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CB_NO3
10-10-2009, 05:30 PM
I dont understand why people on this board would want to get rid of the old firm. The SPL would not get a TV deal so you could kiss goodbye to the 60 million we recieved from SKY so teams like Hibs and Hearts etc would be operating with a 200k a year kitty meaning we would have vauxhall conference type players playing in the league. You would not see players like Stokes, Zemmama and Miller etc at ER with the wages we could offer. We would drop so far down in the euro co-efficiant that we would get one Champions League spot but we would have to play about 3 or 4 qualifying rounds meaning you would probably not see a Scottish team in the Champions League ever again. It would also be cringe worthy winning the league or cup without the Old Firm. I would rather finish 2nd in the spl with them in it.

As for their sectarian pi55, let them sing their songs, I dont take any offence to it, it does not bother me in anyway and am sure it doesn't bother anyone on this board but some people will still fell the need to moan about it after a game against the Old Firm.

Anyway I want them to stay and suffer in the SPL and suffer in Europe, they are in decline (there was still tickets for last weeks game available in the Huns end). They cant afford to pay big wages meaning they are signing **** players aka Broadfoot, Fox and so on. I think we will benifit in the long run because we have nothing to loose, lets face it we have been pi55 for 30 years now.

Killiehibbie
10-10-2009, 05:35 PM
I would pish myself laughing if they went all the back to the early 80's with a few thousand at ibrox and not that many more at parkhead. Watch them suffer and die here.

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 05:36 PM
Hardly...

The OF get so much media coverage because they are the top 2 sides in the SPL.

When the OF p!ss off.... it would only be a matter of time before a couple of other teams in the league would start dominating (Hibs being a massive contender)

Who's to say that 2 new teams dominating the league wouldnt get the same media coverage as Celtic and Rangers do right now?

IMO... It would only be a matter of time before Hibs and other clubs support bases increase.

When this happens, the clubs will be bringing in more money through the gates, teams will get money for qualifying for the CL and the Uefa Cup... and because of this... support for these clubs would increase even more.... which would then grab even more media attention... etc...

We don't need Celtic or Rangers in the SPL. :bye:

Beefster
10-10-2009, 05:38 PM
Hardly...

The OF get so much media coverage because they are the top 2 sides in the SPL.

When the OF p!ss off.... it would only be a matter of time before a couple of other teams in the league would start dominating (Hibs being a massive contender)

Who's to say that 2 new teams dominating the league wouldnt get the same media coverage as Celtic and Rangers do right now?

IMO... It would only be a matter of time before Hibs and other clubs support bases increase.

When this happens, the clubs will be bringing in more money through the gates, teams will get money for qualifying for the CL and the Uefa Cup... and because of this... support for these clubs would increase even more.... which would then grab even more media attention... etc...

We don't need Celtic or Rangers in the SPL. :bye:

When the Old Firm are playing in, arguably, the greatest league in the world and likely being relatively successful, why would our support base increase in any meaningful way?

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 05:43 PM
When the Old Firm are playing in, arguably, the greatest league in the world and likely being relatively successful, why would our support base increase in any meaningful way?

As it stands...

The OF are having a hard enough time in the SPL.

I can't see them being that successful in the EPL.

If they go to the EPL... I can't seem them qualifying for the CL for many many years (if ever).... thats when their glory hunting followers will be found out for what they are.

Their support will drop fairly rapidly.... and because of this... they will find it even more difficult to maintain a place in the top half.

Cool_Hand_Luke
10-10-2009, 05:47 PM
I dont understand why people on this board would want to get rid of the old firm. The SPL would not get a TV deal so you could kiss goodbye to the 60 million we recieved from SKY so teams like Hibs and Hearts etc would be operating with a 200k a year kitty meaning we would have vauxhall conference type players playing in the league. You would not see players like Stokes, Zemmama and Miller etc at ER with the wages we could offer. We would drop so far down in the euro co-efficiant that we would get one Champions League spot but we would have to play about 3 or 4 qualifying rounds meaning you would probably not see a Scottish team in the Champions League ever again. It would also be cringe worthy winning the league or cup without the Old Firm. I would rather finish 2nd in the spl with them in it.

As for their sectarian pi55, let them sing their songs, I dont take any offence to it, it does not bother me in anyway and am sure it doesn't bother anyone on this board but some people will still fell the need to moan about it after a game against the Old Firm.

Anyway I want them to stay and suffer in the SPL and suffer in Europe, they are in decline (there was still tickets for last weeks game available in the Huns end). They cant afford to pay big wages meaning they are signing **** players aka Broadfoot, Fox and so on. I think we will benifit in the long run because we have nothing to loose, lets face it we have been pi55 for 30 years now.

How much of this 60m do Hibs (and other non old firm clubs) receive :dunno:
Pretty sure its not an even split :agree:

I would imagine there would still be a TV deal in place that would give the non old firm clubs roughly the same as what they get now...

007 Mickey Weir
10-10-2009, 05:48 PM
SPL is dire just now. Teams like Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen would all benefit from the OF leaving. Its the other teams that depend on 4 games with old firm. It woul take a couple of years to adjust. but we could change to SPL1 & SPL2. Both with 18 teams. Then regional leagues after that.
we could also offer to start a UK Cup.

Something needs to change in the next few years. i vote for this.

CB_NO3
10-10-2009, 06:15 PM
How much of this 60m do Hibs (and other non old firm clubs) receive :dunno:
Pretty sure its not an even split :agree:

I would imagine there would still be a TV deal in place that would give the non old firm clubs roughly the same as what they get now...
Who in the right mind would pay cash to watch Dundee United V Hibs or Aberdeen V Motherwell and so on, the TV deal only exists because Rangers and Celtic play every week on TV.

Chuckie
10-10-2009, 06:18 PM
Put down the methamphetamine and step away from the keyboard...

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 06:24 PM
Who in the right mind would pay cash to watch Dundee United V Hibs or Aberdeen V Motherwell and so on, the TV deal only exists because Rangers and Celtic play every week on TV.

That makes no sense. :confused:

Celtic and Rangers play every week on the TV because a TV deal exists.... not the other way around.

And the reason a TV deal exists is because more people would tune in to watch a Celtic or Rangers game over any other game.

And the reason more people would tune in to watch a Celtic or Rangers is because Celtic and Rangers have a bigger fan base.... and the reason Celtic and Rangers have a bigger fan base is because they are the 2 most successful clubs in the SPL.

If Rangers and Celtic were to move to the EPL... within the first few years of winning no silverware... there glory hunting fan base would soon drop considerably... making it even harder for them to win silverware.... the media would no longer be interested in them either.

Where as... new teams in the SPL would soon dominate 1st and 2nd spot... they would then qualify for a CL place nearly every season... and there fan base would soon increase... which would then pick up media attention.

