BNP on Question Time

[Betty Boop]

Nick Griffin is to appear on Question Time, should be a lively debate. Things could get nasty! :greengrin

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6823364.ece

[da-robster]

The BBC can't win, if they don't let them on there biased and if they do there racists.

However I'm looking forword to Nick Grifffin getting shown up for the racist bigot he is.

[Frazerbob]

The BBC can't win, if they don't let them on there biased and if they do there racists.

However I'm looking forword to Nick Grifffin getting shown up for the racist bigot he is.

:agree:

I bet it gets record viewing figures for the programe. Hopefully they'll have some strong polititians to rip Griffin a new areshole and not let him hide behind the few popular policies that they pedal whilst hiding behind the evil, racist guff.

[Hibs Class]

In one of the programmes around the time of the recent Euro elections it got quite lively due to a BNP supporter in the audience, so one on the panel should be pretty interesting.

[GlesgaeHibby]

:agree:

I bet it gets record viewing figures for the programe. Hopefully they'll have some strong polititians to rip Griffin a new areshole and not let him hide behind the few popular policies that they pedal whilst hiding behind the evil, racist guff.

Viewing figures will be vastly inflated for this show, and I hope that can only be a good thing because he'll get shown up for the ****bag he is.

[hibsbollah]

Good decision to allow him on. Trying to fight fascism by stopping them speaking always seemed a bit counter-intuitive to me.

[Killiehibbie]

He will be shown up for what he is. I remember seeing him on newsnight a while back eloquent he is not.

[Gatecrasher]

:agree:

I bet it gets record viewing figures for the programe. Hopefully they'll have some strong polititians to rip Griffin a new areshole and not let him hide behind the few popular policies that they pedal whilst hiding behind the evil, racist guff.


thats the best thing you can do for folk like him, give him the air time and show the people what a twat he is.

[Future17]

Good decision to allow him on. Trying to fight fascism by stopping them speaking always seemed a bit counter-intuitive to me.

:agree:

As Reginald D Hunter said - discrimination is bad, even against racists.

[lyonhibs]

Great news - I just hope the rest of the panel is filled with decent, sharp minded people to put him to the sword and leave his wafer thin credibility in tatters.

Will definitely be tuning in :agree:

[Sir David Gray]

I agree with this for two reasons.

The first reason is, unfortunately, the BNP now has a foothold in British politics and as Question Time is a programme which covers political debate, I don't think the BBC has much option other than to have a BNP representative on their panel.

The second reason is what people have already highlighted. By giving the BNP a platform to air their views, it will hopefully show them up for what they really are and potential BNP voters, who aren't really racist thugs, will be put off from voting for them in future elections.

Good move, I think.

[Betty Boop]

A new arm of the BNP "The English Defence League"?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8239818.stm

[Phil D. Rolls]

Give 'em enough rope.

[lyonhibs]

A new arm of the BNP "The English Defence League"?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8239818.stm

They look like a bunch of dribbling cretins that had 1 too many pints of Carling, decided to get the St Georges Cross off the pub wall and go and try to find some of those "****in' immigrants" and cause some trouble.

Such people are parodies of human beings.

[Chuckie]

A new arm of the BNP "The English Defence League"?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8239818.stm

I'm against protests but I don't know how to show it.

[Betty Boop]

I'm against protests but I don't know how to show it.

Why are you against protests? :greengrin

[Killiehibbie]

They look like a bunch of dribbling cretins that had 1 too many pints of Carling, decided to get the St Georges Cross off the pub wall and go and try to find some of those "****in' immigrants" and cause some trouble.

Such people are parodies of human beings.

Where they not masquerading as 'The Casual Alliance' or something last month?

[richard_pitts]

The BNP have evolved - instead of "go home darkies" it's "rights for whites" - they look like New Labour and talk like the Lib Dems. Underneath, their message is still the same and their argument is still a load of guff. I think we have to evolve to deal with it and that means taking their argument on because whenever you don't, they claim you're running scared.:blah:

[fergal7]

The BNP have evolved - instead of "go home darkies" it's "rights for whites" - they look like New Labour and talk like the Lib Dems. Underneath, their message is still the same and their argument is still a load of guff. I think we have to evolve to deal with it and that means taking their argument on because whenever you don't, they claim you're running scared.:blah:

I see you are still jumping on the old bandwagon, after all, it might affect your income.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I read that the CRE, or whatever their new name is, is to challenge the BNP's membership criteria in court.

I reckon that is just going to make martyrs of the BNP. I think the CRE should be doing all it can to educate people about tolerance. Instead they might be accused of being intolerant to people who don't match their views.

Which, of course is why they were set up. But it just highlights the difficulty in maintaing freedom of choice, when there are people who seek to undermine that freedom.

[lyonhibs]

I see you are still jumping on the old bandwagon, after all, it might affect your income.

Which bandwagon is this?? The one that says that, no matter how you dress it up, the BNP are a bunch of unacceptable racists that thrive off the Daily Mail-style fear far too many "Middle Englanders" blindly display against anyone who comes from elsewhere with the wish to make something of their lives, and in doing so don't drink down "The Red Lion"??

If so, I'll jump on that bandwagon, with a big, cheesy grin on my face.

Or am I missing something?? :confused:

[fergal7]

Correct me if i am wrong but i was not talking to you. even if i was ..........

[lyonhibs]

Correct me if i am wrong but i was not talking to you. even if i was ..........

I know, apologies, I hadn't realised the thread had become a "behind closed doors" affair between yourself and Mr Pitts.

I'm still curious re: which particular bandwagon his post appears to be jumping on that you find unacceptable??

Unless it's the comparison of the BNP to either the Lib Dems or Labour, in which case I agree that that is a load of pash, but the underlying message that no matter how many ways the BNP try to "gentrify" their message, or try to make us believe that they aren't purely fixated on the Immigration Question, the facts remain what they are. Namely, that the BNP are borderline fascist filth, whose cringing embarrasment I look forward to viewing in HD, technicolour glory (hopefully) when this Question Time is aired.

[GC]

Correct me if i am wrong but i was not talking to you. even if i was ..........


You were posting on a public messageboard, if it was meant to be private, send a PM.

[Tazio]

The problem is that this won't actually make them look any more ridiculous.

They do have a right to appear on the BBC as they are, as previously mentioned, now a mainstream party. If Will Young can appear on QT as well as Green Party members then the leader of the BNP should.

However the viewers of QT will already have their political affiliations decided in the main. So they won't offend any more swing voters or convert any more.

I would be more concerned about him appearing on The One Show or This Morning as that is where their target voters will be.

[fergal7]

I know, apologies, I hadn't realised the thread had become a "behind closed doors" affair between yourself and Mr Pitts.

I'm still curious re: which particular bandwagon his post appears to be jumping on that you find unacceptable??

Unless it's the comparison of the BNP to either the Lib Dems or Labour, in which case I agree that that is a load of pash, but the underlying message that no matter how many ways the BNP try to "gentrify" their message, or try to make us believe that they aren't purely fixated on the Immigration Question, the facts remain what they are. Namely, that the BNP are borderline fascist filth, whose cringing embarrasment I look forward to viewing in HD, technicolour glory (hopefully) when this Question Time is aired.

I feel uncomfortable with Mr Pitts wanting to kill fascists but at the same time making a good living from the misery of immigrants

[fergal7]

You were posting on a public messageboard, if it was meant to be private, send a PM.

