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Speedway
23-09-2009, 08:51 AM
Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 09:07 AM
I would say if the club is going to be run well off the park which I would say it has then the point in that is we must expect that to transend, if we were in mountains of debt selling off players asap all the time then last night would be the norm.

We hold out now for a bit more in fees we get more for our players we are paying a bit more in wage the expectation has to be pushing for cups and 3rd that surely is the point in the club being run well.

I take the lead from the players we buy and the club being run well has allowed us a few bits of quality, we are not mediocre as far as running the club so we shouldnt be thinking same on it.

Outside the OF we are as big as any other club really, couple that with we are by far the best run in terms of resourcing money why should we be thinking anything other than high SPL and cup runs.

Wellfan1984
23-09-2009, 09:10 AM
Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is :wink:

As for the jist of your post I think you're prity spot on. Hibs and every other "City" Club outside the Old Firm need to realise, well you're naw a big club, certainly naw bigger anymore than the major town clubs (ala Motherwell when it comes to the season. Look at Aberdeen for example, and laugh at McGhee has he left as he was losing our stars, but since when has that ever caused Motherwell or a half decent manager problems at Motherwell.

Not to mention, we have the better manager who has a proven record of playing football with results and not the media bull that Hughes was some Brazilesqu playing Manager of Falkirk, nor have we signed Falkirk's midfield which was woeful last season...

Bottom line, Motherwell fans expected anything between 4th and 11th would do this season - some expected relegation but that was never ever going to happen with Falkirk, Hamilton and St Johnstone in the league while Hibs fans I guess expected 3rd or 4th which lets be honest your history in the SPL shows you have as much right as about 4 or 5 other clubs to have so yes fans can probably take some blame...

euro Hibby
23-09-2009, 09:11 AM
I think its down to history. We have been a nearly team on many occasions but in the end our achievements remain well short of expectations.

We have a past of good footballing teams which have for economic reasons all been dismantled too early.

Our need for success grows like frustration. Managers don't last long at Easter road so there is little continuity , selling players and changing managers.

We should always be third or fourth in the league because of our size and because this year in partcicular we have invested more in players outside the OF.

We need a season to build and learn. Losing is never enjoyable but given the two games it was better to take 3 points in the league than win the cup game.

The board is over the top in good and bad but thats because we are fans, easily blinded by hope and a better future.....

FrankDiscussion
23-09-2009, 09:14 AM
Speedway, are you deliberately contradicting yourself? My first reaction was "away and bile yer heid" but I'll try to be more reasoned.

Motherwell's expectations are low because they've always been pish, historically, since that's the theme you've chosen. Hibs on the other hand are a ****ing massive club in Scotland with genuine tradition and history, so the fans are right to want for (similar to expect but not exactly the same) glory.

How can fans' expectations have anything at all to do with failure? Expectation of fans pushes a team on, and if the players can't handle that "pressure", then they're not the players we want.

You ask why we get so high, then so low. Well, if we're all going to be stoic about football, then why don't we just give up watching it? Why do you continue to watch if it's all such a foregone conclusion that we're mediocre?

Honestly, Motherwell... What a pish example. Perhaps you could have used a better one, like Atletico Madrid. A team who are just as famous as the other two, have some tradition but because of poor investment and pish stewardship find themselves at the arseend of the table with their fans ****ting it, despite having 3 of the best attackers in world football. Not a direct comparison to Hibs, but a sensible observer will note the parallels.

Now away and think about what you've done.

number 27
23-09-2009, 09:18 AM
Defenders who can''t defend.

Midfielders who can't tackle or pass.

Goalkeepers who constantly spill shots.

Strikers who don't score enough.

I'll be bhuggered if I'm taking the blame for that.:confused:

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 09:21 AM
Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is :wink:

As for the jist of your post I think you're prity spot on. Hibs and every other "City" Club outside the Old Firm need to realise, well you're naw a big club, certainly naw bigger anymore than the major town clubs (ala Motherwell when it comes to the season. Look at Aberdeen for example, and laugh at McGhee has he left as he was losing our stars, but since when has that ever caused Motherwell or a half decent manager problems at Motherwell.

Not to mention, we have the better manager who has a proven record of playing football with results and not the media bull that Hughes was some Brazilesqu playing Manager of Falkirk, nor have we signed Falkirk's midfield which was woeful last season...

Bottom line, Motherwell fans expected anything between 4th and 11th would do this season - some expected relegation but that was never ever going to happen with Falkirk, Hamilton and St Johnstone in the league while Hibs fans I guess expected 3rd or 4th which lets be honest your history in the SPL shows you have as much right as about 4 or 5 other clubs to have so yes fans can probably take some blame...

We are as I said fan wise roughly the same as any other club outwith OF, so why should I think or anyone think we should be top of that tree?

The point is I think we should as we are run with that in mind, we have been for the last few years, I have been raging at times but I see the fruits of how well we have been run, the point in this, is to make sure that all this development off the park gives us some strengths on it thus for me anyways giving me belief we should be the best of the rest, that would surely be the point in our multi million pound academy and facilities, in our large fees we get.

When the administrators are at door I will join you but while we are moving along well, I will rightly think we have a good case for high SPL finish when we are brining in players who are not on basic wages.

No offence mate but we are not spending this money to compete with Motherwell, we are not building training facilities to rival OF to be 5th in the SPL, we in this current situation have stolen a march on many clubs, as I said the fruits of the KT, SB deals etc will come through. I am not saying we are here to go for OF but the club is with its regime now giving me the thoughts damn right we should be the best of rest, its now down to the manager and players.

Twa Cairpets
23-09-2009, 09:21 AM
Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

This is one of the most error-strewn, inaccurate, pointless posts I have seen here in along time.

1) It has been a noticable feature of the boards this season that anyone who starts trumpeting our potential is generally given a warning shot across the bows by more sane heads. I cant think of anyone who has posted that we have a natural right to win everything because "we are the famous hibees". Utter fallacy.

2) "If you look at the Motherwell messageboards ... you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low." Which would you prefer - a bit of positivity, a bit of honesty, a bit of hope, a few big names in the team, decent crowds, or being Motherwell? I know which I'd prefer. This one paragraph is, in a post of mostly arrant nonsense, the single biggest load of tripe.

3) Reactions to defeat: We lost poorly last night - and listening to Hughes afterwards, he utterly recognised that. Its disappointing to lose, and any result - good or bad - will bring out knee jerk reactions. thats partly why football is interesting. I find the negativity after such defeats startlingly uninformed and thoughtless, but next week it'll be something different.

For what its worth, thinking about this last night going home, I think the trauma of Mixus reign has had a deep effect on the Hibs support. The lack of atmosphere is like the Blobby era - all hope and enjoyment was sucked out of the fans like some kind of jambo-biased dementor, and it'll take a period of time for everyone to fall back in love with Hibs. The morale is fragile at the moment, and setbacks really hurt, but compared to where we were at the end of last season, last night notwithstanding, I think we're on the right track.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 09:26 AM
Speedway, are you deliberately contradicting yourself? My first reaction was "away and bile yer heid" but I'll try to be more reasoned.

Cheers

Motherwell's expectations are low because they've always been pish, historically, since that's the theme you've chosen. Hibs on the other hand are a ****ing massive club in Scotland with genuine tradition and history, so the fans are right to want for (similar to expect but not exactly the same) glory.

Average of 13,000 fans? Massive club my erchie. What genuine tradition, what history?

How can fans' expectations have anything at all to do with failure? Expectation of fans pushes a team on, and if the players can't handle that "pressure", then they're not the players we want.

What if they are the only players we can afford with the massive support and continual operating losses that we've got?

You ask why we get so high, then so low. Well, if we're all going to be stoic about football, then why don't we just give up watching it? Why do you continue to watch if it's all such a foregone conclusion that we're mediocre?

Football success, is results, full stop. Hibs are more than a football team to me. I've long since given up being fussed about poor results though. When have we ever shown that we're capable of more on a regular basis. Surely we saw last night coming?

Honestly, Motherwell... What a pish example. Perhaps you could have used a better one, like Atletico Madrid. A team who are just as famous as the other two, have some tradition but because of poor investment and pish stewardship find themselves at the arseend of the table with their fans ****ting it, despite having 3 of the best attackers in world football. Not a direct comparison to Hibs, but a sensible observer will note the parallels.

Now you're the one having a laugh based on that particular comment.

Now away and think about what you've done.

Pointed out the bi-polar nature of our supporters having a negative effect on younger fans and player psychology?



Defenders who can''t defend.

Midfielders who can't tackle or pass.

Goalkeepers who constantly spill shots.

Strikers who don't score enough.

I'll be bhuggered if I'm taking the blame for that.:confused:

And yet the next set of player sthat will replace them will do the same, just like the last set of players did, and the set before that.

Why is that, do you think?

Speedway
23-09-2009, 09:31 AM
This is one of the most error-strewn, inaccurate, pointless posts I have seen here in along time.

Thank you.

1) It has been a noticable feature of the boards this season that anyone who starts trumpeting our potential is generally given a warning shot across the bows by more sane heads. I cant think of anyone who has posted that we have a natural right to win everything because "we are the famous hibees". Utter fallacy.

Would you like the list PM'd to you?

2) "If you look at the Motherwell messageboards ... you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low." Which would you prefer - a bit of positivity, a bit of honesty, a bit of hope, a few big names in the team, decent crowds, or being Motherwell? I know which I'd prefer. This one paragraph is, in a post of mostly arrant nonsense, the single biggest load of tripe.

I prefer to be the one that gets better results and gets into Europe without the players knowing that the first misplaced pass will have the bile flowing. Decent crowds, I must have missed those?

3) Reactions to defeat: We lost poorly last night - and listening to Hughes afterwards, he utterly recognised that. Its disappointing to lose, and any result - good or bad - will bring out knee jerk reactions. thats partly why football is interesting. I find the negativity after such defeats startlingly uninformed and thoughtless, but next week it'll be something different.

Do you find it tedious that we never learn from it?

For what its worth, thinking about this last night going home, I think the trauma of Mixus reign has had a deep effect on the Hibs support. The lack of atmosphere is like the Blobby era - all hope and enjoyment was sucked out of the fans like some kind of jambo-biased dementor, and it'll take a period of time for everyone to fall back in love with Hibs. The morale is fragile at the moment, and setbacks really hurt, but compared to where we were at the end of last season, last night notwithstanding, I think we're on the right track.

Wouldn't disagree with your last paragraph, broadly speaking.

Future17
23-09-2009, 09:33 AM
Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is :wink:


That's just crazy talk.....Real will never qualify for the Champions League next season! Or did you mean Athletico? :wink:

Wellfan1984
23-09-2009, 09:45 AM
That's just crazy talk.....Real will never qualify for the Champions League next season! Or did you mean Athletico? :wink:

Well I would accept that. Don't think we've ever played Atletico but we've already humped Real in our history. :faf:

KirkyBergkamp
23-09-2009, 09:46 AM
Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

Interesting question. Are we too quick to get on the teams back when the chips are down against so called lesser teams? Are we self-defeating?

And taking this further, since the common factor throughout the years is the fans you are also asking whether we in part responsible for not winning the Scottish Cup?

