Old Firm in decline

[CB_NO3]

Was chatting away today about the Old Firm at work and it seems to me that they are in big decline. This is good news for us. I still think they will dominate for say the next 5 or 6 years or maybe the next 10 to 15 years but they are both struggling, but I think the gap will close between the rest of us and them. About 4 or 5 years ago there was a 5 year waiting list for season tickets at Parkhead and now you can still buy them at the start of October. Tonights attendance was 40k which for a champions league game at home is poor for Rangers. I know every team in Scotland has had a drop in season ticket holders and fair play to Hearts for still selling 13k season tickets in current times. Anyway I was thinking that the SPL could maybe go the same way as the Dutch league with the Old Firm being like Ajax, they were a team who has had great success over the 20 30 years but now they are struggling in Holland with teams like FC Twente and Alkmaar getting more success mainly due to Ajax's inability to spend big money in Holland. I also think the standard of scottish football being piss poor is suiting Hibs, now I know we are not in great shakes but I do think we have the 3rd best team and squad in the SPL mainly because the rest of the league is poor. I also think we are in the best finacial state in the league and I would like to see us capitalise on that. Hearts are obviously in big trouble and it is going to take about 10 years to get rid of that dept. Aberdeen I reckon will have to move stadium and that will really pi55 there fans and can see there attendances lowering. Am not sure of Dundee United's financial situation but I reckon they will the team challenging us for 3rd over the next few years. To conclude my post there is no reason why we should not be coming 3rd every season over the next few season, everything is in place with the stadium ready to be completed and the training ground built and the debt being reduced.

What does everyone else think about the next 5 to 10 years in Scottish football and where do you see us and the old firm in say 10 years time?.

[yogi984]

The old firm will always be able to attract better players with more wages because of attendances and even there share of the tv money but the gap is closing though and us being wise and cutting our cloth and planning long term is already starting to come home to roost. Our best players will always leave, but to the championship and not the old firm in the future which is pleasing but all in all I cant see the dominance anytime soon! If the old firm attendances drop then a lot of clubs which depend on travelling support from them are in deep *****.

[Lmc2105]

funnily enough CB that's exactly what the chat was at my work today aswell.. mostly about how rangers & celtic have fallen in the past few years and how they cannot buy the big multi million pound players anymore, i think when teams started not to fear going to ibrox & celtic park and getting results thats when the big 2 knew it was going to be difficult from there on then, they blame this that and the other thing but i agree with you teams are getting stronger and the OF are finding it more hard to get a result these days, look at rangers 3 draws on the bounce, na decent striker and cletic defence is for the takeing, ... al this talk bout the old firm going to this prem 2. it will never happen, if rangers and celtic are going to be in the position they are in now, home grown talent will have to be used and a think thats when the other teams will then show that they would be capable of taking them on, (just my opinion but the way we are atm we can only improve and we can make our mark within the next few years the training complex playing a big part in that) Without that players such as riordan miller stokes might not have came.

i think our main object should be to establish 3rd place as the only teams i think are good enough for that atm is us and Dundee Utd

[PISTOL1875]

The gap between is closing as they can't spend big money on players anymore... eg. £12m on Flo or £6m on Sutton.. However , since they can't do this , they will just go back to what they did a while ago and take players from the other clubs in the SPL.......

Teams have now grown some balls and won't lie down them when it comes to selling there players...

They will always have a better quality of player that everybody else as they do generate massive amounts of income through crowds and merchandise etc....

[yogi984]

The gap between is closing as they can't spend big money on players anymore... eg. £12m on Flo or £6m on Sutton.. However , since they can't do this , they will just go back to what they did a while ago and take players from the other clubs in the SPL.......

Teams have now grown some balls and won't lie down them when it comes to selling there players...

They will always have a better quality of player that everybody else as they do generate massive amounts of income through crowds and merchandise etc....

Doesnt paragraph 2 contradict 1 mate? If teams are growing balls and demanding more money then the old firm wont go back to what they done before.
My fear would be extreme tapping up players and telling them to let the contract run out and promise them a move. With the old firm anythings possible.

[PISTOL1875]

Doesnt paragraph 2 contradict 1 mate? If teams are growing balls and demanding more money then the old firm wont go back to what they done before.
My fear would be extreme tapping up players and telling them to let the contract run out and promise them a move. With the old firm anythings possible.

What I meant to say was clubs are now not being held to ransom so they will unsettle the player through the agent and get a move sorted .....

Of course they will tap players up.. I know a story about a Hibs player who almost got filled in one night after he moved to one of the OF clubs.. He was over-heard trying to tap up a player who was still at Hibs whilst drinking in a pub..

[Barney McGrew]

I think Rangers are in far more danger of slipping away than Celtic TBH. In Mowbray, Celtic at least have a manager who is reknowned for bringing through youth, which all teams including the OF are going to need to reply on more and more - Rangers have a boss who relies on playing geriatric players out of position. If you also look at the Celtic squad and it does at least contain several home grown players that have come through their ranks in the likes of McGeady and McManus, the Huns have no-one.

An early Champions League exit for the Huns coupled with Celtic getting dumped out the Europa at this stage would help things move along too. Celtic seem to be on a pretty sound financial footing so can probably coast along for a few years on their income just now, Rangers are even more gubbed on that score than Hertz hence why they've not bought anyone for donkeys. They'll punt Bougherra to try and balance the books, probably in January and at the latest next summer.

It could be an interesting few years though. I think we're in a position to consolidate the hard work that's been put in putting us in a more robust financial position, and Yogi is being supported by the board strongly in investment in the squad. If that support can translate to consistent results on the park, we might have a chance of giving them a stronger challenge. I'd also like to see an Aberdeen or Dundee United being able to do the same thing as it would make for far better competition.

