Al Megrahi Released

[NYHibby]

Some 'informed' Americans may have thought Scotland was a region of England.

From your prospective you probably don't see how you're over stating the importance of this. The relationship between Scotland and England politically is really complex and different from what we have in America. There is no way that you can expect an average American school to teach the nuances between the two. Thinking Scotland is a region of England is arguably more correct than thinking Scotland and England are two separate "american-style" states and that Edinburgh and London are analogous to Albany and Harrisburg.



Looking at the bigger picture, one thing this matter has shown the World is that Scotland is country in it's own right and makes it's own decisions
Despite any sympathies I may have towards your nationalism, we both know this isn't true. Scotland hasn't been a country in its own right for centuries. If anything, this whole thing has shown how its decisions are dictated by other nations.

[NYHibby]

Just in case I haven't insulted everyone, the British Consulate in Los Angeles is probably the most incompetent government agency I have ever dealt with.:wink:

[hibsbollah]

Someone a couple days ago asked what my views are. Seeing where my paychecks are going to be coming from next month, I need be careful what I say.

On the one hand, the guy was convicted by a Scottish court so any discussion if he is really guilty is mute in terms of his release. If Scottish law says that you have the "right" to be release when you are terminally ill, then it was fair that he was released. It also not like he was pardoned. He is going to die as a convicted murderer.

On the other hand, people are completely justified in being outraged, be then Scottish or American. A couple students from my alma mater died in the bombing returning home after studying in the UK. Although it was way before my time, I would be outraged if some of my friends died in a similar incident. Heck, I flew to NYC from Heathrow on the anniversary of the bombing. I don't see how you can argue that just because he was tried in an Scottish court that American victims shouldn't have their justice or that their relative shouldn't seek justice.

A couple posts on this page have been completely asinine. Except for a couple of people on this site, no one here has any actual basis for making any claim about how ignorant Americans are or are not. You're talking just as much out of your asses as the Americans who are promoting a boycott of Scotland. Spewing your anti-American stereotypes adds nothing and just discredits any valid point you could have raised.

You have to remember that I'm actually choosing to live in Scotland & didn't just happen to be born here by chance, but you have to be realistic. By population, Scotland would be the 22nd largest US state. How many Scottish people know where similarly populated places like Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Colorado are? By the logic being used by some poster here, it would be ok if Minnesota pissed off Scotland just so they would know that they aren't part of Wisconsin. The point I'm trying to make is that justifying the decision to release Megrahi by claiming that the notoriety gain is good leads you down a dangerous path. This is the path that takes you to terrorism yourself.

A very good post:agree: Probably my closest friend is American, as are a few other good (and intelligent) US mates who are a long way from the stereotype sometimes used. Add the massive contribution towards literature, film, TV and music and personally theres few countries I have so much respect for. This is why it yanks my chain so much when any criticism of US foreign policy, or the US Government, leads to the 'anti-American' jibe being hurled around by some people. In my case, nothing could be further from the truth.

Oh, by the way, its 'paycheque'. :wink:

[steakbake]

Just in case I haven't insulted everyone, the British Consulate in Los Angeles is probably the most incompetent government agency I have ever dealt with.:wink:

Without a doubt. They are incredible. I have no idea what they do all day but whatever it is, it aint their day job.

If I was in the diplomatic corps, that is where I would like to be placed. From the outside looking in, I suspect there's a lot of people having a lot of fun and pretending to be diplomatic staff.

[New Corrie]

We all know that power corrupts, but the more worrying thing about power is that it gives the Macaskills of this world a platform. I don't think I have ever come accross someone who likes the sound of his own voice as much as he does. The man is a total and complete fud, he is just flexing his muscles like some pathetic Bowloing Club Commitee member....it is so embarrassing, he uses the word "compassion" yet shows none whatsoever for the victims.

I know folks who are quite high up in the "English Hating Party" and not one of them has a good word to say about him....they all think he's a fud.

[JimBHibees]

We all know that power corrupts, but the more worrying thing about power is that it gives the Macaskills of this world a platform. I don't think I have ever come accross someone who likes the sound of his own voice as much as he does. The man is a total and complete fud, he is just flexing his muscles like some pathetic Bowloing Club Commitee member....it is so embarrassing, he uses the word "compassion" yet shows none whatsoever for the victims.

