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sauzee_4
01-09-2009, 05:40 PM
Just been thinking about this over the past few days. A simple suggestion, not thought this through that much.

but if the card was changed from yellow to red, surely players wouldn't risk it.

An additional punishment could be the ref watches the game after and hands out a one match ban if he's missed one.

What does everyone think?

At the moment I think players are willing to risk getting caught because it's only a booking, changing the punishment would stop that

PC Stamp
01-09-2009, 05:45 PM
Just been thinking about this over the past few days. A simple suggestion, not thought this through that much.

but if the card was changed from yellow to red, surely players wouldn't risk it.

An additional punishment could be the ref watches the game after and hands out a one match ban if he's missed one.

What does everyone think?

At the moment I think players are willing to risk getting caught because it's only a booking, changing the punishment would stop that

Craig Paterson said something similar on Sunday post game. He's certainly in favour of a red card if the dive is in the penalty area. His point was that if a defender or a keeper makes a challenge in the box and gives away a penalty, there's a better than average chance of them also getting a red card. That should be evened up that if a player is deemed to have dived in the penalty area then he too should be red carded. He reckons it's then a far bigger gamble for an attacking player to take. Possible penalty yes, but a possible red card if a dive is recognised as such. Reckons it wouldn't take too many red cards being shown for players to realise it's too big a risk.

lapsedhibee
01-09-2009, 05:45 PM
Just been thinking about this over the past few days. A simple suggestion, not thought this through that much.

but if the card was changed from yellow to red, surely players wouldn't risk it.

An additional punishment could be the ref watches the game after and hands out a one match ban if he's missed one

What does everyone think?

At the moment I think players are willing to risk getting caught because it's only a booking, changing the punishment would stop that

Think the punishment for the missed offence has probably now been established as a two-match ban.

TheBall'sRound
01-09-2009, 05:46 PM
Just been thinking about this over the past few days. A simple suggestion, not thought this through that much.

but if the card was changed from yellow to red, surely players wouldn't risk it.

An additional punishment could be the ref watches the game after and hands out a one match ban if he's missed one.

What does everyone think?

At the moment I think players are willing to risk getting caught because it's only a booking, changing the punishment would stop that

I agree with the retrospective punishment though as it would be the Scottish refs doing the punishing I wouldn't expect there to be too many suspensions flying about especially when it comes to the sharp end of the season or just before old firm games.

As for a straight red - the problem is the players are simulating which means there usually is a leg to jump over or an opportunity which they are exploiting. It is really easy to miss it (which is obvious) but it's also easy to accuse someone of diving when there was genuine contact. Again, if the league is decided because a ref wrongly sends off a "diver" there would be hell to pay.

The only way to go when punishing players during the game is to use video evidence. I really don't see that happening any time soon so unless we get an independent (and anonymous) panel who hand out suspensions after the games are played, I'm afraid we're stuck with the situation we have.

Woody1985
01-09-2009, 05:55 PM
I agree with the retrospective punishment though as it would be the Scottish refs doing the punishing I wouldn't expect there to be too many suspensions flying about especially when it comes to the sharp end of the season or just before old firm games.

As for a straight red - the problem is the players are simulating which means there usually is a leg to jump over or an opportunity which they are exploiting. It is really easy to miss it (which is obvious) but it's also easy to accuse someone of diving when there was genuine contact. Again, if the league is decided because a ref wrongly sends off a "diver" there would be hell to pay.

The only way to go when punishing players during the game is to use video evidence. I really don't see that happening any time soon so unless we get an independent (and anonymous) panel who hand out suspensions after the games are played, I'm afraid we're stuck with the situation we have.

I agree that the only way you could introduce a red card is if video evidence is used. Lets face it, McDonald made a great decision and to see the dive was excellent refereeing, I'm willing to bet we'll not see another decision as good as that as far as diving goes this season.

I disagree about the anonymous panel as that makes them just as likely to make decisions based on personal gain. Can you imagine before a Hibs / Hearts derby if Riordan had taken a tumble, we have a couple out injured and an anonymous panel decides that he should be suspended. The unknown person has the opportunity to bet on a game with less risk.

Al_Bundy
01-09-2009, 06:43 PM
Uefa are bringing in a 5th and 6th official to stand by the goal in the Europa Cup this season to help see if the ball actually crosses the line and after the Eduardo dive it was said on sky sports news that this would help with those kind of decisions also.

I will use the eduardo dive as an eg; How many times were those watching the game on TV able to see the dive in a replay before the penalty was taken? Surely it would be so much easier to have just a 5th official with the capabilities to see replays of incidents, then he would make the decision rather than the ref who may not have had the best of views. IMO i dont think a stoppage of maybe 1 or 2 minutes wont disrupt the flow of the game.

If it is a blatent dive then it should be a game ban and a fine which should be a percentage of what the players basic monthly wage is.

The only problem is that there is so many grey areas in what people class as a dive, simulation etc.

lapsedhibee
01-09-2009, 07:29 PM
The only problem is that there is so many grey areas in what people class as a dive, simulation etc.

Too true. Wasn't it Lambert who claimed that he went down in the box because he 'thought' he had been touched? :crazy:

Celtc: cheatng snce 1888.

Hibee_Rab
01-09-2009, 10:23 PM
I think too many red cards are given out acutally, it should be reduced not increased. It's not great for the fans when one team gets a red and starts camping in their own half, or if it changes the balance of play. We go to watch 11 v 11 matches

greenlex
01-09-2009, 10:35 PM
Red card for me. The player then has the decision to make.dive or not. If the ref calls it wrong then videoevidence. can be used in the appeal against the red if the player has been hard done by. You can't appeal a yellow which is the current punishment. It would have been interesting to hear the Celtic appeal for Sunday.
The emphasis should be on stamping out cheating. If we break a few eggs in the process then so be it.

mim
01-09-2009, 11:06 PM
If a player dives to con the referree into awarding a penalty or getting a defender sent off for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity (or both), the punishment should be a red card.

In a McGeadie type case, a yellow would be sufficient.

There are different consequences to successful cheating, depending on how and where it happens, and the punishment for unsuccessful cheating should reflect that.

lapsedhibee
02-09-2009, 07:13 AM
If a player dives to con the referree into awarding a penalty or getting a defender sent off for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity (or both), the punishment should be a red card.

In a McGeadie type case, a yellow would be sufficient.

There are different consequences to successful cheating, depending on how and where it happens, and the punishment for unsuccessful cheating should reflect that.

BUT the consequence of diving to get a player sent off for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity and diving near the halfway line to get a player who happens to have already been booked booked is exactly the same. Your system would entail different punishments for the same consequence. Mibbe fairer to have a single punishment for a single act of cheating.

bobbyhibs1983
02-09-2009, 11:33 AM
Red card for me. The player then has the decision to make.dive or not. If the ref calls it wrong then videoevidence. can be used in the appeal against the red if the player has been hard done by. You can't appeal a yellow which is the current punishment. It would have been interesting to hear the Celtic appeal for Sunday.
The emphasis should be on stamping out cheating. If we break a few eggs in the process then so be it.



agree 100%:top marks


bottem line is noone wants to see people cheating, remeber footballers are meant to be role models for young boys and young girls, and if they see there role model cheating, witch is what a dive is, they will think "ok my fav player dived thats ok" and well i think we should clamp down on it


Another idea could be a huge fine prehaps 50k to the club of somone who has dived?

if a club has 3 players in a season who have dived then then the fine is a 1 million.
simple

mim
02-09-2009, 11:57 AM
BUT the consequence of diving to get a player sent off for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity and diving near the halfway line to get a player who happens to have already been booked booked is exactly the same. Your system would entail different punishments for the same consequence. Mibbe fairer to have a single punishment for a single act of cheating.

I don't think that has really got anything to do with it.
A player who handles the ball will get a yellow card and, if he's already been booked, he will be sent off. That is the rule - 2 yellows equals a red.

Always giving a red for 'cheating' makes it simpler, but I don't think the punishment fits the crime. Winning a penalty and/or getting an opposition player sent off by cheating is far more significant than trying to win a free kick somewhere in the middle of the park. I don't think these crimes are equal and I don't think the punishments should be equal.

It's easy to say that cheating is cheating, but I think the possible consequences of the cheating should be reflected in the punishment.

Does anyone really think that McGeady's attempt to hurdle a tackle that never came was just the same as Eduardo's effort? I certainly don't.

While you can never tell what's in a player's mind, the referree certainly knows the consequences of accepting that the foul is genuine. He therefore has the ability to distinguish between the punishments and I believe he should have that power.

lapsedhibee
02-09-2009, 12:23 PM
Does anyone really think that McGeady's attempt to hurdle a tackle that never came was just the same as Eduardo's effort? I certainly don't.
No two things are ever exactly the same, but these fine distinctions that you (and Gordon Smith) are making between Eduardo and McGeady merely serve to blur the issue about stamping out diving. You just get whole debates about how some types of cheating are more or less ok than other types of cheating. If the authorities are serious about getting rid of diving, they need to man up and come down on McGeady-diving just as hard as any other diving, imo. Tough on McGeady to be on the telly all over Europe as a cheater for doing nothing more than tons of other players do week in week out - and not all of them play for Celtc, though it sometimes seems that way - but the process has to start biting somewhere, sometime. As McGeady is a scrote, it might as well be with him. For me, two-game ban rather than one, irrespective of whether the ref caught him at it at the time or not.

sauzee_4
02-09-2009, 07:58 PM
Does anyone really think that McGeady's attempt to hurdle a tackle that never came was just the same as Eduardo's effort? I certainly don't.


When you hurdle a tackle though you can usually land on your feet. McGeady hit the ball too far in front of him, saw he couldny get it, so fell down. I'd watch it again if I were you.

To be a good dribbler you need good balance, and I believe he's a good dribbler. It would not be difficult for him to carry on running all he's done is moved slightly to the side to "hurdle the tackle". The guy cheated

Secondly I think Gordon's comments lately have strengthened my view on this. "Eduardo's got Arsenal into the champions league so it was worth a 2 match ban" What sort of message is that sending out?:confused:

The punishment has to be more severe.