[mjhibby]

funnily enough CB that's exactly what the chat was at my work today aswell.. mostly about how rangers & celtic have fallen in the past few years and how they cannot buy the big multi million pound players anymore, i think when teams started not to fear going to ibrox & celtic park and getting results thats when the big 2 knew it was going to be difficult from there on then, they blame this that and the other thing but i agree with you teams are getting stronger and the OF are finding it more hard to get a result these days, look at rangers 3 draws on the bounce, na decent striker and cletic defence is for the takeing, ... al this talk bout the old firm going to this prem 2. it will never happen, if rangers and celtic are going to be in the position they are in now, home grown talent will have to be used and a think thats when the other teams will then show that they would be capable of taking them on, (just my opinion but the way we are atm we can only improve and we can make our mark within the next few years the training complex playing a big part in that) Without that players such as riordan miller stokes might not have came.

i think our main object should be to establish 3rd place as the only teams i think are good enough for that atm is us and Dundee Utd

Remember this is hibs we are talking about and it is over 30 years since we regularly challenged the old firm.While generally agreeing with the sentiments we have to remember yogi is nowhere near getting the right balance in the team and also the right size of squad to compete over a full season.We still havent got a genuine rb or cb and the jury is still out on stack although i think that once we get a settled defence he will prove to be a good keeper.
Yogi has done very well considering he is still to get the right blend and also miller,zemmammma and benji arent fully fit yet.We need to stay near third until the window opens then hopefully barr and another player will be brought in for the second half of the season.Aberdeen will improve as the season goes on so it will still be tough to get 3rd or 4th.Injuries of course will be crucial as with loss of form or expecting too much of the younger players.Mccormack,wotherspoon,hanlon and byrne still need time and in byrnes case especially im sure will be big players for us.
We may well get 3rd or 4th this season or next but to be consistently up there or indeed to challenge the old firm we need good financial backing and committed players.It was yogo who persuaded stokes and miller to sign and how many of that quality he can get is debatable.Also once players perform for hibs hey presto a £2-3m bid soon comes in for them.If we are regularly to challenge for 4th upwards any sales need to be reinvested in the team as history shows us that that is what has caused our yoyo history to happen when we have not bought relatively the same quality as we have sold.As i said at the beging this is hibs we are talking about and the only thing that you can be sure of is that we can great highs and bad lows in equal measure as seen by last week.Onto the arabs on saturday and we are all getting more enthused about the season.heres hoping.:thumbsup:

[Killiehibbie]

I just hope it's not a bad patch they're going through and the decline really is terminal.

[Hibs Spain]

Was chatting away today about the Old Firm at work and it seems to me that they are in big decline. This is good news for us. I still think they will dominate for say the next 5 or 6 years or maybe the next 10 to 15 years but they are both struggling, but I think the gap will close between the rest of us and them. About 4 or 5 years ago there was a 5 year waiting list for season tickets at Parkhead and now you can still buy them at the start of October. Tonights attendance was 40k which for a champions league game at home is poor for Rangers. I know every team in Scotland has had a drop in season ticket holders and fair play to Hearts for still selling 13k season tickets in current times. Anyway I was thinking that the SPL could maybe go the same way as the Dutch league with the Old Firm being like Ajax, they were a team who has had great success over the 20 30 years but now they are struggling in Holland with teams like FC Twente and Alkmaar getting more success mainly due to Ajax's inability to spend big money in Holland. I also think the standard of scottish football being piss poor is suiting Hibs, now I know we are not in great shakes but I do think we have the 3rd best team and squad in the SPL mainly because the rest of the league is poor. I also think we are in the best finacial state in the league and I would like to see us capitalise on that. Hearts are obviously in big trouble and it is going to take about 10 years to get rid of that dept. Aberdeen I reckon will have to move stadium and that will really pi55 there fans and can see there attendances lowering. Am not sure of Dundee United's financial situation but I reckon they will the team challenging us for 3rd over the next few years. To conclude my post there is no reason why we should not be coming 3rd every season over the next few season, everything is in place with the stadium ready to be completed and the training ground built and the debt being reduced.

What does everyone else think about the next 5 to 10 years in Scottish football and where do you see us and the old firm in say 10 years time?.I don't know about a few years down the line but right now is as good a time as ever to have a real go at getting some real silverware because they are poor teams.

[HFC 0-7]

Not sure if the old firm are in decline as much as everyone makes out. Yeah they are not shelling out as much on transfer fees but are still paying quite large wages. I dont think it is much that they have gone in decline, but actually the rest have caught up. Celtic and Rangers have argually done quite well in recent times in Europe. Rangers got beat 4-1 last night but their performance was quite good. The ref didnt help things yesterday and defo bottld it for the pen. Rangers have also competed well against Stuttgart and are still on track to qualify so they cant be falling that far behind. Rangers also got to the Uefa cup final recently.

People are talking about how p*ss poor our league is but personally, I think the standard of football has got better in recent times. Sometimes when the standard gets better it is worse to watch because the play becomes more technical and tactical than free flowing. Everyone wants to to see players dribbling past players with nice tricks but these days are mostly gone and its all about passing.

[Andy74]

I don't think the gap will ever close all that much.

They will always be in a position to pay a wage budget of about 10 times ours. That gets you better player whatever way you look at it.

People think Rangers are rubbish now. Well, they have two of our best players in recent years in Thomson and Whittaker, they have Davis, Mendes, Edu, Bougherra - players that we simply could never afford and they will, over the course of a season always produce more consistent performances.

