand why anyone would want to deter people from taking any employment when jobs are scarce.

Erm, principles? Not being a ****ing ****bag?

[Betty Boop]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/18/victoria-coren-royal-mail

[Green Mikey]

I don't know what 'inevitable' is doing in that sentence. There's nothing 'inevitable' about it.

The CWU have, if anything, underplayed the move so I doubt any campaign will detract.



Erm, principles? Not being a ****ing ****bag?

In this case it is inevitable that scab workers were going to be introduced due the time of year and the type of service the royal mail provides.

Companies will always seek to continue production and there will always be people looking to work. Strikes create this situation and therefore scab workers are an invetable consequence of this action. In your socialist utopia nobody would dare cross a picket however in the real world there will always be people who will take the opportunity to work.

A ****ing ****bag is someone on a internet forum condemning people for taking work that is offered to them just because they don't share the same principles. During a recession I find it difficult to call people ****bags for taking work that is available, principles evaporate when the mortgage needs paid.

[Hainan Hibs]

With Christmas coming up, a recession going on and people losing jobs,I can't really see the people who want these jobs in bad light?

[ArabHibee]

With Christmas coming up, a recession going on and people losing jobs,I can't really see the people who want these jobs in bad light?

I suppose it depends on whether people have principles about this or whether they want money in their pocket to feed and cloth themselves and their family? It's a difficult one and I'm glad I'm not in that position.

There was a geezer from the Royal Mail (I forget his name) being interviewed on BBC Breakfast this morning and boy, would he not answer one single question with a straight answer! He made a right tw@t of himself, IMO.

[Andy74]

This striking nonsense gets on my t1ts.

In the real workld if you don't agree with what management are doing or you feel that you are not being paid what you are worth then you know where the door is and you go to someone who you do agree that you can work with.

There are suficient laws around these days to protect against your basic employment rights being infringed.

In the past couple of years I've seen my salary frozen, my pension scheme reduced significantly, a contracual promise to pay an annual bonus torn up and been asked to take on more work over longer hours.

Should I be going on strike or either getting on with it or looking for another job where 'things would be better?'

If I did strike it probably wouldn't have a direct effect on the public in the short term. I'ts the only reason they do it, total blackmail and exploitation of the public who rely on their 'service'.

[lyonhibs]

Well, they take on temp staff at Christmas anyway so I admit it's slightly muddied the waters (undoubtedly done on purpose) but I think you've got to say yes.

Just ever so slightly :rolleyes:

People unemployed > actively looking for work > see temporary position at Royal Mail, need money for their own Xmas > apply and get temporary job = "scab" ******* :confused: :confused:

I don't think unemployed people should be criticised for looking out for number 1, especially in this economic climate.

Oh, and I hope the postal strike gets solved to the consent, if not ecstasy, of both parties.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Well, they take on temp staff at Christmas anyway so I admit it's slightly muddied the waters (undoubtedly done on purpose) but I think you've got to say yes.

Utter pish IMO. Jobs are scarce, people need money, we all need our mail delivered.


Just ever so slightly :rolleyes:

People unemployed > actively looking for work > see temporary position at Royal Mail, need money for their own Xmas > apply and get temporary job = "scab" ******* :confused: :confused:

I don't think unemployed people should be criticised for looking out for number 1, especially in this economic climate.

Oh, and I hope the postal strike gets solved to the consent, if not ecstasy, of both parties.

Totally agree here.

I also agree with Andy74's comments. A lot has changed since the 70s/80s where strikes were common. We now have EU working time regulations, national minimum wage etc. Workers are much more protected than ever before. The posties are being paid to do a job, and while they might not agree with the way management expect them to do it, they still get paid to do the job.

[PiemanP]

I'm struggling to see how the term 'scab' isn't justified? What's a scab if they aren't? What's the relevance of them being 'legally employed'?

Of course that's why they're 'kicking up a stink', what else would they object to?

I'm mightily confused.



I tell you now that if i were trying to support my family during a recession then id have no problem at all being a 'scab'. Its not the 80's anymore!

do you actually have a job?? because i get the feeling u'd spend every day of it standing outside with an oil drum and placards, complaining about everything that doesnt meet your left wing uber socialist needs!

Yes i'm getting no christmas bonus this year, do i go on strike? no i bl**dy well get on with life in the real world.

[PiemanP]

This striking nonsense gets on my t1ts.

In the real workld if you don't agree with what management are doing or you feel that you are not being paid what you are worth then you know where the door is and you go to someone who you do agree that you can work with.

There are suficient laws around these days to protect against your basic employment rights being infringed.

In the past couple of years I've seen my salary frozen, my pension scheme reduced significantly, a contracual promise to pay an annual bonus torn up and been asked to take on more work over longer hours.

Should I be going on strike or either getting on with it or looking for another job where 'things would be better?'

If I did strike it probably wouldn't have a direct effect on the public in the short term. I'ts the only reason they do it, total blackmail and exploitation of the public who rely on their 'service'.

:agree:

[LiverpoolHibs]

In this case it is inevitable that scab workers were going to be introduced due the time of year and the type of service the royal mail provides.

Companies will always seek to continue production and there will always be people looking to work. Strikes create this situation and therefore scab workers are an invetable consequence of this action. In your socialist utopia nobody would dare cross a picket however in the real world there will always be people who will take the opportunity to work.

Ah, of course - it's the fault of those wishing to strike; they've brought it on themselves.

'My socialist utopia' - this is getting odd.


A ****ing ****bag is someone on a internet forum condemning people for taking work that is offered to them just because they don't share the same principles. During a recession I find it difficult to call people ****bags for taking work that is available, principles evaporate when the mortgage needs paid.

Ouch!

If you'd read anything about the CWU's position you'd see that they've focussed most of their outrage on Royal Mail management volunteering and being assigned to the 30,000 positions. Many of whom are affiliated to Unite through the CMA.

Also, there are suggestions that it might actually be an illegal move by R.M. though that seems pretty vague at the moment.


This striking nonsense gets on my t1ts.

In the real workld if you don't agree with what management are doing or you feel that you are not being paid what you are worth then you know where the door is and you go to someone who you do agree that you can work with.

There are suficient laws around these days to protect against your basic employment rights being infringed.

In the past couple of years I've seen my salary frozen, my pension scheme reduced significantly, a contracual promise to pay an annual bonus torn up and been asked to take on more work over longer hours.

Should I be going on strike or either getting on with it or looking for another job where 'things would be better?'

If I did strike it probably wouldn't have a direct effect on the public in the short term. I'ts the only reason they do it, total blackmail and exploitation of the public who rely on their 'service'.

Where to start, where to start...

Why do people invariably start comparing the people in a dispute with their own position or those considered particularly put-upon, in these sort of situations?


Just ever so slightly :rolleyes:

People unemployed > actively looking for work > see temporary position at Royal Mail, need money for their own Xmas > apply and get temporary job = "scab" ******* :confused: :confused:

I don't think unemployed people should be criticised for looking out for number 1, especially in this economic climate.

Oh, and I hope the postal strike gets solved to the consent, if not ecstasy, of both parties.

Yet again, I fail to see how by any definition of the word they are not scabs. It might not be very nice, but they are. It's amazing how people suddenly come over all sympathetic to the unemployed (I don't mean anyone on here btw.) when this sort of thing starts.

If you agree with the cause of the CWU then I have no idea how anyone could consider supporting people explicitly 'taking up the slack'. It doesn't make any sense.

I'd also be interested to know just how preferable to benefits Christmas temporary work would be.


Utter pish IMO. Jobs are scarce, people need money, we all need our mail delivered.

I'm not sure what you think the point of a strike - in general terms - is?


Totally agree here.

I also agree with Andy74's comments. A lot has changed since the 70s/80s where strikes were common. We now have EU working time regulations, national minimum wage etc. Workers are much more protected than ever before. The posties are being paid to do a job, and while they might not agree with the way management expect them to do it, they still get paid to do the job.

Are you kidding?

[LiverpoolHibs]

I tell you now that if i were trying to support my family during a recession then id have no problem at all being a 'scab'. Its not the 80's anymore!

do you actually have a job?? because i get the feeling u'd spend every day of it standing outside with an oil drum and placards, complaining about everything that doesnt meet your left wing uber socialist needs!

Yes i'm getting no christmas bonus this year, do i go on strike? no i bl**dy well get on with life in the real world.

:tee hee:

I do have some pretty left wing and uber socialist 'needs'.

This is a pretty good overview for anyone interested.

http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/we_dont_want_to_strike.html

We Don't Want To Strike!

We think it's fair to say that you our customers are not interested in why we are once again striking.It is also fair to say that some of the problems we are going through does not affect you either.
What you are interested in is you getting your mail and whatever mail you send getting there within the allotted time depending on what service was paid for.
But we do think that it is fair to inform you of part of the reason as to why we are striking as it affects you in a big way.
But before we go on let's get one thing out 1st,it's not about a pay rise,far from it,a pay rise if we are to be truthful is in the mix but is not as a high priority as other concerns we have.
Please just take a minute to see what we have to say.

What's affecting you then?

In 2007 we signed an agreement with Royal Mail called the Pay & Modernisation deal,in that deal there are, amongst other things, a new working practice called 'absorption'. This is one of YOUR biggest problems,whether you are a domestic or business customer!
Before the deal any postal workers rounds that weren't covered due to staff sickness,holidays,or general shortage would be covered by other postal workers on overtime.
There would be no shortage of posties willing to do this,so there was never a major problem getting the mail delivered.
But now we have 'absorption',what this now means is that any rounds now that does not have a postal worker allocated to it is now absorbed by the rest of the postal workers in the office.
With Royal Mail insisting that mail volumes are falling they are under the impression that we know have a lot of spare time in which to absorb other posties work.
This is not the case,not only have we lost 60,000 staff in the business in the last few years (our CEO Adam Crozier has publicly admitted this) but we now have a large proportion of part-time workers which affects the way the mail pipeline works.
Mail is being delayed regularly and in vast amounts around the country in the name of absorption,so managers can report that absorption has happened and the savings have been made,some posties have to leave part of their round in the office,they also are being forced to 'cut off' or stop their deliveries as they have run out of time.
Royal Mail drivers have been taken off their packet routes to help absorption, hence packets are left undelivered for days.
This is a mass abuse of the deal we signed in 07,and posties are being bullied and threatened with taken off pay if they either refuse to do this or happen to cut off.

Later deliveries

A few years back Royal Mail ceased the 2nd delivery and you now only get one, but the truth is Royal Mail did not stop the 2nd delivery they cancelled the 1st. We now start our rounds at the time that we started the 2nd delivery years ago and now, Royal Mail want even later start times. So while today, if you're one of the lucky ones, you might meet your postman before you go to lunch, you will soon be meeting him just before dinner. We are aware that this causes big problems for businesses all over the UK more especially those that work from home.
But that does not seem to matter to Royal Mail, later start times and later deliveries are all down to modernisation, or in other words, new sorting machines being brought in which, would you believe, take even longer to sort the mail.
This will also affect our own work/life balance and there are childcare issues, and school run problems, already rising because of it.
You may also be aware before we went to Single Daily Delivery, you could pick up any packets or signed for letters left in the morning around 2 hours or so later at your local office. That, as some of you may be aware has changed, some places you have to wait 24 hours, most 48 but there are some where you can't get the packet for nearly 72hrs.
That's if your office is local instead of on some industrial estate somewhere, and of course if it does not close before lunch.
This is Royal Mail modernisation.

If you don't like your job,then leave

This is what we read about all the time from alleged customers on the Internet news stories comment sections, and, regrettably Royal Mail management.
But who says that we don't like our job. You will find that most posties love their job, but are finding it harder and harder to provide the service they want and their customers expect, not just because of the work levels, but more so the bullying and harassment by managers at all levels of the business.
Why should we have to put up with the constant B&H and worsening of our terms and conditions, when all we want to do is get on with our job and provide a service to our customers.
We will not be hounded out of a job we love in the name of profit, or be made to feel guilty because we decide to defend our current Conditions of service, instead of allowing them to be decimated because of the inherently unfair bonus culture of Royal Mail.

National strike

The 1st strike was in London N18 Edmonton against introduction of part-time duties by executive action on 7th March. Cowdenbeath DO was the first among many in Scotland to strike against Executive Action on 27th March. The whole of London took action throughout June, and over 500 other offices around the country either went out on strike or requested a strike ballot. Previously to all of this some Mail Centres around the country took strike action over their closures, and the lack of real consultation.
London, since June have taken over 16 days of action.
During all that time we have repeatedly asked Royal Mail to negotiate with our Union about, not only the problems that you have so far read about and will read about below, but more importantly the fact that previous agreements are either being ignored or abused.
It has now come to the time where enough is enough and now we have, unfortunately, the national strikes.

No more efficiency changes this year

This is what Royal Mail have claimed but this is not the case,there are many cases on the site where Royal Mail are still pushing ahead with with their changes.Including later start times,full-time positions going to part-time,Pegasus 2 revisions (flawed computer program),night staff being moved to days,full-time staff to prep part-time staff walks,more hours to go from delivery offices...

You the tax payer

You are being mislead by the media and the Government regarding Billions of pounds of tax payers money being used to prop up Royal Mail and our pensions,this is not the case and a blatant lie by all. For many years the treasury have taken our profits from us for their own gain, add nearly 13 years when due to tax reasons Royal Mail did not pay into our pension scheme, and yes the treasury got that money as well, you the tax payer owes Royal Mail Billions of pounds.
Any money recently received by Royal Mail from tax payers has been a loan and has to be paid back at commercial loan rates which means that the tax payer has once again benefited from us.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Privatisation

This is a simple one,the Government have said that they will take over our pension deficit only if we get part-privatised. The crux of this,is that you the tax payer will pay for our pensions,but a private investor will not have to so they will just get the profits. Our Union Leader remarked on this at the Labour Conference by saying the Government were Privatising the Profit and Nationalising the debt.
The tax payer will have the debt, while the private investor will get the profit!
We, us the humble posties do not need to tell you what happens after a company is privatised, you only need to look at your utility bills, train fares and your bank statements for that.
Mail volumes

We agree that mail volumes are down,but not as much as Royal Mail say, we accept the recession has had an effect, but again, not as much that Royal Mail has said. With 60,00 jobs gone, bigger rounds,over 1 Million new homes built in the last few years with more to come, a few letters less in our post bag, when you add the mass increase in packets due to e-commerce,there is no leeway in our duties like Royal Mail think.
Add the fact that Royal Mail now count the mail differently with an un agreed and flawed process,then you have false traffic figures.
What is in the boxes that they send the mail down to Delivery Offices, is very much under estimated and has been shown to be so by royalmailchat members counting individual boxes.

Independent report on Royal Mail

Last year the Government requested an independent report on Royal Mail (The Hooper report) this found many flaws with the way the business is being run,including lack of transparency by the business with its figures and the fact that Royal Mail management were not up to the job.
We are not against modernisation

WE ARE NOT AGAINST CHANGE - We signed up to the Pay and Mod Agreement. RM ignored Phase 4 till we started local strikes. WE ARE AWARE THERE WILL BE JOB LOSSES - 60,000 gone in recent years.
WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR A PAY RISE PER SE - We had a pay freeze this year which was imposed against the spirit of the 2007 agreement.
WE ARE NOT AGAINST MODERNISATION - But we haven't seen it in deliveries unless you count longer routes with heavier bags.
WE OFFERED A MORATORIUM ON STRIKES IF ROYAL MAIL DISCUSSED CHANGES - Royal Mail refused saying it was a stalling tactic but now they want it when un agreed systems are in place.
WE ARE NOT AGAINST WORKING HARD - The Union suggested having independent organisations help both sides come up with a fair and balanced way of measuring workload and standard - Royal Mail refused.
The 2007 agreement allowed local units to have innovative attendance patterns, and these were agreed in some units with full Royal Mail involvement. Yet without consulting the CWU (as per the agreement) they unilaterally enforced change on these working arrangements.
The agreement also allowed a local earnings package,this has been taken away by Royal Mail.

We are and we will strike against - Bullying and Harassment such as


• Being suspended for pointing out H&S concerns.

• Being sent home without pay when we can't complete a delivery in the time allotted especially if managers are not willing to walk test us or check individual posties frames to see how busy they are.

• Genuine overtime being struck off when you go over your contracted hours on a busy day.

• Being sent home without pay when you can't do the half hour flexibility when asked - even though personal reasons are meant to be taken into account as per the 07 agreement.

• When you do the 1/2hr flexibility not being able to claw it back or be paid it on overtime as per the 07 agreement. Or being given it back in 5 minute chunks.

• Changing our start and finish times on a weekly basis without negotiation.

• Using a flawed computer program to work out rounds with un-agreed walk speeds.

• No independent H&S review after accidents at work - Staff being blamed for accidents without thorough and external review of all pertinent matters by an independent body.
Spanish practices do not exist

The reality in modern delivery offices is that the posties slogs their guts out everyday under the gaze of managers ready to sack them for the slightest indiscretion. Many many part-timers are bullied by managers into doing unpaid over time day in day out.
All OT has to be OK'ed by management and most posties are too intimidated to go see their manager to ask for it.
A lot of our guys do hrs of OT per week for nothing.
Give the Public a service - Yep that's Royal Mails job and guess how they do that

1. Close 3,500 Post Offices. 2. Reduce the service at 1000s of others.
3. Allow the Government to withdraw some of the services you used to be able to get at POs.
4. Ceased Sunday Collections (now for anyone to get anything on Monday you need to send it before 1230 on Saturday.
5. Cancelled Bank Holiday Collections.
6. Cancelled 2nd Delivery
7. Made the 1st delivery later than the 2nd ever was.
8. Laid off 60,000 workers through various means.
9. Close delivery offices and amalgamate them into Super DOs on industrial estates miles from bus routes.
10. Bring in a complicated and expensive postage system. (Pricing in Proportion).
11. Increase handling fees for Import from £4 to £8.
12. Increase the surcharge of underpaid items to £1.
13. Increase stamp prices above inflation.
14. Agree a price with DSA competitors to use our network which means we subsidise them to the tune of 2p per item.
15. Take 5 years to spend half of the 1.2billion the government loaned them, but we are still yet to see the machines in use on a UK wide basis even though trials are going well according to Royal Mail.
16. Removing Mail Cycles and replacing them with cars and then claiming they are doing everything to reduce carbon emissions.
17. Half day closing for all Callers Offices and a delay of up to 72 hours before you can collect parcels/letters after getting a "Sorry you were out Card"
All of the above is not exaustive,but we are,thank you for taking the time to read it.Royal Mail customers have their own forum on royalmailchat and we welcome your comments.

[Andy74]

Ah, of course - it's the fault of those wishing to strike; they've brought it on themselves.

'My socialist utopia' - this is getting odd.



Ouch!

If you'd read anything about the CWU's position you'd see that they've focussed most of their outrage on Royal Mail management volunteering and being assigned to the 30,000 positions. Many of whom are affiliated to Unite through the CMA.

Also, there are suggestions that it might actually be an illegal move by R.M. though that seems pretty vague at the moment.



Where to start, where to start...

Why do people invariably start comparing the people in a dispute with their own position or those considered particularly put-upon, in these sort of situations?



Yet again, I fail to see how by any definition of the word they are not scabs. It might not be very nice, but they are. It's amazing how people suddenly come over all sympathetic to the unemployed (I don't mean anyone on here btw.) when this sort of thing starts.

If you agree with the cause of the CWU then I have no idea how anyone could consider supporting people explicitly 'taking up the slack'. It doesn't make any sense.

I'd also be interested to know just how preferable to benefits Christmas temporary work would be.



I'm not sure what you think the point of a strike - in general terms - is?



Are you kidding?

Where to start?

Why don't you stat by explaining to me what more right they have to strike than your average punter for any other company?

I think other comparing it to their own circumstances if very relevant because outside these outdated institutions, in the real world, this is what we all put up with, or we leave.

Working longer hours for the same or less pay? Aye, who desn't? Most people have to - it's the only way the work can be done as generally companies get away with empoying the minimum people they can. In my line of work I'm busier now than ever and I'm getting less pay and benefits in real terms with no right to any annual increase.

In public service people would seemingly refuse to work in these cirumstances.

It's a different world and in this day and age public sympathy will be virtually nowt. You find now that in the jobs that people find it acceptable to strike they have far better pension schemes than those in the big companies as commefrcial decisions were made on those ages agao, they still have some type of raise each year as they'd walk out if they didn't get it, and there is far more of an attitude that says you need to take all your breaks and lunches.