In other words... they would be like a new version of the OF.... but a good version... almost completely free of bigotry and violence.

The OF leaving is the best thing that could happen for the SPL.

But I don't see it happening anytime soon.... because far too many people fear change.

Barney McGrew
10-10-2009, 06:27 PM
As it stands...

The OF are having a hard enough time in the SPL.

I can't see them being that successful in the EPL.

If they go to the EPL... I can't seem them qualifying for the CL for many many years (if ever).... thats when their glory hunting followers will be found out for what they are.

Their support will drop fairly rapidly.... and because of this... they will find it even more difficult to maintain a place in the top half.

That's the great problem the OF will have.

They've got huge numbers of season ticket holders because they're successful, and even now they're stuggling to fill their grounds. If they did go to the EPL, they'd have no problem selling out against the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool but is your average Old Firm supporter going to fork out to see a game against Wigan or Burnley on a Monday night or put up with the hike in season ticket prices that their entry into that league will invariably mean?

A couple of seasons of mediocrity and mid table finishes, coupled with the higher costs would soon see their attendances drop away.

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 06:31 PM
That's the great problem the OF will have.

They've got huge numbers of season ticket holders because they're successful, and even now they're stuggling to fill their grounds. If they did go to the EPL, they'd have no problem selling out against the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool but is your average Old Firm supporter going to fork out to see a game against Wigan or Burnley on a Monday night or put up with the hike in season ticket prices that their entry into that league will invariably mean?

A couple of seasons of mediocrity and mid table finishes, coupled with the higher costs would soon see their attendances drop away.

:agree:

They would probably survive in the premiership, but they would be very mediocre sides, and people would lose interest fast.

Yes... they would have more money... but they will be in a league where money can get used as arse paper.

They will only then be remembered for 1 thing.... bigotry. :agree:

Removed
10-10-2009, 06:32 PM
That makes no sense. :confused:

Celtic and Rangers play every week on the TV because a TV deal exists.... not the other way around.

And the reason a TV deal exists is because more people would tune in to watch a Celtic or Rangers game over any other game.

And the reason more people would tune in to watch a Celtic or Rangers is because Celtic and Rangers have a bigger fan base.... and the reason Celtic and Rangers have a bigger fan base is because they are the 2 most successful clubs in the SPL.

If Rangers and Celtic were to move to the EPL... within the first few years of winning no silverware... there glory hunting fan base would soon drop considerably... making it even harder for them to win silverware.... the media would no longer be interested in them either.

Where as... new teams in the SPL would soon dominate 1st and 2nd spot... they would then qualify for a CL place nearly every season... and there fan base would soon increase... which would then pick up media attention.

In other words... they would be like a new version of the OF.... but a good version... almost completely free of bigotry and violence.

The OF leaving is the best thing that could happen for the SPL.

But I don't see it happening anytime soon.... because far too many people fear change.


I think the only reason there is a tv deal is because of Rangers & Celtic. I doubt without them whether we would get a CL place and if we did it would be max qualifying rounds which no scottish team would get through imo so cant see our fan base increasing from say 40K but our weekly crowds probably would increase if we were in with the chance of winning something - relegation season a perfect example of that.

I agree that the best thing for the SPL is them leaving though - bring it on .

hibsbollah
10-10-2009, 06:34 PM
I dont understand why people on this board would want to get rid of the old firm. The SPL would not get a TV deal so you could kiss goodbye to the 60 million we recieved from SKY so teams like Hibs and Hearts etc would be operating with a 200k a year kitty meaning we would have vauxhall conference type players playing in the league. You would not see players like Stokes, Zemmama and Miller etc at ER with the wages we could offer. We would drop so far down in the euro co-efficiant that we would get one Champions League spot but we would have to play about 3 or 4 qualifying rounds meaning you would probably not see a Scottish team in the Champions League ever again. It would also be cringe worthy winning the league or cup without the Old Firm. I would rather finish 2nd in the spl with them in it.

As for their sectarian pi55, let them sing their songs, I dont take any offence to it, it does not bother me in anyway and am sure it doesn't bother anyone on this board but some people will still fell the need to moan about it after a game against the Old Firm.

Anyway I want them to stay and suffer in the SPL and suffer in Europe, they are in decline (there was still tickets for last weeks game available in the Huns end). They cant afford to pay big wages meaning they are signing **** players aka Broadfoot, Fox and so on. I think we will benifit in the long run because we have nothing to loose, lets face it we have been pi55 for 30 years now.

You're making a lot of assumptions. How do you know we wouldnt get a TV deal?

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 06:35 PM
I think the only reason there is a tv deal is because of Rangers & Celtic.

Don't quite understand the logic in that. :confused:

But I agree with everything else you said. :cool2:

Cool_Hand_Luke
10-10-2009, 06:38 PM
Who in the right mind would pay cash to watch Dundee United V Hibs or Aberdeen V Motherwell and so on, the TV deal only exists because Rangers and Celtic play every week on TV.

Dundee Utd, Hibs, Aberdeen or Motherwell fans maybe :dunno:

Removed
10-10-2009, 06:40 PM
Don't quite understand the logic in that. :confused:

But I agree with everything else you said. :cool2:

Would the bbc, itv or sky pay to send cameras and employ pundits for SPL football without them, I'm not sure. We might get the goals on TV but that's just about all and it would be from feeds like HTV. I really cannot see the Glasgow or London based media, TV or radio being interested in an SPL without the old firm. What would be in it for them?

jakedance
10-10-2009, 06:41 PM
Some very compelling arguments from both sides.

Let's just get shot of them. Risk it for the biscuit.

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 06:44 PM
Would the bbc, itv or sky pay to send cameras and employ pundits for SPL football without them, I'm not sure. We might get the goals on TV but that's just about all and it would be from feeds like HTV. I really cannot see the Glasgow or London based media, TV or radio being interested in an SPL without the old firm. What would be in it for them?

But the reason they get so much coverage is because of their success in the SPL and CL... Not simply because they are the OF.

If they were to leave...

It wouldnt take very long for other Scottish teams to dominate.

I don't see why other Scottish teams dominating wouldn't pick up as much coverage... because they would be acheiving what Celtic and Rangers have done....

Top of the table finishes and CL qualifying.

Sure... they wouldn't be doing as well in the CL to begin with... but that would improve over time.

If the OF were to leave, I can see more money floating around the SPL over the long term.

clerriehibs
10-10-2009, 06:47 PM
Hardly...

The OF get so much media coverage because they are the top 2 sides in the SPL.

When the OF p!ss off.... it would only be a matter of time before a couple of other teams in the league would start dominating (Hibs being a massive contender)

Who's to say that 2 new teams dominating the league wouldnt get the same media coverage as Celtic and Rangers do right now?

IMO... It would only be a matter of time before Hibs and other clubs support bases increase.

