Fiona Pilkington

[Betty Boop]

I mentioned this on another thread, the case of Fiona Pilkington and her daughter Francesca. It is a sad day when a woman is driven to these measures, after being under siege in her own home for years. What happened to our sense of community spirit, when people looked out for one another? As for the police and the council....:bitchy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/28/pilkington-inquest-ruling

[J-C]

I mentioned this on another thread, the case of Fiona Pilkington and her daughter Francesca. It is a sad day when a woman is driven to these measures, after being under siege in her own home for years. What happened to our sense of community spirit, when people looked out for one another? As for the police and the council....:bitchy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/28/pilkington-inquest-ruling


Heard this last night as I was working, all very sad, 10 years of hassle from yobs and neighbours and nothing being done, bloody shocking. :grr:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think it is absolutely disgusting how the kids in her area treated this family. I think a lot of people will know of similair cases in their communities where someone ends up being isolated, and becomes a target for gangs who abuse them.

At the same time, I wonder if we have all the facts about her case.The head of social work seemed to deliver a bit of a cryptic comment, along the lines that they can only help people if they engage with services appropriately. Apologies if I've picked it up wrong, all the facts would be useful.

[--------]

I think it is absolutely disgusting how the kids in her area treated this family. I think a lot of people will know of similair cases in their communities where someone ends up being isolated, and becomes a target for gangs who abuse them.

At the same time, I wonder if we have all the facts about her case.The head of social work seemed to deliver a bit of a cryptic comment, along the lines that they can only help people if they engage with services appropriately. Apologies if I've picked it up wrong, all the facts would be useful.


The mother herself suffered from borderline learning difficulties. maybe that's whay she failed to "engage appropriately" with the services that were supposedly there to help her.

"The inquest was also left with an increasing impression of organisational haphazardness – even chaos – with different agencies meeting regularly but failing to share information or even establish the basic facts of the case.

Although much of the abuse centred taunts at the children's disabilities, police failed to recognise it as a hate crime rather than simple antisocial behaviour, which would have made it a far higher priority.

The inquest heard that Leicestershire police had at the time of Pilkington's death not implemented Home Office guidance on hate crimes, issued two years beforehand.

Hinckley and Bosworth council's community officers visited Pilkington but never even learned until after she was dead that any member of the family was disabled.

An official who dealt with her case in 2004 moved to Australia and his successor did not learn of the family's problems for three years. Case files went missing or were destroyed.

The coroner, Olivia Davison showed signs of apparent bafflement that the family's desperate situation remained unrecognised by so many people who could have helped."

Sounds much more to me as if nobody either in the police or the social work department cared enough about them to shift off their fat backsides long enough even to find out the basic facts of the case.

I have to say it, too - where was the local church? These are exactly the very people we're supposed to be there for.

[s.a.m]

It's deeply depressing. And worrying, that these offences (such as setting fire to a car while a woman and her children were inside) were considered to be 'low level anti-social behaviour' by the police. And as such, not worthy of their attention, and left to the Local Authority to deal with.

[Killiehibbie]

33 999 calls to police over 10 years but the police did not know this. Obviously just another hysterical nutter not worth paying attention to because they've got better things to be doing.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Not read details of the case but it did make me wonder if the Police would have intervened quicker had the family taken matters into their own hands and dished out some medicine.

The road to ruin I know and not one I advocate at all. But if the answer to this hypothetical question is yes there is something far wrong - the odds are stacked in favour of the perpetrators not the victims. This is the case with ASBO stuff as well.

Enough of the rhetoric - "tough on crime tough on the causes of crime". The decent citizens are due their streets and lives back.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's deeply depressing. And worrying, that these offences (such as setting fire to a car while a woman and her children were inside) were considered to be 'low level anti-social behaviour' by the police. And as such, not worthy of their attention, and left to the Local Authority to deal with.

I think the woman herself set fire to her car as she couldn't take any more.

By the sound of what Doddie has told us it sounds to me like the social work are trying to cover their own ass, which seems to be an all too familiar story when these tragedies occur.


Not read details of the case but it did make me wonder if the Police would have intervened quicker had the family taken matters into their own hands and dished out some medicine.

The road to ruin I know and not one I advocate at all. But if the answer to this hypothetical question is yes there is something far wrong - the odds are stacked in favour of the perpetrators not the victims. This is the case with ASBO stuff as well.