In general now the rest of us put up with all this without having the need to strike - we all know where the door is if we aren't happy with anyhting. Why should anyone else be any different?

[ArabHibee]

Where to start?

Why don't you stat by explaining to me what more right they have to strike than your average punter for any other company?

I think other comparing it to their own circumstances if very relevant because outside these outdated institutions, in the real world, this is what we all put up with, or we leave.

Working longer hours for the same or less pay? Aye, who desn't? Most people have to - it's the only way the work can be done as generally companies get away with empoying the minimum people they can. In my line of work I'm busier now than ever and I'm getting less pay and benefits in real terms with no right to any annual increase.

In public service people would seemingly refuse to work in these cirumstances.

It's a different world and in this day and age public sympathy will be virtually nowt. You find now that in the jobs that people find it acceptable to strike they have far better pension schemes than those in the big companies as commefrcial decisions were made on those ages agao, they still have some type of raise each year as they'd walk out if they didn't get it, and there is far more of an attitude that says you need to take all your breaks and lunches.

In general now the rest of us put up with all this without having the need to strike - we all know where the door is if we aren't happy with anyhting. Why should anyone else be any different?

Can I ask you - are you a member of a Union and in the job you are in now, would you actually be able to strike?

[Killiehibbie]

Where to start?

Why don't you stat by explaining to me what more right they have to strike than your average punter for any other company?

I think other comparing it to their own circumstances if very relevant because outside these outdated institutions, in the real world, this is what we all put up with, or we leave.

Working longer hours for the same or less pay? Aye, who desn't? Most people have to - it's the only way the work can be done as generally companies get away with empoying the minimum people they can. In my line of work I'm busier now than ever and I'm getting less pay and benefits in real terms with no right to any annual increase.

In public service people would seemingly refuse to work in these cirumstances.

It's a different world and in this day and age public sympathy will be virtually nowt. You find now that in the jobs that people find it acceptable to strike they have far better pension schemes than those in the big companies as commefrcial decisions were made on those ages agao, they still have some type of raise each year as they'd walk out if they didn't get it, and there is far more of an attitude that says you need to take all your breaks and lunches.

In general now the rest of us put up with all this without having the need to strike - we all know where the door is if we aren't happy with anyhting. Why should anyone else be any different?

That's what's wrong with the country . People are prepared to do all kinds of overtime, increased work, etc without being paid for it. Why do you go to work? I always went to work to get paid for the job done. If a boss wants any more he pays you for it if he doesn't pay he doesn't get his targets met. You let them walk all over you they run you into the ground then get the next mug to take your place.

[Andy74]

That's what's wrong with the country . People are prepared to do all kinds of overtime, increased work, etc without being paid for it. Why do you go to work? I always went to work to get paid for the job done. If a boss wants any more he pays you for it if he doesn't pay he doesn't get his targets met. You let them walk all over you they run you into the ground then get the next mug to take your place.

If we didn't do all those things we'd be out the door, and would certainly not be considered for any sort of promotion. It's the same for everyone in the company and will go for most out there I'd imagine.

If you don't like it, it's easy, you leave. If you really are worth any more money or think you can get away with doing less somewhere else for the same reward then obviously someone will be more than willing to snap you up.

Management make decisions all the time about the way we work, the structure, how we interact with our customers, most of it means more work for us and that's the real world i'm afraid.

I think we do have a union, never seen the point in joining because my basic rights are protected in law and as I said the main option if you don't like anything is leaving.

[Killiehibbie]

If we didn't do all those things we'd be out the door, and would certainly not be considered for any sort of promotion. It's the same for everyone in the company and will go for most out there I'd imagine.

If you don't like it, it's easy, you leave. If you really are worth any more money or think you can get away with doing less somewhere else for the same reward then obviously someone will be more than willing to snap you up.

Management make decisions all the time about the way we work, the structure, how we interact with our customers, most of it means more work for us and that's the real world i'm afraid.

I think we do have a union, never seen the point in joining because my basic rights are protected in law and as I said the main option if you don't like anything is leaving.

So where do you draw the line? I'm all for a fair days work for a fair days pay but often that's not the case.
I've been asked to drive unroadworthy vehicles, use unsafe machinery, etc by bosses who only care about their targets and budgets. I done exactly what you suggest and told the likes of you to ram it years ago and went to work for myself, sole trader no staff nothing to worry about except me.

[Andy74]

So where do you draw the line? I'm all for a fair days work for a fair days pay but often that's not the case.
I've been asked to drive unroadworthy vehicles, use unsafe machinery, etc by bosses who only care about their targets and budgets. I done exactly what you suggest and told the likes of you to ram it years ago and went to work for myself, sole trader no staff nothing to worry about except me.

I think unroadworthy vehicles and unsafe practices are a bit different and there should be, and I'm sure there are, appropriate ways that you can raise concerns over those type of things.

But at the end of the day there is always the option of doing what you have done, the same route open to most people, to leave and go somewhere else or set up yourself.

And what do you mean by the likes of me?? :confused:

[hibsbollah]

Debates about the rights and wrongs of strikes are very boring and predictable. Those on the left support all strikes as a default position and those on the right condemn all strikes on the basis that the management are, by default, 'the boss'. Andy74s attitude is a good example.

If you look at the actual case in hand, the Royal mail has always been an absolutely fantastic service, on a personal basis ive never had a problem with them, and ive always been amazed at how reliable and cheap its been for ordinary members of the public. Cue consecutive Labour and Tory Govts trying to 'modernise' it, and introduce gradual competition with post office closures in rural areas and cost cutting all over the place. The postal service has been decimated in this country, just like the railways, the water companies and any other decent public service you could mention.

I'm sorry to say the postal service as we knew it is over, regardless of what happens with this strike. In a few years we'll probably have lots more 'choice' though:rolleyes:

[Killiehibbie]

I think unroadworthy vehicles and unsafe practices are a bit different and there should be, and I'm sure there are, appropriate ways that you can raise concerns over those type of things.

But at the end of the day there is always the option of doing what you have done, the same route open to most people, to leave and go somewhere else or set up yourself.

And what do you mean by the likes of me?? :confused:
Raise concerns about working practices and your life is a misery until you leave.
Would be managers going without rest periods, meal breaks and doing unpaid ot all for the good of the company.

[BravestHibs]

If we didn't do all those things we'd be out the door, and would certainly not be considered for any sort of promotion. It's the same for everyone in the company and will go for most out there I'd imagine.

If you don't like it, it's easy, you leave. If you really are worth any more money or think you can get away with doing less somewhere else for the same reward then obviously someone will be more than willing to snap you up.

Management make decisions all the time about the way we work, the structure, how we interact with our customers, most of it means more work for us and that's the real world i'm afraid.

I think we do have a union, never seen the point in joining because my basic rights are protected in law and as I said the main option if you don't like anything is leaving.

How is leaving an option for someone who doesn't have any savings, a mortgage to pay, kids to feed and perhaps has no other option for work within a 40 mile radius. You sound like this idiot I and probably most of the people on this board used to work for. 'You don't like it, leave.' The stock response of a tory simpleton.

[Hibeebob]

This striking nonsense gets on my t1ts.

In the real workld if you don't agree with what management are doing or you feel that you are not being paid what you are worth then you know where the door is and you go to someone who you do agree that you can work with.

There are suficient laws around these days to protect against your basic employment rights being infringed.

In the past couple of years I've seen my salary frozen, my pension scheme reduced significantly, a contracual promise to pay an annual bonus torn up and been asked to take on more work over longer hours.

Should I be going on strike or either getting on with it or looking for another job where 'things would be better?'

If I did strike it probably wouldn't have a direct effect on the public in the short term. I'ts the only reason they do it, total blackmail and exploitation of the public who rely on their 'service'.

Worst post I've seen of you in years Andy.

You know any of the facts or did you not read any of LH posts ?


tell you now that if i were trying to support my family during a recession then id have no problem at all being a 'scab'. Its not the 80's anymore!

do you actually have a job?? because i get the feeling u'd spend every day of it standing outside with an oil drum and placards, complaining about everything that doesnt meet your left wing uber socialist needs!

Yes i'm getting no christmas bonus this year, do i go on strike? no i bl**dy well get on with life in the real world.


Oh sorry I've just found a bigger idiot.


I've been a postman for 5 years and the company has never been in such a state,
I don't really care who or what delivers my mail to be honest as long as they deliver my mail before 2pm, the time I currently get it now Coco, you typify the daily response from your average customer, ''what time do you call this ?'' etc etc. Well I'm sorry you cant have it all ways, these same numbskulls say we shouldnt be standing up for our rights or striking and we should just do what we are told WELL THATS WHY YOU GET YOUR MAIL AT 2 pm erse. And dont worry if RM get there way it will be a whole lot later than that.

Oh and by the way we have been through three phases of modernisation already and still they want more. 63 posties in my D O when I started, 48 now and 16 are part time. the mail has not dropped that much, if at all.

Unless you are willing to read all the facts dont spout mince about ''oh jobs are scarce yous should just be getting on with it, or leave''

Aye so I can be replaced by a part time worker on 25 hours a week, making the sevice the public receive even worse ?


At least it would give the customers something else to moan about, but then that would be the fault of the workforce again and not the management eh ?

HB

[Tinyclothes]

Management make decisions all the time about the way we work, the structure, how we interact with our customers, most of it means more work for us and that's the real world i'm afraid.



You ridea of the real world is probably eating cavier whilst punching a fox in the legs if you think anyone can just up and leave their job, just like that. It's not as simple as that and when people are being shat upon from people who have too much power than it can only be a good thing that the workers have some form of rights and a forum to raise their issues.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Coco, you typify the daily response from your average customer, ''what time do you call this ?'' etc etc. Well I'm sorry you cant have it all ways, these same numbskulls say we shouldnt be standing up for our rights or striking and we should just do what we are told WELL THATS WHY YOU GET YOUR MAIL AT 2 pm erse. And dont worry if RM get there way it will be a whole lot later than that.


Way to go, getting the public on your side. :agree:

[Andy74]

How is leaving an option for someone who doesn't have any savings, a mortgage to pay, kids to feed and perhaps has no other option for work within a 40 mile radius. You sound like this idiot I and probably most of the people on this board used to work for. 'You don't like it, leave.' The stock response of a tory simpleton.

Yeah, I'm included in that though, as I can't really take the option of leaving, but that's rather the point I'm making isn't it?

Most people in the real world have to put up with these things in their working life and the only options are to put up with it or leave.

Only a few can strike - the public wouldn't care about the rest of us going on strike, though eventually it would be a social issue its not quite the same as nurses, firemen, postal workers.

My question is why should they abuse that position by being able to strike. That's not really an option for the rest of us who have the choice of accepting what the company do, provided it does not infringe basic employment rights, or taking the risks of walking to the door.

I think a few are misinterpreting my points! As I've said earlier I am also one of those whose company has shat on them, with a good deal of personal loss and diminished future so to see others being able to walk out because they have some issues isn't on.

[Killiehibbie]

Yeah, I'm included in that though, as I can't really take the option of leaving, but that's rather the point I'm making isn't it?

Most people in the real world have to put up with these things in their working life and the only options are to put up with it or leave.

Only a few can strike - the public wouldn't care about the rest of us going on strike, though eventually it would be a social issue its not quite the same as nurses, firemen, postal workers.

My question is why should they abuse that position by being able to strike. That's not really an option for the rest of us who have the choice of accepting what the company do, provided it does not infringe basic employment rights, or taking the risks of walking to the door.

I think a few are misinterpreting my points! As I've said earlier I am also one of those whose company has shat on them, with a good deal of personal loss and diminished future so to see others being able to walk out because they have some issues isn't on.

Join the union and get everyone else to join as well. Show a bit solidarity and it's easier to fight for your rights.

[BravestHibs]

Yeah, I'm included in that though, as I can't really take the option of leaving, but that's rather the point I'm making isn't it?

Most people in the real world have to put up with these things in their working life and the only options are to put up with it or leave.

Only a few can strike - the public wouldn't care about the rest of us going on strike, though eventually it would be a social issue its not quite the same as nurses, firemen, postal workers.

My question is why should they abuse that position by being able to strike. That's not really an option for the rest of us who have the choice of accepting what the company do, provided it does not infringe basic employment rights, or taking the risks of walking to the door.

I think a few are misinterpreting my points! As I've said earlier I am also one of those whose company has shat on them, with a good deal of personal loss and diminished future so to see others being able to walk out because they have some issues isn't on.

Oh I see, you arra peepul!


So, because you don't have the option of striking neither should they? You, are basically rooting for the very type of person who ****ed you over. It's like you've got a bizarre version of Stockholm Syndrome.

[Andy74]

Oh I see, you arra peepul!


So, because you don't have the option of striking neither should they? You, are basically rooting for the very type of person who ****ed you over. It's like you've got a bizarre version of Stockholm Syndrome.

It seems to be the presumtion of those people who can strike that they are about the only people put upon, that they get a worse deal than anyone else, that this type of thing doesn't happen to people in other jobs.

Guess what, it does! Just about every job in every company is the same, and yes, it is galling to see people walking out to get company agreement over such and such percent rise next year when most people aren't getting any. (I know this situation is a wee bit different to that).

So aye, I'm afraid I do feel that those people should not have such an option when other don't. It is abusing a position of doing something directly for the public that will affect them quickly and seriously if they walk out.

[hibsbollah]

Yeah, I'm included in that though, as I can't really take the option of leaving, but that's rather the point I'm making isn't it?

Most people in the real world have to put up with these things in their working life and the only options are to put up with it or leave.

Only a few can strike - the public wouldn't care about the rest of us going on strike, though eventually it would be a social issue its not quite the same as nurses, firemen, postal workers.

My question is why should they abuse that position by being able to strike. That's not really an option for the rest of us who have the choice of accepting what the company do, provided it does not infringe basic employment rights, or taking the risks of walking to the door.

I think a few are misinterpreting my points! As I've said earlier I am also one of those whose company has shat on them, with a good deal of personal loss and diminished future so to see others being able to walk out because they have some issues isn't on.

Honestly, theres so many gaping logical holes in your post I dont know where to start:confused: Maybe the people 'walking out' are doing so so that their workmates (including people like yourself) wouldnt suffer 'personal loss or diminished future'?

[PiemanP]

Oh sorry I've just found a bigger idiot.


I've been a postman for 5 years and the company has never been in such a state

aww boohoo :boo hoo:u go and have your strike then, because no one elses work place is in a bit of a mess right now.

tell you one thing come 9am tomorrow morning i'll be at my desk getting on with life!

[Killiehibbie]

aww boohoo :boo hoo:u go and have your strike then, because no one elses work place is in a bit of a mess right now.

tell you one thing come 9am tomorrow morning i'll be at my desk getting on with life!

But will you still be there at 6pm for 7 1/2 hours wages?

[Andy74]

Honestly, theres so many gaping logical holes in your post I dont know where to start:confused: Maybe the people 'walking out' are doing so so that their workmates (including people like yourself) wouldnt suffer 'personal loss or diminished future'?

Yes, people in those companies or organistations where striking is likely to have some effect because there is direct public interest.

My point is that everyone else can't take that option so they aren't doing it for everyone, they are doing it for thir own situation and quite possibly their colleagues.

Don't tell me the posties are thinking of the likes of bank workers, 99% of which are clerical and admin staff doing longer hours than ever with less pay and benefits to make up for the mistakes of a very small percentage.

How much sympathy would the public have? What are the options for those people?

Aye, the rank and file bankers union would really be having the public lining up in support eh?

I'll bet most posties actually think tough, the guys in charge of banks made mistakes and that they should have been allowed to fail and all the normal punter should lose their jobs. That's what happens in business.

[hibsbollah]

aww boohoo :boo hoo:u go and have your strike then, because no one elses work place is in a bit of a mess right now.

tell you one thing come 9am tomorrow morning i'll be at my desk getting on with life!

Idiot:bye:

[hibsbollah]

Yes, people in those companies or organistations where striking is likely to have some effect becasue there is direct public interest.

My point is that everyone else can't take that option so they aren't doing it for everyone, they are doing it for thir own situation and quite possibly their colleagues.

Don't tell me the posties are thinking of the likes of bank workers, 99% of which are clerical and admin staff doing longer hours than ever with less pay and benefits to make up for the mistakes of a very small percentage.

How much sympathy would the public have? What are the options for those people?

Aye, the rank and file bankers union would really be having the public lining up in support eh?

If thats your point its a totally inane one. Are you saying that because some workplaces like yours have outlawed strike action then any strike action in a different workplace becomes selfish?

For someone who makes so many good posts about football you seem to make alot of dubious ones about strikes and Sir Fred Goodwin:confused:

[Andy74]

But will you still be there at 6pm for 7 1/2 hours wages?

I'd imagine, speaking for me, that I do about 10 hrs a day for 7 hrs wages, frequently. Add in some weekends, for no pay at all, just to try and help keep the business going so that I and others still have a job.

The reward is a pay freeze, some guaranteed payments withdrawn and my pension scheme slashed.

But the public wouldn't care so we get on with it.

[Woody1985]

Is there likely to be weekend work only? :duck:

[hibsbollah]

I'd imagine, speaking for me, that I do about 10 hrs a day for 7 hrs wages, frequently. Add in some weekends, for no pay at all, just to try and help keep the business going so that I and others still have a job.

The reward is a pay freeze, some guaranteed payments withdrawn and my pension scheme slashed.

But the public wouldn't care so we get on with it.

You are accidentally (I assume) making the case for you joining a union!

[Andy74]

If thats your point its a totally inane one. Are you saying that because some workplaces like yours have outlawed strike action then any strike action in a different workplace becomes selfish?

For someone who makes so many good posts about football you seem to make alot of dubious ones about strikes and Sir Fred Goodwin:confused:

It's not becasue they have outlawed them, its because frankly striking just wouldn't be any sort of option as there would be no public backing.

This sort of action is only ever taken now by people who are abusing a specific role that they have becasue the public would be seriously put out if they weren't there.

They are taking advantage of that and I don't believe it is right, that's all.

[Woody1985]

I'd imagine, speaking for me, that I do about 10 hrs a day for 7 hrs wages, frequently. Add in some weekends, for no pay at all, just to try and help keep the business going so that I and others still have a job.

The reward is a pay freeze, some guaranteed payments withdrawn and my pension scheme slashed.

But the public wouldn't care so we get on with it.

Whilst I agree with most of the points you've made on this thread Andy (not committing to all points as I've not read everyone!) I suspect based on previous posts that you hold quite a high position with your company which dictates that you receive a (large) basic salary for the position you hold. This usually dictates that you will receive no OT but you will receive an advanced bonus which is usually double or treble the normal workers.

I appreciate that it's all relative to individuals but was just looking to clarify. A lot of people will be on the breadline with pay freezes and working extra hours. I suspect your contract stipulates that you will work 'for what is in the best interest of the company' and would have been aware of that prior to taking the role as well as being one of the main factors in deciding to take the position.

I could be way off mark but that's my understanding.

[hibsbollah]

It's not becasue they have outlawed them, its because frankly striking just wouldn't be any sort of option as there would be no public backing.

This sort of action is only ever taken now by people who are abusing a specific role that they have becasue the public would be seriously put out if they weren't there.

They are taking advantage of that and I don't believe it is right, that's all.

A strike doesnt need 'public backing' to be successful, Where do you get that idea from?

The postmen are 'abusing a specific role'?:bitchy: Words fail me. You make some good football related posts Andy, but i cant get my head round your thinking on this.

[Andy74]

You are accidentally (I assume) making the case for you joining a union!

I'm not. I'm saying that this is the reality of working. We all have our gripes. Being in a union makes no odds because we do not have the public by the balls, at least not in the direct perception of the public so there'd be no point.

I don't believe the public should be disadvantaged by my gripes, same as others have, my basic employment rights are respected, the rest is commerical decisions and calls being taken on what they can get away with in the market. The fact I am still here shows they have the balance right as I haven't walked due to not being able to afford to in a subdued market.

I don't agree that others should have another option which is to cause inconvenience to the public so that they can get their way.

[PiemanP]

But will you still be there at 6pm for 7 1/2 hours wages?

If needs must, then yes.

I dont go moaning about it though. If I didnt like it i'd go stack shelves in my local asda for 30 hours a week and no more.

I want to make my way up the career ladder though, and working more than the designated hours is just something i'm going to have to do, i dont like it but accept it.

I bet there are a lot of jobs which are going through a far worse situation than the posties, however they roll their sleaves up and get on with life.

