Girl, 14 Stripped and Beaten at the Omni Centre

[Betty Boop]

What a horrific case.

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Girl-14-was-stripped-and.5604804.jp

[Sir David Gray]

Words can't actually describe just how sickening that is. :bitchy:

It'll be very interesting to see what punishment they get, since we're talking about a 13 year old and two 14 year olds.

To me, that should be life imprisonment for something like that. By the sounds of it, they have pretty much ruined that girl's life.

Just a truly horrendous story.

[borders.cabbage]

It'll be very interesting to see what punishment they get
.

3 years in a Y.O. unit, a HUGE DOSE of councilling and a couple of trips white water rafting.

[hibsbollah]

Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.

[johnbc70]

Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.

Agree, made me sick reading it.

Hopefully the victim can get on with her life in some way and the attackers are given a long sentance.

[Steve-O]

Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.

I think it's important we know what people as young as that are capable of.

Terrible stuff. The neds really are getting beyond a joke in Scotland :bitchy:

[TheEastTerrace]

How any court can pass anything other than a heavy prison sentence will be beyond me.

That is horrific, absolutely shocked by reading that. I only hope the young girl can recover from this ordeal.

[GlesgaeHibby]

How any court can pass anything other than a heavy prison sentence will be beyond me.

That is horrific, absolutely shocked by reading that. I only hope the young girl can recover from this ordeal.

Exactly. They're clearly old enough to perpetrate a sickening crime like that so they can be punished as criminals, which is what they are.

[Woody1985]

The neds are getting sicker by the day.

IIRC there were two young lads down south tried to hand another boy from a tree only a couple of months ago.

[Judas Iscariot]

Was shocked when i read this..

Why anyone would want to do that to another person is frightening, even worse when they are all so young..

Throws up another issue though, why are 14 year old girls being allowed to go "Up town" anyway..

At that age i wasn't allowed any further than 5-10 mins from my house..

Doesn't in any way, shape or form excuse what she was subjected too right enough..

[Woody1985]

Was shocked when i read this..

Why anyone would want to do that to another person is frightening, even worse when they are all so young..

Throws up another issue though, why are 14 year old girls being allowed to go "Up town" anyway..

At that age i wasn't allowed any further than 5-10 mins from my house..

Doesn't in any way, shape or form excuse what she was subjected too right enough..

Don't know about you but I wasn't kept on a lead when I was 14 and managed to not be beaten with a stilleto in an underground car park after venturing further than 10 minutes from my house.

Perhaps she stayed in town and the omni was 5/10 minutes away.

Sorry for getting on at you but it seems like you're somehow implying that this is partly the girls parents fault, which IMO, is utter BS.

[Steve-O]

Was shocked when i read this..

Why anyone would want to do that to another person is frightening, even worse when they are all so young..

Throws up another issue though, why are 14 year old girls being allowed to go "Up town" anyway..

At that age i wasn't allowed any further than 5-10 mins from my house..

Doesn't in any way, shape or form excuse what she was subjected too right enough..

Pretty sure I was allowed up town at 14 - didn't really go up there at night, but still.

[lapsedhibee]

Don't know about you but I wasn't kept on a lead when I was 14 and managed to not be beaten with a stilleto in an underground car park after venturing further than 10 minutes from my house.

Perhaps she stayed in town and the omni was 5/10 minutes away.

Sorry for getting on at you but it seems like you're somehow implying that this is partly the girls parents fault, which IMO, is utter BS.

Agree with that, though the report doesn't make it clear whether the victim was one of the group of cider-drinking youngsters who were thrown out of the cinema, or a stranger to that group.

The Top of the Walk is full of shockingly drunk young girls at weekend nights. It's a bad place to be then.

[Steve-O]

Can only imagine what it would've been like in a cinema with these cider drinking cretins :grr:

What is it with young folk these days? I might've had the odd cider down the park, but I think the worst it got was playing 'tap door run' - not getting chucked out of cinemas and attacking people to within an inch of their lives! :bitchy:

[RoslinInstHibby]

disgusting little cretins:bitchy:

worrying times, i have a 14 year old neice who's mates are always at her to go up the town.......

[Green Mikey]

Words can't actually describe just how sickening that is. :bitchy:

It'll be very interesting to see what punishment they get, since we're talking about a 13 year old and two 14 year olds.

To me, that should be life imprisonment for something like that. By the sounds of it, they have pretty much ruined that girl's life.

Just a truly horrendous story.

Life imprisonment is a extremely harsh for this crime considering it was perpretrated by juveniles. The crime is very serious but to suggest such a punishment in a complete overreaction to the story.

[Peevemor]

Life imprisonment is a extremely harsh for this crime considering it was perpretrated by juveniles. The crime is very serious but to suggest such a punishment in a complete overreaction to the story.

Why? They could easily have killed her. How long do you think it'll take for the victim to recover from her ordeal (if she ever does)?

I'd rather that people capable of committing such acts weren't walking the streets.

If I got my hands on someone that had done that to one of my friends or family members, I'd probably risk prison myself.

[Gus]

Life imprisonment is a extremely harsh for this crime considering it was perpretrated by juveniles. The crime is very serious but to suggest such a punishment in a complete overreaction to the story.

behave yourself.....this girl will have to live with this for her whole LIFE, so why should they get any less? I hope the little sh*ts are beaten to an inch of their lives or worst in prison & see how they feel being demoralised & frightened. PC brigade does my nut in.

:grr::grr::grr::grr:

[Green Mikey]

Why? They could easily have killed her. How long do you think it'll take for the victim to recover from her ordeal (if she ever does)?

I'd rather that people capable of committing such acts weren't walking the streets.

If I got my hands on someone that had done that to one of my friends or family members, I'd probably risk prison myself.

Going by your logic it would be life imprisonment that you would be risking.

Don't get me wrong this is a very serious crime and should be met with strong punishment however to imprison 14 yr olds for the rest of their life is too extreme. Do you think it is right that they would be facing circa 70 years of incarceration for one crime?

[(((Fergus)))]

Don't know about you but I wasn't kept on a lead when I was 14 and managed to not be beaten with a stilleto in an underground car park after venturing further than 10 minutes from my house.

Perhaps she stayed in town and the omni was 5/10 minutes away.

Sorry for getting on at you but it seems like you're somehow implying that this is partly the girls parents fault, which IMO, is utter BS.


Why is that not the case?

[Green Mikey]

behave yourself.....this girl will have to live with this for her whole LIFE, so why should they get any less? I hope the little sh*ts are beaten to an inch of their lives or worst in prison & see how they feel being demoralised & frightened. PC brigade does my nut in.

:grr::grr::grr::grr:

Behave yourself:grr:

You are saying that because these people have comitted a crime you are advocating that they be assaulted as punishment.

You are so outraged by this crime that you wish to see it comitted again but against the original perpretrators...an eye for an eye. So all muggers should be mugged, all rapsists be raped, all murders should be murdered? Who carries out these punishments for you?

PC brigade:faf: I don't think that life inprisonment (for certain crimes) and advocating violent reprisals against criminals is an effective form of justice.

[LiverpoolHibs]

behave yourself.....this girl will have to live with this for her whole LIFE, so why should they get any less? I hope the little sh*ts are beaten to an inch of their lives or worst in prison & see how they feel being demoralised & frightened. PC brigade does my nut in.

:grr::grr::grr::grr:

You're a lunatic.

I've posted this before and it pertains to the James Bulger case in particular (hopefully this doesn't derail the thread) but I think it's a fantastic piece on how violent crime committed by children should/shouldn't be treated by society as a whole...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/feb/06/bulger.ukcrime

[Peevemor]

Going by your logic it would be life imprisonment that you would be risking.

Don't get me wrong this is a very serious crime and should be met with strong punishment however to imprison 14 yr olds for the rest of their life is too extreme. Do you think it is right that they would be facing circa 70 years of incarceration for one crime?

If my daughter was the victim then that's exactly what I'd be looking for. Just because I don't know the lassie it doesn't mean I'm going to change my opinion.

[LiverpoolHibs]

If my daughter was the victim then that's exactly what I'd be looking for. Just because I don't know the lassie it doesn't mean I'm going to change my opinion.

Really? I think that's exactly what you/we should be doing.

[MSK]

Absolutely despicable & disgusting assault..i can only hope that whatever punishment is meted out to those "sicko's" by the courts it is the correct one & not one iota of remorse is shown to them wherever they end up ..they are nothing but **** !!

[Peevemor]

Really? I think that's exactly what you/we should be doing.

Tough!

This was an attempted murder and sexual assault carried out and filmed over a 45 minute period.

They're evil little *******s who knew exactly what they were doing and should be removed from society at large.

[ArabHibee]

behave yourself.....this girl will have to live with this for her whole LIFE, so why should they get any less? I hope the little sh*ts are beaten to an inch of their lives or worst in prison & see how they feel being demoralised & frightened. PC brigade does my nut in.

:grr::grr::grr::grr:

Would be surprised if they got put in prison for this. Will probably be a secure unit for a few years with all the perks that involves - day jollys here and there, holidays abroad etc.

[Judas Iscariot]

Don't know about you but I wasn't kept on a lead when I was 14 and managed to not be beaten with a stilleto in an underground car park after venturing further than 10 minutes from my house.

Perhaps she stayed in town and the omni was 5/10 minutes away.

Sorry for getting on at you but it seems like you're somehow implying that this is partly the girls parents fault, which IMO, is utter BS.

Well done for not getting into any bother whilst up town at that age but i know/heard of plenty incidents of kids getting jumped/reeking/attacked etc that would certainly make sure if i had kids that age i wouldn't be letting them go up there..

I went up a few times when older 15-16 and got into bother, fighting , chased, drunken nonsense to know that it's defo not a good place for young kids..


Pretty sure I was allowed up town at 14 - didn't really go up there at night, but still.

Would you be happy with your 13-14 year old daughter going up town at night?