Whilst fans cant pull off saves, kick the ball into the net we can affect confidence. All things being equal (skill, experience, fitness etc.) the psychological factors can make the difference. Maybe I'm just getting old but we seem to dish out a fair bit more stick than when I first attended ER back in 1987. Even if it has remained the same I think you'll find that the average age team of the team has come down drastically.

So what we are dealing with now is raw, relatively inexperienced players (and sometimes managers) and I think this is the crux of the matter. They are not seasoned Pros. Some of them clearly still arent even anywhere near being "men".

So getting on their backs is counter productive IMO. And outright as for _abuse_ of Hibs players - if thats your thing then perhaps your better off in the away end.

Maybe if we always felt like the underdog we'd be more supportive, confidence would grow from the support and you have a virtuous cycle. Unfortunately we've had the rug pulled from us on a fairly regular basis so people get frustrated. This then becomes a vicious cycle so mishaps are not easily put behind us - were just waiting for another GK incident, a manager prove he was the wrong choice.

We are where we are and IMO need a radical shake up. It will remain to be seen whether the rhetoric and actions of Yogi allied to his tactics can bring this about. If it doesn't I dont think it will be for the lack of effort or trying. As ever as supporters we have out part to play too. We'll see in due course.

GGTTH.

Woody1985
23-09-2009, 09:47 AM
Not read the thread other than OP so don't know if this has been posted.

Could it be that the players buy into the same expectation as the fans and then think that it's just a formallity for 3rd and decent cup runs?

Speedway
23-09-2009, 09:55 AM
Interesting question. Are we too quick to get on the teams back when the chips are down against so called lesser teams? Are we self-defeating?

And taking this further, since the common factor throughout the years is the fans you are also asking whether we in part responsible for not winning the Scottish Cup?

Whilst fans cant pull off saves, kick the ball into the net we can affect confidence. All things being equal (skill, experience, fitness etc.) the psychological factors can make the difference. Maybe I'm just getting old but we seem to dish out a fair bit more stick than when I first attended ER back in 1987. Even if it has remained the same I think you'll find that the average age team of the team has come down drastically.

So what we are dealing with now is raw, relatively inexperienced players (and sometimes managers) and I think this is the crux of the matter. They are not seasoned Pros. Some of them clearly still arent even anywhere near being "men".

So getting on their backs is counter productive IMO. And outright as for _abuse_ of Hibs players - if thats your thing then perhaps your better off in the away end.

Maybe if we always felt like the underdog we'd be more supportive, confidence would grow from the support and you have a virtuous cycle. Unfortunately we've had the rug pulled from us on a fairly regular basis so people get frustrated. This then becomes a vicious cycle so mishaps are not easily put behind us - were just waiting for another GK incident, a manager prove he was the wrong choice.

We are where we are and IMO need a radical shake up. It will remain to be seen whether the rhetoric and actions of Yogi allied to his tactics can bring this about. If it doesn't I dont think it will be for the lack of effort or trying. As ever as supporters we have out part to play too. We'll see in due course.

GGTTH.

Thank you, that is the discussion I was looking for and that was the question I was driving at.

From what I understand, Yogi is looking to implement a change in training that will involve the players knowing Saturday's team on a Wednesday and injuries aside, the first XI will then train together whilst the rest go off seperately.

I wonder if this will help the seige and underdog mentality that will help them deal with the lack of support in the stands in terms of number and positive reinforcement.

stubru59
23-09-2009, 10:09 AM
Defenders who can''t defend.

Midfielders who can't tackle or pass.

Goalkeepers who constantly spill shots.

Strikers who don't score enough.

I'll be bhuggered if I'm taking the blame for that.:confused:

And managers who wont change the bleeding obvious.

I would need more than a message board to write about the shortcomings fans at ER have had to put with.

We were comprehensively outplayed and outfought by a newly promoted side who probably have less than half the resources we have at our disposal.

If that's not something worth having a moan about, I don't know what is.

sean
23-09-2009, 10:19 AM
Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

i dont understand how the fans can determine how players play on a week to week basis.

everyone has expectations of there football clubs, motherwell i am sure do to,whether it be to stay in the league or top claim top 6.its an expectation,still not a big one but an expectation all the same.

If i was another support of another SPL club i would look at hibs as a club and as a sqaud and i would suggest that we do infact have a sqaud that should be 3/4 in the SPL. we are weak in some areas,but lets face it most clubs would bight there hand of for our strikers.

we are a big scottish football club,not big in the greater scheme of things but still in scotland with the way are club is run and with the players we have the supporters have every right to hope we finish 3/4.

if only the game was played on paper....

Posh Swanny
23-09-2009, 10:20 AM
I would say if the club is going to be run well off the park which I would say it has then the point in that is we must expect that to transend, if we were in mountains of debt selling off players asap all the time then last night would be the norm.

We hold out now for a bit more in fees we get more for our players we are paying a bit more in wage the expectation has to be pushing for cups and 3rd that surely is the point in the club being run well.

I take the lead from the players we buy and the club being run well has allowed us a few bits of quality, we are not mediocre as far as running the club so we shouldnt be thinking same on it.

Outside the OF we are as big as any other club really, couple that with we are by far the best run in terms of resourcing money why should we be thinking anything other than high SPL and cup runs.


Good post. I'm going to save it and re-produce a version of it when the "why do England fans have such high expectations despite winning **** all for 40 years" debate begins in early December. :wink:

Twa Cairpets
23-09-2009, 10:26 AM
Speedway

I dont think there are any fans who follow a team with any pretension towards success who are not monumentally fickle.

Rangers/Celtic "Only ever 2 games away from a crisis" is a favourite tabloid standby
Hearts: A depressing mix of delusion and self-loathing
Aberdeen: Witch-hunt central
Dundee Utd: The minute a run goes against them crowds halve

Other than that, the SPL doesnt really have any team that could fairly expect through income/gate/fan-base to be consistently top six and have a cup run or two.

In Scottish terms, Hibs are a big club, and that is pretty indisputable. The knee jerks of fans are an emotional reation rather than reasoned one.

Trust me - I sit near the the most uninformed group of human stupidity on earth, and hear most of it on match days. Its not their fault they are much stoopid, and no amount of reason or message boarding will change that.

That said, I take in a lot of games in England, and I absolutely believe that the lower placed the team is in terms of reasonable expectation, the more tolerant of poor football they are. What that says about football fans I dont know.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 10:48 AM
i dont understand how the fans can determine how players play on a week to week basis.

everyone has expectations of there football clubs, motherwell i am sure do to,whether it be to stay in the league or top claim top 6.its an expectation,still not a big one but an expectation all the same.

If i was another support of another SPL club i would look at hibs as a club and as a sqaud and i would suggest that we do infact have a sqaud that should be 3/4 in the SPL. we are weak in some areas,but lets face it most clubs would bight there hand of for our strikers.

we are a big scottish football club,not big in the greater scheme of things but still in scotland with the way are club is run and with the players we have the supporters have every right to hope we finish 3/4.

if only the game was played on paper....

I don't disagree with those 'on paper' points Sean.

What is interesting is that only the fans view us as a big club generally speaking.

I think we are self defeating in that because we are so quick to get on the backs of the players including on line and be generally negative about most aspects of the club.

This then ensures that we have a nervous team making mistakes, that any genuine talent is desperate to leave and our 'big club' mentality only leads to the inevitable disappointment, which leads to more negativity.

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy, which has been mentioned by another poster today.

Big Frank
23-09-2009, 10:53 AM
Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.


Yip. You're right. Motherwell (below us in the league) and a game up in the league cup are in this position because their fans and board have lower expectations than Hibernian's. A few hyper Hibbys thinking we are going to go far on the signings so far, are responsible.:rolleyes:

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

Fans are fickle Speedway. At every single club in the world. Nothing new! There is nothing wrong with Hibernian fans wishing the club well and making a fair assessment of the resources Hibernian have at their disposal, that with the right application we can pump teams such as your motherwells, arabs, sheep etc. There is nothing wrong with thinking that Hibernian should go out and try to win every game they play.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.


We are the famous Hibees Speedway:agree: Get over it.:agree:

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

There is so much "bile and venom" because there is a genuine LOVE for Hibernian on this and other Hibernian boards. There are many many factors why Hibernian are in the state they are in. When Hibernian (just like the yams) are successful, really successful, they are a big, big attraction:agree:. Whether we like it or not, in such a small country, only the edinburgh clubs are a threat to the Glasgow clubs. They know this

I .don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

You don't understand the disappointment on a Hibs board after last nights debacle?. You don't understand people being genuinely being worried/angry/happy about the team they love?. Hibernian ARE an big club Speedway. In world terms ? Nope. Nationally? Abso-****in-lutely:agree: At this precise moment - every team outside Glasgow would love to be in Hibernians shoes:agree:

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

30 years for me Speedway, and yes I'm still bitterly disappointed and unhappy at last nights result.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.
At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

You state "Hibs constant underachievent". With the logic in your post, how are we underachieving, given theat we're just a wee club etc etc.:confused: Any loss on the park, no matter over how many years, is nowt to do with the fans.

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 10:53 AM
I don't disagree with those 'on paper' points Sean.

What is interesting is that only the fans view us as a big club generally speaking.

I think we are self defeating in that because we are so quick to get on the backs of the players including on line and be generally negative about most aspects of the club.

This then ensures that we have a nervous team making mistakes, that any genuine talent is desperate to leave and our 'big club' mentality only leads to the inevitable disappointment, which leads to more negativity.

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy, which has been mentioned by another poster today.

I dont think we are any worse than other clubs support reguarding stick, I have never seen players nervous due to it, I have seen them nervous due to being p1sh though, players are only desperate to leave due to money not the support. In terms of SPL we are a big club and small clubs dont spend the likes we have at East Mains to be losing to SJ and being happy at top 6.

The ambitions with the investment is and should be, best of the rest.

If no OF I would be looking at Hibs to be winning SPL and being right up there.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 11:00 AM
Speedway

I dont think there are any fans who follow a team with any pretension towards success who are not monumentally fickle.

Rangers/Celtic "Only ever 2 games away from a crisis" is a favourite tabloid standby
Hearts: A depressing mix of delusion and self-loathing
Aberdeen: Witch-hunt central
Dundee Utd: The minute a run goes against them crowds halve

Other than that, the SPL doesnt really have any team that could fairly expect through income/gate/fan-base to be consistently top six and have a cup run or two.

In Scottish terms, Hibs are a big club, and that is pretty indisputable. The knee jerks of fans are an emotional reation rather than reasoned one.

Trust me - I sit near the the most uninformed group of human stupidity on earth, and hear most of it on match days. Its not their fault they are much stoopid, and no amount of reason or message boarding will change that.

That said, I take in a lot of games in England, and I absolutely believe that the lower placed the team is in terms of reasonable expectation, the more tolerant of poor football they are. What that says about football fans I dont know.

That's interesting and I think that you've proved your own point by posting this very reasonable post just a few minutes after replying to another of my posts by using terms such as 'nonsense' and 'single biggest load of tripe' which whilst it may be true is still unhelpful. :greengrin

I also completely agree with your point that football fans react emotionally rather than with logic and reason. This is the part I've grown tired of.

Hibs represents to me, much more than 11 players in a team. I enjoy my involvment with the club for many reasons, including the game on a Saturday.