[Andy74]

Whilst I agree with most of the points you've made on this thread Andy (not committing to all points as I've not read everyone!) I suspect based on previous posts that you hold quite a high position with your company which dictates that you receive a (large) basic salary for the position you hold. This usually dictates that you will receive no OT but you will receive an advanced bonus which is usually double or treble the normal workers.

I appreciate that it's all relative to individuals but was just looking to clarify. A lot of people will be on the breadline with pay freezes and working extra hours. I suspect your contract stipulates that you will work 'for what is in the best interest of the company' and would have been aware of that prior to taking the role as well as being one of the main factors in deciding to take the position.

I could be way off mark but that's my understanding.

I don't, I just hold a position where I have certain accesses way above what would be normal for my level!

In fact I'm in that pile that fared worst, the slightly lower graded got a top up of basic salary as they were deemed to be more reliant on bonuses etc. the higher graded can probably cope. At my grade plently of the lower graded are actually paid far more so I've been overtaken by most!

I get no bonus guaranteed and in fact none at all in current times. and in normal times the bonus is not what you read about, just a few hundred quid or so, maybe more, and totally dependant on exceptional performance.

I work in an area that is crucial for everything the bank is currently through and we are doing long hours and really all that we can and will get out of it is the fact we will still be here.

Could you see us all walking out doing anyone any good??!

It's a fairly normal situation though in most businesses so surely it can be seen why we might be a bit peeved that certain people just seem to be able to walk and they get some of what they are asking for at least?

[ginger_rice]

Well I for one will be supporting the posties....not only are these guys fighting to preserve their terms and conditions of employment, they are also fighting to save a universal postal service, the key word being service.

Do any of you honestly believe that Mandleson and co haven't had some input into the RM management stance, and that privatisation of the Royal mail is the final goal, the constant cuts and closures should make it pretty plain that this is a public service being pared to the bone to make it attractive to the private sector. Once the likes of TNT and DHL take control they will simply carve up the business and ditch the less profitable parts..."You want a letter delivered to the Western Isles? sorry we don't deliver north of Perth"...or First Class post will be 20p in central London, and £5 to Inverness.

Cards on the table here, I am a union official, I firmly believe in collective bargaining, and the right to withdraw labour, I can also assure you that a decision such as this is never taken lightly these days, don't forget the people taking the action do not get paid for the days they strike.

The 30k temporary jobs to me are straight out of the US book of strike busting, and a tactic like in a public sector company that can only IMHO have been authorized at the highest level.

As for all of you who are of the belief "if you don't like it then there's the door" I really feel sorry for you, no one should be treated like **** at their place of work, no one should be bullied by management, everyone should have the right to come to their work and feel secure and valued. As already pointed out this is not the 70's or 80's decent management should value their workforce, talk to their workforce, take on board the views and suggestions of their workforce....ask the posties, do you want to take the RM back to the loss making mess it was in 30 years ago, or do you want a modern efficient service which will deliver the needs of all sections of society, I reckon I already know the answer to that.

Oh a guys, topics like this are by their nature very emotive, so please can we just make our points, and accept that others have differing views without having to call each other tw*ts etc?

[Hibeebob]

Way to go, getting the public on your side.

Dont think that is possible FR, most folk are against us anyway mate regardless of the facts.



aww boohoo u go and have your strike then, because no one elses work place is in a bit of a mess right now.

tell you one thing come 9am tomorrow morning i'll be at my desk getting on with life!


If you are willing to work for nothing mate you deserve what you get. Its not charity work. Dispite what you might think we do not want to go on strike, we dont want to lose wages it is a last resort. If you are happy to be treated like dog dirt then good for you. however to say that folk should just get on with it and work for nowt is the most ludicrous thing i have ever heard.

Those sweat shop kids in third world countries should just ''deal with it eh''
(exaggeration I know before you start)


Only a few can strike - the public wouldn't care about the rest of us going on strike, though eventually it would be a social issue its not quite the same as nurses, firemen, postal workers.

Again this is a contradiction to what we are finding out on a daily basis, we were told no one cared about when they got there mail, then no-one stopped moaning about the time of deliveries.

We were told we are not a public service anymore, now we are told that our strikes are going to disrupt people who ''rely'' on us.

Apologies Coco for using the word erse, I was a bit upset. This is not a trivial situation for us, it is our livelyhood and some folk would do well to remember that before telling us to basically ''shape up or ship out''

Several times i have considered resigning from the union, due to the fact i think we may lose the fight, also i rellly need the money to feed my family and pay my mortgage. Add the fact that the job I do is a 10-6 shift not really effected by the changes and why should I strike ?

Because any company simply has to give a fair deal to employees.

[Killiehibbie]

If needs must, then yes.

I dont go moaning about it though. If I didnt like it i'd go stack shelves in my local asda for 30 hours a week and no more.

I want to make my way up the career ladder though, and working more than the designated hours is just something i'm going to have to do, i dont like it but accept it.

I bet there are a lot of jobs which are going through a far worse situation than the posties, however they roll their sleaves up and get on with life.

You'll never be mistaken for a hun with a nose that colour.:agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Dont think that is possible FR, most folk are against us anyway mate regardless of the facts.


I'm with you, but you can't blame people for being hacked off at how bad the postal service is - regardless of whose fault it is.

[puff the dragon]

From what I am reading/viewing - the CWU sem to be a bunch of massive Vaginas.

They seem to want to create a new miners strike to create a legend for themselves with the working classes.

The miners were hammered - and they needed to be. You can't stall progress.

I'd take all the CWU bosses, fire them from the Roayl Mail, take their pensions away and refuse them benefits. These pathetic 'scab' tactics are going to force posties who don't want to strike into striking otherwise they will be branded scabs for ever.

There are still scab families in mining towns you know - even tho the miner is dead.

Trade Unions have no place today. All shop stewards etc are wannabe Scargill flanges!

[Hibbyradge]

3 - Hundred & forty six pounds - average weekly pay of a postman
3 - Hundred & twenty one million pounds was profit of Royal Mail last year
3 - million pounds was pay packet of Adam Crozier, including two bonuses
3 - thousand pounds is price RM started charging businesses to receive post before noon this year.
3 - pence is rise of price of first class stamp next year.

30,000 temporary workers being brought in.

Posties only earn £146 a week? :confused:

That's just over £7500 p.a. I don't believe that.

http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Postman_2155

[BravestHibs]

aww boohoo :boo hoo:u go and have your strike then, because no one elses work place is in a bit of a mess right now.

tell you one thing come 9am tomorrow morning i'll be at my desk getting on with life!

I don't think you fully understand the ins and outs of striking do you?

I feel sorry for you my wee pal if that's what you think life is. Why don't you do a bit of research and find out what striking means in other countries. What striking meant in this country during the 80's. I can understand that being the age you are you're probably not that clued up on this kind of thing and this board is about opinions and all but you'd do yourself no harm doing a bit of research before flying in with a 'strongly held belief' about the postal strikes when you are in fact almost completely clueless about what it actually means. You are making yourself look silly.

[Hibeebob]

Posties only earn £146 a week?

That's just over £7500 p.a. I don't believe that

I presume you missed the 3 on bb orig post.

Although I work a 40 hour full time contract with driving alowance and 5 years service and i dont get 346 a week so dunno where boop got those figures.


The CWU in my Arpinon would fight over the opening of an envelope, they rush in feet first at every opportunity. I have hated being a member on occasion and have dissagreed with them on several.

However . . ... This time they have a point, three fazes of moderisation have come and gone and now, we have went along with them even though it has involved cutbacks in an industry where they are not required, Faze four will destroy the mail service as the public know it. Mail at 2pm ? Dont even think about it you'll be lucky to get your mail every two days.


My point is that folk talk about the post as being crap. Further cutbacks are going to make the problem worse, however when the workforce are trying the very last option to maintain a decent worthwhile service for the public (even losing income to try to achieve this) we are told get on with it or leave.
Nice

[AndyP]

I'm not. I'm saying that this is the reality of working. We all have our gripes. Being in a union makes no odds because we do not have the public by the balls, at least not in the direct perception of the public so there'd be no point.

I don't believe the public should be disadvantaged by my gripes, same as others have, my basic employment rights are respected, the rest is commerical decisions and calls being taken on what they can get away with in the market. The fact I am still here shows they have the balance right as I haven't walked due to not being able to afford to in a subdued market.

I don't agree that others should have another option which is to cause inconvenience to the public so that they can get their way.

Apathetic tosh, IMO. Using your analogy there would have been no requirement for the introduction of the HASAWA, no working time directives, no drivers hours etc, all of these were driven by workers in the private sector.

The problem gets worse when companies disregard workers contracts and enforce changes to working practices and T&Cs without consultation because the workers don't have enough union members to prevent it. One of these days you may find that all these little errosions that are happening become standard practice and your quality of life (not to mention living wage) goes down the toilet.

[AndyP]

As for all of you who are of the belief "if you don't like it then there's the door" I really feel sorry for you, no one should be treated like **** at their place of work, no one should be bullied by management, everyone should have the right to come to their work and feel secure and valued. As already pointed out this is not the 70's or 80's decent management should value their workforce, talk to their workforce, take on board the views and suggestions of their workforce....ask the posties, do you want to take the RM back to the loss making mess it was in 30 years ago, or do you want a modern efficient service which will deliver the needs of all sections of society, I reckon I already know the answer to that.


I'm not a big union man by any stretch of the imagination however I do think that sums up a basic covenant that should be upheld between employer and employee:agree:

[Hibeebob]

I'm with you, but you can't blame people for being hacked off at how bad the postal service is - regardless of whose fault it is.

Appreciate that mate but the point is that we have questioned every decision that has gone toward making RM the joke that it is, no one has listened. Now before RM takes its final step to rid the UK of a daily ''public'' service we have to speak out, even a compromise on some of the cutbacks planned would be a start.

Pieman.

Why cos i dont go through life moaning at every possible opportunity?

I'm not going to go into personal insults...not what message boards are for..

You are moaning about us so thats that knocked on the head then eh ?

Personal Insults are a big childish eh ? You would rather type ''boo hoo'' during a topical debate about peoples livelyhoods.
Aye but you'll be at your desk at 9.00am the morn making tea for the adults. Been an 18 year old office monkey mate you'll learn a lot about life in the years to come.
Andy74 has a different view to me on this subject, however he was able to discuss in a grown up manner, this means I respect his views and not yours.

[Hibeebob]

In fact I'm getting out of this debate now. Too close to home for me. Apologies to anyone I have offended brox.

[BroxburnHibee]

In fact I'm getting out of this debate now. Too close to home for me. Apologies to anyone I have offended brox.

No need for apologies Bob - I understand that feelings can run high - FWIW I've got a good friend who's a postie too, he was telling me all about this just the other day.

[Hibbyradge]

I presume you missed the 3 on bb orig post.






Sorry, yes, I missed the 3.

[Ed De Gramo]

'Scabs' because people are wanting to make money to put food on the table and xmas time....:hmmm:

[bingo70]

'Scabs' because people are wanting to make money to put food on the table and xmas time....:hmmm:

Rather have people committed to the cause than slackers...:agree:

I'm no great supporter of strikes, but as i don't really know that much about it i thought it was probably best to stay out the debate.

Maybe you should do the same here, you clearly don't understand what its about and bear in mind that a lot of the guys that are about to go on strike are members on here calling them 'slackers' is outrageous.

[Danderhall Hibs]

'Scabs' because people are wanting to make money to put food on the table and xmas time....:hmmm:

Rather have people committed to the cause than slackers...:agree:

Why do you bother? You lack knowledge (on every topic) and post ***** like that.

[ArabHibee]

I'd imagine, speaking for me, that I do about 10 hrs a day for 7 hrs wages, frequently. Add in some weekends, for no pay at all, just to try and help keep the business going so that I and others still have a job.

The reward is a pay freeze, some guaranteed payments withdrawn and my pension scheme slashed.

But the public wouldn't care so we get on with it.

Welcome to my world. And why is it like that? Because I work in the private sector and no union to speak about. Company gets away with bloody murder in my opinion. And if it's so bad at your work, why don't you leave, like your telling all the posties to?


It's not becasue they have outlawed them, its because frankly striking just wouldn't be any sort of option as there would be no public backing.

This sort of action is only ever taken now by people who are abusing a specific role that they have becasue the public would be seriously put out if they weren't there.

They are taking advantage of that and I don't believe it is right, that's all.

That's utter nonsense. You don't need public backing to strike. My father striked on a few occassions when he was at work, it had no public backing. I think you are slightly jealous that you have no union to back you up in the crap place that you work.


I'm with you, but you can't blame people for being hacked off at how bad the postal service is - regardless of whose fault it is.

I'm well happy with the postal service, I get my post just after 9am, my postie is the beez neez!!:thumbsup:


From what I am reading/viewing - the CWU sem to be a bunch of massive Vaginas.

They seem to want to create a new miners strike to create a legend for themselves with the working classes.

The miners were hammered - and they needed to be. You can't stall progress.

I'd take all the CWU bosses, fire them from the Roayl Mail, take their pensions away and refuse them benefits. These pathetic 'scab' tactics are going to force posties who don't want to strike into striking otherwise they will be branded scabs for ever.

There are still scab families in mining towns you know - even tho the miner is dead.

Trade Unions have no place today. All shop stewards etc are wannabe Scargill flanges!
You sunshine, are just at the wind up - just like you were on the thread about students. Away back under the rock you crawled out of. :bye:

[Hibeebob]

Ok one last comment on the subject before I get in trouble off my bosses. I worked in rbs for several years and would quite often "stay back" to help out when required. The prospect of being able to visit the coffee machine and have a break and a blether is quite different to spending another hour stomping about in the snow with 15 kilo on yer back unpaid.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Where to start?

Why don't you stat by explaining to me what more right they have to strike than your average punter for any other company?

Who has said they have more right to strike than anyone else? I don't think anyone has even come close to suggesting that. The right to withdraw your labour is universal - or should be.


I think other comparing it to their own circumstances if very relevant because outside these outdated institutions, in the real world, this is what we all put up with, or we leave.

Working longer hours for the same or less pay? Aye, who desn't? Most people have to - it's the only way the work can be done as generally companies get away with empoying the minimum people they can. In my line of work I'm busier now than ever and I'm getting less pay and benefits in real terms with no right to any annual increase.

In public service people would seemingly refuse to work in these cirumstances.

Unions are 'outdated institutions'?

If you're willing to accept assaults on your pay/conditions that's fine, but don't castigate people who are not willing to accept it.

If, however, you are not willing to accept it, you still have the right to join or form a union and engage in collective bargaining with your fellow workers. It isn't rocket science.


It's a different world and in this day and age public sympathy will be virtually nowt. You find now that in the jobs that people find it acceptable to strike they have far better pension schemes than those in the big companies as commefrcial decisions were made on those ages agao, they still have some type of raise each year as they'd walk out if they didn't get it, and there is far more of an attitude that says you need to take all your breaks and lunches.

Public sympathy can be important but it's fair from the be-all-and-end-all of a strike.

Again as above, you do not just have to accept your lot or move on.


In general now the rest of us put up with all this without having the need to strike - we all know where the door is if we aren't happy with anyhting. Why should anyone else be any different?

I'm sorry, but that passage is too much.

Absolutely disgusting.


Your idea of the real world is probably eating cavier whilst punching a fox in the legs if you think anyone can just up and leave their job, just like that. It's not as simple as that and when people are being shat upon from people who have too much power than it can only be a good thing that the workers have some form of rights and a forum to raise their issues.

I don't think this got the proper level of appreciation.


Well I for one will be supporting the posties....not only are these guys fighting to preserve their terms and conditions of employment, they are also fighting to save a universal postal service, the key word being service.

Do any of you honestly believe that Mandleson and co haven't had some input into the RM management stance, and that privatisation of the Royal mail is the final goal, the constant cuts and closures should make it pretty plain that this is a public service being pared to the bone to make it attractive to the private sector. Once the likes of TNT and DHL take control they will simply carve up the business and ditch the less profitable parts..."You want a letter delivered to the Western Isles? sorry we don't deliver north of Perth"...or First Class post will be 20p in central London, and £5 to Inverness.

Cards on the table here, I am a union official, I firmly believe in collective bargaining, and the right to withdraw labour, I can also assure you that a decision such as this is never taken lightly these days, don't forget the people taking the action do not get paid for the days they strike.

The 30k temporary jobs to me are straight out of the US book of strike busting, and a tactic like in a public sector company that can only IMHO have been authorized at the highest level.

As for all of you who are of the belief "if you don't like it then there's the door" I really feel sorry for you, no one should be treated like **** at their place of work, no one should be bullied by management, everyone should have the right to come to their work and feel secure and valued. As already pointed out this is not the 70's or 80's decent management should value their workforce, talk to their workforce, take on board the views and suggestions of their workforce....ask the posties, do you want to take the RM back to the loss making mess it was in 30 years ago, or do you want a modern efficient service which will deliver the needs of all sections of society, I reckon I already know the answer to that.

Oh a guys, topics like this are by their nature very emotive, so please can we just make our points, and accept that others have differing views without having to call each other tw*ts etc?

Great post.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Ok one last comment on the subject before I get in trouble off my bosses. I worked in rbs for several years and would quite often "stay back" to help out when required. The prospect of being able to visit the coffee machine and have a break and a blether is quite different to spending another hour stomping about in the snow with 15 kilo on yer back unpaid.

As an aside, at this might seem a bit odd, is there anything that the public can do to help yous out a little?

[Steve-O]

That's what's wrong with the country . People are prepared to do all kinds of overtime, increased work, etc without being paid for it. Why do you go to work? I always went to work to get paid for the job done. If a boss wants any more he pays you for it if he doesn't pay he doesn't get his targets met. You let them walk all over you they run you into the ground then get the next mug to take your place.

100% agree.

[Steve-O]

This striking nonsense gets on my t1ts.

In the real workld...


, in the real world, this is what we all put up with, or we leave.

It's a different world...




Most people in the real world...

:rolleyes::blah:


I'd imagine, speaking for me, that I do about 10 hrs a day for 7 hrs wages, frequently. Add in some weekends, for no pay at all, just to try and help keep the business going so that I and others still have a job.

The reward is a pay freeze, some guaranteed payments withdrawn and my pension scheme slashed.

But the public wouldn't care so we get on with it.

So you work maybe 15 hours a week PLUS weekends for free, and this is your 'real world' that you expect people to just accept?

Just listen to yourself FFS.

Too often I see companies taking the piss out of workers. Exactly why would anyone do 20 hours work a week for nowt? What do companies ever give people in return for such things? Sweet F.A. is usually the answer. Any company can GTF if they EVER think I'd effectively work 3 days per week for free every week.

[Steve-O]

I'm no great supporter of strikes, but as i don't really know that much about it i thought it was probably best to stay out the debate.

Maybe you should do the same here, you clearly don't understand what its about and bear in mind that a lot of the guys that are about to go on strike are members on here calling them 'slackers' is outrageous.

Correct. Another pile of sheeeeite from said poster.

[lyonhibs]

To be honest, there seem to be 2 issues here. 1st of all the Posties have the right to strike, which is thereotically universal. Whether people think it is "right" or not makes naff all difference. If the Union and the Government cannot come to an agreement, they are going on strike - pretty clear cut.

They aren't slackers, they are just excercising a right

However, it's the treatment of the temporary workers who are merely seeking a few month employment that gets me. Unless I'm mistaken, was the term "scab" not popularised to describe existing coal miners that decided not to join their colleagues on the famous strikes, and had to walk past their own mates/colleagues to get to work.

How is that comparable to temporary workers with no previous ties to the Royal Mail, who are not members of the Union that has called the strike??

Unless the original "scabs" were actually temporary coal miners employed in response to all the permanent coal miners striking, then the use of the term "scabs" and the mooted "possible problems and animosity" towards them that I'm sure I read about from "normal" posties/ the Union are ridiculous - IMO

[Betty Boop]

Ok one last comment on the subject before I get in trouble off my bosses. I worked in rbs for several years and would quite often "stay back" to help out when required. The prospect of being able to visit the coffee machine and have a break and a blether is quite different to spending another hour stomping about in the snow with 15 kilo on yer back unpaid.

Hi Bob, why are Royal Mail forced to deliver TNT's mail?

[LiverpoolHibs]

However, it's the treatment of the temporary workers who are merely seeking a few month employment that gets me. Unless I'm mistaken, was the term "scab" not popularised to describe existing coal miners that decided not to join their colleagues on the famous strikes, and had to walk past their own mates/colleagues to get to work.