Whats your problem?

[GC]

Whats your problem?


No problem, you can't snap back at posters like you did though when they are questioning comments that you posted publicly though.

As I said if it was private and between you and him then send a PM.

[fergal7]

No problem, you can't snap back at posters like you did though when they are questioning comments that you posted publicly though.

As I said if it was private and between you and him then send a PM.

Mate.. when you get it tight from every angle you have to fight....

[The_Todd]

I feel uncomfortable with Mr Pitts wanting to kill fascists but at the same time making a good living from the misery of immigrants

Where did he says he wants to kill anybody?

I'm missing something, right?

[hibsbollah]

Where did he says he wants to kill anybody?

I'm missing something, right?

Fergals been at the Lady Nairne Minibar again. Another past lights out keyboard warrior:rolleyes:

[Dashing Bob S]

This can't be right, can it? :confused:

Seems to me that there is something going on between those parties only marginally linked (if at all) to this thread.

[Woody1985]

Has this been on yet?

I want to watch it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Seems to me that there is something going on between those parties only marginally linked (if at all) to this thread.

I thought so too, otherwise it's a rum do talking to other posters like that.

I'll get my halo.:offski:

[Betty Boop]

Even some of the families who lost loved ones on September 11th, question the official version of events. They have set up 911 Truth.org to demand a deeper investigation into the events which took place on that day.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633

[Woody1985]

Even some of the families who lost loved ones on September 11th, question the official version of events. They have set up 911 Truth.org to demand a deeper investigation into the events which took place on that day.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633

If you were in the towers and there was a plane just flew through the window ten minutes before would any of you stayed in the building FFS?

[steakbake]

I would be more concerned about him appearing on The One Show or This Morning as that is where their target voters will be.

I'd love to see Nick Griffin on the One Show.

Adrian: So, Nick, Tupperware - ever used it?

Griffin: Yes, occasionally. My wife uses it to store any left over food, sometimes we put it in the fridge, other times the freezer. Being the leader of a mainstream political party, I don't have much time on my hands. We used to use tupperware to store our party membership cards. I also use a tupperware box to take good old fashioned British Tea to Brussels because all you get over there is that lemony foreign muck.

Dom: Gotta make sure you get a top price for the tupperware though. There's a lot of unscrupulous agents around. I always check my tupperware agents against Tupperright, the UK's national authorised body of which any legitimate Tupperware agent is a member.

Griffin: Yes, always make sure your tupperware agent is whiter than white...

Nothing tells me more that I am one depressing step closer to the grave than the day before like the One Show does. It is like the lifestyle section of the Daily Mail/Daily Express in a mindless, visual, chewing-gum-for-your-eyes format. It's a daily countdown to our demise as a civilisation with it's banal segments of minor confused celebrities trying out regular "every-day life" problems, the misty-eyed and misplaced nostalgia for the good old days gone by and regular tips on how to avoid getting grifted by your fellow human beings. 'kin 'ell, it's dreary.

Having said that, this was good: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXgtttwEv80

[Sylar]

Even some of the families who lost loved ones on September 11th, question the official version of events. They have set up 911 Truth.org to demand a deeper investigation into the events which took place on that day.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633

Am I missing what this has to do with the BNP/Question Time part of this thread? I've not opened any of the links posted, so if the connection lies there, I apologise.

I also have some unresolved feelings around what happened that day, but some of the theories promoted by the 911Truth movement are a tad radical. It also strikes me that a lot of the theories are taken from video analysis of the day, as opposed to direct witnessing of events which took place - I was in New York and in close proximity to the Trade Centre when it was hit, and my memory of the day differs to the one offered by the conspiracy theorists such as those who produced the Zeitgeist video.

[Betty Boop]

Am I missing what this has to do with the BNP/Question Time part of this thread? I've not opened any of the links posted, so if the connection lies there, I apologise.

I also have some unresolved feelings around what happened that day, but some of the theories promoted by the 911Truth movement are a tad radical. It also strikes me that a lot of the theories are taken from video analysis of the day, as opposed to direct witnessing of events which took place - I was in New York and in close proximity to the Trade Centre when it was hit, and my memory of the day differs to the one offered by the conspiracy theorists such as those who produced the Zeitgeist video.

Whoops wrong thread! :blushie:

[degenerated]

Correct me if i am wrong but i was not talking to you. even if i was ..........


Whats your problem?

if you can't post reasoned debate, don't bother

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'd love to see Nick Griffin on the One Show.

Adrian: So, Nick, Tupperware - ever used it?

Griffin: Yes, occasionally. My wife uses it to store any left over food, sometimes we put it in the fridge, other times the freezer. Being the leader of a mainstream political party, I don't have much time on my hands. We used to use tupperware to store our party membership cards. I also use a tupperware box to take good old fashioned British Tea to Brussels because all you get over there is that lemony foreign muck.

Dom: Gotta make sure you get a top price for the tupperware though. There's a lot of unscrupulous agents around. I always check my tupperware agents against Tupperright, the UK's national authorised body of which any legitimate Tupperware agent is a member.

Griffin: Yes, always make sure your tupperware agent is whiter than white...

Nothing tells me more that I am one depressing step closer to the grave than the day before like the One Show does. It is like the lifestyle section of the Daily Mail/Daily Express in a mindless, visual, chewing-gum-for-your-eyes format. It's a daily countdown to our demise as a civilisation with it's banal segments of minor confused celebrities trying out regular "every-day life" problems, the misty-eyed and misplaced nostalgia for the good old days gone by and regular tips on how to avoid getting grifted by your fellow human beings. 'kin 'ell, it's dreary.

Having said that, this was good: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXgtttwEv80

:faf:

[richard_pitts]

Seems to me that there is something going on between those parties only marginally linked (if at all) to this thread.

If there is something going on someone had better tell me! :faf:

I'm guessing dear Feral doesn't like the fact I work for a race equality organisation and am thus "making a living off the misery of immigrants" when the fact is that I was making more money elsewhere before I joined said movement. Also if you read his previous "interesting" posts on immigrants you might understand why he doesn't like people like me :greengrin

If standing up for people who are by and large lacking in support makes me a bad person in the eyes of people like our dear poster, so be it. The fact the organisation I work for has been condemned by both Aamer Anwar and the BNP suggests it's doing something right imo :greengrin

[richard_pitts]

I feel uncomfortable with Mr Pitts wanting to kill fascists but at the same time making a good living from the misery of immigrants

Where did I say I wanted to kill fascists? :confused:

If you want to do me out of a job, stop making immigrants miserable :faf:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Looks like I'll be the only one to oppose this and defend 'No Platform-ism'. Oh, and attempt to get the thread back on track after that strange interlude...

Much in the same way that New Labour took the blueprint of the Clinton Democrats and applied them over here, Griffin and the BNP have studied Le Pen and the Front National's shift into the French mainstream and are now attempting to do the same. Essentially, 'getting their feet under the table' and gaining representation and influence in State institutions. If this goes ahead (and it's not definite as I understand it) the BBC will be helping them in this goal - giving them a hand up. They've already given them far, far more coverage than they've deserved so the idea that it's necessary based on their performance in the European elections is more than slightly disingenuous.