I no longer see a need to slit my throat and the throats of all Hibs employees when we get shafted and I think that it is this emotional reaction which hinders us from progressing because there's no doubt in my mind that the feeling in the stands finds it's way onto the pitch.

So when I read the knee jerk idiocy that is posted here after a defeat, I get partly bored and partly depressed that we seem to be an amnesiac fan base who've forgotten that results like this are exactly what Hibs do and will always do unless there is uninterrupted postive support coming from the stands and/or huge money is being invested.

Neither scenario is likely so these results, performances and standard of players can be expected to continue ad infinitum.

That's not accepting medicority, that's acknowledging that for our part, we're doing nothing to deserve anything other than mediocrity.

sean
23-09-2009, 11:06 AM
I don't disagree with those 'on paper' points Sean.

What is interesting is that only the fans view us as a big club generally speaking.

I think we are self defeating in that because we are so quick to get on the backs of the players including on line and be generally negative about most aspects of the club.

This then ensures that we have a nervous team making mistakes, that any genuine talent is desperate to leave and our 'big club' mentality only leads to the inevitable disappointment, which leads to more negativity.

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy, which has been mentioned by another poster today.

i appreciate with what you are getting at.

but to be honest what football fans dont get on players backs?? if we or any other club has a ten game winning streak no one gets on the back of the players.

if its a ten game losing streak the fans get on the players backs...that happens at every club, every job and most aspects of life..if you aint doing something the way its expected you get a ticking off.

although i dont post all the time on here, some of the nonsense thats talked does make me laugh,we do have a very fickle set of fans i do agree with you there.

sean
23-09-2009, 11:09 AM
Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is :wink:

As for the jist of your post I think you're prity spot on. Hibs and every other "City" Club outside the Old Firm need to realise, well you're naw a big club, certainly naw bigger anymore than the major town clubs (ala Motherwell when it comes to the season. Look at Aberdeen for example, and laugh at McGhee has he left as he was losing our stars, but since when has that ever caused Motherwell or a half decent manager problems at Motherwell.

Not to mention, we have the better manager who has a proven record of playing football with results and not the media bull that Hughes was some Brazilesqu playing Manager of Falkirk, nor have we signed Falkirk's midfield which was woeful last season...

Bottom line, Motherwell fans expected anything between 4th and 11th would do this season - some expected relegation but that was never ever going to happen with Falkirk, Hamilton and St Johnstone in the league while Hibs fans I guess expected 3rd or 4th which lets be honest your history in the SPL shows you have as much right as about 4 or 5 other clubs to have so yes fans can probably take some blame...


you cannot suggest that motherwell FC are bigger than Hibernian FC?
hibs is a bigger football club in every aspect.

That doesnt give us a god given right to beat motherwell and finish higher in the league than them, but hibs aberdeen and hearts are bigger than the rest of the clubs in the SPL in everyway bar rangers and celtic

Speedway
23-09-2009, 11:09 AM
You state "Hibs constant underachievent". With the logic in your post, how are we underachieving, given theat we're just a wee club etc etc.:confused: Any loss on the park, no matter over how many years, is nowt to do with the fans.


I disagree with most of your post Big Frank. The only thing we're famous for, is constantly underachieving.

Love as I understand it, has no room for Bile and Venom. That would be 'Love/Hate'.

Negativity in the stands translates onto the pitch and is not entirely liable of course, but also does nothing to assist.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with wishing the club well, it's when it doesn't go well that the fans are the first to attack. That's not 'Love'.


I dont think we are any worse than other clubs support reguarding stick, I have never seen players nervous due to it, I have seen them nervous due to being p1sh though, players are only desperate to leave due to money not the support. In terms of SPL we are a big club and small clubs dont spend the likes we have at East Mains to be losing to SJ and being happy at top 6.

The ambitions with the investment is and should be, best of the rest.

If no OF I would be looking at Hibs to be winning SPL and being right up there.

Whittaker and Murphy are two examples of players who thought the support were a bunch of ***** regardless of the spin in the press. Money of course was the prime motivator.

I've also seen Murray nervous many times as a match wore on, is this due to him being Pish or support getting on his back.

When Hogg came over to the east stand last season to have a word after getting constant abuse, was he making mistakes solely down to ineptitude or was the barracking from his own 'supporters' getting to him.

Some time ago there was a thread on here asking why fans of other SPL clubs hated Hibs so much. It's certainly not down to jealously of sporting performance, is it?

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 11:11 AM
That's interesting and I think that you've proved your own point by posting this very reasonable post just a few minutes after replying to another of my posts by using terms such as 'nonsense' and 'single biggest load of tripe' which whilst it may be true is still unhelpful. :greengrin

I also completely agree with your point that football fans react emotionally rather than with logic and reason. This is the part I've grown tired of.

Hibs represents to me, much more than 11 players in a team. I enjoy my involvment with the club for many reasons, including the game on a Saturday.

I no longer see a need to slit my throat and the throats of all Hibs employees when we get shafted and I think that it is this emotional reaction which hinders us from progressing because there's no doubt in my mind that the feeling in the stands finds it's way onto the pitch.

So when I read the knee jerk idiocy that is posted here after a defeat, I get partly bored and partly depressed that we seem to be an amnesiac fan base who've forgotten that results like this are exactly what Hibs do and will always do unless there is uninterrupted postive support coming from the stands and/or huge money is being invested.

Neither scenario is likely so these results, performances and standard of players can be expected to continue ad infinitum.

That's not accepting medicority, that's acknowledging that for our part, we're doing nothing to deserve anything other than mediocrity.

I disagree with you, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts have a similar ave attendance, there is then a drop off that in turn should ensure that if every club is run as well the 3 of us should be fighting for 3rd.

Now crowds alone are only 1 factor each club has a chairmen and investors, at this juncture Hibs are miles ahead of Aberdeen on this front and the other teams just shouldnt be in question as there attendance is what 4-5k less than ours.

They have done well based on Eddie Thompson doing them a good turn so thats why they are up there so he is like that big investor who comes in and no matter size of club they do well as have money, them aside no other clubs have money so why should we be in with them? When we have made strides to improving club.

We are not training in the park and we are not paying peanuts to a good few players and we are well run, this all factored in gives many of us the right to think we are and should be getting in for 3rd and beating SJ at home in the cup. Most of the SPL is in tons of debt paying lower wages and not paying fees for players with smaller crowds so what are we to expect?

Speedway
23-09-2009, 11:11 AM
i appreciate with what you are getting at.

but to be honest what football fans dont get on players backs?? if we or any other club has a ten game winning streak no one gets on the back of the players.

if its a ten game losing streak the fans get on the players backs...that happens at every club, every job and most aspects of life..if you aint doing something the way its expected you get a ticking off.

although i dont post all the time on here, some of the nonsense thats talked does make me laugh,we do have a very fickle set of fans i do agree with you there.

Of course, but Hibs are up there in terms and speed and extent of attack. This is the club with the fans who had a thread on their main messageboard saying 'Was This The Worst 3-0 Win Ever' :bitchy:

sean
23-09-2009, 11:15 AM
Of course, but Hibs are up there in terms and speed and extent of attack. This is the club with the fans who had a thread on their main messageboard saying 'Was This The Worst 3-0 Win Ever' :bitchy:


i agree we can be fickle like i said..and also like i said some of the threads are awful.

but if players feel under pressure from the stands maybe they shouldnt play football..as every clubs fans expect things of players and if they dont come up trumps they know they will get it in the neck.

playing football myself people give you stick/abuse all the time..its up to the player to change people's perceptions.

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 11:16 AM
I disagree with most of your post Big Frank. The only thing we're famous for, is constantly underachieving.

Love as I understand it, has no room for Bile and Venom. That would be 'Love/Hate'.

Negativity in the stands translates onto the pitch and is not entirely liable of course, but also does nothing to assist.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with wishing the club well, it's when it doesn't go well that the fans are the first to attack. That's not 'Love'.



Whittaker and Murphy are two examples of players who thought the support were a bunch of ***** regardless of the spin in the press. Money of course was the prime motivator.

I've also seen Murray nervous many times as a match wore on, is this due to him being Pish or support getting on his back.

When Hogg came over to the east stand last season to have a word after getting constant abuse, was he making mistakes solely down to ineptitude or was the barracking from his own 'supporters' getting to him.

Some time ago there was a thread on here asking why fans of other SPL clubs hated Hibs so much. It's certainly not down to jealously of sporting performance, is it?

Still dont agree with you on the fans attitude, if Murray is nervous he needs to think about his own ability, Murray has been treated well on most occasions so if nervous thats down to him. It is of course easy for me to say the fans made me play poor rather than look at myself.

I dont think Hibs are hated any more than other clubs.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 11:19 AM
I disagree with you, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts have a similar ave attendance, there is then a drop off that in turn should ensure that if every club is run as well the 3 of us should be fighting for 3rd.

Now crowds alone are only 1 factor each club has a chairmen and investors, at this juncture Hibs are miles ahead of Aberdeen on this front and the other teams just shouldnt be in question as there attendance is what 4-5k less than ours.

They have done well based on Eddie Thompson doing them a good turn so thats why they are up there so he is like that big investor who comes in and no matter size of club they do well as have money, them aside no other clubs have money so why should we be in with them? When we have made strides to improving club.

We are not training in the park and we are not paying peanuts to a good few players and we are well run, this all factored in gives many of us the right to think we are and should be getting in for 3rd and beating SJ at home in the cup. Most of the SPL is in tons of debt paying lower wages and not paying fees for players with smaller crowds so what are we to expect?

That for me is the issue. We've got the right to think nothing. This is the issue on the park. The players don't think we have to scrap to win either and are getting turned over by inferior (on paper) teams. This is where we trip ourselves up, when that expectation and 'right to think we're the 3rd best' doesn't happen, we employ our 'right to assasinate' everything about the club, starting with the players and manager. This does nothing to assist an improvement in the future.

So what are we to expect? Nothing. As Yogi currently says, football owes the players (and I would add the fans) nothing. If a supportive support doesn't turn up in number to back a team that believes in itself and is willing to give everything for the cause, we'll always fall short and the whole thing becomes a downward spiral.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 11:25 AM
i agree we can be fickle like i said..and also like i said some of the threads are awful.

but if players feel under pressure from the stands maybe they shouldnt play football..as every clubs fans expect things of players and if they dont come up trumps they know they will get it in the neck.

playing football myself people give you stick/abuse all the time..its up to the player to change people's perceptions.

I agree, it is. But the fans are making every effort to hinder that IMO.


Still dont agree with you on the fans attitude, if Murray is nervous he needs to think about his own ability, Murray has been treated well on most occasions so if nervous thats down to him. It is of course easy for me to say the fans made me play poor rather than look at myself.

I dont think Hibs are hated any more than other clubs.

Hibs are hated by most, respected by none, in my experience of other supporters and supporters groups for portraying the same delusions of adaquacy that we barrack the yams for having.

I'm not looking for agreement on this necessarily, I respect your opinion. I'm looking for a debate on this subject and I'm getting it now. With regard to Murray, he was crucified (figuratively) on this very board when he was trying to breakthrough into the team, then crucified for being pish when McLeish played him out of position, then he died his hair for the derby and was the greatest thing ever, then he left and on coming back was an unforgiveable judas, then after looking good in a bad Mixu team, he was 'the difference in quality' again.

