Tram bill could escalate to £750m

[GhostofBolivar]

The final cost of Edinburgh's tram project could reach £750m - £250m more than originally planned, according to a senior MSP.

SNP MSP Shirley Anne Somerville also said sources close to the project said trams may not start running until 2013, two years later than expected.

She called on project manager Tie to release latest cost figures.
Edinburgh City Council leader, Jenny Dawe said Ms Somerville was "purely scaremongering".

The project's cost was originally estimated at £498m.

The nationalist MSP for the Lothians, Shirley Anne Somerville, said: "I am very concerned that a number of sources I have been speaking to close to the project are estimating large overruns with the largest being £750m as the worst case scenario.

"But even the best case scenario we are still looking at £650m.

"On the delivery date, we are looking at some people suggesting 2013, which is a two year delay on the trams being up and running.

"I think the people have a right to know how much this project will cost and they will lose faith in the new management of Tie unless they get that information."

Jenny Dawe, Edinburgh City Council leader, said: "The funding situation and projected delivery date for trams running on the street has not changed since being reported to the council last month.

"The dispute resolution process is currently underway and both the council and Tie are committed to ensuring that we come in as close to budget as possible.

"Speculation from Ms Somerville is purely scaremongering - a fact backed up by her inability to substantiate her sources."

Mandy Haeburn-Little, Tie spokeswoman, said: "Not only is this information incorrect but it is deeply damaging to the positive progress of the Edinburgh tram project.

"Categorically there is nothing to suggest that the programme will extend beyond 2012 as had been stated publicly.

"The programme is making good progress and is on track to be clear of Princes Street at the end of November as planned."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8281360.stm

:grr::fuming::soapbox:

If this is true then it's an absolute outrage. All that money to - essentially - shift tourists between the centre of town, ocean terminal and the airport.

It's like the insanity of the Holyrood parliament and the Millenium Dome never went away.

Ridiculous.

[J-C]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8281360.stm

:grr::fuming::soapbox:

If this is true then it's an absolute outrage. All that money to - essentially - shift tourists between the centre of town, ocean terminal and the airport.

It's like the insanity of the Holyrood parliament and the Millenium Dome never went away.

Ridiculous.


You can thank Jack McConnell for his parting shot as he was kicked out of power, he was the one that signed the contract, which Alex Salmond tried unsuccessfully to cancel.

[Dashing Bob S]

Great news. £750 m is cheap at the price. Time we stopped being cheapskates and started capital city thinking and capital city spending. Go TIE!

[Disc O'Dave]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8281360.stm

:grr::fuming::soapbox:

If this is true then it's an absolute outrage. All that money to - essentially - shift tourists between the centre of town, ocean terminal and the airport.
It's like the insanity of the Holyrood parliament and the Millenium Dome never went away.

Ridiculous.

Whilst I agree that the trams project has been a fiasco from start to finish, you can't ignore the original justification....

The population increase in Edinburgh will be around Ocean Teminal, Granton, Waterfront, and the jobs increase will be near the Airport, Gyle, Edinburgh Park, and the tram route will shift a lot of people from one to the other very effectively.

Of course, so did the number 22 bus.

[robinp]

Whilst I agree that the trams project has been a fiasco from start to finish, you can't ignore the original justification....

The population increase in Edinburgh will be around Ocean Teminal, Granton, Waterfront, and the jobs increase will be near the Airport, Gyle, Edinburgh Park, and the tram route will shift a lot of people from one to the other very effectively.

Of course, so did the number 22 bus.

A bus that runs/ran every 3-5 minutes from about 7:30am to 7:00pm.

Madness!

[--------]

Mandy Haeburn-Little, Tie spokeswoman, said: "Not only is this information incorrect but it is deeply damaging to the positive progress of the Edinburgh tram project.

"Categorically there is nothing to suggest that the programme will extend beyond 2012 as had been stated publicly.

"The programme is making good progress and is on track to be clear of Princes Street at the end of November as planned."

You have it here - the word of Mandy Haeburn-Little (and who would dare to doubt the word of Mandy Haeburn-Little?) - "clear of Princes Street by the end of November".

SIXTY-ONE days from now.

Count them. :devil:

[Speedy]

Mandy Haeburn-Little, Tie spokeswoman, said: "Not only is this information incorrect but it is deeply damaging to the positive progress of the Edinburgh tram project.

"Categorically there is nothing to suggest that the programme will extend beyond 2012 as had been stated publicly.

"The programme is making good progress and is on track to be clear of Princes Street at the end of November as planned."

You have it here - the word of Mandy Haeburn-Little (and who would dare to doubt the word of Mandy Haeburn-Little?) - "clear of Princes Street by the end of November".