[jdships]

I travelled by train to Glasgow a few days ago and got speaking to a chap who turned out to be on the staff at "Murray Park"
Interestingly he was up there with his praise for the ER/East Mains youth set up
He bemoaned the fact that Rangers, at least , were finding it increasingly difficult to attract 11/15 year olds due to the lack of opportunity that would probably be given them when they became 18/20.
Parents who " had the best interests of their kids at heart" were now more likely to allow their boy to join another SPL side where potential for success was greater
He went on to say that "Junior" teams in West of Scotland are full of OF "discards" , many of whom would have probably made it if they had been attached to non OF teams and therefore given the chance to develop.
The point was made that when a boy gets to 18/20 and has obvious talent that talent needs to be exposed at a higher level - this is only happening to a very small minority at MP
He was concerned at the " return on capital investment" through the huge amounts of money being spent , by Rangers, to "develop young talent " when the chances were that only around 3% of those taken on would make it at "Senior" level.
Interesting figure if true !!!!!
He also commented that " when did Rangers last get a large transfer fee for a homegrown player ?"

Anyone hazard a guess who that could be as we had , at that point,reached Queen St Station and I never got a name !!

A most illuminating 50 minute conversation which left me with plenty food for thought.

:greengrin

[Andy74]

I travelled by train to Glasgow a few days ago and got speaking to a chap who turned out to be on the staff at "Murray Park"
Interestingly he was up there with his praise for the ER/East Mains youth set up
He bemoaned the fact that Rangers, at least , were finding it increasingly difficult to attract 11/15 year olds due to the lack of opportunity that would probably be given them when they became 18/20.
Parents who " had the best interests of their kids at heart" were now more likely to allow their boy to join another SPL side where potential for success was greater
He went on to say that "Junior" teams in West of Scotland are full of OF "discards" , many of whom would have probably made it if they had been attached to non OF teams and therefore given the chance to develop.
The point was made that when a boy gets to 18/20 and has obvious talent that talent needs to be exposed at a higher level - this is only happening to a very small minority at MP
He was concerned at the " return on capital investment" through the huge amounts of money being spent , by Rangers, to "develop young talent " when the chances were that only around 3% of those taken on would make it at "Senior" level.
Interesting figure if true !!!!!
He also commented that " when did Rangers last get a large transfer fee for a homegrown player ?"

Anyone hazard a guess who that could be as we had , at that point,reached Queen St Station and I never got a name !!

A most illuminating 50 minute conversation which left me with plenty food for thought.

:greengrin

Though does it really matter for them?

The world has changed a bit and big transfer fees aren't always necessary to get good players in.

They still generate massive crowds and merchandising and so they can afford to go with better players that they can pay better money to, so there isn't the same relaiance on brining their own players in. What's the chances of them bringing teams of players in that are Old firm standard equivalent to what they can get on bosmans?

We bring in our fair share but really, on average each year are there two or three that are Hibs standard and maybe one or two every few years that Old firm standard?

[J-C]

After watching both halfs of the OF, I think the league will be closer than ever this year, with a lot more teams taking points off the ugly sisters. This could mean a another club splitting them and moving into 2nd place, hopefully that can be us but I aint counting any chickens yet.

Rangers struggle to score and are bothered with pace at the back due to their pensioner Weir, and Celtic will always be dangerous up front but have a piss poor defense.

[reversep]

Barry Ferguson ?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

...And along came an invitation to the EPL2 to save the day...

[Woody1985]

I mentioned on another thread that the best possible scenario last season would have been for Celtic to win the league.

I think that would have put another nail in the coffin of the mighty gers. Can you imagine how toiling they would be without this years guarenteed CL money.

The OF need each other to survive and control Scottish football. Someone else speculated on the same thread that they wouldn't be suprised if the reason Celtic didn't spend money in January and seal the league was to allow Rangers a chance to get back in it.

I'm gutted that Celtic never won the league last season, not because I wanted them to win but because Rangers would be even more ****ed than they are now.

[jodjam]

one way to help bring them closer to likes of us is to increase the league and only play each other twice a season. This will cut the points difference each season.

[Andy74]

Barry Ferguson ?

Alan Hutton would be the obvious recent one.

They also managed to sell Barry Ferguson again!

[jdships]

Though does it really matter for them?

The world has changed a bit and big transfer fees aren't always necessary to get good players in.

They still generate massive crowds and merchandising and so they can afford to go with better players that they can pay better money to, so there isn't the same relaiance on brining their own players in. What's the chances of them bringing teams of players in that are Old firm standard equivalent to what they can get on bosmans?

We bring in our fair share but really, on average each year are there two or three that are Hibs standard and maybe one or two every few years that Old firm standard?


Agree with what you write.
The guy's point seemed to be that RFC were spending a large amount of money on what was actually a pointless exercise.
Personally I don't agree for as you rightly say HFC are in almost the same situation and with the right "marketing of players" good profits can be made.
The difference is we give a good number of youngsters a 1st team chance with some obviously not making it - i.e. Chisholm, Campbell etc . - while at Ibrox few even get that far
Alex Miller once told me if he found nine/ ten in every hundred 11/14 year olds he signed who made it at "Senior " level past 20 he would be very satisfied !!

reversep

Think you are correct - Barry " the crab" would seem to be the last home grown player they have sold at a decent fee.

Was Alan Hutton " home grown" ?