How is that comparable to temporary workers with no previous ties to the Royal Mail, who are not members of the Union that has called the strike??

Unless the original "scabs" were actually temporary coal miners employed in response to all the permanent coal miners striking, then the use of the term "scabs" and the mooted "possible problems and animosity" towards them that I'm sure I read about from "normal" posties/ the Union are ridiculous - IMO

Why do you keep saying 'coal miners'? The term scab applies to anyone involved in strike-breaking labour of any kind.

I think I'm right in saying that R.M. don't usually recruit the temporary Christmas staff until late November - these people are, explicitly, being brought in to cover the strike. They are scabs.

[Killiehibbie]

Hi Bob, why are Royal Mail forced to deliver TNT's mail?

I've wondered the same thing. If a competitor comes into the marketplace let him compete on equal terms with his own post boxes, offices, delivery staff, etc.

[lapsedhibee]

I've wondered the same thing. If a competitor comes into the marketplace let him compete on equal terms with his own post boxes, offices, delivery staff, etc.

Eh, naw. Have twenty different gas pipelines into your house, twenty different electric cables, twenty sets of railway lines up and down the country, twenty differently coloured pillarboxes on each street corner?

[H18sry]

Hi Bob, why are Royal Mail forced to deliver TNT's mail?

TNT provided a price to the companies that they deliver for, then they agreed a price for RM to distribute the bulk mailings, which is obviously cheaper than RM could quote themselves , TNT take the mail from x sort it into area's then deliver it to the mail center who then deliver it to the sorting offices to be resorted, before being delivered.

[Killiehibbie]

Eh, naw. Have twenty different gas pipelines into your house, twenty different electric cables, twenty sets of railway lines up and down the country, twenty differently coloured pillarboxes on each street corner?

As has been said these other companies pay royal mail for the final delivery but they only pick up from businesses they find to be profitable. TNT and the like are not interested in providing a national service. Just like when buses were deregulated some people end up with no service at all. As for gas i'm sure the owner of the pipeline gets paid for what goes through it whether or not they own the gas.

[Betty Boop]

TNT provided a price to the companies that they deliver for, then they agreed a price for RM to distribute the bulk mailings, which is obviously cheaper than RM could quote themselves , TNT take the mail from x sort it into area's then deliver it to the mail center who then deliver it to the sorting offices to be resorted, before being delivered.

Cheers! Sounds complicated. So Royal mail are being shafted twice? :confused:

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------


As has been said these other companies pay royal mail for the final delivery but they only pick up from businesses they find to be profitable. TNT and the like are not interested in providing a national service. Just like when buses were deregulated some people end up with no service at all. As for gas i'm sure the owner of the pipeline gets paid for what goes through it whether or not they own the gas.

:agree:

[BravestHibs]

Eh, naw. Have twenty different gas pipelines into your house, twenty different electric cables, twenty sets of railway lines up and down the country, twenty differently coloured pillarboxes on each street corner?

It wouldn't be fair. I work in the telecoms industry and when deregulation happened the only fair way to go about things was to allow other companies to utilise BTs infrastructure as they had established said infrastructure under effectively, monopoly conditions when BT were a nationalised industry. It's exactly the same for Royal Mail and its competitors. If each company had to start from scratch they'd be 60 years behind RM/BT and I'm pretty sure this wouldn't slide with the monopolies and merger commission.

[lapsedhibee]

It wouldn't be fair. I work in the telecoms industry and when deregulation happened the only fair way to go about things was to allow other companies to utilise BTs infrastructure as they had established said infrastructure under effectively, monopoly conditions when BT were a nationalised industry. It's exactly the same for Royal Mail and its competitors. If each company had to start from scratch they'd be 60 years behind RM/BT and I'm pretty sure this wouldn't slide with the monopolies and merger commission.

Exactly. No difference between RM delivering TNT mail and the structure of all these other industries. Think I might be right in saying that the only industry where starting from scratch has been tried is telecoms, where for a brief period United Artists/Telewest dug up every pavement in Edinburgh and wanted to put their own new cable into every building. Don't think that experiment wholly worked, and more competitive pressure is exerted on BT now by other carriers using the BT/Openreach infrastructure.

[BravestHibs]

Exactly. No difference between RM delivering TNT mail and the structure of all these other industries. Think I might be right in saying that the only industry where starting from scratch has been tried is telecoms, where for a brief period United Artists/Telewest dug up every pavement in Edinburgh and wanted to put their own new cable into every building. Don't think that experiment wholly worked, and more competitive pressure is exerted on BT now by other carriers using the BT/Openreach infrastructure.

NTL:Telewest is now the business arm of Virgin Media who look after soley residential customers. NTL:Telewest are the only company who can directly compete with BT using our own infrastructure but we still need to use BTs from time to time.

[ancient hibee]

I see that today the Scottish Government has taken away part of a big contract from RM.

[Hibs90]

I'm struggling to see how the term 'scab' isn't justified? What's a scab if they aren't? What's the relevance of them being 'legally employed'?


So I've gained temporary employment over xmas with the Royal Mail, does that make me a scab?

:bye::jamboak:

[Killiehibbie]

So I've gained temporary employment over xmas with the Royal Mail, does that make me a scab?

:bye::jamboak:

The question is will you be happy doing twice the work for half the pay for the next 40 years? To a lot of people it's about a lot more than Christmas drink money.

[Woody1985]

Do they have weekend only work available? I am absolutely rooked.

I appreciate the points made by the existing workers but when it comes down to not having two beans to rub together then people are going to take the jobs.

I also gained a good insight into how the TNT operate. Although the company I work for use them for business mail I always through they delievered it directly and it wasn't the RM.

I receive some personal mail via TNT but never really thought about it being the same postie who delivered it. Crazy to expect RM to deliver this mail for less money.

[lyonhibs]

Why do you keep saying 'coal miners'? The term scab applies to anyone involved in strike-breaking labour of any kind.

I think I'm right in saying that R.M. don't usually recruit the temporary Christmas staff until late November - these people are, explicitly, being brought in to cover the strike. They are scabs.

Ok, fair enough, but did the term not become really popularised during the Miners strikes of the 80's??

Anyway, that's besides the point. Getting into the semantics of the phrase "strike breaking" that, to me, indicates that you think these temporary workers were in some way complicit with the original strike - which would have required them to be part of original strike movement - and are now BREAKING that strike by working for the Royal Mail. This is - clearly - a pile of old bollocks.

They are strike breakers in that there presence, working and earning money, is contrary to the current actions of those posties who have chosen to go on strike, but that does not make the temporary workers bad people, or "unloyal" to a cause they were never loyal to in the 1st place.

Certainly not worthy of a kick to the bollocks, being subjected to verbal intimidation etc etc.

It's an ugly situation for the temporary workers to be brought into, but the mail between now and Christmas won't deliver itself.

[LiverpoolHibs]

So I've gained temporary employment over xmas with the Royal Mail, does that make me a scab?

:bye::jamboak:

If you work any strike days, then yes.


Ok, fair enough, but did the term not become really popularised during the Miners strikes of the 80's??

No.


Anyway, that's besides the point. Getting into the semantics of the phrase "strike breaking" that, to me, indicates that you think these temporary workers were in some way complicit with the original strike - which would have required them to be part of original strike movement - and are now BREAKING that strike by working for the Royal Mail. This is - clearly - a pile of old bollocks.

No, no it isn't. A scab/strike-breaker isn't just someone who continues to work while his colleagues strike, it is anyone who breaks the strike. It's got nothing to do with their 'complicity' in the strike.

If they work the strike days, they're scabs. It's easy.


They are strike breakers in that there presence, working and earning money, is contrary to the current actions of those posties who have chosen to go on strike, but that does not make the temporary workers bad people, or "unloyal" to a cause they were never loyal to in the 1st place.

Certainly not worthy of a kick to the bollocks, being subjected to verbal intimidation etc etc.

It's an ugly situation for the temporary workers to be brought into, but the mail between now and Christmas won't deliver itself.

As I've said before, I've got no idea what some people think the point of a strike is. Really strange.

[col02]

So I've gained temporary employment over xmas with the Royal Mail, does that make me a scab?

:bye::jamboak:

Don't let a few militant types put you off doing work that will give you extra money over the festive period! Be a few folk who will be able to give their families a decent xmas due to getting temporary work with Royal mail how anyone can resent that is beyond me!

[AndyP]

If they work the strike days, they're scabs. It's easy.



So, hypothetically speaking, but only because Mill Hill couldn't handle the volume, if the government was to bring in the military (they have postmen too you know) would you be for calling them scabs.

By that reckoning I've broken more picket lines than you've had strike days :cool2:

[ginger_rice]

So, hypothetically speaking, but only because Mill Hill couldn't handle the volume, if the government was to bring in the military (they have postmen too you know) would you be for calling them scabs.

By that reckoning I've broken more picket lines than you've had strike days :cool2:

Slightly different argument though I reckon Andy, been there myself on the Green Goddesses. Military are usually brought in where there is a risk to human life, BTW hasn't the RE operation at Mill Hill been outsourced now?


Don't lose sight of the fact that RM announced the recruitment of the temporary workers,(at double the usual number) at a time when all and sundry were trying to get both sides in the dispute back to the negotiating table, to me that smacks of brinkmanship and upping the ante, and is indicative of the bullish nature of RM management, perhaps they are hoping to scare the posties back to work?

[hibsdaft]

So I've gained temporary employment over xmas with the Royal Mail, does that make me a scab?

:bye::jamboak:

how did you get that shift out of interest, and will you be respecting the strike?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker

[PiemanP]

So I've gained temporary employment over xmas with the Royal Mail, does that make me a scab?

:bye::jamboak:


If you work any strike days, then yes.




:bitchy: now thats head in the sand time!


he's taking the opportunity to earn more money during an expensive time of year. Thats no scab in my book!

[LiverpoolHibs]

:bitchy: now thats head in the sand time!


he's taking the opportunity to earn more money during an expensive time of year. Thats no scab in my book!

Honestly, this is getting really odd.

What is a scab 'in your book'?

[ginger_rice]

:bitchy: now thats head in the sand time!


he's taking the opportunity to earn more money during an expensive time of year. Thats no scab in my book!

No one's suggesting people shouldn't take on temporary employment in the run up to Christmas, however taking a job where it's obvious you are going to be used to break the balls of the guys who normally do the work is a no brainer to me.....try Tescos instead, much warmer and you carry a lot less.

[Ed De Gramo]

Don't let a few militant types put you off doing work that will give you extra money over the festive period! Be a few folk who will be able to give their families a decent xmas due to getting temporary work with Royal mail how anyone can resent that is beyond me!

:top marks

[lyonhibs]

If you work any strike days, then yes.



No- fair enough, I stand corrected.



No, no it isn't. A scab/strike-breaker isn't just someone who continues to work while his colleagues strike, it is anyone who breaks the strike. It's got nothing to do with their 'complicity' in the strike.

If they work the strike days, they're scabs. It's easy.



As I've said before, I've got no idea what some people think the point of a strike is. Really strange - I wasn't born yesterday thank you very much. I know perfectly well that the aim of a strike is to disrupt the service normally provided by the strikers in the event that they feel their grievances/demands are not being met by their employers following a negociation process. Obviously this disruption theoretically raises the profile of their supposed "plight", ideally their cause gains public support and the opposing party in the strike feels pressured to give in to some/all of the strikee's demands.

My point is, given as mail correspondence may often be of the type that cannot wait until the Union and the Royal Mail have sorted themselves out, how is it ok for the temporary workers employed to maintain a decent level of service to be - and I quote - given a "good kick to the bollocks" and called "complete ********s"???

What kind of happy world do you live in where people should all - regardless of whether they were employed by the employer at the time of strike action being called - unite together against the big, bad government/employer (who are, of course, ALWAYS, without exception, the baddies :rolleyes:) even if it's to the detriment of their own personal financial situation??

How do you pay your rent and rates if not with money earned through work/repayable loans?? Could you give me the contact details of this magical Money Fairy that allows you to live a comfortable existence and maintain such a hard line socialist stance regarding people who dare to take on temporary employment at a time when the job market is more or less in the toilet??

I normally agree with the jist - if not always the finer details - of stuff you post on here - but not this time. I'd hope you'll get over that, because I'm enjoying the debate thus far :greengrin

[Ed De Gramo]

Honestly, this is getting really odd.

What is a scab 'in your book'?

1 a dry, rough protective crust that forms over a cut or wound during healing.
• mange or a similar skin disease in animals.
• [usu. with adj. ] any of a number of fungal diseases of plants in which rough patches develop, esp. on apples and potatoes.

:bye:

[LiverpoolHibs]

I wasn't born yesterday thank you very much. I know perfectly well that the aim of a strike is to disrupt the service normally provided by the strikers in the event that they feel their grievances/demands are not being met by their employers following a negociation process. Obviously this disruption theoretically raises the profile of their supposed "plight", ideally their cause gains public support and the opposing party in the strike feels pressured to give in to some/all of the strikee's demands.

Ok.


My point is, given as mail correspondence may often be of the type that cannot wait until the Union and the Royal Mail have sorted themselves out, how is it ok for the temporary workers employed to maintain a decent level of service to be - and I quote - given a "good kick to the bollocks" and called "complete ********s"???

What sort of mail cannot wait two days?

If you believe that the position that the Royal Mail workers have adopted is correct and that their strike should be supported, why would anyone support actions of management and individuals to undercut the effectiveness of the strike. As I keep saying, it does not make any sense.

The fundamental point of pretty much any strike is to ensure that a 'decent level of service' cannot be maintained, otherwise what's the point? This is what I'm struggling to understand, I'd probably prefer to argue with someone who fully opposes the strike than this vague, wishy-washy nonsense.


What kind of happy world do you live in where people should all - regardless of whether they were employed by the employer at the time of strike action being called - unite together against the big, bad government/employer (who are, of course, ALWAYS, without exception, the baddies :rolleyes:) even if it's to the detriment of their own personal financial situation??

Well I'd like to believe that there are still people who believe in certain principles which they wouldn't compromise even if their own personal circumstances would be improved if they did. So, that sort of world?

As for the section in brackets. You could always read up on the situation and decide, properly, 'which side you're on'?


How do you pay your rent and rates if not with money earned through work/repayable loans?? Could you give me the contact details of this magical Money Fairy that allows you to live a comfortable existence and maintain such a hard line socialist stance regarding people who dare to take on temporary employment at a time when the job market is more or less in the toilet??

There's not really a lot of point replying to that.


I normally agree with the jist - if not always the finer details - of stuff you post on here - but not this time. I'd hope you'll get over that, because I'm enjoying the debate thus far :greengrin

I can't say I am. It's been fairly depressing thus far.


1 a dry, rough protective crust that forms over a cut or wound during healing.
• mange or a similar skin disease in animals.
• [usu. with adj. ] any of a number of fungal diseases of plants in which rough patches develop, esp. on apples and potatoes.

:bye:

Erm, yeah, well done...

[Danderhall Hibs]

:bitchy: now thats head in the sand time!


he's taking the opportunity to earn more money during an expensive time of year. Thats no scab in my book!

At the expense of others. These guys have to live with this - he just wants some beer money for Christmas. Very selfish and thoughtless.

And a scab.


No one's suggesting people shouldn't take on temporary employment in the run up to Christmas, however taking a job where it's obvious you are going to be used to break the balls of the guys who normally do the work is a no brainer to me.....try Tescos instead, much warmer and you carry a lot less.

:agree: Spot on.



1 a dry, rough protective crust that forms over a cut or wound during healing.
• mange or a similar skin disease in animals.
• [usu. with adj. ] any of a number of fungal diseases of plants in which rough patches develop, esp. on apples and potatoes.

:bye:

:bitchy: FFS.

[hibsbollah]

It's been fairly depressing thus far.




You should have a look at the racism thread on the main board if you think this is depressing:rolleyes: I might just take out a subscription to the Mail, switch on Question Time tonight and put my head in the oven...(before tearing up my union card of course)

[Ed De Gramo]

At the expense of others. These guys have to live with this - he just wants some beer money for Christmas. Very selfish and thoughtless.

And a scab.



:agree: Spot on.




:bitchy: FFS.

:blah:

[lapsedhibee]

I might just take out a subscription to the Mail, switch on Question Time tonight and put my head in the oven...(before tearing up my union card of course)

Nick Griffin's brought Question Time forward by 24 hours to demonstrate that he's exactly the man to get the trains running on time. :agree:

[hibsbollah]

Nick Griffin's brought Question Time forward by 24 hours to demonstrate that he's exactly the man to get the trains running on time. :agree:

He'd get some caucasian/anglosaxon ticket inspectors and cleaners in for starters:thumbsup: Gawd Bless Nick

[LiverpoolHibs]

You should have a look at the racism thread on the main board if you think this is depressing:rolleyes: I might just take out a subscription to the Mail, switch on Question Time tonight and put my head in the oven...(before tearing up my union card of course)

I've just had a glance. Crikey...


:blah:

Can I ask a question in all seriousness? What do you think the point of your 'contributions' to this thread have been?


Nick Griffin's brought Question Time forward by 24 hours to demonstrate that he's exactly the man to get the trains running on time. :agree:

:tee hee:

[Ed De Gramo]

I've just had a glance. Crikey...



Can I ask a question in all seriousness? What do you think the point of your 'contributions' to this thread have been?



:tee hee:

I'm all for 30,000 temps getting jobs :agree:

Refreshing to see some good news coming from the credit crunch :thumbsup:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Mark Steel, Royal Mail Is To Blame For Our Boken Society (Obviously), brilliant and funny as always...

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-royal-mail-is-to-blame-for-our-broken-society-obviously-1806199.html

"The Post office unions can't obstruct modernisation," insists Peter Mandelson. That must be why Mandelson has the thoroughly modern job title of Lord, because he's not afraid to modernise. And no one could accuse his place of work, the House of Lords, of resisting modernisation. Every member of staff is at the cutting edge of new technology, making use of the very latest developments in ermine gowns, and overmanning is unheard of as every single Lord is essential and oozes infectious youthful hereditary energy for the benefit of Britain.

If only the Post Office unions would agree to being that modern, then their sacks would be carried by equerries, and attendance would be around 5 per cent of the workforce, who would take it in turns to stand up with a parcel, shake it for a couple of minutes, then say "Am I delivering this or receiving it, I don't recall?" and sit down again.
Presumably, what is meant by "modernise" is privatised. Then, as they're delivering your mail postmen can say "Would you like a pastry with your bills this morning? No? In that case are you aware I could also supply you with gas?" And each postman could get sponsorship, and cycle along whistling 'You can't get quicker than a Kwik Fit fitter'. Eventually they'll be properly modern, like the water companies who were fined £12m for providing a dreadful service and lying to cover it up, or the hugely popular gas companies.

We can already see the types of modernisation the Government would like to apply. For example they got rid of that antiquated system in rural areas where the elderly would queue in a ramshackle old Post Office for their pension, by shutting the things down. And in a marvellous example of joined-up government, soon the elderly won't be any worse off because their pensions will be scrapped anyway, saving them a walk, and encouraging them to modernise because it's no good wandering about being 82 in a modern environment.

So the management at Royal Mail, and the Government, want to cut jobs, freeze pay and change the working conditions for the staff, which has led to the current strikes. And that means certain papers are already exploding with stories that start "Britain's 103-year-olds are to be targeted by callous striking union members. 'Christmas cards are all I have to live for', said Ethel Dibbet from her nursing home, 'But this year I suppose I'll have to go without, what with them blooming selfish postmen with their unrealistic demands and obstinate Luddite refusal to ruddy well modernise'."


The Times had a headline telling us the strike would "Lose £100m in revenues" for the Government, which seems a lot until they explain this is because they'll have to waive the £100 fine for late tax returns, that could have been imposed on a million people. But surely The Times, and David Cameron, should be delighted about this, praising the union for helping to stamp out the red tape that holds back business.

You can see why there's such enthusiasm for taking on the post unions, because these are the people whose excess has got us into such a financial mess. Ask anyone "Whose greed caused the economic crash"? and they'll say "Investment postmen, they're the *******s." And we've all heard tales of them gloating down the sorting office, about how they'd just finished Gresham Street when they heard about the run on the futures market in Hong Kong, nipped down the stock market on their bicycle, did three dings on their bell to signal "sell" to the traders, picked up £10m and nipped back just in time to finish Parsley Avenue.