Agree with that, though the report doesn't make it clear whether the victim was one of the group of cider-drinking youngsters who were thrown out of the cinema, or a stranger to that group.

The Top of the Walk is full of shockingly drunk young girls at weekend nights. It's a bad place to be then.

Why are they up there in the 1st place?

My 1st post genuinely wasn't a go at the girls parents, just a question regarding the vast amounts of young teens that now seem to hang about the town reeking..

It's not all about "letting" them go up town but actually sitting down, talking and educating them about the dangers and consequences of drinking,being in the town centre at night, putting themselves in vulnerable situations etc..

[Jay]

In the early hours of the following morning police were called to a disturbance at a young person's unit on the other side of Edinburgh and found the brunette without her shoes and covered in dried blood.

She told them she had been drinking cider and had a fight with a girl who was "being wide."

The blonde was found by police the following day after being reported as a missing person.


Young persons unit? Whats that? It sounds like at least 2 of them were in care of some kind or another. It also reads like the girl who was attacked was with them.

Doesn't make any difference to the horrendous time the girl went through though and I hope they are severly punished. Life would only mean 10 years anyway so there is no point in arguing over that. They would still be in their mid 20's when released.

[Gus]

Behave yourself:grr:

You are saying that because these people have comitted a crime you are advocating that they be assaulted as punishment.

You are so outraged by this crime that you wish to see it comitted again but against the original perpretrators...an eye for an eye. So all muggers should be mugged, all rapsists be raped, all murders should be murdered? Who carries out these punishments for you?

PC brigade:faf: I don't think that life inprisonment (for certain crimes) and advocating violent reprisals against criminals is an effective form of justice.

I have posted in the heat of the moment. So I apologise for that & I certainly can't say i condone any sort of violence what so ever. But after reading the article I was & still am very angry. As the justice system as a whole in this country is wrong IMO & this girl has got to live with the horrors of this brutal assault for the rest of her life......this cannot be changed but some sort of justice has to be served. This is where my vigilante head comes in to play, it is not right nor is it big nor clever but its still there.

I hope her family & friends help her get through this & that correct justice is dished out. Nice comfy bed, PS2 & trips away are not the answer but this is what they will get.

But if this was a family member or close friend that had been put through this, then YES I beleive in an eye for an eye

What Punishment would suffice for you?

[khib70]

You're a lunatic.

I've posted this before and it pertains to the James Bulger case in particular (hopefully this doesn't derail the thread) but I think it's a fantastic piece on how violent crime committed by children should/shouldn't be treated by society as a whole...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/feb/06/bulger.ukcrime
Still adopting shorthand for those who disagree with you? Classic Soviet Union stuff - dissidents are lunatics.

As for your Grauniad piece, it's a classic of the genre. Dysfunctional family, deprivation, sibling resentment :blah: In short, anything that removes any responsibility for their actions from the actual perpetrators.

I wouldn't personally advocate violent reprisals against the pondlife who perpetrated this latest attack. But people are angry, and rightly so, because these things happen and the perpetrators - who knew exactly what the potential consequences of their actions were - are protected by anonymity. They will then be further protected by social enquiry reports and the like, all of which will basically be built around Blake Morrison's and the Guardian's approach to crime. The perpetrators will end up being portrayed as victims, and the victims forgotten. They will reoffend sooner rather than later. And next time they may succeed in killing someone.

"Compassion" has been a hot topic recently. It's a good thing, but like respect, it has to be earned

[Green Mikey]

I have posted in the heat of the moment. So I apologise for that & I certainly can't say i condone any sort of violence what so ever. But after reading the article I was & still am very angry. As the justice system as a whole in this country is wrong IMO & this girl has got to live with the horrors of this brutal assault for the rest of her life......this cannot be changed but some sort of justice has to be served. This is where my vigilante head comes in to play, it is not right nor is it big nor clever but its still there.

I hope her family & friends help her get through this & that correct justice is dished out. Nice comfy bed, PS2 & trips away are not the answer but this is what they will get.

But if this was a family member or close friend that had been put through this, then YES I beleive in an eye for an eye

What Punishment would suffice for you?

IMO we would all believe in 'an eye for an eye' if soimething like this happened to someone close to you. It is comletely understandable that there will a subjective response from any victim's family.

In this case I believe that there has to be considerable custodial sentence imposed and some attempt at rehabilitation due to the age of the people involved. I do agree with you on the point that there should be less home comforts for prisoners of all ages.

[Billie Jo]

Maybe I shouldny post what I think.

Sick little *******s.

I hope the young lassie recovers from this and I wish her well:boo hoo:

[--------]

Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.


I agree. There's absolutely no 'public interest' served by publishing all that.

Sadly, though, there's a lot of 'interest' among the 'public' in knowing all the salacious details.

Gotta get right out there and sell those newspapers, bud. :rolleyes:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Still adopting shorthand for those who disagree with you? Classic Soviet Union stuff - dissidents are lunatics.

:hilarious

Amazing.

I stand by it. I think that a grown man wanting to batter three children to 'within an inch of their lives' by why of punishment for their behaviour is a lunatic; therefore I called him a lunatic.


As for your Grauniad piece, it's a classic of the genre. Dysfunctional family, deprivation, sibling resentment :blah: In short, anything that removes any responsibility for their actions from the actual perpetrators.

It's not my Guardian piece, I just posted a link to an article that I think is very good.

And yeah, that's right - it's an attempt to clear them of any responsibility for their actions, deary me. It's an attempt to understand/explain why people act the way that they do; you clearly have no interest in that whatsoever. Your choice.

He's really taking the easy road, isn't he?


I wouldn't personally advocate violent reprisals against the pondlife who perpetrated this latest attack. But people are angry, and rightly so, because these things happen and the perpetrators - who knew exactly what the potential consequences of their actions were - are protected by anonymity. They will then be further protected by social enquiry reports and the like, all of which will basically be built around Blake Morrison's and the Guardian's approach to crime. The perpetrators will end up being portrayed as victims, and the victims forgotten. They will reoffend sooner rather than later. And next time they may succeed in killing someone.

How do you know they 'knew exactly what the potential consequences of their action were' - what exactly are you basing that on? Presumably you've just read the article like everyone else.

You'd prefer them to be named? Why?

What, out of interest, do you think the fundamental basis for a justice system should be?

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------


Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.


I agree. There's absolutely no 'public interest' served by publishing all that.

Sadly, though, there's a lot of 'interest' among the 'public' in knowing all the salacious details.

Gotta get right out there and sell those newspapers, bud. :rolleyes:

Yup, and yup again.

[Gus]

I stand by it. I think that a grown man wanting to batter three children to 'within an inch of their lives' by why of punishment for their behaviour is a lunatic; therefore I called him a lunatic.

I think three children battering, demoralising & to a degree sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl is the actions of lunatics.

I do agree that we need to establish why people commit such crimes, but in this case, bad upbringing etc...:blah: doesn't wash with me so I will stand by my views, like I said previously they are not correct but nor where the actions of those ****bags.

I am not a lunatic, just a guy who hopes that justic is served but knowing this country it wont be hence the frustrating comments.

[Dashing Bob S]

I think it's important we know what people as young as that are capable of.

Terrible stuff. The neds really are getting beyond a joke in Scotland :bitchy:

And they used to be so nice as well.

[Dashing Bob S]

Sounds like a highly dysfunctional group of kids with a disturbed dynamic going on between them.

I'd suggest that a good few, if not all of those children were exhibiting problems for some time and that this bullying (thought not as extreme) was far from a one-off within that group. It was probably heading towards an incident like this for some time.

So for anyone to suggest that the parents have no culpability in this is beyond the pale. Yes, fourteen year olds are often very difficult to communicate with and keep tabs on, but a gang of them shouldn't be wandering the city centre drunk on cider at all hours.

[PiemanP]

That story is disgusting, but it doesnt surprise me.
I was that age not so long ago, and this stuff happens a lot.
Not normally is it taken to this level, but it still goes on.

To erradicate the problem of anti-social behaviour in Scotlands youth is pretty much impossible IMO, however a good start would be to give these neds some proper punishment. Being realistic, all these neds are going to get is a few years in a 'young offenders' where they will get to live out a cooshty life.

We should be locking them up in real prisions, treating them like the sh*t they are, and coming down harder on the parents. Maybe then Kids might think twice before commiting crimes of this nature!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.

:agree:

[Betty Boop]

They apparently attacked two women, before the assault on the young girl.
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Omni-Centre-torture-girls-were.5608691.jp

[Dashing Bob S]

They apparently attacked two women, before the assault on the young girl.
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Omni-Centre-torture-girls-were.5608691.jp

It seems that it was classic case of very two disturbed young girls getting together and acting out their angst. I feel for the young girl who was enticed out of the youth club but it seems poor judgment to allow herself to be befriended by such a disturbed duo. Where were her real friends?

[Judas Iscariot]

That story is disgusting, but it doesnt surprise me.
I was that age not so long ago, and this stuff happens a lot.
Not normally is it taken to this level, but it still goes on.

To erradicate the problem of anti-social behaviour in Scotlands youth is pretty much impossible IMO, however a good start would be to give these neds some proper punishment. Being realistic, all these neds are going to get is a few years in a 'young offenders' where they will get to live out a cooshty life.

We should be locking them up in real prisions, treating them like the sh*t they are, and coming down harder on the parents. Maybe then Kids might think twice before commiting crimes of this nature!

And that would work why?

Of course, no adult that's ever done time has come out a worse person than before or went on to reoffend after release..

[Gus]

And that would work why?

Of course, no adult that's ever done time has come out a worse person than before or went on to reoffend after release..

I agree, but sending them to a young offenders will not serve any good what so ever. Everyone has their own views what they consider to be justice or as someone pointed out my justice is the act of a lunatic:grr::bye:, people will just have to agree to disagree.

[Hibrandenburg]

Unfortunately many parents of my generation have failed their kids. Choosing to indulge in their own selfish needs instead of those of the children.

