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Mikey
17-09-2009, 07:36 AM
........challenging for a place in European competition"

So says Scott Lindsay........

http://sport.scotsman.com/spl/No-wage-cap-at-Hibernian.5654444.jp

Dibben
17-09-2009, 07:51 AM
Good piece... I love how you have the Yams commenting about our 'poor' finances!!!

I really hope he was being ironic - somehow I doubt it!!!

BH.

Hank Schrader
17-09-2009, 07:57 AM
Good piece... I love how you have the Yams commenting about our 'poor' finances!!!

I really hope he was being ironic - somehow I doubt it!!!

BH.

As at 31 July 2008 Hearts were insolvent to the tune of £15,000,000 and carrying an overall debt of over £30,000,000. The auditors also qualifed their accounts. They have absolutely no reason to question Hibs financial state when the stark truth is their own club are in tatters. Plums.

Back on topic, Hibs continue to move in the right direction with another set of positive results and the continued strengthening of the playing squad. :top marks

Dibben
17-09-2009, 08:01 AM
As at 31 July 2008 Hearts were insolvent to the tune of £15,000,000 and carrying an overall debt of over £30,000,000. The auditors also qualifed their accounts. They have absolutely no reason to question Hibs financial state when the start truth is their own club are in tatters. Plums.

Back on topic, Hibs continue to move in the right direction with another set of positive results and the continued strengthening of the playing squad. :top marks

:agree:

Tick, tock...

BH.

matty_f
17-09-2009, 08:46 AM
........challenging for a place in European competition"

So says Scott Lindsay........

http://sport.scotsman.com/spl/No-wage-cap-at-Hibernian.5654444.jp

And to be fair to them, their actions with the players we have brought in stand up against this statement, IMHO.:agree:

Craig_in_Prague
17-09-2009, 09:04 AM
And Finally - No wage cap!! :thumbsup:

This is the only way to improve quality or quantity.

Let the manager work with a playing budget, and not a limit on 1x player.

Everything is positive at the moment, let's hope that pishy performance on Sunday will be wiped away from the memory by a fine performance and win on Sat. Although I realise Hughes needs plenty more time. I just also feel optimistic in the short term.

PaulSmith
17-09-2009, 09:05 AM
Prefer this article myself: http://sport.scotsman.com/spl/Recent-signings-proof-of-Hibs39.5654424.jp

Also note:

Lindsay explained that while a portion of the Fletcher fee had been used to turn the loss into profit, the cut-off date of 31 July pre-dated subsequent instalments made by Burnley towards the striker's £3.5m transfer

blackpoolhibs
17-09-2009, 09:38 AM
So we finally have confirmation that some players will be earning considerably more than others, i have been told many times on here, that this would cause disharmony amongst the squad, and its not a good way to go about things. Why would the club do this?:confused::devil:

Andy74
17-09-2009, 09:41 AM
And Finally - No wage cap!! :thumbsup:

This is the only way to improve quality or quantity.

Let the manager work with a playing budget, and not a limit on 1x player.

Everything is positive at the moment, let's hope that pishy performance on Sunday will be wiped away from the memory by a fine performance and win on Sat. Although I realise Hughes needs plenty more time. I just also feel optimistic in the short term.

To be fair its not new, Collins talked about having flexibility in the budget and I've considered for some time that we operate on an overall budget as opposed to player limits.

The difference is we seem to be using it a bit more wisely now! It's been a wise move to work with smaller squad of people who are all with a shout of playing and contributing. Well, maybe Lewis Stevenson excepted now! looks like the first division or lower beckons for him now.

Andy74
17-09-2009, 09:42 AM
So we finally have confirmation that some players will be earning considerably more than others, i have been told many times on here, that this would cause disharmony amongst the squad, and its not a good way to go about things. Why would the club do this?:confused::devil:

I think we've been doing it for a while. it does need to be done carefully though for the issues you mention as if those on the wages are not justifying it the rest soon want the same.

Sergio sledge
17-09-2009, 09:53 AM
Prefer this article myself: http://sport.scotsman.com/spl/Recent-signings-proof-of-Hibs39.5654424.jp

"We have spent close to £1 million on acquiring talent in the past year, in transfer fees alone," said the Hibs chief. "It is now close to three years in succession we have done that."