There is one other possibility, which is the Royal Mail management and the Government are trying to break the union altogether, which would explain why they've drawn up plans to impose the changes without the union's agreement, leaving the management free to impose whatever sackings or pay cuts they fancied at any time. And to be fair, you can see why the head of Royal Mail, Adam Crozier, might consider a union unnecessary, as he managed to get himself a deal worth £9m over six years without one.


It might also explain their aggressive stance, which has gone as far as cancelling their annual anti-bullying week, although one-third of staff say they've witnessed bullying managers. Or maybe Mandelson has insisted the management modernises bullying, so instead of calling staff in to be told they're slow and useless, they'll now be told they're fat ugly pigs on Twitter.

And if Royal Mail get their way, we could find the local sorting office turned into modern themed apartments, and we'll have to collect all of our parcels from a centralised modern digital automated package centre in a retail park in Bangalore.

[lyonhibs]

Ok.



What sort of mail cannot wait two days?

If you believe that the position that the Royal Mail workers have adopted is correct and that their strike should be supported, why would anyone support actions of management and individuals to undercut the effectiveness of the strike. As I keep saying, it does not make any sense.

The fundamental point of pretty much any strike is to ensure that a 'decent level of service' cannot be maintained, otherwise what's the point? This is what I'm struggling to understand, I'd probably prefer to argue with someone who fully opposes the strike than this vague, wishy-washy nonsense.



Well I'd like to believe that there are still people who believe in certain principles which they wouldn't compromise even if their own personal circumstances would be improved if they did. So, that sort of world?

Sadly, from the purely altruistic perspective, as has been proven by the fact there were something like 100,000 applications for the 30,000 posts, "that sort of world" is - as I have been trying to point out - an overly optimistic sort of world, especially with this economic climate

As for the section in brackets. You could always read up on the situation and decide, properly, 'which side you're on'?

I have read the piece you posted earlier, and if it is taken verbatim, which can be a dangerous thing to do given as it is not exactly written from a balanced point of view, then yes, the posties are being stiffed by managment, and should not take it lying down, contrary to the opinions of some on here. So they're going on strike, as is their right.

My "beef" isn't with that, it's with the fact that you appear to be perfectly ok with describing folk wanting to get by, even just for a few months, as "complete ****bags" worthy of a "kick to the bollocks"

Do you think they eat spit-roasted baby washed down with a glass of orphans tears for breakfast, or do you think they - as individuals - are indulging in the apparently heinous crime of trying to pay their rent, bills etc etc, just like Joe Bloggs in the street?


There's not really a lot of point replying to that.

Ok, granted it was a slightly childish way of asking the question, and I wasn't expecting you to divulge any personal information over the internet, but could you honestly say that if you found yourself in the position (I assume what I'm about to describe isn't an actual reflection of your current financial/job situation) of the 30,000 temp workers - assuming temp work with the Royal Mail over the busy season isn't a walk in the park - who are presumably relatively skint, and with not that many job options avaliable to them for whatever reason, that you would say

"No thanks to that paid work, one must show solidarity with the striking posties, I'll just go and collect my dole again this week"

If you honestly, could, then hats off to you, because I know that I - and I suggest many on here - could not remain so high minded and principled in that situation.


I can't say I am. It's been fairly depressing thus far.



Erm, yeah, well done...

:agree:Another erudite and searingly thought provoking contribution from Gramo :greengrin



Well, if they weren't before, the gloves are off now. Strikes to go ahead for sure on Thursday and Friday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8319169.stm

[hibsdaft]

I'm all for 30,000 temps getting jobs :agree:

Refreshing to see some good news coming from the credit crunch :thumbsup:

you're talking about the livelihoods of people who are reading and posting on this thread. its one thing voicing your opinion but your flippant attitude and wind-uppery is out of order imho.

[hibsbollah]

Mark Steel, Royal Mail Is To Blame For Our Boken Society (Obviously), brilliant and funny as always...

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-royal-mail-is-to-blame-for-our-broken-society-obviously-1806199.html

"The Post office unions can't obstruct modernisation," insists Peter Mandelson. That must be why Mandelson has the thoroughly modern job title of Lord, because he's not afraid to modernise. And no one could accuse his place of work, the House of Lords, of resisting modernisation. Every member of staff is at the cutting edge of new technology, making use of the very latest developments in ermine gowns, and overmanning is unheard of as every single Lord is essential and oozes infectious youthful hereditary energy for the benefit of Britain.

If only the Post Office unions would agree to being that modern, then their sacks would be carried by equerries, and attendance would be around 5 per cent of the workforce, who would take it in turns to stand up with a parcel, shake it for a couple of minutes, then say "Am I delivering this or receiving it, I don't recall?" and sit down again.
Presumably, what is meant by "modernise" is privatised. Then, as they're delivering your mail postmen can say "Would you like a pastry with your bills this morning? No? In that case are you aware I could also supply you with gas?" And each postman could get sponsorship, and cycle along whistling 'You can't get quicker than a Kwik Fit fitter'. Eventually they'll be properly modern, like the water companies who were fined £12m for providing a dreadful service and lying to cover it up, or the hugely popular gas companies.

We can already see the types of modernisation the Government would like to apply. For example they got rid of that antiquated system in rural areas where the elderly would queue in a ramshackle old Post Office for their pension, by shutting the things down. And in a marvellous example of joined-up government, soon the elderly won't be any worse off because their pensions will be scrapped anyway, saving them a walk, and encouraging them to modernise because it's no good wandering about being 82 in a modern environment.

So the management at Royal Mail, and the Government, want to cut jobs, freeze pay and change the working conditions for the staff, which has led to the current strikes. And that means certain papers are already exploding with stories that start "Britain's 103-year-olds are to be targeted by callous striking union members. 'Christmas cards are all I have to live for', said Ethel Dibbet from her nursing home, 'But this year I suppose I'll have to go without, what with them blooming selfish postmen with their unrealistic demands and obstinate Luddite refusal to ruddy well modernise'."


The Times had a headline telling us the strike would "Lose £100m in revenues" for the Government, which seems a lot until they explain this is because they'll have to waive the £100 fine for late tax returns, that could have been imposed on a million people. But surely The Times, and David Cameron, should be delighted about this, praising the union for helping to stamp out the red tape that holds back business.

You can see why there's such enthusiasm for taking on the post unions, because these are the people whose excess has got us into such a financial mess. Ask anyone "Whose greed caused the economic crash"? and they'll say "Investment postmen, they're the *******s." And we've all heard tales of them gloating down the sorting office, about how they'd just finished Gresham Street when they heard about the run on the futures market in Hong Kong, nipped down the stock market on their bicycle, did three dings on their bell to signal "sell" to the traders, picked up £10m and nipped back just in time to finish Parsley Avenue.

There is one other possibility, which is the Royal Mail management and the Government are trying to break the union altogether, which would explain why they've drawn up plans to impose the changes without the union's agreement, leaving the management free to impose whatever sackings or pay cuts they fancied at any time. And to be fair, you can see why the head of Royal Mail, Adam Crozier, might consider a union unnecessary, as he managed to get himself a deal worth £9m over six years without one.


It might also explain their aggressive stance, which has gone as far as cancelling their annual anti-bullying week, although one-third of staff say they've witnessed bullying managers. Or maybe Mandelson has insisted the management modernises bullying, so instead of calling staff in to be told they're slow and useless, they'll now be told they're fat ugly pigs on Twitter.

And if Royal Mail get their way, we could find the local sorting office turned into modern themed apartments, and we'll have to collect all of our parcels from a centralised modern digital automated package centre in a retail park in Bangalore.

Loving Mark Steel's work, as usual:top marks The family silver is being flogged out the back door, but only the 'loony left' is paying attention:bitchy:

[Ed De Gramo]

you're talking about the livelihoods of people who are reading and posting on this thread. its one thing voicing your opinion but your flippant attitude and wind-uppery is out of order imho.

I think it's right for people struggling to get jobs to be offered the chance to make money to provide for their families over xmas. :agree:

I know a few people who are finding it hard to get jobs and think if they are available, then why shouldn't they apply?

End of the day, why does that make them a 'scab'? They are willing to do the job for less money and fair play to them :agree:

[lyonhibs]

I think it's right for people struggling to get jobs to be offered the chance to make money to provide for their families over xmas. :agree:

I know a few people who are finding it hard to get jobs and think if they are available, then why shouldn't they apply?

End of the day, why does that make them a 'scab'? They are willing to do the job for less money and fair play to them :agree:

Is it confirmed that the temporary workers will be on less per hour than the equivalent full time post??

I know that the temporary bin men brought into cover the bin men strike for came from an agency who paid them a fair bit more/hour than the original binmen.

[hibsdaft]

End of the day, why does that make them a 'scab'? They are willing to do the job for less money and fair play to them :agree:

well how about i go into your place of work tomorrow morning and offer to do your job for £5.75 an hour, with minimal rights? then i could come on here and goad you with inane juvenile comments about the threat to your livelihood tomorrow evening.

do you see what i am getting at?

[blackpoolhibs]

I had 12 years as a postman, it was the easiest job i ever had. I started at 5.15am and was finished at 9.30, 10am at the latest. My golf handicap plummeted when employed by the post office.:thumbsup: I hear its a little harder these days.:confused:

[Ed De Gramo]

Is it confirmed that the temporary workers will be on less per hour than the equivalent full time post??

I know that the temporary bin men brought into cover the bin men strike for came from an agency who paid them a fair bit more/hour than the original binmen.

Sure I read that this morning :agree:

You just needed to take a look round Edinburgh to see the carnage caused by strike action...the same thing will happen with the mail (albeit in a more envelopey way).

If there's no mail during the strike period, there's gonna a massive backlog which could cause people to lose birthday cards, holiday money, holiday tickets etc...should that be allowed to happen...no it shouldn't...and hopefully it won't due to the temps being brought in :agree:

[hibsdaft]

which could cause people to lose birthday cards, holiday money, holiday tickets etc...

everyone has known about this strike for weeks now.

have you stopped to think about the reasons behind the strike or are you really just against it because you might get a utility bill a few days late this month?

[Killiehibbie]

Sure I read that this morning :agree:

You just needed to take a look round Edinburgh to see the carnage caused by strike action...the same thing will happen with the mail (albeit in a more envelopey way).

If there's no mail during the strike period, there's gonna a massive backlog which could cause people to lose birthday cards, holiday money, holiday tickets etc...should that be allowed to happen...no it shouldn't...and hopefully it won't due to the temps being brought in :agree:

It'll take a lot more than 30,000 new starts with little knowledge of postal deliveries to prevent backlogs.

[Ed De Gramo]

well how about i go into your place of work tomorrow morning and offer to do your job for £5.75 an hour, with minimal rights? then i could come on here and goad you with inane juvenile comments about the threat to your livelihood tomorrow evening.

do you see what i am getting at?

with pleasure :greengrin

In all seriousness though, the current financial climate we're in means that if there's jobs available and people wanting to do them, then that'll happen regardless of whats being paid out :agree:

[Ed De Gramo]

everyone has known about this strike for weeks now.

have you stopped to think about the reasons behind the strike or are you really just against it because you might get a utility bill a few days late this month?

No bothered about bills...they can stay hidden away. I'm referring to the older generation that don't have access to the internet or aren't savvy on mobile phones. Grandchildren not receiving birthday cards etc...


It'll take a lot more than 30,000 new starts with little knowledge of postal deliveries to prevent backlogs.

True, but surely its better having people attempting to attack the backlog than let it sit in sorting offices leading to the possibilities of it never turning up...

[Killiehibbie]

No bothered about bills...they can stay hidden away. I'm referring to the older generation that don't have access to the internet or aren't savvy on mobile phones. Grandchildren not receiving birthday cards etc...



True, but surely its better having people attempting to attack the backlog than let it sit in sorting offices leading to the possibilities of it never turning up...
Leave it all where it is and maybe the temps will get a fair deal next year and the next...

[Ed De Gramo]

Leave it all where it is and maybe the temps will get a fair deal next year and the next...

and then watch public's rage when they get no mail...

[Killiehibbie]

and then watch public's rage when they get no mail...

If the politicians and management get their way not many people will get mail anyway. Only those in profitable areas will get deliveries or you will pay a hefty premuim.

[hibsdaft]

Grandchildren not receiving birthday cards etc...

:faf:

you actually had me for a minute there

[Danderhall Hibs]

and then watch public's rage when they get no mail...


It'll just be the poor wee grandkids that don't get their card from their Granny that'll be raging. The majority of folk will realise that there are more important things happening.

[Betty Boop]

It'll take a lot more than 30,000 new starts with little knowledge of postal deliveries to prevent backlogs.

:agree: Just who is supposed to be training these 30,000 temporary workers?

[Danderhall Hibs]

Leave it all where it is and maybe the temps will get a fair deal next year and the next...

:agree: Why do so many people look for the short-term fix?

[Killiehibbie]

:agree: Just who is supposed to be training these 30,000 temporary workers?

I thought you were quite clever, sometimes.
Managers will give them a crash course in sorting and deliveries all in done double quick time with bags bigger and heavier than the ones under the temps eyes after a fortnight.

[hibbykeef]

None of the 30 thousand will be delivering the backlog ,just your poor postie.

[hibsdaft]

and then watch public's rage when they get no mail...

still waiting on the public rage at bailing out the banks at a tune of £25K per citizen i can't see folk rioting over a few late bills or even - shock horror - a birthday card or two.

[Hibeebob]

Boop. Rm don't train permanent staff so I wouldn't worry about training for the temps, they just won't get any.
G19 your ignorance on this topic is quite astonishing. Forget about wages and conditions. The cutbacks involved would mean the service and delays you mention would be the norm. However your posts would indicate you are not capable of understanding this. You and a few others on this thread are either on the wind up, (which is disgusting) or you don't understand the subject matter in which case please leave the debate to the grown ups.
I hope the admins are keeping an eye on this thread because comments like g19s and piemans add nothing to the debate and are clearly designed to be inflamatory.

[Hibeebob]

The public's rage when they get no mail? But they won't be bothered if rm get their way and you don't get a daily delivery? You'll get mail every couple of days if that. 5pm delivery. Massive premiums for next day delivery. Extra cost depending on where you are posting to. No deliveries in rural areas. Come and pick up yor mail, you'll be quicker.

[ArabHibee]

The mail strike is gonna be a real nightmare for my work. We rely on the post for the majority of our work. Bosses have a contingency plan that if the strikes continue on after the next 2 days then staff will have to be prepared to be sent home if no work to do and to make up the time off (if and when) the strikes are finished, as we will be inundated with loads of mail.

Am I bothered about this? Yes I am, as it's probably gonna interrupt my home life by having to work longer hours when the backlog starts to get delivered.

Am I in agreement with the strike? Absolutely. Posties are being ****ed over by the big bosses. At least they have the opportunity to be able to strike. Not so in my work. I hope the posties manage to sort out this dispute to their satisfaction.

[hibsdaft]

message from Postal Workers at http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk


Royal Mail customers:We don't want to strike!

...before we go on let's get one thing out 1st, it's not about a pay rise ,far from it,a pay rise if we are to be truthful is in the mix but is not as a high priority as other concerns we have.

Please just take a minute to see what we have to say.

What's affecting you then?

In 2007 we signed an agreement with Royal Mail called the Pay & Modernisation deal,in that deal there are, amongst other things, a new working practice called 'absorption'.

This is one of YOUR biggest problems,whether you are a domestic or business customer!

Before the deal any postal workers rounds that weren't covered due to staff sickness,holidays,or general shortage would be covered by other postal workers on overtime.

There would be no shortage of posties willing to do this,so there was never a major problem getting the mail delivered.

But now we have 'absorption',what this now means is that any rounds now that does not have a postal worker allocated to it is now absorbed by the rest of the postal workers in the office.

With Royal Mail insisting that mail volumes are falling they are under the impression that we know have a lot of spare time in which to absorb other posties work.

This is not the case,not only have we lost 60,000 staff in the business in the last few years (our CEO Adam Crozier has publicly admitted this) but we now have a large proportion of part-time workers which affects the way the mail pipeline works.

Mail is being delayed regularly and in vast amounts around the country in the name of absorption,so managers can report that absorption has happened and the savings have been made,some posties have to leave part of their round in the office,they also are being forced to 'cut off' or stop their deliveries as they have run out of time.

Royal Mail drivers have been taken off their packet routes to help absorption, hence packets are left undelivered for days.

This is a mass abuse of the deal we signed in 07,and posties are being bullied and threatened with taken off pay if they either refuse to do this or happen to cut off.

Later deliveries

A few years back Royal Mail ceased the 2nd delivery and you now only get one, but the truth is Royal Mail did not stop the 2nd delivery they cancelled the 1st.

We now start our rounds at the time that we started the 2nd delivery years ago and now, Royal Mail want even later start times. So while today, if you're one of the lucky ones, you might meet your postman before you go to lunch, you will soon be meeting him just before dinner. We are aware that this causes big problems for businesses all over the UK more especially those that work from home.

But that does not seem to matter to Royal Mail, later start times and later deliveries are all down to modernisation, or in other words, new sorting machines being brought in which, would you believe, take even longer to sort the mail.

This will also affect our own work/life balance and there are childcare issues, and school run problems, already rising because of it.

You may also be aware before we went to Single Daily Delivery, you could pick up any packets or signed for letters left in the morning around 2 hours or so later at your local office. That, as some of you may be aware has changed, some places you have to wait 24 hours, most 48 but there are some where you can't get the packet for nearly 72hrs.

That's if your office is local instead of on some industrial estate somewhere, and of course if it does not close before lunch.

This is Royal Mail modernisation.

If you don't like your job,then leave

This is what we read about all the time from alleged customers on the Internet news stories comment sections, and, regrettably Royal Mail management.

But who says that we don't like our job. You will find that most posties love their job, but are finding it harder and harder to provide the service they want and their customers expect, not just because of the work levels, but more so the bullying and harassment by managers at all levels of the business.

Why should we have to put up with the constant B&H and worsening of our terms and conditions, when all we want to do is get on with our job and provide a service to our customers.

We will not be hounded out of a job we love in the name of profit, or be made to feel guilty because we decide to defend our current Conditions of service, instead of allowing them to be decimated because of the inherently unfair bonus culture of Royal Mail.

National strike

The 1st strike was in London N18 Edmonton against introduction of part-time duties by executive action on 7th March. Cowdenbeath DO was the first among many in Scotland to strike against Executive Action on 27th March. The whole of London took action throughout June, and over 500 other offices around the country either went out on strike or requested a strike ballot.

Previously to all of this some Mail Centres around the country took strike action over their closures, and the lack of real consultation.

London, since June have taken over 16 days of action.

During all that time we have repeatedly asked Royal Mail to negotiate with our Union about, not only the problems that you have so far read about and will read about below, but more importantly the fact that previous agreements are either being ignored or abused.

It has now come to the time where enough is enough and now we have, unfortunately, the national strikes.

No more efficiency changes this year

This is what Royal Mail have claimed but this is not the case,there are many cases on the site where Royal Mail are still pushing ahead with with their changes.

Including later start times,full-time positions going to part-time,Pegasus 2 revisions (flawed computer program),night staff being moved to days,full-time staff to prep part-time staff walks,more hours to go from delivery offices...

You the tax payer

You are being mislead by the media and the Government regarding Billions of pounds of tax payers money being used to prop up Royal Mail and our pensions,this is not the case and a blatant lie by all.

For many years the treasury have taken our profits from us for their own gain, add nearly 13 years when due to tax reasons Royal Mail did not pay into our pension scheme, and yes the treasury got that money as well, you the tax payer owes Royal Mail Billions of pounds.

Any money recently received by Royal Mail from tax payers has been a loan and has to be paid back at commercial loan rates which means that the tax payer has once again benefited from us.

Privatisation

This is a simple one,the Government have said that they will take over our pension deficit only if we get part-privatised.

The crux of this,is that you the tax payer will pay for our pensions,but a private investor will not have to so they will just get the profits. Our Union Leader remarked on this at the Labour Conference by saying the Government were Privatising the Profit and Nationalising the debt.

The tax payer will have the debt, while the private investor will get the profit!

We, us the humble posties do not need to tell you what happens after a company is privatised, you only need to look at your utility bills, train fares and your bank statements for that.

Mail volumes

We agree that mail volumes are down,but not as much as Royal Mail say, we accept the recession has had an effect, but again, not as much that Royal Mail has said.

With 60,00 jobs gone, bigger rounds,over 1 Million new homes built in the last few years with more to come, a few letters less in our post bag, when you add the mass increase in packets due to e-commerce,there is no leeway in our duties like Royal Mail think.