When this happens, the clubs will be bringing in more money through the gates, teams will get money for qualifying for the CL and the Uefa Cup... and because of this... support for these clubs would increase even more.... which would then grab even more media attention... etc...

We don't need Celtic or Rangers in the SPL. :bye:

Do you seriously think the media would give the SPL (if it was still called that after rantic leave) any more column inches than the Scottish 1st division gets? There would be hardly anything in the so-called Scottish national dailies. You'd get Hibs/Hearts in the EEN, as you currently get. If rantic went to England, the Herald, the Scotsman, the red-tops ... they would ALL fill their sports pages with Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal ... and rantic, because that's who the sports editors would think the majority of their readers would want to read about. They currently think all their readers are obsessed with rantic, so why would that change? The English teams would be the rantic opposition, the English teams would be the ones reported on. The SPL would be relegated to a page of reports at most.

whiskyhibby
10-10-2009, 06:52 PM
While we are at it ..................How about Northern Ireland annexing Glasgow and the surrounding West coast area, then we can really get rid of the Sectarian Bigot Brothers for good...................

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:

Removed
10-10-2009, 06:54 PM
But the reason they get so much coverage is because of their success in the SPL and CL... Not simply because they are the OF.

If they were to leave...

It wouldnt take very long for other Scottish teams to dominate.

I don't see why other Scottish teams dominating wouldn't pick up as much coverage... because they would be acheiving what Celtic and Rangers have done....

Top of the table finishes and CL qualifying.

Sure... they wouldn't be doing as well in the CL to begin with... but that would improve over time.

If the OF were to leave, I can see more money floating around the SPL over the long term.

Now I really do disagree. They do get the coverage because they are the old firm. As Clerrie says the media would pick up on the EPL and every Saturday they would be reporting English games not a 2nd rate SPL.

It wouldn't bother me though as I'd be at the games so who cares about the radio or TV. Nothing would change as Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, D Utd etc currently only get a fraction of airplay that they get. I think that our league would be more exciting but financially poorer.

Teuchter Hibbie
10-10-2009, 06:58 PM
lets be honest - they havent been invited/accpeted in the EPL/Championship etc so clearly will not be going anywhere yet again.:grr:

Woody1985
10-10-2009, 06:58 PM
As it stands...

The OF are having a hard enough time in the SPL.

I can't see them being that successful in the EPL.

If they go to the EPL... I can't seem them qualifying for the CL for many many years (if ever).... thats when their glory hunting followers will be found out for what they are.

Their support will drop fairly rapidly.... and because of this... they will find it even more difficult to maintain a place in the top half.

Surely it would take another generation or two to see this effect though. The current youngsters will still be supporting them and will probably have an influence on their kids, as I'm sure alot of our families have.

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 06:58 PM
Do you seriously think the media would give the SPL (if it was still called that after rantic leave) any more column inches than the Scottish 1st division gets? There would be hardly anything in the so-called Scottish national dailies. You'd get Hibs/Hearts in the EEN, as you currently get. If rantic went to England, the Herald, the Scotsman, the red-tops ... they would ALL fill their sports pages with Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal ... and rantic, because that's who the sports editors would think the majority of their readers would want to read about. They currently think all their readers are obsessed with rantic, so why would that change? The English teams would be the rantic opposition, the English teams would be the ones reported on. The SPL would be relegated to a page of reports at most.

But how long do you think the media's grip on the old firm is going to last when they are acheiving virtually nothing every season?

No more League Cup wins.
No more Champions League
No Uefa Cup Qualifying
No more league dominance

Do you think the media would still give a toss about them?

Where as... in the SPL...

New teams will be challenging... not for 3rd, 4th or 5th..... but for TOP!

Imagine Hibs challenging for the top of the league and having a realistic chance of gaining entry into the CL... while the OF become small fish in a huge pond...

It wouldnt take long for us to pick up media interest IMO.

More success = bigger fan base
Bigger fan base = more media coverage

I don't see why it wouldnt work out that way.

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 07:03 PM
Surely it would take another generation or two to see this effect though. The current youngsters will still be supporting them and will probably have an influence on their kids, as I'm sure alot of our families have.

Yes... it would take some time.

But I dont think it would take as long as some people think it would.

If the OF leave.... it would take a while for it to take effect.

But look at it this way...

If they don't leave.... It will never happen.

3rd place would be all we could ever hope for.... and thats not good enough IMO.

CB_NO3
10-10-2009, 07:10 PM
We would not get a CL spot, we would have to play a qualifier, without Rangers and Celtic our co-efficient would drop as know one in Scotland can win a game in Europe outside the Old Firm. We would end up like the Irish league or Finnish league and would have to play a qualifier every season, which means you will never see a Scottish team in the CL again.

Removed
10-10-2009, 07:14 PM
But how long do you think the media's grip on the old firm is going to last when they are acheiving virtually nothing every season?

No more League Cup wins.
No more Champions League
No Uefa Cup Qualifying
No more league dominance

Do you think the media would still give a toss about them?

Where as... in the SPL...

New teams will be challenging... not for 3rd, 4th or 5th..... but for TOP!

Imagine Hibs challenging for the top of the league and having a realistic chance of gaining entry into the CL... while the OF become small fish in a huge pond...

It wouldnt take long for us to pick up media interest IMO.

More success = bigger fan base
Bigger fan base = more media coverage

I don't see why it wouldnt work out that way.

The media would give a toss because they would be playing the big English teams every week. Hibs v Hearts pah who cares, apart from Hibs & Hearts fans.

I like your arguements, I really do but I can see no evidence that that they are realistic. Scottish football would be 2nd rate but an expanded SPL including the top 1st Division teams would excite me and I think that average gates would rise but that would not correlate with any media interest imo

Teuchter Hibbie
10-10-2009, 07:19 PM
The media would give a toss because they would be playing the big English teams every week. Hibs v Hearts pah who cares, apart from Hibs & Hearts fans.

I like your arguements, I really do but I can see no evidence that that they are realistic. Scottish football would be 2nd rate but an expanded SPL including the top 1st Division teams would excite me and I think that average gates would rise but that would not correlate with any media interest imo


i agree - plus hibs/hearts would soon become big fish in a small pond possibly sparking another OF scenario :confused:

Beefster
10-10-2009, 07:42 PM
As it stands...

The OF are having a hard enough time in the SPL.

I can't see them being that successful in the EPL.

If they go to the EPL... I can't seem them qualifying for the CL for many many years (if ever).... thats when their glory hunting followers will be found out for what they are.

Their support will drop fairly rapidly.... and because of this... they will find it even more difficult to maintain a place in the top half.

The Old Firm's revenue in the EPL would rocket (TV, sponsors) so they would afford and attract a far, far, better class of player. They'd also become hugely attractive to a very rich benefactor.

Their matchday income would become chicken-feed compared to what they'd take in from other sources.