I've also always been slightly bemused by the 'let them hoist themselves by their own petard'/'allow them to be embarassed by someone or embarass themselves' line. It never seems to actually happen, does it? And I think there are a few reasons for this. The main one is that fascism is inherently antipathetic to reason and logic - that's sort of the point, it's all about 'the will', emotion, power, a philosophy of victimhood and an important, imagined, antagonistic enemy. It's practically impossible to argue with them on their or your own terms - fascism completely insulates itself against reasoned or logical debate. To quote Griffin himself...

“The electors of Millwall did not back a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate.”

Griffin et. al. are not stupid (well, he is but not that stupid), they've learnt the lessons from their past very, very well. He will not let himself be exposed - so to speak - on a programme such as Question Time; it will be an invaluable chance for him to say whatever will further his and the B.N.P.'s cause and raise their profile even more. In fact, I'd say that the format of Question Time is pretty much the most perfect Griffin could imagine.

[--------]

Looks like I'll be the only one to oppose this and defend 'No Platform-ism'. Oh, and attempt to get the thread back on track after that strange interlude...

Much in the same way that New Labour took the blueprint of the Clinton Democrats and applied them over here, Griffin and the BNP have studied Le Pen and the Front National's shift into the French mainstream and are now attempting to do the same. Essentially, 'getting their feet under the table' and gaining representation and influence in State institutions. If this goes ahead (and it's not definite as I understand it) the BBC will be helping them in this goal - giving them a hand up. They've already given them far, far more coverage than they've deserved so the idea that it's necessary based on their performance in the European elections is more than slightly disingenuous.

I've also always been slightly bemused by the 'let them hoist themselves by their own petard'/'allow them to be embarassed by someone or embarass themselves' line. It never seems to actually happen, does it? And I think there are a few reasons for this. The main one is that fascism is inherently antipathetic to reason and logic - that's sort of the point, it's all about 'the will', emotion, power, a philosophy of victimhood and an important, imagined, antagonistic enemy. It's practically impossible to argue with them on their or your own terms - fascism completely insulates itself against reasoned or logical debate. To quote Griffin himself...

“The electors of Millwall did not back a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate.”

Griffin et. al. are not stupid (well, he is but not that stupid), they've learnt the lessons from their past very, very well. He will not let himself be exposed - so to speak - on a programme such as Question Time; it will be an invaluable chance for him to say whatever will further his and the B.N.P.'s cause and raise their profile even more. In fact, I'd say that the format of Question Time is pretty much the most perfect Griffin could imagine.


I agree. I can see him being all sweet reason and giving nothing away.

"Me, racist, David? You must be having a laugh. I'm standing up for the ordinary working man, me."

[Sir David Gray]

Looks like I'll be the only one to oppose this and defend 'No Platform-ism'. Oh, and attempt to get the thread back on track after that strange interlude...

Much in the same way that New Labour took the blueprint of the Clinton Democrats and applied them over here, Griffin and the BNP have studied Le Pen and the Front National's shift into the French mainstream and are now attempting to do the same. Essentially, 'getting their feet under the table' and gaining representation and influence in State institutions. If this goes ahead (and it's not definite as I understand it) the BBC will be helping them in this goal - giving them a hand up. They've already given them far, far more coverage than they've deserved so the idea that it's necessary based on their performance in the European elections is more than slightly disingenuous.

I've also always been slightly bemused by the 'let them hoist themselves by their own petard'/'allow them to be embarassed by someone or embarass themselves' line. It never seems to actually happen, does it? And I think there are a few reasons for this. The main one is that fascism is inherently antipathetic to reason and logic - that's sort of the point, it's all about 'the will', emotion, power, a philosophy of victimhood and an important, imagined, antagonistic enemy. It's practically impossible to argue with them on their or your own terms - fascism completely insulates itself against reasoned or logical debate. To quote Griffin himself...

“The electors of Millwall did not back a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate.”

Griffin et. al. are not stupid (well, he is but not that stupid), they've learnt the lessons from their past very, very well. He will not let himself be exposed - so to speak - on a programme such as Question Time; it will be an invaluable chance for him to say whatever will further his and the B.N.P.'s cause and raise their profile even more. In fact, I'd say that the format of Question Time is pretty much the most perfect Griffin could imagine.

I see what you are saying about giving them no platform etc. but I would disagree with you when you say that their appearance wouldn't damage/embarrass them.

If Nick Griffin gives a similar performance on QT to the one that he gave on Sky News on the night of his European election win, I believe that he will do untold damage to himself and his party.

He was ridiculed and torn apart by the Sky News presenter that night (I forget his name, Adam Boulton maybe? :dunno:) and he just came across as pathetic and ridiculous.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I see what you are saying about giving them no platform etc. but I would disagree with you when you say that their appearance wouldn't damage/embarrass them.

If Nick Griffin gives a similar performance on QT to the one that he gave on Sky News on the night of his European election win, I believe that he will do untold damage to himself and his party.

He was ridiculed and torn apart by the Sky News presenter that night (I forget his name, Adam Boulton maybe? :dunno:) and he just came across as pathetic and ridiculous.

I suppose a good example of the "give em enough rope" strategy was how they handled John Cormack's Protestant Action in the 30s. This guy used to write anti catholic letters to the newspapers, which they duly tidied up for him and published.

Eventually they got a bit fed up of the guy and just published his letters without any editing out his spelling mistakes and apalling grammar. It's said that when people saw how ignorant and inarticulate the guy actually was that they deserted the cause in droves and he disappeared from view.

The same thing could apply to the BNP. If they actually explain their policies, and are tested by common sense arguments, the bulk of their middle ground supporters would surely be too embarassed to support them.

On the other hand, if they are shot down in flames by what are seen as luvvy intellectuals, it could possibly strengthen their cause. A lot of people are more likely to identify with Nick Griffin than Stephen Fry. The type that come out with nonsense like "I know what it is I want to say, I just don't know how to say it".

[LiverpoolHibs]

I suppose a good example of the "give em enough rope" strategy was how they handled John Cormack's Protestant Action in the 30s. This guy used to write anti catholic letters to the newspapers, which they duly tidied up for him and published.

Eventually they got a bit fed up of the guy and just published his letters without any editing out his spelling mistakes and apalling grammar. It's said that when people saw how ignorant and inarticulate the guy actually was that they deserted the cause in droves and he disappeared from view.

The same thing could apply to the BNP. If they actually explain their policies, and are tested by common sense arguments, the bulk of their middle ground supporters would surely be too embarassed to support them.

On the other hand, if they are shot down in flames by what are seen as luvvy intellectuals, it could possibly strengthen their cause. A lot of people are more likely to identify with Nick Griffin than Stephen Fry. The type that come out with nonsense like "I know what it is I want to say, I just don't know how to say it".

But, as I understand it, Cormack and Protestant Action weren't fascists. Just mindless bigots, so I don't think the comparison applies.

Your final paragraph is exactly the sort of thing they now try and jump on at every opportunity. They've adopted this strange populist, anti-elitism along with some elements of Leftist rhetoric - from a party that called for troops to be deployed against NUM pickets during the Miner's Strike.

Annoyingly, this 'anti-elitism' is actually gaining them a pretty hefty support.

[Phil D. Rolls]

But, as I understand it, Cormack and Protestant Action weren't fascists. Just mindless bigots, so I don't think the comparison applies.