Add the fact that Royal Mail now count the mail differently with an un agreed and flawed process,then you have false traffic figures.

What is in the boxes that they send the mail down to Delivery Offices, is very much under estimated and has been shown to be so by royalmailchat members counting individual boxes.

Independent report on Royal Mail

Last year the Government requested an independent report on Royal Mail (The Hooper report) this found many flaws with the way the business is being run,including lack of transparency by the business with its figures and the fact that Royal Mail management were not up to the job.

[hibsdaft]

continues...


We are not against modernisation

WE ARE NOT AGAINST CHANGE - We signed up to the Pay and Mod Agreement. RM ignored Phase 4 till we started local strikes.

WE ARE AWARE THERE WILL BE JOB LOSSES - 60,000 gone in recent years.

WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR A PAY RISE PER SE - We had a pay freeze this year which was imposed against the spirit of the 2007 agreement.

WE ARE NOT AGAINST MODERNISATION - But we haven't seen it in deliveries unless you count longer routes with heavier bags.

WE OFFERED A MORATORIUM ON STRIKES IF ROYAL MAIL DISCUSSED CHANGES - Royal Mail refused saying it was a stalling tactic but now they want it when un agreed systems are in place.

WE ARE NOT AGAINST WORKING HARD - The Union suggested having independent organisations help both sides come up with a fair and balanced way of measuring workload and standard - Royal Mail refused.

The 2007 agreement allowed local units to have innovative attendance patterns, and these were agreed in some units with full Royal Mail involvement. Yet without consulting the CWU (as per the agreement) they unilaterally enforced change on these working arrangements.

The agreement also allowed a local earnings package,this has been taken away by Royal Mail.

We are and we will strike against - Bullying and Harassment such as

• Being suspended for pointing out H&S concerns.

• Being sent home without pay when we can't complete a delivery in the time allotted especially if managers are not willing to walk test us or check individual posties frames to see how busy they are.

• Genuine overtime being struck off when you go over your contracted hours on a busy day.

• Being sent home without pay when you can't do the half hour flexibility when asked - even though personal reasons are meant to be taken into account as per the 07 agreement.

• When you do the 1/2hr flexibility not being able to claw it back or be paid it on overtime as per the 07 agreement. Or being given it back in 5 minute chunks.

• Changing our start and finish times on a weekly basis without negotiation.

• Using a flawed computer program to work out rounds with un-agreed walk speeds.

• No independent H&S review after accidents at work - Staff being blamed for accidents without thorough and external review of all pertinent matters by an independent body.

Spanish practices do not exist
The reality in modern delivery offices is that the posties slogs their guts out everyday under the gaze of managers ready to sack them for the slightest indiscretion.

Many many part-timers are bullied by managers into doing unpaid over time day in day out.

All OT has to be OK'ed by management and most posties are too intimidated to go see their manager to ask for it.

A lot of our guys do hrs of OT per week for nothing.

Give the Public a service - Yep that's Royal Mails job and guess how they do that

1. Close 3,500 Post Offices.

2. Reduce the service at 1000s of others.

3. Allow the Government to withdraw some of the services you used to be able to get at POs.

4. Ceased Sunday Collections (now for anyone to get anything on Monday you need to send it before 1230 on Saturday.

5. Cancelled Bank Holiday Collections.

6. Cancelled 2nd Delivery

7. Made the 1st delivery later than the 2nd ever was.

8. Laid off 60,000 workers through various means.

9. Close delivery offices and amalgamate them into Super DOs on industrial estates miles from bus routes.

10. Bring in a complicated and expensive postage system. (Pricing in Proportion).

11. Increase handling fees for Import from £4 to £8.

12. Increase the surcharge of underpaid items to £1.

13. Increase stamp prices above inflation.

14. Agree a price with DSA competitors to use our network which means we subsidise them to the tune of 2p per item.

15. Take 5 years to spend half of the 1.2billion the government loaned them, but we are still yet to see the machines in use on a UK wide basis even though trials are going well according to Royal Mail.

16. Removing Mail Cycles and replacing them with cars and then claiming they are doing everything to reduce carbon emissions.

17. Half day closing for all Callers Offices and a delay of up to 72 hours before you can collect parcels/letters after getting a "Sorry you were out Card"

All of the above is not exaustive,but we are,thank you for taking the time to read it.

[Hibeebob]

Fantastic post hibsdaft hopefully people will take the time to read it.

[Judas Iscariot]

Fantastic post hibsdaft hopefully people will take the time to read it.

Everyone apart from Garmo19 :rolleyes:

I'm with the posties, just like the binmen a few months back, these guys are getting the pash ripped oot them BIG TIME!

My old man was a postie for over 20 years until redundancy came up in the summer, so I know the nonsense that goes on!

It's all well and good sitting behind your desk moaning at these guys fir striking and that might cause you not to get your Topman store card bill delivered on time but these guys are trying to defend their jobs and working conditions!

At least they're taking action at being shafted left, right and centre whereas everyone else just shuts up and puts up with big bosses continually ripping the plsh!

[Betty Boop]

Boop. Rm don't train permanent staff so I wouldn't worry about training for the temps, they just won't get any.
G19 your ignorance on this topic is quite astonishing. Forget about wages and conditions. The cutbacks involved would mean the service and delays you mention would be the norm. However your posts would indicate you are not capable of understanding this. You and a few others on this thread are either on the wind up, (which is disgusting) or you don't understand the subject matter in which case please leave the debate to the grown ups.
I hope the admins are keeping an eye on this thread because comments like g19s and piemans add nothing to the debate and are clearly designed to be inflamatory.

Good luck to you and your fellow workers Bob! :thumbsup:

[Steve-O]

I'm all for 30,000 temps getting jobs :agree:

Refreshing to see some good news coming from the credit crunch :thumbsup:

Please stop talking absolute and utter pish and being nothing but a troll.

:troll:

Here's a definition for you since you like those -

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response

[Steve-O]

well how about i go into your place of work tomorrow morning and offer to do your job for £5.75 an hour, with minimal rights? then i could come on here and goad you with inane juvenile comments about the threat to your livelihood tomorrow evening.

do you see what i am getting at?


with pleasure :greengrin

In all seriousness though, the current financial climate we're in means that if there's jobs available and people wanting to do them, then that'll happen regardless of whats being paid out :agree:

Did you even read the guy's post? Your answer makes no sense.

[H18sry]

Fantastic post hibsdaft hopefully people will take the time to read it.

:top marks:top marks

As an ex postie I can relate to all the points put forward, and I support the posties 100% good luck folks. :thumbsup:

[CropleyWasGod]

I have just had a delivery at work. In fact, it was earlier than normal.

Is my postie a filthy blackleg scab, or just a nice guy? Maybe he didn't get the letter telling him to strike? :greengrin

[WILCO]

The role of the Union in the workplace cannot be underestimated and without their support we could eventually find ourselves working with the same terms and conditions that exist in the sweatshops of the far east.

[col02]

The role of the Union in the workplace cannot be underestimated and without their support we could eventually find ourselves working with the same terms and conditions that exist in the sweatshops of the far east.

Funny how private companies seem to exist just fine without the bully boy tactics of the union!

[WILCO]

Funny how private companies seem to exist just fine without the bully boy tactics of the union!

Yeah, anybody that opens their mouth in opposition to situations that are deemed to be unfair should be stereotyped as a bully boy, suppose it is down to perception and where you are on the ladder eh...........

[hibsbollah]

Yeah, anybody that opens their mouth in opposition to situations that are deemed to be unfair should be stereotyped as a bully boy, suppose it is down to perception and where you are on the ladder eh...........

The postmen voted for the strike in a secret ballot and 75% supported the strike, so I dont know whos the 'bully' in this scenario...

[col02]

Yeah, anybody that opens their mouth in opposition to situations that are deemed to be unfair should be stereotyped as a bully boy, suppose it is down to perception and where you are on the ladder eh...........

Works both ways though doesn't it? Boss says to employee do this job and it is deemed unfair and employee says to boss I am not doing this job to which boss thinks it unfair. Strike action imho is just a case of Unions showing an arm of strength in justification of their positions. As you say it is all about perception though. I have heard second hand from people that work in enviroments where Unions exist that they can be very very petty. In this case they have a case to some degree but using the busiest time of the year for mail as some form of leverage means they do not get my support.

[WILCO]

The postmen voted for the strike in a secret ballot and 75% supported the strike, so I dont know whos the 'bully' in this scenario...

Exactly.

[col02]

The postmen voted for the strike in a secret ballot and 75% supported the strike, so I dont know whos the 'bully' in this scenario...

So the 25% who want to just do their job and keep their heads down will be able to still go in and do the job without fear of being singled out?

[hibsbollah]

but using the busiest time of the year for mail as some form of leverage means they do not get my support.

It wouldnt be a very good strike if they did it at the quietest time of the year, would it? Thats the whole point.

[H18sry]

I have just had a delivery at work. In fact, it was earlier than normal.

Is my postie a filthy blackleg scab, or just a nice guy? Maybe he didn't get the letter telling him to strike? :greengrin

Do keep up will you :devil:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8319679.stm

[hibsbollah]

So the 25% who want to just do their job and keep their heads down will be able to still go in and do the job without fear of being singled out?

'keeping your head down':confused: Youve lost me.

[col02]

It wouldnt be a very good strike if they did it at the quietest time of the year, would it? Thats the whole point.

And you do not see this as bully boy tactics? Manipulation is what I would call it personally. The Union will get a few concessions from management at Royal mail and the management will get a few more steps closer to their "modernisation" plan. Ultimately it will be the public that loses out while they play a game of brinkmanship which will see both sides claiming a victory in the end.

---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 AM ----------


'keeping your head down':confused: Youve lost me.

ie the 25% who want to carry on doing the job.

[WILCO]

Works both ways though doesn't it? Boss says to employee do this job and it is deemed unfair and employee says to boss I am not doing this job to which boss thinks it unfair. Strike action imho is just a case of Unions showing an arm of strength in justification of their positions. As you say it is all about perception though. I have heard second hand from people that work in enviroments where Unions exist that they can be very very petty. In this case they have a case to some degree but using the busiest time of the year for mail as some form of leverage means they do not get my support.

Striking is a last resort, i agree there quite a few are less than productive workers, you could also apply that kind of logic to many managers and directors, a Union is a collective which seeks to protect its workers and is there to have a say in working practices and conditions, you might also find that a lot of managers in certain companies are in a union and one of them is Royal Mail.

[CropleyWasGod]

Do keep up will you :devil:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8319679.stm

Link's not working. However, I've just found out that it's Scotland's turn tomorrow. See, that's what happens when one relies on lazy Anglo-centric journalism. That's another thread, though, so I will just go and scowl in the ignorant corner while the big boys debate the theory :wink:

[Hibeebob]

Yeah col cause that's all it is "a silly game" :rolleyes:
Crop, the strikes are today and the morn. Could be your postie is not out till fri.
Surely this isn't a case of someone on .net commenting on a topic without knowing the facts crop? No shirley shone mishtake ?

[WILCO]

And you do not see this as bully boy tactics? Manipulation is what I would call it personally. The Union will get a few concessions from management at Royal mail and the management will get a few more steps closer to their "modernisation" plan. Ultimately it will be the public that loses out while they play a game of brinkmanship which will see both sides claiming a victory in the end.

---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 AM ----------



ie the 25% who want to carry on doing the job.

Manipulation, Royal Mail made its biggest profit last year despite the competition from other postal services which still use their pipeline at a much cheaper rate, the decision to attack the Union at all costs will unfortunately have desperate repercussions for all of us.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yeah col cause that's all it is "a silly game" :rolleyes:
Crop, the strikes are today and the morn. Could be your postie is not out till fri.
Surely this isn't a case of someone on .net commenting on a topic without knowing the facts crop? No shirley shone mishtake ?

I would refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier comment. I prefer the defence of ignorance, m'lud. :greengrin

[Steve-O]

Funny how private companies seem to exist just fine without the bully boy tactics of the union!

No wonder with folk like Andy74 providing free labour for them.

[H18sry]

Link's not working. However, I've just found out that it's Scotland's turn tomorrow. See, that's what happens when one relies on lazy Anglo-centric journalism. That's another thread, though, so I will just go and scowl in the ignorant corner while the big boys debate the theory :wink:

No it's not :greengrin today is the mail centers strike days tomorrow its delivery offices strike days :wink: that way, I think is to ensure minimum disruption :agree:

[Andy74]

No wonder with folk like Andy74 providing free labour for them.

Yes, it's either me or someone else doing it with me having no job or no company to work for.

As I've explained above my option is if i don't like it I can walk out the door.

Funny how you can sympathise with those going on strike yet you seem to ridicule others who are also in similar positions but don't have that option.

[lapsedhibee]

Yes, it's either me or someone else doing it with me having no job or no company to work for.

As I've explained above my option is if i don't like it I can walk out the door.

Funny how you can sympathise with those going on strike yet you seem to ridicule others who are also in similar positions but don't have that option.

Sorry if I've missed this earlier, but why is it that you don't you have a third option - namely, form a union which can negotiate better practices/conditions on your behalf?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Sadly, from the purely altruistic perspective, as has been proven by the fact there were something like 100,000 applications for the 30,000 posts, "that sort of world" is - as I have been trying to point out - an overly optimistic sort of world, especially with this economic climate

But that doesn't really mean anything does it? Just because a considerable number of people are willing to scab doesn't say anything about the people who hold the position that they wouldn't.


I have read the piece you posted earlier, and if it is taken verbatim, which can be a dangerous thing to do given as it is not exactly written from a balanced point of view, then yes, the posties are being stiffed by managment, and should not take it lying down, contrary to the opinions of some on here. So they're going on strike, as is their right.

Ok.


My "beef" isn't with that, it's with the fact that you appear to be perfectly ok with describing folk wanting to get by, even just for a few months, as "complete ****bags" worthy of a "kick to the bollocks"

Do you think they eat spit-roasted baby washed down with a glass of orphans tears for breakfast, or do you think they - as individuals - are indulging in the apparently heinous crime of trying to pay their rent, bills etc etc, just like Joe Bloggs in the street?

I'm sure they are just the average folk on the street. But they are scabbing - no question - and will potentially be thoroughly complicit in the government plans for R.M.; including putting thousands of full-time workers on the dole.

They are not free from moral culpability because their actions are driven by an understandable desire to pay their rent and bills.


Ok, granted it was a slightly childish way of asking the question, and I wasn't expecting you to divulge any personal information over the internet, but could you honestly say that if you found yourself in the position (I assume what I'm about to describe isn't an actual reflection of your current financial/job situation) of the 30,000 temp workers - assuming temp work with the Royal Mail over the busy season isn't a walk in the park - who are presumably relatively skint, and with not that many job options avaliable to them for whatever reason, that you would say

"No thanks to that paid work, one must show solidarity with the striking posties, I'll just go and collect my dole again this week"

If you honestly, could, then hats off to you, because I know that I - and I suggest many on here - could not remain so high minded and principled in that situation.

I would yes.


message from Postal Workers at http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk

Pah, I'm beggining to think people don't even read my posts. :wink:


I have just had a delivery at work. In fact, it was earlier than normal.

Is my postie a filthy blackleg scab, or just a nice guy? Maybe he didn't get the letter telling him to strike? :greengrin

It's a rolling strike, only deliveries tomorow will be scab mail. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

No it's not :greengrin today is the mail centers strike days tomorrow its delivery offices strike days :wink: that way, I think is to ensure minimum disruption :agree:

I wish all my offences to be taken into account, m'lud. That way, there can be minimal disruption.

Actually, FWIW, my tuppence..... I run my own small practice, which has a heavy reliance on communication of all sorts. After a previous mail strike, when I was badly hit and left frustrated and angry (without taking sides), I decided to change my practices so that never again would I be caught like that. Hence I have less reliance on the mail system than I have ever had. I have to say that, as a result, the current dispute is almost irrelevant to my business.... and I am sure that, all over the country, there are thousands of businesses who would say the same.

This is not to take sides, as I have my own political and moral views; however, from a business view, I have already made my choice. If the Royal Mail is to survive, it has to recognise that the business community is going to move on, with or without it.

[hibsbollah]

I wish all my offences to be taken into account, m'lud. That way, there can be minimal disruption.

Actually, FWIW, my tuppence..... I run my own small practice, which has a heavy reliance on communication of all sorts. After a previous mail strike, when I was badly hit and left frustrated and angry (without taking sides), I decided to change my practices so that never again would I be caught like that. Hence I have less reliance on the mail system than I have ever had. I have to say that, as a result, the current dispute is almost irrelevant to my business.... and I am sure that, all over the country, there are thousands of businesses who would say the same.

This is not to take sides, as I have my own political and moral views; however, from a business view, I have already made my choice. If the Royal Mail is to survive, it has to recognise that the business community is going to move on, with or without it.

Thats an interesting point. I understand that you need to keep communication open when running your business; however, I hope your 'political and moral views' don't clash with your 'business view'-as much as you'd like to separate the two they can't really be separated IMO. Your morality will always try and get in the way:wink:

Personally, if I as a customer heard that a business that I frequented was thinking of chucking a royal mail contract in favour of a competitor, I'd be encouraging them to continue to support the Royal Mail as an organisation if they wanted to keep my custom.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thats an interesting point. I understand that you need to keep communication open when running your business; however, I hope your 'political and moral views' don't clash with your 'business view'-as much as you'd like to separate the two they can't really be separated IMO. Your morality will always try and get in the way:wink:

Personally, if I as a customer heard that a business that I frequented was thinking of chucking a royal mail contract in favour of a competitor, I'd be encouraging them to continue to support the Royal Mail as an organisation if they wanted to keep my custom.

The morality vs. practicality issue is the classic dilemma, though, isn't it? It's been alluded to a few times in this thread.

If a customer was trying to persuade a supplier to continue to support the Royal Mail, then that supplier has to take those views into account. Unless, of course, the customer is worth tuppence to the supplier :devil:

Actually, for me it wasn't so much about choosing someone else over the RM; I still use them, and hope to continue to do so. It's more about not RELYING on them. for example, when the strike was first mentioned, my mind-set became "okay, how will this affect me and how can I minimise the problems?".

I actually expect that there will be virtually no problem for me and my clients, because.... and this is a fundamental of good practice in business.... I anticipated the problems before they arose and dealt with them accordingly.

Would that the RM had taken the same attitude.

[Woody1985]

Sorry if I've missed this earlier, but why is it that you don't you have a third option - namely, form a union which can negotiate better practices/conditions on your behalf?

I suspect Andy works in a company that will not recognise a union and therefore will not enter into discussions with them on any matter.

I believe that any days taken off for strike action are in breach of contract and can result in dismissal.

The unions tried to get into my company but didn't get a massive uptake and were effectively ignored.

My company now have a staff representative which is working really well. The previous one only really paid lip service to the company but there is now a proper constitution that has buy in at executive level and can no longer be ignored or pressurised.

I think that is the best option for private companies.

[Thecat23]

A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y, Z

Sorry just wanted to get me letters out before the stike hit. :duck:

[lapsedhibee]

A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y, Z

Sorry just wanted to get me letters out before the stike hit. :duck:

You were just too late with the lower case R then.

[Hibeebob]

Once again I would like to re-inforce the point some seem to be failing to understand. Remove the argument of Pay and conditions, take that out of the equasion.
Phases 1 2 and 3 of rm modernisation have resulted in the service you as the public are now receiving. It is down to this "essential" re-structuring that you now get your mail around two pm or later. It is down to this that you complain when your tickets etc do not arrive on time.

When rm get their way and phase four hits home, you will no longer have a service at all. Your mail will only be delivered if it is profitable to rm. This means if you are not a large company who have signed a health contract then you will be so far down the list of priority that you will only get a delivery if possible. Don't forget mr smith of 10 bell end place is the least profitable person in the loop. He will be the first one to suffer.

"But there is a recession on" I hear you say. "The company must save money"

tell that to crozier who will have earned over 6 million pounds by the end of his five year contract.

[Beefster]

tell that to crozier who will have earned over 6 million pounds by the end of his five year contract.

Crozier has been paid 60% less this year than last, if the press are to be believed. How much do you think it should have been? Isn't he doing his bit to save costs?

I've just heard a striking RM worker interviewed who didn't have a scooby about why he was on strike - just like the rest of the country. In the end, he just mumbled something about "supporting the union".

[ginger_rice]

I suspect Andy works in a company that will not recognise a union and therefore will not enter into discussions with them on any matter.