:flag:

[PeeJay]

Was chatting away today about the Old Firm at work and it seems to me that they are in big decline. This is good news for us. I still think they will dominate for say the next 5 or 6 years or maybe the next 10 to 15 years but they are both struggling, but I think the gap will close between the rest of us and them. About 4 or 5 years ago there was a 5 year waiting list for season tickets at Parkhead and now you can still buy them at the start of October. Tonights attendance was 40k which for a champions league game at home is poor for Rangers. I know every team in Scotland has had a drop in season ticket holders and fair play to Hearts for still selling 13k season tickets in current times. Anyway I was thinking that the SPL could maybe go the same way as the Dutch league with the Old Firm being like Ajax, they were a team who has had great success over the 20 30 years but now they are struggling in Holland with teams like FC Twente and Alkmaar getting more success mainly due to Ajax's inability to spend big money in Holland. I also think the standard of scottish football being piss poor is suiting Hibs, now I know we are not in great shakes but I do think we have the 3rd best team and squad in the SPL mainly because the rest of the league is poor. I also think we are in the best finacial state in the league and I would like to see us capitalise on that. Hearts are obviously in big trouble and it is going to take about 10 years to get rid of that dept. Aberdeen I reckon will have to move stadium and that will really pi55 there fans and can see there attendances lowering. Am not sure of Dundee United's financial situation but I reckon they will the team challenging us for 3rd over the next few years. To conclude my post there is no reason why we should not be coming 3rd every season over the next few season, everything is in place with the stadium ready to be completed and the training ground built and the debt being reduced.

What does everyone else think about the next 5 to 10 years in Scottish football and where do you see us and the old firm in say 10 years time?.

I see where you're coming from, but when looking at the big picture, I wonder just how this is supposed to be good for 'us' or Scottish football in general? Teams in decline or almost bankrupt - how does that help us? Surely we need the league to be full of good teams, playing good football, challenging each other and capable of competing with the clubs in Europe? I don't think the demise of the OF really helps us in the long run. Personally I want the OF to be strong and ultimately I want Hibs to be in a position to challenge them - I don't want us to be capable of beating a "down and out" OF; there's a degree of difference between these two scenarios involved that would make any upswing in our fortunes pretty lame (IMO) if it could only be achieved against a declining OF.

For Scottish football to improve in future, we need all the clubs to be doing well both financially and in footballing terms.
Hibs need to ensure that we can consistently reach 3rd or 2nd place to get into European League, or even the CL, to ultimately boost our finances. By being up there regularly, players on our books will benefit financially and the up-and-coming youngsters won't necessarily all want to head West or down South.

The great thing about Turnbull's Tornadoes was that they played great football against great teams, be it Celtic, Leeds, Liverpool or whoever. That's the standard I want to see us achieve at ER, I want to see Hibs beating Scotland's or Europe's best teams because we're better than the best, not because they're all in terminal decline!

[blackpoolhibs]

Alan Hutton would be the obvious recent one.

They also managed to sell Barry Ferguson again!

They also sell ordinary players for way over the odds. We might sell them the odd Scott Brown or Kevin Thomson, but they sell players to daft English clubs like Charlie Adams for £500K. If they were selling DVZ, i'm sure someone would have paid then £500K for him, while we pay these type of players off to leave.

Yes they are skint at the moment, but we can never compete with them, and finishing above them is just not going to happen, as much as we all want it to.:boo hoo:

[Keith_M]

Before the Murray era, Rangers and Celtic were getting crowds only slightly more than Hibs (& Hearts) currently do against the likes of St Mirren, Hamilton, etc. Though could obviously get much more than anyone else in the big games.

The Murray era at Rangers and the McCann era at Celtic changed that, partly because of their success and partly because of the now large percentage of STs at games nowadays, almost guaranteeing sell outs for run of the mill games. For other clubs to start competing again, there would need to be a return to the previous era, which I personally can't see happening anytime soon.

[Antifa Hibs]

The OF bubble has burst, and we can thank that to the well marketed so-called greatest league in the world :cool2:

As much as the gruesome twosome obvisouly did have a massive Glasgow fanbase, they relied alot on the Irish and glory hunting Scots. These days the Irish are turning there backs for the premier league. The last generation of Paddys it was customary to support Rangers or Celtic, these days, kids are supporting Liverpool, United and even Chelsea. Whenever I've been to Ireland in the last few years, i've seen more EPL jerseys than Celtic or Rangers ones. It's the same in Scotland, if your dad or brother or something wasn't into football, it was simple, you supported who was top of the league at that time, Rangers or Celtic. These days though, kids support Man Utd and Arsenal. So kids that are 10 now, in ten years time, instead of buying a Rangers or Celtic strip and getting to 2 games a season, they'll be getting an english premier league strip from santa and will watch yer Man U's, Liverpools, Chelsea's and Arsenal's on Sky.

I reckon in 10-15 years time Rangers and Celtic will be averaging 40k. They used to have waiting lists for season tickets, not anymore. Every game was sold out, not anymore. When these gloryhunters get bored, there won't be anyone to replace them, as the new generation aren't interested in the OF, they'll be watching Man Utd on ESPN.

[jacomo]

I mentioned on another thread that the best possible scenario last season would have been for Celtic to win the league.

I think that would have put another nail in the coffin of the mighty gers. Can you imagine how toiling they would be without this years guarenteed CL money.

The OF need each other to survive and control Scottish football. Someone else speculated on the same thread that they wouldn't be suprised if the reason Celtic didn't spend money in January and seal the league was to allow Rangers a chance to get back in it.

I'm gutted that Celtic never won the league last season, not because I wanted them to win but because Rangers would be even more ****ed than they are now.


Very true, Celtc had a real chance to land a heavy blow on Rangers last season but fluffed it. Without the income from the CL this season, Rangers would be in even more of a hole.

Wee comment on Alastair Johnston's 1st press conference here (http://www.welovefitba.blogspot.com), for anyone interested.

[CB_NO3]

I don't think the gap will ever close all that much.

They will always be in a position to pay a wage budget of about 10 times ours. That gets you better player whatever way you look at it.