Your final paragraph is exactly the sort of thing they now try and jump on at every opportunity. They've adopted this strange populist, anti-elitism along with some elements of Leftist rhetoric - from a party that called for troops to be deployed against NUM pickets during the Miner's Strike.

Annoyingly, this 'anti-elitism' is actually gaining them a pretty hefty support.

They were pretty close to fascists, in that they preyed on people's insecurities by saying their problems were caused by outsiders. People who didn't look too deeply into things were swayed by their ill founded beliefs.

[Dashing Bob S]

If there is something going on someone had better tell me! :faf:

I'm guessing dear Feral doesn't like the fact I work for a race equality organisation and am thus "making a living off the misery of immigrants" when the fact is that I was making more money elsewhere before I joined said movement. Also if you read his previous "interesting" posts on immigrants you might understand why he doesn't like people like me :greengrin

If standing up for people who are by and large lacking in support makes me a bad person in the eyes of people like our dear poster, so be it. The fact the organisation I work for has been condemned by both Aamer Anwar and the BNP suggests it's doing something right imo :greengrin

Sorry Richard, didn't know the history. Well done and keep up the good work.

[richard_pitts]

Looks like I'll be the only one to oppose this and defend 'No Platform-ism'. Oh, and attempt to get the thread back on track after that strange interlude...

Much in the same way that New Labour took the blueprint of the Clinton Democrats and applied them over here, Griffin and the BNP have studied Le Pen and the Front National's shift into the French mainstream and are now attempting to do the same. Essentially, 'getting their feet under the table' and gaining representation and influence in State institutions. If this goes ahead (and it's not definite as I understand it) the BBC will be helping them in this goal - giving them a hand up. They've already given them far, far more coverage than they've deserved so the idea that it's necessary based on their performance in the European elections is more than slightly disingenuous.

I've also always been slightly bemused by the 'let them hoist themselves by their own petard'/'allow them to be embarassed by someone or embarass themselves' line. It never seems to actually happen, does it? And I think there are a few reasons for this. The main one is that fascism is inherently antipathetic to reason and logic - that's sort of the point, it's all about 'the will', emotion, power, a philosophy of victimhood and an important, imagined, antagonistic enemy. It's practically impossible to argue with them on their or your own terms - fascism completely insulates itself against reasoned or logical debate. To quote Griffin himself...

“The electors of Millwall did not back a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate.”

Griffin et. al. are not stupid (well, he is but not that stupid), they've learnt the lessons from their past very, very well. He will not let himself be exposed - so to speak - on a programme such as Question Time; it will be an invaluable chance for him to say whatever will further his and the B.N.P.'s cause and raise their profile even more. In fact, I'd say that the format of Question Time is pretty much the most perfect Griffin could imagine.

On the logical strength of your argument, they have an unbeatable electoral strategy. I hope not :grr:

The problem with the no platform approach is that it is being spun as part of the anti-elitist strategy to say "They don't want you to know the truth and it's all a left-wing conspiracy at the behest of Jews, Muslims and immigrants". The pond life has evolved and so must we.

Funnily enough the islamic fundamentalists take a similar approach to being kicked out of mosques. In much the same way as I think we should take their warped view of Islam on theologically, I would be confident of countering any guff the BNP come up with. Immigration threatens the NHS - the NHS would not function without immigrants etc.

I think obsessing about the BNP rather than just giving them their five minutes of fame, tearing their arguments to shreds and moving on is also likely to garner them far more publicity. They have a remarkable tendency not to get re-elected when people see them as cr*p and as far as I'm concerned the more exposure that gets the better.

[richard_pitts]

Sorry Richard, didn't know the history. Well done and keep up the good work.

No prob Bob and thanks for the compliment. I'm more used to criticism a la Fergal, :greengrin although I see he's been emptied. Not a great loss to Hibs.net methinks :duck:

[Betty Boop]

September 11th Mosque protest by the fascists. :bitchy:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6825354.ece

[The_Todd]

September 11th Mosque protest by the fascists. :bitchy:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6825354.ece

Interesting article here: “Islamophobia is the height of commonsense”

What? I mean, seriously, what? The word phobia can be described thus: phobia \pho"bi*a\ (f[=o]"b[-e]*[.a]) n. Any irrational and persistent fear, whether of a situation, activity, or object; a phobia typically leads to a strong desire to avoid the object of the phobia

Therefore an irrational fear is commonsense?

Idiots.

[LiverpoolHibs]

September 11th Mosque protest by the fascists. :bitchy:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6825354.ece

If it's anything like their other protests so far they'll be vastly outnumbered, get their heads kicked in and eventually have to retreat behind a police cordon. The old 'EDL' (read, BNP) do seem to be gluttons for punishment.

[Betty Boop]

Interesting article here: “Islamophobia is the height of commonsense”

What? I mean, seriously, what? The word phobia can be described thus: phobia \pho"bi*a\ (f[=o]"b[-e]*[.a]) n. Any irrational and persistent fear, whether of a situation, activity, or object; a phobia typically leads to a strong desire to avoid the object of the phobia

Therefore an irrational fear is commonsense?

Idiots. :agree: "Casuals United" and the "English Defence League" sounds charming! :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

Interesting article here: “Islamophobia is the height of commonsense”

What? I mean, seriously, what? The word phobia can be described thus: phobia \pho"bi*a\ (f[=o]"b[-e]*[.a]) n. Any irrational and persistent fear, whether of a situation, activity, or object; a phobia typically leads to a strong desire to avoid the object of the phobia

Therefore an irrational fear is commonsense?

Idiots.

The other thing I noticed is this "David Ashton, the leader of Harrow Council, said it was a “great shame” that both groups of demonstrators felt they had to import their “extreme views” into the borough"

Clearly being an 'anti-fascist' is now considered an 'extreme view'.:rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/11/rightwing-anti-fascist-protesters-riot

its all kicking off now apparently...

[LiverpoolHibs]

If it's anything like their other protests so far they'll be vastly outnumbered, get their heads kicked in and eventually have to retreat behind a police cordon. The old 'EDL' (read, BNP) do seem to be gluttons for punishment.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/11/rightwing-anti-fascist-protesters-riot

its all kicking off now apparently...

Looks like I was right!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8251598.stm

Video there including an interview with a hilariously stupid man.

[hibsdaft]

i just see a bunch of overly-exuberant kids falling for this inane provocation hook line and sinker

thats not anti-fascism its brain deadism.

doing the BNP's work for them.

[steakbake]

The other thing I noticed is this "David Ashton, the leader of Harrow Council, said it was a “great shame” that both groups of demonstrators felt they had to import their “extreme views” into the borough"

Clearly being an 'anti-fascist' is now considered an 'extreme view'.:rolleyes:

He's got to consider those potential BNP swing voters!

[Pete]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/11/rightwing-anti-fascist-protesters-riot

its all kicking off now apparently...

Nobody can take the moral high ground here.

For right wing nutters read white gangs who are pissed off at percieved social injustice.

for "anti facists" read asian gangs who are angry about social injustices.

It's an excuse for a gang related ruck that makes football hooliganism seem like small potatoes.

Young men have gang related, tribal fights...it's been happening since the year dot. FACT!

I don't think even the most engineered of brains can ever solve this problem....it's just the way it is.

[Woody1985]

How come there is no condemnation of the people running through the streets, overturning bins and wrecking fences etc etc?

It's said that the EDL are trying to provoke violence, there were about 20 of them that I seen guarded behind lots of police. Surely any civilised people can rise above that? Apparently not.