.

All employees now have the legal right to belong to a trade union, however they don't have the legal right to have that union recognised by the company.

However if all employees in a company join a union (preferably all the same one) that unions local and national officials can take that particular challenge up.

I worked in a factory in the Stirling area, where workforce management relations were abysmal and there was a huge turnover in staff, with morale very very low, the management refused to recognise the AEEU which we all joined, the fight for recognition went on for several years, eventually the management caved in.

This particular plant now is very successful, tough decisions are still made including at times redundancies or short time, however it is always with the agreement of the workforce, there is an agreement for binding arbitration should consensus not be reached in any dispute, and a no strike agreement exists.

This shows that with a forward thinking management and decent negotiating practices harmony can be achieved.

So for all of you who think you can't...yes you can!

[ginger_rice]

Crozier has been paid 60% less this year than last, if the press are to be believed. How much do you think it should have been? Isn't he doing his bit to save costs?

I've just heard a striking RM worker interviewed who didn't have a scooby about why he was on strike - just like the rest of the country. In the end, he just mumbled something about "supporting the union".

But I'll bet the media didn't use the quotes they got from his more eloquent colleagues who could have informed them exactly why they are on strike :devil:

[Hibeebob]

Beef. Six million over 5 years. 6 million. Yeah he is doing his bit alright.
And you saw one muppet on tv who didn't have a clue. So that's us all idiots who are blindly following the union? Come on mate get real. If you and the "rest of the country" (wee bit of a generalisation there mate) don't understand why we are going on strike it's because you can't be bothered to find out. Plenty on here have tried to explain it. Including myself. Still folk complain about the service they receive, then go on to say we are in the wrong to try and do something about it? Said it before you can either have a mail service where you get letters through your door every day, or you can have a service where you get nowt unless you pay through the nose just to get a delivery.

If option 2 is for you then don't say you weren't warned.

[ArabHibee]

The role of the Union in the workplace cannot be underestimated and without their support we could eventually find ourselves working with the same terms and conditions that exist in the sweatshops of the far east.
:agree:


Funny how private companies seem to exist just fine without the bully boy tactics of the union!
And in the majority of these companies, the workers get royally ****ed over as the big bosses use their bully boy tactics with no-one to stop them.


So the 25% who want to just do their job and keep their heads down will be able to still go in and do the job without fear of being singled out?
No, the 25% should come out on strike because the majority have voted for the strike. That's the whole point of being in the Union is it not, to adhere with the majority?

[Danderhall Hibs]

:agree:


And in the majority of these companies, the workers get royally ****ed over as the big bosses use their bully boy tactics with no-one to stop them.


No, the 25% should come out on strike because the majority have voted for the strike. That's the whole point of being in the Union is it not, to adhere with the majority?

:agree: The Union's only as strong as its membership.

[Golden Bear]

The Union normally negotiate pay increases and improved working conditions on behalf of all the workforce - regardless of whether they are a member of the Union or not.

However if Trade Union membership is in the minority at a place of work then strike action is often a futile act and the sacrifices you, as a Union member made, were often not appreciated by non-union staff.

These same non-union staff were however quick enough to accept the pay increases which were negotiated by the Union.

Downright *loody selfish imo.

:grr:

[Green Mikey]

:agree:


And in the majority of these companies, the workers get royally ****ed over as the big bosses use their bully boy tactics with no-one to stop them.


No, the 25% should come out on strike because the majority have voted for the strike. That's the whole point of being in the Union is it not, to adhere with the majority?

I thought the whole point if a union was to protect workers rights:dunno:

An individuals decision to strike should be determined by personal choice not by an obligation to follow a majority.

[ArabHibee]

I thought the whole point if a union was to protect workers rights:dunno:

An individuals decision to strike should be determined by personal choice not by an obligation to follow a majority.

Then IMO, if strike has been called by majority and said person decides by personal choice not to follow the majority and goes to work, then that said person is a scab.

[PaulSmith]

I had 12 years as a postman, it was the easiest job i ever had. I started at 5.15am and was finished at 9.30, 10am at the latest. My golf handicap plummeted when employed by the post office.:thumbsup: I hear its a little harder these days.:confused:

Never sure if your at the wind up or not BH but I know several Posties and that story is actually not that far fetched in all their cases.

Most actually 'finished' after 4 hours then decided to stay on for a few hours more at double time.

This has occurred for the last 15 years that I've known said Posties but recently I know they've not been happy at managers working them into a modern workforce

[Beefster]

Beef. Six million over 5 years. 6 million. Yeah he is doing his bit alright.
And you saw one muppet on tv who didn't have a clue. So that's us all idiots who are blindly following the union? Come on mate get real. If you and the "rest of the country" (wee bit of a generalisation there mate) don't understand why we are going on strike it's because you can't be bothered to find out. Plenty on here have tried to explain it. Including myself. Still folk complain about the service they receive, then go on to say we are in the wrong to try and do something about it? Said it before you can either have a mail service where you get letters through your door every day, or you can have a service where you get nowt unless you pay through the nose just to get a delivery.

If option 2 is for you then don't say you weren't warned.

Crozier's running a company with over 100,000 employees and has made them profitable. I don't really see the problem with him earning a salary to reflect that.

I don't know all the reasons because every CWU official and member that I've seen interviewed in the media has tried to spin it into a noble cause. Just as Royal Mail have done the opposite. If it was all about the service to customers, why not strike when the second delivery was scrapped and most mail started to be delivered 5 hours later than normal?

I'm not saying that the CWU/employees are idiots either, just that I don't agree with their actions. They're not securing the future of the company when major clients are walking away because of this dispute. They're also giving the economy a kick in the baws just when it looked like things were getting better.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Crozier's running a company with over 100,000 employees and has made them profitable. I don't really see the problem with him earning a salary to reflect that.

I don't know all the reasons because every CWU official and member that I've seen interviewed in the media has tried to spin it into a noble cause. Just as Royal Mail have done the opposite. If it was all about the service to customers, why not strike when the second delivery was scrapped and most mail started to be delivered 5 hours later than normal?

I'm not saying that the CWU/employees are idiots either, just that I don't agree with their actions. They're not securing the future of the company when major clients are walking away because of this dispute. They're also giving the economy a kick in the baws just when it looked like things were getting better.

:bitchy: Utter rubbish. Firstly, nobody deserves that kind of salary.

Secondly, he's running a company that is placing unfair demands on its employees and using bully boy tactics. Do you want to try maintaining an average speed of 5mph with a 16kg bag to carry?

[_hucks_]

Not got the time to wade into the debate just now - I just want to post a message of support and solidarity with any posties reading this just now :thumbsup:

---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ----------


I thought the whole point if a union was to protect workers rights:dunno:

An individuals decision to strike should be determined by personal choice not by an obligation to follow a majority.

Oh, i couldnt resist.

So, do you think, if the vote for a strike had been defeated 55% to 45%, that the 45% should still strike? As your logic dictates that you should.

[lapsedhibee]

Do you want to try maintaining an average speed of 5mph with a 16kg bag to carry?
Question: Is 16kg the average or the initial load?

[Beefster]

:bitchy: Utter rubbish. Firstly, nobody deserves that kind of salary.

Secondly, he's running a company that is placing unfair demands on its employees and using bully boy tactics. Do you want to try maintaining an average speed of 5mph with a 16kg bag to carry?

The first point is 'in your opinion' of course. Everything I said in the bit you highlighted is a statement of fact.

It's easy for those of us who don't earn vast sums to say 'no-one deserves it' yet you probably cheer on young guys who earn £250k pa for kicking a ball and if it's Scotland, £2.5m pa. Crozier runs a utility at the centre of British life.

I've never heard about this average speed to bag weight thing before. Not one of the union officials or posties I've heard had mentioned it. So the strike isn't about securing the future of the company?

I've been unhappy at work before so I got another job. As one Labour politician said today, there's plenty of unemployed people would jump at the chance to work as a postie.

[ArabHibee]

The first point is 'in your opinion' of course. Everything I said in the bit you highlighted is a statement of fact.

It's easy for those of us who don't earn vast sums to say 'no-one deserves it' yet you probably cheer on young guys who earn £250k pa for kicking a ball and if it's Scotland, £2.5m pa. Crozier runs a utility at the centre of British life.

I've never heard about this average speed to bag weight thing before. Not one of the union officials or posties I've heard had mentioned it. So the strike isn't about securing the future of the company?

I've been unhappy at work before so I got another job. As one Labour politician said today, there's plenty of unemployed people would jump at the chance to work as a postie.

Yes, you are correct that many people would jump at the chance to be employed. But at what cost? Minimum wage and crap hours? And then extra hours on the top of that with no pay? Methinks not.

[blackpoolhibs]

Never sure if your at the wind up or not BH but I know several Posties and that story is actually not that far fetched in all their cases.

Most actually 'finished' after 4 hours then decided to stay on for a few hours more at double time.

This has occurred for the last 15 years that I've known said Posties but recently I know they've not been happy at managers working them into a modern workforce

I can assure you i am not at the wind up. That was my hours from the day i started to the day i left. There was always plenty overtime too, and that was done before my 8 normal hours were up. It seems thats not the case now, but i got away with murder for 12 years, we all did.

[Beefster]

Yes, you are correct that many people would jump at the chance to be employed. But at what cost? Minimum wage and crap hours? And then extra hours on the top of that with no pay? Methinks not.

We keep getting told that the strike is 'for the future of the company and improving the service to customers'. No matter.

There is also a top-notch final salary pension scheme for most of them. Someone said today on the radio that the average postie works a 40 hour week. Bear in mind that it's not only posties who are striking either - not everyone is paid the same.

If you think that a lot of folk earning between £47 and £60 a week on the dole wouldn't take that, I'd think you were probably wrong. In the general scheme of things, there are millions worse off employment-wise than Royal Mail workers.

[Woody1985]

:bitchy: Utter rubbish. Firstly, nobody deserves that kind of salary.

Secondly, he's running a company that is placing unfair demands on its employees and using bully boy tactics. Do you want to try maintaining an average speed of 5mph with a 16kg bag to carry?

Yes, but the bag gets lighter and by the sound of it most people get their rounds done in 4/5 hours and always have done. Sounds like this is just being piggy backed on to the cause.

Although after reading this I agree with the strike but prior to it I never took much interest. Although as someone has mentioned, why no strike during phase 2 if the main interest is the service to the public? There is usually other agendas but ones that carry most favour with the public will be mentioned first.


Question: Is 16kg the average or the initial load?

Initial, that is the maximum and then it's a sliding scale down to 13kg if you take out more than one in a day (based on what I've read here).

[Green Mikey]

Not got the time to wade into the debate just now - I just want to post a message of support and solidarity with any posties reading this just now :thumbsup:

---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ----------



Oh, i couldnt resist.

So, do you think, if the vote for a strike had been defeated 55% to 45%, that the 45% should still strike? As your logic dictates that you should.


You clearly misunderstood my point. The previous poster implied that people were under an obligation to do what the majority decide and this is the reason for joining a union. I countered this assertion that by joining a union you should not surrender your personal choice. Do you believe that you should forego your freedom of choice if you join an organisation and this is a reason for union membership?

Oh, if i couldn't resist posting unfounded nonsense I would refrain from doing so in the future.

[Steve-O]

We keep getting told that the strike is 'for the future of the company and improving the service to customers'. No matter.

There is also a top-notch final salary pension scheme for most of them. Someone said today on the radio that the average postie works a 40 hour week. Bear in mind that it's not only posties who are striking either - not everyone is paid the same.

If you think that a lot of folk earning between £47 and £60 a week on the dole wouldn't take that, I'd think you were probably wrong. In the general scheme of things, there are millions worse off employment-wise than Royal Mail workers.

Pretty sure they are doing their damndest to end this practice, and I don't think anyone new is getting that any more.

[Beefster]

Pretty sure they are doing their damndest to end this practice, and I don't think anyone new is getting that any more.

As most private sectors companies have already done. Either way, even if it is ended, the benefits up to the cessation date will be guaranteed.

[Woody1985]

As most private sectors companies have already done. Either way, even if it is ended, the benefits up to the cessation date will be guaranteed.

The same happened with my company.

Oh, and why do the ******* government not let you accrue company pensions until you are 20? I was working at 17 and could have built up 4/5 years of final salary but ended up with 1/2 due to it being closed by the company. :grr:

[archiebald]

The dossers who say sack them all would not get out there beds for that money ! never mind walk in the rain for 5 hours delivering the mail. :bitchy:

[Woody1985]

The dossers who say sack them all would not get out there beds for that money ! never mind walk in the rain for 5 hours delivering the mail. :bitchy:

I had a look at the pay scales on the RM site and I wasn't impressed at all. Also, why are the RM allowed to discriminate based on age. It specifically says that your starting salary will be based on age and increase after 6 months.

I know that in the real world younger workers are always paid less, trust me, I know. I work harder and do a better job than people 15 years older than me yet still get paid thousands a year less. :grr:

However, the publically state on your site that you are discriminating based on age is shocking. There is no mention of ability to do the job.

[archiebald]

Will probably be continental shifts next :bitchy:

[archiebald]

Pension is hardly top notch nowadays :bitchy: deflects away from banks and expences robbers :rolleyes:

[Dashing Bob S]

Who has said they have more right to strike than anyone else? I don't think anyone has even come close to suggesting that. The right to withdraw your labour is universal - or should be.



Unions are 'outdated institutions'?

If you're willing to accept assaults on your pay/conditions that's fine, but don't castigate people who are not willing to accept it.

If, however, you are not willing to accept it, you still have the right to join or form a union and engage in collective bargaining with your fellow workers. It isn't rocket science.



Public sympathy can be important but it's fair from the be-all-and-end-all of a strike.

Again as above, you do not just have to accept your lot or move on.



I'm sorry, but that passage is too much.

Absolutely disgusting.



I don't think this got the proper level of appreciation.



Great post.


Nor do I. Was waiting for someone to bring it up.

Enjoyed with and agreed with, all of your posts on this issue, and many of the others too. But reading this general thread, it's sad there are indeed many people who go around eating caviar while punching foxes legs.

[Beefster]

I had a look at the pay scales on the RM site and I wasn't impressed at all. Also, why are the RM allowed to discriminate based on age. It specifically says that your starting salary will be based on age and increase after 6 months.

It says:

Basic Pay
As a guide, new employees aged 18 and over will receive basic pay of around £256 a week for full-time hours rising to £285 - £311 after 1 year. This rate will be on a pro-rata basis for part-time hours. Higher rates are paid in Inner and Outer London and in some parts of the South East.

That's not age discrimination. Someone starting at 50 would be paid the same as a 20 year old.


Pension is hardly top notch nowadays :bitchy: deflects away from banks and expences robbers :rolleyes:

A final salary pension scheme? Not top notch nowadays? Do me a favour.

[Danderhall Hibs]

A final salary pension scheme? Not top notch nowadays? Do me a favour.

Depends what your final salary is...

[Woody1985]

It says:

Basic Pay
As a guide, new employees aged 18 and over will receive basic pay of around £256 a week for full-time hours rising to £285 - £311 after 1 year. This rate will be on a pro-rata basis for part-time hours. Higher rates are paid in Inner and Outer London and in some parts of the South East.

That's not age discrimination. Someone starting at 50 would be paid the same as a 20 year old.



A final salary pension scheme? Not top notch nowadays? Do me a favour.

Re the basic pay, I've had a look at the RM site and you're correct.

I looked at a site yesterday that had pay scales going from £200odds to 360odds and it mentioned starting salary was dependant on age. Perhaps it was on a job agency but it had a grid with the different pay.

Perhaps I interpreted it wrongly but I was pretty sure that's what it said cos I posted here shortyly after.

[Beefster]

Depends what your final salary is...

Indeed. But in 99% of cases, anyone with a final salary scheme would be worse off under defined contribution.

[ArabHibee]

Indeed. But in 99% of cases, anyone with a final salary scheme would be worse off under defined contribution.

Even if they are on a final salary pension scheme, doesn't add up to a pile of beans if you get made redundant does it? Or make it right that they have to work extra hours for no pay?

"Aye boss, I don't mind doing 2 hours extra, 6 days a week for the next 30 odd years until I retire, coz I'm on a finaly salary pension scheme." :confused:

[Expecting Rain]

If the posties decided to accept a 50% wage cut and agreed to work extra hours at xmas for nothing i`m sure some folk would come on accuse them of depriving the xmas casual workers of money.

[hibsbollah]

If the posties decided to accept a 50% wage cut and agreed to work extra hours at xmas for nothing i`m sure some folk would come on accuse them of depriving the xmas casual workers of money.

:faf:
although i see from the other thread that the majority of the small number who voted support the strike...

[Sumner]

Mon the Posties! :agree:

[Beefster]

Even if they are on a final salary pension scheme, doesn't add up to a pile of beans if you get made redundant does it? Or make it right that they have to work extra hours for no pay?

"Aye boss, I don't mind doing 2 hours extra, 6 days a week for the next 30 odd years until I retire, coz I'm on a finaly salary pension scheme." :confused:

The first point - they accrue service up to the date of redundancy so it amounts to more than a pile of beans. It's a safe assumption that whatever pension they've accrued can be multiplied by 20 (at least) to get the cost of providing that pension. You'd be amazed how much it costs.

Anyway, AFAIK Royal Mail have only made 1 compulsory redundancy in the last several years and the CWU have already accepted that staff numbers need to be reduced so I'm not sure what points you're making.

Are they being asked to work extra hours or work their contracted hours? The impression that I've been given is that it's the latter. If so, I don't see the problem.

Or are you saying that RM don't pay overtime?

[--------]

It says:

Basic Pay
As a guide, new employees aged 18 and over will receive basic pay of around £256 a week for full-time hours rising to £285 - £311 after 1 year. This rate will be on a pro-rata basis for part-time hours. Higher rates are paid in Inner and Outer London and in some parts of the South East.

That's not age discrimination. Someone starting at 50 would be paid the same as a 20 year old.



£16,172 p.a. after one year for what's not exactly a skilled job? With overtime available and pension? Better than a lot of people are earning at 19.

Especially when the service provided ain't all that good. :cool2:

[Woody1985]

I personally think the service we get just now is pretty decent. I get post almost every day, I suspect the days I don't are the days I don't have any post to be delivered.

I know if I send a letter it'll be there is a day or two. If I have something that I need to know will defo be delivered/give me a record of it I send it rec del.

[ArabHibee]

The first point - they accrue service up to the date of redundancy so it amounts to more than a pile of beans. It's a safe assumption that whatever pension they've accrued can be multiplied by 20 (at least) to get the cost of providing that pension. You'd be amazed how much it costs.

Anyway, AFAIK Royal Mail have only made 1 compulsory redundancy in the last several years and the CWU have already accepted that staff numbers need to be reduced so I'm not sure what points you're making.

Are they being asked to work extra hours or work their contracted hours? The impression that I've been given is that it's the latter. If so, I don't see the problem.

Or are you saying that RM don't pay overtime?

Yes, a final salary pension scheme or to give it its proper name "defined benefits" pension will mostly always be better than a "defined contributions" pension. I would also seriously doubt that anyone now joining the Royal Mail and possibly for the last few years would be allowed to join the final salary scheme as most companies closed this door when the pension pots went belly up about 5 years ago.

The point I am trying to make is that you would have to have been with the company for a good few years for your final salary pension to really be worth anything. For example, if you had been with the company for 5 years and retired on 25,000, you would receive a pension of approx 2100 per year. Hardly a pile of beans, would you not agree.

Please don't try and tell me about pensions, its what I do for a job.

The other point I would like to make is that you seem to think that they should just bend over and take it from the management because they have some "perks" in their employment. I don't agree with this. And I do believe they are working extra hours and not getting paid for it. I'm sure a couple of posties have already been on saying this. And the 1 complusory redundancy you talk about probably doesn't take into account the other posties who were probably on long term temporary contracts who got hoofed.

[Beefster]

Yes, a final salary pension scheme or to give it its proper name "defined benefits" pension will mostly always be better than a "defined contributions" pension. I would also seriously doubt that anyone now joining the Royal Mail and possibly for the last few years would be allowed to join the final salary scheme as most companies closed this door when the pension pots went belly up about 5 years ago.

The point I am trying to make is that you would have to have been with the company for a good few years for your final salary pension to really be worth anything. For example, if you had been with the company for 5 years and retired on 25,000, you would receive a pension of approx 2100 per year. Hardly a pile of beans, would you not agree.

That's exactly the point I was making.