Broken Gnome
10-10-2009, 07:51 PM
To raise one the OP's points that seems to have been bypassed....

Would Liam Miller and Anthony Stokes a) have signed for Hibs or b) been able to sign for Hibs...

if the OF didn't play in the SPL?

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 08:25 PM
The Old Firm's revenue in the EPL would rocket (TV, sponsors) so they would afford and attract a far, far, better class of player. They'd also become hugely attractive to a very rich benefactor.

Their matchday income would become chicken-feed compared to what they'd take in from other sources.

Yes.... im not denying that they would.

I know that they would attract a better class of players.... but compared to other EPL teams... their is no way they'd be competing in the top 6.

Celtic and Rangers arent just going to jump into the league and start competing in the top 6.

It would take Celtic and Rangers a long time to get up there... and by the time that they do (if they do).... their overall fanbase would be considerably lower.

Hibercelona
10-10-2009, 08:29 PM
To raise one the OP's points that seems to have been bypassed....

Would Liam Miller and Anthony Stokes a) have signed for Hibs or b) been able to sign for Hibs...

if the OF didn't play in the SPL?

When Liam Miller left his last club, he had be accused by his clubs manager of having an attitude problem... so I imagine that possibly put other teams off signing him.

Anthony Stokes signed for Hibs.... because I believe he was injured during the transfer window? :confused:

I don't think the OF had anything to do with these 2 players coming to Hibs.

Broken Gnome
10-10-2009, 08:36 PM
When Liam Miller left his last club, he had be accused by his clubs manager of having an attitude problem... so I imagine that possibly put other teams off signing him.

Anthony Stokes signed for Hibs.... because I believe he was injured during the transfer window? :confused:

I don't think the OF had anything to do with these 2 players coming to Hibs.

Hibs are a better prospect for a move with the Old Firm here, I'd reckon that's maybe even a bigger draw than any one of us realise. As for whether Hibs would have the finance for such moves without them... open to conjecture of course.

PapillonVert
10-10-2009, 08:47 PM
Just to make a point or two about the Ugly Sisters going:

1. Note how they are now saying it would be good for the rest of the SPL if they went! Oh yeah? It would be good for the SPL if they allowed some competition!

2. That being said, I have always said that if they want to play "in England", then "in England" should mean precisely that, "in England".

3. They seem to think that they can run some "B" team in the SPL (presumably to cover themselves and give themselves "European nights" and income whilst they strive to make it in England).

4. That is incompatible in my view with Lawell saying their going would be good for the SPL.

5. Therefore, if they go they go, a 100% break, no B team left to mess things up.

6. I doubt the English will ever want them. Especially the plastic Paddies spouting IRA songs - how well will that go down in , e.g. Manchester?

7. Having said that, if Sky or any other we're-putting-up-the-money-and-so-we're-calling-the-shots outfit wants them, they won't give a damn what anyone thinks and will get them.

8. In the end ofthe day, we will all still support Hibs.

thefamousfive
10-10-2009, 09:04 PM
I agree with most of the posts so far - its a bit of a circular argument as its really unknown territory and a big gamble to break away from scottish footballs status quo. Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd will accept the divorce of the Old Firm from Scotland as we have reached a glass ceiling in terms of the growth of our clubs that are repressed by the financial and political muscle that Rangers and Celtic have. Of course recently we have seen Rangers looking very vunerable on both counts and potential to see them having a very average season. Potentially this gives a chance for one the aforementioned club closing what has always been labelled a gulf in class by the media. So, Old firm leave....Media will still be focused on their new adventures but as we know the media is fickle. You cant honestly think that a profit making organisation such as a national newspaper can ignore readers. The media coverage will still be the same i.e a special SPL 'pullout'. However I think everything will change after a few seasons. We need to start from scratch as it were and start a fresh taking financial loss and moving forward without a glass ceiling. We will vote with our feet and eventually the product will be competitive and marketable. We will have a hard few years but we will survive (eventually).

HibbiesandtheBaddies
10-10-2009, 10:21 PM
What do the OF bring financially to the SPL? In Pounds and Pence.

Away support and their undoubted TV pull? What is that figure for each club individually?

VegasHibby
10-10-2009, 10:38 PM
I dont understand why people on this board would want to get rid of the old firm. The SPL would not get a TV deal so you could kiss goodbye to the 60 million we recieved from SKY so teams like Hibs and Hearts etc would be operating with a 200k a year kitty meaning we would have vauxhall conference type players playing in the league. You would not see players like Stokes, Zemmama and Miller etc at ER with the wages we could offer. We would drop so far down in the euro co-efficiant that we would get one Champions League spot but we would have to play about 3 or 4 qualifying rounds meaning you would probably not see a Scottish team in the Champions League ever again. It would also be cringe worthy winning the league or cup without the Old Firm. I would rather finish 2nd in the spl with them in it.

As for their sectarian pi55, let them sing their songs, I dont take any offence to it, it does not bother me in anyway and am sure it doesn't bother anyone on this board but some people will still fell the need to moan about it after a game against the Old Firm.

Anyway I want them to stay and suffer in the SPL and suffer in Europe, they are in decline (there was still tickets for last weeks game available in the Huns end). They cant afford to pay big wages meaning they are signing **** players aka Broadfoot, Fox and so on. I think we will benifit in the long run because we have nothing to loose, lets face it we have been pi55 for 30 years now.


I tend to agree with most things you say. I think it's naive to suggest football in Scotland would be in a better situation without the OF.
I do think it's tedious that Rantic dominate everything in Scotland. But that's just a reality. They are a huge part of Scottish football history and for us to win the league without them wouldn't be much of an achievment.
Wouldn't the OF suffer more in the EPL ? They could compete in the top 10 clubs but would find it difficult to qualify for Champions league and UEFA cups etc where most of the money is

Sir David Gray
10-10-2009, 10:41 PM
What do the OF bring financially to the SPL? In Pounds and Pence.

Away support and their undoubted TV pull? What is that figure for each club individually?

I'm sure I read Stephen Thompson saying the other day that three visits a season to Tannadice by the OF brings in around £450,000 a season to Dundee Utd.

woody47
10-10-2009, 10:52 PM
The thing to look at here is just how much money do we really get from TV right now and how many fans do not go to games because the game is on TV.

Personally I do not think there is a great difference between the two so lets say we have no live games at all - only highlights.

From what I read a while back we were given £50k for screening a game. So in real terms that is only putting an extra 2000 bums on seats for one game.

If we had no Sunday, Monday night or Saturday lunch time games and just played every game at 3 on a saturday everyone would be able to plan their saturdays for months in advance. Reckon this would increase the gate AND not just for the one game as we would be possibly challenging for a real chance of the league.

Therefore at the end of the day the OF can GTF as we would not need them.