[Future17]

Nobody can take the moral high ground here.

For right wing nutters read white gangs who are pissed off at percieved social injustice.

for "anti facists" read asian gangs who are angry about social injustices.

It's an excuse for a gang related ruck that makes football hooliganism seem like small potatoes.

Young men have gang related, tribal fights...it's been happening since the year dot. FACT!

I don't think even the most engineered of brains can ever solve this problem....it's just the way it is.

:agree:

Slaves to testosterone and a lack of brain cells. Any political realism in this is diluted by footage of crowd members smiling and skipping jubilantly while filming their mates.

For once, I actually feel sorry for the police having to put up with this stupidity.

[Betty Boop]

Looks like I was right!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8251598.stm

Video there including an interview with a hilariously stupid man.

:agree:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Again, it looks like I’ll be the only one to defend the ‘indefensible’. :greengrin

I think the scenes I’ve seen and the first hand accounts (free of media distortion and ‘even handedness’) of what happened in Harrow are inspiring. Every single time the E.D.L. (ever increasingly being revealed as what they are - the foot soldiers of the B.N.P.) have attempted to put in a show of strength - reawakening the age-old fascist tactic of attempting to have control of the streets, something I’ll come back to - they have been drastically numbered and sent on their way with a bloody nose or at least damaged pride. I here’s hoping it continues until they finally get the message.

Fascist bloc activity is intended, as Hitler said and John Tyndall echoed, “to make the worm feel like the dragon”, I doubt there were too many of them feeling like dragons yesterday as they cowered in pubs and behind police lines. Throughout the 1930s and then the 1950s-80s, far-right groups were able to use the streets as ‘their’ territory with quasi-paramilitary groups intimidating any group not their own. Largely due to militant anti-fascism they haven’t been able to do this and so their efforts have been sublimated from the street to the polling booth - with some degree of success. However, it’s part of the ideology of fascism that it’s necessary to have a vanguard, militant presence on the streets no matter how well you do at the polls. The B.N.P. cannot be seen to have a direct presence amongst these groups and certain tags are now tarnished beyond reclamation (N.F., C.-18 etc.) thus the choice of slightly incongruous and unknown names such as the English Defence League and Casuals United. It makes it sound new, fresh and unblemished when in fact it is anything but. Simon Darby and other senior members in the B.N.P. have made a number of not-so-subtle hints about the division between traditional politics and street politics. Both need to be confronted. As it stands, it is literally impossible for the far-right to carry out the sort of actions they wish to carry out. Long may it be so.

As for ‘anti-fascists. Read Asian gangs’. Well no, don’t. Unsurprisingly given the area and the shockingly provocative nature of the event the vast majority of the counter-protestors were local Muslim youths. The Left (and other groups) weren't there in the sort of numbers they should have been, but they were present. But anyway, he most marginalised, threatened, derided and stigmatised section of British society saying “**** you, we’re not going to take it!”. Brilliant, I say. Maybe I’m alone.

Assuming that what people mean when they say things like, ‘That’s not antifascism, that’s brain-deadism. Doing the B.N.P’s work for them.’, is that people will see a large body of ‘marauding’ Asian youth and be driven into the arms of the fascists. Frankly, I think that’s complete bollocks. It buys into the idea that politics is only ever played out in the media and in the front rooms of middle-England; it isn’t. Politics isn’t, and never should be, about how things are going to be interpreted on the news stations.

As an aside, why is the Battle of Cable Street rightly lauded as an incredible act of popular anti-fascist action yet people can never be quick enough to condemn ‘each side as bad as the other’ when similar action takes place contemporarily? Genuine question.

And for the sake of clarity, not one police officer has, as far as I can see, been reported as suffering even minor injuries despite the apparent ultra-violence of the counter-protestors. Odd that.

¡No pasarán!

[Dashing Bob S]

I think the no platform stance has outlived its usefulness in the internet/video age. Many people are now alienated from politics because of the constant inane drivel spouted unremittingly from shades of right-politicians from New Labour to Conservative, and are distrustful of suits on the media.

I think the BNP are making inroads precisely because they aren't visible to annoy people in this media-saturated age. I think they should be allowed to show themselves up for the empty, useless, confused and poisonous, trash that they are.

[degenerated]

Again, it looks like I’ll be the only one to defend the ‘indefensible’. :greengrin

I think the scenes I’ve seen and the first hand accounts (free of media distortion and ‘even handedness’) of what happened in Harrow are inspiring. Every single time the E.D.L. (ever increasingly being revealed as what they are - the foot soldiers of the B.N.P.) have attempted to put in a show of strength - reawakening the age-old fascist tactic of attempting to have control of the streets, something I’ll come back to - they have been drastically numbered and sent on their way with a bloody nose or at least damaged pride. I here’s hoping it continues until they finally get the message.

Fascist bloc activity is intended, as Hitler said and John Tyndall echoed, “to make the worm feel like the dragon”, I doubt there were too many of them feeling like dragons yesterday as they cowered in pubs and behind police lines. Throughout the 1930s and then the 1950s-80s, far-right groups were able to use the streets as ‘their’ territory with quasi-paramilitary groups intimidating any group not their own. Largely due to militant anti-fascism they haven’t been able to do this and so their efforts have been sublimated from the street to the polling booth - with some degree of success. However, it’s part of the ideology of fascism that it’s necessary to have a vanguard, militant presence on the streets no matter how well you do at the polls. The B.N.P. cannot be seen to have a direct presence amongst these groups and certain tags are now tarnished beyond reclamation (N.F., C.-18 etc.) thus the choice of slightly incongruous and unknown names such as the English Defence League and Casuals United. It makes it sound new, fresh and unblemished when in fact it is anything but. Simon Darby and other senior members in the B.N.P. have made a number of not-so-subtle hints about the division between traditional politics and street politics. Both need to be confronted. As it stands, it is literally impossible for the far-right to carry out the sort of actions they wish to carry out. Long may it be so.

As for ‘anti-fascists. Read Asian gangs’. Well no, don’t. Unsurprisingly given the area and the shockingly provocative nature of the event the vast majority of the counter-protestors were local Muslim youths. The Left (and other groups) weren't there in the sort of numbers they should have been, but they were present. But anyway, he most marginalised, threatened, derided and stigmatised section of British society saying “**** you, we’re not going to take it!”. Brilliant, I say. Maybe I’m alone.

Assuming that what people mean when they say things like, ‘That’s not antifascism, that’s brain-deadism. Doing the B.N.P’s work for them.’, is that people will see a large body of ‘marauding’ Asian youth and be driven into the arms of the fascists. Frankly, I think that’s complete bollocks. It buys into the idea that politics is only ever played out in the media and in the front rooms of middle-England; it isn’t. Politics isn’t, and never should be, about how things are going to be interpreted on the news stations.

As an aside, why is the Battle of Cable Street rightly lauded as an incredible act of popular anti-fascist action yet people can never be quick enough to condemn ‘each side as bad as the other’ when similar action takes place contemporarily? Genuine question.

And for the sake of clarity, not one police officer has, as far as I can see, been reported as suffering even minor injuries despite the apparent ultra-violence of the counter-protestors. Odd that.