Apart from Zemmama, Jones and Riordan, can any of this close to £3m spent be classed as value for money?

It's great that the club are doing this, backing the managers to such an extent. Pity the previous 2 managers wasted so much money! Hopefully Hughes's signing of Stokes will not be a waste!

"There have been staff pay reviews, pay freezes, and unfortunately we have had to reduce the head count off the park, the retail store being one. The executive directors have all taken pay reductions as of 1 August 2009 – we feel we need to do it."

TQM will be pleased......:wink:

Craig_in_Prague
17-09-2009, 09:55 AM
To be fair its not new, Collins talked about having flexibility in the budget and I've considered for some time that we operate on an overall budget as opposed to player limits.

The difference is we seem to be using it a bit more wisely now! It's been a wise move to work with smaller squad of people who are all with a shout of playing and contributing. Well, maybe Lewis Stevenson excepted now! looks like the first division or lower beckons for him now.

Ah, So that explains how we lured Kerr from Motherwell :faf:

Andy74
17-09-2009, 09:59 AM
Ah, So that explains how we lured Kerr from Motherwell :faf:

Indeed!:greengrin

Phil D. Rolls
17-09-2009, 10:00 AM
Objectives should be: Specific Measurable Achievable Realistic and Time based.

That statement is neither specific or time based. Becuase it is neither of those, it can't be measured, and if it can't be measured then how can it be realistically achieved? In short it is a crock, and we are being treated like idiots.

I think we need to be a bit braver than wooly statements like Lindsays. What is the "top end of the League"? Surely "top three" or "top six" would give us a clearer idea where we are supposed to be.

As it stands, there is too much ambiguity in what we are being offered. If he can't give a clear vision of where Hibs are going, why is that? Does he think we are mugs or is he a coward.

We can't keep drifting like this.

RIP
17-09-2009, 10:05 AM
So we finally have confirmation that some players will be earning considerably more than others, i have been told many times on here, that this would cause disharmony amongst the squad, and its not a good way to go about things. Why would the club do this?:confused::devil:

Because it was the only way we could attract players? :dunno:

Mind you G - you have a point.

Remember how mightily p**ssed off Jones was when he discovered that Maka and AOB were earning maybe twice what he was taking home as a cup-winning captain!

Will big Colin be delighted that Stokesy is earning three?? times as much for being equally ineffective in front of goals but collecting a lot less bruises?

Time will tell

mim
17-09-2009, 10:11 AM
Objectives should be: Specific Measurable Achievable Realistic and Time based.

That statement is neither specific or time based. Becuase it is neither of those, it can't be measured, and if it can't be measured then how can it be realistically achieved? In short it is a crock, and we are being treated like idiots.

I think we need to be a bit braver than wooly statements like Lindsays. What is the "top end of the League"? Surely "top three" or "top six" would give us a clearer idea where we are supposed to be.
As it stands, there is too much ambiguity in what we are being offered. If he can't give a clear vision of where Hibs are going, why is that? Does he think we are mugs or is he a coward.

We can't keep drifting like this.

Lindsay's actual words:

"Merely being in the top-six is not our target. Our objective is to be competing at the top end of the league and to be challenging for a place in European competition. We also want the team to be competing in the latter stages of cups. We are not in a position to budget for winning cups, but we have seen all the benefits an extended cup run can bring."

IWasThere2016
17-09-2009, 10:16 AM
"We have spent close to £1 million on acquiring talent in the past year, in transfer fees alone," said the Hibs chief. "It is now close to three years in succession we have done that."

Apart from Zemmama, Jones and Riordan, can any of this close to £3m spent be classed as value for money?

It's great that the club are doing this, backing the managers to such an extent. Pity the previous 2 managers wasted so much money! Hopefully Hughes's signing of Stokes will not be a waste!

"There have been staff pay reviews, pay freezes, and unfortunately we have had to reduce the head count off the park, the retail store being one. The executive directors have all taken pay reductions as of 1 August 2009 – we feel we need to do it."

TQM will be pleased......:wink:

LONG LONG overdue - would be interesting to see details. Wonder if we'll still top of the league for Exec pay:income? :devil:

ahibby
17-09-2009, 10:17 AM
While I agree with your sentiments I think it is clear that top end implies 4th or above while 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th are regarded as being mid table. While I am being pedantic how about revamping the SMART objectives acronym to mean Specific Measurable Agreed Realistic and TimeBound. The reasoning behind this is that Achievalbe and Realistic are to similar in meaning. Alternatives might be Relevant and stick with Achievable.

IWasThere2016
17-09-2009, 10:19 AM
Objectives should be: Specific Measurable Achievable Realistic and Time based.

That statement is neither specific or time based. Becuase it is neither of those, it can't be measured, and if it can't be measured then how can it be realistically achieved? In short it is a crock, and we are being treated like idiots.

I think we need to be a bit braver than wooly statements like Lindsays. What is the "top end of the League"? Surely "top three" or "top six" would give us a clearer idea where we are supposed to be.

As it stands, there is too much ambiguity in what we are being offered. If he can't give a clear vision of where Hibs are going, why is that? Does he think we are mugs or is he a coward.

We can't keep drifting like this.

Indeed - a long term plan would be of more value and interest :cool2:

Does he say anything aboot the East?

blackpoolhibs
17-09-2009, 10:24 AM
Because it was the only way we could attract players? :dunno:

Mind you G - you have a point.

Remember how mightily p**ssed off Jones was when he discovered that Maka and AOB were earning maybe twice what he was taking home as a cup-winning captain!

Will big Colin be delighted that Stokesy is earning three?? times as much for being equally ineffective in front of goals but collecting a lot less bruises?

Time will tell

That could be true, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be anywhere near Miller and Stokes if we were paying £1.5K a week. Any player who is pissed that someone is earning more than them, should have either got a better agent, or played well enough to warrant a wage rise, although any wage rise would also entail a longer contract being signed.

As for Nish feeling aggrieved he's earning less than Stokes, perhaps when he's been sold in a £2m deal, his next club will feel a decent wage will be the only way they can entice him with, and his agent will get him that decent wage. Until such times, he can keep collecting the bruises.

Phil D. Rolls
17-09-2009, 10:49 AM
Lindsay's actual words:

"Merely being in the top-six is not our target. Our objective is to be competing at the top end of the league and to be challenging for a place in European competition. We also want the team to be competing in the latter stages of cups. We are not in a position to budget for winning cups, but we have seen all the benefits an extended cup run can bring."

The whole statement is full of empty words. "top-end", "challenging", "latter stages". They could mean anything. The "latter stages" could be anything from the third round on.

As for that about not budgeting for winning cups, what is he offering us there? We might be lucky enough to win a cup, but we can't really expect it.

Phil D. Rolls
17-09-2009, 11:05 AM
While I agree with your sentiments I think it is clear that top end implies 4th or above while 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th are regarded as being mid table. While I am being pedantic how about revamping the SMART objectives acronym to mean Specific Measurable Agreed Realistic and TimeBound. The reasoning behind this is that Achievalbe and Realistic are to similar in meaning. Alternatives might be Relevant and stick with Achievable.

Yeah the acronym can be taken different ways, depends on your interpretation. I don't think anything is clear from his statement, he has deliberately used words that cannot be used against him in future. By setting such wooly objectives he can't fail.

I am going to commit the ultimate sin here, and pay Hearts a compliment. It seems to me that when the FTB coined the phrase "third force" he set a bottom line for what is acceptable to that club. Ever since, they have been more succesful at achieving third spot than any other club.

I accept that it has been achieved at horrendous financial cost, and possibly the very existence of that institution is at stake. In addition we use it as a stick to beat them with when they don't achieve it, but at the end of the day at least it is an honest objective.

Lindsay might as well have said "our objective is to be very good at every challenge we undertake". All he has given is one of those stupid corporate mission statements like " we aim to deliver excellence to every one of our customers".

RoslinInstHibby
17-09-2009, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;2177425]Objectives should be: Specific Measurable Achievable Realistic and Time based.
QUOTE]


arrrgh you have just reminded me that my FJP is now due!!!!!

bighairyfaeleith
17-09-2009, 11:11 AM
That could be true, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be anywhere near Miller and Stokes if we were paying £1.5K a week. Any player who is pissed that someone is earning more than them, should have either got a better agent, or played well enough to warrant a wage rise, although any wage rise would also entail a longer contract being signed.

As for Nish feeling aggrieved he's earning less than Stokes, perhaps when he's been sold in a £2m deal, his next club will feel a decent wage will be the only way they can entice him with, and his agent will get him that decent wage. Until such times, he can keep collecting the bruises.

aye in the reserves please

andyhibs
17-09-2009, 11:13 AM
So we finally have confirmation that some players will be earning considerably more than others, i have been told many times on here, that this would cause disharmony amongst the squad, and its not a good way to go about things. Why would the club do this?:confused::devil:
i agree bh, i have been thinking for years that a wagecap is the way forward,to be honest i would and think others would be peeved of if other people were getting paid more to do the same job ,it doesnot take einstein to work out for example , if the total wagebill for the say 20 first team squad is 100k then all 20 get 5k, and not some get 2k some 6k others 3k etc, same applies to the 2nd team squad x amount per week with the incentive to get promoted through hard work to get in the first team squad, and visa-versa you dont want to get thrown out of the first team with bad performancies or disapline and lose money.

ancient hibee
17-09-2009, 01:56 PM
Simple Minded A**hole Reproducing Tosh (in my day) :greengrin

Jonnyboy
17-09-2009, 02:01 PM
The whole statement is full of empty words. "top-end", "challenging", "latter stages". They could mean anything. The "latter stages" could be anything from the third round on.

As for that about not budgeting for winning cups, what is he offering us there? We might be lucky enough to win a cup, but we can't really expect it.

AFAIK we have never budgeted for income from cups as it is not a guaranteed source and any figure would be based purely on guess work. Remember, it's Hibs we're talking about here so money from cup success is a ropey topic :greengrin

Andy74
17-09-2009, 02:03 PM
I was at a presentation from the Finance Director a while back and he said that they did have to make a guess for the budgets on cups so they budgeted to reach the quarter finals of each cup.

So, anything less is going to hit the budget and anything more is a bonus.

Jonnyboy
17-09-2009, 02:06 PM
The whole statement is full of empty words. "top-end", "challenging", "latter stages". They could mean anything. The "latter stages" could be anything from the third round on.

As for that about not budgeting for winning cups, what is he offering us there? We might be lucky enough to win a cup, but we can't really expect it.

Damned if he does ............. :confused:

Would you rather he said something like "We're putting plans in place to win the league and the cup" only for neither to happen. Then we'd get a whole thread on how stupid his words were.

:agree:

Big Frank
17-09-2009, 02:26 PM
Damned if he does ............. :confused:

Would you rather he said something like "We're putting plans in place to win the league and the cup" only for neither to happen. Then we'd get a whole thread on how stupid his words were.

:agree:

Agreed.

Immediately he states "top end of the table", I thought top 4, ""latter stages of cups"? Quarter finals onwards....

Seems fairly reasonable to me.

MSK
17-09-2009, 02:31 PM
Damned if he does ............. :confused:

Would you rather he said something like "We're putting plans in place to win the league and the cup" only for neither to happen. Then we'd get a whole thread on how stupid his words were.

:agree:Indeed..leave that pish tae the yams ..

Liberal Hibby
17-09-2009, 02:33 PM
[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;2177425]Objectives should be: Specific Measurable Achievable Realistic and Time based.
QUOTE]


arrrgh you have just reminded me that my FJP is now due!!!!!

Pedant alert:

The R stands for 'Relevant' - not 'realistic'. 'Realistic' and 'Achievable' effectively mean the same thing.

matty_f
17-09-2009, 02:35 PM
Pedant alert:

The R stands for 'Relevant' - not 'realistic'. 'Realistic' and 'Achievable' effectively mean the same thing.

It's adaptable - 'Realistic' is widely used as well.

Liberal Hibby
17-09-2009, 02:40 PM
It's adaptable - 'Realistic' is widely used as well.

Indeed - widely and wrongly used :wink:

TheEastTerrace
17-09-2009, 03:04 PM
Damned if he does ............. :confused:

Would you rather he said something like "We're putting plans in place to win the league and the cup" only for neither to happen. Then we'd get a whole thread on how stupid his words were.

:agree:

Indeed. :agree:

I think it would be folly to explicitly state what the objectives are. Internally, I'm sure the players all have their individual and team targets. In the crazy world of football, and sport in general for that matter, we've seen statements from managers and board members come back to haunt them. In this situation, it's a statement of ambition, without over-promising.

Bishop Hibee
17-09-2009, 03:26 PM
Agreed.

Immediately he states "top end of the table", I thought top 4, ""latter stages of cups"? Quarter finals onwards....

Seems fairly reasonable to me.

Sounds about right. Certainly with the CIS Cup being seeded, we should expect to be in the last 8. Given that our spending on wages and transfer fees is bettered only by rantic and possibly on a par with Dundee Utd, I think for once us fans have a right to expect a good season.

With Hibs though, I tend to expect disappointment :rolleyes:

Jack
17-09-2009, 05:13 PM
Objectives should be: Specific Measurable Achievable Realistic and Time based.

Scott isn't out to fill in his forward job description like a little brown nosing twerp or whatever as part of some smarmy piece of HR speak that came with the flotsam across the Atlantic. :jamboak:

He was giving an interview to a reporter from one of our prestigious national newspapers. :agree:

Remember guys these reports only have the verbal reasoning of a 8 year old. Scott would have to keep things very simple for him. :dummytit:

Woody1985
17-09-2009, 08:27 PM
The whole statement is full of empty words. "top-end", "challenging", "latter stages". They could mean anything. The "latter stages" could be anything from the third round on.

As for that about not budgeting for winning cups, what is he offering us there? We might be lucky enough to win a cup, but we can't really expect it.

Have you joined BH in a clique lately?

Everything okay cos you been a right miserable ****er lately! :greengrin

I'd say that top end is 3rd/4th. Cups QF or later.

Hibercelona
17-09-2009, 08:31 PM
We should be aiming for top spot every season IMO, whether it's realistic or not.

If i'm being honest, I get sick and tired of teams aiming for "3rd spot" each season.

I understand that its important to have realistic expectations.

But we should always be at least striving for the best.

Phil D. Rolls
17-09-2009, 08:56 PM
[QUOTE=hwuhibby;2177487]

Pedant alert:

The R stands for 'Relevant' - not 'realistic'. 'Realistic' and 'Achievable' effectively mean the same thing.

Relevant, smelephant. :greengrin


Have you joined BH in a clique lately?

Everything okay cos you been a right miserable ****er lately! :greengrin

I'd say that top end is 3rd/4th. Cups QF or later.

Aw, I didn't know you cared. It's just that I don't like people treating me like an idiot, and spraffing peesh like Lindsay has done seems like just that. Why can't they just tell us where the club is going, what the realistic/relevant objectives are?

(See what I did there?)

Other than that, I am very happy with Hibs. :agree:

Phil D. Rolls
17-09-2009, 08:58 PM
Scott isn't out to fill in his forward job description like a little brown nosing twerp or whatever as part of some smarmy piece of HR speak that came with the flotsam across the Atlantic. :jamboak:

He was giving an interview to a reporter from one of our prestigious national newspapers. :agree:

Remember guys these reports only have the verbal reasoning of a 8 year old. Scott would have to keep things very simple for him. :dummytit:

Sorry, but I thought that was exactly what he was doing with his empty words, that require the reader to place their own interpretation on them. I just thought I would criticise him using his own language.

(See Barker, 2002, The Tidal Model)

BEEJ
17-09-2009, 09:19 PM
Lindsay's actual words:

"Merely being in the top-six is not our target. Our objective is to be competing at the top end of the league and to be challenging for a place in European competition. We also want the team to be competing in the latter stages of cups. We are not in a position to budget for winning cups, but we have seen all the benefits an extended cup run can bring."


The whole statement is full of empty words. "top-end", "challenging", "latter stages". They could mean anything. The "latter stages" could be anything from the third round on.

As for that about not budgeting for winning cups, what is he offering us there? We might be lucky enough to win a cup, but we can't really expect it.
I understand him completely.

There is a big difference between setting out to win a cup competition, which a team does every time, and setting an annual budget for the season with assumptions that your team will, say, reach the QFs of one of the cup competitions.

The latter is about setting a central expectation for financial planning purposes. Anything less represents failure to meet financial and performance objectives; anything better is a bonus.

It's accountant speak. If you want visionary, world-domination type rhetoric there's always Vlad. :greengrin


AFAIK we have never budgeted for income from cups as it is not a guaranteed source and any figure would be based purely on guess work. Remember, it's Hibs we're talking about here so money from cup success is a ropey topic :greengrin
There has to be a budget assumption for cup competitions - they are too important to leave out of the equation.

No matter how difficult it may be to predict from year to year with the vagaries of who you draw at each round, management must set a realistic target and in some years the club will get a bonus while in a few they'll struggle to achieve it.


I was at a presentation from the Finance Director a while back and he said that they did have to make a guess for the budgets on cups so they budgeted to reach the quarter finals of each cup.

So, anything less is going to hit the budget and anything more is a bonus.
:agree: Precisely.

Phil D. Rolls
18-09-2009, 08:58 AM
Damned if he does ............. :confused:

Would you rather he said something like "We're putting plans in place to win the league and the cup" only for neither to happen. Then we'd get a whole thread on how stupid his words were.

:agree:

I would rather he just said what the club's medium and long term objectives are. The statement under discussion offers whatever the person reading it interprets it as.

Is he too unimaginative to tell fans of the club where he thinks Hibs should be, or is he too cowardly.

It seems to me that if Hearts talk ambiguous sh*te then it is OK to have a pop about them taking their supporters for a ride. However if it is our man who is at the ham, then we all close ranks, nod our heads sagely and spraff the same stuff that the BeLIEvers over the road do.

The man has told us nothing. It's all conjecture, as the variety of interpretations of his words on this site show. It's been worded so that no-one can call him a failure if it doesn't happen. I'd rather we aim for something and fail, rather than fail to try in the first place.

Big Frank
18-09-2009, 09:28 AM
I would rather he just said what the club's medium and long term objectives are. The statement under discussion offers whatever the person reading it interprets it as.

Is he too unimaginative to tell fans of the club where he thinks Hibs should be, or is he too cowardly.

It seems to me that if Hearts talk ambiguous sh*te then it is OK to have a pop about them taking their supporters for a ride. However if it is our man who is at the ham, then we all close ranks, nod our heads sagely and spraff the same stuff that the BeLIEvers over the road do.

The man has told us nothing. It's all conjecture, as the variety of interpretations of his words on this site show. It's been worded so that no-one can call him a failure if it doesn't happen. I'd rather we aim for something and fail, rather than fail to try in the first place.

Bonkers.

Your third paragraph is total nonsense.

Phil D. Rolls
18-09-2009, 09:48 AM
Bonkers.

Your third paragraph is total nonsense.

What evidence do you have for that?

DirtyDeeds
18-09-2009, 10:09 AM
Personally have no issues with the piece by SL. I think its very wise of him not to state detailed specific objectives for the meantime. We are in a period of change where a new manager has come in and is trying to revitalise both a team and support who have undeniably had that verve and passion alomost drained from them by previous management.

What I, and no doubt many others, believe we need right now is a period of stability in the management of the team. Should the CEO come out and make specific objectives (which would all like to believe is top 4, a cup final and europe every year) and these are eventually not achieved, we have created a stick with which to beat up the team manager and his staff. And as always, its the manager that will go. Because thats what too many of our idiot fans are like. Short term success. If its left vague, I feel it gives a longer time-scale for success and a longer time-scale for Hughes to implement the changes he wants to make throughout the club. Otherwise its going to be change after change on a yearly basis, just so some people on here can see a specific objective and bay for blood when it isnt immediately achieved. If we finish 5th or 6th this year, it'll be a bad one but i'll happily give Hughes another year or two to continue to build. Many many others wouldnt and this is our problem. Just my beliefs mind.

Caversham Green
18-09-2009, 10:15 AM
Objectives should be: Specific Measurable Achievable Realistic and Time based.

That statement is neither specific or time based. Becuase it is neither of those, it can't be measured, and if it can't be measured then how can it be realistically achieved? In short it is a crock, and we are being treated like idiots.

I think we need to be a bit braver than wooly statements like Lindsays. What is the "top end of the League"? Surely "top three" or "top six" would give us a clearer idea where we are supposed to be.

As it stands, there is too much ambiguity in what we are being offered. If he can't give a clear vision of where Hibs are going, why is that? Does he think we are mugs or is he a coward.

We can't keep drifting like this.

SL also said the objective was to be challenging for a place in European competition. By definition that means third or fourth place in the league, which is specific, measurable, achievable and realistic/relevant. As for time-based, surely he would have said "within the next n years" if he was not intending it to mean "immediately".

Bearing in mind this was a statement for public comsumption rather than an internal directive - which is where the SMART acronym is normally churned out by pointy-haired bosses - I'm not sure how much more you can expect from him. Can you give an example of what you would have said in his position?

Phil D. Rolls
18-09-2009, 10:24 AM
SL also said the objective was to be challenging for a place in European competition. By definition that means third or fourth place in the league, which is specific, measurable, achievable and realistic/relevant. As for time-based, surely he would have said "within the next n years" if he was not intending it to mean "immediately".

Bearing in mind this was a statement for public comsumption rather than an internal directive - which is where the SMART acronym is normally churned out by pointy-haired bosses - I'm not sure how much more you can expect from him. Can you give an example of what you would have said in his position?

He didn't say the club should qualify for Europe, he said it should be challenging for Europe. Everyone in the league is challenging for a place in Europe at the start of the season. It is you who have specified where we have to be at the end of the season, not Scott Lindsay. You can interpret his words to mean anything you want. Challenging means taking part, "we could be contenders", is that all we want to be.



The same goes for time-based, he didn't specify what the time will be, so we can spin his words to suit whatever we want.

All I expect from him is to be more specific about what the club is expected to achieve. As we have seen there is more than one way of interpreting his words. I think it is necessary in any aspect of life to have a specific goal to aim for, in sport I think it is essential. For a sports club, which expects people to pay money towards achieving its aims, I think it borders on fraudulent to be so circumspect about where we are going.

I would have said, "Hibernian will regard any season in which they do not qualify for Europe as a disappointment. If we fail to qualify for Europe for two seasons or more in succession, we will regard it as failure".

Caversham Green
18-09-2009, 11:01 AM
He didn't say the club should qualify for Europe, he said it should be challenging for Europe. Everyone in the league is challenging for a place in Europe at the start of the season. It is you who have specified where we have to be at the end of the season, not Scott Lindsay. You can interpret his words to mean anything you want. Challenging means taking part, "we could be contenders", is that all we want to be.



The same goes for time-based, he didn't specify what the time will be, so we can spin his words to suit whatever we want.

All I expect from him is to be more specific about what the club is expected to achieve. As we have seen there is more than one way of interpreting his words. I think it is necessary in any aspect of life to have a specific goal to aim for, in sport I think it is essential. For a sports club, which expects people to pay money towards achieving its aims, I think it borders on fraudulent to be so circumspect about where we are going.

I would have said, "Hibernian will regard any season in which they do not qualify for Europe as a disappointment. If we fail to qualify for Europe for two seasons or more in succession, we will regard it as failure".

I have to say, I think you're examining his words a bit too closely. I cartainly took his statement to mean what I've said in my previous post without thinking too hard about it and I would suggest the majority of others fans would have done likewise. You can be they will be brought up at the end of this season as proof of failure if we are unsuccessful.

I agree with your sentiments about having specific goals, but it is not necessary to make those specific goals public, particularly in an atmosphere like the SPL where a failure to achieve them will be jumped on by the press and opposition, which would engender unrest within the club and fans (unnecessarily IMO). On the other hand the club does have a duty to its supporters to make them aware of its aspirations.

Again, bear in mind that this statement was a broad public outline of the direction the club intends to take rather than a detailed statement of intent. In that respect it strikes me that SL's comments are bolder than any I've seen from our direct competitiors.

Jonnyboy
18-09-2009, 11:45 AM
I would rather he just said what the club's medium and long term objectives are. The statement under discussion offers whatever the person reading it interprets it as.

Is he too unimaginative to tell fans of the club where he thinks Hibs should be, or is he too cowardly.

It seems to me that if Hearts talk ambiguous sh*te then it is OK to have a pop about them taking their supporters for a ride. However if it is our man who is at the ham, then we all close ranks, nod our heads sagely and spraff the same stuff that the BeLIEvers over the road do.

The man has told us nothing. It's all conjecture, as the variety of interpretations of his words on this site show. It's been worded so that no-one can call him a failure if it doesn't happen. I'd rather we aim for something and fail, rather than fail to try in the first place.

Precisely FR. You interpret them one way and I interpret them another! Doesn't make me right and you wrong or vice versa :agree:

Big Frank
18-09-2009, 12:55 PM
What evidence do you have for that?


You correlate the nonsense that has been going on at the PBS, yes the PBS in the last 5 years with what Lindsay mentioned the other day.:confused::confused:

You honestly think they are even remotely in the same ball park :confused::faf:

Bonkers ah say.

BEEJ
18-09-2009, 01:43 PM
He didn't say the club should qualify for Europe, he said it should be challenging for Europe. Everyone in the league is challenging for a place in Europe at the start of the season. It is you who have specified where we have to be at the end of the season, not Scott Lindsay. You can interpret his words to mean anything you want. Challenging means taking part, "we could be contenders", is that all we want to be.

He also said in the same breath:

"Merely being in the top-six is not our target. Our objective is to be competing at the top end of the league.."

That clearly puts in context his comments about 'challenging for Europe'... as I suspect you well know. :greengrin

smurf
18-09-2009, 02:25 PM
I'm delighted to read these comments from Scott Lindsay. It is proof that the board has the same aspirations and objectives as the supporters.

They are realistic. Challenging at the top end of the SPL (which means 3rd or 4th and therefore European football) and looking at regular semi and final appearances in domestic cup competition.

The board are giving the manager the resources to do the job and must continue to do so. We the fans must do our bit by turning up (hopefully in increasing numbers as we've lost around 2000 these past few years).

And on the park the Manager has to deliver on the aspirations of the board and the fans.

He too shares them and he will.:greengrin

Phil D. Rolls
18-09-2009, 04:10 PM
I have to say, I think you're examining his words a bit too closely. I cartainly took his statement to mean what I've said in my previous post without thinking too hard about it and I would suggest the majority of others fans would have done likewise. You can be they will be brought up at the end of this season as proof of failure if we are unsuccessful.

I agree with your sentiments about having specific goals, but it is not necessary to make those specific goals public, particularly in an atmosphere like the SPL where a failure to achieve them will be jumped on by the press and opposition, which would engender unrest within the club and fans (unnecessarily IMO). On the other hand the club does have a duty to its supporters to make them aware of its aspirations.

Again, bear in mind that this statement was a broad public outline of the direction the club intends to take rather than a detailed statement of intent. In that respect it strikes me that SL's comments are bolder than any I've seen from our direct competitiors.

Fair comment, my own feeling is that it was deliberately ambiguous. I see your point though, he won't wriggle out of failure by relying on semantics.


Precisely FR. You interpret them one way and I interpret them another! Doesn't make me right and you wrong or vice versa :agree:

Thanks John, it's all about how you take it. I take it that there is a reluctance on the part of the board to commit the club to serious objectives.

They've relied on us trusting them up till now, I have to say that things are not bad and seem to be going in the right direction. But I would like firmer commitments on the stand for example.


You correlate the nonsense that has been going on at the PBS, yes the PBS in the last 5 years with what Lindsay mentioned the other day.:confused::confused:

You honestly think they are even remotely in the same ball park :confused::faf:

Bonkers ah say.

No I don't, but it would appear that the Hibs board and the Hearts owners are ploughing the same soil, because fans don't examine the words that are passed on to them closely enough. Fans set great stock by loyalty, and honesty and expect that from others - to businessmen these are merely concepts to be exploited.


He also said in the same breath:

"Merely being in the top-six is not our target. Our objective is to be competing at the top end of the league.."

That clearly puts in context his comments about 'challenging for Europe'... as I suspect you well know. :greengrin

I know how he'd like me to interpret it, and I know why he doesn't want to commit himself - he will get it flung in his face if we don't achieve the targets. I have been persuaded by arguments here though, that fans will not let him escape by playing on words though.

I can't possibly know what Scott Lindsay means by statements that are as ambiguous as those he made. Neither can other fans, unless they have spoken to the man himself. It bugs me that he doesn't have the confidence to set a proper objective.