It's no wonder that many kids nowadays have little or no respect for their elders, the law and society in general. What respect have they been shown, they must be constantly asking themselves "what do adults bring to the table?"

Shocking crime, but I fear there is worse to come.

[HIBERNIALEITH]

The poster who state that we do not need to know the details, in my opinion, are wrong. Possibly because I spent last year in Spain and when you watch the Spanish news there are no boundaries to what they show you. Soldiers in Afghanistan actually pictured in the streets killed, rather than show the aftermath of where they were killed! At first I was stunned but I actually began to understand that what they were showing was in fact what was REALLY happening! Here they tell you names of soldiers nothing to do with what they are really up against!

Yes I know that has nothing to do with this story but we have been "covered in cotton wool" with news here, now they are beginning to tell it like it really happened!

Personally, since the day my daughter was born in 2002 I vowed if anyone touched her in any way (obviously not in the "normal" playground fight) I would do time for it! I have never changed my mind on this moral I have. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions and there will always be disagreement!

[Antifa Hibs]

I wonder what the parents of these two twisted indivuduals are like? I could just be sterotyping but i'd hazard a guess that they will be junkie alcoholic types, I seem to see them more and more around these area's. No care in the world for their kids welfare, only interested in their next hit or were the next cheap bottle of cider is coming from, when you've got parents like that it's no wonder why alot of kids in the estates are so ****ed, although, make no mistake, i'm not making excuses in any way shape or form for what they done.

Anyway, heart goes out to the wee lassie, hopefully she pulls through it all.

[Woody1985]

Unfortunately many parents of my generation have failed their kids. Choosing to indulge in their own selfish needs instead of those of the children.

It's no wonder that many kids nowadays have little or no respect for their elders, the law and society in general. What respect have they been shown, they must be constantly asking themselves "what do adults bring to the table?"

Shocking crime, but I fear there is worse to come.

Agree, when I was 17ish, 6 years ago or so there were fights between people all the time but that's what it was, a fight. 6 years on, you've got all these dafties that are not 17/18 running about wi knives trying to stab each other thinking they're hard as ****. Without a knife most of them are pussies who canny fight sleep.

My little cousin was stabbed at 16 a year or so ago. The blade hit his shoulder blade and stuck in it, half an inch lower and he'd be deid.

Wait til a generation or two after that. You think now is bad, just wait!

[Antifa Hibs]

Agree, when I was 17ish, 6 years ago or so there were fights between people all the time but that's what it was, a fight. 6 years on, you've got all these dafties that are not 17/18 running about wi knives trying to stab each other thinking they're hard as ****. Without a knife most of them are pussies who canny fight sleep.

My little cousin was stabbed at 16 a year or so ago. The blade hit his shoulder blade and stuck in it, half an inch lower and he'd be deid.

Wait til a generation or two after that. You think now is bad, just wait!

Knife crime is getting worse, defo.

10 years ago if some wee pr1cks were giving it the big one I wouldn't think twice about confronting them and telling them to beat, these days though I do as alot of the wee f@nnies wouldn't think twice about sticking a blade in ye, espeically when they're fired up on the buckie and the white powder.

Carry a knife should get you national service.

[Woody1985]

Knife crime is getting worse, defo.

10 years ago if some wee pr1cks were giving it the big one I wouldn't think twice about confronting them and telling them to beat, these days though I do as alot of the wee f@nnies wouldn't think twice about sticking a blade in ye, espeically when they're fired up on the buckie and the white powder.

Carry a knife should get you national service.

When I was younger we used to associate it with being a Glasgow thing. It's crept into Edinburgh and is one of many reasons I can't be arsed with this place anymore. If I had the financial means I'd be out of here tonight.

TBH I find that all the dafties around here are on Es, MDMA or vallies. The coke is usually too expensive for all the wee *****, unless they're selling it that is.

Coke is becoming a major problem in Edinburgh, certainly over the last 2 years the place has exploded with it. What I've noticed that is worrying is that people are starting to get licked and stabbed for £50/£100 debts.

[MrRobot]

If the attackers never got disturbed, they may very well have continued until they killed her. Jail them, regardless of age. Completely sickening.

Hope the girl recovers.

[libernian]

och people get in fights at that age (no excusing it but it does happen), its the naked bit that i think is so utterly unhuman, heartless and wrong. jail em n get them on the sex offenders list.

lifes a bit harsh as was suggested earlier.

[Steve-O]

Hard to provide any solutions really. In reality, wherever they go whether it be jail, or young offenders institutes, they are probably going to meet other radges, and remain radges themselves with no interest whatsoever in rehabilitation.

It's easy for sensible people like ourselves to say "send them to jail" and think that they'll suddenly have a good look at themselves and turn over a new leaf. The sad fact is that these bams do not seem to care about their futures, or much of anything other than "battering wide c**ts", getting pished / high, and being the "hardest" person in their peer group. That basically seems to be it for these characters in life and I honestly don't know how things can change?

Anyone?

[ArabHibee]

och people get in fights at that age (no excusing it but it does happen), its the naked bit that i think is so utterly unhuman, heartless and wrong. jail em n get them on the sex offenders list.

lifes a bit harsh as was suggested earlier.

Could you go on the sex offenders list for something like this though?

[hibsbollah]

Agree, when I was 17ish, 6 years ago or so there were fights between people all the time but that's what it was, a fight. 6 years on, you've got all these dafties that are not 17/18 running about wi knives trying to stab each other thinking they're hard as ****. Without a knife most of them are pussies who canny fight sleep.

My little cousin was stabbed at 16 a year or so ago. The blade hit his shoulder blade and stuck in it, half an inch lower and he'd be deid.

Wait til a generation or two after that. You think now is bad, just wait!

Adults always think the current generation of young people are the most degenerate. Its always been like that and always will be.

[Steve-O]

Could you go on the sex offenders list for something like this though?

Too young in this case I would imagine.

Sounds like there was a sexual element to it, but the charge doesn't really have any sexual offence related to it so I doubt it here.

[New Corrie]

All the Do Gooder Lefties continually tell us that harsh punishment doesn't work, well, we will never know until we give it a try. One thing that is for sure is that the Left Wing approach to crime doesn't work. Social workers, human rights, civil liberties, legal aid, background reports, early release, open prisons etc etc....It doesn't work! The burgeoning Underclass and the crime that they bring will just get worse and worse until someone gets a hold of this! It's so typical of Britain that the victim always plays second fiddle to the perpetrator.

Execution, Boot Camps, National Service, Birching, stopping them breeding etc...I'd be right up for it all, but sadly we will never know if it works as we've signed up to all this European Communism that restricts us from punishing accordingly. The Scottish Parliament have a £60 million purse set aside to pay prisoners who had to slop out, and the current administration are hellbent on this early release programme which has been proven to put law abiding citizens at risk. No wonder they are pressing to get prisoners a vote. They are the criminal's friend!

[khib70]

:hilarious

Amazing.

I stand by it. I think that a grown man wanting to batter three children to 'within an inch of their lives' by why of punishment for their behaviour is a lunatic; therefore I called him a lunatic.



It's not my Guardian piece, I just posted a link to an article that I think is very good.

And yeah, that's right - it's an attempt to clear them of any responsibility for their actions, deary me. It's an attempt to understand/explain why people act the way that they do; you clearly have no interest in that whatsoever. Your choice.

He's really taking the easy road, isn't he?



How do you know they 'knew exactly what the potential consequences of their action were' - what exactly are you basing that on? Presumably you've just read the article like everyone else.

You'd prefer them to be named? Why?

What, out of interest, do you think the fundamental basis for a justice system should be?

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------





Yup, and yup again.
Lunatics act irrationally. However morally reprehensible it might be, there's nothing irrational about anyone wanting to beat seven shades out of such as the perpetrators of this crime.

And as for Blake Morrison ( who, you neglect to mention for the benefit of the rest of us, is a poet FFS, and no more qualified to comment than anyone else), I repeat, he is indulging in the classic liberal process of exoneration by understanding. Society is to blame. Capitalism, poverty, social exclusion:blah: This was a calculated act of malice, originated by the individuals concerned.

How do I know they were aware of the potential consequences of their actions? What a stupid question! They didn't know that repeatedly kicking someone in the head might kill them?? They didn't think that stripping, sexually degrading and seriously assaulting someone might traumatise them mentally? Every human action is the result of a choice, the consequences of which are the responsibility of the individual. At every stage in the squalid and inhuman treatment of this young girl, these people had the choice of not doing what they did.

Yes, they should be named, if convicted. It's not society's job to protect the guilty. And that leads on to what the basis of a system of justice should be. Protect the innocent, punish the guilty. Simples. Judge the actions regardless of motivation. Some actions are inexcusable, yet we have a whole industry spanning several professions whose purpose is to excuse the guilty.

[New Corrie]

Lunatics act irrationally. However morally reprehensible it might be, there's nothing irrational about anyone wanting to beat seven shades out of such as the perpetrators of this crime.

And as for Blake Morrison ( who, you neglect to mention for the benefit of the rest of us, is a poet FFS, and no more qualified to comment than anyone else), I repeat, he is indulging in the classic liberal process of exoneration by understanding. Society is to blame. Capitalism, poverty, social exclusion:blah: This was a calculated act of malice, originated by the individuals concerned.

How do I know they were aware of the potential consequences of their actions? What a stupid question! They didn't know that repeatedly kicking someone in the head might kill them?? They didn't think that stripping, sexually degrading and seriously assaulting someone might traumatise them mentally? Every human action is the result of a choice, the consequences of which are the responsibility of the individual. At every stage in the squalid and inhuman treatment of this young girl, these people had the choice of not doing what they did.

Yes, they should be named, if convicted. It's not society's job to protect the guilty. And that leads on to what the basis of a system of justice should be. Protect the innocent, punish the guilty. Simples. Judge the actions regardless of motivation. Some actions are inexcusable, yet we have a whole industry spanning several professions whose purpose is to excuse the guilty.