People think Rangers are rubbish now. Well, they have two of our best players in recent years in Thomson and Whittaker, they have Davis, Mendes, Edu, Bougherra - players that we simply could never afford and they will, over the course of a season always produce more consistent performances.
Your post sort of proves my point, the players you mention are good players but they are no quite Brian Laudraup, Paul Gasgcoine or Kanchelskis are they. Now the fact they are signing players from Hibs and not big money signings from the continent proves they are in a sort of decline, now thats no giving us any respect but we have been pish for 20 years, sad but true.

[hibsdaft]

in the last couple of years the Old Firm have bought a player we had been recently linked with but most on here didn't want to sign.

that never used to happen in the 15 odd years before - it was always the absolute cream of the SPL, guys everyone had been talking about for years that went to the OF.

now its Kirk Broadfoot, Willo Flood, that ex-Falkirk winger who i can't even remember and guys from the Irish League that fill out their squads.

they still have a few quality players but barely enough to make a full XI.

[Andy74]

in the last couple of years the Old Firm have bought a player we had been recently linked with but most on here didn't want to sign.

that never used to happen in the 15 odd years before - it was always the absolute cream of the SPL, guys everyone had been talking about for years that went to the OF.

now its Kirk Broadfoot, Willo Flood, that ex-Falkirk winger who i can't even remember and guys from the Irish League that fill out their squads.

they still have a few quality players but barely enough to make a full XI.

Yes, they were able to sign the likes of Gow and Flood but isn't that rather the point? They are not regulars but they were still able to outdo us and Utd on them despite the fact thay would have been key players.

In the same period they have also signed the likes of Brown, Whittaker, Thomson, Fortune, Davis, Mendes, Edu, Bougherra and Fox. Guys we wouldn't get anywhere near.

Since Hearts nicked second we've been hearing the OF are in decline. That may be in terms of where they were but they will, for the forseeable future, still be working on a wage budget closer to £30m than £5m.

[JackRegan]

In short...

Huns are in decline due to unsustainable spending, not just at their club but also Murray International Holdings going pear shaped. They are in deep doo-doo and the bank are pulling the strings. What a shame and what a far cry from Minty's Das Huns uber alles pomp of the 90's.

Celtic have downsized. the board will not go down the Rangers route of spending vast fortunes to keep a ahead of a struggling rival, merely to rub thei rnoses in it. Instead, they are using Rangers' predicament at this time, to pay off debt and save cash, should the time come that Rangers get flush again.

Consequence: Both clubs do poorly in Europe.

QED.

[Exiled Hibby]

While I agree that the OF are both facing more difficult times, sadly, I also think that it is probably only a cycle and they will continue to dominate.

In the good old days when I started going to fitba, gate money was split between the home and away teams. The OF fought to change that and the rest of the clubs caved in. That was the fatal mistake. As by caving in it immediately increased the of income dramatically, reduced their own income and increased the divide to such a gap that can never now be bridged for a sustained period of time IMO.

Doesnt mean the wee diddy teams should give up though. There will be some successes, cups won here and there by provincial clubs, maybe splitting them on occasion etc, but overall they will continue to dominate.

If only the English were daft enough to take them what a competitive league we eould have.

[joe breezy]

While I agree that the OF are both facing more difficult times, sadly, I also think that it is probably only a cycle and they will continue to dominate.

In the good old days when I started going to fitba, gate money was split between the home and away teams. The OF fought to change that and the rest of the clubs caved in. That was the fatal mistake. As by caving in it immediately increased the of income dramatically, reduced their own income and increased the divide to such a gap that can never now be bridged for a sustained period of time IMO.

Doesnt mean the wee diddy teams should give up though. There will be some successes, cups won here and there by provincial clubs, maybe splitting them on occasion etc, but overall they will continue to dominate.

If only the English were daft enough to take them what a competitive league we eould have.

Northern Ireland has more of a competitive league and that's how our league would go without the Old Firm.
TV money would be non existent and youngsters would follow English teams or the Old Firm down south. Hibs would win a terrible league now and then.

Mmmh great, if they go, we go. No way could they get in to the English Leagues exclusively and it would be vital for Hibs survival that we make it too.

[Exiled Hibby]

Northern Ireland has more of a competitive league and that's how our league would go without the Old Firm.
TV money would be non existent and youngsters would follow English teams or the Old Firm down south. Hibs would win a terrible league now and then.

Mmmh great, if they go, we go. No way could they get in to the English Leagues exclusively and it would be vital for Hibs survival that we make it too.

valid points. I do think football and Hibs would survive without the OF, although, being realistic, I cant see them going so its probably immaterial.
what needs to happen during the OF downturn is foR the other clubs to seize their opportunities.- even though I feel those opportunities would be limited and temporary.
wouldnt it be nice to see a different league winner in the SPL - ONE EXCEPTION OBVIOUSLY!!

[PISTOL1875]

valid points. I do think football and Hibs would survive without the OF, although, being realistic, I cant see them going so its probably immaterial.
what needs to happen during the OF downturn is foR the other clubs to seize their opportunities.- even though I feel those opportunities would be limited and temporary.
wouldnt it be nice to see a different league winner in the SPL - ONE EXCEPTION OBVIOUSLY!!

Of course football would survive without the OF because there would be more clubs challenging for at least 4 European places... Thus generating more money for the other teams.....

[Hibercelona]

Of course football would survive without the OF because there would be more clubs challenging for at least 4 European places... Thus generating more money for the other teams.....

No.

As much as I hate the OF, no other clubs in the SPL would ever be able to generate as much money as them in the CL.

We'd be knocked out in the first leg every single time.

The SPL would lose the very little popularity it has with the OF being here.

We would no longer generate any TV cash...