¡No pasarán!

great post LH :top marks

[Betty Boop]

Again, it looks like I’ll be the only one to defend the ‘indefensible’. :greengrin

I think the scenes I’ve seen and the first hand accounts (free of media distortion and ‘even handedness’) of what happened in Harrow are inspiring. Every single time the E.D.L. (ever increasingly being revealed as what they are - the foot soldiers of the B.N.P.) have attempted to put in a show of strength - reawakening the age-old fascist tactic of attempting to have control of the streets, something I’ll come back to - they have been drastically numbered and sent on their way with a bloody nose or at least damaged pride. I here’s hoping it continues until they finally get the message.

Fascist bloc activity is intended, as Hitler said and John Tyndall echoed, “to make the worm feel like the dragon”, I doubt there were too many of them feeling like dragons yesterday as they cowered in pubs and behind police lines. Throughout the 1930s and then the 1950s-80s, far-right groups were able to use the streets as ‘their’ territory with quasi-paramilitary groups intimidating any group not their own. Largely due to militant anti-fascism they haven’t been able to do this and so their efforts have been sublimated from the street to the polling booth - with some degree of success. However, it’s part of the ideology of fascism that it’s necessary to have a vanguard, militant presence on the streets no matter how well you do at the polls. The B.N.P. cannot be seen to have a direct presence amongst these groups and certain tags are now tarnished beyond reclamation (N.F., C.-18 etc.) thus the choice of slightly incongruous and unknown names such as the English Defence League and Casuals United. It makes it sound new, fresh and unblemished when in fact it is anything but. Simon Darby and other senior members in the B.N.P. have made a number of not-so-subtle hints about the division between traditional politics and street politics. Both need to be confronted. As it stands, it is literally impossible for the far-right to carry out the sort of actions they wish to carry out. Long may it be so.

As for ‘anti-fascists. Read Asian gangs’. Well no, don’t. Unsurprisingly given the area and the shockingly provocative nature of the event the vast majority of the counter-protestors were local Muslim youths. The Left (and other groups) weren't there in the sort of numbers they should have been, but they were present. But anyway, he most marginalised, threatened, derided and stigmatised section of British society saying “**** you, we’re not going to take it!”. Brilliant, I say. Maybe I’m alone.

Assuming that what people mean when they say things like, ‘That’s not antifascism, that’s brain-deadism. Doing the B.N.P’s work for them.’, is that people will see a large body of ‘marauding’ Asian youth and be driven into the arms of the fascists. Frankly, I think that’s complete bollocks. It buys into the idea that politics is only ever played out in the media and in the front rooms of middle-England; it isn’t. Politics isn’t, and never should be, about how things are going to be interpreted on the news stations.

As an aside, why is the Battle of Cable Street rightly lauded as an incredible act of popular anti-fascist action yet people can never be quick enough to condemn ‘each side as bad as the other’ when similar action takes place contemporarily? Genuine question.

And for the sake of clarity, not one police officer has, as far as I can see, been reported as suffering even minor injuries despite the apparent ultra-violence of the counter-protestors. Odd that.

¡No pasarán!

Fantastic as usual! :not worth

[da-robster]

The other thing I noticed is this "David Ashton, the leader of Harrow Council, said it was a “great shame” that both groups of demonstrators felt they had to import their “extreme views” into the borough"

Clearly being an 'anti-fascist' is now considered an 'extreme view'.:rolleyes:

But attacking and provoking a group of people trying to express their freedom of speech however horribly misguided stupid and downright wrong it is could be considered that.The way the mayor sees it is if he backs the anti facism protestors then he is condoning violence and will lose voters if he attacks the BNP he might be considered anti freedom of speech if he attacks the anti facists he will be seen as a facist and if he says nothing then he'll be attacked even more . To me this seems like a calculated political action, nothing more nothing less.

[borders.cabbage]

Again, it looks like I’ll be the only one to defend the ‘indefensible’. :greengrin

I think the scenes I’ve seen and the first hand accounts (free of media distortion and ‘even handedness’) of what happened in Harrow are inspiring. Every single time the E.D.L. (ever increasingly being revealed as what they are - the foot soldiers of the B.N.P.) have attempted to put in a show of strength - reawakening the age-old fascist tactic of attempting to have control of the streets, something I’ll come back to - they have been drastically numbered and sent on their way with a bloody nose or at least damaged pride. I here’s hoping it continues until they finally get the message.

Fascist bloc activity is intended, as Hitler said and John Tyndall echoed, “to make the worm feel like the dragon”, I doubt there were too many of them feeling like dragons yesterday as they cowered in pubs and behind police lines. Throughout the 1930s and then the 1950s-80s, far-right groups were able to use the streets as ‘their’ territory with quasi-paramilitary groups intimidating any group not their own. Largely due to militant anti-fascism they haven’t been able to do this and so their efforts have been sublimated from the street to the polling booth - with some degree of success. However, it’s part of the ideology of fascism that it’s necessary to have a vanguard, militant presence on the streets no matter how well you do at the polls. The B.N.P. cannot be seen to have a direct presence amongst these groups and certain tags are now tarnished beyond reclamation (N.F., C.-18 etc.) thus the choice of slightly incongruous and unknown names such as the English Defence League and Casuals United. It makes it sound new, fresh and unblemished when in fact it is anything but. Simon Darby and other senior members in the B.N.P. have made a number of not-so-subtle hints about the division between traditional politics and street politics. Both need to be confronted. As it stands, it is literally impossible for the far-right to carry out the sort of actions they wish to carry out. Long may it be so.

As for ‘anti-fascists. Read Asian gangs’. Well no, don’t. Unsurprisingly given the area and the shockingly provocative nature of the event the vast majority of the counter-protestors were local Muslim youths. The Left (and other groups) weren't there in the sort of numbers they should have been, but they were present. But anyway, he most marginalised, threatened, derided and stigmatised section of British society saying “**** you, we’re not going to take it!”. Brilliant, I say. Maybe I’m alone.

Assuming that what people mean when they say things like, ‘That’s not antifascism, that’s brain-deadism. Doing the B.N.P’s work for them.’, is that people will see a large body of ‘marauding’ Asian youth and be driven into the arms of the fascists. Frankly, I think that’s complete bollocks. It buys into the idea that politics is only ever played out in the media and in the front rooms of middle-England; it isn’t. Politics isn’t, and never should be, about how things are going to be interpreted on the news stations.

As an aside, why is the Battle of Cable Street rightly lauded as an incredible act of popular anti-fascist action yet people can never be quick enough to condemn ‘each side as bad as the other’ when similar action takes place contemporarily? Genuine question.

And for the sake of clarity, not one police officer has, as far as I can see, been reported as suffering even minor injuries despite the apparent ultra-violence of the counter-protestors. Odd that.

¡No pasarán!
:agree:
:top marks

[hibsbollah]

Again, it looks like I’ll be the only one to defend the ‘indefensible’. :greengrin

I think the scenes I’ve seen and the first hand accounts (free of media distortion and ‘even handedness’) of what happened in Harrow are inspiring. Every single time the E.D.L. (ever increasingly being revealed as what they are - the foot soldiers of the B.N.P.) have attempted to put in a show of strength - reawakening the age-old fascist tactic of attempting to have control of the streets, something I’ll come back to - they have been drastically numbered and sent on their way with a bloody nose or at least damaged pride. I here’s hoping it continues until they finally get the message.