Enough of the rhetoric - "tough on crime tough on the causes of crime". The decent citizens are due their streets and lives back.

Hear what you're saying, but I think - with all their failings - I'd rather have organisations answerable to somebody keeping order than a bunch of local radges dishing out summary justice.

[s.a.m]

I think the woman herself set fire to her car as she couldn't take any more.

By the sound of what Doddie has told us it sounds to me like the social work are trying to cover their own ass, which seems to be an all too familiar story when these tragedies occur.



Hear what you're saying, but I think - with all their failings - I'd rather have organisations answerable to somebody keeping order than a bunch of local radges dishing out summary justice.


I realise that she killed herself and her children in her car, but I thought I had read that the thugs also previously tried to set fire to her tyres while the family were in the car. I may be wrong.

However, the fact remains that the authorities regarded a sustained and terrifying campaign of violence and intimidation as unworthy of criminal investigation, or even appropriate support.

[GC]

I have to say it, too - where was the local church? These are exactly the very people we're supposed to be there for.

Not saying this is the case all around Doddie buy my local church, you never see the minister except for a Sunday, it's not even open I don't think.

I'm not religious so this is just an observation so please don't take it the wrong way but how can you contact someone who is not there in the first place(the minister, not God:devil:)

[--------]

Not saying this is the case all around Doddie buy my local church, you never see the minister except for a Sunday, it's not even open I don't think.

I'm not religious so this is just an observation so please don't take it the wrong way but how can you contact someone who is not there in the first place(the minister, not God:devil:)


I worked in Wester Hailes for a while, and I can say with confidence that one or other of our ministry team would have picked up what was going on - if only because someone in the congregation would have heard about it and told them.

There's no way I can get round my whole parish every week, and I'm aware that there must be folks wondering when the last time was they saw me, but again I'm sure someone in the congregation would be aware of something like this, and we would make an effort to offer some sort of support.

(Though I suspect that in the Caldera old-fashioned village justice would take care of the matter - tormenting and bullying a family struggling with that level of disability would be well beyond the line of what's acceptable. At least I'd hope so.)

I see that the father and mother of one of the wee darlings refused to talk to the press after the inquest - said if the papers wanted a formal interview the price was £15,000. And that it had all been no more than a bit of laddish fun - nothing serious. The boys were in n o way to blame.

So that's all right then. :rolleyes:

[GC]

I worked in Wester Hailes for a while, and I can say with confidence that one or other of our ministry team would have picked up what was going on - if only because someone in the congregation would have heard about it and told them.

There's no way I can get round my whole parish every week, and I'm aware that there must be folks wondering when the last time was they saw me, but again I'm sure someone in the congregation would be aware of something like this, and we would make an effort to offer some sort of support.


How are you still alive?:greengrin

I understand, could possibly be down to that community not having a relationship with their local church, I don't know.

I've just wondered sometimes, normally when walking past my local church which is honestly a stones throw from my house as to why it is never open more often and whether the communities only contact with their minister is on a Sunday, you know for occasions when he may be needed for advice.

[khib70]

And it now appears the police are running a super efficient round the clock protection operation for the feral inbreds who brought about these poor womens' deaths:grr: Pity they weren't so on the ball when the pikey pondlife were terrorising the whole village.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6854450.ece

No wonder people opt to take the law into their own hands. I'm not for vigilante justice as a rule, but nothing that gets done to this shower will elicit the slightest sympathy from me.

[--------]

How are you still alive?:greengrin

I understand, could possibly be down to that community not having a relationship with their local church, I don't know.

I've just wondered sometimes, normally when walking past my local church which is honestly a stones throw from my house as to why it is never open more often and whether the communities only contact with their minister is on a Sunday, you know for occasions when he may be needed for advice.


You can't open a building unless there are people there to staff it. In WH we had a squad of members who were prepared to get down to the church building and organise drop-in times and kids' clubs and so on. Unfortunately (here I am making excuses again!) many people who were available to do this 20-30 years ago are now working, tied up with job-experience stuff related to benefits, or just too busy to be there.

I would also say that the WH folks when I was around were exceptional for the Church of Scotland - the truth is that a lot of our congregations are more concerned with protecting the building from vandals than ready to take a risk with the building to offer help to people (especially young people) - help that might just stop them becoming vandals in the first place.