And we'd end up like the Irish league.... no money & no interest

Yes... we would still survive... but we'd slowly decay into a very poor side.

[hibiedude]

If the Old Firm are in decline as you say then why is it the next 10-15 years they will still finsh 1st and 2nd in the league so what does that say about the rest of the teams in the SPL :confused:

[ancient hibee]

It will all depend on what the TV companies want to do with the OF and their worldwide support.

[Ozyhibby]

If Rangers are struggling with a debt of £25-30m on crowds above 40k each week, where does that leave our chums at the PBS?:greengrin

[BSEJVT]

In short...

Huns are in decline due to unsustainable spending, not just at their club but also Murray International Holdings going pear shaped. They are in deep doo-doo and the bank are pulling the strings. What a shame and what a far cry from Minty's Das Huns uber alles pomp of the 90's.

Celtic have downsized. the board will not go down the Rangers route of spending vast fortunes to keep a ahead of a struggling rival, merely to rub thei rnoses in it. Instead, they are using Rangers' predicament at this time, to pay off debt and save cash, should the time come that Rangers get flush again.

Consequence: Both clubs do poorly in Europe.

QED.

I agree entirely with this summation.

Its kind of like what we have tried to do over the last few years but on a larger financial scale.

Our argument always is be prudent, be well run gradually, pay down the debt, spend enough to compete, and one day you will be the last team standing.

The only difference I can see between our respective approaches is that Celtic's competitors are Rangers and ours are the rest of the league.

The danger Celtic face compared to us is that the glory hunting element present in all supports will get fed up by constant European embarrasment and leave for good. The risk of this is probably outweighed by the fact they will in all likelyhood dominate Scottish Football solely for the next few years.

[judas]

Was chatting away today about the Old Firm at work and it seems to me that they are in big decline. This is good news for us. I still think they will dominate for say the next 5 or 6 years or maybe the next 10 to 15 years but they are both struggling, but I think the gap will close between the rest of us and them. About 4 or 5 years ago there was a 5 year waiting list for season tickets at Parkhead and now you can still buy them at the start of October. Tonights attendance was 40k which for a champions league game at home is poor for Rangers. I know every team in Scotland has had a drop in season ticket holders and fair play to Hearts for still selling 13k season tickets in current times. Anyway I was thinking that the SPL could maybe go the same way as the Dutch league with the Old Firm being like Ajax, they were a team who has had great success over the 20 30 years but now they are struggling in Holland with teams like FC Twente and Alkmaar getting more success mainly due to Ajax's inability to spend big money in Holland. I also think the standard of scottish football being piss poor is suiting Hibs, now I know we are not in great shakes but I do think we have the 3rd best team and squad in the SPL mainly because the rest of the league is poor. I also think we are in the best finacial state in the league and I would like to see us capitalise on that. Hearts are obviously in big trouble and it is going to take about 10 years to get rid of that dept. Aberdeen I reckon will have to move stadium and that will really pi55 there fans and can see there attendances lowering. Am not sure of Dundee United's financial situation but I reckon they will the team challenging us for 3rd over the next few years. To conclude my post there is no reason why we should not be coming 3rd every season over the next few season, everything is in place with the stadium ready to be completed and the training ground built and the debt being reduced.

What does everyone else think about the next 5 to 10 years in Scottish football and where do you see us and the old firm in say 10 years time?.

Hibs should be in a decent position in relation to other non OF clubs, but the OF will dominate for as long as they play in Scotland.

I doubt the gap will narrow.

[NOLA]

I travelled by train to Glasgow a few days ago and got speaking to a chap who turned out to be on the staff at "Murray Park"
Interestingly he was up there with his praise for the ER/East Mains youth set up
He bemoaned the fact that Rangers, at least , were finding it increasingly difficult to attract 11/15 year olds due to the lack of opportunity that would probably be given them when they became 18/20.
Parents who " had the best interests of their kids at heart" were now more likely to allow their boy to join another SPL side where potential for success was greater
He went on to say that "Junior" teams in West of Scotland are full of OF "discards" , many of whom would have probably made it if they had been attached to non OF teams and therefore given the chance to develop.
The point was made that when a boy gets to 18/20 and has obvious talent that talent needs to be exposed at a higher level - this is only happening to a very small minority at MP
He was concerned at the " return on capital investment" through the huge amounts of money being spent , by Rangers, to "develop young talent " when the chances were that only around 3% of those taken on would make it at "Senior" level.
Interesting figure if true !!!!!
He also commented that " when did Rangers last get a large transfer fee for a homegrown player ?"

Anyone hazard a guess who that could be as we had , at that point,reached Queen St Station and I never got a name !!

A most illuminating 50 minute conversation which left me with plenty food for thought.

:greengrin

Good post :top marks do Hibs not have a training set up in glasgow as well? think thats how we were able to get kevin mccann and other west coast boys whose parents know in reality if they want their boys to progress then Hibs and Dundee Hibs are their best bets( and motherwell )

[jacomo]

If Rangers are struggling with a debt of £25-30m on crowds above 40k each week, where does that leave our chums at the PBS?:greengrin

Or, indeed, when they get booted from the PBS?

[majorhibs]

No.

As much as I hate the OF, no other clubs in the SPL would ever be able to generate as much money as them in the CL.

We'd be knocked out in the first leg every single time.

The SPL would lose the very little popularity it has with the OF being here.

We would no longer generate any TV cash...

And we'd end up like the Irish league.... no money & no interest

Yes... we would still survive... but we'd slowly decay into a very poor side.