Please don't try and tell me about pensions, its what I do for a job.

Awesome. We both know all about pensions then.




The other point I would like to make is that you seem to think that they should just bend over and take it from the management because they have some "perks" in their employment. I don't agree with this. And I do believe they are working extra hours and not getting paid for it. I'm sure a couple of posties have already been on saying this. And the 1 complusory redundancy you talk about probably doesn't take into account the other posties who were probably on long term temporary contracts who got hoofed.

No, if there's genuine grievances, I don't expect them to 'bend over and take it" but we've got some folk saying they've got it easy and don't work their hours (including ex-posties) and some saying it's so so bad. It can't be both.

Anyway, people all over the country work extra hours for no formal reward without feeling the need to damage the country and economy.

As for not renewing contracts, by definition, the contracts were temporary. Companies are well within their rights not to renew temporary contracts. Again, I don't see the problem. The CWU has already agreed that jobs need to be shed. Surely they'd rather it was temporary contracts going rather than permanent employees.

[Hibeebob]

No, if there's genuine grievances, I don't expect them to 'bend over and take it" but we've got some folk saying they've got it easy and don't work their hours (including ex-posties) and some saying it's so so bad. It can't be both.

Yep you are right "ex-posties" the job I do now is massively different from the one I did 5 years ago. Mibbies the odd postie did finish a bit early in the past if they wanted to finish early to get to easter road and they were willing to bolt a bit they could.
I had to give up my season ticket due to the first phase of modernisation.

Now the job is quite a different one indeed you bolt round regardless cause if you don't you can expect nowt in the way of o t.

Having said that at this moment in time it feels like we are lambs to the slaughter. Whether I agree or not don't matter. It's a fight I don't think we can win so I say let them screw it. Then we can say " there's your mail pal see ye next week"

I don't know if it's worth staying in the union. I feel both obliged to and, intimidated a bit too if we are being totally honest.
It's not that I don't agree with what we are fighting for, I just think we don't have public backing, and the goverment even hates us.

If rm get there way I don't doubt the job will get even harder. Older posties will lose there jobs due to fitness. And I will lose another three stone. (I wasn't fat) the service will be horrific. But no doubt they will make a profit.

I like my job.

I want to work.

[ArabHibee]

That's exactly the point I was making.

Was it? You said that final salary pensions are the mutt's nuts and I'm saying that that is only the case if you have had one for a long time. Unless you think a pension of 2100 a year for 5 year's service will see you ok in your retirement?

Awesome. We both know all about pensions then.

Intellectual response. Thought you were better than that.

No, if there's genuine grievances, I don't expect them to 'bend over and take it" but we've got some folk saying they've got it easy and don't work their hours (including ex-posties) and some saying it's so so bad. It can't be both.

Anyway, people all over the country work extra hours for no formal reward without feeling the need to damage the country and economy.

I think that's bollocks. If they had the right to strike they probably would. I know I would, but I work in the private sector with no union in the workplace. We're currently being shafted by management. What am I doing about it? I'll be leaving soon.

As for not renewing contracts, by definition, the contracts were temporary. Companies are well within their rights not to renew temporary contracts. Again, I don't see the problem. The CWU has already agreed that jobs need to be shed. Surely they'd rather it was temporary contracts going rather than permanent employees.

You just don't get it do you? Companies like this (and mine) have people on temporary contracts for years, so that they can bin them at the drop of a hat.


I was going to explain about the ex-posties that have been on here but hibeebob has aleady done that above.

[H18sry]

That plum Crozier is on the Andrew Marr show now :grr:

Getting ripped to shreds by Andy Marr aswell :faf::faf: goan urself Andy :thumbsup:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/The_andrew_marr_show

About 40 mins in

[Beefster]

Was it? You said that final salary pensions are the mutt's nuts and I'm saying that that is only the case if you have had one for a long time. Unless you think a pension of 2100 a year for 5 year's service will see you ok in your retirement?

Intellectual response. Thought you were better than that.

I think that's bollocks. If they had the right to strike they probably would. I know I would, but I work in the private sector with no union in the workplace. We're currently being shafted by management. What am I doing about it? I'll be leaving soon.

You just don't get it do you? Companies like this (and mine) have people on temporary contracts for years, so that they can bin them at the drop of a hat.
I was going to explain about the ex-posties that have been on here but hibeebob has aleady done that above.

In order:

Then we still disagree. I think that a guaranteed annuity of £2100 p.a. after 5 years (which may be non-contributory) is great. It's pretty much 20% or greater of the salary being paid as a pension contribution each year by RM. It leaves about 35 years to build up more pensions entitlement at RM or elsewhere.

I'm not sure what you were expecting then. We obviously both do know about pensions. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about pensions!

Your workplace obviously don't have a union because the collective workforce have rejected it at some point. But, if they're a crap employer, then I'd do the same thing as you - leave. I've gone through the whole process of attempting to a union into a workplace but it was overwhelmingly rejected.

If people are putting up with temporary contracts for years then they must be aware that, at some point, it's either going to be renewed, not renewed and they'll be let go or they'll be taken onto permanent staff. Again, I don't see the problem - no-one is being forced to stay under a temporary contract. There are thousands of employers to choose from that offer permanent contracts as standard.

I do sympathise with guys like Hibeebob who seems to be stuck in the middle between the CWU and RM though. I don't think that the employer or the union necessarily have their employees/members interests as a priority. But that's a whole other issue.

[ArabHibee]

In order:

Then we still disagree. I think that a guaranteed annuity of £2100 p.a. after 5 years (which may be non-contributory) is great. It's pretty much 20% or greater of the salary being paid as a pension contribution each year by RM. It leaves about 35 years to build up more pensions entitlement at RM or elsewhere.

I'm not sure what you were expecting then. We obviously both do know about pensions. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about pensions!

Your workplace obviously don't have a union because the collective workforce have rejected it at some point. But, if they're a crap employer, then I'd do the same thing as you - leave. I've gone through the whole process of attempting to a union into a workplace but it was overwhelmingly rejected.

If people are putting up with temporary contracts for years then they must be aware that, at some point, it's either going to be renewed, not renewed and they'll be let go or they'll be taken onto permanent staff. Again, I don't see the problem - no-one is being forced to stay under a temporary contract. There are thousands of employers to choose from that offer permanent contracts as standard.

I do sympathise with guys like Hibeebob who seems to be stuck in the middle between the CWU and RM though. I don't think that the employer or the union necessarily have their employees/members interests as a priority. But that's a whole other issue.

Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

On the point of my workplace not having a union, I can quite categorically confirm to you that at no point in the 120 years that my company has been trading has anyone ever tried to form a union or have a union recognised within the company. Sad, I know.

[Hibs90]

At the expense of others. These guys have to live with this - he just wants some beer money for Christmas. Very selfish and thoughtless.
.

Its their choice, they didn't have to go on strike if they didn't want to. They should just be lucky they have jobs at the end of the day as the number of unemployed in this country is a disgrace.

[Hibeebob]

Thats it, black and white eh ? :rolleyes:

[ArabHibee]

Its their choice, they didn't have to go on strike if they didn't want to. They should just be lucky they have jobs at the end of the day as the number of unemployed in this country is a disgrace.

That's constructive isn't it?

Do you have any idea why they are on strike?

[Woody1985]

Originally Posted by Beefster http://www.hibs.net/message/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=2216801#post2216801)
That's exactly the point I was making.

Was it? You said that final salary pensions are the mutt's nuts and I'm saying that that is only the case if you have had one for a long time. Unless you think a pension of 2100 a year for 5 year's service will see you ok in your retirement?

Awesome. We both know all about pensions then.

Intellectual response. Thought you were better than that.

No, if there's genuine grievances, I don't expect them to 'bend over and take it" but we've got some folk saying they've got it easy and don't work their hours (including ex-posties) and some saying it's so so bad. It can't be both.

Anyway, people all over the country work extra hours for no formal reward without feeling the need to damage the country and economy.

I think that's bollocks. If they had the right to strike they probably would. I know I would, but I work in the private sector with no union in the workplace. We're currently being shafted by management. What am I doing about it? I'll be leaving soon.

As for not renewing contracts, by definition, the contracts were temporary. Companies are well within their rights not to renew temporary contracts. Again, I don't see the problem. The CWU has already agreed that jobs need to be shed. Surely they'd rather it was temporary contracts going rather than permanent employees.

You just don't get it do you? Companies like this (and mine) have people on temporary contracts for years, so that they can bin them at the drop of a hat.


I was going to explain about the ex-posties that have been on here but hibeebob has aleady done that above.

All of ArabHibee's comments in bold. I've commented the underlined part.

It makes financial sense for companies to take on temporary workers. Temporary workers generally get a crap deal compared to full time but that's life.

If you look at the IT profession there are alot of companies that will only take people on short term contracts or for specific projects. These guys need to go and find work every couple of months. Admittedly they do get a handsome sum for their efforts but if they were full time they would get benefits and pension contributions from the employer aswell.

Just the way it is unfortunately.

[LiverpoolHibs]

The London Review of Books are providing pretty excellent coverage of this. Another great letter from a postie in this fortnight's issue. The rank and file seem considerably more adept at stating the workers' case than anyone in the union's top echelons, although of course they're not helped by an incredibly hostile media.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n21/letters.html

Like Roy Mayall writing in your issue of 24 September, I am a postman and concerned at the absence in the media of any account of how mail delivery is organised and what Royal Mail’s modernisation programme entails. The programme was introduced because the popularity of email and texting has caused a drop in mail volume. Royal Mail’s first step was to reduce the number of walks. It did this by cutting some walks in each area and making the remaining walks longer. A postman who normally delivered mail to six streets, say, now found himself delivering to eight or nine. During the summer months, when mail volumes were low, he could, perhaps, just cope with this. But as autumn begins and the Christmas catalogues start to come out, every week and sometimes every day can be heavy. In the run-up to last Christmas, there were postmen who only finished their walks at 7 or 8 p.m., sometimes two or three times a week. In one depot alone, around 15 postmen phoned in sick. This Christmas, with the even longer walks, it could be worse. Royal Mail is a strong promoter of general health and safety, but as the walks lengthen and the loads increase, many of us feel that our own health isn’t being taken into consideration.

The next step in the modernisation was to stop overtime. The new, longer walks were generated by a computer program called Pegasus. We were assured that Pegasus had made all the new walks around three hours long. Some of the walks were indeed three hours long, and the postmen on those rounds had no trouble completing them in time. But a significant number turned out to be considerably longer – some of them up to four and a half hours long – and mail began piling up as postmen brought post back at the end of the day because they couldn’t deliver their loads without working extra, unpaid time.

The most recently introduced measure is to return from a four-day week to a five-day week. For postmen working a 40-hour week, this means there will be two hours fewer each day to deliver the same amount of post. It is now no longer possible for any postman – including those doing the three-hour walks – to complete his or her walk in the allotted time, no matter how fast they walk. As the pressures increase, many postmen who have been with Royal Mail for a long time are taking voluntary redundancy. A lot of knowledgeable, hard-working postmen are leaving.

Postmen speculate endlessly as to why Royal Mail is making it impossible for us to do our job properly. The most common theory is that Royal Mail actually wants to get rid of us and replace us with casual workers. Traditionally, Royal Mail hires casual staff to help deliver the heavy Christmas mail. This year the casuals never left. As required, they can be phoned at a moment’s notice to come in and help out. They may be asked to work for just a few hours or a whole day. If mail volumes are low, they are not called and are not paid. When paid, they are paid less per hour than the full-time postmen. And because, as casual workers, they cannot join the union, they have no representation if and when things go wrong. At present Royal Mail favours the casuals, but in time, if they start experiencing the pressures the postmen are facing now, there won’t be a union to protect them. In contrast to the casuals, postmen are mostly on 40-hour-week contracts. When they go on holiday or get sick, Royal Mail continues to pay their salaries. All these costs and difficulties fall away with casual workers. From a financial perspective, Royal Mail may think that getting rid of its long-serving postmen is worth it.

Maybe the fact that Royal Mail is now run by managers who have little or no hands-on experience and who use computer-generated models to organise everything is the explanation. We experienced this directly with Pegasus when some walks turned out to be considerably longer than others. The data that had been fed into Pegasus were standardised: each walk had a set number of destinations, with so many seconds to walk up a garden path, so many seconds to put letters through a letterbox etc. Not only did Pegasus get the total timings spectacularly wrong, but the walks made much less sense than when they were organised by the postmen themselves: for instance, a postman could find himself walking an extra 200 yards down the road to deliver mail to six letterboxes that would have more easily and naturally fitted into someone else’s walk.

A more cynical theory is that Royal Mail is being deliberately run into the ground so that when the next opportunity to privatise it comes around, people will be so fed up that they will accept it as the unavoidable solution to getting their post on time again.

A postman on a 40-hour contract works an eight-hour day on average. He or she spends the first two or three hours sorting the unsorted mail in the depots. He then takes 30 minutes for breakfast. For the next two or three hours he sequences the mail for his own walk so that he can deliver it door to door. He then has to travel to and from his walk and deliver his mail in the remaining time. It can’t be done, at least not without overtime, which Royal Mail has stopped altogether. Casual workers, however, don’t have to sort mail at the depot – this is done for them by the postmen on 40-hour contracts. Instead, they move straight to sequencing their door-to-door mail. When they leave the depot, they can take as long as they need to deliver their mail. On the heavier walks, some work 12-hour days. That’s how long it really takes to sequence and deliver some walks – and that’s without sorting!

Working for Royal Mail has become a bewildering experience. Depot managers pressure and harass us to comply to rigidly fixed unworkable schedules. They insist we take out full loads of mail, which they know and we know cannot be delivered in the allotted time. We therefore constantly bring back the undelivered surplus and waste time the following day getting it ready to take out again. Meanwhile, the depot managers can report the walk as cleared to their superiors, who are obviously putting them under pressure too. It’s evident that some depot managers are just as unhappy with this state of affairs. Their orders are to push out as much mail every day as possible, regardless of the amount that comes back at the end of each shift.

Of course the strike is adding to the chaos, but it is not causing it. The one-day-a-week strike – now countrywide – is an attempt to pressure Royal Mail to come to the table to discuss the dire situation and a way for postmen to express support and solidarity with one another as we face an onslaught of unmeetable demands.

Pat Stamp
London W10

[Woody1985]

The London Review of Books are providing pretty excellent coverage of this. Another great letter from a postie in this fortnight's issue. The rank and file seem considerably more adept at stating the workers' case than anyone in the union's top echelons, although of course they're not helped by an incredibly hostile media.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n21/letters.html

Like Roy Mayall writing in your issue of 24 September, I am a postman and concerned at the absence in the media of any account of how mail delivery is organised and what Royal Mail’s modernisation programme entails. The programme was introduced because the popularity of email and texting has caused a drop in mail volume. Royal Mail’s first step was to reduce the number of walks. It did this by cutting some walks in each area and making the remaining walks longer. A postman who normally delivered mail to six streets, say, now found himself delivering to eight or nine. During the summer months, when mail volumes were low, he could, perhaps, just cope with this. But as autumn begins and the Christmas catalogues start to come out, every week and sometimes every day can be heavy. In the run-up to last Christmas, there were postmen who only finished their walks at 7 or 8 p.m., sometimes two or three times a week. In one depot alone, around 15 postmen phoned in sick. This Christmas, with the even longer walks, it could be worse. Royal Mail is a strong promoter of general health and safety, but as the walks lengthen and the loads increase, many of us feel that our own health isn’t being taken into consideration.

The next step in the modernisation was to stop overtime. The new, longer walks were generated by a computer program called Pegasus. We were assured that Pegasus had made all the new walks around three hours long. Some of the walks were indeed three hours long, and the postmen on those rounds had no trouble completing them in time. But a significant number turned out to be considerably longer – some of them up to four and a half hours long – and mail began piling up as postmen brought post back at the end of the day because they couldn’t deliver their loads without working extra, unpaid time.

The most recently introduced measure is to return from a four-day week to a five-day week. For postmen working a 40-hour week, this means there will be two hours fewer each day to deliver the same amount of post. It is now no longer possible for any postman – including those doing the three-hour walks – to complete his or her walk in the allotted time, no matter how fast they walk. As the pressures increase, many postmen who have been with Royal Mail for a long time are taking voluntary redundancy. A lot of knowledgeable, hard-working postmen are leaving.

Postmen speculate endlessly as to why Royal Mail is making it impossible for us to do our job properly. The most common theory is that Royal Mail actually wants to get rid of us and replace us with casual workers. Traditionally, Royal Mail hires casual staff to help deliver the heavy Christmas mail. This year the casuals never left. As required, they can be phoned at a moment’s notice to come in and help out. They may be asked to work for just a few hours or a whole day. If mail volumes are low, they are not called and are not paid. When paid, they are paid less per hour than the full-time postmen. And because, as casual workers, they cannot join the union, they have no representation if and when things go wrong. At present Royal Mail favours the casuals, but in time, if they start experiencing the pressures the postmen are facing now, there won’t be a union to protect them. In contrast to the casuals, postmen are mostly on 40-hour-week contracts. When they go on holiday or get sick, Royal Mail continues to pay their salaries. All these costs and difficulties fall away with casual workers. From a financial perspective, Royal Mail may think that getting rid of its long-serving postmen is worth it.

Maybe the fact that Royal Mail is now run by managers who have little or no hands-on experience and who use computer-generated models to organise everything is the explanation. We experienced this directly with Pegasus when some walks turned out to be considerably longer than others. The data that had been fed into Pegasus were standardised: each walk had a set number of destinations, with so many seconds to walk up a garden path, so many seconds to put letters through a letterbox etc. Not only did Pegasus get the total timings spectacularly wrong, but the walks made much less sense than when they were organised by the postmen themselves: for instance, a postman could find himself walking an extra 200 yards down the road to deliver mail to six letterboxes that would have more easily and naturally fitted into someone else’s walk.

A more cynical theory is that Royal Mail is being deliberately run into the ground so that when the next opportunity to privatise it comes around, people will be so fed up that they will accept it as the unavoidable solution to getting their post on time again.

A postman on a 40-hour contract works an eight-hour day on average. He or she spends the first two or three hours sorting the unsorted mail in the depots. He then takes 30 minutes for breakfast. For the next two or three hours he sequences the mail for his own walk so that he can deliver it door to door. He then has to travel to and from his walk and deliver his mail in the remaining time. It can’t be done, at least not without overtime, which Royal Mail has stopped altogether. Casual workers, however, don’t have to sort mail at the depot – this is done for them by the postmen on 40-hour contracts. Instead, they move straight to sequencing their door-to-door mail. When they leave the depot, they can take as long as they need to deliver their mail. On the heavier walks, some work 12-hour days. That’s how long it really takes to sequence and deliver some walks – and that’s without sorting!

Working for Royal Mail has become a bewildering experience. Depot managers pressure and harass us to comply to rigidly fixed unworkable schedules. They insist we take out full loads of mail, which they know and we know cannot be delivered in the allotted time. We therefore constantly bring back the undelivered surplus and waste time the following day getting it ready to take out again. Meanwhile, the depot managers can report the walk as cleared to their superiors, who are obviously putting them under pressure too. It’s evident that some depot managers are just as unhappy with this state of affairs. Their orders are to push out as much mail every day as possible, regardless of the amount that comes back at the end of each shift.

Of course the strike is adding to the chaos, but it is not causing it. The one-day-a-week strike – now countrywide – is an attempt to pressure Royal Mail to come to the table to discuss the dire situation and a way for postmen to express support and solidarity with one another as we face an onslaught of unmeetable demands.


Pat Stamp
London W10

Interesting read.

It sounds like a lot of this is down to ticking boxes and everything appearing okay when it's not.

Check out the name or the author. :faf:

[RyeSloan]

Some interesting and not unsurprising views in this thread!

Personally I believe strikes can and are simply self defeating so in no way support the Posties strike no matter how correct or otherwise their disension to their own companies management may be.

It is clear to see that 'Management' and the 'Workforce' are so split in the RM that any change is deemed hostile and that even (however rare that might currently be) effective change will be stymied and resisted.

RM will ultimately fail if this total unwillingness of it's workers to embrace change and it's managenent continue to fail to implement the correct change and manage their business effectively....some might say it would be a sad loss of a grand institution but I'm more and more coming to the view that due to the horrendous difficulties that RM, it's staff and managers seem to have in agreeing what the future shape of the company might be then the only a total disolution of the status quo and a brand new ground up postal framework will resolve what will otherwise continue to be a slow and painful death.