AFKA5814_Hibs
10-10-2009, 10:55 PM
Positives - Non OF representation in both the Champions League Qualifers and Europa League. More competitive league. No more sectarian singing. Hibs might just win the Scottish Cup. :hmmm:

Negatives - Less Media Exposure.

Is that about it? :dunno:

Expecting Rain
10-10-2009, 10:59 PM
The Old Firm are not the be all and end all, guys like Wotherspoon will have more chance to further their careers, in fact Hibs are the perfect example of giving players a platform on which to express their talents, that move to the premiership will still exist without the detour via Ibrox and Celtic Park.
The majority of Celtic and Rangers fans support them from their armchairs and locals, the minute they start getting humped by teams down south and failing to make europe their season ticket holders will be heading towards Asdas and the golf courses, bring it on.

Dr What If?
10-10-2009, 11:04 PM
Is the SPL there to service the OF? I would like to think not. They are simply two members of the league. Granted, they are the two most sucessful members on all counts but they are still just two clubs amongst many.
If they leave other teams will win the honours and take the financial rewards. That however, is unlikely. They are in Scotland and their is no president for what they are planning. Yes I know about Welsh teams but only because a professional Welsh league is a relitively new invention.
If they are so serious, surely they should prove it and move their stadia to England, then there will be nothing to stop them. They have generic names so no renaming needed.
If they want to play in England, they should be English teams.

Jack
10-10-2009, 11:04 PM
At the end of the day is any amount of money worth the bile and hatred they spread around Scotland?

Form me its no.

Scottish football may or may not be better off without them financially but it would survive and it would be a better place to be.

HibbiesandtheBaddies
10-10-2009, 11:21 PM
I'm sure I read Stephen Thompson saying the other day that three visits a season to Tannadice by the OF brings in around £450,000 a season to Dundee Utd.

£450,000 from away support attendance and TV cash?

Thats the magic figure, ditch the cancer and generate £5m throughout the SPL.

Is this possible?

Woody1985
11-10-2009, 11:55 AM
Yes... it would take some time.

But I dont think it would take as long as some people think it would.

If the OF leave.... it would take a while for it to take effect.

But look at it this way...

If they don't leave.... It will never happen.

3rd place would be all we could ever hope for.... and thats not good enough IMO.

During the interim period, from when the OF leave to the potential fans supporting the remaining SPL teams, the league could be dead on it's feet and therefore be of no interest to the potential new fans.

As has been stated, alot of the 'supporters' of these clubs are so because of their religious leanings, I can't see that changing much TBH.

3rd place is all we can hope for at the moment. Who's to say that in the same period it might take for us to build up an improved league with teams trying to qualify for the CL that we couldn't be challenging anyway. The recovery from them leaving could take 10/20 years, if at all. In that same time it will be depressing them winning the league but at least if success does come we'll have stuck it to them.

One of the contentious issues would be that if they left would their co-efficent points be removed or at least a percentage of them. The first season they leave wouldn't mean the 3rd place team would be in the CL.

Even if auto CL qualification did happen, the first team to achieve that qualification would probably dominate the league to come for years after. One team in the SPL now taking in £8/9/10 million quid would surely qualify the next year.

I read today that the NI league gets £80,000 a year in sponsorship money. We could expect more than that outwith the OF but it wouldn't be massive.

PeeJay
11-10-2009, 12:11 PM
I dont understand why people on this board would want to get rid of the old firm.

I started a post on this the other day saying "We", i.e. the other clubs should get rid of the OF because "they" the OF, are clearly bringing the game into disrepute by wanting to move down to the EPL, claiming that the SPL is not of any value to them.

a) You might have missed out on this for some reason but the OF have clearly stated that they want out of the SPL - it's never been the other way around!
b) I just suggested turning the tables on them - seemed pretty fair to me, why should we just sit patiently back and wait for them to do the dirty deed?

It's all down to context - your post would seem to suggest people (myself included) want to get rid of the OF for no good reason: when all the reasons are out in the open air? I'd like to see them punished by any means possible, if only the other clubs had the backbone to do something about it!

Woody1985
11-10-2009, 12:31 PM
I started a post on this the other day saying "We", i.e. the other clubs should get rid of the OF because "they" the OF, are clearly bringing the game into disrepute by wanting to move down to the EPL, claiming that the SPL is not of any value to them.

a) You might have missed out on this for some reason but the OF have clearly stated that they want out of the SPL - it's never been the other way around!
b) I just suggested turning the tables on them - seemed pretty fair to me, why should we just sit patiently back and wait for them to do the dirty deed?

It's all down to context - your post would seem to suggest people (myself included) want to get rid of the OF for no good reason: when all the reasons are out in the open air? I'd like to see them punished by any means possible, if only the other clubs had the backbone to do something about it!

Someone posted the SFA rules and that they can be punished for this. Can the clubs get together to try and invoke some kind of punishment by the enforcement of this rule?

ScottB
11-10-2009, 01:09 PM
If the OF leave, yes the TV money as a whole package would go down, but since they both get the biggest share, thats hardly a disaster is it.

The interesting thing to consider is that after they go, we will still have a couple of years before our coefficient sufficently changes, meaning whoever wins the first non Old Firm SPL title could easily find themselves in the CL Group Stages, rake in enough money to ensure their own dominance of the league for years to come. This point is often ignored, yes we should have a much more competitive league, but it could easily be sown up in this way because of the reduced incomes involved.

I think things would be better long term, we would get bigger gates because we were actually fighting for something every year.

snooky
11-10-2009, 01:11 PM
The main issue in the whole argument is, how FIFA propose to deal with Scottish CL places. Will we have one or none? Will the EPL get our current two allocations?

One solution could be to create a British Premier League & Championship League.
The lower leagues in all home countries would play in region leagues and the winners in each go into play-offs for places in say two British Leagues. The main problem would be when teams drop out the league, all relegated teams could possibly be from the same region thus creating lopsided lower leagues.

No matter what change is proposed here's the crux of the matter, why would English clubs want ANY of our teams in their League? What's in it for them?
Aye, SFA! (excuse the pun). :cool2:

Woody1985
11-10-2009, 01:13 PM
If the OF leave, yes the TV money as a whole package would go down, but since they both get the biggest share, thats hardly a disaster is it.

The interesting thing to consider is that after they go, we will still have a couple of years before our coefficient sufficently changes, meaning whoever wins the first non Old Firm SPL title could easily find themselves in the CL Group Stages, rake in enough money to ensure their own dominance of the league for years to come. This point is often ignored, yes we should have a much more competitive league, but it could easily be sown up in this way because of the reduced incomes involved.

I've raised this issue above. I don't think UEFA would allow us to keep our existing co-efficient points given that the teams who accumulated most of them have left. I reckon we'd probably get an agreed knocked down amount of 50/60% which would probably mean we'd be no where.