Fascist bloc activity is intended, as Hitler said and John Tyndall echoed, “to make the worm feel like the dragon”, I doubt there were too many of them feeling like dragons yesterday as they cowered in pubs and behind police lines. Throughout the 1930s and then the 1950s-80s, far-right groups were able to use the streets as ‘their’ territory with quasi-paramilitary groups intimidating any group not their own. Largely due to militant anti-fascism they haven’t been able to do this and so their efforts have been sublimated from the street to the polling booth - with some degree of success. However, it’s part of the ideology of fascism that it’s necessary to have a vanguard, militant presence on the streets no matter how well you do at the polls. The B.N.P. cannot be seen to have a direct presence amongst these groups and certain tags are now tarnished beyond reclamation (N.F., C.-18 etc.) thus the choice of slightly incongruous and unknown names such as the English Defence League and Casuals United. It makes it sound new, fresh and unblemished when in fact it is anything but. Simon Darby and other senior members in the B.N.P. have made a number of not-so-subtle hints about the division between traditional politics and street politics. Both need to be confronted. As it stands, it is literally impossible for the far-right to carry out the sort of actions they wish to carry out. Long may it be so.

As for ‘anti-fascists. Read Asian gangs’. Well no, don’t. Unsurprisingly given the area and the shockingly provocative nature of the event the vast majority of the counter-protestors were local Muslim youths. The Left (and other groups) weren't there in the sort of numbers they should have been, but they were present. But anyway, he most marginalised, threatened, derided and stigmatised section of British society saying “**** you, we’re not going to take it!”. Brilliant, I say. Maybe I’m alone.

Assuming that what people mean when they say things like, ‘That’s not antifascism, that’s brain-deadism. Doing the B.N.P’s work for them.’, is that people will see a large body of ‘marauding’ Asian youth and be driven into the arms of the fascists. Frankly, I think that’s complete bollocks. It buys into the idea that politics is only ever played out in the media and in the front rooms of middle-England; it isn’t. Politics isn’t, and never should be, about how things are going to be interpreted on the news stations.

As an aside, why is the Battle of Cable Street rightly lauded as an incredible act of popular anti-fascist action yet people can never be quick enough to condemn ‘each side as bad as the other’ when similar action takes place contemporarily? Genuine question.

And for the sake of clarity, not one police officer has, as far as I can see, been reported as suffering even minor injuries despite the apparent ultra-violence of the counter-protestors. Odd that.

¡No pasarán!

Good post LH:agree: Sometimes you need to take a moral judgement as to which side of the fence you're on. This 'both sides are as bad as each other' line just doesnt cut it.

[hibsdaft]

LiverpoolHibs - you can't compare 20 boneheads hiding in a pub surrounded by police with thousands of fascists in uniform descending on the East End in the 1930's.

if the response to the EDF so far has been so successful why have they persisted with their activities, to greater and greater wider awareness.

these EDF people don't even seem to know what they stand for but they seem to like getting a reaction.

in this sense they remind me of those idiot muslim extremist protestors at the Luton soldier homecoming earlier in the year. two sides of the same coin imo.

folk responding to these two sets of divisive ****s are falling hook line and sinker for the only plan they seem to have - heightening tension and sectarian anger.

that said i don't really blame the kids on the ground in Harrow for falling for this stuff, its the older types behind the scenes cheering these set pieces on that are out of order imo (and nowhere near the action when it comes either).

finally, just because you're morally in the right doesn't mean you're doing the right thing tactically.

[hibsbollah]

LiverpoolHibs - you can't compare 20 boneheads hiding in a pub surrounded by police with thousands of fascists in uniform descending on the East End in the 1930's.




I think you can. The intent and tactics are the same, only the scale is different.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Firstly, apologies for the tone of the part of my post directed at you. It was written a bit excitedly as you can tell by the number of typos. :greengrin


LiverpoolHibs - you can't compare 20 boneheads hiding in a pub surrounded by police with thousands of fascists in uniform descending on the East End in the 1930's.

As hibsbollah says, I don't see why not. At what point do the situations become comparable?


if the response to the EDF so far has been so successful why have they persisted with their activities, to greater and greater wider awareness.

Oh come on, they've only been going five minutes! And that's not even the point anyway...


these EDF people don't even seem to know what they stand for but they seem to like getting a reaction.

in this sense they remind me of those idiot muslim extremist protestors at the Luton soldier homecoming earlier in the year. two sides of the same coin imo.

folk responding to these two sets of divisive ****s are falling hook line and sinker for the only plan they seem to have - heightening tension and sectarian anger.

See, that's the thing. I fail to see a heightening of tension, I see a large number of people of every race and political view unwilling to allow the far-right power in the streets.

Honestly, mate. Have a quick gander at some far-right blogs/forums or whatever (the EDL one if you want) and see the level of anger and disillusionment about what happened - both before and after Harrow. This is not playing into their hands or falling for their plan.

Also, they do know what they stand for. Their current set up is largely made up of long-term activists with the hope of large scale recruitment amongst football fans (which incidentally everyone should be looking out for). I think you're falling for alot of the things they want you to think about them.


that said i don't really blame the kids on the ground in Harrow for falling for this stuff, its the older types behind the scenes cheering these set pieces on that are out of order imo (and nowhere near the action when it comes either).

I'm not sure who that's referring to (me?) or what the point of it is.


finally, just because you're morally in the right doesn't mean you're doing the right thing tactically.

I never made that leap unargued. I think I've stated why I think the response was both morally right and politically expedient.

[hibsdaft]

LH - no bother and nah that wasn't directed at you, no.

i cannie hack these long drawn out debates like falkirk-hibs can :wink: but still can't agree with comparison with the 1930s. the ideology, message and motive of these EDF set pieces are different as is the political context of both today, and more importantly, the far right itself.

imo...

[lyonhibs]

Again, it looks like I’ll be the only one to defend the ‘indefensible’. :greengrin

I think the scenes I’ve seen and the first hand accounts (free of media distortion and ‘even handedness’) of what happened in Harrow are inspiring. Every single time the E.D.L. (ever increasingly being revealed as what they are - the foot soldiers of the B.N.P.) have attempted to put in a show of strength - reawakening the age-old fascist tactic of attempting to have control of the streets, something I’ll come back to - they have been drastically numbered and sent on their way with a bloody nose or at least damaged pride. I here’s hoping it continues until they finally get the message.

Fascist bloc activity is intended, as Hitler said and John Tyndall echoed, “to make the worm feel like the dragon”, I doubt there were too many of them feeling like dragons yesterday as they cowered in pubs and behind police lines. Throughout the 1930s and then the 1950s-80s, far-right groups were able to use the streets as ‘their’ territory with quasi-paramilitary groups intimidating any group not their own. Largely due to militant anti-fascism they haven’t been able to do this and so their efforts have been sublimated from the street to the polling booth - with some degree of success. However, it’s part of the ideology of fascism that it’s necessary to have a vanguard, militant presence on the streets no matter how well you do at the polls. The B.N.P. cannot be seen to have a direct presence amongst these groups and certain tags are now tarnished beyond reclamation (N.F., C.-18 etc.) thus the choice of slightly incongruous and unknown names such as the English Defence League and Casuals United. It makes it sound new, fresh and unblemished when in fact it is anything but. Simon Darby and other senior members in the B.N.P. have made a number of not-so-subtle hints about the division between traditional politics and street politics. Both need to be confronted. As it stands, it is literally impossible for the far-right to carry out the sort of actions they wish to carry out. Long may it be so.