We're either bi-polar or we're idiots. Possibly both. Neither help the team on the park improve.

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 11:27 AM
That for me is the issue. We've got the right to think nothing. This is the issue on the park. The players don't think we have to scrap to win either and are getting turned over by inferior (on paper) teams. This is where we trip ourselves up, when that expectation and 'right to think we're the 3rd best' doesn't happen, we employ our 'right to assasinate' everything about the club, starting with the players and manager. This does nothing to assist an improvement in the future.

So what are we to expect? Nothing. As Yogi currently says, football owes the players (and I would add the fans) nothing. If a supportive support doesn't turn up in number to back a team that believes in itself and is willing to give everything for the cause, we'll always fall short and the whole thing becomes a downward spiral.

Yes but you have to have expectation thats the point in spending money on players and everything, what does the club do to not have you have expectations.

I realise that there are fans who will go nuts at every deafeat and how its all not acceptable. Why are we reducing debt why are we building East Mains why are we paying more in fees and wages, come on Speedway how can anyone therefore not take that and start to expect things?

I have stated that the level we are at and based on our rivals I expect Hibs to be getting long cup runs and finishing in Euroupe slots surely thats the point in spending more on players and fees, what is the point then what are we to expect?

I have stated there are 2 reactions to last 24hrs, 1 to the cup and 1 to the Manager and team, some people have combined the 2 and think its a disaster I myself have seperated them in fact I only really have 1 reaction as I am not judging a manager this early on, I think we need some players but I hope he knows this.

My knee jerk is the fact we are out a cup, we lose money and we lose chance in something we have seen joy in. the cup by its nature is knee jerk so will the reaction.

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 11:34 AM
I agree, it is. But the fans are making every effort to hinder that IMO.



Hibs are hated by most, respected by none, in my experience of other supporters and supporters groups for portraying the same delusions of adaquacy that we barrack the yams for having.

I'm not looking for agreement on this necessarily, I respect your opinion. I'm looking for a debate on this subject and I'm getting it now. With regard to Murray, he was crucified (figuratively) on this very board when he was trying to breakthrough into the team, then crucified for being pish when McLeish played him out of position, then he died his hair for the derby and was the greatest thing ever, then he left and on coming back was an unforgiveable judas, then after looking good in a bad Mixu team, he was 'the difference in quality' again.

We're either bi-polar or we're idiots. Possibly both. Neither help the team on the park improve.

Coming from Glasgow I have very differnt views from a lot of friends, good football friends whom have ST for both sides of OF, nobody I know really thinks we think we are great they dont really care they hate other teams for whatever reason and Hibs has never been one of them.

You seem to heap players form with us, its a good job to have as the blame for bad play after several winding roads of blame might eventually lay at the door of a player. Sometimes the players alone and manager are at fault and that will be case 90% IMO if they play bad its down to them.

I dont really see what other fans thinking of us as a club has to do with it, by and Large Rangers and Celtic are wrapped in each other with Rangers and Aberdeen having a history, we have Hearts and I would say the rest is whatever.

erskine-hibby
23-09-2009, 11:36 AM
Yes but you have to have expectation thats the point in spending money on players and everything, what does the club do to not have you have expectations.

I realise that there are fans who will go nuts at every deafeat and how its all not acceptable. Why are we reducing debt why are we building East Mains why are we paying more in fees and wages, come on Speedway how can anyone therefore not take that and start to expect things?

I have stated that the level we are at and based on our rivals I expect Hibs to be getting long cup runs and finishing in Euroupe slots surely thats the point in spending more on players and fees, what is the point then what are we to expect?

I have stated there are 2 reactions to last 24hrs, 1 to the cup and 1 to the Manager and team, some people have combined the 2 and think its a disaster I myself have seperated them in fact I only really have 1 reaction as I am not judging a manager this early on, I think we need some players but I hope he knows this.

My knee jerk is the fact we are out a cup, we lose money and we lose chance in something we have seen joy in. the cup by its nature is knee jerk so will the reaction.

I agree.
Being a supporter is an emotional thing and with out those emotions we may as well not be supporters at all.

Twa Cairpets
23-09-2009, 11:46 AM
Hibs are hated by most, respected by none, in my experience of other supporters and supporters groups for portraying the same delusions of adaquacy that we barrack the yams for having.

I'm not looking for agreement on this necessarily, I respect your opinion. I'm looking for a debate on this subject and I'm getting it now. With regard to Murray, he was crucified (figuratively) on this very board when he was trying to breakthrough into the team, then crucified for being pish when McLeish played him out of position, then he died his hair for the derby and was the greatest thing ever, then he left and on coming back was an unforgiveable judas, then after looking good in a bad Mixu team, he was 'the difference in quality' again.

We're either bi-polar or we're idiots. Possibly both. Neither help the team on the park improve.

Back to accusations of arrant nonsense, Im afraid. I genuinely dont know where youre getting this from. I think Hibs supporters expectations are, in the main, about right. We differ in this hugely from our friends over the road. if we are hated by other teams/fans, it is not to do with a superiority complex.

You are guilty of sweeping generalisations and pigeon holing at the same time.

What Hibs have is a fan base that is big enough to house rationalists, skeptics, nutters, loons and regular punters. The only thing I have in common with loads of Hibs fans is the fact that they're Hibs fans. I disagree with almost everything they have to say about the team, the keech the spout towards the team during the game, and their monumental lack of knowledge about the laws, formations, ability and almost anything else you care to mention.

But I would venture to suggest we have no greater percentage of such oddballs than anyone else, and significantly less than many.

KirkyBergkamp
23-09-2009, 12:11 PM
Is this a storm in an internet teacup? Or does it translate to the terrace (I think it probably does).

Speedway I've not waded through the comments. But I think we might be in a minority (of 2?) :greengrin

FWIW I do think that confidence and psychology play a big part. Others (the majority) that think differently fine - were the same as other clubs in terms of stick. But what if your talking young players with potential. They need backing not barracking. Bringing on youngsters most will agree is the way forward. But we shoot ourselves in the feet if we dont give them tiem to develop - take some comments on Hanlon.

However what appears to me as apparent is that the status-quo is getting us no where. Continously shouting at players is not the answer IMO.

One perhaps final thought. Think the Miller era. Think Club86. Think the lauded coach supposedly bringing on young players.

From what I can see Miller didn't bring them on. The odd game here and there (often out of position). (Majority?) of the team were tried and tested older, experienced players.

Why was that? Was it because players were not given time to make the mistakes they need to in order to learn? And of those that he did bring on who really made it? Why was that?

Speedway
23-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Back to accusations of arrant nonsense, Im afraid. I genuinely dont know where youre getting this from. I think Hibs supporters expectations are, in the main, about right. We differ in this hugely from our friends over the road. if we are hated by other teams/fans, it is not to do with a superiority complex.

You are guilty of sweeping generalisations and pigeon holing at the same time.

What Hibs have is a fan base that is big enough to house rationalists, skeptics, nutters, loons and regular punters. The only thing I have in common with loads of Hibs fans is the fact that they're Hibs fans. I disagree with almost everything they have to say about the team, the keech the spout towards the team during the game, and their monumental lack of knowledge about the laws, formations, ability and almost anything else you care to mention.

But I would venture to suggest we have no greater percentage of such oddballs than anyone else, and significantly less than many.

Which in itself is a sweeping generalisation.

I'll start by clarifying what I am suggesting and what I'm not suggesting.

I am suggesting that as fans, we have to accept a percentage of the blame when things go wrong, if we resort to barracking.

I am not suggesting that we are totally responsible and I agree that the players have to stand up and be counted as much as the fans.

Now onto the specifics of sweeping generalisations and pigeonholing. My experience of the internet forums, supporters clubs and individual fans of the following clubs over the last 25+ years is thus:

Rangers - Hibs? mini celtic ****.

Celtic - Hibs? pathetic feeder team with deluded 'flair football' fans

Dundee Utd - Hibs? nasty neds, with 'pigeon crap holding the stand together where the 'die hards' congregate' (actual quote from a fanzine)

Aberdeen - Hibs? think they're bigger than us, what have they ever won in Europe?

Falkirk - Hibs? Big team? we've gotfacilities that are just as good as theirs and we always give them a game on the tenth of the budget. Think they're something they're not.

Hearts - Hibs? etc

This is of course a summary of the most oft heard sentiments expressed by fans of these clubs that I've spoken to, latterly without them knowing of my own allegiances.

there are six SPL sides there, with us as a seventh, they constitute the 'Most of them hate us' statement I made.

So this is where the 'arrant nonsense' is coming from.

lapsedhibee
23-09-2009, 12:16 PM
What Hibs have is a fan base that is big enough to house rationalists, skeptics, nutters, loons and regular punters.

That's the best selection of cliques I've ever seen offered on the board. Brilliant!

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 12:16 PM
Which in itself is a sweeping generalisation.

I'll start by clarifying what I am suggesting and what I'm not suggesting.

I am suggesting that as fans, we have to accept a percentage of the blame when things go wrong, if we resort to barracking.

I am not suggesting that we are totally responsible and I agree that the players have to stand up and be counted as much as the fans.

Now onto the specifics of sweeping generalisations and pigeonholing. My experience of the internet forums, supporters clubs and individual fans of the following clubs over the last 25+ years is thus:

Rangers - Hibs? mini celtic ****.

Celtic - Hibs? pathetic feeder team with deluded 'flair football' fans

Dundee Utd - Hibs? nasty neds, with 'pigeon crap holding the stand together where the 'die hards' congregate' (actual quote from a fanzine)

Aberdeen - Hibs? think they're bigger than us, what have they ever won in Europe?

Falkirk - Hibs? Big team? we've gotfacilities that are just as good as theirs and we always give them a game on the tenth of the budget. Think they're something they're not.

Hearts - Hibs? etc

This is of course a summary of the most oft heard sentiments expressed by fans of these clubs that I've spoken to, latterly without them knowing of my own allegiances.

there are six SPL sides there, with us as a seventh, they constitute the 'Most of them hate us' statement I made.

So this is where the 'arrant nonsense' is coming from.

Thats from folk you speak to yet I have had differnt from whom I speak.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 12:17 PM
Yes but you have to have expectation thats the point in spending money on players and everything, what does the club do to not have you have expectations.

I realise that there are fans who will go nuts at every deafeat and how its all not acceptable. Why are we reducing debt why are we building East Mains why are we paying more in fees and wages, come on Speedway how can anyone therefore not take that and start to expect things?

I have stated that the level we are at and based on our rivals I expect Hibs to be getting long cup runs and finishing in Euroupe slots surely thats the point in spending more on players and fees, what is the point then what are we to expect?

I have stated there are 2 reactions to last 24hrs, 1 to the cup and 1 to the Manager and team, some people have combined the 2 and think its a disaster I myself have seperated them in fact I only really have 1 reaction as I am not judging a manager this early on, I think we need some players but I hope he knows this.

My knee jerk is the fact we are out a cup, we lose money and we lose chance in something we have seen joy in. the cup by its nature is knee jerk so will the reaction.