SIXTY-ONE days from now.

Count them. :devil:

What year? :greengrin

[--------]

What year? :greengrin


Ah - she doesn't say, though I presume she means THIS year.

I'm absolutely sure she's right. :rolleyes:

[EH6 Hibby]

Mandy Haeburn-Little, Tie spokeswoman, said: "Not only is this information incorrect but it is deeply damaging to the positive progress of the Edinburgh tram project.

"Categorically there is nothing to suggest that the programme will extend beyond 2012 as had been stated publicly.

"The programme is making good progress and is on track to be clear of Princes Street at the end of November as planned."

You have it here - the word of Mandy Haeburn-Little (and who would dare to doubt the word of Mandy Haeburn-Little?) - "clear of Princes Street by the end of November".

SIXTY-ONE days from now.

Count them. :devil:

Were they not supposed to be finished in Leith Walk last June? :dunno:

[--------]

Were they not supposed to be finished in Leith Walk last June? :dunno:


I think they were.

But it'll be different in Princes Street.

[EH6 Hibby]

I think they were.

But it'll be different in Princes Street.

Yeah they won't want to upset the tourists any longer than they have to will they? :agree:

[Ed De Gramo]

Edinburgh is a mess like :agree:

Princes Street looks like a bombs hit it and shambles at Jocks Lodge and top of Leith Walk is just wrong like :grr:

[Onceinawhile]

we would have been better off building a weather proof dome over the city of Edinburgh, Have some exits for the M8 and M9, an entrance and exit for planes, and trains, and a gap for the forth.

No more rain in Edinburgh ever

[New Corrie]

Scottish Politicians for you, I am afraid, they told us that the embarrassing toy parliament would be £35 million, £450 mil. it ended up. Just wait until they get the money from "oor oil" then you will see squandering reach new heights. Bunch of fuds, I am surprised that they have not tried to blame Thatcher for the tram fiasco, given that everything else is her fault....apparantly!

[Ed De Gramo]

we would have been better off building a weather proof dome over the city of Edinburgh, Have some exits for the M8 and M9, an entrance and exit for planes, and trains, and a gap for the forth.

No more rain in Edinburgh ever

Or stick the dome over Gorgie and nuke the grunts :greengrin

[Onceinawhile]

Scottish Politicians for you, I am afraid, they told us that the embarrassing toy parliament would be £35 million, £450 mil. it ended up. Just wait until they get the money from "oor oil" then you will see squandering reach new heights. Bunch of fuds, I am surprised that they have not tried to blame Thatcher for the tram fiasco, given that everything else is her fault....apparantly!

Considering the money wasted on a powerless parliament and a tram line that very few people want, you make a valid point, but are the government in Westminister any less guilty of squandering money??


Or stick the dome over Gorgie and nuke the grunts :greengrin

A few hibs fans may get caught in the blast though, would that be worth it?

[Ed De Gramo]

Considering the money wasted on a powerless parliament and a tram line that very few people want, you make a valid point, but are the government in Westminister any less guilty of squandering money??



A few hibs fans may get caught in the blast though, would that be worth it?

Pin point the good guys and relocate them down ER...:thumbsup:

[--------]

Scottish Politicians for you, I am afraid, they told us that the embarrassing toy parliament would be £35 million, £450 mil. it ended up. Just wait until they get the money from "oor oil" then you will see squandering reach new heights. Bunch of fuds, I am surprised that they have not tried to blame Thatcher for the tram fiasco, given that everything else is her fault....apparantly!


The parliament was Donald Dewar's fault - he was the one who didn't want to use the Royal High School building because it would have given the SNP a gloat, so he and Blair decided they'd build a new purpose-built monstrosity at the foot of the Canongate. The administration of the building process took place under him and his ScotLabLib successors - that's where the blame lies, not with the present Government, not with the Tories. With Labour politicians in Holyrood and Westminster and their Liberal poodles in Holyrood.

The trams were to be Jack McConnell's parting gift to the new Scottish Government - always fear ScotLab politcos when they come bearing gifts, I say. Thank you, Jack!

He also left a project to re-open the railway line between Airdrie and Bathgate. They're working on it right now, less than fifty yards from where I sit. The chaos and dislocation is ridiculous. This project, too, is rumoured to be well behind time and well over budget. Thanks, Jack - you were a numpty then and you're a numpty now.

But please don't blanket all Scots politicians with the blame - focus down to where the fault really lies - McConnell and Dewar and their cronies in London. New Labour to a crony, Scots Liberal to the last poodle....

[Arch Stanton]

"Jenny Dawe, Edinburgh City Council leader, said: "The funding situation and projected delivery date for trams running on the street has not changed since being reported to the council last month."

That bit would be hilarious if it weren't so sickeningly sad.

While TIE never admit that the budget and timescales canNOT still be met they seem quite happy, month on month, to reduce expectations of what will actually be delivered.

I can just see Jenny triumphantly unveiling our tram system on time and within budget - albeit with only one tram running over a 200 yard stretch on Princes Street.

A bit reminiscent of the nail factory in Stalinist Russia who, when realising they were 2 tons short of their quota duly proceeded to make two nails weighing a ton each.

[Lucius Apuleius]

As with most fixed price construction contracts you have the initial price then you have all the claims from the builder for extra money for work they argue is outwith scope. I can assure you the builders in question are absolute masters at this.:wink:

[col02]

Is the closure and cutting of budgets for primary schools in the Edinburgh area directly linked to the escalating cost for the tram works?

[Dashing Bob S]

Scottish Politicians for you, I am afraid, they told us that the embarrassing toy parliament would be £35 million, £450 mil. it ended up. Just wait until they get the money from "oor oil" then you will see squandering reach new heights. Bunch of fuds, I am surprised that they have not tried to blame Thatcher for the tram fiasco, given that everything else is her fault....apparantly!

What, as opposed to the fiscal genius of UK-wide ones? Or have they moved the Millenium Dome, Wembley and the Olympic stadium and village (and numerous other capital projects) north of the border?

At least the parliament, ugly fiasco that it is, gets used daily. Can anybody tell me what the dome is used for nowadays? A bigger waste of cash I can't remember.

Oh, and yes, Thatcher has to take some sort of blame for the tram nonsense.

[--------]

Is the closure and cutting of budgets for primary schools in the Edinburgh area directly linked to the escalating cost for the tram works?


Very likely. :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

Can anybody tell me what the dome is used for nowadays?

Me. 40% of the dome became the O2 Arena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_O2_arena_(London)), which in 2008 was the World's Busiest Arena.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Me. 40% of the dome became the O2 Arena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_O2_arena_(London)), which in 2008 was the World's Busiest Arena.

And the other 60%?

[GhostofBolivar]

Me. 40% of the dome became the O2 Arena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_O2_arena_(London)), which in 2008 was the World's Busiest Arena.

£800m for a giant tent of which only 40% gets used.

Overwhelmed I am not.

[Hibbyradge]

Have there ever been any large scale building projects in the UK which have run to budget?

Since the Parthenon on Calton Hill, likes.

[New Corrie]

Have there ever been any large scale building projects in the UK which have run to budget?

Since the Parthenon on Calton Hill, likes.

The reopening and electrification of the Bathgate to Airdrie railway is going perfectly to plan and within budget. It raises the question, how can you do the Bathgate/Airdrie railway for £300 million, which includes compulsary purchaces, a new traction depot and electrfication of 40 miles of refurbished and rebuilt railway, yet a daft tram going up and down Leith Walk costs £700 million.

[Jack]

Well here's something I didn't know that I picked up from another forum. Seems we're (the good people of Edinburgh) up a creek without any form of propulsion :bye:



My pal's missus works for TIE, apparently the biggest problem and the thing causing the major headaches is Siemens, CAF and Bilfinger Berger bid for the contract in GBP, then won it in 2008, at a time when the Euro was sitting at 1.26 to the Pound.

They won the contract with the best bid, never dreaming that there would come a time when the GBP would plummet to 1.09, so their costs have gone up by almost 20% and they are going to TIE saying they need more money.

TIE are standing their ground, their attitude being you contracted at that price, you complete the work, but unfortuantely if the Germans pull out the cost (which is already going to be well over budget) would be astronomical, and no amount of threats of suing for incompleted work is going to get the tracks laid!

So whilst it's a total b*llox up, the council and TIE are screwed, damned if they do and damned if they dont. There was even a suggestion by Shirley Anne Somerville that it would be cheaper if the whole project be scrapped, the streets re-laid and the whole unholy mess be forgotten!


Just another wee observation here.

The 20% in the above quote matches exactly the unjustified amount the bus fares were increased by recently :hmmm:

[Woody1985]

Well here's something I didn't know that I picked up from another forum. Seems we're (the good people of Edinburgh) up a creek without any form of propulsion :bye:

-----
My pal's missus works for TIE, apparently the biggest problem and the thing causing the major headaches is Siemens, CAF and Bilfinger Berger bid for the contract in GBP, then won it in 2008, at a time when the Euro was sitting at 1.26 to the Pound.

They won the contract with the best bid, never dreaming that there would come a time when the GBP would plummet to 1.09, so their costs have gone up by almost 20% and they are going to TIE saying they need more money.

TIE are standing their ground, their attitude being you contracted at that price, you complete the work, but unfortuantely if the Germans pull out the cost (which is already going to be well over budget) would be astronomical, and no amount of threats of suing for incompleted work is going to get the tracks laid!

So whilst it's a total b*llox up, the council and TIE are screwed, damned if they do and damned if they dont. There was even a suggestion by Shirley Anne Somerville that it would be cheaper if the whole project be scrapped, the streets re-laid and the whole unholy mess be forgotten!
-----

Just another wee observation here.

The 20% in the above quote matches exactly the unjustified amount the bus fares were increased by recently :hmmm:

Does that mean we agree to pay them in £ sterling and they purchased all of their materials in Euros?

We should tell them to GTF. If they were smart they should have secured their contracts at an agreed price. They tendered a project and costed it accordingly, there must have been some factoring for fluctuation, admittedly, not at the level it's happened.

I suspect that they thought the £ would only get stronger against the € which would have allowed them to make extra cash. Would they have knocked that off the price? Would they ****.

[Jack]

Does that mean we agree to pay them in £ sterling and they purchased all of their materials in Euros?

We should tell them to GTF. If they were smart they should have secured their contracts at an agreed price. They tendered a project and costed it accordingly, there must have been some factoring for fluctuation, admittedly, not at the level it's happened.

I suspect that they thought the £ would only get stronger against the € which would have allowed them to make extra cash. Would they have knocked that off the price? Would they ****.

That’s how it seems to me. A wee team of Euro German accountants busy on their wee German Euro calculators come to a figure then converted Euro to pounds. Simples!

Except not so simples and now they expect us to pick up the tab! :grr:

I was involved in multi currency negotiations many, many years ago and as you suggest there was normally a clause that made allowances for fluctuations swinging both ways.

The whole tram thing is an unmitigated disaster from start to finish, no matter what Filled Rolls says :wink:. It will take generations before the benefits outweigh the ever increasing cost and inconvenience, financial and otherwise, to the people of Edinburgh – most of whom (90%) will see virtually no benefit whatsoever. That’s not to say the other 10% will benefit either, they are just closer to the tourist toy tram!

[ancient hibee]

They should have done a forward contract for the currency when they won the job.

[lapsedhibee]

Not seen this posted anywhere else on the thread. Not new I think, including as it does "500 million quid to replace the number 22 bus" remark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yOqU4-zE5w

[Phil D. Rolls]

Has anyone considered a tram system without escalators. As far as I can see these are costing a lot more than they are worth. I'll happily use a step to get up like they do on the continent.

[Phil D. Rolls]

That’s how it seems to me. A wee team of Euro German accountants busy on their wee German Euro calculators come to a figure then converted Euro to pounds. Simples!

Except not so simples and now they expect us to pick up the tab! :grr:

I was involved in multi currency negotiations many, many years ago and as you suggest there was normally a clause that made allowances for fluctuations swinging both ways.

The whole tram thing is an unmitigated disaster from start to finish, no matter what Filled Rolls says :wink:. It will take generations before the benefits outweigh the ever increasing cost and inconvenience, financial and otherwise, to the people of Edinburgh – most of whom (90%) will see virtually no benefit whatsoever. That’s not to say the other 10% will benefit either, they are just closer to the tourist toy tram!

What did I say? I'm trying to backtrack on this whole topic and I need to be consistent with my inconsistencies.

While I am still unsure which side I am on, can I just point out that in a generation's time we'll not be able to run buses because there won't be any oil left? Seems to me it's as well to bite the bullet now while we are, er, flush....

I'll get my stippenkaart.

[Ed De Gramo]

For all the slagging i've done about them...it's actually good to see the progress on Princes Street :agree:

[Woody1985]

For all the slagging i've done about them...it's actually good to see the progress on Princes Street :agree:

That's what they want you to think though. Apparently a lot of people think it's great when it's finally done.

I read the comments in the metro the other day, people were giving the tram workers it tight for standing around doing nothing, one of them replied and said 'who do you think laid all the tracks in Princes St, the tram fairy?' :faf:

[Ed De Gramo]

That's what they want you to think though. Apparently a lot of people think it's great when it's finally done.

I read the comments in the metro the other day, people were giving the tram workers it tight for standing around doing nothing, one of them replied and said 'who do you think laid all the tracks in Princes St, the tram fairy?' :faf:

Read that too....and the whilst the tracks being kinda laid in Princes Street...there is far too many workers standing getting paid for SFA :grr:

[blackpoolhibs]

Trams work well down here in blackpool. :thumbsup:

[Ed De Gramo]

Trams work well down here in blackpool. :thumbsup:

Killed Alan Bradley though :greengrin