To go back to the opening post, we all need to give a thought to our responsibility for the folks around us - I seem to remember an evil and repulsive old woman once declaiming from a party conference platform that there is no such thing as society - well, guess what? This is what we get when enough of us swallow that sort of crap.

When I was a kid there was a boy in our village who had had polio. George he needed braces on his legs to walk, he couldn't stand upright for too long at a time, and when he did stand up he held his head at a slightly odd angle.

Some of the dafter parents forbade their kids to play with him. When the word got out about this, my parents and my pals' parents TOLD us we were to include him in our games. And if anyone called him a nasty name - like 'spaz' or '******' or 'mongol' or the like - we were to pass the word and it would be sorted. It was sorted.

What makes me sad nowadays is that terms of abuse like those are still in use, and the people who use them are usually not of my generation, but people much younger than me. Except nobody seems to check them now.

There's such a thing as disability hatred IMO, and it killed Fiona and Francecca Pilkington.

As Edmund Burke said a long time ago: "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing..."

[Phil D. Rolls]

And it now appears the police are running a super efficient round the clock protection operation for the feral inbreds who brought about these poor womens' deaths:grr: Pity they weren't so on the ball when the pikey pondlife were terrorising the whole village.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6854450.ece

No wonder people opt to take the law into their own hands. I'm not for vigilante justice as a rule, but nothing that gets done to this shower will elicit the slightest sympathy from me.

Can't disagree with your sentiments at all. It is very frustrating to see this, and I can understand why people would want to exact revenge.

At the end of the day though, why couldn't they just have stopped it happening in the first place?

[--------]

Can't disagree with your sentiments at all. It is very frustrating to see this, and I can understand why people would want to exact revenge.

At the end of the day though, why couldn't they just have stopped it happening in the first place?


Good question. :agree:

[Dashing Bob S]

Can't disagree with your sentiments at all. It is very frustrating to see this, and I can understand why people would want to exact revenge.

At the end of the day though, why couldn't they just have stopped it happening in the first place?

Not the way it's done. People lead selfish lives in communities that have been decimated by right-wing economic and social policies for thirty years. Then, when something goes wrong, they beat their chests impotently and vote for the next prick who runs on a 'law and order' ticket. But of course, nothing changes.

[Beefster]

While I agree that the police and social services failed spectacularly here, is it insensitive to put some sense of responsibility on the mother who killed her daughter too?

My first reaction to the story wasn't "what a shame" but "how could a mother do that to her daughter, no matter how much despair she was in".

[Betty Boop]

While I agree that the police and social services failed spectacularly here, is it insensitive to put some sense of responsibility on the mother who killed her daughter too?

My first reaction to the story wasn't "what a shame" but "how could a mother do that to her daughter, no matter how much despair she was in".

I am not trying to make excuses for the woman, but I believe she was at the end of her tether, trying to cope with two vulnerable children and at the same time suffering from anxiety and depression.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/29/profile-fiona-pilkington-inquest-hardwick

[--------]

I am not trying to make excuses for the woman, but I believe she was at the end of her tether, trying to cope with two vulnerable children and at the same time suffering from anxiety and depression.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/29/profile-fiona-pilkington-inquest-hardwick

:agree:

Acute, chronic anxiety and depression - clinical depression - completely distorts one's view of the world and of one's circumstances in the world.

The phrase that comes to mind is "while the balance of her mind was disturbed" - I'd say she was in a downward spiral of fear, anxiety, and despair where she no longer really knew what she was doing. She'd just want OUT - and she'd want her daughter OUT too. The mechanics of what she was doing would hardly occur to her.

"Diminished responsibility" is another phrase that occurs.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Not the way it's done. People lead selfish lives in communities that have been decimated by right-wing economic and social policies for thirty years. Then, when something goes wrong, they beat their chests impotently and vote for the next prick who runs on a 'law and order' ticket. But of course, nothing changes.

My feeling about a lot of the bad schemes is that they have suffered the "white flight" syndrome that hit the states in the 50s and 60s. Namely, those with the ability to get away from a horrendous situation do so.

What is left is the weakest and most pathetic. People who lack the skills to work, or are physically or mentally unable to. They are incapable of defending themselves or others.


:agree:

Acute, chronic anxiety and depression - clinical depression - completely distorts one's view of the world and of one's circumstances in the world.