Well the fact that we've always bottled it when it matters and never stole a march when we've had the chance makes sure I've got no expectations that we'll do it in the future.

Ambitions certainly, but no expectations. We're owed nothing, we can expect nothing.


Is this a storm in an internet teacup? Or does it translate to the terrace (I think it probably does).

Speedway I've not waded through the comments. But I think we might be in a minority (of 2?) :greengrin

FWIW I do think that confidence and psychology play a big part. Others (the majority) that think differently fine - were the same as other clubs in terms of stick. But what if your talking young players with potential. They need backing not barracking. Bringing on youngsters most will agree is the way forward. But we shoot ourselves in the feet if we dont give them tiem to develop - take some comments on Hanlon.

However what appears to me as apparent is that the status-quo is getting us no where. Continously shouting at players is not the answer IMO.

One perhaps final thought. Think the Miller era. Think Club86. Think the lauded coach supposedly bringing on young players.

From what I can see Miller didn't bring them on. The odd game here and there (often out of position). (Majority?) of the team were tried and tested older, experienced players.

Why was that? Was it because players were not given time to make the mistakes they need to in order to learn? And of those that he did bring on who really made it? Why was that?

Loko, you and I clearly agree on this so I haven't got much to add to your post except I think that our midset as supporters will ensure our ongoing underachieving.

KirkyBergkamp
23-09-2009, 12:27 PM
Well the fact that we've always bottled it when it matters and never stole a march when we've had the chance makes sure I've got no expectations that we'll do it in the future.

Ambitions certainly, but no expectations. We're owed nothing, we can expect nothing.



Loko, you and I clearly agree on this so I haven't got much to add to your post except I think that our midset as supporters will ensure our ongoing underachieving.

I think we need Yuri Geller, Derren Brown or Paul McKenna in to do a collective "cleansing" :wink:

Food for thought - whats the difference between us and the Yam support when we go 1 down against opposition in the Scottish cup?

Twa Cairpets
23-09-2009, 12:28 PM
Which in itself is a sweeping generalisation.

I'll start by clarifying what I am suggesting and what I'm not suggesting.

I am suggesting that as fans, we have to accept a percentage of the blame when things go wrong, if we resort to barracking.

I am not suggesting that we are totally responsible and I agree that the players have to stand up and be counted as much as the fans.

Now onto the specifics of sweeping generalisations and pigeonholing. My experience of the internet forums, supporters clubs and individual fans of the following clubs over the last 25+ years is thus:

Rangers - Hibs? mini celtic ****.

Celtic - Hibs? pathetic feeder team with deluded 'flair football' fans

Dundee Utd - Hibs? nasty neds, with 'pigeon crap holding the stand together where the 'die hards' congregate' (actual quote from a fanzine)

Aberdeen - Hibs? think they're bigger than us, what have they ever won in Europe?

Falkirk - Hibs? Big team? we've gotfacilities that are just as good as theirs and we always give them a game on the tenth of the budget. Think they're something they're not.

Hearts - Hibs? etc

This is of course a summary of the most oft heard sentiments expressed by fans of these clubs that I've spoken to, latterly without them knowing of my own allegiances.

there are six SPL sides there, with us as a seventh, they constitute the 'Most of them hate us' statement I made.

So this is where the 'arrant nonsense' is coming from.

Barracking of players I agree is almost always counter-productive. I dont think it is any worse at ER than anywhere else. In Scotland alone, without too much thought, I offer you: Elliot at Hearts, Adam at Rangers, Donatti at Celtic, McBride at Falkirk as examples of players who get/got it tight from their own fans.

If the team play well, they get supported and cheered. If they dont, they get heckled. Surely that is the top and bottom of it.

Your "proof" about how we re viewed is as un-verifiable as any collection of anecdotal evidence I may care to offer to the contrary, so its pointless continuing that debate (Although I still think you're wrong).

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 12:31 PM
Well the fact that we've always bottled it when it matters and never stole a march when we've had the chance makes sure I've got no expectations that we'll do it in the future.

Ambitions certainly, but no expectations. We're owed nothing, we can expect nothing.



Loko, you and I clearly agree on this so I haven't got much to add to your post except I think that our midset as supporters will ensure our ongoing underachieving.

Wether we have always bottled it is of no issue to me, that was different people at a different time, its irrelavant IMO

KirkyBergkamp
23-09-2009, 12:39 PM
Barracking of players I agree is almost always counter-productive. I dont think it is any worse at ER than anywhere else. In Scotland alone, without too much thought, I offer you: Elliot at Hearts, Adam at Rangers, Donatti at Celtic, McBride at Falkirk as examples of players who get/got it tight from their own fans.

If the team play well, they get supported and cheered. If they dont, they get heckled. Surely that is the top and bottom of it.

Your "proof" about how we re viewed is as un-verifiable as any collection of anecdotal evidence I may care to offer to the contrary, so its pointless continuing that debate (Although I still think you're wrong).

At Hibs is there not a pride in being "different" to pioneer? Perhaps we could poineer a support that didn't need to barrack a player, and a team that bought into fitness and way of life similar to the one Collins envisoned would that not really make a difference and give us an advantage? We'll never know. Is it worth a shot?

At the end of the day I think patience is the key. And as someone mentioned as supporters we're often driven by emotions rather than logic and reasoning. We all want the same thing - success. The patience bit its tricky as we've had (too) many false dawns. Too many transition seasons Hughes brought hope, spoke well but we've had upsets. Its up to him how he takes things from there.

I hope he succeeds time will tell how steep the challenge is.

KirkyBergkamp
23-09-2009, 12:44 PM
Wether we have always bottled it is of no issue to me, that was different people at a different time, its irrelavant IMO

Irrelevant? - can we learn anything from history or are we bound to repeat it?

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 12:47 PM
Irrelevant? - can we learn anything from history or are we bound to repeat it?

Learn what? Its irrelevant. Differnt people, different times, how long you want to go back?

Twa Cairpets
23-09-2009, 12:54 PM
At Hibs is there not a pride in being "different" to pioneer? Perhaps we could poineer a support that didn't need to barrack a player, and a team that bought into fitness and way of life similar to the one Collins envisoned would that not really make a difference and give us an advantage? We'll never know. Is it worth a shot?

At the end of the day I think patience is the key. And as someone mentioned as supporters we're often driven by emotions rather than logic and reasoning. We all want the same thing - success. The patience bit its tricky as we've had (too) many false dawns. Too many transition seasons Hughes brought hope, spoke well but we've had upsets. Its up to him how he takes things from there.

I hope he succeeds time will tell how steep the challenge is.

Not disputing the plus points of patience - I'm all for it myself. But good luck with the social engineering of football fans. You can change attitudes on things that have a wider societal impact such as racism and sexism, but this may be one that is beyond the scope of the most enlightened club.

Being a football fan is an inherently illogical thing. For a Hibby, investing massive emotional capital in eleven people you dont know, often (apparently) dont like, and with no huge expectation of significant success is surely fundamentally something that should get you locked up.

As long as football involves emotionand passion, I think the opportunity to afford such patience as you (and probably I) would like to players just aint going to happen. Why? Easy - you will be wrong as often as you are right. If patience = success, then fantastic, we'd all be doing it. But sadly it doesnt - you may increae your chances slightly for an individual to do well, but equally you may be constricting opportunity for someone to come in and do a job because you are giving someone else "every opportunity". Recent examples at ER? Ross Chisholm, AOB, Ross Campbell, and if I go back my 35 odd years of attending, I could name plenty more.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 01:00 PM
Not disputing the plus points of patience - I'm all for it myself. But good luck with the social engineering of football fans. You can change attitudes on things that have a wider societal impact such as racism and sexism, but this may be one that is beyond the scope of the most enlightened club.

Being a football fan is an inherently illogical thing. For a Hibby, investing massive emotional capital in eleven people you dont know, often (apparently) dont like, and with no huge expectation of significant success is surely fundamentally something that should get you locked up.

As long as football involves emotionand passion, I think the opportunity to afford such patience as you (and probably I) would like to players just aint going to happen. Why? Easy - you will be wrong as often as you are right. If patience = success, then fantastic, we'd all be doing it. But sadly it doesnt - you may increae your chances slightly for an individual to do well, but equally you may be constricting opportunity for someone to come in and do a job because you are giving someone else "every opportunity". Recent examples at ER? Ross Chisholm, AOB, Ross Campbell, and if I go back my 35 odd years of attending, I could name plenty more.

So whilst the fan remains resistant, the barracking will continue on-line and off-line with the same unjustified expectations and the same bile when those expectations don't get met.

Different players, different managers, similar outcomes.

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 01:02 PM
So whilst the fan remains resistant, the barracking will continue on-line and off-line with the same unjustified expectations and the same bile when those expectations don't get met.

Different players, different managers, similar outcomes.

These are only unjustified in your opinion and IMO the "barracking" is of zero consequence to our progression. I also think the barracking is far far less than the support they get, so why not a focus on the bigger thing the players get support.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 01:09 PM
These are only unjustified in your opinion and IMO the "barracking" is of zero consequence to our progression. I also think the barracking is far far less than the support they get, so why not a focus on the bigger thing the players get support.

Are you trying to tell me that there is more positive shouting than negative at a game and that there are more psotive threads than negative threads on here and the bounce and that these things have no effect on our progress either way?

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 01:13 PM
Are you trying to tell me that there is more positive shouting than negative at a game and that there are more psotive threads than negative threads on here and the bounce and that these things have no effect on our progress either way?

Yes I am at the game, the positive is as a whole Ie when players come out with the Hibees chants etc, the barracking is selective and less clear, the support when given is far louder. What would threads on here do?

For me I would accept my ability and have no interest in threads on here, if players are bothered then so be it, IMO no effect on club progress.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 01:18 PM
Yes I am at the game, the positive is as a whole Ie when players come out with the Hibees chants etc, the barracking is selective and less clear, the support when given is far louder. What would threads on here do?

For me I would accept my ability and have no interest in threads on here, if players are bothered then so be it, IMO no effect on club progress.

Okay, so if I come to your place of work, stand about 50 yards away from your desk, scream at you each day for being 'a ******* disgrace' so that everyone can hear and tell you how that last piece of work was 'Pish' and then when that was done, go onto your work's website forum and engage everyone including people you know on how crap and inept you are, that you are a wage thief, alcoholic etc and do that more days than not, 12 months later, you are telling me that it would have had little if any effect on your psyche. Yes?

Twa Cairpets
23-09-2009, 01:42 PM
Okay, so if I come to your place of work, stand about 50 yards away from your desk, scream at you each day for being 'a ******* disgrace' so that everyone can hear and tell you how that last piece of work was 'Pish' and then when that was done, go onto your work's website forum and engage everyone including people you know on how crap and inept you are, that you are a wage thief, alcoholic etc and do that more days than not, 12 months later, you are telling me that it would have had little if any effect on your psyche. Yes?

Och don't be so silly.

This is a fatuous argument. Football is a very individual employment, and not one single professional hasnt a pretty good idea of what is involved when they get into the job. 50% of the time they have the vast majority of supporters giving them dogs (thats the opposition fans at away games, not ER by the way), and you dont see the poor sensitive wee souls withering. If it was youth football, aye, fine, it might have an effect, but this is high standard professional football.

What are fans meant to do when a player makes a ricket and gives away a ball that the opposition score from? Maintain a dignified silence or quietly say "dont worry old chap, it'll be fine next time"

vahibbie
23-09-2009, 01:43 PM
Are you trying to tell me that there is more positive shouting than negative at a game and that there are more psotive threads than negative threads on here and the bounce and that these things have no effect on our progress either way?

The boards are full of positive threads when things are going well:devil:
Or mibbe you would like these to be toned down as well. I mean if we can't be too critical we definitely shouldn't be jumping up and down with glee when we actually do something good.
Players have faced barracking probably since the first game paying customers walk through the gates. However they do get both ends of the spectrum, God like adulation or complete numptie, don't see how you can have one without the other.
On your "expectations" comments, I for one most certainly expect more from this team. Not all supporters are "stupid", as some were refered to on this thread. Some can look at the facilities, resources available, potential quality of squad etc...etc...and make a reasoned estimate of how their team will do.
I, like many on here estimated decent Cup runs and 3rd or 4th in the league.
Obviously I wasn't there last night but I did watch it live and believe me there was barracking aplenty. Of course being long distance it wouldn't have effected anyone's performance:wink:

Speedway
23-09-2009, 03:18 PM
Och don't be so silly.

This is a fatuous argument. Football is a very individual employment, and not one single professional hasnt a pretty good idea of what is involved when they get into the job. 50% of the time they have the vast majority of supporters giving them dogs (thats the opposition fans at away games, not ER by the way), and you dont see the poor sensitive wee souls withering. If it was youth football, aye, fine, it might have an effect, but this is high standard professional football.

What are fans meant to do when a player makes a ricket and gives away a ball that the opposition score from? Maintain a dignified silence or quietly say "dont worry old chap, it'll be fine next time"

Life's not like that though is it.

Going by your line of reasoning, it's going to make no difference on performance if Yogi and Rice berate the players every day in training for the next few months than it would if they are slanted towards positive reinforcement?

Have a day off.

Matchday crowds can have a similar effect on individual psyche, as can internet messageboards. Fabian Yantorno is a good recent case study of this in terms of what happened to him last year.

KirkyBergkamp
23-09-2009, 03:28 PM
Och don't be so silly.

This is a fatuous argument. Football is a very individual employment, and not one single professional hasnt a pretty good idea of what is involved when they get into the job. 50% of the time they have the vast majority of supporters giving them dogs (thats the opposition fans at away games, not ER by the way), and you dont see the poor sensitive wee souls withering. If it was youth football, aye, fine, it might have an effect, but this is high standard professional football.

What are fans meant to do when a player makes a ricket and gives away a ball that the opposition score from? Maintain a dignified silence or quietly say "dont worry old chap, it'll be fine next time"

Do we not score an own goal by doing the opposing teams work for them?
I think the contest is tied with opposing views pretty much as they were.
I accept that attitudes and culture is the most difficult thing to change in anything.

I dont think anyone is suggesting supporting without criticism. It is the incessant slaughtering of players that some folks get mixed up in.

As to whether this is good for the players or not you just need to listen to the comments of the younger supporters when they hear this.

joe breezy
23-09-2009, 03:35 PM
Barracking of players I agree is almost always counter-productive. I dont think it is any worse at ER than anywhere else. In Scotland alone, without too much thought, I offer you: Elliot at Hearts, Adam at Rangers, Donatti at Celtic, McBride at Falkirk as examples of players who get/got it tight from their own fans.

If the team play well, they get supported and cheered. If they dont, they get heckled. Surely that is the top and bottom of it.

Your "proof" about how we re viewed is as un-verifiable as any collection of anecdotal evidence I may care to offer to the contrary, so its pointless continuing that debate (Although I still think you're wrong).

Yes to blame it on the fans due to expectations is nonsense.

Our fans could be louder though, Easter Road is not an intimidating ground to come to, unless you were an opposition casual in the 80s, but for opposition players it must be almost like playing at home.

With regards to expectations I used to go to Thistle games as a boy and their fans shout as much at their players and certainly used to have high expectations, I think most fans do.
Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United all expect to be 3rd and win something now and then, that's not the fans fault.

If professional sports employees can't handle this pressure they shouldn't take the job.

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 03:35 PM
Okay, so if I come to your place of work, stand about 50 yards away from your desk, scream at you each day for being 'a ******* disgrace' so that everyone can hear and tell you how that last piece of work was 'Pish' and then when that was done, go onto your work's website forum and engage everyone including people you know on how crap and inept you are, that you are a wage thief, alcoholic etc and do that more days than not, 12 months later, you are telling me that it would have had little if any effect on your psyche. Yes?

Why focus on that? there are 10,000 fans in ground and some shout at me, big deal. What of the 1000s who clap the pass and the goal?

Spike Mandela
23-09-2009, 03:39 PM
Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

Our U-19's swept the board last year but we have really only regularly played one of them whilst Motherwell seem to be thriving by playing a large chunk of their U-19's.

Should we be be promoting more of our youth??

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 03:42 PM
Life's not like that though is it.

Going by your line of reasoning, it's going to make no difference on performance if Yogi and Rice berate the players every day in training for the next few months than it would if they are slanted towards positive reinforcement?

Have a day off.

Matchday crowds can have a similar effect on individual psyche, as can internet messageboards. Fabian Yantorno is a good recent case study of this in terms of what happened to him last year.

fans shout at players at every club so why are there succesful clubs? the abuse players get at say Italian clubs is 10x worse than what say Rankin or Alan Obrien got or gets, thing is IMo the players dont really focus on it, in heat of game they need to hear it I bet when I shout it gets lost in noise of everything else.

Clubs are sucsesful due to how they are run and the players signed along with manager, a few folk on here and at games given it tight to JR matters not a jot.

You say about somebody shoutiung at me doing my job, lets see how many players who get stick fancy the 9-5 or the stick?

You seem to be under impression we are the worst for it, OF give there own plenty of stick, as does every club, its part of game rightly or wrongly.

Twa Cairpets
23-09-2009, 03:44 PM
Life's not like that though is it.

Going by your line of reasoning, it's going to make no difference on performance if Yogi and Rice berate the players every day in training for the next few months than it would if they are slanted towards positive reinforcement?

Have a day off.

Matchday crowds can have a similar effect on individual psyche, as can internet messageboards. Fabian Yantorno is a good recent case study of this in terms of what happened to him last year.

Interesting wilful misinterpretation of my point.

I'm talking about the nature of professional football. You're suddenly off on some tangent about Rice and Hughes! As in any role, the management of individuals will be best achieved by understanding each individuals drives and needs. Some need a hug, others need a kick. Thats up to them to manage, and has zero to do with your OP.

One would hope part of the management is teaching players how to cope with the more appalling abuse they will get. Hey - im not defending any knuckle dragging, barely evolved lowlife getting his jollies by spending the match ripping the Lillian out of, say, Rankin - not by any stretch. But it would absurd in the extreme to imagine that players dont go into this with their eyes wide open, and - one would hope - with tools to help them cope with it.

As for the Yantorno point - I have no idea what you are on about here. He hardly kicked a ball in anger all season - he didnt have enough pitch time to be barracked

hibhib7
23-09-2009, 03:45 PM
Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?Can't unerstand this post. You start off by telling us why we should be better than them and end up telling us we shouldn't expect to be. Disnae make sense.

Speedway
23-09-2009, 04:12 PM
Interesting wilful misinterpretation of my point.

I'm talking about the nature of professional football. You're suddenly off on some tangent about Rice and Hughes! As in any role, the management of individuals will be best achieved by understanding each individuals drives and needs. Some need a hug, others need a kick. Thats up to them to manage, and has zero to do with your OP.

One would hope part of the management is teaching players how to cope with the more appalling abuse they will get. Hey - im not defending any knuckle dragging, barely evolved lowlife getting his jollies by spending the match ripping the Lillian out of, say, Rankin - not by any stretch. But it would absurd in the extreme to imagine that players dont go into this with their eyes wide open, and - one would hope - with tools to help them cope with it.

As for the Yantorno point - I have no idea what you are on about here. He hardly kicked a ball in anger all season - he didnt have enough pitch time to be barracked

The overall point here is that the players respond better to support than criticism as a whole and the slaughtering of the team on here last night and many other times, just further hinders improvement.

Supporters should support. Typically they pay their money to earn the right to vent their spleen. That's not supporting in any human sense

In Yantorno's case, here's a guy getting paid every week, no need to play but was still miserable as sin and that affected his self belief. It is reported when he moved to Chester that he spent his time at home reading posts such as on .net where posters were offering opinions such as 'Should never have signed him, waste of a wage, never good enough for Hibs hence why he's not playing etc.

McCann had a similar problem and the fans did get on his back on the pitch as he played on with an injury, and he suffered. Whether or not professional footballers can take certain levels of abuse doesn't justify/condone the abuse nor does it help the situation.

So the next part of the discussion is:

1. Why do supporters (in this case, Hibs supporters) willingly assist the team's decline by slaughtering them on and off the pitch?

2. Returning to the OP, why when we've spent money on bringing in a widely agreed better standard of playing and coaching personnel, do we still deliver the same Hibsesque results as we've done year in year out with the odd exception, for the last 30+ years?

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 04:22 PM
The overall point here is that the players respond better to support than criticism as a whole and the slaughtering of the team on here last night and many other times, just further hinders improvement.

Supporters should support. Typically they pay their money to earn the right to vent their spleen. That's not supporting in any human sense

In Yantorno's case, here's a guy getting paid every week, no need to play but was still miserable as sin and that affected his self belief. It is reported when he moved to Chester that he spent his time at home reading posts such as on .net where posters were offering opinions such as 'Should never have signed him, waste of a wage, never good enough for Hibs hence why he's not playing etc.

McCann had a similar problem and the fans did get on his back on the pitch as he played on with an injury, and he suffered. Whether or not professional footballers can take certain levels of abuse doesn't justify/condone the abuse nor does it help the situation.

So the next part of the discussion is:

1. Why do supporters (in this case, Hibs supporters) willingly assist the team's decline by slaughtering them on and off the pitch?

2. Returning to the OP, why when we've spent money on bringing in a widely agreed better standard of playing and coaching personnel, do we still deliver the same Hibsesque results as we've done year in year out with the odd exception, for the last 30+ years?

I agree with what you say to a certain point however IMO the abuse or barracking on here or at ground at the level its at now has absoloutley zero effect or part to play in were the club is or going too.

For me its only an issue if its only at Hibs, its not, its at everyclub therefore its not a factor at all.

California-Hibs
23-09-2009, 04:36 PM
Cant be bothered reading through this whole thread, started reading the first page but then i got bored. Heres my feelings..

We have the RIGHT to have high expectations at Hibs, that being a 3rd place finish and a good run in the cups every year! Folk who have been saying we are similar to the likes of Motherwell etc...GET A GRIP!
Now i know theres a Well fan whos been posting on this thread, and mate, dont you for one second think your club is on par with Hibs!
Lets start with the attendances we get everyweek compaired to Motherwell, Kilmarknock, Hamilton, Falkirk etc etc. We get TRIPLE the amount of fans EVERY WEEK, than these clubs do! They turn up at their stadiums each week and sit with around 3,000-5,000 fellow supporters!
We on the other hand NEVER have less than 10,000 at a league home game. This is one of the main reasons i put us well above these teams outside the OF, Hearts and Aberdeen. Attendances bring in money, and therefore we bring in a hell of alot more money coming in each week than these other teams. We also sell players for BIG money, something that other clubs just simply dont do, because they dont produce the stars we do!
Ah i could give many more reasons why us as Hibs supports should have high expectations, the list is quite big! We are a big club folks. Lets have some ambition and be positive!

The_Todd
23-09-2009, 04:40 PM
Cant be bothered reading through this whole thread, started reading the first page but then i got bored. Heres my feelings..

We have the RIGHT to have high expectations at Hibs, that being a 3rd place finish and a good run in the cups every year! Folk who have been saying we are similar to the likes of Motherwell etc...GET A GRIP!
Now i know theres a Well fan whos been posting on this thread, and mate, dont you for one second think your club is on par with Hibs!
Lets start with the attendances we get everyweek compaired to Motherwell, Kilmarknock, Hamilton, Falkirk etc etc. We get TRIPLE the amount of fans EVERY WEEK, than these clubs do! They turn up at their stadiums each week and sit with around 3,000-5,000 fellow supporters!
We on the other hand NEVER have less than 10,000 at a league home game. This is one of the main reasons i put us well above these teams outside the OF, Hearts and Aberdeen. Attendances bring in money, and therefore we bring in a hell of alot more money coming in each week than these other teams. We also sell players for BIG money, something that other clubs just simply dont do, because they dont produce the stars we do!
Ah i could give many more reasons why us as Hibs supports should have high expectations, the list is quite big! We are a big club folks. Lets have some ambition and be positive!

We're a medium sized SPL club - Celtc and Rangers (like it or not) are the only "big" clubs in Scottish football.

When we go around calling other clubs "wee" teams we sound like Yams.

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 04:43 PM
We're a medium sized SPL club - Celtc and Rangers (like it or not) are the only "big" clubs in Scottish football.

When we go around calling other clubs "wee" teams we sound like Yams.

I disagree, we are the next stage down from OF, we are a big club the OF are massive, sound like Yams or not we get double the crowds Falkirk etc get we have the right to say we are bigger, Hearts have a higher average but not by enough for them to be saying we are small, thats just banter.

We are far larger than half the clubs in the SPL

The_Todd
23-09-2009, 04:48 PM
I disagree, we are the next stage down from OF, we are a big club the OF are massive, sound like Yams or not we get double the crowds Falkirk etc get we have the right to say we are bigger, Hearts have a higher average but not by enough for them to be saying we are small, thats just banter.

We are far larger than half the clubs in the SPL

I'll meet you halfway at medium-large.

Captain Trips
23-09-2009, 04:53 PM
I'll meet you halfway at medium-large.

This isnt Mcdonalds :greengrin

California-Hibs
23-09-2009, 05:30 PM
I disagree, we are the next stage down from OF, we are a big club the OF are massive, sound like Yams or not we get double the crowds Falkirk etc get we have the right to say we are bigger, Hearts have a higher average but not by enough for them to be saying we are small, thats just banter.

We are far larger than half the clubs in the SPL

:top marks:agree:

BEEJ
23-09-2009, 09:21 PM
Returning to the OP, why when we've spent money on bringing in a widely agreed better standard of playing and coaching personnel, do we still deliver the same Hibsesque results as we've done year in year out with the odd exception, for the last 30+ years?
Because it's the Hibs supporters to blame - every last one of them, whether at the ground or on Hibs online forums! Mea culpa.

So.... :Ummm: do I win the prize?

Speedway
23-09-2009, 09:42 PM
Because it's the Hibs supporters to blame - every last one of them, whether at the ground or on Hibs online forums! Mea culpa.

So.... :Ummm: do I win the prize?

Well done, neither cutting nor funny.

BEEJ
23-09-2009, 10:00 PM
Well done, neither cutting nor funny.
That is the point of your OP, though.

Motherwell fans apparently:

> have lower expectations
> never barrack their players or criticise them online
> are steady individuals, neither up nor down

and this is a key factor in their team's early success this season.

Or have I misunderstood?

One Day Soon
23-09-2009, 10:37 PM
I think I'm going to apply to join the rationalists.


That's the best selection of cliques I've ever seen offered on the board. Brilliant!

Speedway
24-09-2009, 07:07 AM
That is the point of your OP, though.

Motherwell fans apparently:

> have lower expectations
> never barrack their players or criticise them online
> are steady individuals, neither up nor down

and this is a key factor in their team's early success this season.

Or have I misunderstood?

You've misunderstood.

Captain Trips
24-09-2009, 07:08 AM
I find the barracking point totally ridiculous on reflection, I mean it happens everywhere at every club its got nothing to do with progress or where we are at.

Lets say it did, so while we are barracking our number 5, the other teams fans are doing the same thing to one of their own. So theres the leveller, but there is no need for a leveller as its not an issue.

I dunno if anyone thinks we are worse and what proof there is, certainly if we are any worse and its well known it hasnt stopped several players from this league joining us.

Speedway
24-09-2009, 12:43 PM
I find the barracking point totally ridiculous on reflection, I mean it happens everywhere at every club its got nothing to do with progress or where we are at.

Lets say it did, so while we are barracking our number 5, the other teams fans are doing the same thing to one of their own. So theres the leveller, but there is no need for a leveller as its not an issue.

I dunno if anyone thinks we are worse and what proof there is, certainly if we are any worse and its well known it hasnt stopped several players from this league joining us.

Okay, let's try it from another angle. Let's say the other team's fans are getting tore into their own number 5 and we are getting tore into our number 5. Let's now say that both number 5's are genuinely crap.

Let's now say that the other team continue on as they are and we decide to get right behind our hapless number 5 to try and encourage him to improve. Let's say we do this for each game and each player who is not doing the business on the park but yet still getting picked.

Over the course of a season, do you think that our team would benefit from the supporters doing this, worsen from the supporters doing this or no discernable difference either way?

vahibbie
24-09-2009, 01:01 PM
Okay, let's try it from another angle. Let's say the other team's fans are getting tore into their own number 5 and we are getting tore into our number 5. Let's now say that both number 5's are genuinely crap.

Let's now say that the other team continue on as they are and we decide to get right behind our hapless number 5 to try and encourage him to improve. Let's say we do this for each game and each player who is not doing the business on the park but yet still getting picked.

Over the course of a season, do you think that our team would benefit from the supporters doing this, worsen from the supporters doing this or no discernable difference either way?
Oh for God's sake.
What do you say to a player after his pass shoots 10 yds past it's intended target for the umpteenth time.....well done, good try, you'll get it next time:bitchy:
At the basic level we are paying these guys to do something for us, which is entertain us. If they continually fail to do so surely we have a right to tell them. If a plumber fitted your sink upside down I'm sure you would let him know.....and if he made the same mistake again, well work it out.
BTW - I'm pretty sure a lot of threads on here concerning Yantorno were actually demanding that he did start/play.

Speedway
24-09-2009, 02:58 PM
Oh for God's sake.
What do you say to a player after his pass shoots 10 yds past it's intended target for the umpteenth time.....well done, good try, you'll get it next time:bitchy:
At the basic level we are paying these guys to do something for us, which is entertain us. If they continually fail to do so surely we have a right to tell them. If a plumber fitted your sink upside down I'm sure you would let him know.....and if he made the same mistake again, well work it out.
BTW - I'm pretty sure a lot of threads on here concerning Yantorno were actually demanding that he did start/play.

Cool, as we were then. It's served us so well up to now.

sean
24-09-2009, 03:42 PM
i respect your opinions speedway and i think i understand what you are saying in terms of constantly hounding our players.

but i really do feel that its no worse at hibernian FC than any other club in the SPL.

I grant you that young men such as hanlon, stevenson and mcann would take a bit time to get used to receiving abuse for poor performances..players such as ian murray, stokes, miller and mcbride who have played for a whole host of high profile clubs should be able to handle shouts from the stands after a few years in the game

and finally who ever is suggesting that motherwell FC are bigger than Hibernian FC is being quite simply stupid. HIbs are bigger in every way,shape and form,although this gives us no god given right to finish higher than motherwell in the league or beat them on every occasion.

i would suggest that Rangers and celtic are of course the biggest, followed by hibs,hearts,aberdeen and probarlly dundee united and then the rest of the clubs.

Captain Trips
24-09-2009, 04:30 PM
Okay, let's try it from another angle. Let's say the other team's fans are getting tore into their own number 5 and we are getting tore into our number 5. Let's now say that both number 5's are genuinely crap.

Let's now say that the other team continue on as they are and we decide to get right behind our hapless number 5 to try and encourage him to improve. Let's say we do this for each game and each player who is not doing the business on the park but yet still getting picked.

Over the course of a season, do you think that our team would benefit from the supporters doing this, worsen from the supporters doing this or no discernable difference either way?

I dont think it needs looked at any other way, the way the Hibs fans treat their players is no different from any other club, its of no consequence to the direction Hibs have been on or are going. The thing is above some fans will support a player some will give them stick thats how it works, if a player cannot find the ability within themselves no matter whats cominf from stands then they maybe need to look elsewhere, but as I have stated its all really a nothing.

Speedway
24-09-2009, 05:12 PM
I dont think it needs looked at any other way, the way the Hibs fans treat their players is no different from any other club, its of no consequence to the direction Hibs have been on or are going. The thing is above some fans will support a player some will give them stick thats how it works, if a player cannot find the ability within themselves no matter whats cominf from stands then they maybe need to look elsewhere, but as I have stated its all really a nothing.

This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.

In the league and the cups, smaller teams have regular done better than us. Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes.

So let's say that there's no foundation to my original argument, how do posters diagnose continued underachievement for this 'big club' of ours despite all personnel everywhere changing every few years?

Albanian Hibs
24-09-2009, 05:39 PM
Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is :wink:

As for the jist of your post I think you're prity spot on. Hibs and every other "City" Club outside the Old Firm need to realise, well you're naw a big club, certainly naw bigger anymore than the major town clubs (ala Motherwell when it comes to the season. Look at Aberdeen for example, and laugh at McGhee has he left as he was losing our stars, but since when has that ever caused Motherwell or a half decent manager problems at Motherwell.

Not to mention, we have the better manager who has a proven record of playing football with results and not the media bull that Hughes was some Brazilesqu playing Manager of Falkirk, nor have we signed Falkirk's midfield which was woeful last season...

Bottom line, Motherwell fans expected anything between 4th and 11th would do this season - some expected relegation but that was never ever going to happen with Falkirk, Hamilton and St Johnstone in the league while Hibs fans I guess expected 3rd or 4th which lets be honest your history in the SPL shows you have as much right as about 4 or 5 other clubs to have so yes fans can probably take some blame...

You are having a laugh mate. Hibs are and will always be a bigger club on and off the field than your Motherwells, Falkirks, Hamiltons, Dundee Utds, etc.

BEEJ
24-09-2009, 10:35 PM
Returning to the OP, why when we've spent money on bringing in a widely agreed better standard of playing and coaching personnel, do we still deliver the same Hibsesque results as we've done year in year out with the odd exception, for the last 30+ years?