As for ‘anti-fascists. Read Asian gangs’. Well no, don’t. Unsurprisingly given the area and the shockingly provocative nature of the event the vast majority of the counter-protestors were local Muslim youths. The Left (and other groups) weren't there in the sort of numbers they should have been, but they were present. But anyway, he most marginalised, threatened, derided and stigmatised section of British society saying “**** you, we’re not going to take it!”. Brilliant, I say. Maybe I’m alone.

Assuming that what people mean when they say things like, ‘That’s not antifascism, that’s brain-deadism. Doing the B.N.P’s work for them.’, is that people will see a large body of ‘marauding’ Asian youth and be driven into the arms of the fascists. Frankly, I think that’s complete bollocks. It buys into the idea that politics is only ever played out in the media and in the front rooms of middle-England; it isn’t. Politics isn’t, and never should be, about how things are going to be interpreted on the news stations.

As an aside, why is the Battle of Cable Street rightly lauded as an incredible act of popular anti-fascist action yet people can never be quick enough to condemn ‘each side as bad as the other’ when similar action takes place contemporarily? Genuine question.

And for the sake of clarity, not one police officer has, as far as I can see, been reported as suffering even minor injuries despite the apparent ultra-violence of the counter-protestors. Odd that.

¡No pasarán!

How much spare time do you have???

Great post though :agree:

[Dashing Bob S]

Again, it looks like I’ll be the only one to defend the ‘indefensible’. :greengrin

I think the scenes I’ve seen and the first hand accounts (free of media distortion and ‘even handedness’) of what happened in Harrow are inspiring. Every single time the E.D.L. (ever increasingly being revealed as what they are - the foot soldiers of the B.N.P.) have attempted to put in a show of strength - reawakening the age-old fascist tactic of attempting to have control of the streets, something I’ll come back to - they have been drastically numbered and sent on their way with a bloody nose or at least damaged pride. I here’s hoping it continues until they finally get the message.

Fascist bloc activity is intended, as Hitler said and John Tyndall echoed, “to make the worm feel like the dragon”, I doubt there were too many of them feeling like dragons yesterday as they cowered in pubs and behind police lines. Throughout the 1930s and then the 1950s-80s, far-right groups were able to use the streets as ‘their’ territory with quasi-paramilitary groups intimidating any group not their own. Largely due to militant anti-fascism they haven’t been able to do this and so their efforts have been sublimated from the street to the polling booth - with some degree of success. However, it’s part of the ideology of fascism that it’s necessary to have a vanguard, militant presence on the streets no matter how well you do at the polls. The B.N.P. cannot be seen to have a direct presence amongst these groups and certain tags are now tarnished beyond reclamation (N.F., C.-18 etc.) thus the choice of slightly incongruous and unknown names such as the English Defence League and Casuals United. It makes it sound new, fresh and unblemished when in fact it is anything but. Simon Darby and other senior members in the B.N.P. have made a number of not-so-subtle hints about the division between traditional politics and street politics. Both need to be confronted. As it stands, it is literally impossible for the far-right to carry out the sort of actions they wish to carry out. Long may it be so.

As for ‘anti-fascists. Read Asian gangs’. Well no, don’t. Unsurprisingly given the area and the shockingly provocative nature of the event the vast majority of the counter-protestors were local Muslim youths. The Left (and other groups) weren't there in the sort of numbers they should have been, but they were present. But anyway, he most marginalised, threatened, derided and stigmatised section of British society saying “**** you, we’re not going to take it!”. Brilliant, I say. Maybe I’m alone.

Assuming that what people mean when they say things like, ‘That’s not antifascism, that’s brain-deadism. Doing the B.N.P’s work for them.’, is that people will see a large body of ‘marauding’ Asian youth and be driven into the arms of the fascists. Frankly, I think that’s complete bollocks. It buys into the idea that politics is only ever played out in the media and in the front rooms of middle-England; it isn’t. Politics isn’t, and never should be, about how things are going to be interpreted on the news stations.

As an aside, why is the Battle of Cable Street rightly lauded as an incredible act of popular anti-fascist action yet people can never be quick enough to condemn ‘each side as bad as the other’ when similar action takes place contemporarily? Genuine question.

And for the sake of clarity, not one police officer has, as far as I can see, been reported as suffering even minor injuries despite the apparent ultra-violence of the counter-protestors. Odd that.

¡No pasarán!

Excellent post, LH.

[Killiehibbie]

Good post LH:agree: Sometimes you need to take a moral judgement as to which side of the fence you're on. This 'both sides are as bad as each other' line just doesnt cut it.

Why should anyone have to choose sides? It's like asking who would you prefer to run the country Hitler or Stalin? End result is the same they kill you if you don't do as you're told.

[Betty Boop]

November protest planned for Glasgow

Right-wing EDL targets Scotland

By Gordon Blackstock

AN ENGLISH protest group accused of being far right extremists is enjoying an explosion in popularity in Scotland, according to its founding member, Tommy Robinson.

Mr Robinson said last night the English Defence League, which was only set up in August, has had a huge surge in membership north of the Border.

The organisation, accused by a cabinet minister last week of heralding a return to 1930s-style fascism, has now set up a sister organisation called the Scottish Defence League.

Numbers of the SDL are not known, but Mr Robinson claims it is sizeable and growing every day — with their first Scottish protest planned in two months.

Controversial

Members of the controversial group, who were involved in violent clashes with members of the public and police in Birmingham last month, have announced they will hold a demo in Glasgow on November 14.

Mr Robinson has said many of their Scottish members were in the crowd during clashes in the West Midlands city.

In Glasgow, the police and council face a potential powderkeg during their first demo north of the Border.

Violent clashes and mayhem have followed many of their previous marches, which they claim are in protest at Islamic extremism.

In Birmingham, the violence resulted in more than 90 arrests.

The group's current plans were announced on its Facebook page last week, where the shadowy organisation — thought to have sprung from various football casual groups — has more than 3000 online members.

Not racist

Many claimed they would be travelling to Glasgow to take part in the protests.

Tommy Robinson said, “We are not a racist organisation, despite attempts to portray us as that.

“We abhor all forms of extremism.

“In Scotland we have had a lot of support. The organisation is growing incredibly quickly. We will march wherever we feel Islamic extremism is eroding our way of life.”

A source at Strathclyde Police told The Sunday Post, “We know all about it and will be planning well in advance.

“Our public order trained officers feel confident in dealing with any trouble if it erupts.

“In Scotland police officers can act quicker than their English counterparts — we don’t have the same number of protocols.

“If anyone steps out of line they’ll be locked up before they know it.”

Anger

The plans have been met with widespread anger, particularly among the Islamic community.

The Scottish Islamic Foundation has arranged an emergency public meeting for tomorrow to discuss the demo. Asif Ahmed, chairman of the SIF, said, “This is time for Scotland to once again show we will not be divided by extremists. We have faced worse and come through it.

“The last time Glasgow was tested was at the 2007 airport attack. What we saw then was all strands of society coming together for a remarkable show of solidarity in George Square.

“We’ll be working again to make sure the numbers peacefully opposing extremism will far outstrip that of the haters.”

A spokeswoman for Glasgow City Council said, “We have not received any approach from the Scottish Defence League. However, if they applied their application would be considered by the parades committee.”