The phrase that comes to mind is "while the balance of her mind was disturbed" - I'd say she was in a downward spiral of fear, anxiety, and despair where she no longer really knew what she was doing. She'd just want OUT - and she'd want her daughter OUT too. The mechanics of what she was doing would hardly occur to her.

"Diminished responsibility" is another phrase that occurs.

I suspect "death by misadventure". It could well be that she was acting out a threat to kill herself without fully appreciating what she was doing. Her intention could have been to draw attention to herself as much as ending her life.

[--------]

[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;2193956]My feeling about a lot of the bad schemes is that they have suffered the "white flight" syndrome that hit the states in the 50s and 60s. Namely, those with the ability to get away from a horrendous situation do so.

What is left is the weakest and most pathetic. People who lack the skills to work, or are physically or mentally unable to. They are incapable of defending themselves or others.

I'm sure you're right, FR. We end up with streets or enclaves with a high proportion of folks who are either weak and unable to defend themeselves, or dysfunctional, anti-social, and predatory.

I suspect "death by misadventure". It could well be that she was acting out a threat to kill herself without fully appreciating what she was doing. Her intention could have been to draw attention to herself as much as ending her life.

We'll never know. Most cry-for-help 'suicides' are judged so that the person doesn't actually die - heklp comes in time. But this poor lass had 'borderline learning difficulties' - I take it that THAT means she wasn't too bright - and she may well have totally miscalculated what she was doing.

[Phil D. Rolls]

[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;2193956]My feeling about a lot of the bad schemes is that they have suffered the "white flight" syndrome that hit the states in the 50s and 60s. Namely, those with the ability to get away from a horrendous situation do so.

What is left is the weakest and most pathetic. People who lack the skills to work, or are physically or mentally unable to. They are incapable of defending themselves or others.

I'm sure you're right, FR. We end up with streets or enclaves with a high proportion of folks who are either weak and unable to defend themeselves, or dysfunctional, anti-social, and predatory.

I suspect "death by misadventure". It could well be that she was acting out a threat to kill herself without fully appreciating what she was doing. Her intention could have been to draw attention to herself as much as ending her life.

We'll never know. Most cry-for-help 'suicides' are judged so that the person doesn't actually die - heklp comes in time. But this poor lass had 'borderline learning difficulties' - I take it that THAT means she wasn't too bright - and she may well have totally miscalculated what she was doing.

As you say, we'll probably never know. When I first came to this topic my feeling was there was maybe more to the story than the simple facts presented. I get the feeling it has been a difficult case for the police and social work (and I'm sure medical/mental health professionals) to deal with.

I'm talking in general here, but there are often cases like this where the victim has cried for help many times before. It's a very tough one for services to judge, and I have come across a few people where the feeling is "that person will cry wolf once too often".

I must stress, I know very little of the actual facts in this case, so anything I am saying might or might not apply to Fiona Pilkington's case. I also want to make it clear that the behaviour of all her neighbours - the thugs, and those who stood back - is just not right.

[--------]

[QUOTE=Doddie;2194127]

As you say, we'll probably never know. When I first came to this topic my feeling was there was maybe more to the story than the simple facts presented. I get the feeling it has been a difficult case for the police and social work (and I'm sure medical/mental health professionals) to deal with.

I'm talking in general here, but there are often cases like this where the victim has cried for help many times before. It's a very tough one for services to judge, and I have come across a few people where the feeling is "that person will cry wolf once too often".

I must stress, I know very little of the actual facts in this case, so anything I am saying might or might not apply to Fiona Pilkington's case. I also want to make it clear that the behaviour of all her neighbours - the thugs, and those who stood back - is just not right.



:agree: Going by experience of the Motherwell-Coatbridge-Airdrie area, the root of the problem isn't that individual cries for help aren't answered (though that seems to have been the case here).

The root of the problem is that there are areas in towns where the police and social services have almost switched off - possibly because they get so many calls from these areas, possibly because of folks 'crying wolf', possibly too because they perceive the people living there as inadequate and troublesome, and not quite deserving of proper concern.

And that's not taking into account the changes in working practice that has police officers spending more and more of their time doing paperwork to the detriment of their time on the street....

Appropriate levels of policing and frequent police patrols in all areas of our towns might actually stop situatiions like this arising.

[ancient hibee]

When a senior police officer in Edinburgh can say that the role of the police is not to protect the public but to promote diversity in society I suspect that all is well on the way to being lost.