So who do you work for then, the daily rangers or the sun, both weegie mobiles as you seem to be, no chance in Europe, knocked out first time every time (ignoring OUR hitory in Europe of course), no longer popular (with who?) no longer on TV (that old one) like the Irish league well big man you and all your old firm loving Scottish game cheating so that only 2 weegie teams ever win might just be drawing to an end. Personally I would drive both sets of shysters down to the border for free. I would even pay for transportation to get rid that set of jokers who since I was 11 travelling to games gave me such a time, point about them for revenue taken but cant we do without ****bags like rangers supporters are? Really if youve been travelling to Hibs games home and away since the mid 70's you will realise that by far and away, by ANYONES standards, these guys werent called the "HUNS" in the 70's cos they were nice, 2 incidents, once when at age 13 amongst maybe 80 people (2 buses) running out of their old stand with 20 mins to go cos Hibs had the audacity to make it 2-2, getting assaulted inside, outside & all the way down the road by huns while glesgaes finest looked on in approval, 1 year later at 14 getting my nose broke by 4 adult huns who decided I was getting it at the top of leith street at 12 on the day we were due to play the huns, a policeman put my nose back into place and that was painful but not as painful as the 4 adult hun fans who formed a ?circle around me, and punched me in the face so many times that once my dish swelled up, people I knew didnt recognise me. Anyways, after an absolute pasting from 4 adults at the age of 14, I walked up to the top of Leith street, where an old fashioned Polis told me to come and see him, my nose was streaming blood but the guy seemed to have a bit of knowledge about him, he said 'wait a minute' while grabbing my nose, then gave me a REAL painfull moment, while he put my dislocated nose back into place. Moral of that story is, 4 huns, surrounded me on leith st., at 14, and they were adults' 4 of them everywhere I turned I got a punch in the face, but that was obviously ok for the "big men" 4 adults and I was a teenager 5'4" tall. But the huns did that everywhere they went in the 70's. everyone despsied them then, maybe even more than nowadays, but there is nothing lower than a hun. Think about it, the enemy in the last great war, and that weegie **** get named sfter them. Wheres the common denominator there? Easy- Hitler & his mob were ****, so are the present day huns- although diddy mcdonald and jardine run adolf close before they blew the biggest jackpot and squandered a totally won league in '86! Arise, Sir Albert Kidd.

[joe breezy]

So who do you work for then, the daily rangers or the sun, both weegie mobiles as you seem to be, no chance in Europe, knocked out first time every time (ignoring OUR hitory in Europe of course), no longer popular (with who?) no longer on TV (that old one) like the Irish league well big man you and all your old firm loving Scottish game cheating so that only 2 weegie teams ever win might just be drawing to an end. Personally I would drive both sets of shysters down to the border for free. I would even pay for transportation to get rid that set of jokers who since I was 11 travelling to games gave me such a time, point about them for revenue taken but cant we do without ****bags like rangers supporters are? Really if youve been travelling to Hibs games home and away since the mid 70's you will realise that by far and away, by ANYONES standards, these guys werent called the "HUNS" in the 70's cos they were nice, 2 incidents, once when at age 13 amongst maybe 80 people (2 buses) running out of their old stand with 20 mins to go cos Hibs had the audacity to make it 2-2, getting assaulted inside, outside & all the way down the road by huns while glesgaes finest looked on in approval, 1 year later at 14 getting my nose broke by 4 adult huns who decided I was getting it at the top of leith street at 12 on the day we were due to play the huns, a policeman put my nose back into place and that was painful but not as painful as the 4 adult hun fans who formed a ?circle around me, and punched me in the face so many times that once my dish swelled up, people I knew didnt recognise me. Anyways, after an absolute pasting from 4 adults at the age of 14, I walked up to the top of Leith street, where an old fashioned Polis told me to come and see him, my nose was streaming blood but the guy seemed to have a bit of knowledge about him, he said 'wait a minute' while grabbing my nose, then gave me a REAL painfull moment, while he put my dislocated nose back into place. Moral of that story is, 4 huns, surrounded me on leith st., at 14, and they were adults' 4 of them everywhere I turned I got a punch in the face, but that was obviously ok for the "big men" 4 adults and I was a teenager 5'4" tall. But the huns did that everywhere they went in the 70's. everyone despsied them then, maybe even more than nowadays, but there is nothing lower than a hun. Think about it, the enemy in the last great war, and that weegie **** get named sfter them. Wheres the common denominator there? Easy- Hitler & his mob were ****, so are the present day huns- although diddy mcdonald and jardine run adolf close before they blew the biggest jackpot and squandered a totally won league in '86! Arise, Sir Albert Kidd.

Stating financial facts doesn't make anyone a hun sympathiser mate

[majorhibs]

Stating financial facts doesn't make anyone a hun sympathiser mate

Nah, you're correct, but for FAR, FAR too long, sinse mogadon millers days, I personally am absolutely seek of hearing that the team I support will never challenge again. I am 43 years auld for ****s sake! I have followed Hibs since I was 7 home and away. Dont you or anybody else try to tell me I cant dream off MY team doing the fantasy stuff, YOU want to be a pessimist then thats fine by me, but leaqve me and people like me to dream. Mate, I saw Pat Stanton for Hibs, the Turnbulls Tornadoes all beit the end of an era, but you and people like you, if you want to be pessimistic, I'm sure there is a website which will cater for you, in the meantime, leave me, Freddie & the dreamers to imagine how far this Hibs team can go.

[basehibby]

While I agree that the OF are both facing more difficult times, sadly, I also think that it is probably only a cycle and they will continue to dominate.

In the good old days when I started going to fitba, gate money was split between the home and away teams. The OF fought to change that and the rest of the clubs caved in. That was the fatal mistake. As by caving in it immediately increased the of income dramatically, reduced their own income and increased the divide to such a gap that can never now be bridged for a sustained period of time IMO.