Great post:top marks

[Dashing Bob S]

Lunatics act irrationally. However morally reprehensible it might be, there's nothing irrational about anyone wanting to beat seven shades out of such as the perpetrators of this crime.

And as for Blake Morrison ( who, you neglect to mention for the benefit of the rest of us, is a poet FFS, and no more qualified to comment than anyone else), I repeat, he is indulging in the classic liberal process of exoneration by understanding. Society is to blame. Capitalism, poverty, social exclusion:blah: This was a calculated act of malice, originated by the individuals concerned.

How do I know they were aware of the potential consequences of their actions? What a stupid question! They didn't know that repeatedly kicking someone in the head might kill them?? They didn't think that stripping, sexually degrading and seriously assaulting someone might traumatise them mentally? Every human action is the result of a choice, the consequences of which are the responsibility of the individual. At every stage in the squalid and inhuman treatment of this young girl, these people had the choice of not doing what they did.

Yes, they should be named, if convicted. It's not society's job to protect the guilty. And that leads on to what the basis of a system of justice should be. Protect the innocent, punish the guilty. Simples. Judge the actions regardless of motivation. Some actions are inexcusable, yet we have a whole industry spanning several professions whose purpose is to excuse the guilty.

Agree with this up to a point, but it's ultimately a limited and thus facile analysis. We obviously have to do these things you suggest, but we also have to try and determine cause rather effect. If something is rotten at the heart of our society and is a root contributor to anti-social behaviour, we have to take steps to indentify and alter or eradicate that, otherwise we are just fighting fires and throwing more and more people in prison at the taxpayers expense.

In the 80's we restructured the economy, promoted the cult of individualism, created mass unemployment and low-status, part-time jobs. In doing so we also created a hopeless underclass who's only real chance of advancement was in the black economy, dealing drugs to their peers; people rendered miserable by no education, housing or employment opportunities. Now we are dealing with the children of this class of people. You can't rip the social fabric out of a nation and pretend that nothing has happened and that people are behaving badly or carrying knifes or getting wasted on drugs because there's something in the water.

As far I'm concerned, the youths who perpetrated this attack are probably way beyond redemption and rehabilitation. I don't care what punishment they recieve, I just don't want them walking the streets. What concerns me is that many parts of our city, many homes and many families have been written off by us a society, and the children they spawn are basically being bred for this behaviour. We've set up these anti-social behaviour factories, and we can devise all the grotesque punishments we like, it won't deter anyone who is so alienated and emotionally brutalised that they feel they have nothing to lose.

[Woody1985]

Agree with this up to a point, but it's ultimately a limited and thus facile analysis. We obviously have to do these things you suggest, but we also have to try and determine cause rather effect. If something is rotten at the heart of our society and is a root contributor to anti-social behaviour, we have to take steps to indentify and alter or eradicate that, otherwise we are just fighting fires and throwing more and more people in prison at the taxpayers expense.

In the 80's we restructured the economy, promoted the cult of individualism, created mass unemployment and low-status, part-time jobs. In doing so we also created a hopeless underclass who's only real chance of advancement was in the black economy, dealing drugs to their peers; people rendered miserable by no education, housing or employment opportunities. Now we are dealing with the children of this class of people. You can't rip the social fabric out of a nation and pretend that nothing has happened and that people are behaving badly or carrying knifes or getting wasted on drugs because there's something in the water.

As far I'm concerned, the youths who perpetrated this attack are probably way beyond redemption and rehabilitation. I don't care what punishment they recieve, I just don't want them walking the streets. What concerns me is that many parts of our city, many homes and many families have been written off by us a society, and the children they spawn are basically being bred for this behaviour. We've set up these anti-social behaviour factories, and we can devise all the grotesque punishments we like, it won't deter anyone who is so alienated and emotionally brutalised that they feel they have nothing to lose.

You're correct in that we're just fighting fires if we don't get to the root cause. The people who are committing these crimes now should be put away, you've outlines reasons for this behaviour and IMHO there is no way to change or rehabilitate these people.

In relation to all your points regarding the class created and the associated problems, there's no easy way to reverse that, that's even if there is a way which I very much doubt. We can plug away at it but these people should be locked up for a long time.

[LiverpoolHibs]

All the Do Gooder Lefties continually tell us that harsh punishment doesn't work, well, we will never know until we give it a try. One thing that is for sure is that the Left Wing approach to crime doesn't work. Social workers, human rights, civil liberties, legal aid, background reports, early release, open prisons etc etc....It doesn't work! The burgeoning Underclass and the crime that they bring will just get worse and worse until someone gets a hold of this! It's so typical of Britain that the victim always plays second fiddle to the perpetrator.

Execution, Boot Camps, National Service, Birching, stopping them breeding etc...I'd be right up for it all, but sadly we will never know if it works as we've signed up to all this European Communism that restricts us from punishing accordingly. The Scottish Parliament have a £60 million purse set aside to pay prisoners who had to slop out, and the current administration are hellbent on this early release programme which has been proven to put law abiding citizens at risk. No wonder they are pressing to get prisoners a vote. They are the criminal's friend!

'Left-wing approach to crime', 'European Communism' - do you actually believe this yourself?

And yeah, this quasi-fascistic (actually I'm not sure about the quasi-) response to crime has never been tried anywhere, ever - has it?


Lunatics act irrationally. However morally reprehensible it might be, there's nothing irrational about anyone wanting to beat seven shades out of such as the perpetrators of this crime.

Eh? Of course it's irrational! It's completely pointless and useless act that would run counter to any logical analysis of the situation. It would purely be an expression of the understandable emotional response to the case.


And as for Blake Morrison ( who, you neglect to mention for the benefit of the rest of us, is a poet FFS, and no more qualified to comment than anyone else), I repeat, he is indulging in the classic liberal process of exoneration by understanding. Society is to blame. Capitalism, poverty, social exclusion:blah: This was a calculated act of malice, originated by the individuals concerned.

Why would I mention it, why is it relevant? Where did I say he was more qualified to comment than anyone else? What are you talking about?

And I'll also repeat. If you wish to have no interest in attempting to understand why people (children, adults) act the way that they do, then that is entirely your choice...


How do I know they were aware of the potential consequences of their actions? What a stupid question! They didn't know that repeatedly kicking someone in the head might kill them?? They didn't think that stripping, sexually degrading and seriously assaulting someone might traumatise them mentally? Every human action is the result of a choice, the consequences of which are the responsibility of the individual. At every stage in the squalid and inhuman treatment of this young girl, these people had the choice of not doing what they did.

But there are innumerable reasons that might (stressed) mean they have an impaired understanding of actions and their consequences (their position as children might be one of these). My point is that you have no idea.


Yes, they should be named, if convicted. It's not society's job to protect the guilty. And that leads on to what the basis of a system of justice should be. Protect the innocent, punish the guilty. Simples. Judge the actions regardless of motivation. Some actions are inexcusable, yet we have a whole industry spanning several professions whose purpose is to excuse the guilty.

You seem to have an incredible disinterest in what is actually achieved by any action or punisment meated out to them. Presuming that you can recognise the incredibly harmful things that could result from naming them, what is actually achieved?

[J-C]

I remember well this story when it came out a few months ago and was truly sickened by what took place. Unfortunately this is what is happening in the world today, ferrel kids running amock, high on drugs and alchohol doing what they please.

[Tazio]

The young lad involved in the crime seems to be getting off rather lightly in my opinion. It sounds very much like he choreographed the whole thing and was the leader of the attack while making sure he didn't get his hands dirty.

To use a hugely exaggerated comparison, Charles Manson didn't do any of the killing the Manson family were guilty of, he just planned and encouraged it.

[Dashing Bob S]

The young lad involved in the crime seems to be getting off rather lightly in my opinion. It sounds very much like he choreographed the whole thing and was the leader of the attack while making sure he didn't get his hands dirty.

To use a hugely exaggerated comparison, Charles Manson didn't do any of the killing the Manson family were guilty of, he just planned and encouraged it.

Yes, I agree. It seems to me that the dynamic between the two girls was highly disturbed, but this young lad was certainly the spark that encouraged them into violence. As is so often the case with women and violence, they seek a male figure of approval. I don't think your Manson analogy is that wide of the mark, though it obviously doesn't excuse the actions of those girls.

[Dashing Bob S]

You're correct in that we're just fighting fires if we don't get to the root cause. The people who are committing these crimes now should be put away, you've outlines reasons for this behaviour and IMHO there is no way to change or rehabilitate these people.

In relation to all your points regarding the class created and the associated problems, there's no easy way to reverse that, that's even if there is a way which I very much doubt. We can plug away at it but these people should be locked up for a long time.

I don't have a clue as to whether or not the 'people' involved can or can't be rehabilitated. The empirical evidence either for or against this seems to differ depending on which set of statistics are deployed.

More to the point is the question of whether society should invest scarce resources to trying to rehabilitate someone who has committed such a henious crime when there are obviously other policy priorities.

I think we do have to plug away at it, or even attack it full on with major investment in family and personal education, housing and employment. Without doing this we basically might as well admit defeat and live in fear or turn our society into a fascist, militaristic police state, where we have no individual freedom to go about our business in the manner we choose. Either way, we end up spending money on this problem, better to do it in ways that guarantees our freedom as a society.

On the same matter, why no CCTV in this city centre car park? It seems to intrude everywhere else in our lives.

[Phil D. Rolls]

All the Do Gooder Lefties continually tell us that harsh punishment doesn't work, well, we will never know until we give it a try. One thing that is for sure is that the Left Wing approach to crime doesn't work. Social workers, human rights, civil liberties, legal aid, background reports, early release, open prisons etc etc....It doesn't work! The burgeoning Underclass and the crime that they bring will just get worse and worse until someone gets a hold of this! It's so typical of Britain that the victim always plays second fiddle to the perpetrator.

Execution, Boot Camps, National Service, Birching, stopping them breeding etc...I'd be right up for it all, but sadly we will never know if it works as we've signed up to all this European Communism that restricts us from punishing accordingly. The Scottish Parliament have a £60 million purse set aside to pay prisoners who had to slop out, and the current administration are hellbent on this early release programme which has been proven to put law abiding citizens at risk. No wonder they are pressing to get prisoners a vote. They are the criminal's friend!

Don't know if you've heard this, but we had corporal punishment and hard labour in this country, and it didn't work. The criminals still committed crimes. The wicked and perverted - which these kids are - still existed.

On the broader subject of the breakdown of society, I hate to be a do gooder lefty, but I beleive that if you give people a sense of purpose and dignity through providing them with hope for the future, it will be a lot more effective than any punishment.

A generation or so ago, people had the prospect of a life's employment to look forward to. Now, nothing is guaranteed, so is it any wonder that people have no respect for themselves or others.

The right wing alternative seems to be - thrash them till they comply. The problem is that once you've battered people a few times it really doesn't persuade them to change.

[hibsdaft]

The wicked and perverted - which these kids are - still existed.

and the very same wicked and perverted actually targeted the jobs were they could act out their perversions with the backing of the law in the roles CG's is suggesting we recreate. as an aside, this is a difference between liberal and illiberal rather than left and right. you'll find the Soviet Union was not exactly soft on the likes of this kid.

this incident itself is totally shocking and that's why everyone has posted on this thread - that its so shocking imo reflects the fact that incidents of wicked perversion such as this are rare.

[Phil D. Rolls]

and the very same wicked and perverted actually targeted the jobs were they could act out their perversions with the backing of the law in the roles CG's is suggesting we recreate. as an aside, this is a difference between liberal and illiberal rather than left and right. you'll find the Soviet Union was not exactly soft on the likes of this kid.

this incident itself is totally shocking and that's why everyone has posted on this thread - that its so shocking imo reflects the fact that incidents of wicked perversion such as this are rare.

Blaming the Soviet Union for the failure of socialism is like blaming Jesus for the Spanish Inquisition.

I think you are right, I prefer to think that things like this are very rare. Like tornados, and floods, they are freaks of nature that we cannot do anything about.

My previous point was really a reply to the suggestion that harder punishments will solve everything.

[Woody1985]

This is what I was talking about in an earlier post.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8233822.stm

[hibsdaft]

Blaming the Soviet Union for the failure of socialism is like blaming Jesus for the Spanish Inquisition.

I think you are right, I prefer to think that things like this are very rare. Like tornados, and floods, they are freaks of nature that we cannot do anything about.

My previous point was really a reply to the suggestion that harder punishments will solve everything.

sorry - half of my post was directed to corrie greens (in responce to his "left wing approach to crime" wind-up fantasy bit ;-) ) but i forgot it was you i'd quoted.

[Sir David Gray]

3 years in a Y.O. unit, a HUGE DOSE of councilling and a couple of trips white water rafting.

That really wouldn't surprise me. :bitchy:


Life imprisonment is a extremely harsh for this crime considering it was perpretrated by juveniles. The crime is very serious but to suggest such a punishment in a complete overreaction to the story.

I honestly couldn't care less what age they are. If you are capable of committing a crime like that, I believe that you should be locked up for a very long time.

My thoughts are solely with the young girl who had to endure this horrific attack. The fact that the people who committed this offence are juveniles is of absolutely no relevance to me and I do not believe that it should be taken into consideration when passing sentence on them.

At 13 and 14, you are perfectly aware of the difference between right and wrong and they knew what they were doing to that girl was wrong but they did it anyway.

They should all be handed lengthy prison sentences for this crime but borders.cabbage might not actually be too far away in his assessment that these three may just be offered counselling sessions with a youth worker, a couple of years in a YOI and then countless trips to Hampden, M&D's etc. when they get out, to try and bribe them into behaving.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if that ended up being the case.

[BEEJ]

Don't know if you've heard this, but we had corporal punishment and hard labour in this country, and it didn't work. The criminals still committed crimes. The wicked and perverted - which these kids are - still existed.

On the broader subject of the breakdown of society, I hate to be a do gooder lefty, but I beleive that if you give people a sense of purpose and dignity through providing them with hope for the future, it will be a lot more effective than any punishment.

A generation or so ago, people had the prospect of a life's employment to look forward to. Now, nothing is guaranteed, so is it any wonder that people have no respect for themselves or others.

The right wing alternative seems to be - thrash them till they comply. The problem is that once you've battered people a few times it really doesn't persuade them to change.
Noble thoughts.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, there also has to be a deterrent.

If there were no unpleasnt consequences for committing heinous crimes but only the prospect of several years in a soft-touch rehabilitation programme, people would go out and do whatever they pleased. And inevitably the innocent and weaker in society would suffer.

(And another thought. Was there really the same degree of perversion in crime 70 or 80 years ago or before? If there was, why did Brady and Hindley cause so much of an outcry with their appalling crime in the 1960s?)

[CropleyWasGod]

That really wouldn't surprise me. :bitchy:





that these three may just be offered counselling sessions with a youth worker, It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if that ended up being the case.

... as they should. Apart from the deterrent and punishment aspect of our system, there must also be a rehabilitation element as well. Whether or not it's "the parents fault" or they're just evil, kids of that age must be given every chance to mend themselves. It's part of what we are as a society.

[Green Mikey]

That really wouldn't surprise me. :bitchy:

I honestly couldn't care less what age they are. If you are capable of committing a crime like that, I believe that you should be locked up for a very long time.

My thoughts are solely with the young girl who had to endure this horrific attack. The fact that the people who committed this offence are juveniles is of absolutely no relevance to me and I do not believe that it should be taken into consideration when passing sentence on them.

At 13 and 14, you are perfectly aware of the difference between right and wrong and they knew what they were doing to that girl was wrong but they did it anyway.

They should all be handed lengthy prison sentences for this crime but borders.cabbage might not actually be too far away in his assessment that these three may just be offered counselling sessions with a youth worker, a couple of years in a YOI and then countless trips to Hampden, M&D's etc. when they get out, to try and bribe them into behaving.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if that ended up being the case.

Falkirk, on many other threads you have been the great defender of the Christian faith however none of this seems to be evident in your vitriolic condemnation of this crime.

Do you not agree with the New Testament and the concepts of forgiveness and 'turn the other cheek'? If you do, it is not clear in your posts.

Personally, I think that the perpetrators deserve serious punishment however you seem to believe that thy should be allowed no quarter. How does this reconcile with Christian beliefs?

[Jack]

Hard to provide any solutions really. In reality, wherever they go whether it be jail, or young offenders institutes, they are probably going to meet other radges, and remain radges themselves with no interest whatsoever in rehabilitation.

It's easy for sensible people like ourselves to say "send them to jail" and think that they'll suddenly have a good look at themselves and turn over a new leaf. The sad fact is that these bams do not seem to care about their futures, or much of anything other than "battering wide c**ts", getting pished / high, and being the "hardest" person in their peer group. That basically seems to be it for these characters in life and I honestly don't know how things can change?

Anyone?

Perhaps there should be a different type of sentencing.

There's a common theme here rounded up by the term ‘feral kids’ which I think describes them perfectly. Society has lost more than one generation. How these feral families are brought back in to society before crimes like this are committed I’m not sure.

But given these families have had no positive guidance from role models perhaps we will have to consider educating them so that the errors/negligence of their upbringing is addressed. Sounds a bit George Orwellian!

What we do know is that they will inevitably engage with the criminal justice system. Maybe they should be locked up / removed from society [for a minimum period depending on the crime and] until they appreciate what their role within society should be i.e. they get 3 years but if they don’t understand and engage with the concept of living ‘normally’ within society they stay locked up until they do!

Maybe these social workers etc. who seemingly work so hard to keep these criminals out of jail and keep them on the straight and narrow on the outside should work with these criminals in jail.

[Sir David Gray]

Falkirk, on many other threads you have been the great defender of the Christian faith however none of this seems to be evident in your vitriolic condemnation of this crime.

Do you not agree with the New Testament and the concepts of forgiveness and 'turn the other cheek'? If you do, it is not clear in your posts.

Personally, I think that the perpetrators deserve serious punishment however you seem to believe that thy should be allowed no quarter. How does this reconcile with Christian beliefs?

A lot of people seem to think that being a Christian=being soft on people who commit crime.

I believe that it is only the people who are the victims of crime who are in a position to forgive. If I was ever the victim of crime, as a Christian, I would have to try very hard to find it in my heart to forgive the person who committed the crime against me.

However, I also believe that if you commit a crime, you have to face the consequences of your actions. That means that if the crime is serious enough then the punishment should be a lengthy custodial sentence.

"Turning the other cheek" also has many interpretations. I would personally take it to mean that you shouldn't fight violence with violence. I don't believe that it means that people who commit serious crimes shouldn't be put in prison.

These three people knew what they were doing and have probably scarred that young girl for life, in an unimaginable way. They should be locked up for a very long time.

[BravestHibs]

A lot of people seem to think that being a Christian=being soft on people who commit crime.

I believe that it is only the people who are the victims of crime who are in a position to forgive. If I was ever the victim of crime, as a Christian, I would have to try very hard to find it in my heart to forgive the person who committed the crime against me.

However, I also believe that if you commit a crime, you have to face the consequences of your actions. That means that if the crime is serious enough then the punishment should be a lengthy custodial sentence.

"Turning the other cheek" also has many interpretations. I would personally take it to mean that you shouldn't fight violence with violence. I don't believe that it means that people who commit serious crimes shouldn't be put in prison.

These three people knew what they were doing and have probably scarred that young girl for life, in an unimaginable way. They should be locked up for a very long time.

I always thought the opposite actually. Certainly when you look at the right wing in the US anyway. Despite bleating on about forgiveness and quoting the bible as though it's perfectly normal to do so in a secular society, I find revenge to be their main motivator. As seems to be the case with Falkirk.

With the second point I highlighted, would you say that we can only forgive as individuals or would we not all be better off if we could forgive as a society?

[CropleyWasGod]

A lot of people seem to think that being a Christian=being soft on people who commit crime.

I believe that it is only the people who are the victims of crime who are in a position to forgive. If I was ever the victim of crime, as a Christian, I would have to try very hard to find it in my heart to forgive the person who committed the crime against me.

.

To mix the Biblical metaphors, that's a very Pontius Pilate response. As the poster before put it, society also has that power.

Would you not also accept, as a Christian, that redemption has to play its part too? The perpetrators, especially given their age (and, although not using it as an excuse, probably a pretty awful life already), should be given a chance to redeem themselves. And I do mean that AFTER they have been punished.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Noble thoughts.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, there also has to be a deterrent.

If there were no unpleasnt consequences for committing heinous crimes but only the prospect of several years in a soft-touch rehabilitation programme, people would go out and do whatever they pleased. And inevitably the innocent and weaker in society would suffer.

(And another thought. Was there really the same degree of perversion in crime 70 or 80 years ago or before? If there was, why did Brady and Hindley cause so much of an outcry with their appalling crime in the 1960s?)

I think human nature is at the heart of the dilemma. I beleive that the majority of people don't need the deterrent, because it is against our nature to inflict such cruelty. Those who have it in their nature won't be deterred.

I beleive that cruellty has always been something that is there in some people, so I would think there would be plenty crimes like this 70 or 80 years ago - think of Jack the Ripper, for example.

[Phil D. Rolls]

A lot of people seem to think that being a Christian=being soft on people who commit crime.

I believe that it is only the people who are the victims of crime who are in a position to forgive. If I was ever the victim of crime, as a Christian, I would have to try very hard to find it in my heart to forgive the person who committed the crime against me.

However, I also believe that if you commit a crime, you have to face the consequences of your actions. That means that if the crime is serious enough then the punishment should be a lengthy custodial sentence.

"Turning the other cheek" also has many interpretations. I would personally take it to mean that you shouldn't fight violence with violence. I don't believe that it means that people who commit serious crimes shouldn't be put in prison.

These three people knew what they were doing and have probably scarred that young girl for life, in an unimaginable way. They should be locked up for a very long time.

Sorry mate, I don't want you to think this is part of a witch hunt - I respect your right to your opinions, even if I don't agree with them all. I honestly thought the core principle of christianity was about forgiveness. I can't see how some of the stuff some fundamentalists come out with (again, not getting at you) squares with what Jesus said.

[Sir David Gray]

I always thought the opposite actually. Certainly when you look at the right wing in the US anyway. Despite bleating on about forgiveness and quoting the bible as though it's perfectly normal to do so in a secular society, I find revenge to be their main motivator. As seems to be the case with Falkirk.

With the second point I highlighted, would you say that we can only forgive as individuals or would we not all be better off if we could forgive as a society?

I believe that it is up to the person who has been wronged to decide if they feel able to forgive. I don't think that anyone else is in a position to forgive, apart from the relatives of someone who has been murdered, perhaps.


To mix the Biblical metaphors, that's a very Pontius Pilate response. As the poster before put it, society also has that power.

Would you not also accept, as a Christian, that redemption has to play its part too? The perpetrators, especially given their age (and, although not using it as an excuse, probably a pretty awful life already), should be given a chance to redeem themselves. And I do mean that AFTER they have been punished.

Of course, redemption is a huge part of Christianity.

I have seen countless TV shows that have featured people who have been involved in serious crime, have spent time in prison and then they have become Christians and have chosen to do something good with their life and have spoken out against knife crime, gun crime or whatever it was they were involved in previously.

It is possible for some people to change but not everyone wants to.

I would be inclined to say that I would be happy to see all criminals released as soon as they show genuine remorse for their crimes but I think it's far too easy for someone to say "Oh yes, I'm really sorry for what I've done and it will never happen again", if they know that kind of comment will probably get them released.


Sorry mate, I don't want you to think this is part of a witch hunt - I respect your right to your opinions, even if I don't agree with them all. I honestly thought the core principle of christianity was about forgiveness. I can't see how some of the stuff some fundamentalists come out with (again, not getting at you) squares with what Jesus said.

I wasn't really saying anything about forgiveness, though as I think it's up to individual people to decide if they want to forgive. If someone was to commit a crime against me, I would need to try hard to forgive that person as that is what Christians should do. What I am saying is, I think everyone who commits a crime, should be punished and if the crime's serious enough then that person should receive a lengthy custodial sentence.

Maybe that isn't what Jesus would say and therefore maybe that makes me a bad Christian. I'll let others judge that for themselves. I can only ever say what I genuinely believe in, on every single issue.

[NaeTechnoHibby]

I believe that it is up to the person who has been wronged to decide if they feel able :yawn: Most deid ..

It is possible for some people to change but not everyone wants to. Righty ho!!

I would be inclined to say that I would be happy to see all criminals released as soon as they show genuine remorse for their crimes but I think it's far too easy for someone to say "Oh yes, I'm really sorry for what I've done and it will never happen again", if they know that kind of comment will probably get them released.
Good oan ye, not my bag though

I wasn't really saying anything about forgiveness, though as I think it's up to individual people to decide if they want to forgive. If someone was to commit a crime against me, I would need to try hard to forgive that person as that is what Christians should do. What I am saying is, I think everyone who commits a crime, should be punished and if the crime's serious enough then that person should receive a lengthy custodial sentence.

And what about arabs throwing sticks an stones at tanks/APV's oan in Palestine :boo hoo:

Maybe that isn't what Jesus would say and therefore maybe that makes me a bad Christian. I'll let others judge that for themselves. I can only ever say what I genuinely believe in, on every single issue.

I have never had a beleilf in organised religion since I was about 10 years old and it hasnae done me any harm :thumbsup:

Load of bollocks tae control people without elections :bitchy:

[Hibrandenburg]

I think human nature is at the heart of the dilemma. I beleive that the majority of people don't need the deterrent, because it is against our nature to inflict such cruelty. Those who have it in their nature won't be deterred.

I beleive that cruellty has always been something that is there in some people, so I would think there would be plenty crimes like this 70 or 80 years ago - think of Jack the Ripper, for example.

:agree:

:top marks

[BEEJ]

I think human nature is at the heart of the dilemma. I beleive that the majority of people don't need the deterrent, because it is against our nature to inflict such cruelty. Those who have it in their nature won't be deterred.
So you would have no punishment in society for heinous crimes as it would derive no ultimate benefit.

Would the same rule apply then to 'lesser' crimes such as car theft or mugging? * Would you believe that human nature is suffciently self-regulating to ensure that in a sudden absence of judicial penalties there would be no upsurge in petty crimes, for example, for the purpose of material gain?

If so, you have far more faith in human nature than I have.

(* After all, it would be a pretty strange legal system if the more serious crimes committed resulted in rehabilitation whilst incarceration awaited the perpetrators of lesser crimes.)


I beleive that cruellty has always been something that is there in some people, so I would think there would be plenty crimes like this 70 or 80 years ago - think of Jack the Ripper, for example.
So why did British society at the time find itself so revulsed by the Brady / Hindley crime - and continued to do so decades later? Perhaps instances of the prolonged physical torture of young children have been far less common in history?

[Phil D. Rolls]

So you would have no punishment in society for heinous crimes as it would derive no ultimate benefit.

Would the same rule apply then to 'lesser' crimes such as car theft or mugging? * Would you believe that human nature is suffciently self-regulating to ensure that in a sudden absence of judicial penalties there would be no upsurge in petty crimes, for example, for the purpose of material gain?

If so, you have far more faith in human nature than I have.

(* After all, it would be a pretty strange legal system if the more serious crimes committed resulted in rehabilitation whilst incarceration awaited the perpetrators of lesser crimes.)


So why did British society at the time find itself so revulsed by the Brady / Hindley crime - and continued to do so decades later? Perhaps instances of the prolonged physical torture of young children have been far less common in history?

I think a punsihment should be used as a deterrent. If it doesn't deter people what is the point?

I would wager that every generation has had its Brady and Hindley. You just have to read the likes of the Illustrated London News from the 19th century, or old copies of the News of the World, to realise that perversion has always been there.

Furthermore, Brady and Hindley were caught, but they were hardly the first people to abduct and torture children. Paedophile rings have been doing it for centuries.

[Woody1985]

I think a punsihment should be used as a deterrent. If it doesn't deter people what is the point?

I would wager that every generation has had its Brady and Hindley. You just have to read the likes of the Illustrated London News from the 19th century, or old copies of the News of the World, to realise that perversion has always been there.

Furthermore, Brady and Hindley were caught, but they were hardly the first people to abduct and torture children. Paedophile rings have been doing it for centuries.

:faf:

That is one of the funniest things I have ever read. People will always commit crime and nothing will deter them. However, keeping them off the streets protects the innocent.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:faf:

That is one of the funniest things I have ever read. People will always commit crime and nothing will deter them. However, keeping them off the streets protects the innocent.

True. A very good argument for imprisonment.

[Woody1985]

True. A very good argument for imprisonment.

What?

You don't think that keeping innocent people safe from being stabbed, mugged, murdered etc is a good enough reason. That should be the main priority of any civilised society. The place would turn into bandit country.

If there was no crime I could comfortably tell you that right now I'd be away to the nearest Dixon's to pick myself up a new 50" TV and a PS3 to play it. Even, better, I'd be telling the delivery driver he's bringing me home.

Community service / prison is enough of a deterrent for me not to do that. However, there will always be people who just don't give a **** and they should be locked up.

No wonder this country is in a complete mess when there are people with views like that. Please, please, please never become a politician.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What?

You don't think that keeping innocent people safe from being stabbed, mugged, murdered etc is a good enough reason. That should be the main priority of any civilised society. The place would turn into bandit country.

If there was no crime I could comfortably tell you that right now I'd be away to the nearest Dixon's to pick myself up a new 50" TV and a PS3 to play it. Even, better, I'd be telling the delivery driver he's bringing me home.

Community service / prison is enough of a deterrent for me not to do that. However, there will always be people who just don't give a **** and they should be locked up.

No wonder this country is in a complete mess when there are people with views like that. Please, please, please never become a politician.

You're so rock n' roll. By the way, which part of "A very good argument for imprisonment." did you not understand?

[hibsbollah]

You're so rock n' roll. By the way, which part of "A very good argument for imprisonment." did you not understand?

I think he thought you were being sarcastic:greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think he thought you were being sarcastic:greengrin

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, used only by fools and idiots, er.....

No, I was serious. It was a good point that Woody made, and he raised something I didn't take the time to consider. That's what's good about debate and discussion, you can test your ideas against other people's and if they point out something you hadn't thought of then youhae learned something.

The alternative is to be entrenched in your views, and argue the same point in the face of evidence that suggests reasonable alternatives. I know I can be arrogant, but I'd like to think I am decent enough to acknowledge a good point.

[hibsbollah]

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, used only by fools and idiots, er.....

No, I was serious. It was a good point that Woody made, and he raised something I didn't take the time to consider. That's what's good about debate and discussion, you can test your ideas against other people's and if they point out something you hadn't thought of then youhae learned something.

The alternative is to be entrenched in your views, and argue the same point in the face of evidence that suggests reasonable alternatives. I know I can be arrogant, but I'd like to think I am decent enough to acknowledge a good point.

To be honest, I was just interested that in the event of a complete breakdown of law and order, Woodys first impulse would be to steal a big TV and a playstation:greengrin

[Golden Bear]

Oh the poor wee sowel!

There are times when I think that defence lawyers are bigger criminals than the people they represent.


http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/121476-resident-evil-attack-teen-refused-bail/

[Woody1985]

To be honest, I was just interested that in the event of a complete breakdown of law and order, Woodys first impulse would be to steal a big TV and a playstation:greengrin

:LOL:

I was in a chilled out mood when writing that. All I could think of was just taking it easy with a beer and COD4 (war game based on American's Vs the East. The irony being that killing innocent people is legal when it's called war!).

Plus, I wasn't in the murdering type mood at that time although I might consider it when FR gets into power :greengrin

[poolman]

Oh the poor wee sowel!

There are times when I think that defence lawyers are bigger criminals than the people they represent.


http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/121476-resident-evil-attack-teen-refused-bail/


What a shame for the poor boy

Maybe a taxpayers trip to Euro Disney would help the poor soul :rolleyes:

[Phil D. Rolls]

:LOL:

I was in a chilled out mood when writing that. All I could think of was just taking it easy with a beer and COD4 (war game based on American's Vs the East. The irony being that killing innocent people is legal when it's called war!).

Plus, I wasn't in the murdering type mood at that time although I might consider it when FR gets into power :greengrin

Yikes!!! :shocked:

[J-C]

Seemingly beaten up a young offenders secure unit............



http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/latestnews/Teen-Omni-Centre-thug-attacked.5629996.jp

[ArabHibee]

Seemingly beaten up a young offenders secure unit............



http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/latestnews/Teen-Omni-Centre-thug-attacked.5629996.jp

Do I feel sorry for him?





:bitchy: Wee tosspot deserves all he gets.

[NOLA]

Oh the poor wee sowel!

There are times when I think that defence lawyers are bigger criminals than the people they represent.


http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/121476-resident-evil-attack-teen-refused-bail/

13+14 yo girls in stilettos:confused: deary me, still at least the boy getting a doing proves the age old adage if your a con then beasts will get done no matter what age cos surely if he's happy to do this at 13 then thank fek he's off the streets before he grows older + stronger + possibly more sadistic

[Phil D. Rolls]

13+14 yo girls in stilettos:confused: deary me, still at least the boy getting a doing proves the age old adage if your a con then beasts will get done no matter what age cos surely if he's happy to do this at 13 then thank fek he's off the streets before he grows older + stronger + possibly more sadistic

Cons, on the whole, are bawbags who want to be liked. If they can score brownie points with right thinking people, whilst engaging in their own favourite pastime of hurting people, it's a no brainer.

[Betty Boop]

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/latestnews/Teenagers-jailed-for-Omni-Centre.5826819.jp

[hibsbollah]

3 years in a Y.O. unit, a HUGE DOSE of councilling and a couple of trips white water rafting.

It was 4 years. Not a bad guess.


The judge ordered that all three should be detained for four years each and also ruled that they should be supervised for a further five years under extended sentences.

He pointed out that during that latter period they can be returned to custody if they breach the terms of their licence.

[Steve-O]

9 year sentence, fair enough IMO :agree:

[Judas Iscariot]

9 year sentence, fair enough IMO :agree:

That's harsh IMO when you look at sentences peedos, drivers who've killed from behind the wheel, drunk drivers and drug dealers etc receive..

These kids are clearly messed up as it is, I don't even want to imagine how messed up they will be upon release..

[Steve-O]

That's harsh IMO when you look at sentences peedos, drivers who've killed from behind the wheel, drunk drivers and drug dealers etc receive..

These kids are clearly messed up as it is, I don't even want to imagine how messed up they will be upon release..

4 years detention, 5 years of what is effectively 'parole' - nothing too harsh there. Sounds like they are better off being detained than at home according to the story.

[Phil D. Rolls]

That's harsh IMO when you look at sentences peedos, drivers who've killed from behind the wheel, drunk drivers and drug dealers etc receive..

These kids are clearly messed up as it is, I don't even want to imagine how messed up they will be upon release..

I would have thought that their best chance of turning their lives around would be to be as far away from their communities as possible. I also hope that the same effort is put into helping the poor victim of this - maybe them being shut away will be a start.

[Judas Iscariot]

Should admin not change the tread title to; Girl 14 0 - Teenage Rogues 3 :confused:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Should admin not change the tread title to; Girl 14 0 - Teenage Rogues 3 :confused:

You are a bad man. :tsk tsk:

[lapsedhibee]

Should admin not change the tread title to; Girl 14 0 - Teenage Rogues 3 :confused:

I'm possibly misunderstanding the protocols here, but shirley that score would only have been appropriate after the original kicking. At the point where the baddies have been sentenced, wouldn't Girl 14 have staged a comeback of Liverpuddleian proportions?

Girl 14 3 Teenage Monsters 3 (HT 0-3)

[Dashing Bob S]

I'm possibly misunderstanding the protocols here, but shirley that score would only have been appropriate after the original kicking. At the point where the baddies have been sentenced, wouldn't Girl 14 have staged a comeback of Liverpuddleian proportions?

Girl 14 3 Teenage Monsters 3 (HT 0-3)

Yes, one of these draws, that sadly, does nobody any good.

[IndieHibby]

I heard about this at the time and now upon reading the details, am even more repulsed by the incident. It turns my stomach.

They knew what they were doing was wrong. Maybe they have not developed empathy, or have been badly mistreated by their own parents (although the fact that he knew his mother would "go mental" if the blood on his shoes was seen suggests that he had at least some boundaries while growing up) or something else in their past which has damaged their own emotional faculties, but under no circumstances does this absolve them even fractionally from the responsibility for their actions.

So, knowing that something is wrong and doing it anyway is criminal behaviour. Lock them up. Solitary confinement (for at least part of their sentence) should at least show them that if they are not prepared to engage in society in a positive way, then society will not engage with them at all. Allowing them to mix with people of their own ilk, or worse, is clearly damaging to society and to the criminals themselves.

Prison = somewhere to put people who are a danger to society
Prison ≠ somewhere where criminals can be rehabilitated

If we could solve this problem, without concurrently giving the impression to the criminal (and the victims) that they are getting the soft option, then we would be on the way to the best justice system we could muster.

It's whether or not we are prepared to pay for this that is the first sticking point, I feel.

In school, detention is the most effective form of deterrent for those who will never be in detention. For those who are in detention, it is generally not a deterrent. In fact, sometimes it is a reward, as the bad kids generally crave positive and calm adult interactions.

I see prison in (somewhat) the same light. They serve their purpose (protect the innocent), but do not offer solutions (rehabilitation).

[MSK]

Should admin not change the tread title to; Girl 14 0 - Teenage Rogues 3 :confused:Eh ..why ..? ...:confused:

[Judas Iscariot]

Eh ..why ..? ...:confused:

Why not?

Boyracers 0 - Roadsafety 3 ring any bells?

[MSK]

Why not?

Boyracers 0 - Roadsafety 3 ring any bells?Aye, so whats the thread title got to do wi Admin ..?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It seems as always that there is an element of truth in both sides of this debate.

I would bet good money that the children who did this are all victims of terrible abuse themselves, beaten, perhaps molested, certainly neglected and exposed to all kind of harsh realities that no child should be - this is not their fault, it is the fault of the ****my parents who cant bring up children without violence, who dont work, who are addcits, who cant communicate without shouting, who have nothing but dysfunctional relationaships themselves and who have probably been sexually abused themselves.

However, while it is not the kids fault they have been turned into feral little animals, equally it is not my fault, your fault, or the girl who got attacked's fault. In my opinion justice should be there to protect the decent majority. In that sense, who can argue that society without the children who did this would be a better, safer place?

Yes the kids are victims of abuse, but that does not excuse what they did.

While i agree with the instinct to clamp down hard on crime, socieities that do this still have those problems. I do beleive however that it could work if done hand in hand with other projects.

Perhaps removing these children from their parents at a very young age would help?

Perhaps instead of young offender units at the first sign of trouble, young kids should be taken off parents and sent to camps in the Highlands or in the Hebrides, and properly educated?

Perhaps parents who have children taken off them should be sterilised?

Breaking the link between rank rotten parents is the only way to ease this problem i think - because you can guarentee that these girls will have bairns of their own pretty soon, and the whole cycle will start again.....

[Judas Iscariot]

Should admin not change the tread title to; Girl 14 0 - Teenage Rogues 3 :confused:



Aye, so whats the thread title got to do wi Admin ..?

Eh to change the thread title no? :rolleyes:

[Phil D. Rolls]

It seems as always that there is an element of truth in both sides of this debate.

I would bet good money that the children who did this are all victims of terrible abuse themselves, beaten, perhaps molested, certainly neglected and exposed to all kind of harsh realities that no child should be - this is not their fault, it is the fault of the ****my parents who cant bring up children without violence, who dont work, who are addcits, who cant communicate without shouting, who have nothing but dysfunctional relationaships themselves and who have probably been sexually abused themselves.

However, while it is not the kids fault they have been turned into feral little animals, equally it is not my fault, your fault, or the girl who got attacked's fault. In my opinion justice should be there to protect the decent majority. In that sense, who can argue that society without the children who did this would be a better, safer place?

Yes the kids are victims of abuse, but that does not excuse what they did .

While i agree with the instinct to clamp down hard on crime, socieities that do this still have those problems. I do beleive however that it could work if done hand in hand with other projects.

Perhaps removing these children from their parents at a very young age would help?

Perhaps instead of young offender units at the first sign of trouble, young kids should be taken off parents and sent to camps in the Highlands or in the Hebrides, and properly educated?

Perhaps parents who have children taken off them should be sterilised?

Breaking the link between rank rotten parents is the only way to ease this problem i think - because you can guarentee that these girls will have bairns of their own pretty soon, and the whole cycle will start again.....

One of the things I am starting to realise is that there is a difficult balancing act between fairness to the offenders, who have probably never had a chance, as you say.

On the other hand there is also a need for people who behave themselves to see justice done, other kids have harrowing upbringings and yet are able to rise above it.

Maybe the start of things is to try and bring the burgeoning underclass back into mainstream society (which kind of contradicts my free will "argument").

[MSK]

Eh to change the thread title no? :rolleyes:No !! ..your reference to Toaods thread ..his thread title ..not Admins...i assume you thought we changed the thread title ..:rolleyes:

We could have ..we should have but it was easier just to close the thread ..

Aye ..:rolleyes:

[Judas Iscariot]

No !! ..your reference to Toaods thread ..his thread title ..not Admins...i assume you thought we changed the thread title ..:rolleyes:

We could have ..we should have but it was easier just to close the thread ..

Aye ..:rolleyes:

No, i knew that was his own choice of thread title..

:rolleyes:

[MSK]

No, i knew that was his own choice of thread title..

:rolleyes:Ok ..im lost ..in fact ..i was lost at the start ...perhaps rather than both spoil this thread you may respond better in the pm ive sent you ...oh aye ..:rolleyes:

[IndieHibby]

One of the things I am starting to realise is that there is a difficult balancing act between fairness to the offenders, who have probably never had a chance, as you say.

On the other hand there is also a need for people who behave themselves to see justice done, other kids have harrowing upbringings and yet are able to rise above it.

Maybe the start of things is to try and bring the burgeoning underclass back into mainstream society (which kind of contradicts my free will "argument").

Since I started teaching, I have found myself in the same quandry you find yourself in here, FR, on many occasions:

How do I reconcile my hatred for state interference in the family, with my almost concrete conviction that some people are not fit to be parents and should a) be prevented from having children and/or b) should have their kids taken away from them and raised with foster/adopted parents?

It's a hum-dinger....

[Phil D. Rolls]

Since I started teaching, I have found myself in the same quandry you find yourself in here, FH, on many occasion:

How do I reconcile my hatred for state interference in the family, with my almost concrete conviction that some people are not fit to be parents and should a) be prevented from having children and/or b) should have their kids taken away from them and raised with foster/adopted parents?

It's a hum-dinger....

That's the dilemma. As we know, that type of intervention wasn't particularly succesful in the past. All that happened was they went from a situation where there was no love and they were abused at home, to the same situation in an institution.

To me, the problem is that, although we have always had an underclass, since Thatcher it has grown bigger. Social mobility has gone two ways, those who could moved from the working class to the middle (employed) class, those who couldn't have drifted down the way.

In the past there was a community of decency around those kids who weren't being treated right. Their own family might have been clueless, but there were others that kept them in check.

Now the schemes are like the American inner cities after the white flight of the 60s and 70s. People have been left to their own devices and more and more kids are growing up without any moral code or sense of right and wrong.

How do you turn that round?

[Dashing Bob S]

That's the dilemma. As we know, that type of intervention wasn't particularly succesful in the past. All that happened was they went from a situation where there was no love and they were abused at home, to the same situation in an institution.

To me, the problem is that, although we have always had an underclass, since Thatcher it has grown bigger. Social mobility has gone two ways, those who could moved from the working class to the middle (employed) class, those who couldn't have drifted down the way.

In the past there was a community of decency around those kids who weren't being treated right. Their own family might have been clueless, but there were others that kept them in check.

Now the schemes are like the American inner cities after the white flight of the 60s and 70s. People have been left to their own devices and more and more kids are growing up without any moral code or sense of right and wrong.

How do you turn that round?

I can't see how it can happen as we seem to have lost the idea of a full employment economy. I don't think people have got any worse, but they just have more time on their hands. If people worked 9-5 as in bygone days, they would have a bit of money in their pockets and less time to get up to mischief. Until we can get back to the concept of full-time, full employment, then other measures; education, environment, housing, health etc, while worthy, are only going to have a limited impact.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I can't see how it can happen as we seem to have lost the idea of a full employment economy. I don't think people have got any worse, but they just have more time on their hands. If people worked 9-5 as in bygone days, they would have a bit of money in their pockets and less time to get up to mischief. Until we can get back to the concept of full-time, full employment, then other measures; education, environment, housing, health etc, while worthy, are only going to have a limited impact.

I've always felt that in the old days in an area like Granton for example, people all worked in the same place. That acted as a social control, in that if you misbehaved outside work, you had the humiliation of facing people you saw every day when you were at work.

The other thing is, council housing used to be allocated dependent on how good a citizen you were. You had to be "the right sort of person" to get one. This doesn't happen any more.

Now people have nothing to get up for, and nothing to live up to. Doors are closed and people lose themselves in wine, benzos and hash. It's a direct result of laissez faire Thatcherism - rather than waste time building and maintaining a society, it's a lot easier to herd people into ghettos and control them with drugs.

[IndieHibby]

I've always felt that in the old days in an area like Granton for example, people all worked in the same place. That acted as a social control, in that if you misbehaved outside work, you had the humiliation of facing people you saw every day when you were at work.

The other thing is, council housing used to be allocated dependent on how good a citizen you were. You had to be "the right sort of person" to get one. This doesn't happen any more.

Now people have nothing to get up for, and nothing to live up to. Doors are closed and people lose themselves in wine, benzos and hash. It's a direct result of laissez faire Thatcherism - rather than waste time building and maintaining a society, it's a lot easier to herd people into ghettos and control them with drugs.

I find the constant reference to "Thatcherism" a little tiring. Wasn't the UK on the brink of economic meltdown in the 70's? Is it not the case that many of the changes she made were necessary evils designed to bring us back from the brink?

From what I can gather, most of the growth since the last recession (91-95, not 01-03) was largely made possible by the labour market reforms she made.

Of course, I could be wrong...:devil:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I find the constant reference to "Thatcherism" a little tiring. Wasn't the UK on the brink of economic meltdown in the 70's? Is it not the case that many of the changes she made were necessary evils designed to bring us back from the brink?

From what I can gather, most of the growth since the last recession (91-95, not 01-03) was largely made possible by the labour market reforms she made.

Of course, I could be wrong...:devil:

I'm being non judgemental in my use of the term. Margaret Thatcher was very much an advocate of the free market, self help, and famously denied the existence of society.

I think that what we see in the schemes now is a direct consequence of her ethos. I said in the previous post that what we have seen is similair to the white flight in the states, those who can leave the schemes have, those that are too sick, too thick or too weak are left to fed for themselves.

Regardless of whether Thatcher was what Britain needed in the 70s, it is easy to trace the way society changed to the time of her descent to earth. Her politics were revolutionary and aimed at making changes to the way people live.

Britain was on is *rse in the 70s, people forget we were still paying for WW2, and had a creaking infrastructure. Who is to say how Labour would have got on with the oil revenue that Thatcher was able to bribe her supporters with?

They never got the chance. How could they, it is the strongest who take the wealth - and the rich made sure that money was going in their trouser pocket rather than rebuilding the country.

[IndieHibby]

I'm being non judgemental in my use of the term. Margaret Thatcher was very much an advocate of the free market, self help, and famously denied the existence of society.

I think that what we see in the schemes now is a direct consequence of her ethos. I said in the previous post that what we have seen is similair to the white flight in the states, those who can leave the schemes have, those that are too sick, too thick or too weak are left to fed for themselves.

Regardless of whether Thatcher was what Britain needed in the 70s, it is easy to trace the way society changed to the time of her descent to earth. Her politics were revolutionary and aimed at making changes to the way people live.

Britain was on is *rse in the 70s, people forget we were still paying for WW2, and had a creaking infrastructure. Who is to say how Labour would have got on with the oil revenue that Thatcher was able to bribe her supporters with?

They never got the chance. How could they, it is the strongest who take the wealth - and the rich made sure that money was going in their trouser pocket rather than rebuilding the country.

What examples can you give of that (genuine question)?

[CropleyWasGod]

What examples can you give of that (genuine question)?

Almost every time an election was coming up, the preceding Budget would be based on tax cuts for individuals and businesses. It was cynical, but it worked.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What examples can you give of that (genuine question)?

Taxation and labour laws, selling off publicly owned industries for next to nothing.