PeeJay
11-10-2009, 01:45 PM
Someone posted the SFA rules and that they can be punished for this. Can the clubs get together to try and invoke some kind of punishment by the enforcement of this rule?

I read the SPL rules and they state bringing the game into disrepute can lead to exclusion. Personally I'd send them down to Division 3, but ...
I think the second part of your question is the problem. The clubs could and the SPL bosses could, but I'm not so sure that the will is there to do so. I don't really understand why their (OF) comments are always just accepted each time without any talk of exclusion or punishment ... funny that?

Woody1985
11-10-2009, 01:48 PM
I read the SPL rules and they state bringing the game into disrepute can lead to exclusion. Personally I'd send them down to Division 3, but ...
I think the second part of your question is the problem. The clubs could and the SPL bosses could, but I'm not so sure that the will is there to do so. I don't really understand why their (OF) comments are always just accepted each time without any talk of exclusion or punishment ... funny that?

Do you think that they are too scared to lose the OF and their revenue streams or do you think that they'd be looking to piggy back on and create a British league?

Andy74
12-10-2009, 10:13 AM
To raise one the OP's points that seems to have been bypassed....

Would Liam Miller and Anthony Stokes a) have signed for Hibs or b) been able to sign for Hibs...

if the OF didn't play in the SPL?

Why not?

They aren't playing for the OF, they are playing for Hibs where the best they can hope for is third place.

They are playing for Hibs because they currently haven't made it or aren't wanted by teams that are in better leagues.

What are their other options if we played in a non OF league? Same as they are now - they could go to the championship or us only in the new league they could actually be winning it and playing in Europe regularly.

Another aspect is could we afford them in a non Of league, TV deal money may be down. Well, surely in a competitive league that would be compensated by additional gate revenue. We'd be in final stages of leagues and cups far more regularly and I'm pretty sure a Hibs v Hearts or Aberdeen or Dundee Utd league decider would be a sell out.

paxtonhibby
12-10-2009, 10:59 AM
We, as a club,have never been in a better position to make a long term sustained challenge to them.Im not saying we can win the league but trying for 2nd has to surely be within our grasp in the medium term.Winning anything without the uglies IMO wont be the same.
If we can consistently challenge it might make them think twice about legging it.

hibs0666
12-10-2009, 11:04 AM
I don't think it's a question of if the structure of football changes, it's when.

Scottish football therefore needs to understand how the structure of professional football is going to evolve, decide where it wants to be in ten years time, and start planning for it now.

TheEastTerrace
12-10-2009, 11:09 AM
This may seem like stating the bleeding obvious, but the proof would be in the eating of the pudding and we cannot make firm assertions about what would happen to (a) the SPL clubs and (b) the Old Firm until it happens.

From a purist's point of view, I can see why the OF should leave the SPL and therefore generate more sporting competition and increase competitive balance in the league.

However, this view is strongly countered IMO by the loss of TV revenue, matchday income that games against the OF brings and sponsorship/advertising/media revenues that I fear would happen once the OF leace. SPL clubs would find it extemely difficult to fund the player transfer fees and wages to attract the standard of player currently plying their trade or invest in the youth development structures to nurture talented players (Hibs to their credit have a good setup). Bear also in mind, this is at a time when the general standard of football is widely recognised to be very poor value and the national team are currently experiencing non-qualification for the last 6 major international tournaments (inc WC 2010). For the sake of the uglies not being here, would we be willing to risk the above?

As a few posters have pointed out, if they do leave it should be a complete break from the SPL i.e. no 'B' team representation in the SPL and that if they do decide to leave for the EPL, as far as I'm concerned they have left the SPL for good. If Rangers and Celtic do join the EPL, it could well have ramifications in Europe and possibly in a global context if UEFA/FIFA approve the movement of two teams from one member FA to another. Who's to say that the likes of Ajax and PSV won't lobby for entry to the Bundesliga or Porto and Benfica to join La Liga, if the OF are successful? After all, they are in a similar position to the OF; they have outgrown the competition in their own national leagues and want to join a league more lucrative and geographically close to their current base.

I personally feel that we'll see a European League before we ever see the OF join the EPL or EPL2 or whatever they want to call it, and the OF will have a much better chance of joining that.

Either way, I just wish they would make a decision on this once and for all.

Joe Baker II
12-10-2009, 04:19 PM
. No more sectarian singing.



Without starting again debate about what songs are sectarian as such, I do not see what difference this will make. OF are not the only clubs fingered in these regular accusations and they will still be in Scotland even if they desert Scottish League.

lEXO
12-10-2009, 04:56 PM
I,ve been thinking about this a bit more.I dont give a ****** if they stay or go.I buy my season ticket to watch Hibs and whoever they play.I done the same when we were in the first division when i managed to enjoy the season without them.It,s about the Hibs for me, so ****** them and their support.

paxtonhibby
12-10-2009, 05:22 PM
I,ve been thinking about this a bit more.I dont give a ****** if they stay or go.I buy my season ticket to watch Hibs and whoever they play.I done the same when we were in the first division when i managed to enjoy the season without them.It,s about the Hibs for me, so ****** them and their support.

Yes but dont you think any success without them will be a little hollow,thats my concern.

Fife-Hibee
12-10-2009, 05:31 PM
Yes but dont you think any success without them will be a little hollow,thats my concern.

What success do we have with them here ? OFGTF

paxtonhibby
12-10-2009, 05:45 PM
What success do we have with them here ? OFGTF

But ,as I previously stated,we are in an excellent position to begin to challenge them

basehibby
12-10-2009, 06:02 PM
I,ve been thinking about this a bit more.I dont give a ****** if they stay or go.I buy my season ticket to watch Hibs and whoever they play.I done the same when we were in the first division when i managed to enjoy the season without them.It,s about the Hibs for me, so ****** them and their support.

:top marksHere Here! (but if they go they go completely - no half measures :grr:)

lEXO
12-10-2009, 06:06 PM
Yes but dont you think any success without them will be a little hollow,thats my concern.
If winning the league beating the yams,aberdeen,utd, dundee etc is hollow to you i find that quite sad.I remember being at Falkirk when we were in the first division winning 2-1 and the reaction of the players and fans at full time.We did,nt win the league that day, but put our nearest rivals out the race.Nothing hollow in that day.And lets face it i cannae remember feeling to hollow when we humped Killie 5-1 at Hampden either.

CB_NO3
12-10-2009, 06:12 PM
What success do we have with them here ? OFGTF

That is surely our fault for not being ambitious and being piss for 30 years.

paxtonhibby
12-10-2009, 06:19 PM
If winning the league beating the yams,aberdeen,utd, dundee etc is hollow to you i find that quite sad.I remember being at Falkirk when we were in the first division winning 2-1 and the reaction of the players and fans at full time.We did,nt win the league that day, but put our nearest rivals out the race.Nothing hollow in that day.And lets face it i cannae remember feeling to hollow when we humped Killie 5-1 at Hampden either.

You can find it all you want,being best in Scotland includes the uglies.In answer to your last comment,as far as I remember "they" were competing in the CIS in 2007 so a little pedantic there maybe?

lEXO
12-10-2009, 06:25 PM
That is surely our fault for not being ambitious and being piss for 30 years.
Or the fact most of our best players have wanted to leave and join the OF.****** them if they stay, and **** them if they go.We have survived a long time and will survive without them.Maybe the rest of us might prosper without them.I dont fear them going,but dont fear them staying either.I have equal contempt for them, their support, their boards and their smugness when doing well.
Remember the huns wae nine in a row?Celtic under jock stein and Martin Oneill.I remember them in the late 70,s and 80,s.Were,nt so smug then eh.Thats why i dont care what they do.It,s about the Hibs for me.Always has,always will.

lEXO
12-10-2009, 06:32 PM
You can find it all you want,being best in Scotland includes the uglies.In answer to your last comment,as far as I remember "they" were competing in the CIS in 2007 so a little pedantic there maybe?
Not if their not here it is,nt.And your missing the point by the cis win against Killie.If this makes me pedantic,great, better that than a doom and gloom merchant that needs the uglies as you call them to enjoy victory.I enjoy all Hibs victories,some more than others but as said previously, i dont care if the stay or go.

paxtonhibby
12-10-2009, 06:58 PM
Not if their not here it is,nt.And your missing the point by the cis win against Killie.If this makes me pedantic,great, better that than a doom and gloom merchant that needs the uglies as you call them to enjoy victory.I enjoy all Hibs victories,some more than others but as said previously, i dont care if the stay or go.

I enjoy all Hibs victories aswell,doesnt have to be the of we are playing.Not a d&g'er by the way I just think we are in a great position to make a serious challenge.Optimism merchant,aye,that'll do.

hibbiedon
13-10-2009, 07:37 AM
When the Old Firm are playing in, arguably, the greatest league in the world and likely being relatively successful, why would our support base increase in any meaningful way?


Most of their fans are glory hunters, how many will follow follow without the cups etc.
if teams like liverpool, man utd are in massive debt due to the high wages then wee teams like rantic will struggle, the wages they would have to pay would cripple them even with the EPL money. season tickets would go through the roof, far too dear for wee jimmy on incapacity benefit. At the moment they moan about the cost of travel to inverness London is a lot further.
If teams like Hibs are challenging for the league & cup then attendances go up, that is a fact. [ 1st division proves that ] if attendances are up that makes sponsorship more attractive, if there are 5 or 6 main contenders for trophies that makes it more exciting to the media.

GreenOnions
13-10-2009, 10:55 AM
Slightly different slant but: I think it's generally accepted on here that, if the OF left, there would be an immediate drop in income for all remaining clubs (notwithstanding any "compensation payment" from the OF).

The last thing that any business would want when there is a significant drop in income is to be in a position where they have large amounts of debt accrued when incomes were higher and/or have outdated infrastructure/facilities that they will not be able to replace once income drops.

I would think that those clubs with low debt and modern infrastructure would be in a hugely superior position should the OF leave.

Implications here for decisions on a new East Stand?

Andy74
13-10-2009, 11:28 AM
Slightly different slant but: I think it's generally accepted on here that, if the OF left, there would be an immediate drop in income for all remaining clubs (notwithstanding any "compensation payment" from the OF).

The last thing that any business would want when there is a significant drop in income is to be in a position where they have large amounts of debt accrued when incomes were higher and/or have outdated infrastructure/facilities that they will not be able to replace once income drops.

I would think that those clubs with low debt and modern infrastructure would be in a hugely superior position should the OF leave.

Implications here for decisions on a new East Stand?

I don't think the drop in income is a given at all, certainly not for the bigger clubs. We'd miss a bit of TV revenue and maybe some sponsorhip but we would also surely gain from increased attendance and a number of days out at the latter stages of cup competitions as we would regularly be competing for things.

I don't honestly see the difference it makes in recruting talent and such like as the position will be much about the same. In Scotland the OF will be the big teams and they will always have an eye on talent from just below them in the same country so kids or players with an eye on joining the OF from us will still be able to do that if they like. We just have the added advantage that we do not compete directly with them so weakening us won't be in their thoughts and the players can think of actually winning things.

I doubt we are thinking of it for the East, more as has already been said, the price and the current financial climate means that the time is not quite right.

Franck is God
13-10-2009, 11:48 AM
To raise one the OP's points that seems to have been bypassed....

Would Liam Miller and Anthony Stokes a) have signed for Hibs or b) been able to sign for Hibs...

if the OF didn't play in the SPL?

We managed to sign Russel Latapy and Franck Sauze when we were playing in the first division in front of a full ER every week, pretty sure we didn't play either side of the In Firm that year.....

If they move on and I hope they do we will have one of the most competetive leagues in Europe where realistically every team in the league has a chance of winning it. Eventually clubs like Hibs, Hearts & Aberdeen will float to the top end simply because we have got the biggest fan bases outside Glasgow and could probably afford a level of consistancy that other teams wouldn't. You could imagine any side having a good season and actually making it all the way through the season with their squad intact and none of their players heads being turned by the In Firm media assiociation offering deals through the press....

We may also have a better chance of keeping our best youngsters a bit longer as we'll no longer have the two biggest teams poaching them, the best of them will still end up in Engand at some level but only when they've actually reached their potential and are ready to go.

Hibs On Tour
13-10-2009, 12:01 PM
Positives - Non OF representation in both the Champions League Qualifers and Europa League. More competitive league. No more sectarian singing. Hibs might just win the Scottish Cup. :hmmm:

Negatives - Less Media Exposure.

Is that about it? :dunno:

Sorry P, can't agree.

Non-OF representation would be entirely dependant on how well both the OF did before they left and how well any replacements did in the immediate years afterwards. Have a look at how 'well' Scottish teams did and convince me we'd keep the same number of places in the short term. We wouldn't.

More competitive league? Hibs winning the Scottish Cup? If we just keep binning the other teams who win it until we do, it completely devalues it IMHO. Makes the victory hollow and pointless.

Think the pair of them are completely kidding themselves however - never gonna happen IMHO.

hibs1875aye
13-10-2009, 12:22 PM
We managed to sign Russel Latapy and Franck Sauze when we were playing in the first division in front of a full ER every week, pretty sure we didn't play either side of the In Firm that year.....

If they move on and I hope they do we will have one of the most competetive leagues in Europe where realistically every team in the league has a chance of winning it. Eventually clubs like Hibs, Hearts & Aberdeen will float to the top end simply because we have got the biggest fan bases outside Glasgow and could probably afford a level of consistancy that other teams wouldn't. You could imagine any side having a good season and actually making it all the way through the season with their squad intact and none of their players heads being turned by the In Firm media assiociation offering deals through the press....

We may also have a better chance of keeping our best youngsters a bit longer as we'll no longer have the two biggest teams poaching them, the best of them will still end up in Engand at some level but only when they've actually reached their potential and are ready to go.

Good post - mirrors my thoughts.

As it stands our only chance of winning anything realistically is a cup. For some bloody reason God has decided the Scottish Cup isn't good enough for Easter Road thus only leaving the League Cup. Its not bad, but the League is the thing every team aspires to, then the Scottish Cup and the League Cup.

Without the old firm, we would have a chance (slim I grant you but possible) of winning 1, 2 or 3 things in one season! As it stands right now, we're lucky to win 1 thing every bloody DECADE!

Andy74
13-10-2009, 12:30 PM
Sorry P, can't agree.

Non-OF representation would be entirely dependant on how well both the OF did before they left and how well any replacements did in the immediate years afterwards. Have a look at how 'well' Scottish teams did and convince me we'd keep the same number of places in the short term. We wouldn't.

More competitive league? Hibs winning the Scottish Cup? If we just keep binning the other teams who win it until we do, it completely devalues it IMHO. Makes the victory hollow and pointless.

Think the pair of them are completely kidding themselves however - never gonna happen IMHO.

The other two are disproportionately big though. Removing them does bring back real competition.

It doesn't mean we will win things - how often have we finished 3rd?

How consistent has 3rd place been over the years?

The difference beween the other teams is not so great and could never really have the potential to go the same way as the OF no matter how much any team wins.

Surely it's better than just accepting that we will be third at best? Anyone thinking the gap is getting smaller are kidding themsleves. They now have budgets over ten times ours and that will always win out over the course.

GreenOnions
13-10-2009, 12:44 PM
I don't think the drop in income is a given at all, certainly not for the bigger clubs. We'd miss a bit of TV revenue and maybe some sponsorhip but we would also surely gain from increased attendance and a number of days out at the latter stages of cup competitions as we would regularly be competing for things.

I don't honestly see the difference it makes in recruting talent and such like as the position will be much about the same. In Scotland the OF will be the big teams and they will always have an eye on talent from just below them in the same country so kids or players with an eye on joining the OF from us will still be able to do that if they like. We just have the added advantage that we do not compete directly with them so weakening us won't be in their thoughts and the players can think of actually winning things.

I doubt we are thinking of it for the East, more as has already been said, the price and the current financial climate means that the time is not quite right.

Fair points Andy. It's impossible to say really. There may also be a big difference between short term effects and long term effects.

It also seems to me that more and more youngsters have looser affiliations to clubs and that they are tending to look more to successful foreign teams such as Man U and Barcelona as the teams they "follow" (on TV). Don't know exactly how pronounced this is or whether it might continue.

Joe Baker II
13-10-2009, 01:12 PM
Yes but dont you think any success without them will be a little hollow,thats my concern.

Think you are understating, think a lot of people would lose interest as winning anything less meaningful without beating teams who are normally favourites.

Someone mentioned Sauzee earlier - should note that he said that playing against Rangers and Celtic was big attraction in coming to Scotland (know that it not what the more rabid OF-haters want to hear).

basehibby
13-10-2009, 01:46 PM
Yes but dont you think any success without them will be a little hollow,thats my concern.

I don't think that argument holds any water at all - the OF have for many many years been sharing most of the baubles between them with the opposition including only ONE side of EQUIVALENT stature and NONE, ZERO, NADE sides at any time markedly superior in terms of support or financial muscle.
Ask the throngs of OF followers from accross Scotland and further afield if that left them with a hollow feeling!
Of course they're chasing the money now - but that's all. They're still trying desparately to make a case for themselves to have their cake and eat it by competing in the Scottish Cup or other such nonsense which should be thrown out of court - do you think they're trying that one on cos it will leave them with a hollow feeling??? Of course not - they're doing it to give them a decent shot at winning something and getting to Europe every season - precisely to stop their support from getting that hollow feeling that's been a regular close-season companion for the followers of other teams for most of their history.

paxtonhibby
13-10-2009, 05:53 PM
I don't think that argument holds any water at all - the OF have for many many years been sharing most of the baubles between them with the opposition including only ONE side of EQUIVALENT stature and NONE, ZERO, NADE sides at any time markedly superior in terms of support or financial muscle.
Ask the throngs of OF followers from accross Scotland and further afield if that left them with a hollow feeling!
Of course they're chasing the money now - but that's all. They're still trying desparately to make a case for themselves to have their cake and eat it by competing in the Scottish Cup or other such nonsense which should be thrown out of court - do you think they're trying that one on cos it will leave them with a hollow feeling??? Of course not - they're doing it to give them a decent shot at winning something and getting to Europe every season - precisely to stop their support from getting that hollow feeling that's been a regular close-season companion for the followers of other teams for most of their history.
Think your missing my point.We have a chance of competing with them(low debt,improving squad,attractive football,excellent facilities,etc).How much satisfaction would it give if we could split them.Dont see the relevance of your last point re the Scottish Cup but if they did go and get a place with a so called 2nd team thats the day I turn my back on the game.

Phil MaGlass
16-10-2009, 11:42 AM
I'm sure I read Stephen Thompson saying the other day that three visits a season to Tannadice by the OF brings in around £450,000 a season to Dundee Utd.


Aye it mibbe brings in around 450,000 but how much would it be compared to another premier league team like Aberdeen or Hibs,cant see it being 400,000 masel so any drop in income would be hard to take but could be managed surely. OF GTF

Hibs On Tour
16-10-2009, 12:29 PM
The other two are disproportionately big though. Removing them does bring back real competition.

It doesn't mean we will win things - how often have we finished 3rd?

How consistent has 3rd place been over the years?

The difference beween the other teams is not so great and could never really have the potential to go the same way as the OF no matter how much any team wins.

Surely it's better than just accepting that we will be third at best? Anyone thinking the gap is getting smaller are kidding themsleves. They now have budgets over ten times ours and that will always win out over the course.

Not suggesting that other teams would 'become the OF' in terms of their dominance? Where do I suggest that?

The OF, despite their cash advantages over the rest of the SPL, are the worst they have been for the past 15 years. Hearts, if not for Vlad, had a chance of splitting them not so long back [much as that pains me]. If we [or others] took the self-defeatist attitude out of their heads for five minutes, there is just as much chance of us or another team doing so again. Yes, not on a consistant basis [cash will weigh out there] but so what? Beating them is more meaningful than winning without them - end of.

Without the TV cash that is here with the OF, ALL the remaining clubs get smaller and worse in terms of playing staff. We'd be more competitive in a far worse quality league.

Not on my wish list...