Doesnt mean the wee diddy teams should give up though. There will be some successes, cups won here and there by provincial clubs, maybe splitting them on occasion etc, but overall they will continue to dominate.

If only the English were daft enough to take them what a competitive league we eould have.

And maybe capital clubs as well?

Nit picking aside I think you're right in that the OF have made a very good fist of stitching up the system in their favour over the years and their collective domination is likely to continue in the long term.
That said, Hibs are in a very good position to capitalise (see what I did there :wink:) on Rangers' and other clubs' financial woes. We're one of the only clubs on a firm footing at the moment and every penny spent wisely now will have twice the impact if the huns and others are spending nowt and trimming their wage bills.

[Hibercelona]

So who do you work for then, the daily rangers or the sun, both weegie mobiles as you seem to be, no chance in Europe, knocked out first time every time (ignoring OUR hitory in Europe of course), no longer popular (with who?) no longer on TV (that old one) like the Irish league well big man you and all your old firm loving Scottish game cheating so that only 2 weegie teams ever win might just be drawing to an end. Personally I would drive both sets of shysters down to the border for free. I would even pay for transportation to get rid that set of jokers who since I was 11 travelling to games gave me such a time, point about them for revenue taken but cant we do without ****bags like rangers supporters are? Really if youve been travelling to Hibs games home and away since the mid 70's you will realise that by far and away, by ANYONES standards, these guys werent called the "HUNS" in the 70's cos they were nice, 2 incidents, once when at age 13 amongst maybe 80 people (2 buses) running out of their old stand with 20 mins to go cos Hibs had the audacity to make it 2-2, getting assaulted inside, outside & all the way down the road by huns while glesgaes finest looked on in approval, 1 year later at 14 getting my nose broke by 4 adult huns who decided I was getting it at the top of leith street at 12 on the day we were due to play the huns, a policeman put my nose back into place and that was painful but not as painful as the 4 adult hun fans who formed a ?circle around me, and punched me in the face so many times that once my dish swelled up, people I knew didnt recognise me. Anyways, after an absolute pasting from 4 adults at the age of 14, I walked up to the top of Leith street, where an old fashioned Polis told me to come and see him, my nose was streaming blood but the guy seemed to have a bit of knowledge about him, he said 'wait a minute' while grabbing my nose, then gave me a REAL painfull moment, while he put my dislocated nose back into place. Moral of that story is, 4 huns, surrounded me on leith st., at 14, and they were adults' 4 of them everywhere I turned I got a punch in the face, but that was obviously ok for the "big men" 4 adults and I was a teenager 5'4" tall. But the huns did that everywhere they went in the 70's. everyone despsied them then, maybe even more than nowadays, but there is nothing lower than a hun. Think about it, the enemy in the last great war, and that weegie **** get named sfter them. Wheres the common denominator there? Easy- Hitler & his mob were ****, so are the present day huns- although diddy mcdonald and jardine run adolf close before they blew the biggest jackpot and squandered a totally won league in '86! Arise, Sir Albert Kidd.

Were you not the one having a go at me a while back for saying that I wanted rid of the OF? :yawn:

No one hates the OF more than I do.

But I was simply stating the facts whether you like it or not.

[Hibercelona]

Nah, you're correct, but for FAR, FAR too long, sinse mogadon millers days, I personally am absolutely seek of hearing that the team I support will never challenge again. I am 43 years auld for ****s sake! I have followed Hibs since I was 7 home and away. Dont you or anybody else try to tell me I cant dream off MY team doing the fantasy stuff, YOU want to be a pessimist then thats fine by me, but leaqve me and people like me to dream. Mate, I saw Pat Stanton for Hibs, the Turnbulls Tornadoes all beit the end of an era, but you and people like you, if you want to be pessimistic, I'm sure there is a website which will cater for you, in the meantime, leave me, Freddie & the dreamers to imagine how far this Hibs team can go.

Don't act like you oldies are the only ones that have the right to dream about Hibs succeeding.

There isnt 1 Hibs fan out there who doesnt dream about Hibs being the most successful club in the world.

As for Stanton and the famous five....

I'd give up both of my legs to anyone who could take me back to those days... then i'd give them my arms as well just to say thank you.

Its ok for you lot.... you's got to see the best of Hibs.

Young guys like me have been brought up through an era of underachievement and disappointment.

Don't act like the younger generation don't dream.....

You older generation have memories....... dreams are all us younger one's have.

[iwasthere1972]

Don't act like you oldies are the only ones that have the right to dream about Hibs succeeding.

There isnt 1 Hibs fan out there who doesnt dream about Hibs being the most successful club in the world.

As for Stanton and the famous five....

I'd give up both of my legs to anyone who could take me back to those days... then i'd give them my arms as well just to say thank you.

Its ok for you lot.... you's got to see the best of Hibs.

Young guys like me have been brought up through an era of underachievement and disappointment.

Don't act like the younger generation don't dream.....

You older generation have memories....... dreams are all us younger one's have.

:boo hoo: :boo hoo: :boo hoo:

[Hibercelona]

:boo hoo: :boo hoo: :boo hoo:

Ya ald codgers!.... It's all your faults! :grr:













:wink:

[hibs1875aye]

Everyone dreams of Hibs winning the Scottish Cup and success. I do, and whilst I'll still be there when we ultimately win bugger all, its good to dream and indeed, in the current climate, cups DO offer us a chance (though NOT the league cup this year :grr::grr:).

As for hating celtic and rangers, I do that too. I liked MajorHibs post on the matter. Bunch of *******s the lot of them. If they went offski tomorrow it wouldnt be to soon. They are worse than hearts in different ways and Id love to see celtic and rangers explode in spectacular fashion, big time. Animals, biggots and ********s all rolled into 1.:agree: