Predicatability

[Phil D. Rolls]

Team plays well, a couple of signings get made, Hibs.net full of posts about how unstoppable we are, how great the manager is, how great the board is.

Team gets gubbed, Hibs.net full of posts about sacking the manager, emptying the players, the board failing to invest.

Just an observation, but maybe at times we take a very short term view. Even worse one that isn't based on evidence but on gut feelings.

[erskine-hibby]

Team plays well, a couple of signings get made, Hibs.net full of posts about how unstoppable we are, how great the manager is, how great the board is.

Team gets gubbed, Hibs.net full of posts about sacking the manager, emptying the players, the board failing to invest.

Just an observation, but maybe at times we take a very short term view. Even worse one that isn't based on evidence but on gut feelings.

The evidence is that we have, for once, spent good money on players and have still been knocked out of the cup in the first round by a team we should, with all respect, be wiping the floor with. Not only that but the evidence is also that despite our spending we have failed to put in one decent performance. Yes, the results have been better but we have lost to Hamilton and should have lost to St Johnstone in the league also. Yogi has had plenty of time to sort our defensive problems out, but has seen fit to fill the squad with mediocre midfielders from his last failed team. Had this been Mixu then this place would have gone into meltdown by now. I am not saying that for one minute Yogi should go, but he must address our defensive problems sooner rather than later so that the good players he has brought in can have the influence he wants from them:agree:

[sunshine1875]

Team plays well, a couple of signings get made, Hibs.net full of posts about how unstoppable we are, how great the manager is, how great the board is.

Team gets gubbed, Hibs.net full of posts about sacking the manager, emptying the players, the board failing to invest.

Just an observation, but maybe at times we take a very short term view. Even worse one that isn't based on evidence but on gut feelings.

:agree:

Last night was grim, but still an improvement on the Mixu era. The last few games highlight how far we need to improve before we can sit back and enjoy games confident that we are going to win them.

Since the Mowbray era, we have had teams that seem to think they just need to turn up and they will win. Yet we always struggle against teams that press us and are in our faces. We need to work out a way of overcoming such teams. Barcelona, ManU to name two teams are overloaded with skill and are constantly pressing teams to the point that the opposition are overrun. We are not doing that.

Against Hamilton, I think we thought we only needed to turn up and we would win. Against Saints on Saturday, there was an improvement though only three pieces of skill got us the win. Last night, I think they all felt we had the game won after 45 secs. A harsh lesson, but you only learn from your own mistakes.

[CRAZYHIBBY]

the problem is the defence is *****, if yogi could have sorted it during the summer then im sure he would have done. I think its more a case of losing out on the players he wanted or clubs unwilling to sell, He must make good use of the next transfer window or i think his days will be numbered

[Phil D. Rolls]

the problem is the defence is *****, if yogi could have sorted it during the summer then im sure he would have done. I think its more a case of losing out on the players he wanted or clubs unwilling to sell, He must make good use of the next transfer window or i think his days will be numbered

That's a worry, because changing the manager every year is a fast track to relegation.

[erskine-hibby]

the problem is the defence is *****, if yogi could have sorted it during the summer then im sure he would have done. I think its more a case of losing out on the players he wanted or clubs unwilling to sell, He must make good use of the next transfer window or i think his days will be numbered

He didn't make good use of the last one IMHO.
His cards are on the table, unless we can find a decent centre back who is without a club, so he must find a solution with the players we have...and fast!

[Ell_Chrisso]

Team plays well, a couple of signings get made, Hibs.net full of posts about how unstoppable we are, how great the manager is, how great the board is.

Team gets gubbed, Hibs.net full of posts about sacking the manager, emptying the players, the board failing to invest.

Just an observation, but maybe at times we take a very short term view. Even worse one that isn't based on evidence but on gut feelings.

:top marks

Said the exact same things when Yogi was brought in.
Too many people in here getting farrrr to excited by Yogi's arrival, and that we were going to be miles better this year.
It was all far to pre-mature. And Hibs fans need to learn not to EXPECT anything from our team.

They seriously need to get there a*se in gear!!!

[Phil D. Rolls]

He didn't make good use of the last one IMHO.
His cards are on the table, unless we can find a decent centre back who is without a club, so he must find a solution with the players we have...and fast!

Or we see it a two season project, and wait for Barr and Arfield for free, because their club were too stupid to take the money when it was available. As it says elsewhere - it won't happen overnight.

I really really wish we were better.

[erskine-hibby]

Or we see it a two season project, and wait for Barr and Arfield for free, because their club were too stupid to take the money when it was available. As it says elsewhere - it won't happen overnight.

I really really wish we were better.

A bit dire thinking i agree, but it only takes one season to be relegated. Not that i think for one minute we will, but if we do not sort out the defence then we will not be competing in the top half of the league, but rather scrapping it out at the lower end.
We all knew Jones was for the off so Yogi should have made this his number one priority and not filling the team with midfielders from his last failed club.

[PeeJay]

:agree:

Last night was grim, but still an improvement on the Mixu era.

I find that an astonishing statement in light of last night's game: what improvement would you be meaning? IMO that was every bit as bad as anything under MIXU. St. Johnstone made us look extremely poor: there was no organisation in the Hibs team, no fight, no team spirit, a complete lack of any basic footballing skill, first touch ability was non-existent we failed to hold and pass the ball around, Bamba, in particular, was unable to find any Hibs players with "passes", we as a team resorted to hoofball in many instances, Stack persisted in kicking long balls to a team that was unable to win a single header all evening; they controlled us for most of the game, chased us down, made it impossible for us to do anything, basically we were back to being a "soft touch" last night - the performance of every single Hibs player was absolutely abysmal!

I don't think we as fans should just shrug it off with "it takes time to build": by going out last night we have lost a valuable source of income for the club and I feel that the manner in which we did so is a major cause for concern.

[Iain G]

Bloody hell, we are only a handfull of games into the new season. It is going to take time for Yogi to change this team around, he has pretty much said as much.

He has moved on a lot of players, and is trying to up the quality we have as well as shore up the squad at the same time as a quick fix.

Would expect more to go in January and more to come in, am glad he didn't jump at any old defenders mind you and hope he takes his time to get the right people into key positions at the back.

I fear its another up and down transitional season, but thats what happend when we change managers, it takes time for them to bed their own team in.

There is still enough if Mixu's underperforming team still here with the same attitude issues, it's going to take Yogi time to get their heads sorted or get them out of the door.

We are a work in progress at the moment and way too early to be calling for the heads of anyone.

[Captain Trips]

There are 2 knee jerk reactions going on 1 to the cup result and 1 to Yogi/Tactics etc etc.

Firstly I think the 1st Knee Jerk is justafied, we can win 2 trophies in any season if we are being real and the CIS has been pretty good for us, IMO thats a large portion of what we can win gone. I accept not winning the CIS if we meet the OF on way but not at home to SJ whom man for man we are better than, on top of that we played and beat them 4 days before and there were warnings then.

Posts about dissapointment on this ruining a good part of season are IMO right, it has this leaves us with our old friend the scottish cup:greengrin. I really hope we can however push on in the SPL and now enjoy the SPL matches until the window.

I think the problems we have are fixable and Yogi has put too much faith in the abilities of Hogg, Murray and Bamba as CBs. None of those combinations are ommanding or strong enough. If Yogi does not bring in a leader or make serious effort too then I would wonder about him.

Its hard just now to get in a player as we can only get out of contract but we should be looking, how are the youths is there anybody? Arfield is not required IMO that money if needed should go towards a quality CB who can lead or maybe even 2 CBs, Murray and Bamba should be in midfield.

I would play 3 at back but thats me, the point is I think we are right to be furious/disgusted or whatever for the CIS but on the whole we should give Yogi a chance.

I see people talk of long term plans, we cant have long term plans on the Park, yes off it but not on it we have to work season to season, we are a selling club and making plans with a squad when you dont know who will be there in next year is hard.

May I add that I would welcome Arfield but as the 2nd signing after a CB, Arfield would improve team but there are parts of team in more need.

[Speedway]

The evidence is that we have, for once, spent good money on players and have still been knocked out of the cup in the first round by a team we should, with all respect, be wiping the floor with. Not only that but the evidence is also that despite our spending we have failed to put in one decent performance. Yes, the results have been better but we have lost to Hamilton and should have lost to St Johnstone in the league also. Yogi has had plenty of time to sort our defensive problems out, but has seen fit to fill the squad with mediocre midfielders from his last failed team. Had this been Mixu then this place would have gone into meltdown by now. I am not saying that for one minute Yogi should go, but he must address our defensive problems sooner rather than later so that the good players he has brought in can have the influence he wants from them:agree:

All both of them?


:agree:

Last night was grim, but still an improvement on the Mixu era. The last few games highlight how far we need to improve before we can sit back and enjoy games confident that we are going to win them.

Since the Mowbray era, we have had teams that seem to think they just need to turn up and they will win. Yet we always struggle against teams that press us and are in our faces. We need to work out a way of overcoming such teams. Barcelona, ManU to name two teams are overloaded with skill and are constantly pressing teams to the point that the opposition are overrun. We are not doing that.

Against Hamilton, I think we thought we only needed to turn up and we would win. Against Saints on Saturday, there was an improvement though only three pieces of skill got us the win. Last night, I think they all felt we had the game won after 45 secs. A harsh lesson, but you only learn from your own mistakes.

I give you Stranraer in the late nineties to suggest that the malaise goes back even further than that.


He didn't make good use of the last one IMHO.His cards are on the table, unless we can find a decent centre back who is without a club, so he must find a solution with the players we have...and fast!

How so? Where the evidence to suggest that he didn't target a high number of defenders of a better quality than what we currently have, only to have them turn round and inform us that they wouldn't dream of signing for a raphael like Hibs?


A bit dire thinking i agree, but it only takes one season to be relegated. Not that i think for one minute we will, but if we do not sort out the defence then we will not be competing in the top half of the league, but rather scrapping it out at the lower end.
We all knew Jones was for the off so Yogi should have made this his number one priority and not filling the team with midfielders from his last failed club.

Again, how do you know he didn't and how do you fill a squad with two players?

[erskine-hibby]

All both of them?



I give you Stranraer in the late nineties to suggest that the malaise goes back even further than that.



How so? Where the evidence to suggest that he didn't target a high number of defenders of a better quality than what we currently have, only to have them turn round and inform us that they wouldn't dream of signing for a raphael like Hibs?



Again, how do you know he didn't and how do you fill a squad with two players?

You don't fill the whole team with 2 players, but you almost fill the midfield with 2. Were you inspired then by these 2 signings?? i know i wasn't. Was there any indication that we were even looking for a replacement for Jones? If there was i must have missed it. So to reverse you question where is the evidence that he did target replacements for Jones?? Given the time he has had to sort this out, and with the priority it should have been, surely there would have been some sort of movement that would have been documented if he had, no??? I know that Hibs like to keep their business dealings quiet but this one must have been ultra secret, even quieter than Vlads last submarine.

[brog]

Team plays well, a couple of signings get made, Hibs.net full of posts about how unstoppable we are, how great the manager is, how great the board is.

Team gets gubbed, Hibs.net full of posts about sacking the manager, emptying the players, the board failing to invest.

Just an observation, but maybe at times we take a very short term view. Even worse one that isn't based on evidence but on gut feelings.

Agree entirely but I think Yogi missed an opportunity last night. IMO, & based on all differing opinions on this board I would think we have a pool of at least 20 players who can be regarded as 1st teamers. Last night the following did not start; Maka, Hogg, Benji, Zouma, Nish, Stevenson, Galbraith, Byrne, Cregg & of course the injured McCann.
Most people agreed that 3-0 flattered us in the extreme on Sat. We only had 3 shots on target! By sending out the same team Yogi gives the impression he was satisfied with Sat's performance. He could have used cup to freshen team up, try something different & had a genuine excuse if things went wrong. Instead we have a shocker, the doom'ngloomers are out in force & I'm in a state of depression!
PS, whether it's Murray or McCormack we should not play a left footer at right back, it doesn't work & it's not fair on the player, in particular McCormack.

[Love the Green]

:wink:
:agree:

Last night was grim, but still an improvement on the Mixu era. The last few games highlight how far we need to improve before we can sit back and enjoy games confident that we are going to win them.

Since the Mowbray era, we have had teams that seem to think they just need to turn up and they will win. Yet we always struggle against teams that press us and are in our faces. We need to work out a way of overcoming such teams. Barcelona, ManU to name two teams are overloaded with skill and are constantly pressing teams to the point that the opposition are overrun. We are not doing that.

Against Hamilton, I think we thought we only needed to turn up and we would win. Against Saints on Saturday, there was an improvement though only three pieces of skill got us the win. Last night, I think they all felt we had the game won after 45 secs. A harsh lesson, but you only learn from your own mistakes.


How excactly was it and improvement..???
I am no MIxu lover so please do not think that.

1. duff keeper
2 young yes but poor full backs.
3.Central defence a joke
4.midget clones in midfield, who have no strenghth. height,tackling ability, passing skills or presence.
5.Goalscorers but nobody to lead the line.

How is this better than last season??

"keep the faith":wink:

[Speedway]

You don't fill the whole team with 2 players, but you almost fill the midfield with 2. Were you inspired then by these 2 signings?? i know i wasn't. Was there any indication that we were even looking for a replacement for Jones? If there was i must have missed it. So to reverse you question where is the evidence that he did target replacements for Jones?? Given the time he has had to sort this out, and with the priority it should have been, surely there would have been some sort of movement that would have been documented if he had, no??? I know that Hibs like to keep their business dealings quiet but this one must have been ultra secret, even quieter than Vlads last submarine.

Well, we were in for Darren Barr and we made enquiries for a free agent 'German Defender' which most interpreted to be Moritz Volz. We also went to Arsenal to get this central defender on loan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A5vard_Nordtveit

He was given a choice of a loan at Hibs or a loan at Nuremburg and chose the latter.

Then we tried for another Arsenal lad called Luke Ayling on loan http://www.arsenal.com/reserves-youth/players/luke-ayling That deal didn't happen and I don't know why.

Hughes also refered to 'a few doors have been slammed in our faces' Again, I don't know that any of these concerned defenders and I'm not saying that the defenders that we had been known to target would have been the answer. I am saying that Yogi made it his priority.

[BryanV]

You know things must be bad when even Erskine Hibs is being negative.
I was concerned that we did not bring in anyone at the back in the transfer window but was reasonably happy with the majority of the signings and delighted with that of Stokes. In my opinion Bamba and Murray were our two best players last season but I fear that won't be the case this year if they are played at centre back. These things take time.

[erskine-hibby]

Well, we were in for Darren Barr and we made enquiries for a free agent 'German Defender' which most interpreted to be Moritz Volz. We also went to Arsenal to get this central defender on loan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A5vard_Nordtveit

He was given a choice of a loan at Hibs or a loan at Nuremburg and chose the latter.

Then we tried for another Arsenal lad called Luke Ayling on loan http://www.arsenal.com/reserves-youth/players/luke-ayling That deal didn't happen and I don't know why.

Hughes also refered to 'a few doors have been slammed in our faces' Again, I don't know that any of these concerned defenders and I'm not saying that the defenders that we had been known to target would have been the answer. I am saying that Yogi made it his priority.

Who does Darren Barr play for again?

Making enquieries and actually going for a player are 2 different things and to say that a few doors have been slammed in our face is a cop out IMHO. I still see no evidence that replacing Jones has been a priority.

[erskine-hibby]

You know things must be bad when even Erskine Hibs is being negative.
I was concerned that we did not bring in anyone at the back in the transfer window but was reasonably happy with the majority of the signings and delighted with that of Stokes. In my opinion Bamba and Murray were our two best players last season but I fear that won't be the case this year if they are played at centre back. These things take time.

Touche:wink:

And it's erskine-hibby, not Erskine Hibs:greengrin

[sunshine1875]

Opinions, eh!


:wink:


How excactly was it and improvement..???
I am no MIxu lover so please do not think that.

1. duff keeper
2 young yes but poor full backs.
3.Central defence a joke
4.midget clones in midfield, who have no strenghth. height,tackling ability, passing skills or presence.
5.Goalscorers but nobody to lead the line.

How is this better than last season??

"keep the faith":wink:

Last night we had periods in the game when there was creativity, movement and a goal threat. Last season with Mixu, we had none of that. The constant between Mixu's reign and last night was that our workrate was poor and we were blown away by a team that were in our face. As I said, we have to work to adapt to these situations.

The other constants as you say are:

Poor Goalkeeper - but my confidence would be shot if you have to take the stick our goalies get from our fans.
Poor Fullbacks - but Hanlon/McCormack are better than Stevenson/DVZ
Central Defence - but Jones/Hogg were not without their problems. Murray/Bamba have had one good game and one bad game.
Midfield - but the guys we have brought in (Miller/McBride/Cregg) have more presence (excluding Murray/Bamba that are now defenders) and creativity than last seasons personel.
Strikers - I would say that a Stokes/Riordan/Benji/Nish/Galbraith frontline is better than a Nish/Fletcher/Riordan/Johanson/O'Brien frontline.

I am convinced that when Yogi sorts out our workrate and application then there will be less occasions like last night.

Keep the faith, Support the team:wink:


I find that an astonishing statement in light of last night's game: what improvement would you be meaning? IMO that was every bit as bad as anything under MIXU. St. Johnstone made us look extremely poor: there was no organisation in the Hibs team, no fight, no team spirit, a complete lack of any basic footballing skill, first touch ability was non-existent we failed to hold and pass the ball around, Bamba, in particular, was unable to find any Hibs players with "passes", we as a team resorted to hoofball in many instances, Stack persisted in kicking long balls to a team that was unable to win a single header all evening; they controlled us for most of the game, chased us down, made it impossible for us to do anything, basically we were back to being a "soft touch" last night - the performance of every single Hibs player was absolutely abysmal!

I don't think we as fans should just shrug it off with "it takes time to build": by going out last night we have lost a valuable source of income for the club and I feel that the manner in which we did so is a major cause for concern.

The improvement is that last night we were more creative than the Mixu era. Everything you state was a problem last season, but the difference is that there were games that we played with 3 strikers and still created SFA.

Last night our workrate and application was wrong. That makes it two games out of seven where it has been poor. It does take time unless you are buying top notch players which we will never be able to do.

[Mibbes Aye]

You don't fill the whole team with 2 players, but you almost fill the midfield with 2. Were you inspired then by these 2 signings?? i know i wasn't. Was there any indication that we were even looking for a replacement for Jones? If there was i must have missed it. So to reverse you question where is the evidence that he did target replacements for Jones?? Given the time he has had to sort this out, and with the priority it should have been, surely there would have been some sort of movement that would have been documented if he had, no??? I know that Hibs like to keep their business dealings quiet but this one must have been ultra secret, even quieter than Vlads last submarine.

Don't know about Jones EH. I wasn't particularly enthused about Cregg or McBride in all honesty when they signed. Nevertheless (and although he was wayward in the extreme last night) McBride seems to be a good signing - generally always making himself available, moving the ball on and covering for the likes of the FBs pushing up. I thought he excelled in that role on Saturday and it gives a platform for the rest of the team to move up. I think Miller could potentially be our best signing but for the formation we're employing, it's between him and McBride as to who is most important IMO.

FWIW I think we have to consider exactly what it is we're trying to do in replacing Jones. I don't believe he was the kind of player Hughes would want at CH in all honesty and I don't think it's impossible to find someone with better distribution and technique while still having an aerial presence. Bamba and Murray, when playing well, both do that to an extent and they're not out-and-out CBs. That was their second game as a partnership so I'm happy to give them time. They're both decent players and while I would be more comfortable with signing a CH, I do think Murray and Bamba have some potential as a pairing.

[Walter]

At the end of the day, we need the boys 'hunting in packs' for the ball, and winning it.

I always liked it when JC said that, because its what I always thought, I just don't understand why that isnt what I see on the park, its so simple.

[Exiled Hibby]

Re those that criticised Yogi earlier in this thread for not identifying problem and signing a new centre back - my view (and I have no source except my own opinion) is that he put his eggs in one basket - Darren Barr.
To do that he must have been very confident he could get him- perhaps a few wee chats before leaving Falkirk.
For their own reasons, Falkirk wouldnt let him go just now - as they are entitled to do. However, I would be shocked if the January window doesnt bring an announcement of a pre-contract agreement or transfer for a nominal fee.
As I said, nothing other than my opinion.

[Speedway]

Who does Darren Barr play for again?

Making enquieries and actually going for a player are 2 different things and to say that a few doors have been slammed in our face is a cop out IMHO. I still see no evidence that replacing Jones has been a priority.

He's not going to be used to 'fill the midfield' wherever he's from. :wink:

[Bayern Bru]

The long and short of it is, Yogi is not a miracle worker. He's still working with a lot of players who were under Mixu (and from what we saw when he was in charge, there's a hell of a lot of work to be done).

Hibs are third in the league currently and we're trying to play football for the most part. Yeah, we were pretty howfin' last night but all in all the current situation shouldn't be a cause for concern IMO.

It's certainly ludicrous to suggest emptying Hughes - he appears to have the dressing room in the palm of his hand, unlike Mixu.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The long and short of it is, Yogi is not a miracle worker. He's still working with a lot of players who were under Mixu (and from what we saw when he was in charge, there's a hell of a lot of work to be done).

Hibs are third in the league currently and we're trying to play football for the most part. Yeah, we were pretty howfin' last night but all in all the current situation shouldn't be a cause for concern IMO.

It's certainly ludicrous to suggest emptying Hughes - he appears to have the dressing room in the palm of his hand, unlike Mixu.

I think the problem with Mixu is that he had good enough players, but couldn't get them to play.

[Jim44]

Or we see it a two season project, and wait for Barr and Arfield for free, because their club were too stupid to take the money when it was available. As it says elsewhere - it won't happen overnight.

I really really wish we were better.

Barr, Arfield, Cregg, McBride, Stokes and Hughes. Call me parrochial but I'm just a wee bit nervous about the Falkirk connection. :worried: :greengrin

[Onceinawhile]

The evidence is that we have, for once, spent good money on players and have still been knocked out of the cup in the first round by a team we should, with all respect, be wiping the floor with. Not only that but the evidence is also that despite our spending we have failed to put in one decent performance. Yes, the results have been better but we have lost to Hamilton and should have lost to St Johnstone in the league also. Yogi has had plenty of time to sort our defensive problems out, but has seen fit to fill the squad with mediocre midfielders from his last failed team. Had this been Mixu then this place would have gone into meltdown by now. I am not saying that for one minute Yogi should go, but he must address our defensive problems sooner rather than later so that the good players he has brought in can have the influence he wants from them:agree:

No we weren't
But we didn't

[ahibby]

Mixu didn't have the midfield we have now (the current one looking more talented). He also didn't have Stokes but Fletcher who didn't appear to be able to score for us unless it was laid on a plate in front of an empty goal. I thought Mixu's side was harder to beat than the current side though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Barr, Arfield, Cregg, McBride, Stokes and Hughes. Call me parrochial but I'm just a wee bit nervous about the Falkirk connection. :worried: :greengrin

I don't think Falkirk were as good when they lost Russel Latapy. Like you, I question whether some of these guys are overrated. That said, I have quite like McBride.

[greenlex]

Who does Darren Barr play for again?


In the Scotland set up. Take it you would be displeased with his signng for the cabbage?