I know folks who are quite high up in the "English Hating Party" and not one of them has a good word to say about him....they all think he's a fud.

Of course they do. Dear oh dear what a crock that is. We'd be better off with the McLetchie's of this world right enough. Taxi's for McLetchie. :greengrin

[New Corrie]

Of course they do. Dear oh dear what a crock that is. We'd be better off with the McLetchie's of this world right enough. Taxi's for McLetchie. :greengrin


Well i'm only quoting the politically active "English haters" that I know. Fud Macaskill is not popular amongst them and quite rightly so. I can't believe I am the only Scot who was mortified by his performance.


As for McLetchie, well at least he wouldn't be emptying our prisons, but of course you Nats know best....a fuds charter!

[--------]

We all know that power corrupts, but the more worrying thing about power is that it gives the Macaskills of this world a platform. I don't think I have ever come accross someone who likes the sound of his own voice as much as he does. The man is a total and complete fud, he is just flexing his muscles like some pathetic Bowloing Club Commitee member....it is so embarrassing, he uses the word "compassion" yet shows none whatsoever for the victims.

I know folks who are quite high up in the "English Hating Party" and not one of them has a good word to say about him....they all think he's a fud.

Power corrupts "the MacAskills of this world", but not the McLetchies or the Grays or the Tavish Scotts? How much was involved in McLetchie's wee expenses problem?

The one that led to his resignation as Tory leader? :rolleyes:

BTW - you're a pretty example of a "hating" person yourself on the evidence of that post .... :devil:




..... the massive contribution towards literature, film, TV and music and personally theres few countries I have so much respect for. This is why it yanks my chain so much when any criticism of US foreign policy, or the US Government, leads to the 'anti-American' jibe being hurled around by some people. In my case, nothing could be further from the truth.



100% agree. My feelings exactly.

[JimBHibees]

Well i'm only quoting the politically active "English haters" that I know. Fud Macaskill is not popular amongst them and quite rightly so. I can't believe I am the only Scot who was mortified by his performance.


As for McLetchie, well at least he wouldn't be emptying our prisons, but of course you Nats know best....a fuds charter!

Wouldnt consider myself a Nat to be honest, however your English hater line is as lame as it gets.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:top marks Caught them at it there mate. The Holy Ground mob not only not quoting the Guardian, but quoting the DM :faf::faf: Are they really losing the argument that badly already. Presumably the DM article goes on to lay the blame for Lockerbie on asylum seekers and illegal immigrants?

And BTW, Fidelma Cooke, journalism, same sentence:faf:

What next? Orla Guerin - the unbiased voice of Middle East coverage?:bitchy:

Wee bit wide of the mark there, I think the Daily Mail would be more concerned about what his realease would do to house prices, whereas the Daily Express would be blaming Prince Philip for hiring Al Megrahi.

Both absolute rags of papers, and fairs fair -they can't be part time *rseholes. Poor show quoting from those Hitler supporting turds.

[ArabHibee]

Good thread. Have enjoyed the 'debate' and learned some interesting facts. :thumbsup:

[Killiehibbie]

Wee bit wide of the mark there, I think the Daily Mail would be more concerned about what his realease would do to house prices, whereas the Daily Express would be blaming Prince Philip for hiring Al Megrahi.

Both absolute rags of papers, and fairs fair -they can't be part time *rseholes. Poor show quoting from those Hitler supporting turds.

I find it very strange that some people will quote from papers that they normally would find it very difficult to believe the racing results in.

[The Harp Awakes]

[QUOTE=FalkirkHibee;2150059]I am not reacting to any media hype. I am capable of reaching my own conclusions/opinions on subjects without getting them from the press.

You're right, as time moves on, people's views will die down. But that happens in nearly every controversial story, except with those who are personally attached to the incident.

As far as America is concerned, I'm not interested in what they think. I don't disagree with the release just because that's what America says. I disagree with it because I don't believe a convicted mass murderer should ever be released from prison.

I totally agree that we should be making our own decisions, I just happen to disagree with the decision that we have taken.

Again, I think some people are happy that we have released Megrahi just because it has angered America and subsequently given us a bit of notoriety around the world. Judging by your post, you seem to think it's a good idea partly because Americans will now know that we are a country in our own right and not just a little region of England.

I really can't fathom that logic out. Apart from anything else, it won't change anything in that regard. Many Americans are so insular that they haven't the first idea about things that happen outwith the USA. Many of them will also continue to refer to the UK as "England".

As for the SNP, if this is an indication of their policies in general, I hope this decision signals the end for them.



No-one on here, who has voiced their opposition to Megrahi's release, has done so because they want to appease the USA. I certainly didn't take the US stance into consideration when giving my opinion on the matter.

I agree entirely that we should make our own decisions. I just happen to believe that this decision of ours is completely wrong.[/B]





Once Megrahi dies, I think the views of many of those who were against his release may change their opinion. At the moment everyone sees a free man who is a convicted mass murderer, rather than a dead man who cannot be punished any more.

The point I made about Scotland being noticed for the first time by Americans and others in the World through coverage of the affair, is based on a belief that Scotland is presently being short-changed through being part of a Union with a country 10 times bigger than us in terms of population. IMHO, Scotland's identity is being stifled by our much larger neighbour and I don't think we sell our coutry as well as we could, as if we were independent. I agree there are advantages to being part of the Union, I just believe that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

For or against the decision, the World media coverage of it has increased people's awareness of Scotland and it's ability to make its own decisions, independent of the United Kingdom Government.

[Phil D. Rolls]

A very good post:agree: Probably my closest friend is American, as are a few other good (and intelligent) US mates who are a long way from the stereotype sometimes used. Add the massive contribution towards literature, film, TV and music and personally theres few countries I have so much respect for. This is why it yanks my chain so much when any criticism of US foreign policy, or the US Government, leads to the 'anti-American' jibe being hurled around by some people. In my case, nothing could be further from the truth.

Oh, by the way, its 'paycheque'. :wink:

I would have thought pay cheque would be the closest we can get to the American "paycheck". Anyone care to advance on that?:greengrin


I find it very strange that some people will quote from papers that they normally would find it very difficult to believe the racing results in.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The point I made about Scotland being noticed for the first time by Americans and others in the World through coverage of the affair, is based on a belief that Scotland is presently being short-changed through being part of a Union with a country 10 times bigger than us in terms of population. IMHO, Scotland's identity is being stifled by our much larger neighbour and I don't think we sell our coutry as well as we could, as if we were independent. I agree there are advantages to being part of the Union, I just believe that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

For or against the decision, the World media coverage of it has increased people's awareness of Scotland and it's ability to make its own decisions, independent of the United Kingdom Government.

I think we do a very good job of running ourselves down without their help. Just look at the number of Uncle Toms that have jumped out of the cupboard since the announcement. The likes of Wee Jack Quisling (youse dae whit yir telt), and his cohorts in Labour, make us look much sillier than anything MacAskill did.

[BEEJ]

Latecomer to this thread :greengrin

I think the point about compassionate grounds is worth the debate though - it's the ostensible reason for Megrahi's release. Would the defenders of it feel the same way about an Ian Brady or Myra Hindley (to pick two non-contentious examples :greengrin)?

I think that compassion should be unconditional - if we claim it we extend it to all, whether "dodgily-convicted victims of geopolitics" (cf. Megrahi), or proven-beyond-a-doubt child murderers, multiple rapists etc.

Do we? If not, where does the line get drawn?
:top marks :agree:

I'm a latecomer to this thread too; but you have summarised there exactly my sentiments on the subject.

[ancient hibee]

It's interesting this compassion in Scots Law thread isn't it particularly when the Crown-the Scottish Prosecution Service- was appealing against the sentence because it was too short.

[Betty Boop]

Latecomer to this thread :greengrin

I'm far from being a natural SNP supporter and I've been very critical of their administration on occasion but I admire McAskill's decision for what, on the surface, appears to be playing a straight bat in the face of weighty opposition.

Of course it's unlikely that it was any such thing. It's also unlikely that any of us have a clue about all the machinations going on in the background around this. My guess would be oodles of realpolitik and lots of adjustments and shifts to accommodate the differing agendas and perhaps more importantly, the perception of differing agendas. Ultimately leading to a resolution that may or may not be ideal but almost certainly is a bit of a fudge.

I think the point about compassionate grounds is worth the debate though - it's the ostensible reason for Megrahi's release. Would the defenders of it feel the same way about an Ian Brady or Myra Hindley (to pick two non-contentious examples :greengrin)?

I think I think that compassion should be unconditional - if we claim it we extend it to all, whether "dodgily-convicted victims of geopolitics" (cf. Megrahi), or proven-beyond-a-doubt child murderers, multiple rapists etc.

Do we? If not, where does the line get drawn?
Jim Wallace released a child killer on compassionate grounds when he was Justice Minister.

[hibsbollah]

I would have thought pay cheque would be the closest we can get to the American "paycheck". Anyone care to advance on that?:greengrin




pesky space bar:greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

pesky space bar:greengrin

spacebar? :devil:

[RyeSloan]

Good thread and a lot of solid argument both ways.

To me tho the clear story here is that he was released simply to stop the much delayed appeal...it is clear to anyone who has read up on this trial be that the UN's observer comments or indeed the rather interesting investigation by Paul Foot that the trial was a sham, the conviction very shaky to say the least and that no one in the US or the UK had the stomach for the truth to come out...Its clear to me that the people who carried out this attrocity were never brought to justice and that no western governement involved has the spine to admit that rather than being tough on terror they were happy to play politics with the whole sorry story.

As for the larger question of release for murderers near death while incarcerated.....while the desire to seek revenge and justice runs strong I'm still somehow relieved that the law in our country can still show that it can deliver compassion to humans no matter what they have done, and dare I say it even if in a lot of peoples minds they don't deserve any.

[JimBHibees]

Good thread and a lot of solid argument both ways.

To me tho the clear story here is that he was released simply to stop the much delayed appeal...it is clear to anyone who has read up on this trial be that the UN's observer comments or indeed the rather interesting investigation by Paul Foot that the trial was a sham, the conviction very shaky to say the least and that no one in the US or the UK had the stomach for the truth to come out...Its clear to me that the people who carried out this attrocity were never brought to justice and that no western governement involved has the spine to admit that rather than being tough on terror they were happy to play politics with the whole sorry story.

As for the larger question of release for murderers near death while incarcerated.....while the desire to seek revenge and justice runs strong I'm still somehow relieved that the law in our country can still show that it can deliver compassion to humans no matter what they have done, and dare I say it even if in a lot of peoples minds they don't deserve any.

Agree with all of that. Very good post.

[Betty Boop]

Jack Straw admits oil deals played a big part In Al-Megrahi's release. :rolleyes:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/topstories/Oil-behind-Megrahi-deal-admits.5620546.jp

[--------]

Superb article by Ian Bell in The Herald today.

Says it all, really.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/features/d$isplay.var.2529225.0.Why_do_we_still_cling_to_my thical_link_with_US.php

"Britain is a small and diminishing corner of Washington's big picture. The US feels no particular sense of obligation to these islands.... There are fine words when nothing is at stake, but a swift response if Little Britain steps out of line.

People used to wonder why Blair was so utterly slavish. They do not even bother to ask the question of his successor....

As often as not, Britain's head of government enjoys the status in Washington of a senator from a backwater state, if that..... As for Lockerbie, we await the prime minister's defence of British sovereignty.

Meanwhile, ask a question: might we not cope free of America's embrace?

The US is a foreign country, and a peculiar one. Its God, its guns, its cultural myopia and its economic dogmas are alien and alienating. They form no basis for an export-import trade in ideas. Even at the level of basic logic, it is ridiculous to behave as though the interests of Britain and America are always and everywhere the same. Washington has never made that mistake.

The French, in any case, appeared to survive their time as cheese-eating pariahs with their usual equanimity: how come? We cling to the myth of a relationship that America, top to bottom, regards as a quaint fantasy. Small wonder we earn contempt...."

He also points out that Obama has no reason to love us or even care about us. "Obama is the son of a Kenyan who opposed British colonialism. This president has none of his predecessor's comical nostalgia for Churchillian romance. He made it clear while campaigning, in fact, that he regarded Germany as the paramount power on this side of the water, and Europe in general as his strategic partner. Britain's value is in ensuring that Nato appears to continue to function, with the legitimacy that the fiction confers on America's wars." The last sentence is particularly relevant to the Middle Eastern situation - WE were the allies that lent legitimacy to an illegal war fought in the interests of the USA, a war which has led to tens if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani deaths (collateral damage, right?) as well as the pointless deaths of hundreds of young British service men and women, and which has alienated us from a large part of the wider world.

So why on earth did we sell out our judiciary and legal system to the Yanquis to do their dirty work on Al Megrahi? Who, poor man, appears to be just about exactly as ill and close to death as Ken MacAskill's SPS medical authorities said he was.

[ancienthibby]

Superb article by Ian Bell in The Herald today.

Says it all, really.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/features/d$isplay.var.2529225.0.Why_do_we_still_cling_to_my thical_link_with_US.php

"Britain is a small and diminishing corner of Washington's big picture. The US feels no particular sense of obligation to these islands.... There are fine words when nothing is at stake, but a swift response if Little Britain steps out of line.

People used to wonder why Blair was so utterly slavish. They do not even bother to ask the question of his successor....

As often as not, Britain's head of government enjoys the status in Washington of a senator from a backwater state, if that..... As for Lockerbie, we await the prime minister's defence of British sovereignty.

Meanwhile, ask a question: might we not cope free of America's embrace?

The US is a foreign country, and a peculiar one. Its God, its guns, its cultural myopia and its economic dogmas are alien and alienating. They form no basis for an export-import trade in ideas. Even at the level of basic logic, it is ridiculous to behave as though the interests of Britain and America are always and everywhere the same. Washington has never made that mistake.

The French, in any case, appeared to survive their time as cheese-eating pariahs with their usual equanimity: how come? We cling to the myth of a relationship that America, top to bottom, regards as a quaint fantasy. Small wonder we earn contempt...."

He also points out that Obama has no reason to love us or even care about us. "Obama is the son of a Kenyan who opposed British colonialism. This president has none of his predecessor's comical nostalgia for Churchillian romance. He made it clear while campaigning, in fact, that he regarded Germany as the paramount power on this side of the water, and Europe in general as his strategic partner. Britain's value is in ensuring that Nato appears to continue to function, with the legitimacy that the fiction confers on America's wars." The last sentence is particularly relevant to the Middle Eastern situation - WE were the allies that lent legitimacy to an illegal war fought in the interests of the USA, a war which has led to tens if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani deaths (collateral damage, right?) as well as the pointless deaths of hundreds of young British service men and women, and which has alienated us from a large part of the wider world.

So why on earth did we sell out our judiciary and legal system to the Yanquis to do their dirty work on Al Megrahi? Who, poor man, appears to be just about exactly as ill and close to death as Ken MacAskill's SPS medical authorities said he was.

Interesting to see the swing in public opinion as reported in the Press last week with the country apparently 'split' 50/50 with respect to the 'correctness or otherwise' of K MacAskill's decision.

Given this swing, I would not be surprised that the next opinion poll will see a majority in favour of the decision!!

So where then for the 'weegreyman';
'Auntie Anna'; and 'TavishTheBeak'??:devil:

[--------]

Interesting to see the swing in public opinion as reported in the Press last week with the country apparently 'split' 50/50 with respect to the 'correctness or otherwise' of K MacAskill's decision.

Given this swing, I would not be surprised that the next opinion poll will see a majority in favour of the decision!!

So where then for the 'weegreyman';
'Auntie Anna'; and 'TavishTheBeak'??:devil:


Some of the news coming from Westminster makes Grey's posturing look dreadful. He's either not important enough for the Big Boys like Jack and Gordo and Tony to bother about keeping him in the loop, or he knew that Tony and Gordo had been talking to the Libyans, and still came out with all his self-righteous crud.