Because it's the Hibs supporters to blame - every last one of them, whether at the ground or on Hibs online forums! Mea culpa.

So.... :Ummm: do I win the prize?


Well done, neither cutting nor funny.


That is the point of your OP, though.

Motherwell fans apparently:

> have lower expectations
> never barrack their players or criticise them online
> are steady individuals, neither up nor down

and this is a key factor in their team's early success this season.

Or have I misunderstood?


You've misunderstood.


This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.
So I was right then! :greengrin

Speedway
24-09-2009, 10:38 PM
So I was right then! :greengrin

No you were wrong:

1. By suggesting that I was blaming 'every last one' of the Hibs support and

2. By claimng things I'd never said about the Motherwell support in the spirit of facetiousness.


But you know that fine well don't you BEEJ?

BEEJ
24-09-2009, 11:03 PM
No you were wrong:

1. By suggesting that I was blaming 'every last one' of the Hibs support and

2. By claimng things I'd never said about the Motherwell support in the spirit of facetiousness.


But you know that fine well don't you BEEJ?
OK, I was stretching the point a little. :wink: But the general premise was correct.

FWIW I think it's an overly simplistic theory, borne out of your (understandable) frustration at some of the more extreme comments that were flying about this site on Tuesday night.

Without doubt there is seldom an animated atmosphere at ER these days, one which is so positive for the Hibs players that it actually intimidates our opponents. I don't know what that is down to but suspect that it's many years of underachievement at ER that has conditioned supporters to expect the next gaff or c0ck-up to arrive in a match any time soon. Disappointment sems to be always just around the corner.

But that alone would not (for me anyway) explain 30+ years of underachievement; indeed I think it could just as easily be argued that the causal relationship is the other way round.

Twa Cairpets
24-09-2009, 11:12 PM
This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.

In the league and the cups, smaller teams have regular done better than us. Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes.

So let's say that there's no foundation to my original argument, how do posters diagnose continued underachievement for this 'big club' of ours despite all personnel everywhere changing every few years?

Speedway, you are making some massive assumptions here:
the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement. No. This isnt true. The biggest single constant factor is that two teams dominate in Scotland, and that they win a massive percentage of the available silverware. The others pick up scraps as a result of a good season or a fortunate cup draw. The league has been out of question for 20+ years, which leaves cups which are subject to luck as much as anything.

Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes. Again, not true. in the nineties we were relegated and involved in play-offs for relegation. Now we are pretty much established as a top six team. Progress? I think so. Maybe not earth shattering but I prefer where we are now to where we were.

The big club/wee club thing is frankly rather distastefully jamboesque, but in Scottish terms, it is indisputable that we are one of the big clubs by turnover and crowds. Forty league clubs, and Hibs are in the top five by both these criteria - this makes us de facto a big club.

And as for your final question, I dont know the answer - if there is one. But im fairly sure it isnt politely putting a positive spin on ineptitude. Thats fine (and appropriate) when you're coaching kids. But these are well paid, professional sportsmen we're talking about here taking part in a game that is entertaining precisley because it can make otherwise rational people experience ludicrous highs and lows of emotions. The minute we stop cheering, shouting, holding our heads in despair and yes, occasionally shouting "get yer finger oot" is the minute it dies as a sport.

Crazyhorse
24-09-2009, 11:49 PM
This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.

In the league and the cups, smaller teams have regular done better than us. Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes.

So let's say that there's no foundation to my original argument, how do posters diagnose continued underachievement for this 'big club' of ours despite all personnel everywhere changing every few years?

Depends what you mean by underachievement. Hibs, Dons and Jambos have each won the league 4 times (though only two of them have won it
4 times in the 20th century and 3 times since WW2. Cups? Jambo's are a bit luckier. So the 2nd tier in scottish football have a fairly similarevel of achievement.
To be honest I can take the defeats the only thing I won't accept is if any player playing for Hibernian doesn't bust a gut playing for the team. All the great teams work harder than everone else, then the talent can make the difference to the scoreline.

Speedway
25-09-2009, 08:40 AM
OK, I was stretching the point a little. :wink: But the general premise was correct.

FWIW I think it's an overly simplistic theory, borne out of your (understandable) frustration at some of the more extreme comments that were flying about this site on Tuesday night.

Yes, I agree that it's overly simplistic and definitely borne out of frustration.

Without doubt there is seldom an animated atmosphere at ER these days, one which is so positive for the Hibs players that it actually intimidates our opponents. I don't know what that is down to but suspect that it's many years of underachievement at ER that has conditioned supporters to expect the next gaff or c0ck-up to arrive in a match any time soon. Disappointment sems to be always just around the corner.

In my view, we condition ourselves in modern times. Player makes c0ck up, support groans, support lambasts said c0ck up and talks about it online for weeks, media trawl sites like this and pick up the stories, players and clubs get reputations, we buy the media and believe it, situation worsens.

But that alone would not (for me anyway) explain 30+ years of underachievement; indeed I think it could just as easily be argued that the causal relationship is the other way round.

Agreed.


Speedway, you are making some massive assumptions here:
the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement. No. This isnt true. The biggest single constant factor is that two teams dominate in Scotland, and that they win a massive percentage of the available silverware. The others pick up scraps as a result of a good season or a fortunate cup draw. The league has been out of question for 20+ years, which leaves cups which are subject to luck as much as anything.

It's not the dominant two that we're crashing out of cups too, nor costing us European qualification most of the time though. Hibsregularly slip up where our contemporaries (Arabs, Yams etc) don't - generally speaking.

Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes. Again, not true. in the nineties we were relegated and involved in play-offs for relegation. Now we are pretty much established as a top six team. Progress? I think so. Maybe not earth shattering but I prefer where we are now to where we were.

Cyclical though, We were top four under Miller in the nineties (?) so to be top six is just getting back to where we were and taking the better part of a decade to get there regularly.

The big club/wee club thing is frankly rather distastefully jamboesque, but in Scottish terms, it is indisputable that we are one of the big clubs by turnover and crowds. Forty league clubs, and Hibs are in the top five by both these criteria - this makes us de facto a big club.

In Scottish terms yes, in UK terms not by any stretch.

And as for your final question, I dont know the answer - if there is one. But im fairly sure it isnt politely putting a positive spin on ineptitude. Thats fine (and appropriate) when you're coaching kids. But these are well paid, professional sportsmen we're talking about here taking part in a game that is entertaining precisley because it can make otherwise rational people experience ludicrous highs and lows of emotions. The minute we stop cheering, shouting, holding our heads in despair and yes, occasionally shouting "get yer finger oot" is the minute it dies as a sport.

I don't know it either but I don't buy Carlsberg's 'we're no worse than anyone else so let's not examine how to improve' theory.

I accept irrational emotion is de facto, though I've stopped feeling it myself because you learn the crack after a while. It's the level, speed and severity of attack on here and in the stands especially which I believe is contributing to hindering our improvement on the pitch, even if it's only a small hinderance, it's still a hinderance.


Depends what you mean by underachievement. Hibs, Dons and Jambos have each won the league 4 times (though only two of them have won it
4 times in the 20th century and 3 times since WW2. Cups? Jambo's are a bit luckier. So the 2nd tier in scottish football have a fairly similarevel of achievement.
To be honest I can take the defeats the only thing I won't accept is if any player playing for Hibernian doesn't bust a gut playing for the team. All the great teams work harder than everone else, then the talent can make the difference to the scoreline.

What I mean by underachievement CrazyHorse is how often a 'big club' like Hibs take home any silverwear (currently once every 1.6 decades) and how often we lose out to 'smaller' opponents.

basehibby
25-09-2009, 10:43 AM
This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.

In the league and the cups, smaller teams have regular done better than us. Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes.

So let's say that there's no foundation to my original argument, how do posters diagnose continued underachievement for this 'big club' of ours despite all personnel everywhere changing every few years?

The fans can and do make a difference at times but to blame the support for the underachievement of generations of footballers is well wide of the mark IMO.
In fact I'd say that the equation works better in reverse - the support as a whole is less boisterous and noisy and the ever present moaners more voluble as a result, precisely because of the morale sapping effects of decades of underachievement.
So why the underachievement? Well the biggest factor, as pointed out above, is undoubtedly the continuing duopoly of the Ugly Sisters in Scottish football. But you could also add to that mis-management on a grand scale from the likes of Waugh and Duff and Gray. That mismanagement has thankfully now been consigned to the dustbin of history as the club is now as well run as it has ever been (in my memory anyway).
Looking forward, Hibs now have a chance to progress thanks to the firm foundations laid down by a decade plus of steady leadership. Whether the underachievement is turned into achievement on the park comes down to the efforts of the manager and the players - we as a support can help a little bit by getting behind them and doing our best to drive them on every week - only a little bit mind as the main part of the equation is the abilities and mentality of the players and the manager - but every little bit helps so if you asked me if it's worth making the effort then my answer would be a resounding YES!

scott7_0(Prague)
26-09-2009, 04:06 PM
Well Done Yogi, now lets get consistant.

BroxburnHibee
26-09-2009, 04:08 PM
Wonder if Ryehill will have a look in :devil:

TornadoHibby
26-09-2009, 05:22 PM
Wonder if Ryehill will have a look in :devil:

Bet TQM is lying low tonight! :wink:

California-Hibs
26-09-2009, 05:27 PM
No no no, wait there, some Hibs fans think Gannon is some kind of Messiah and that we made a simply shocking move going for Hughes instead of him :confused:
HUGHES 1-0 GANNON :thumbsup:

Killiehibbie
26-09-2009, 05:30 PM
Wonder if Ryehill will have a look in :devil:

Still waiting on him saying how much he wants on Motherwell to finish above us.

bobbyhibs1983
26-09-2009, 05:30 PM
Well Done Yogi, now lets get consistant.



Consistant with regards to hibs?:confused:
when has that ever happened?:wink:

Good result today, but remeber the last few weeks though, it seems we play well and lose(smeltic),play badly one week and win(st johnstone ) and then play badly and lose(cup vs st johnstone) and play well and win(today),
so consistant and hibs dont go together that well me thinks

hibbybrian
26-09-2009, 05:41 PM
Consistant with regards to hibs?:confused:
when has that ever happened?:wink:

Good result today, but remember the last few weeks though, it seems we play well and lose(smeltic),play badly one week and win(st johnstone ) and then play badly and lose(cup vs st johnstone) and play well and win(today),
so consistant and hibs dont go together that well me thinks

consistently inconsistent :greengrin

scott7_0(Prague)
26-09-2009, 05:59 PM
Consistant with regards to hibs?:confused:
when has that ever happened?:wink:

Good result today, but remeber the last few weeks though, it seems we play well and lose(smeltic),play badly one week and win(st johnstone ) and then play badly and lose(cup vs st johnstone) and play well and win(today),
so consistant and hibs dont go together that well me thinks


consistently inconsistent :greengrin

The McLeish days, McLeish kept the same core of players or back bone and then placed his pawns around them........

Hibby Bairn
26-09-2009, 05:59 PM
Maybe just needing time for new team/players to gel and for the two "quality" buys to get match fit? :agree: